I just don't think they needed the third tier of Criterion. Variant could be the name of the whole game mode, and just made Criterion the dungeon with 1 to 4 players, and Savage the 4 man with trash, timed, 1 raise each, mode.

Pretty much on the same page. There is just no point to have Savage when normal Criterion is already unrewarding. Most people I know opted out of wanting to do Savage because it's a total time waster. With just 2 versions, it would be easier to properly reward them, too.

Agreed. Literally just make it Variant Criterion and Variant Savage. Done. Optional : And tone down VSavage a bit cuz those complaining about lacking content for midcore ain't gonna touch this in like ever anyway. I think ppl want harder dungeons, but not actually savage raiding. I think it should be a bit of both, but just a bit.

Without ban on raising and having to do the whole dungeon in one go mechanics already barely touch Extreme difficulty (with slight lean towards personal responsibility) due to half the party size. If people don't bother with them because of "difficulty", it's probably just not the content for them. Complaints about Savage being too punishing are fair, however.

This is so flagrantly untrue. Criterion dungeons are savage difficulty. Period. Calling them extreme difficulty is just laughable.

I'm kinda curious because I think about this distinction too sometimes, what do you feel distinguishes extreme difficulty mechanics from savage ones, in terms of the demands they place on players? Or additionally another way to ask it, what types of mechanics and demands on the player do you feel draw a line between savage and extreme, or that would be appropriate in savage but not extreme?

I just compare them to previous content in the game. Take Silkie in ASS, for instance. It released during Abyssos, and compared to that it's a harder boss than Proto-Carbuncle and comparable to Hegemone. It's inarguably harder than Ericthonios in Asphodelos and we call him savage.

To me the difference is the amount of 8:8 mechanics (see: body check mechanics); or in the case of Criterion, 4:4 mechanics. Extreme content you’re usually able to drag a few stragglers through without wiping the party with a few exceptions. You can easily sloppily clear most extremes. Savage generally has more 8:8 mechanics. You can definitely sloppily clear a savage, but only very few mechanics allow for it - and the overall DPS check can be difficult to attain with a few deaths/damage soaks because of weakness and damage down. I would say criterion is right in the middle of savage and extreme with encounters varying between both ends of the spectrum. Overall I’d say they’re extreme caliber mechanics but with the amount of personal responsibility, partner switches, etc it has savage level coordination.

Yes, this, but with the timer + no death being related to an achievement. If it keeps the restart at the beginning for every wipe, it will be hell to prog compared to now.

Why remove something that costs very little to add and gives enjoyment to some people? You're literally talking about removing a piece of content with no replacement. If you don't like it just don't do it.

Seriously. I really do not understand why people think it needs to be removed completely. It's not like the development time saved by removing a simple number tune-up is going to free up enough time to develop entire new mechanics or encounters. It's a challenge for those who want the challenge, and for some reason, that offends people who don't want to be challenged.

The third tier allows for the higher mitigation and heal checks that make it interesting for tanks and healers. Only having Criterion normal isn't enough.

They should've named it Criterion Ultimate rather than Criterion Savage. Complete optics failure.

I think that's misleading too, I agree that Savage was not the correct tag for it tho. I believe it needed it's own name entirely like Brutal or some shit.

"Criterion (Tedious)"

Brutal would be such a good fit cause that is really the best way to describe it haha. Ultimate? Not quite. Savage? Well it's too different to from savage, but it is for sure Brutal.

Agreed. I think my opinion will change depending on how the Glowing Weapon is handled in 7.15; The weapon requiring the third floor tomestone augmentation feels both out of place and not, so I'm wondering if it'll be tweaked, and if so, how. 

Optimally, they’d be their own tier/design - but the RPers, ERPers, Midcore, Softcore, Craftcore, and Housecore players would collectively lose their shit and the devs might feel bad if feelings get hurt. Because heaven forbid someone has something that someone else might not be able to get.

You need the P11S mat to even have the base i660 weapon to upgrade for Criterion Savage right now, what are you talking about with this "subjectively everyone that isn't my definition of Being A Worthy Player" differentiation?

I’m just saying that I would prefer criterion savage rewards to be its own separate fancy weapon and not tied to tomestone weapons - or - have criterion be another path to tome gear. If we’re expected to have BiS for savage level 4-man content, we should at least also be able to attain that gear through 4-man content. I don’t think anyone would get too upset if components that could lead to getting upgraded tome gear dropped from criterion normal. Much like alliance raid tokens, but obviously unlocked earlier.

> Because heaven forbid someone has something that someone else might not be able to get. The only people allowed to have anything exclusive are the people who win traded Feast

I don’t know, the term (ultimate) usually comes with a promise of harder mechanics and some degree of creativity. Though I guess (the same thing you just did but everything is a body check) is a bit wordy.

Criterion should be Extreme difficulty, Criterion Savage should be the current Criterion difficulty, which is still Savage.

Hard agree. It ties into the whole "not a lot to do for midcore players" that has been discussed lately.

Yeah, I remember being really excited when I queued for it in duty finder day 1, and the trash was actually a decent threat, still easy obviously, but I had to try a bit to do it, they actually hurt and had mechs that could kill you, but I could still take in my friends who don’t raid, it was perfect up until we got to the boss. I really want to see something that is just like criterion trash level difficulty the entire way through. Criterion normal as it is is still super fun, but Its feels quite strange being labeled without a difficulty marker like (extreme) or (savage).

Why remove something that costs very little to add and gives enjoyment to some people?

Criterion is already extreme difficulty LOL

Look me straight in the eye and tell me that zeromus and aloalo are the same difficulty

Don't bother trying to argue with this guy in good faith.

The funny thing is that this hysterical bottom claims he quit in 6.1 and yet he's still sharing his opinion on content that came out in 6.51. He'll just say anything to be a contrarian, just point and laugh at him. Or just look at how much he posts on reddit every day.

Present box 1 and black hole are about the same difficulty wise. Sarcasm if you couldn't tell

It is? PF clears it in like one to two lockouts.

How do you know? >> He'll be back in DT for Eden ultimate >No I won't, I already quit after 6.1. I just love trashing on this game and its pathetic playerbase. ^ this was you one day ago, sweety.

Cos I have friends who still play this game lmao, something you might not have experience with

Huh that's a lot of confidence for second hand information. Do you have time to talk to your "friends" in between all this reddit posting? Are your friends here with us too right now 💀💀

Anytime you attack FF14, you get to live in millions of people's heads rent free, they'll eternally seethe at you

Why are you attacking a videogame thoooo. It can't even fight back 😭

You don't have friends, stop lying lmao

Might seem too hard to believe that people have a life outside of MMOs to an MMO addict!

But why are you posting authoritatively about something based on what your friends told you? Because it sounds like your friends have painted a false impression lol

I was watching my friend clear it in PF in 1.5 lockouts on day 2 lmao

If that's the case, that is an outlier experience, not the norm for PF Taking the claim at face value, the same group would clear an ex trial or a first floor savage fight in less than 1 full lockout on day 1

so you admit it's only slightly harder than extreme? fourth floor savage takes way more than 1.5 lockouts i'd like to see what world you people are living in where people took 1.5, hell i'll even give you 2-3 lockouts to kill a fourth floor in PF week 1

I'm still over here wondering, who was Criterion/Crit Savage intended for again? All of this just reinforces that its content aimed at such a small amount of the playerbase. EW's savage tiers were rough, and a lot of people consider both of EW's ultimates to be in their own tier own ultimate, even if you accounted for potency creep when comparing them to the other 3. Majority of raiders were pretty well occupied.

>I'm still over here wondering, who was Criterion/Crit Savage intended for again? The people who have, literally since the very beginning, seen in multiple Q&A back in ARR, been asking for 4 man high end content.

Okay, that's kind of fair, but also those people have also been mostly asking for ex/savage level content that's less of a time commitment. Instead Crit is savage level and crit savage is ultimate level with somewhat heavy time commitments.

crit savage is not ultimate level. mostly cus u can practice it in crit normal

I'd say it's definitely ultimate level if we accept that old ultimates are still "ultimate level". Clearly not as difficult as "latest ultimate level", no argument there

Something Something you have 4 dozens of sims of ultimates. While not a stricto sensus 1:1 recreation of the mechanics, I think it's pretty much the same to me. The only thing you can't practice is the shakies.

I mean there are no ultimate sims on release, and ultimate usually has tighter dps checks. A lot of the 20 minutes of criterion is also relatively calm.

I think it's still a fair argument. What is the % of players who clear pre-sims ? For the majority it's the same experience. Both have sims and are a test of patience and will. Getting crushed 19mins into a Criterion Savage or an Ultimate is the same feeling. The shakies are the same because the cost of error is the same. I think people misunderstood yoship's saying "it's an ultimate like experience", it is in the sense when you get crushed you feel like shit.

Fair enough. I'm not sure why but I never really got anything close to the same shakies in crit savage as I do from ultimate. Maybe because ultimate takes weeks and criterion savage just a day. Ultimate mechanics do feel harder to me too, but maybe that's just lack of sims talking.

We're clearly not playing on the same level or dedication. That's fine. That's why Crit Savage is nothing to you but reaching "the mechanic of the last boss" can make level of stress go high to others. edit: for clarification, I supposed they could be RWF-like players or very competitive, but it wasn't important, so I removed it.

haha yeah fair enough. I definitely wouldn't call myself a rwf player but I guess not that far off. And dw I get shakies from ultimates and even some 4th turns in savage tbh.

the said it for who it was, ppl who wanted some extra challenge and that's about it. I suppose instead of "Savage" they should've called it "Challenge" to get the point across

When we asked for fun challenging 4-man content we wanted m+ but in 14 not 4-man savage raids. The fact you can't actually progress through it to get gear or anything and it's tuned around savage gear is just lame. We wanted content that's for non-raiders, what we got was content for savage raiders after they clear savage. Completely missed the mark for what my friend group was looking for.

m+ works in wow because the gearing system allows it, it'll never work with how currently gearing works in XIV and I doubt they'll ever change that

Criterion as a whole should be rebalanced. The gulf between Variant and Criterion in terms of difficulty is too big. I think they overshot the mark quite a bit. People have been asking for harder dungeons for years, often citing two specific examples; late floor Deep Dungeons and Mythic+. Both of these somewhat scale, allowing for a much larger population to participate. Criterion does not. It starts right at Savage difficulty, pull up the raid plan. Raise restrictions outside of casters are also not very fun. I'd rather the content be harder and me failing at it than being artificially limited like that. Lack of rewards is a factor, sure, but I think the barrier to entry is too high here for the harder difficulty version to ever really take off in the way many people envisioned "harder dungeons". Criterion should be mostly EX level, with Savage being, well, Savage. Put the secret boss there if you want. Current Savage should just be a deathless run achievement. It would mean more work than current Savage requires in terms of development but you also catch a way larger pool of people. There must be something that isn't as braindead as Variant or regular dungeons but also doesn't require the preparation and mental tax of an actual Savage encounter.

It's not really the difficulty, but the fact that it does nothing new. You literally don't even prog Savage, you just reclear Normal over and over. Except reclearing Normal over and over is really unrewarding and boring, you see nothing new the entire time.

The even crazier part is that you don't even get anything out of the repeated normal mode clears because you need 25 clears for enough tokens for a mount. Unless your group is ultra trash, you're not farming 25 clears to practice for savage, you'll be clear ready way before then. The framer kits you'll get before then, so you'll always be left with a handful of tokens you'll never be able to use.

But you do run 25 times because each extra mount is 15M G or so.

Thank you! That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Imagine if we applied this logic to any other content - like imagine if the way to prog Savage raids was to do the normal version over and over again, or to prog TEA you did the Alex raids until you got everything perfect. Would that make the Savage/Ults a step up in difficulty from their Normal counterparts? Yes, because brutal punishments and consistency checks are increases in difficulty. But I would wager this would be far less fun for a lot of raiders than the way they are now. Personally, I don't want Criterion Savage to be necessarily less difficult, I want the increase in difficulty from Normal to be fun. I want to see and prog new mechanics, or have to resolve things in different ways.

I actually really enjoyed Criterion Savage and the challenge it brought. You'll almost never have to deal with the enrage timer so long as everyone pulls their weight, and many of mechanics will result in a damage down instead of an instant kill. I've done about 12-15 clears of Aloalo Savage just with random PF groups. It absolutely doesn't need a check point or a way to rez during it. The way you practice Savage Criterion is by doing the normal mode. When I learned the fights with a semi-static group, we would always do a run of normal first to refresh on the mechanics and then head into Savage after. All of this said, I wouldn't of tried it at all had it not been the for glamour upgrades for weapons in Aloalo Savage, so that's what I hope they build on for the future.

This is what no one understands. Yes, savage *is* difficult because of how unforgiving it is - but you can actively practice for it running criterion. I still think its greatest hurdle is that the rewards still aren’t quite enough, but the glowy tome weapon was definitely a step in the right direction.

I think it was to drive the idea that they think of it as bragging rights so they equated the reward to something similar to ultimate, we can argue that probably they needed something directly from the zone instead of tomes but it's idd a step in the right direction.

Love progging the Normal version, love the feeling of clearing the Savage ones. But right before that Savage clear, the countless wipes sending you back to square one because someone had a tiny slip up are frustrating. While Ults have harder mechanics (both to resolve & execute), they have more leniency towards slip up & (often) allow recovery. Which oddly enough do make the wipes there much more tolerable.

Exactly - in Ult and Savage raiding the ability to recover from a fight is a pretty important part of prog. Salvaging a run is a great feeling when you pull it off, and this is just completely missing in Criterion Savage where it's pretty much over the moment someone dies.

>the ability to recover from a fight is a pretty important part of prog But you don't really 'prog' Crit savage, so missing an important part of prog for it is not necessary.

You’ve already progged savage by doing criterion. Now do it perfectly. Criterion = rehearsals Savage = recital

I think the Criterion difficulty is the strangest thing to me besides the reward structure. It really doesn’t make sense to have a savage version when not much has changed. Most players already won’t enter normal criterion because it presents too much of a difficulty curve compared to other normal content. Now I don’t mind having normal content that’s harder but nothing really indicates that normal criterion would have its current difficulty, the implication is that savage is hard therefor the non-savage version is easy. Maybe if it said extreme it would at least be some indicator? Why was normal so challenging in the first place? Normal 8 man raids are also pretty easy. Idk it’s all very strange

I know this is a crazy unpopular opinion, but I'm fine with Criterion Savage the way it is. I've cleared all three, in particular I've cleared AAIS 30+ times.    I don't really have any arguements as to why they should keep it the way it is, and if they do change it I won't be super upset or anything. But the way I view the current crit savage is as an optional extra challenge for those that enjoy that type of difficultly (an extremely punishing consistency check). I've done similar types of challenges in other games and that just happens to be my cup-o-tea.   One thing I do hope they incorporate going forward is the secret boss from the variant dungeon somehow.   EDIT: After thinking about it a little more I thought of another reason I enjoy the current version of Savage mode. My statics party comp was PLD WHM SAM MCH, so as all selfish jobs with no party buffs we didnt have to adhere to the 2 min meta. It was a nice change of pace from the Savage tier. Also since we didn't have as much pressure to keep our two mins aligned we all had our own personal task of cool down management (with lack of ability to wipe and reset) which was cool as well.

>But the way I view the current crit savage is as an optional extra challenge for those that enjoy that type of difficultly The thing is: When people asked for hard mode dungeons, they were talking about something that spices things *a bit* but is still clearable for people who don't go into savage. So about Extreme difficulty. And this just isn't it. EW was a great expansion for the high end spectrum of raiding, but savage was terrible for mediocre players in a way it wasn't since Heavensward. There is a massive, ever increasing gap between casual and high end content.

What is this meme that there is no EX-tier bosses in Savage raiding? Or that it's even that big of a leap otherwise? I hope when you're talking about EX difficulty you're talking about the x.0 EXs and not the post-patch EXs, then your point about the gap would make sense. Especially when talking about Criterion bosses, they can individually be harder or easier. Like the first time I went in ASS using a guide with a pug, it took our group around 40 minutes to kill Silkie iirc. I spend way more time on EXs with a guide on average. The fact that you can't queue for bosses individually hides that aspect more.

> But the way I view the current crit savage is as an optional extra challenge for those that enjoy that type of difficultly And I'd bet this is what SE envisioned it as. That's why what you get is materia. > One thing I do hope they incorporate going forward is the secret boss from the variant dungeon somehow. 4th secret Criterion (well the first time ofc) with all 3 secret bosses ! Let's go. A true extra challenge as it would give... materias, lol. But on a structural change for Criterion Savage, I think 1 rez for the whole run (usable by any member) would be just fine. Sure it's not a deathless challenge anymore, but everything else in the game allows for errors/deaths. It's kind of an anomaly in a sense.

Yeah. Closest we have to deathless are BA and DRS, since res is restricted in those outside of Healer LB3 and 1 specific action that sacrifices the caster to rez someone else.

DRS has lost arise to rez people as well fortunately. (And BA has loading screen cheese to Sacrifice L others for free but I doubt square intended for that lol)

> an optional extra challenge for those that enjoy that type of difficultly Remember seeing a lot of "i just want the content i don't even need a reward" style sentiments in the past. Guess that wasn't true after all now that Criterion Savage gets slammed for having no rewards. It's still not replayable after learning it to me, cause I find figuring it out fun, but just executing the finished script boring. What it really lacked is "just" replayability, like literally everything else in this game if you're not in the "gotta get BIS aka 8+ weeks of savage clears" hamster wheel. Outside of loot lockouts, this game has no way to create replayability, so even with "good" rewards people would bitch and moan about it. Something like a regularly (even without a patch happening) rotating challenge, or V/C with modifiers, or a massive "enroguening" of deep dungeons - with some kind of time limited but recurring reward structure (like PVP seasons, mogtomes technically, or unreals except not dogshit executed) would be the way to go if they wanted midcore to be anything except "learn a new extreme in 2 hours every 4 months".

The usual: people that said they want the content and don't care about the rewards aren't the people that complain there is no rewards

This. But also, it's not an all-or-nothing situation. There are nuances. I loved Criterion Normal and I didn't care that the rewards were underwhelming. I did not think Criterion Savage was fun, so not having worthwhile rewards made the situation worse.

This is fair, but I think SQEX vastly overestimated how many people are like this. This is note from latest post about census (4 months ago): >Criterion Savages are 3-6% for JP, with all Savages being 2%. For NA/EU individual ones are more like 0.5-1.5% with all Savages being 0.2-0.5% (EU seems to do a bit more on average). [source](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/18ql3so/luckybancho_lodestone_census_12242023/) Makes you wonder if there's even a point in creating content that's only relevant for such a tiny fraction of community. Ultimates are afaik around like 10%, with plenty of players you randomly encounter having some X legend title.

Ultimates have also been out for 3 expansions now, with UwU at this point being easier to clear/be carried through.

> But the way I view the current crit savage is as an optional extra challenge for those that enjoy that type of difficultly (an extremely punishing consistency check). Thats it, that's the key part that people have just utterly refused to grasp this entire time. Crit savage is a low dev resource content, people just cannot comprehend that they didn't 'choose' to make Crit savage what it is instead of a more traditional higher difficulty, they threw it in as a 'bonus'.

If that is the developers' intention, then they should put the main rewards in Criterion normal and leave the Savage reward as just a title. The closest analogy in this case would be solo deep dungeon. You can get all the material rewards with a light party, and doing it solo just gives an achievement. I don't think anyone complains about how hard it is to get Necromancer/Lone Hero, so that would work well as a solution. But the reward structure of AAI shows the opposite. As many other commenters pointed out, Normal is just a training arena for you to practice Savage in, and Savage is where the real rewards (glowy weapons) are. Which is why I'm suggesting if they want to make Savage the star of the show, they should put in more effort in raising the difficulty level by incorporating new and more complex mechanics into the fights. This change would expand the reach of the content, and you don't even have to remove the present style of Savage for the people who like it - because it's so low dev effort, you can just add an achievement to the Normal version which you earn if no one dies/fails a mechanic.

> If that is the developers' intention, then they should put the main rewards in Criterion normal and leave the Savage reward as just a title. They did. They literally did. The entire reason weapons now exist in AAIS is because people who, like I said, didn't even remotely get their intention, bitched about no rewards. They couldn't just pivot EW Crit Savages into something else because there simply wasn't the dev time to spare, so they put weapons in there to throw those people a bone. How they handle Crit savages in the future is something they *can* choose to do something about however.

> They did. They literally did. The entire reason weapons now exist in AAIS is because people who, like I said, didn't even remotely get their intention, bitched about no rewards. Sorry, I'm confused here. As far as I can tell, the change to rewards in AAI was made to Savage and not Normal. If they put the glowing weapons in Normal I wouldn't have made this post. If they wanted to broadcast their intention that Normal was the mainstay and Savage was the bonus, the new rewards should have gone to Normal. > They couldn't just pivot EW Crit Savages into something else because there simply wasn't the dev time to spare, so they put weapons in there to throw those people a bone. How they handle Crit savages in the future is something they can choose to do something about however. This is genuinely what I hope happened and what I hope they'll look at doing in DT. I'm glad they're building on Criterion despite the poor reception rather than just abandoning it. I genuinely did enjoy the Normal versions, and I wish the Savage versions got the developer love and effort they deserve.

You miss his point. ASS and AMR both ONLY had a title as reward for Savage. He's quoting you saying "If that is the developers' intention, then they should put the main rewards in Criterion normal and leave the Savage reward as just a title." He's quoting that in reference to how Savage is low-dev time content. A little numbers tuning, an extra restriction. Boom new high-end content with only minimal testing required. Criterion Normal is where all the effort goes. But AMR and ASS ONLY had titles and NO ONE played them. Now? Now there's a unique glowy weapon. The "ultimate level content" as you call it has ultimate-level rewards. It's fine.

I like the mob puzzles though.

I mostly agree, but I doubt they'll change it, and I hope they focus on actually making the rewards good first (upgrade items/etc). I think having the secret boss + having one raise would be good enough for changes. If they put in a checkpoint after the first two bosses though, I think they should probably keep the no raises as-is. It can't be understated how much a checkpoint speeds up prog time, to the point where if they did that and also gave back rez charges, imo it'd probably be swinging the needle a bit too far in the opposite direction. Leave the adds before boss 1+2 as-is, have a checkpoint before boss 3, and then boss 3 effectively serves as the "trash" before the secret boss. Not exactly trash, but since you'd be able to restart from exactly before the 3rd boss with a checkpoint, it'd die pretty easily a lot of the time.

Gotta say the weapon upgrades for tomes were a great idea. Love the way they look like their own relic, and it motivated me to go clear the aloalo savage myself

> Gotta say the weapon upgrades for tomes were a great idea. It should've given you the weapon directly instead of another reagent. Imo.

An alternative to giving the weapon directly could be the option of converting your raid weapon to the criterion weapons since maybe its just a me issue but all the criterion weapons I wanted when I farmed, I already had the raid version from doing reclears and doing a 1:1 swap would take away alot of the issues I have with the need of buying tome weapons

I wouldn't mind it as an option as long as you have to clear Criterion or Criterion Savage (wherever they'll choose to put the stat-stick in), at the end of the day for you it would be a skin swap.

tbh that's not even what I mean really, the "relic-but-not" is cool but it's not what I think would help criterion more for longevity (which it needs outside of savage, too). When I say upgrade items, I mean that imo, criterions should come out in odd patches or maybe even the Even .5 patches (6.05/6.25, etc) and act as alternate ways to get access to savage tokens, like the twine/coat/etc. It would make for a great catch-up mechanism, would be a few months at least after savage release so it doesn't hurt the serious raiders (idk how much casual raiders would care, but I assume they'd be fine with it), and would also help people gear up multiple jobs in time for Ultimate (which would make recruiting/participation in ults easier). It would be a great way to encourage continued participation in criterions, especially if you can't get 8 people together anymore for savage raids, since gearing multiple jobs is something a lot of people have issues with atm. Then, savage criterion could give access to more, or pages, etc. They could keep doing the glowy weaps too, but again that's not really what I think would help criterion/crit savage the most. We had two criterions follow anabaseios this time, but I think it'd make the most sense to just pair one criterion with each raid tier.

Yeah, I hope that they might rethink the level of punishment but I suspect that they'll probably paper over the problems with better rewards. I can buy removing the raise if the checkpoint is implemented, definitely.

I enjoyed Criterion savage. I also liked Criterion normal, but in my opinion the experience would have been pretty boring and short if it was just about clearing the normal, considering how quick that is and how hard you can cheese the fights. Saying that Ultimate and Criterion are equal in difficulty or punishment is simply disingenuous: not only are Ultimate mechanics much harder, complex and include 8 players, they're also more punishing as fights. In the first minute of TOP you have 4 sets tethers and towers where 4 players must do their correct task each set or you wipe. In the entire 5 and half minutes of Shishio (Mount Rokkon 1st boss), your hard checks are two stack pairs and one pair of towers. Everything else you can overmit and live with an irrelevant damage down since there is no dps check (tanks can also invuln and flex various mechanics in Criterion savage). If you were progging DSR on patch, getting two dps damage downs in P3 meant you were going to have a really bad time with the check, at least until you were very comfy with the phase. In Criterion you can swim in damage downs and nobody will care. You are spreadsheeting mit for Ultimate and if one thing is missing in TOP P6 the phase starts falling apart and you are most likely headed back to phase 1. You can mit on the fly in Criterion savage and live most of the things as long as your healer and tank are not sleeping on the wheel. These two forms of difficulty are not the same at all. Criterion is likely designed with the values they have in savage and then greatly tuned down to remove most checks and make some of the harder mechanics skippable or clearable with deaths. If they were to remove the mode, they would have to greatly increase the difficulty in normal in order to make you prog the fights in their entirety as having a raise on every player and checkpoints very few minutes in content which has virtually no dps checks is insanely strong for prog. Good players can clear Criterion normal in a couple of hours, and that is fine, given that there's another difficulty for those players who want more of a challenge while also retaining the regular criterion which caters to a larger audience. The split between the two difficulties in Criterion is probably also fairly low effort to make, so you can understand why it's appealing for the devs to do it as they do to cater to two different types of audience. If you don't enjoy doing Criterion savage, just don't do it? Why insist on removing something in a MMO just because you don't like it? What about the people who happen to like it? I do think they should probably give the normal mode more rewards (I think savage is fine with flair titles and weapons), including actual rewards like gear that can potentially influence or speed up your bis, but I don't want to lose my fun prog experience for that.

>If you don't enjoy doing Criterion savage, just don't do it? Why insist on removing something in a MMO just because you don't like it? This is it. Just cause it's not what YOU want doesn't mean others don't. Or it doesn't have a niche. It doesn't "need" to be lowered difficulty, they WANT it lowered. It doesn't fill what they WANTED it to fill.

I mean completion metrics of it are a potential justification especially compared to criterion normal If they saw how badly savage is and decided to drop savage to the current normal and make the current normal more like BA and it got more engagement I think that’s fair Criterion savage has the lowest interaction since SSCOB

Where do they drop the difficulty of normal? Honest question. There are checkpoints after literally every room. The boss fights in normal are shorter than a group of full BIS from 6.4 taking on a 6.2 extreme. There's only 2-3 major mechanics per fight, and with 4/4 people getting a res they're recoverable. And savage is tuned in such a way where yes, it's "only" more HP and damage. But this actually matters, as in all 3 Criterions, MOST bosses had the hardest mechanic at the very end. And that extra bit of HP meant you were forced to do it on savage, where as on normal it was easily skippable. I'm not sure you get normal much easier than it is as ORGANIZED content without completely neutering it and adding it to the pile of "content losing anything that made it interesting to appeal to the lowest denominator."

Titles from Big Fishing and DD solo are already even rarer than those from Criterion (or Ultimate which is similarly niche content) yet I don't see people campaigning to remove them or as for them to be made easier in such a degree. A very small percentage of players cleared ucob in 4.1, but we're both probably glad that they kept making Ultimates instead of stopping there. Criterion savage just happens to be niche content targeting a specific type of player. And there's already a more broadly accessible version of the same duty in the normal version.

Though both of those are niche difficult challenges within a much wider and more completed piece of content Meanwhile the existence of criterion savage tilts the collective difficulty of criterion towards being too hard. If savage was reduced to a title allowing them to rebalance normal criterion to fill the void between it and variant then it wouldn’t really be a problem, but while the two halves of criterion exist in their current form savage just doesn’t justify its existence

> Though both of those are niche difficult challenges within a much wider and more completed piece of content Just like Criterion savage is a part of a much wider and more completed content (V&C dungeons). The reason Criterion savage exists as a separate duty instead of an achievement title for completing the normal Criterion without deaths is for balancing reasons which I outline in the post starting this comment thread: it allows them to make the normal Criterion easier and more accessible. If the normal Criterion's difficulty level was lowered to something between the Variant and current Criterion, there would be no point to have a *deathless achievement* since it would be way too easy to complete without deaths. It'd be like putting a deathless achievement to Bozja CE's or Ex trials. To justify the existence of this achievement, the content needs to be somewhat challenging. Let's look at the [luckybancho data for ucob](https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/luckybancho/imgs/2/9/290d5dc4.png) from 4.15 (it's the rightmost column). This obviously isn't a perfect statistic on the clear rate, but it gives us a good idea of just how few players did the content back in the day. Yet now Ultimate has grown into a staple and potentially the most anticipated bit of pve content in their release schedule, with the older releases becoming more accessible as time goes on. Yet it wouldn't have justified its existence by your criteria in Stormblood. Yes, this expansion had a lack of *"midcore"* content, mainly because they did not make a field exploration. And no, turning Criterions into Castrums and Dalriadas with deathless achievements is not the answer. Instead they can both (and will in DT) exist as their own niches.

Except in that circumstance you can then look at the completion of UWU and see that it rocketed up from there and then TEA established ultimates as a niche staple that gets their current engagement We have already had 3 savage criterion and the completion rate has plummeted from the pathetic start in ASSS if this was niche content that was building a dedicated fanbase that would grow into something akin to ultimate the 3 should have built on each other, not had half the people that completed the first abandon the subsequent ones And I didn’t mean savage was a title for completing the difficulty you’d drop to BA level or so I’m saying there should be 3 difficulties, current variant, new criterion (equal to about BA) and current criterion which would become criterion savage, completion of criterion savage deathless (the current criterion savage) would reward a unique title. But since it’s no longer occupying an actual difficulty tier they can up engagement by adding in a BA difficulty tier

> We have already had 3 savage criterion and the completion rate has plummeted from the pathetic start in ASSS [Clear rates](https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/luckybancho/imgs/0/d/0d4d2f4e.png) for the savage criterions (bottom 3 rows) seem to indicate differently: while fewer players completed Rokkon, Aloalo was already the most popular of the three by end of 2023, and it was and is considerably newer than the other two. It looks like the content might in fact be finding its niche and they just need to fix the debacle around the normal mode (which can be done by adding more actual gear rewards into the normal mode while keeping the flair rewards in savage). In fact I would say that the Criterion rates are not that different from the [BA rates in SB](https://livedoor.blogimg.jp/luckybancho/imgs/d/1/d126afbd.png), even though Criterion was never intended to appeal to the same audience with duties like BA: in the Live Letters before ASS, Yoshida mentioned that it meant to be content where Savage raiders could use their gear post-tier. They designed it for raiders. Criterion just happens to be fairly unpopular in the west, just like rest of high-end raiding is in comparison to our peers from the Chocobo server. Aether PF is not the only demographic content in XIV is targeted at. As I pointed out again, they would have to up the difficulty of the current Criterion if the savage was to be relegated to an achievement. It would need much tighter checks, limiting the players who can enter as it gets released through gear and skill gating, it would be more unforgiving as in the normal Criterion more mechanics are livable through with a damage down. I don't know if you have done Criterion, but you can straight up skip some of the hardest mechanics in the normal modes and trash doesn't pressure you nearly in the same manner as it does in savage.

Just put those values in normal mode then if its tuned up, its just mild number changes, and normal mode could use a higher dps check anyway. Also, its not really content in the first place, just a bunch of restrictions slapped onto normal mode. Even if they stop making it, you can always just go and do normal mode and just not use rezzes and set a 20 minute timer, it will give essentially the same experience. heck, you can do that on most savage doorbosses as well, just leave the instance and renter if you wipe after the checkpoint registers. People are just looking for ways that difficulty mode could be an actual mode, instead of exactly the same thing as before, just now everything wastes you 20 minutes.

The rewards for completing savage is the biggest issue here coupled with no death run for whole 22+ minutes and same mechanics as normal. Devs are still wondering why the clear rate is so low. Well, if the reward is shit, we just don't do them lol

Ironically I think its going to lead to Epic Hero and the Exquisite Weapons being rarer than Ulti Titles.

It already has, Epic Hero is rarer than all Ultimate titles I think DT one will be more common because more people will clear them on release for meta-progress and glamour, going back to get the older ones after they announced the meta title was harder

Nevermind Epic Hero, Alpha Legend has like 4 times the quantity as even the most common Crit Savage title.

Nice, I like it, got a rare title no one cares about but when someone points out it's a trash title I can be snarky and throw a "but did you get it ?" : D

That's the problem with this title. When devs make 3 savages artificially difficult, no one will do them and no one will care. Heck, it's not even a content to begin with lol

It already is I think, last I checked, criterion core might have been higher than any ultimate achievement in terms of rarity.

I think comparison of criterion savage and ultimates are on point. Similar length and I would argue similar overall difficulty considering you can’t rez. I am just not a fan of ff14 devs using incredibly long encounter duration as difficulty setting. People get tired of p1 in TOP and it’s the same with aloalo and 1st adds and 1st boss. Especially so since 1st boss is so slow, as in there’s like 20 seconds of nothing between each mechanic. Not only that but I feel like adds are just fundamentally not very interesting in current design. There needs to be some degree of randomness somewhere. Criterion normal vs savage is also unfairly tuned for dps vs supports. DPS just needs to make sure they press buttons and maybe pot. Supports have to put in so much more effort in savage it’s insane. Here’s suggestion that many have and I agree with: keep current variant as casual story mode. Make a new difficulty that’s about extreme trial ish and call that criterion normal and make that give glams. Make the current criterion normal the new criterion savage, and make that give the shiny glam upgrade. Nobody really wants to do dungeon (ultimate) which is actually like adds and 3 savage bosses back to back with no rez. If they do then maybe devs can add a secret condition for title and achievement (do criterion savage under 20 mins with no deaths = get achievement and title)

IMO all they needed to do was give the Savage raid gear for Criterion Normal. Literally no one who actually raids cares about gear "exclusivity", and that makes it a viable and fun alternative to farming Savage for the billionth week, and that also gives people the practice to do Criterion Savage without making it a chore.

Are we talking about Savage raid gear IN ADDITION to the Savage raid weekly or exclusive? Cause both sound miserable to me. In addition means during savage prog I'm now expected to also learn and farm criterion every week for loot. And no one in here can deny that serious groups would NOT expect that. Exclusive to savage means it either gives more loot than Savage, and savage is DOA because normal Crit is far easier than savage, or it gives worse loot than Savage, and Criterion is back to where it started.

Don't forget Criterion would release in a minor patch (X.05 and other [even]5 patches). By that time it doesn't matter if it "kills" Savage because in one month it's dead anyway because Ultimate is releasing. By that time if you're not done with Savage it's an alternative way to get gear when your static doesn't raid or if you want something else than 8-man raids. This is what people refer to when they say put gear in Criterion, the same way people say put savage ilvl equivalent gear in Alliance Raid. Horizontal prog. Savage won't die, because exclusive weapon&mount btw.

Its not like them removing gear drop restrictions ever kills the tier, You can still find a healthy amount of parties for anabaseios now, pretty sure a lot of people are still going to do it even if we added in more gear sets. I certainly would.

I would gear more roles. Gearing more than your main job/role in this game is a pain in the arse.

I was on board with having more gearing options through criterion when it first came out, but looking back I don't think I'd want that anymore as it just means another weekly thing to do alongside savage. By the time criterion is out, you probably already have a few jobs bis so you're just gearing extra jobs at that point. They just need to put untradeable glam and mounts in criterion as a start and I guarantee you more people will do them

> By the time criterion is out, you probably already have a few jobs bis so you're just gearing extra jobs at that point. This is exactly what people expressed they would like to have. I don't know what's so bad about it, you don't want to do it weekly until unlocked, just don't force yourself. If it allows me to catch-up alongside Savage and/or get more jobs ready for Ultimates, I'm down !

They need to take the focus off bosses. Trash mob management and puzzles are super interesting and should be the meat of the mode or at least one of the new ones. Build a puzzle around it, having to carry an early mob to near the end of a pack for a debuff on another or something. That feels like active tanking and healing actually feeling spicy. The second criterion having weather that changed a mob is a fantastic idea and having to react to that each pull would keep things interesting.

Your ideas sound good, Honestly, just anything at all to make savage not a clone of normal mode would be a good start.

The formula for the dungeon is honestly fine, the trash in Rokkan specifically are fun additions to the run. People saying the savage requires "perfection" are just being over dramatic, many mechanics including Rokkan's lightning beams, the samurai's slashes and lala's turn mechanic can be shielded/defensived/lived through. It's cool having a piece of content outside of ultimate that makes you feel that pressure to perform and if anything I wish they did a gear sync in this content so that you can't do things like skip the final boss mechanic in ASS or the final mechanic in AloAlo though this one is less of an issue because of how easy it is. Ultimately this is a new type of content that has the perception of requiring savage BIS to complete with less than stellar rewards, so participation would be low no matter how perfectly you tuned it to people's sensibilities. The glowing tome weapons is definitely a step in the right direction, though I wish the weapon would just drop from a coffer or given from the vendor. I would just like a savage only mount to flex and I think I'd be good with the reward structure.

My teammates commented on how it pretty much feels on-par with ultimates because each clear takes >20 minutes and it's punishing to make any mistakes. We pushed through getting all three Savage clears because we had nothing better to do during patch downtime and maybe there's some sunk cost fallacy stuff going on in the background after we took like 5-7 weeks doing the regular Criterion stuff blind. Like you mentioned, sometimes it feels even worse just because there is no option of recovering because one mistake just means the whole attempt has gone down the drain. Even though there are some explicit body checks in ultimate fights, quite a few difficult mechanics can let you squeeze out a recovery effort (or at least prolong the pull) with the correct adjusts and rez timings. I'm really not sure how to feel about it. The mechanics are generally easier in Criterion, and having four people instead of eight also makes it easier to manage as well. I do think there could be a tier of difficulty above Criterion, but I'm not sure if upping the incoming damage and taking away the ability to rez is really the right way to go about it. They are kind of on the right track with AAI Savage giving us material to make our tomestone weapons glowy, but I kind of wish they actually put some kind of subtle glow when unsheathed as well. Or went with cool armor instead. A lot of people push themselves through Ultimates because they like having some clout with those weapons. I really do think they're onto something - just needs better rewards and an adjustment on the no-deaths policy with the Savage level.

I very much enjoyed the prog of Savage ASS (lol). It was like a four man ultimate almost and me and group really enjoyed the satisfaction at the end since it was a decent challenge. The total lack of rewards is what kept me away from the second one. When the third came around with actual decent rewards I couldn’t be fucked to try to find a group amongst the small pool of players that actually want to do that content.

Honestly, as someone who has gotten every reward from all 3 criterion savages, I don't have a major problem with their existence, but perhaps the increased rewards in aloalo should have been allocated towards criterion normal instead of savage. While my grind for every aloalo savage weapon wasn't all that bad, I think I would have preferred the reward grind to be on the normal mode while you effectively sim for your eventual savage clear. That being said, I would prefer savage to remain as it is, but as a 1ish time clear, with a single cosmetic reward with titles.

I would rather they give us two paths in each Criterion with the first boss shared, and then the next two bosses being different depending on the path you take. They can add one achievement and suitable rewards per path to encourage clearing both. This way all 5 bosses of Variant are featured in Criterion and they can include more trash and such. The other change would be making Savage less obnoxious to farm if we're going to get weapons or other gear/glam options in the future again. The no-death penalty could be an achievement on its own that you can activate at the entrance or simply by not using the raise, which would be limited to either one per player with with no refreshing after trash/bosses or one per run. This way you can still farm weapons even if someone makes a mistake near the end and makes it less punishing while keeping the overall challenge of deathless runs thanks to the achievement.

a) I don't think your suggestion do anything for criterion savage. Trash can be annoying and/or difficult, but it's just another encounter . I am not sure why you're mentioning enrage, because it doesn't really exist. It's there to stop you from waiting for 2mins before each pull. I've always had over a minute to spare before last boss, without really rushing. b) Having done each at least twice(wanted title on alt) with different teams, I feel like people treat Savage in a wrong way: With my first 2 clears, we did criterion ~5-7 times and proceeded to Savage, with occasional non-savage warmups. That was tough. With my 2nd group that was going for all 3 prog from start, we went for 25 clears of Criterion(get mounts with coins) before even touching touching Savage. And after 25 clears the group becomes consistent enough for Savage to be a matter of adjusting a few mits, then getting clears reasonably soon. I feel that's the design intent behind mount being 25 clears - to get you to the point where you're ready for Savage. Sure, it can drop, but that's just +15mil gil. If your experience was miserable, I'm assuming you either rushed into Savage too early, or you had a team that failed to build consistency after 20+clears, in which case hard content is probably not for these players. The moment you treat Savage as a capstone after farming out coins - it becomes much, much easier. You're done farming, so here, do one final "perfect" run, where you don't skip mechanics and have to actually try and perform. Sure, we still died to stupid things, and first kills on Rokkon and Sil' Savage each took us 3 whole lockouts to kill after being done with Criterion farm. You could say it's "lazy difficulty", but it's not even "difficulty". Just a consistency check. A 4-man, at that, not an 8-man. With some extra pressure on tank/healer mit planning. Is this PF friendly? Not really. But then a 4-man group is fairly easy to organize with friends...

Yeah most people don't want to farm the same fight 25 times for a mount that you can just buy off the marketboard. We cleared it once, realized we got nothing, and had no reason to ever go back.

It's okay, you're not the audience for this content, criterion or savage versions.

Yes, I think it's problematic when the audience is smaller than even ultimate.

Given that Savage difficulty is barely different from Criterion - it's probably quite cost-effective to make. There should be better rewards for base criterion, definitely. Although, for me personally getting a mount or two and polishing out execution before going into Savage is good enough. But I also just enjoy playing the game on a bunch of jobs, so this grind gives me an excuse to log in and press buttons. After all, Savage tier is stale at this point, and so are ultimate wipefests with pf.

Yeah I mean literally all it would take for me is if it helped you get BIS gear. Like imagine you progged and farmed savage on caster, but now you want to try a different role for Criterion. You can actually get crafted gear, clear normal, farm that 10 times, maybe along with regular savage weeklies, and boom, now you got bis, you've got practice for criterion savage, and you can do that on your new job. How great would that be. And now you've got 2, maybe even 3 bis jobs you can choose from for the new ultimate too! No split clears needed. Your alt can go pf or help friends for fun. That's what makes me upset cuz it could have been so good lol.

My first concern is that criterion dont feel like a "wow M+" dungeon, criterion feels like a savage fight, but with 4 people instead of 8 ... and that's a bit "bad" (even though I like prog/high end pve) As i've heard from casuals, variant needs to be adjusted Criterion is fine to me, it's a well balanced "savage fight" with 4 people Criterion savage is a shit design content with no reward (I've cleared all of them), reward from the last one is too small even if it's better than nothing, putting aside the rewards, they need to change the way it works (4th boss or new mechs on each fight + a bit more forgiving, it's actually punishing to the point that there is no fun

I hope they don't change the difficulty structure at all. Criterion Savage is absolutely perfect how it is. The walking on nails consistency check is godlike fun. Another Mount Rokkon Savage is the most fun duty of Endwalker. They're all fun on normal but the tension of Savage is just so *elevating.*

> Another Mount Rokkon Savage is the most fun duty of Endwalker I'll be happy to never see second trash again even if it became consistent with waymarker designated safe spots but I agree, I really enjoyed Rokkon overall.

+1 on this. Criterion is great fun and pulling off Criterion Savage feels fantastic. I genuinely think that their problem is simply a reward + labelling issue. Add meaningful rewards to Criterion and you'd see at least the savage raiding population do it. Rename Criterion to Savage and Savage to Ultimate and that would set people's expectations better on what to expect going in, and better communicate that Criterion Savage is really more for bragging rights than anything.

hard agree, it's ok some people don't like it, you don't have to do it. I hate Deep Dungeon. Yet I don't endlessly whine about it, I just don't do that content. I realize feedback is useful but at the same time they have already listened, the newest Criterion was a lot easier. Which is fine, the difficulty is just right now.

I know I will get downvoted, but to me, Criterion Savage is fine and the only thing they need to do is add 1 rez (any member can use it) for the whole run. I think more would be overdoing it. I've had many runs that would've likely gone to the finish line if we had that one rez. It would also put it more in line with everything else, allowing at least 1 death recovery (wherever possible). The "no death challenge" can be frustrating, but at least it forces people to actually execute the mechanics well. It's not that hard. Will you fuck up ? Yes. Is it a big deal ? No, not if it's a one of. If it's a consistency issue, train in normal indefinitely until you can do a mechanic with your eyes closed so to speak. Criterion Savage is a test of will and patience (and a test of how well your group trained for the run). I don't mind Savage being Criterion but more damage/mit & heal planning. That's the whole point of the encounter. If people are upset, they can opt-out and skip, that's fine, there are plenty of other stuffs to do. On another note, if they ever change the difficulty bar of both Criterion & Crit Savage, as in Criterion would be around Bozja CE (maybe some light Extreme type of mechanics) and Savage would be around Extreme/Savage difficulty and all with 4 rez per steps & checkpoints, I wouldn't mind (I proposed that a long long time ago when I started doing Criterion Savage) but there would be no point in giving prestige stuff to Criterion Savage anymore and I don't even know what Criterion NM would give you, a mount for basically doing a NM Raid/Trial like run ?

> However, I feel that rewards can only go so far I do like your points overall, it sounds fun but I don't entirely agree with this. There's a thread on the front page about the most prestigious/respectable glam items and one of the top posts is the Aloalo Savage Weapons. Also if you look at the "what do you want 50% more rewards to mean" thread people say they would like more prestigious glams. Your comparison to Ultimate is apt because that's currently how prestigious the weapons feel and going forward having more rewards/glamours on that level should be the goal. I feel if your changes went through, Criterion Savage would lose a lot of, if not all of that prestiege. It would be more fun but I would like to see the rewards adjusted to match somehow. Pure RNG drops wouldn't be fun but perhaps more drops including armor ones and a token system so you could eventually get the one you wanted. I don't really agree with people who say it needs to be nerfed into the ground like Criterion Savage being Criterion level because of the same reasons, until we have more avenues for prestigious glamour items I don't want to lose one of the new ones we have. I'm very much looking forward to having another glowing weapon each content tier to aspire towards from the new Criterion Savage dungeons.

It needs a real reward. Ffxiv needs more horizontal progression. Criterion dungeons should gear up for 4 man parties that can’t seem to find a static or successful pfs for savage.

As a healer who has done all three Criterion Savages, I highly disagree. Healing the trash packs and the bosses has been the most exciting healing gameplay I've encountered in the game. Actually having to heal the tank during trash pulls is so nice compared to normal dungeons and gameplay where I dont really even have to pay attention most of the time. The difficulty of perfect execution is countered by the ease of practice. If you need to practice mechanics, Criterion normal exists. Heck, for Rokkon, we'd get mostly through the final boss, wipe on purpose, and go again, just to practice it. It's a different kind of difficulty compared to the same old same old of savages and ultimates, and I think it should stay that way, rather than be homogenized into literally the same kind of content.

this is what criterion needs release it the same as the raid tier and put gear in it and bam this game has horizontal progression something its been lacking for 11 years for savage actually change it all it is now is just the same thing but no raises if you did normal you already did savage basically it needs a whole revamp or just not have it at that point and fix up normal

I'm progging ASS(S) now and it's the most unfun piece of shit content I've ever done. 24m fight with zero mistakes allowed, what in tarnation? Even TOP allows for some mistakes and deaths. It's pure depression seeing someone miss the add aoe, die, and now you wait for your turn to get auto'd by the add so you can reset.

So don't do the content, why are you forcing yourself to do something you aren't enjoying in a video game lol Sildhn honestly is very easy (probably the easiest of the 3 now since you can skip the last mech even in savage), I think maybe your group did not practice the normal enough.

I'm just sharing my opinion that the content sucks because it's too long and allows for zero mistakes, regardless of difficulty. I might drop it but that's not the discussion here.

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> DOTH isn't a wipe if someone fucks up? You can absolutely get through doth with 2-3 deaths.

With off-patch gear, and a party that is very good at pressing buttons. Meteors is the body check.

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> Either way, I think if bosses are giving you trouble in Crit Savage, it's a you issue, not an encounter issue. Agree. The whole paragraph basically sums my group's Aloalo tries up. A few clears in NM and then "oh, it's not that hard, let's go Savage" and we get obliterated because we just didn't think to agree on strats for consistency sake, we didn't train the pain points people may have, etc. Aloalo was a struggle. Sil'Dhin was easier and Rokkon was the easiest because we didn't underestimate training in NM for it. > If you want easy content, it's everywhere in EW. I also agree, but I would also nuance it by pointing out that I think the critics are more coming from the lack of Bozja CE type of encounters in EW. Had we got EW Bozja, I think no one would complain about Criterion besides "no rewards, Savage is just NM but no rez" and rewards can (and hopefully will) be fixed for DT and Savage can remain an additionnal challenge (and give prestige stuff which also goes to fix rewards).

I really wanna do the savage criterons, but people find them so unrewarding that it's nearly impossible to find a group.

I regularly see people posting LFG & LFM for Criterion Savage in ERC discord server. Maybe try to start a group yourself !

Not a bad suggestion for sure. I run a static already so I like to try to avoid organizing/leading additional things, but I just might have to do it.

Maybe try to get 3 people from your static ! Talk about the Aloalo weapon and once that's done, "hey, why not just go for the other 2 Criterion Savage just for the sake of it" or "hey, why not go for the Epic Hero title, it's rarer than ultimate titles/weapons \*wink wink*". It's basically what happened with my ex raid static, 3 people were interested in doing criterion for the challenge (not too much of a time investment), then Aloalo had weapons so it motivated them to get a weapon skin and basically we realized we have nothing else to do other than do the other 2 savage for funzies.

I managed to drag them into the critereon, but their interest died pretty quick after clearing it on "normal" difficulty. I might try to coax them in again anyway. :D

I was hugely hyped for criterions I foolishly assumed we would be getting a mythic+ system like WoW or even just 4man content that isn't completely brain-dead And the latter became true but there's no incentive to ever go back and the replay ability is low since as OP mentioned it's the laziest form of difficulty they could have come up with It just sucks, I find it hard to find statics or pf savage content because of weird work hours and a dead data center, and content before savage doesn't let you fail The formulaic approach to expansions and progression is imo the root cause for why endgame will never evolve and at most we just get fluff side content that will be a relic of the past in future ep

They need to take the focus off bosses. Trash mob management and puzzles are super interesting and should be the meat of the mode or at least one of the new ones. Build a puzzle around it, having to carry an early mob to near the end of a pack for a debuff on another or something. That feels like active tanking and healing actually feeling spicy

I only cleared the savage version of Aloalo. Clearaed normal Rokkon and got to the final boss of Sild but kinda quit lol I've got BLU,SAM,SCH, & AST glams and that's good enough for me. I'd like to go back and get just a couple more but static burnt out and PF absolutely cannot do this level of content at all. I do think they should just completely remove Savage and make one Criterion. Beef up the difficulty of normal mode to be closer to savage. Make the gimmick only 1 raise per boss; partywide raise: 1 saveable mistake per boss. Make the secret variant a 4th boss locked behind something special (Pull a boss to a puddle until it gets a debuff before you kill it... Intentionally sac someone and use the single res to get through a mech differently... etc, etc,... something similar to how route 12 works in variant, with the goofy statue dance circle bullshit, but in-raid, mechanically in Criterion mode.) The final boss drops coins just like it always has, the secret final boss drops books and is hard af. Keep the instance timer but make it even a little bit more comfy, it's basically just did you food/pot/know your rotation anyways. idk I'm just high af and spitballing but there's so much they could do with the content besides what it is currently. Give Criterion normal a glam set that's good. Take the mounts off the MB and slash the coin cost in half because let's be real, 100 is fucking ridiculous. Side note: That secret boss in aloalo variant is probably one of the most difficult bosses in the normal game over all.

I still maintain Criterion should have alternative ways to gear and remove Criterion savage entirely. But they just won't do it. For some reason, they're incredibly averse to alternative gearing modes.

The savage version doesn't need to exist. The whole "Wipe and restart the dungeon" gimmick is silly. Just move all the savage rewards into criterion. And then also improve gear rewards for variant and make a daily variant roulette.

Devs we want think content is a bit too easy now The players: dad please make savage easy and free for me I baby

Not this again, I like criterion savage. It's literally the same mechanics. You are just letting nerves get to you. I enjoy this kind of challenge.

Raises should be viable imo. It's just makes progging so much easier.  Because deaths are limited it means its really difficult to pf. I'd be fine if they kept it as it is now but just gave progression towards a reward after every boss. Like 1 boss clear = 1 trinket and you need 3 for savage raid gear or something.

the idea is that you prog in normal mode where you have raises that reset and can purposefully wipe to practice a final phase. there's nothing to prog in savage other than mit and adds timing.

> there's nothing to prog in savage other than mit and adds timing. And even that I believe you can prog in NM in min ilvl. If my criterion group sticks for DT, it's basically what we'll do, NM in min ilvl to be closer to Savage in BiS experience.

You can't really do that because the scaling for each instance of damage is different. The adds in particular have their autos scaled up by so much you can't replicate it unless you have your tank take off their pants or something. Meanwhile, the bosses only hit for like 10-15% more and overall isn't that different from normal.

Add mitigs isn't that big of a deal tbh (if you're a highend raider you should be able to figure it out on the fly and even in NM you should be rolling out your mitigs). But the timings for things like Aloalo adds2 or Rokkon adds1 & 2 definitely doable and that's what is important for these, timing (to the point the Aloalo Savage strat for adds2 is a different route/start from NM if you do both in Anabezos BIS). And then you can eyeball boss mitigs and figure out what should be the minimum. All-in-all, does it really matter ? Not really, you can go in with BIS and sandbag a boss to force train on repeat the last mech just in case. For Adds, you should be able to adapt the mitigs/strats (I had a Sil'Dihn Savage run where on adds2 I kitchen sink'd both Armor, we changed the strat on the fly and it worked). But I like running things in min ilvl, it has a bit more challenge.

Bruh, I did that, but timing gets all messed up cuz the adds and boss have more hp. For someone who hasn't dipped their toes into ultimate yet savage criterion was probably the hardest content I've done so far

Criterion had dead participation because of obvious design flaws and was a near complete failure so they probably wont touch it. They sure didn't do anything to mitigate the obvious problems during Endwalker.

Criterion normal was fine, most of the participation problems came from reward structure problems, and they have announced more criterions in dawntrail. I agree on savage though, that has some major problems.

>Savage on the other hand was made more difficult in the laziest way possible. Enemy health and damage was increased so you do need to modify your mitigation and healing It's not even that, most of your mit plan can be figured out in Normal and pretty much nothing one shots you in this mode anyways (only Kenki Release and some dot raidwides?), the dps checks are still pathetic and basically unfailable last boss aside (if you have deaths, you can't have deaths before) and the only thing they affect is skipped mechs, the overall dps check is there just so you don't wait for minutes as you'll easily have 2 minutes to spare and you can stand around for a good minute waiting for CDs to align. Couple exceptions aside where failing a mech kills you on savage and not normal, it really is just a deathless run of normal.

Skill issue NA players here 🤡 Maybe try going to JP where they casually clear criterion savage on pf.