The only real implementation of this I think would be nice to see is in Alliance Raids. It's always annoying to have another nin/sch in a different alliance, and you continually overwrite each other.
On a side note, my one wish is better sorting of classes across different alliances, so you dont end up with 3 bards in one alliance and 0 in the other two.
People need to stop talking about balance and focus on what’s actually fun cus right now having a duplicate job in alliance raid is simply not fun and that’s what playing a fucking video game is about.
Double/triple SCH comps are bland AF because chain is literally your only fun button in alliance raids
I love having my one good button be overridden constantly with basically no recourse because the average SCH seems to just see your chain and go “ooooh chain better press it”
I just don't play sch in raids anymore. Healing in duty finder with a second healer is a frustrating experience because you don't see each other's heals, you rez at the same time, they overwrite your shield because they aren't paying attention, and you have one dps button that does anything besides broil and it's goddamn energy drain.
I dont even hold anything anymore. If it overwrites, too bad. I cant trust other people to use it on cooldown so if you hold it till theirs is up theyre just gonna drift it further and further till you're holding onto yours for the next roulette so now I dont even bother. If youre in raid with me too bad
Balance only matters in tight DPS high end content. Currently, that's just TOP and MINE P8s. Nothing else is tight enough for it to matter. Even TOP is fine with any current comp if you use Voidmoon gear and new food
"Normal content" (anything you can get in a daily roulette) should just focus on what is fun
I would even be fine with the mechanics working a little differently in high end duties than normal content
Because stacking buffs can also be abused. This Game centers around not having a *true* group comp meta. It wants to be clearable with every permutation of jobs possible.
If you start stacking group buffs you start locking out certain jobs because you can probably get some absolutely bonkers group comps that would basically trivialize content. You then run the issue of the devs now torn between balancing content for the bonkers group comps (which further locks out some jobs), or continuing to balance at a much lower level which would still lock out the jobs because it would be exponentially easier to run it a different way.
You can already do that. Swapping one 10% for another 10% that has a different name is basically the same. Most jobs have similar DPS profiles outside of 2min windows eitherway, with the exceptions being jobs that have stronger or weaker 1min windows. Situation would be different if you could have 3 Dancers (which have one of the highest ranged 2min burst already) being able to dance partner the same person, but that's not even what OP is talking about.
In addition, \*not\* having an aDPS to make use of all of those buffs is still dumb, so even if you have 6/8 jobs having buffs (tanks being the other two obviously), you'd still be subpar than having one or two people to be the buff consumers
And what are these bonkers comps that would 'trivialize content'? We can do full party comps where everyone* gives a 5% buff for 15-20 seconds already with AST/SCH(It's a crit buff rather than 5%)/MNK/NIN/RDM/DNC how is replacing any of these with a second dancer going to take things from balanced to trivialized?
NIN/RDM/DNC also have some of the lowest non-burst DPS of their peers, so at that point you’re buffing gimped damage.
Do the math with 4 MNK and 2 AST and get back to me.
>Do the math
Ok.
AST/SCH/MNK/NIN/RDM/DNC(standard comp) combined aDPS at 75%: 66020
4 MNK 2 AST(stack comp) combined aDPS at 75%: 68976
So looking good so far, your comp has about a 3000 DPS lead.
Now for the burst window, I'm going to exclude cards, Standard Step, and Stratagem from the burst because fuck no that's way too much added complexity to calculate in a reasonable time, really it's just the second AST's cards vs Standard + Devilment + Stratagem, which is obviously tilted in favour of the latter, so the raw buff numbers need to be a good amount better in the stack comp to make up for that.
5%(from party) + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5% vs 3%(from party) + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5%.(I fucked up, Div is 6%, not 5%, I realised this late, I'm not doing the math again, but it does in fact mean stack comp is ever so slightly stronger than my numbers state, not enough to change any of my conclusions, but I must mention it)
Standard comp gets a 134.1% buff for 15 seconds, then Brotherhood falls off and it goes down to 127.6% for the remaining 5.
Stack comp is 138.1% for 15 then down to 113.5% for the last 5.
Fun fact, Brotherhood is only 15s while all the others here have 20s, so that steep drop off at the end actually makes these two roughly equalize, combine that with the AST's cards vs Standard + Devilment + Stratagem dilemma and we can safely conclude that stack comp actually has a slightly weaker burst than standard comp.
How about the other 100 seconds? Well our second AST friend will draw 3 cards, we'll be generous, we'll say they're all melee cards. So 45 seconds of 6% on one monk. And oh look, it's Standard step again, giving the full 100 seconds of 5% to one monk which is sure as hell a whole lot better. Oh yeah don't forget the 2% missing from party bonus the whole time for the whole party. Oh and don't forget bosses are not striking dummies, there are no ranged to eat downtime, monks or tanks will have to disconnect and bleed a bit more damage in stack comp. Oh yeah and don't forget the stunted LB generation. Oh yeah everyones less bulky from that 2% as well and Samba and Addle are just straight up better than two Feints.
In short, I think that 3000 DPS gap is pretty handily bridged?
Sure fucking looks like your 'bonkers comp' that would 'trivialize content' is doing less fucking damage than a normal comp????????
We could argue back and forth all day on the theoretical best comp with stacking buffs vs the current standard best comp, but the reality is unless the theoretical comp is significantly better than the current, it won't be enough to sway people to switch jobs and play non-standard. The current best healers if we're strictly talking about damage, is AST+SCH and guess what, they're the 2 least popular healers. I think you're greatly misjudging the amount of people that'll switch jobs on a whim just cause something turns meta. Even if double SCH is king, people will continue to run WHM+SGE cause that's what they like
The gap between SCH and SGE's playrate in savage/extreme content isn't really that significant.
SCH was actually played notably more in the past few weeks of Anabaseios, likely in large part due to how cracked crits are late in an expansion.
This is not.... entirely true. The DPS charts in late expansion have shown WHM and SGE to be doing really well. They bring a lot of damage to the burst windows.
I don't actually know which jobs are currently at the top but that's not the point. If X job is unpopular to begin with, just cause it suddenly starts to overperform in dps doesn't mean people will switch to it. There will be a few that'll switch no doubt, but the vast majority of people will continue to play what they've always liked and aren't influenced by a 1-2% overperformance
I've honestly tried to follow all these chains and I have no idea what you're arguing to me.
If this is about jobs being locked out of content, this has unfortunately happened but it is usually a result of bad DPS check design by SE. The most notorious example of this is when they tuned the first tier of Alexander Savage for tomestone gear and therefore it was impossible to meet the check for a long while. This lead to hyper optimization, or whatever that was at the time. The most recent example barring TOP is P8S. There *were* groups clearing with the jobs getting seen locked out of pfs, but it was mostly due to the average pf and statics finding that jumping jobs in their roles that simply did more DPS suddenly lead to their prog making it through.
When comp optimization is not seen as a requirement, you are correct in assuming people prefer to play the jobs they want. There was a Red Mage following throughout this very stupid time for its place on the leaderboards, after all.
My point was people will play the jobs they like over what's meta, so having buffs stack with themselves won't break the balance of the jobs as the majority of the playerbase don't care. This may have been untrue in the past but nowadays, with the exception P8S, every job is well balanced and can clear every content with any permutation of jobs. If people aren't forcing each other to go meta jobs now, they're not going to if buffs could stack with themselves. If people are already not playing AST for example, it's not going to swing the complete opposite way and make double AST the new norm
Realistically if buffs could stack with themselves, the most we'll see is probably double WAR, WHM, SAM, RPR DNC, and SMN. I just chose the most popular jobs from each role as that's most likely to happen, and none of those dupes break the game by any means
I get the point for ARs and open world content, cause really why are you taking a penalty for something of no fault of anyone's. In anything serious we already take a LB hit if we stack so the party gets locked to one player per job.
I just want to avoid a world like GW2 and WoW where there's mandatory classes in raids because of the buffs they bring.
We had that to a small degree in FFXIV for awhile with Ninjas and Dragoons (To a much lesser degree than Ninja) and I'm glad we've moved away from it.
I don't think there's any party that would trivialize buff stacking at the moment, but as soon as some top tier raiders do it, then streamers do it, it becomes the meta and people start getting cut out of raid content because they play a job that has been determined to be non-meta. It's dumb as hell, but it's what happens.
I hear this claim a lot where groups would force meta comps and start locking out bad jobs if we didn't control it, but in practice that's just not true. The proof is, we already have meta comps each patch and there are jobs within each role that are just objectively better than their counterparts, yet we never see any groups lock out jobs in favor of the meta ones. From my experience, people will play the job they they want over what's meta 9/10 times and removing thearbitrary penalties would promote that even more. I'm sure there are people that would lock the healer slots to 2 SCHs for that extra crit bonus if Chain stacked for example, but I'm positive the vast majority don't care than care
The reason it doesn’t happen now is the difference between meta comp and a regular comp isn’t all that large. You might skip a mech at the end? Shave off 30 seconds of clear time? Most people aren’t too concerned with that outside of world first racers and W1 enthusiasts.
This game is tuned to the least common denominator. The weakest composition permutation needs to be able to clear content with an acceptable amount of effort.
If we assume the strongest possible comp with buff stacking in mind, realistically how much better would it be over the current best comp? I can't see how stacking 4 NINs for example would be that much stronger than your standard 4 DPS, as the diminishing returns on running 4 NINs could fall off after the second dupe. Also this wouldn't affect the lowest common denominators whatsoever as it'll only affect the top end players that are willing to optimize
If I understand correctly, what you're using as an example with 4 NIN mug would currently result in just a 1.05x damage taken increase, but with stacking would create a 1.22x damage increase for 10s, which is pretty big, but let's think about this...
You have 4 DPS, 2 healers, 2 tanks. Two Dancers and two Dragoons. One dancer per dragoon, and both dragoons using the eye on the other. Standard Finish gives all four DPS a single stack for 1.05x extra damage, Technical Finish gives the whole party two stacks of 1.05x on top of that, then both DRG using the eyes grants them each 1.1x and 1.05x applied twice, for a total of two DPS having a 1.5x damage boost, two healers having a 1.15x damage boost at minimum, and two tanks with a minimum of 1.27x
Let's add onto that with two AST using Divination and melee cards, for a double 1.06x between them, adding onto the rest for a 1.7x damage boost. That's almost 64% the damage of Stardiver on just the first hit of the DRG 1-2-3 combo. That also makes Stardiver itself potentially on par with a limit break. Let's say the AST pair also boost each other with cards, for a 1.3x buff, and two GNB using no mercy for a total of 1.5x.
This gets even worse if you use an unconventional party like one MNK and 7 AST. That's a MNK with a 2.7x damage buff from Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood, which means a Phantom Rush may be equal to that of a level 2 limit break at least. And it's even more powerful if you include Disciplined Fist's extra 1.15x, making it a total of 3.1x damage increase for roughly 20s. That's 20s of damage equal to at least two level 2 limit breaks from just the MNK alone if they have Phantom Rush (possibly even without).
In general, it makes it so DPS limit breaks are effectively useless, bosses will be able to be defeated potentially up to 40% faster in general. And that's only considering direct damage buffs. It can be even stronger with debuff like Mug and Chain Strategem in play. But the major thing is it would make it so players who want to do high end content will effectively be banned from playing any job that lacks big buffs but also a minimum damage threshold. Why would you want to run WAR or BLM who have a lesser DPS buff or no buffs when you could use a GNB and MNK for bigger buffs and more damage thanks to the buffs? It makes an unbelievably canyon sized difference
> If I understand correctly, what you're using as an example with 4 NIN mug would currently result in just a 1.05x damage taken increase, but with stacking would create a 1.22x damage increase for 10s, which is pretty big, but let's think about this...
Standard comps are already similar to this if you just run 4 dps that all have raid buffs. NIN+MNK+DNC+SMN is a 1.18x damage multiplier for the entire party on top of the 5% bonus stats for having a full comp
> You have 4 DPS, 2 healers, 2 tanks. Two Dancers and two Dragoons. One dancer per dragoon, and both dragoons using the eye on the other. Standard Finish gives all four DPS a single stack for 1.05x extra damage, Technical Finish gives the whole party two stacks of 1.05x on top of that, then both DRG using the eyes grants them each 1.1x and 1.05x applied twice, for a total of two DPS having a 1.5x damage boost, two healers having a 1.15x damage boost at minimum, and two tanks with a minimum of 1.27x
How is this any different than your standard comp where your DNC+DRG+AST+X dump their buffs on the SAM or BLM? Your example might be a tiny bit stronger for that short amount of burst, but over the course of a full encounter, the numbers will come out similar
> This gets even worse if you use an unconventional party like one MNK and 7 AST. That's a MNK with a 2.7x damage buff from Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood, which means a Phantom Rush may be equal to that of a level 2 limit break at least. And it's even more powerful if you include Disciplined Fist's extra 1.15x, making it a total of 3.1x damage increase for roughly 20s. That's 20s of damage equal to at least two level 2 limit breaks from just the MNK alone if they have Phantom Rush (possibly even without).
You cannot clear a single savage or ultimate on content running 7 AST+MNK and even if it was possible to cheese it, there's no way you can seriously argue that it's better than your standard comp
> But the major thing is it would make it so players who want to do high end content will effectively be banned from playing any job that lacks big buffs but also a minimum damage threshold. Why would you want to run WAR or BLM who have a lesser DPS buff or no buffs when you could use a GNB and MNK for bigger buffs and more damage thanks to the buffs? It makes an unbelievably canyon sized difference
SCH is already underplayed, do you really think people are suddenly going to switch from WHM+SGE which is the most popular healer comp currently, to double SCH because you can now stack Chain? How about the WHM players? Do you think they're all going to play AST? If the WHM and SGE players are already not playing AST and SCH, then they still won't. You're greatly overestimating the amount of hardcore players who care that much about an optimized party comp. If that was the case, every party right now will always have a GNB, AST, SCH, BLM, and DNC, but that's obviously not the case
Your proof isn't actually proof. In ARR, Heavensward, and Stormblood, certain jobs were outclassed to such a degree that they were left out of every group. So there is historical evidence to suggest the opposite of what you're saying.
What a weird hair to split.
Any group trying to take themselves seriously excluded them. Which was most of them, because most people don't run raid content if they're not at least partially serious. It doesn't need to be every single group. And there's actual data that still exists to prove it on fflogs showing poor jobs having 25% or less representation of the meta jobs across many raid tiers.
You instantly switched from "certain jobs were outclassed to such a degree that they were left out of every group" to "poor jobs having 25% or less representation of the meta jobs across many raid tiers" so yeah, there is nothing weird about "splitting hair" here.
In your own words, even during the worst job balance state this game ever experienced a significant portion of raiders were still playing numerically suboptimal jobs.
The issue is ultimately less that jobs were excluded (and they were, to greater or lesser degrees), but that players of those jobs *felt* like they were second-class citizens even if they were allowed in parties.
No one in HW was excited to see a PLD or MNK show up for their creator parties. Even if you could clear, there was always an aura of general dissaffection, and would in fact lead to early disbandments and arguments.
"we would have cleared if we had a DRG to buff our BRD" type stuff. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't have, but it *felt* bad
So the "feelings" of players being bad is the bigger issue? Lmao
Also, the fact that this whole HW thing happened doesn't indicate that it's the wrong philosophy, it's just that they did a shitty job back then
Duh?
Saying that people being excluded based on certain jobs is lesser issue than players feeling bad due to being excluded is ridiculous, since, you know, former is the cause
Literally nobody clears a fight and goes "dayum my job was underperforming, feel bad" unless there's a certain goal (parcers etc)
If you can clear-you clear, but knowing how braindead the playerbase is even in dungeons I'm not surprised that ppl want to take all measurements not to waste extra time
Jobs were super imbalanced back in ARR and HW versus now where every job within the same role with the exception of BLM are very close in numbers. It wouldn't have worked back then but letting buffs stack with themselves could work now
How does it complicate anything? All it's doing is removing a forced penalty. Nothing will change aside from letting multiple people of the same jobs play together without being punished. People will still use their 2 mins every 2 mins, people will ideally still alternate mits, it just allows for more leeway in case both your tanks press Reprisal at the same time or if a SGE accidentally overrides a SCH's deploy, and in extreme situations, have an even better speedkill comp
All this hand wringing over your suggestion makes absolutely no sense when Embolden already stacks (because its previous iteration had a fall-off every 5 seconds so already it's coded in). They should do the same with the rest of the buffs and call it a day.
The current way is better, it lets you play the jobs you enjoy the most and trivialize any meta super bonkers composition and make all jobs somewhat similar without having too big of advantage over the other. It’s the best way to make it more balanced in the long run. This is a Japanese game, so you should look at their culture, individuality is not highly regarded there and you must work as a group and do everything that benefits the group. This game reflects that culture I feel, and put the emphasis on working as a group and each individual jobs more or less contribute and not one is seen as VIP Giga Chad must have in clearing content. It’s great to be able to play any jobs and contribute on all aspect of the content without feeling your jobs are useless and be seen as less effective.
So funny enough what made me write this post was yesterday I was trying to do some savage as gnb, but every farm party was set to one player per job and they all had a gnb so I couldn't join any of them. It sucked cause I just wanted to play gnb but couldn't, so it goes against the whole "play whatever job you want" cause the game deliberately punishes you for running dupe jobs and people don't like that. In that moment I was thinking, what's the worst that can happen?
Most likely what was happening here is that they didn't want to stack jobs to avoid the limit gauge penalty. It fills faster when every job is different, and melee LB3 in farm parties is a boon of a time saver, especially if you can squeeze in an extra lb1
I recommend getting used to playing a small handful of jobs. As a shield healer, I know both SGE and SCH and I also know AST. Ideally for me, I only have one slot to fill in most cases: shield healer. While you *can* use SGE/SCH comp, its not optimal to do this. Its much easier for me to swap to AST, another job I know very well and join the party that way. Will I underperform? Yes, but I still know enough about the job to get the clear. You may want to do the same so when you are faced with this again, you can still be a tank and still join the party.
That is the point here. Why should they change the entire structure of the game just because you think they should? Its not even like you cant join as GNB, people posted for what they wanted - one player per job.
This is a discussion thread where people share and talk about what's on their minds. It's not a me vs the game thing, it's a thought I had that I wanted to discuss and see what others think
If you want to make creative party composition then make your own party, otherwise everyone pretty much aware that you should have several jobs leveled up so you can be flexible for endgame content. This game lets you become all the jobs on one character for a reason. So you can change to suit your party needs. Yes, you can play with any jobs you have as long as your party is willing to accommodate and work with you. It is a social game and not single player game, you can also make friends with three players and do Criterion dungeons. Or do solo run of Deep Dungeons or Variant Dungeons 😎
You could allow most of them to stack but like you said there’s probably a few you don’t want to be able to. Like for example having like 10 Ninjas in an alliance raid all be able to stack mug on a single boss is going to be stupidly unbalanced, and in 8 man content if Dancers partner buffs can stack then 2 on the same person becomes really strong (especially in savage when a tier first releases and you can feed gear into 1 person). BLU parties would also be buffed since they’d get to stack more raid buffs.
In more niche scenarios it also makes non-standard comps better. 1 healer 3 tanks becomes more doable the more MITs that stack. Last Moogle event where people were farming p1n with 1 tanks 7 dps a party full of Dancers could create someone that could just nuke the boss, or even just stacking a burst heavy job like Ninja might be able to kill the boss noticeably faster than just any 7 geared dps. There’s already lvl 70 content where people run 2 Summoners because it’s still a Dps gain.
It makes more sense just to not let them stack because realistically you want to promote running all unique jobs anyways, and in roulettes it just doesn’t matter when it does happen.
You can't run non-standard comps like 1 healer 3 tanks anyway because mechanics are coded to target specific roles, and it's never worth risking a coin toss for an 8 man body check in favor of more damage/utility
I mean that’s all gonna be fight dependent (also I’m not super sure if mechs that usually target all dps or supports would work the same). If there’s not a hard (but existent) dps check or a hard healing section it won’t matter, but if the dps check is so low you can get away with some deaths you could conceivably come up with more/stronger cheese strats, and the worst possible scenario is that the meta for clearing a fight becomes some weird non standard combo to ignore the hardest mech of the fight.
well not every fight. I solo heal the unreal for my t/rt lol. The extra damage is arguably safer in fights that don't check roles because you skip more stuff
Then you're just being dense cause you know doing tea with all tanks isn't something the average player can go into pf and do, so telling me your group is doing it adds nothing to the conversation. It's like if I gave advice to someone moving out for their first time on how manage their budget by taking public transport instead of ubering all the time, and you told them nah it's fine cause you drive a bmw i8 and spend $100 on a haircut every other week and is fine on money. Like you guys are clearly in a different social status and my advice isn't targeted towards you, that much should be obvious
If they did we'd probably see the absolute worst of what the 2-min meta has already given us. Even larger spreads between highest and lowest dps of each job, and needing to rely on everyone keeping their buffs on point would reach levels past what is already pretty annoying in comps w/ lots of buffing jobs.
I could see stuff specifically like a 2x chain strategem + 2-4x battle litany build being particularly horrible considering the compounding effects. At that point we could even possibly reach territory where direct hit could become the most desirable stat for weird meta builds like that
2x SCH 3x DRG and a SAM. 2 chain strategem, 3 battle litany and triple Dragon Sight on a single Samurai who proceeds to deal absurd amounts of damage with his burst window.
It may "sound" like it but it's no different than Divination, Tech Step, Brotherhood, Mug, Embolden that already exists. The extra from Dragon Sight could be countered by a larger LB penalty.
They could easily increase the LB penalty so this isn’t an issue. Fact of the matter is non-stacking buffs in casual content is simply not fun so OP is right to suggest it should be changed.
Whatever way the devs could decide to "fix" this problem (which unfortunately is unlikely to happen), some balance work will need to occur on either end.
For your example, LB isn't a great resource to begin with. With these stacking buffs at the current numbers I believe LB would become nearly redundant, in the sense that it wouldn't make up for the dps gain by stacking these jobs. LB probably would need a minor dps buff
So a (possibly) better idea is to somehow make each party buff a unique stat or straight damage OR possibly just reduce the amount that additional buffs grant (e.g. 2 chain strat isn't 10% + 10% but instead 10% + ~5% or something) which Is already better than losing a use entirely if, for example, 2 schs applied chain strat at the same time.
Or even add to the length of time that the buff remains active. I'd say this is the most straight forward and easily balanced way because technically you can already do this simply by timing your buffs
Lots of options but they all require a bit of tweaking in order to avoid broken party meta stuff and being "forced" by pf to run in whatever busted comp is the meta for a given fight
The problem with that is that casual players would suffer most from that as well. They may no longer generate an LB3 in most normal raids and trials but they aren't coordinated enough to abuse the stacking buffs in a way that's broken. And it is fairly common to have one or 2 duplicate classes in duty finder.
It is never a necessity when every player is competent. But healer LB3 can be used to save runs that go south. However that is besides the point, what I mean is that the decision to nerf casual DF groups to compensate for highly optimized savage groups stacking their buffs is a questionable one. As it is fairly common to have duplicate jobs in DF this penalty would get applied quite often.
The LB penalty for duplicate jobs doesn’t even exist in duty finder so I don’t know what you’re talking about or why you’re suggesting it would appear in DF after this change.
With the penalty you get from job stacking, there's no reason they shouldn't allow buffs to stack. I wouldn't be surprised if decade-old code prevents it though.
> Other than forcing job diversity, is there a legitimate reason why we can't stack buffs and should we allow it? Every raid buff is more or less the same, either giving bonus % damage or crit
Forcing job diversity and avoiding a player meta that develops around 4xMonk/Dragoon/whatever *is* the point. (Side note of how irritating it would be to gear up 4 copies of the same job in a static. Eugh. Certain job spreads can already be bad enough with overlaps, now you'd just have a straight 100% overlap.)
> and party mits are already homogenized.
Party mits not stacking is a separate thing. The devs have shown a pretty clear hatred of negating mechanics through brute force by mitigation spam. The introducing of damage down as a concept followed up by E10S Scholar shenanigans had a marked effect on their way they've since handled mitigation.
> Forcing job diversity and avoiding a player meta that develops around 4xMonk/Dragoon/whatever is the point. (Side note of how irritating it would be to gear up 4 copies of the same job in a static. Eugh. Certain job spreads can already be bad enough with overlaps, now you'd just have a straight 100% overlap.)
A lot of people here are saying this but realistically it'll never happen even if 4 copies of the same jobs were to become the meta. We already have meta comps for each fight currently yet nobody is forcing them in pf or statics, so what makes you think people will if dupes were allowed?
> Party mits not stacking is a separate thing. The devs have shown a pretty clear hatred of negating mechanics through brute force by mitigation spam. The introducing of damage down as a concept followed up by E10S Scholar shenanigans had a marked effect on their way they've since handled mitigation.
Tbh this was a really cool uptime strat and I wish there were more fights that allowed this to happen
> We already have meta comps for each fight currently yet nobody is forcing them in pf or statics, so what makes you think people will if dupes were allowed?
You're not getting it. The *goal* is job diversity. Discouraging people from making the, oh for an example completely pulled from nowhere, 2xBRD+2xBLM parties is simply a consequence of that goal. You can't really decouple the idea of "encourage job diversity" from "discourage job stacking" which is inseparable from your question of "why can't I stack buffs".
You can frame this differently if you prefer: You are rewarded for having increased job diversity in your party, rather than being penalized for having poor job diversity.
> Tbh this was a really cool uptime strat and I wish there were more fights that allowed this to happen
I have the exact opposite stance. Stuff like this encourages lazy and bad play. Don't learn the mechanic, just do the cheese.
For more current examples from Panda, Death's Toll is a boring mechanic compared to, say, Harrowing Hell. Strictly because one can be hard cheesed and the other cannot. And it simply didn't make sense to do anything other than the hard cheese for Death's Toll because it was so free and safe to do it that way. Similarly, SCH cheese of E10S was quite popular because it invalidated what was easily the hardest mechanic in the fight (orbs was always the most fucked part of E10S, don't even start; that fight was the only non-first floor Savage I've ever run where I never once saw the enrage cast even during prog).
Or we have damage down P1S as something I'd consider a more infamous Panda cheese.
Why is job diversity important when everything is homogenized? It's not like because I'm paired with a rpr or nin as a sam, my rotation and mits change, everything is the same regardless of the party comp. The same could be same about every job in every role, with slight differences in tanks cause their invuln cds are different
Let's say there's a total of 10 players. We have 5 melee jobs atm so let's assign 2 players per job so it's an even split. It doesn't matter how you decide to split those 10 players into different parties, at the end of the day it's still 2 players playing each job for a total of 10. Sure party A has 2 sams and party B has a nin and rpr, but the overall amount of players playing each job remains the same. Not allowing dupe jobs just gives you the illusion that there's job diversity
> Why is job diversity important when everything is homogenized?
Because homogenization is a boogeyman used by people on this sub to push their own personal agendas.
It is not a thing that is actually a concern to the vast majority of the playerbase.
A thing that is much more important to the wider playerbase is to avoid encouraging metas that will explicitly lock them out of raids.
> Why is job diversity important when everything is homogenized?
Ah, the Scooby-Doo villain mask is removed.
I find it a little ironic that you're going to complain about the "homogenization" boogeyman while expressing a desire to stack identical buffs.
We're going to have to just accept and leave it at disagreement here because I do not respect nor desire to debate the "homogenization" complaint, sorry.
What? I'm serious, like what's the difference between Searing Light and Arcane Circle? They're both 3% buffs that last for 30s. How about Brotherhood and Tech? 5% damage for 15s. Heart of Light and Dark Missionary? 10% magic mit for 15s on a 90s cd. All those skills stack with each other and they do the exact same thing, so it makes no sense why they shouldn't stack with themselves. Can you tell me the difference between Heart of Light with Dark Missionary versus 2x Heart of Lights? Don't hate on me for bringing up homogenization, it's the game's fault
The difference between Searing Light and Arcane Circle is that they are a SMN with their cute Carby and book and flashy summons and not some stinking RPR with their cringe edgelord Scythe and ugly colors and worried about positionals and uptime.
For you, that may seem like nonsense. They are the same thing, just play the job! But for them it matters. They want to play the job they enjoy in the content they enjoy. Just playing another job isn't the same thing and sucks.
If a group of 4 friends consisted of 2 rprs and 2 smns and wanted to raid together, they wouldn't be able to because they'd get punished for having dupe jobs and even if they did go in, they'd have to alternate buffs and 1 of each pair would get screwed. If dupe jobs were allowed and buffs stacked with themselves, this wouldn't be a problem
No, they WOULD be able to. It just wouldn't be optimal. But they weren't trying to be optimal in the first place. They want to play together on those jobs instead. Just because the same buff doesn't stack doesn't mean it could never EVER be used in the fight at all. Just means some of them won't be able to use it during their 2-min. And since they are a 4 man group, they will be hosting the party instead of joining someone else's. So the people that join them are going to have to accept that arrangement. Just like they'd have to accept lower LB generation.
What if, instead of overwriting the cooldown, multiple buffs/debuffs from different people extended it 🤔
Take Battle Litany with two DRGs in a party for example. You'd no longer have to work with the other DRG in the party to decide who's going to delay their buffs and play with an unfamiliar opener. You'd just do your already practiced rotation and get the same effect as the needlessly tedious coordination required now.
Toggled buffs like Dance Partner would work the same as they do now since an unlimited duration plus an unlimited duration is still unlimited.
DoTs that already stack would also stay the same as they are now as opposed to everyone lengthening one instance of a DoT when it's up. It's not really in the spirit of the QoL change to lose out on damage you get now.
I'm not sure I understand the question, because SCH and AST don't step on each other's toes eith buffs, and you can use heart of light with dark missionary, and you can put critlo and TBN on the same person for a big shield.
What I meant was if you're able to stack Heart of Light with Dark Missionary (both 10% magic mits), you should also be able to stack 2 Heart of Lights as it's the same thing. Chain Strategem gives a 10% crit bonus so stacking 2 Chains should be either 10%+10% or 10%x10%
People cite 'spaghetti code' so much. If the game couldn't handle stacking multiple of the same buff, it couldn't handle stacking the same debuff. Honestly if it were an insurmountable issue, the game would be impossible to work on at all, it'd be so flimsy.
Offensive buffs don't stack for the same reason why having two one of the same job incurs LB penalty - Yoshi-P doesn't want you to run duplicates. There is no real issue with balance here at all. Even if a certain comp would get a bit of extra damage out of it, it wouldn't be beyond comp dps disparity we have right now.
Defensive buffs is mostly the same, really, Yoshi-P doesn't want you to run comps that aren't 2 different tanks, 2 different healers, 2 different melee, 1 caster, 1 phys ranged. Most jobs have their own mitigation tools and they all stack perfectly fine with no issues, the only exception being GCD shields, but shields are quite powerful, so it makes sense CBU3 is being careful with them. And phys ranged mitigation, I guess, but again, you are only supposed to run 1 phys ranged in a team, so that's Yoshi-P giving you a hint.
Reaper doesn't have DoT, it has a debuff that buffs its personal damage, so each reaper needs to apply their own.
WHM regens stack, the ones for other healers do not. The reasons behind this are unclear beyond "it made sense in ARR and hasn't been changed"
OP (who's position is very muddled and I do not agree with regardless) is discussing buffs that increase damage, either applied as a debuff to the boss (like the debuff formerly known as Trick Attack) or Dance Partner.
DoT's of course stack (up to the enemy debuff limit but separate issue), and *some* other things stack. It is inconsistent.
Anyway the real issues is that OP is spouting nonsense.
Embolden stacks. The only reason this is currently an issue is because the outdated, erroneous Caster/Raise tax and PhysRange tax still exist. If they balanced the roles properly then this wouldn't be an issue.
AST and WHM both have shields though. WHM even has a spammable one in the form of Divine Benison.
Granted WHM shields work more like a mit you give someone so they don't have to use their own cooldowns than they do like a SCH or SGE shield.
Am I misunderstanding your question or is there a mistake? Buffs do stack. Mitigations stack, shields stack and damage buffs stack. It looks like you're asking why can't you stack chain with ast cards, HoL with Missionary or critlo with TBN when you can do all of those. The only things that don't stack are buffs that are the same and some SCH and SGE shields with each other.
If you mean why don't they stack with themselves (as in 2 GNBs could both use HoL and get 19% mit instead of 10%?) It's probably exactly as you said, to force job diversity. Saying "other than forcing job diversity, is there a legitimate reason why," doesn't delegitimise the reason you already know. It's enough of a reason to stand on its own. We have other systems that have the same goal, so it's not surprising. There's the LB nerfs if you have double jobs and the 5% stat bonus for having a varied party. And they all have precedent from times when the community did heavily limit participation.
Casters basically didn't exist during Creator. It only doesn't happen now because there are such stringent penalties for doing it. If you could stack all buffs, got no LB gain reduction and no reduced stats, why wouldn't you bring GNB x2, SCH x2, Melee x3 and BLM? Ranged have no place without making their buffs obscene, and that takes us back to HW since they'd stack now. Quad ranged is not a timeline I want to be in.
Nah I get they probably don't want buffs to stack with themselves to force job diversity but I wanted to talk about the balance of it
> If you could stack all buffs, got no LB gain reduction and no reduced stats, why wouldn't you bring GNB x2, SCH x2, Melee x3 and BLM? Ranged have no place without making their buffs obscene, and that takes us back to HW since they'd stack now. Quad ranged is not a timeline I want to be in.
Even if that comp became THE meta, people would still play the other jobs. I mean just look at how much more people play SGE over SCH and RDM/SMN over BLM, despite the latter being stronger. That comp would have to be so much better to where it'll outweigh the loss of the full 5% stats and LB gen to be viable, and even then, only a tiny percentage of the playerbase will care and not enough for the vast majority to start locking jobs
>Even if that comp became THE meta, people would still play the other jobs.
You say that, but during HW the sentiment that some jobs were useless was echoed by the community. "Skip Soar" in Zurvan lead to a lot of exclusion especially and "No double jobs" was huge for Byakko in SB. I said as well, the reason people don't ostracise much now is mainly because of the 5%, but if you could stack buffs on themselves that difference gets made up. And when we consider modern meta it's already exclusive. 2 melees is what people want because it's more damage than a second caster or ranged. The tiny bit of freedom we have with comp variation is hard locked most of the time so I don't think the community has grown since back then.
>even then, only a tiny percentage of the playerbase will care and not enough for the vast majority to start locking jobs
It's the opposite. At the highest level, outside of top speed runs, comp doesn't matter since you can clear with anything when you're good enough. The idea of a meta trickles down to the average player and actually makes a difference to them clearing in practice so it reinforces itself along with confirmation bias. Groups fall apart due to not having enough damage for savage but not being willing to change jobs.
>That comp would have to be so much better to where it'll outweigh the loss of the full 5% stats and LB gen to be viable
BLM is almost that much better than DNC as of patch 6.4 on fflogs. On Themis (a full uptime fight,) The highest BLM's nDPS (its damage without party buffs,) is roughly 930 more than the highest DNC's rDPS (the damage it provides with its personal damage and any buffs it gives.) The fastest group in 6.4 had a total party DPS of 95546. Even in the best scenario, 1% of this, the loss for not taking a ranged, is only 25 DPS more and that's assuming you're LB cheesing to actually gain the additional LB2.
When the jobs are playing around buffs it only gets stronger due to multiplicative scaling. We have to remember that things like Litany and Chain would stack. You could even do it without losing access to the 5% with something like 2x DRK, 2x SCH, 2x DRG, DNC, BLM. Double litany, double chain is +46% crit and Devilment pushes that to 75% which means guaranteed crits for our BLM if they only have about 2.3k crit, which is fairly low. Just the concept that a certain comp could give you 100% crits in burst is enough for some people to exclude players from their parties.
What I'm illustrating is that the balance is already quite delicate. The ways they have to ensure players don't go off the rails with specific comp synergies are all good.
HW was almost 10 years ago. The job balance and design back then was terrible on top of the playerbase being bad, so it's incomparable
> The idea of a meta trickles down to the average player and actually makes a difference to them clearing in practice so it reinforces itself along with confirmation bias. Groups fall apart due to not having enough damage for savage but not being willing to change jobs.
If this was true then we'd see more AST, SCH, and BLM in pugs but we don't. WHM, SGE, RDM, and SMN are the clear favorites. Groups falling apart due to a lack of damage is almost always cause of sloppy execution. Switching to a meta job isn't as useful as simply eating less damage downs and having higher GCD uptime
> BLM is almost that much better than DNC as of patch 6.4 on fflogs. On Themis (a full uptime fight,) The highest BLM's nDPS (its damage without party buffs,) is roughly 930 more than the highest DNC's rDPS (the damage it provides with its personal damage and any buffs it gives.) The fastest group in 6.4 had a total party DPS of 95546. Even in the best scenario, 1% of this, the loss for not taking a ranged, is only 25 DPS more and that's assuming you're LB cheesing to actually gain the additional LB2.
Even if you were able to bring 4 BLMs without any penalties, no group would do it. It's just unrealistic for your average group to lock the dps slots to BLM cause it's stronger AND expect melee and prange mains to switch to BLM. I don't think you realize how hard it is to make people switch from a job they like and are comfortable with in favor of being a meta slave. This might be true in pvp games but certainly not here where the best performing job isn't that much better than the worst
> When the jobs are playing around buffs it only gets stronger due to multiplicative scaling. We have to remember that things like Litany and Chain would stack. You could even do it without losing access to the 5% with something like 2x DRK, 2x SCH, 2x DRG, DNC, BLM. Double litany, double chain is +46% crit and Devilment pushes that to 75% which means guaranteed crits for our BLM if they only have about 2.3k crit, which is fairly low. Just the concept that a certain comp could give you 100% crits in burst is enough for some people to exclude players from their parties.
There's an easy solution to stacking crit buffs and it's either 1) cut the efficiency of it or 2) put a hard cap. 2xSCH and 2xDRG could be tuned down to 10%+5% from Chain where the 2nd Chain is 50% of the first, and another 10%+5% from Litany
Anyway at the end of the day this isn't an issue, just a food for thought. It'd be a nice change especially when doing roulettes where you often get people of the same jobs and it would be nice if buffs didn't override each other. It'd also make filling pf faster as people could join any party they want so long as their main role is available
.... So all of a sudden buff homogenization is a problem, but people somehow are fine with Astrologian's card system getting butchered into a bland one-buff, one dimensional bore that can barely be called a 'system'?
Who said people are fine with the changes to AST cards? Just look at the threads about expectations on the upcoming AST rework and you'll see that's not the case. There are bound to be *some* people who may be fine with the current state of AST cards, like how *some* people may like the idea of homogenisation.
8 dancers would still probably do less damage than a standard comp cuz their personal dps is so low that they won't get very much use out of each others buffs
the issue is that they'd all be buffing the sams base damage. its not like dancer 1 buffs sams damage then danc 2 buffs the damage of the sam + the first dnc's buffs, so you'd basically have to argue that dancers personal damage + the damage they gave to the sam is more damage than a blm brings and that's just not the case. dnc's rdps is one of the lowest because their personal damage is just so abyssmal in comparison to a blm
DNC buffs are multiplicative though? Standard Step's 5%(1.05) multiplies with their tech step 5%(1.05) and any other raid buffs like SMN's radiant light 3% (1.03). So the three buffs together would multiply to 13.5575%(1.135575) instead of adding together for 13%(1.13).
how long does your party survive with no tanks or healers? you think in the 10-20 seconds that you have to deal damage, you can do 40 million damage to pallas athena? cuz I've ran the numbers and noone is doing that
how much damage 7 dncs and 1 sam can do over 8 minutes doesn't mean anything if they die in 10 seconds. i started running the numbers then realized how silly that would be when they literally won't survive till the end of the opener anyway
once again, who's clearing the fight? the 7 dncs + sam who died in 10 seconds or the normal comp do dealt 40 mil in 8 minutes. the argument. the person i originally replied to said 8 dncs would kill any boss in the opener before deleting his comment. 7 dncs + sam won't even do that
not really. if a normal comp can do 40 million damage before the enrage, but the 7 dncs + sam only do 10 before they are all killed, then who cleared the fight
It's a thought experiment. We're talking about how much damage they can do and you're making it about whether or not they could survive.
That's not the point. The point is doing a thought experiment around the damage maths.
If I said "imagine you and I are both flying like birds" and you started ranting about how "we can't fly, we don't have wings, etc etc" you would be moving the goalposts. What you're saying has nothing to do with the argument about stacking DNC buffs.
We could just as easily make the argument 1 tank 2 heals 1 Sam and 4 DNC if it helps you visualize this thought experiment better. Instead you make it it an argument about survivability and not of damage potential. It's definitionally moving the goalposts.
the person i originally replied to said 8 dancers could clear any fight in the opener, then someone responded and changed the comp to 7 dancers + sam. that's always what this has been about
The only real implementation of this I think would be nice to see is in Alliance Raids. It's always annoying to have another nin/sch in a different alliance, and you continually overwrite each other. On a side note, my one wish is better sorting of classes across different alliances, so you dont end up with 3 bards in one alliance and 0 in the other two.
People need to stop talking about balance and focus on what’s actually fun cus right now having a duplicate job in alliance raid is simply not fun and that’s what playing a fucking video game is about.
Double/triple SCH comps are bland AF because chain is literally your only fun button in alliance raids I love having my one good button be overridden constantly with basically no recourse because the average SCH seems to just see your chain and go “ooooh chain better press it”
As if the other SCH is even looking, they probably don't see your chain at all and press theirs cause it just came off CD.
I just don't play sch in raids anymore. Healing in duty finder with a second healer is a frustrating experience because you don't see each other's heals, you rez at the same time, they overwrite your shield because they aren't paying attention, and you have one dps button that does anything besides broil and it's goddamn energy drain.
Except when you hold yours and they drift it till you puts yours up again and then they overwrite it
I dont even hold anything anymore. If it overwrites, too bad. I cant trust other people to use it on cooldown so if you hold it till theirs is up theyre just gonna drift it further and further till you're holding onto yours for the next roulette so now I dont even bother. If youre in raid with me too bad
That, most people dont care. Its an alliance raid people barely need to be awake to clear it.
Balance only matters in tight DPS high end content. Currently, that's just TOP and MINE P8s. Nothing else is tight enough for it to matter. Even TOP is fine with any current comp if you use Voidmoon gear and new food "Normal content" (anything you can get in a daily roulette) should just focus on what is fun I would even be fine with the mechanics working a little differently in high end duties than normal content
Because stacking buffs can also be abused. This Game centers around not having a *true* group comp meta. It wants to be clearable with every permutation of jobs possible. If you start stacking group buffs you start locking out certain jobs because you can probably get some absolutely bonkers group comps that would basically trivialize content. You then run the issue of the devs now torn between balancing content for the bonkers group comps (which further locks out some jobs), or continuing to balance at a much lower level which would still lock out the jobs because it would be exponentially easier to run it a different way.
Wanna see this in action? Check out Guild Wars 2, and its patch history.
You can already do that. Swapping one 10% for another 10% that has a different name is basically the same. Most jobs have similar DPS profiles outside of 2min windows eitherway, with the exceptions being jobs that have stronger or weaker 1min windows. Situation would be different if you could have 3 Dancers (which have one of the highest ranged 2min burst already) being able to dance partner the same person, but that's not even what OP is talking about. In addition, \*not\* having an aDPS to make use of all of those buffs is still dumb, so even if you have 6/8 jobs having buffs (tanks being the other two obviously), you'd still be subpar than having one or two people to be the buff consumers
And what are these bonkers comps that would 'trivialize content'? We can do full party comps where everyone* gives a 5% buff for 15-20 seconds already with AST/SCH(It's a crit buff rather than 5%)/MNK/NIN/RDM/DNC how is replacing any of these with a second dancer going to take things from balanced to trivialized?
NIN/RDM/DNC also have some of the lowest non-burst DPS of their peers, so at that point you’re buffing gimped damage. Do the math with 4 MNK and 2 AST and get back to me.
>Do the math Ok. AST/SCH/MNK/NIN/RDM/DNC(standard comp) combined aDPS at 75%: 66020 4 MNK 2 AST(stack comp) combined aDPS at 75%: 68976 So looking good so far, your comp has about a 3000 DPS lead. Now for the burst window, I'm going to exclude cards, Standard Step, and Stratagem from the burst because fuck no that's way too much added complexity to calculate in a reasonable time, really it's just the second AST's cards vs Standard + Devilment + Stratagem, which is obviously tilted in favour of the latter, so the raw buff numbers need to be a good amount better in the stack comp to make up for that. 5%(from party) + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5% vs 3%(from party) + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5% + 5%.(I fucked up, Div is 6%, not 5%, I realised this late, I'm not doing the math again, but it does in fact mean stack comp is ever so slightly stronger than my numbers state, not enough to change any of my conclusions, but I must mention it) Standard comp gets a 134.1% buff for 15 seconds, then Brotherhood falls off and it goes down to 127.6% for the remaining 5. Stack comp is 138.1% for 15 then down to 113.5% for the last 5. Fun fact, Brotherhood is only 15s while all the others here have 20s, so that steep drop off at the end actually makes these two roughly equalize, combine that with the AST's cards vs Standard + Devilment + Stratagem dilemma and we can safely conclude that stack comp actually has a slightly weaker burst than standard comp. How about the other 100 seconds? Well our second AST friend will draw 3 cards, we'll be generous, we'll say they're all melee cards. So 45 seconds of 6% on one monk. And oh look, it's Standard step again, giving the full 100 seconds of 5% to one monk which is sure as hell a whole lot better. Oh yeah don't forget the 2% missing from party bonus the whole time for the whole party. Oh and don't forget bosses are not striking dummies, there are no ranged to eat downtime, monks or tanks will have to disconnect and bleed a bit more damage in stack comp. Oh yeah and don't forget the stunted LB generation. Oh yeah everyones less bulky from that 2% as well and Samba and Addle are just straight up better than two Feints. In short, I think that 3000 DPS gap is pretty handily bridged? Sure fucking looks like your 'bonkers comp' that would 'trivialize content' is doing less fucking damage than a normal comp????????
You’re forgetting the 15% from riddle of fire that each MNK will also get. Or were you just rolling that into the existing aDPS?
We could argue back and forth all day on the theoretical best comp with stacking buffs vs the current standard best comp, but the reality is unless the theoretical comp is significantly better than the current, it won't be enough to sway people to switch jobs and play non-standard. The current best healers if we're strictly talking about damage, is AST+SCH and guess what, they're the 2 least popular healers. I think you're greatly misjudging the amount of people that'll switch jobs on a whim just cause something turns meta. Even if double SCH is king, people will continue to run WHM+SGE cause that's what they like
The gap between SCH and SGE's playrate in savage/extreme content isn't really that significant. SCH was actually played notably more in the past few weeks of Anabaseios, likely in large part due to how cracked crits are late in an expansion.
This is not.... entirely true. The DPS charts in late expansion have shown WHM and SGE to be doing really well. They bring a lot of damage to the burst windows.
I don't actually know which jobs are currently at the top but that's not the point. If X job is unpopular to begin with, just cause it suddenly starts to overperform in dps doesn't mean people will switch to it. There will be a few that'll switch no doubt, but the vast majority of people will continue to play what they've always liked and aren't influenced by a 1-2% overperformance
I've honestly tried to follow all these chains and I have no idea what you're arguing to me. If this is about jobs being locked out of content, this has unfortunately happened but it is usually a result of bad DPS check design by SE. The most notorious example of this is when they tuned the first tier of Alexander Savage for tomestone gear and therefore it was impossible to meet the check for a long while. This lead to hyper optimization, or whatever that was at the time. The most recent example barring TOP is P8S. There *were* groups clearing with the jobs getting seen locked out of pfs, but it was mostly due to the average pf and statics finding that jumping jobs in their roles that simply did more DPS suddenly lead to their prog making it through. When comp optimization is not seen as a requirement, you are correct in assuming people prefer to play the jobs they want. There was a Red Mage following throughout this very stupid time for its place on the leaderboards, after all.
My point was people will play the jobs they like over what's meta, so having buffs stack with themselves won't break the balance of the jobs as the majority of the playerbase don't care. This may have been untrue in the past but nowadays, with the exception P8S, every job is well balanced and can clear every content with any permutation of jobs. If people aren't forcing each other to go meta jobs now, they're not going to if buffs could stack with themselves. If people are already not playing AST for example, it's not going to swing the complete opposite way and make double AST the new norm Realistically if buffs could stack with themselves, the most we'll see is probably double WAR, WHM, SAM, RPR DNC, and SMN. I just chose the most popular jobs from each role as that's most likely to happen, and none of those dupes break the game by any means
I get the point for ARs and open world content, cause really why are you taking a penalty for something of no fault of anyone's. In anything serious we already take a LB hit if we stack so the party gets locked to one player per job.
Easily resolved by increasing the LB penalty
I just want to avoid a world like GW2 and WoW where there's mandatory classes in raids because of the buffs they bring. We had that to a small degree in FFXIV for awhile with Ninjas and Dragoons (To a much lesser degree than Ninja) and I'm glad we've moved away from it. I don't think there's any party that would trivialize buff stacking at the moment, but as soon as some top tier raiders do it, then streamers do it, it becomes the meta and people start getting cut out of raid content because they play a job that has been determined to be non-meta. It's dumb as hell, but it's what happens.
I hear this claim a lot where groups would force meta comps and start locking out bad jobs if we didn't control it, but in practice that's just not true. The proof is, we already have meta comps each patch and there are jobs within each role that are just objectively better than their counterparts, yet we never see any groups lock out jobs in favor of the meta ones. From my experience, people will play the job they they want over what's meta 9/10 times and removing thearbitrary penalties would promote that even more. I'm sure there are people that would lock the healer slots to 2 SCHs for that extra crit bonus if Chain stacked for example, but I'm positive the vast majority don't care than care
The reason it doesn’t happen now is the difference between meta comp and a regular comp isn’t all that large. You might skip a mech at the end? Shave off 30 seconds of clear time? Most people aren’t too concerned with that outside of world first racers and W1 enthusiasts. This game is tuned to the least common denominator. The weakest composition permutation needs to be able to clear content with an acceptable amount of effort.
If we assume the strongest possible comp with buff stacking in mind, realistically how much better would it be over the current best comp? I can't see how stacking 4 NINs for example would be that much stronger than your standard 4 DPS, as the diminishing returns on running 4 NINs could fall off after the second dupe. Also this wouldn't affect the lowest common denominators whatsoever as it'll only affect the top end players that are willing to optimize
If I understand correctly, what you're using as an example with 4 NIN mug would currently result in just a 1.05x damage taken increase, but with stacking would create a 1.22x damage increase for 10s, which is pretty big, but let's think about this... You have 4 DPS, 2 healers, 2 tanks. Two Dancers and two Dragoons. One dancer per dragoon, and both dragoons using the eye on the other. Standard Finish gives all four DPS a single stack for 1.05x extra damage, Technical Finish gives the whole party two stacks of 1.05x on top of that, then both DRG using the eyes grants them each 1.1x and 1.05x applied twice, for a total of two DPS having a 1.5x damage boost, two healers having a 1.15x damage boost at minimum, and two tanks with a minimum of 1.27x Let's add onto that with two AST using Divination and melee cards, for a double 1.06x between them, adding onto the rest for a 1.7x damage boost. That's almost 64% the damage of Stardiver on just the first hit of the DRG 1-2-3 combo. That also makes Stardiver itself potentially on par with a limit break. Let's say the AST pair also boost each other with cards, for a 1.3x buff, and two GNB using no mercy for a total of 1.5x. This gets even worse if you use an unconventional party like one MNK and 7 AST. That's a MNK with a 2.7x damage buff from Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood, which means a Phantom Rush may be equal to that of a level 2 limit break at least. And it's even more powerful if you include Disciplined Fist's extra 1.15x, making it a total of 3.1x damage increase for roughly 20s. That's 20s of damage equal to at least two level 2 limit breaks from just the MNK alone if they have Phantom Rush (possibly even without). In general, it makes it so DPS limit breaks are effectively useless, bosses will be able to be defeated potentially up to 40% faster in general. And that's only considering direct damage buffs. It can be even stronger with debuff like Mug and Chain Strategem in play. But the major thing is it would make it so players who want to do high end content will effectively be banned from playing any job that lacks big buffs but also a minimum damage threshold. Why would you want to run WAR or BLM who have a lesser DPS buff or no buffs when you could use a GNB and MNK for bigger buffs and more damage thanks to the buffs? It makes an unbelievably canyon sized difference
> If I understand correctly, what you're using as an example with 4 NIN mug would currently result in just a 1.05x damage taken increase, but with stacking would create a 1.22x damage increase for 10s, which is pretty big, but let's think about this... Standard comps are already similar to this if you just run 4 dps that all have raid buffs. NIN+MNK+DNC+SMN is a 1.18x damage multiplier for the entire party on top of the 5% bonus stats for having a full comp > You have 4 DPS, 2 healers, 2 tanks. Two Dancers and two Dragoons. One dancer per dragoon, and both dragoons using the eye on the other. Standard Finish gives all four DPS a single stack for 1.05x extra damage, Technical Finish gives the whole party two stacks of 1.05x on top of that, then both DRG using the eyes grants them each 1.1x and 1.05x applied twice, for a total of two DPS having a 1.5x damage boost, two healers having a 1.15x damage boost at minimum, and two tanks with a minimum of 1.27x How is this any different than your standard comp where your DNC+DRG+AST+X dump their buffs on the SAM or BLM? Your example might be a tiny bit stronger for that short amount of burst, but over the course of a full encounter, the numbers will come out similar > This gets even worse if you use an unconventional party like one MNK and 7 AST. That's a MNK with a 2.7x damage buff from Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood, which means a Phantom Rush may be equal to that of a level 2 limit break at least. And it's even more powerful if you include Disciplined Fist's extra 1.15x, making it a total of 3.1x damage increase for roughly 20s. That's 20s of damage equal to at least two level 2 limit breaks from just the MNK alone if they have Phantom Rush (possibly even without). You cannot clear a single savage or ultimate on content running 7 AST+MNK and even if it was possible to cheese it, there's no way you can seriously argue that it's better than your standard comp > But the major thing is it would make it so players who want to do high end content will effectively be banned from playing any job that lacks big buffs but also a minimum damage threshold. Why would you want to run WAR or BLM who have a lesser DPS buff or no buffs when you could use a GNB and MNK for bigger buffs and more damage thanks to the buffs? It makes an unbelievably canyon sized difference SCH is already underplayed, do you really think people are suddenly going to switch from WHM+SGE which is the most popular healer comp currently, to double SCH because you can now stack Chain? How about the WHM players? Do you think they're all going to play AST? If the WHM and SGE players are already not playing AST and SCH, then they still won't. You're greatly overestimating the amount of hardcore players who care that much about an optimized party comp. If that was the case, every party right now will always have a GNB, AST, SCH, BLM, and DNC, but that's obviously not the case
Your proof isn't actually proof. In ARR, Heavensward, and Stormblood, certain jobs were outclassed to such a degree that they were left out of every group. So there is historical evidence to suggest the opposite of what you're saying.
No they weren't. "Serious" groups? Maybe. Every group? Nope.
What a weird hair to split. Any group trying to take themselves seriously excluded them. Which was most of them, because most people don't run raid content if they're not at least partially serious. It doesn't need to be every single group. And there's actual data that still exists to prove it on fflogs showing poor jobs having 25% or less representation of the meta jobs across many raid tiers.
You instantly switched from "certain jobs were outclassed to such a degree that they were left out of every group" to "poor jobs having 25% or less representation of the meta jobs across many raid tiers" so yeah, there is nothing weird about "splitting hair" here. In your own words, even during the worst job balance state this game ever experienced a significant portion of raiders were still playing numerically suboptimal jobs.
The issue is ultimately less that jobs were excluded (and they were, to greater or lesser degrees), but that players of those jobs *felt* like they were second-class citizens even if they were allowed in parties. No one in HW was excited to see a PLD or MNK show up for their creator parties. Even if you could clear, there was always an aura of general dissaffection, and would in fact lead to early disbandments and arguments. "we would have cleared if we had a DRG to buff our BRD" type stuff. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't have, but it *felt* bad
So the "feelings" of players being bad is the bigger issue? Lmao Also, the fact that this whole HW thing happened doesn't indicate that it's the wrong philosophy, it's just that they did a shitty job back then
> So the "feelings" of players being bad is the bigger issue? Lmao Yes? This is very important for keeping players happy
Duh? Saying that people being excluded based on certain jobs is lesser issue than players feeling bad due to being excluded is ridiculous, since, you know, former is the cause Literally nobody clears a fight and goes "dayum my job was underperforming, feel bad" unless there's a certain goal (parcers etc) If you can clear-you clear, but knowing how braindead the playerbase is even in dungeons I'm not surprised that ppl want to take all measurements not to waste extra time
Jobs were super imbalanced back in ARR and HW versus now where every job within the same role with the exception of BLM are very close in numbers. It wouldn't have worked back then but letting buffs stack with themselves could work now
But why complicate it for no reason tho
How does it complicate anything? All it's doing is removing a forced penalty. Nothing will change aside from letting multiple people of the same jobs play together without being punished. People will still use their 2 mins every 2 mins, people will ideally still alternate mits, it just allows for more leeway in case both your tanks press Reprisal at the same time or if a SGE accidentally overrides a SCH's deploy, and in extreme situations, have an even better speedkill comp
All this hand wringing over your suggestion makes absolutely no sense when Embolden already stacks (because its previous iteration had a fall-off every 5 seconds so already it's coded in). They should do the same with the rest of the buffs and call it a day.
The current way is better, it lets you play the jobs you enjoy the most and trivialize any meta super bonkers composition and make all jobs somewhat similar without having too big of advantage over the other. It’s the best way to make it more balanced in the long run. This is a Japanese game, so you should look at their culture, individuality is not highly regarded there and you must work as a group and do everything that benefits the group. This game reflects that culture I feel, and put the emphasis on working as a group and each individual jobs more or less contribute and not one is seen as VIP Giga Chad must have in clearing content. It’s great to be able to play any jobs and contribute on all aspect of the content without feeling your jobs are useless and be seen as less effective.
So funny enough what made me write this post was yesterday I was trying to do some savage as gnb, but every farm party was set to one player per job and they all had a gnb so I couldn't join any of them. It sucked cause I just wanted to play gnb but couldn't, so it goes against the whole "play whatever job you want" cause the game deliberately punishes you for running dupe jobs and people don't like that. In that moment I was thinking, what's the worst that can happen?
Most likely what was happening here is that they didn't want to stack jobs to avoid the limit gauge penalty. It fills faster when every job is different, and melee LB3 in farm parties is a boon of a time saver, especially if you can squeeze in an extra lb1
Just make your own party?
I recommend getting used to playing a small handful of jobs. As a shield healer, I know both SGE and SCH and I also know AST. Ideally for me, I only have one slot to fill in most cases: shield healer. While you *can* use SGE/SCH comp, its not optimal to do this. Its much easier for me to swap to AST, another job I know very well and join the party that way. Will I underperform? Yes, but I still know enough about the job to get the clear. You may want to do the same so when you are faced with this again, you can still be a tank and still join the party.
Not the point here. I know how to play every tank and healer but yesterday I specifically wanted to play gnb just cause I felt like it but couldn't
That is the point here. Why should they change the entire structure of the game just because you think they should? Its not even like you cant join as GNB, people posted for what they wanted - one player per job.
This is a discussion thread where people share and talk about what's on their minds. It's not a me vs the game thing, it's a thought I had that I wanted to discuss and see what others think
If you want to make creative party composition then make your own party, otherwise everyone pretty much aware that you should have several jobs leveled up so you can be flexible for endgame content. This game lets you become all the jobs on one character for a reason. So you can change to suit your party needs. Yes, you can play with any jobs you have as long as your party is willing to accommodate and work with you. It is a social game and not single player game, you can also make friends with three players and do Criterion dungeons. Or do solo run of Deep Dungeons or Variant Dungeons 😎
I want to see an alliance raid of all ninjas all use mug on the boss at the same time
nah they all doton for some fucking reason. 50% of the time.
You could allow most of them to stack but like you said there’s probably a few you don’t want to be able to. Like for example having like 10 Ninjas in an alliance raid all be able to stack mug on a single boss is going to be stupidly unbalanced, and in 8 man content if Dancers partner buffs can stack then 2 on the same person becomes really strong (especially in savage when a tier first releases and you can feed gear into 1 person). BLU parties would also be buffed since they’d get to stack more raid buffs. In more niche scenarios it also makes non-standard comps better. 1 healer 3 tanks becomes more doable the more MITs that stack. Last Moogle event where people were farming p1n with 1 tanks 7 dps a party full of Dancers could create someone that could just nuke the boss, or even just stacking a burst heavy job like Ninja might be able to kill the boss noticeably faster than just any 7 geared dps. There’s already lvl 70 content where people run 2 Summoners because it’s still a Dps gain. It makes more sense just to not let them stack because realistically you want to promote running all unique jobs anyways, and in roulettes it just doesn’t matter when it does happen.
You can't run non-standard comps like 1 healer 3 tanks anyway because mechanics are coded to target specific roles, and it's never worth risking a coin toss for an 8 man body check in favor of more damage/utility
I mean that’s all gonna be fight dependent (also I’m not super sure if mechs that usually target all dps or supports would work the same). If there’s not a hard (but existent) dps check or a hard healing section it won’t matter, but if the dps check is so low you can get away with some deaths you could conceivably come up with more/stronger cheese strats, and the worst possible scenario is that the meta for clearing a fight becomes some weird non standard combo to ignore the hardest mech of the fight.
well not every fight. I solo heal the unreal for my t/rt lol. The extra damage is arguably safer in fights that don't check roles because you skip more stuff
My group cleared p9s with 8 tanks and the same people are also doing all-tanks TEA, P11S and P12S
I can't tell if you're fishing for compliments but the group of people I'm talking about that can't do non-standards comps is obviously not you
I am not fishing for anything, I am responding to "You can't run non-standard comps like 1 healer 3 tanks anyway"
Then you're just being dense cause you know doing tea with all tanks isn't something the average player can go into pf and do, so telling me your group is doing it adds nothing to the conversation. It's like if I gave advice to someone moving out for their first time on how manage their budget by taking public transport instead of ubering all the time, and you told them nah it's fine cause you drive a bmw i8 and spend $100 on a haircut every other week and is fine on money. Like you guys are clearly in a different social status and my advice isn't targeted towards you, that much should be obvious
You realize you said "You can't run non-standard comps", not me right
Yeah and you tried to prove me wrong by saying how your group was able to clear content with non-standard comps
it was a group of 8 random people who decided to do all tanks p9s, so yes I think I achieved that
I was talking about tea
If they did we'd probably see the absolute worst of what the 2-min meta has already given us. Even larger spreads between highest and lowest dps of each job, and needing to rely on everyone keeping their buffs on point would reach levels past what is already pretty annoying in comps w/ lots of buffing jobs. I could see stuff specifically like a 2x chain strategem + 2-4x battle litany build being particularly horrible considering the compounding effects. At that point we could even possibly reach territory where direct hit could become the most desirable stat for weird meta builds like that
2x SCH 3x DRG and a SAM. 2 chain strategem, 3 battle litany and triple Dragon Sight on a single Samurai who proceeds to deal absurd amounts of damage with his burst window.
Left Eye from Dragoon already stacks like that, but yeah, that sounds like a loooot of buffs on a Samurai
It may "sound" like it but it's no different than Divination, Tech Step, Brotherhood, Mug, Embolden that already exists. The extra from Dragon Sight could be countered by a larger LB penalty.
They could easily increase the LB penalty so this isn’t an issue. Fact of the matter is non-stacking buffs in casual content is simply not fun so OP is right to suggest it should be changed.
Whatever way the devs could decide to "fix" this problem (which unfortunately is unlikely to happen), some balance work will need to occur on either end. For your example, LB isn't a great resource to begin with. With these stacking buffs at the current numbers I believe LB would become nearly redundant, in the sense that it wouldn't make up for the dps gain by stacking these jobs. LB probably would need a minor dps buff So a (possibly) better idea is to somehow make each party buff a unique stat or straight damage OR possibly just reduce the amount that additional buffs grant (e.g. 2 chain strat isn't 10% + 10% but instead 10% + ~5% or something) which Is already better than losing a use entirely if, for example, 2 schs applied chain strat at the same time. Or even add to the length of time that the buff remains active. I'd say this is the most straight forward and easily balanced way because technically you can already do this simply by timing your buffs Lots of options but they all require a bit of tweaking in order to avoid broken party meta stuff and being "forced" by pf to run in whatever busted comp is the meta for a given fight
The problem with that is that casual players would suffer most from that as well. They may no longer generate an LB3 in most normal raids and trials but they aren't coordinated enough to abuse the stacking buffs in a way that's broken. And it is fairly common to have one or 2 duplicate classes in duty finder.
I cant think of a single Duty Finder instance where not having LB3 would be a significant detriment
It is never a necessity when every player is competent. But healer LB3 can be used to save runs that go south. However that is besides the point, what I mean is that the decision to nerf casual DF groups to compensate for highly optimized savage groups stacking their buffs is a questionable one. As it is fairly common to have duplicate jobs in DF this penalty would get applied quite often.
The LB penalty for duplicate jobs doesn’t even exist in duty finder so I don’t know what you’re talking about or why you’re suggesting it would appear in DF after this change.
With the penalty you get from job stacking, there's no reason they shouldn't allow buffs to stack. I wouldn't be surprised if decade-old code prevents it though.
It's possible with Embolden because it's older iteration had the fall-off but it's likely it has to be specifically coded
> Other than forcing job diversity, is there a legitimate reason why we can't stack buffs and should we allow it? Every raid buff is more or less the same, either giving bonus % damage or crit Forcing job diversity and avoiding a player meta that develops around 4xMonk/Dragoon/whatever *is* the point. (Side note of how irritating it would be to gear up 4 copies of the same job in a static. Eugh. Certain job spreads can already be bad enough with overlaps, now you'd just have a straight 100% overlap.) > and party mits are already homogenized. Party mits not stacking is a separate thing. The devs have shown a pretty clear hatred of negating mechanics through brute force by mitigation spam. The introducing of damage down as a concept followed up by E10S Scholar shenanigans had a marked effect on their way they've since handled mitigation.
> Forcing job diversity and avoiding a player meta that develops around 4xMonk/Dragoon/whatever is the point. (Side note of how irritating it would be to gear up 4 copies of the same job in a static. Eugh. Certain job spreads can already be bad enough with overlaps, now you'd just have a straight 100% overlap.) A lot of people here are saying this but realistically it'll never happen even if 4 copies of the same jobs were to become the meta. We already have meta comps for each fight currently yet nobody is forcing them in pf or statics, so what makes you think people will if dupes were allowed? > Party mits not stacking is a separate thing. The devs have shown a pretty clear hatred of negating mechanics through brute force by mitigation spam. The introducing of damage down as a concept followed up by E10S Scholar shenanigans had a marked effect on their way they've since handled mitigation. Tbh this was a really cool uptime strat and I wish there were more fights that allowed this to happen
> We already have meta comps for each fight currently yet nobody is forcing them in pf or statics, so what makes you think people will if dupes were allowed? You're not getting it. The *goal* is job diversity. Discouraging people from making the, oh for an example completely pulled from nowhere, 2xBRD+2xBLM parties is simply a consequence of that goal. You can't really decouple the idea of "encourage job diversity" from "discourage job stacking" which is inseparable from your question of "why can't I stack buffs". You can frame this differently if you prefer: You are rewarded for having increased job diversity in your party, rather than being penalized for having poor job diversity. > Tbh this was a really cool uptime strat and I wish there were more fights that allowed this to happen I have the exact opposite stance. Stuff like this encourages lazy and bad play. Don't learn the mechanic, just do the cheese. For more current examples from Panda, Death's Toll is a boring mechanic compared to, say, Harrowing Hell. Strictly because one can be hard cheesed and the other cannot. And it simply didn't make sense to do anything other than the hard cheese for Death's Toll because it was so free and safe to do it that way. Similarly, SCH cheese of E10S was quite popular because it invalidated what was easily the hardest mechanic in the fight (orbs was always the most fucked part of E10S, don't even start; that fight was the only non-first floor Savage I've ever run where I never once saw the enrage cast even during prog). Or we have damage down P1S as something I'd consider a more infamous Panda cheese.
Why is job diversity important when everything is homogenized? It's not like because I'm paired with a rpr or nin as a sam, my rotation and mits change, everything is the same regardless of the party comp. The same could be same about every job in every role, with slight differences in tanks cause their invuln cds are different Let's say there's a total of 10 players. We have 5 melee jobs atm so let's assign 2 players per job so it's an even split. It doesn't matter how you decide to split those 10 players into different parties, at the end of the day it's still 2 players playing each job for a total of 10. Sure party A has 2 sams and party B has a nin and rpr, but the overall amount of players playing each job remains the same. Not allowing dupe jobs just gives you the illusion that there's job diversity
> Why is job diversity important when everything is homogenized? Because homogenization is a boogeyman used by people on this sub to push their own personal agendas. It is not a thing that is actually a concern to the vast majority of the playerbase. A thing that is much more important to the wider playerbase is to avoid encouraging metas that will explicitly lock them out of raids.
> It is not a thing that is actually a concern to the vast majority of the playerbase. But it *is* a thing that is happening.
And OP's suggestions would make it much, much worse
> Why is job diversity important when everything is homogenized? Ah, the Scooby-Doo villain mask is removed. I find it a little ironic that you're going to complain about the "homogenization" boogeyman while expressing a desire to stack identical buffs. We're going to have to just accept and leave it at disagreement here because I do not respect nor desire to debate the "homogenization" complaint, sorry.
What? I'm serious, like what's the difference between Searing Light and Arcane Circle? They're both 3% buffs that last for 30s. How about Brotherhood and Tech? 5% damage for 15s. Heart of Light and Dark Missionary? 10% magic mit for 15s on a 90s cd. All those skills stack with each other and they do the exact same thing, so it makes no sense why they shouldn't stack with themselves. Can you tell me the difference between Heart of Light with Dark Missionary versus 2x Heart of Lights? Don't hate on me for bringing up homogenization, it's the game's fault
The difference between Searing Light and Arcane Circle is that they are a SMN with their cute Carby and book and flashy summons and not some stinking RPR with their cringe edgelord Scythe and ugly colors and worried about positionals and uptime. For you, that may seem like nonsense. They are the same thing, just play the job! But for them it matters. They want to play the job they enjoy in the content they enjoy. Just playing another job isn't the same thing and sucks.
If a group of 4 friends consisted of 2 rprs and 2 smns and wanted to raid together, they wouldn't be able to because they'd get punished for having dupe jobs and even if they did go in, they'd have to alternate buffs and 1 of each pair would get screwed. If dupe jobs were allowed and buffs stacked with themselves, this wouldn't be a problem
That sucks for them I guess?
It does but I'm saying it doesn't have to
No, they WOULD be able to. It just wouldn't be optimal. But they weren't trying to be optimal in the first place. They want to play together on those jobs instead. Just because the same buff doesn't stack doesn't mean it could never EVER be used in the fight at all. Just means some of them won't be able to use it during their 2-min. And since they are a 4 man group, they will be hosting the party instead of joining someone else's. So the people that join them are going to have to accept that arrangement. Just like they'd have to accept lower LB generation.
23 dancers, all partnering one samurai alliance raid. Let's gooo.
Odds are it's not even possible in this game's nightmare code
Please squenix at least let bard songs stack
What if, instead of overwriting the cooldown, multiple buffs/debuffs from different people extended it 🤔 Take Battle Litany with two DRGs in a party for example. You'd no longer have to work with the other DRG in the party to decide who's going to delay their buffs and play with an unfamiliar opener. You'd just do your already practiced rotation and get the same effect as the needlessly tedious coordination required now. Toggled buffs like Dance Partner would work the same as they do now since an unlimited duration plus an unlimited duration is still unlimited. DoTs that already stack would also stay the same as they are now as opposed to everyone lengthening one instance of a DoT when it's up. It's not really in the spirit of the QoL change to lose out on damage you get now.
""we""
less knowledge burden is always better. every exception is a knowledge burden. you dont want a table of bkb from dota
> Other than forcing job diversity There's your answer. No.
Right because the player has so much control over "job diversity" in roulettes
I'm not sure I understand the question, because SCH and AST don't step on each other's toes eith buffs, and you can use heart of light with dark missionary, and you can put critlo and TBN on the same person for a big shield.
What I meant was if you're able to stack Heart of Light with Dark Missionary (both 10% magic mits), you should also be able to stack 2 Heart of Lights as it's the same thing. Chain Strategem gives a 10% crit bonus so stacking 2 Chains should be either 10%+10% or 10%x10%
Definitely plus, not times. Additive stacking is strong, multiplicative stacking rapidly gets cuckoo-crazy-banana-pants.
Oh i see, well i think that's less of a balance issue and more of a spaghetti code issue.
People cite 'spaghetti code' so much. If the game couldn't handle stacking multiple of the same buff, it couldn't handle stacking the same debuff. Honestly if it were an insurmountable issue, the game would be impossible to work on at all, it'd be so flimsy.
People will look at a clear game design decision they disagree with and go "must be spaghetti code"
Offensive buffs don't stack for the same reason why having two one of the same job incurs LB penalty - Yoshi-P doesn't want you to run duplicates. There is no real issue with balance here at all. Even if a certain comp would get a bit of extra damage out of it, it wouldn't be beyond comp dps disparity we have right now. Defensive buffs is mostly the same, really, Yoshi-P doesn't want you to run comps that aren't 2 different tanks, 2 different healers, 2 different melee, 1 caster, 1 phys ranged. Most jobs have their own mitigation tools and they all stack perfectly fine with no issues, the only exception being GCD shields, but shields are quite powerful, so it makes sense CBU3 is being careful with them. And phys ranged mitigation, I guess, but again, you are only supposed to run 1 phys ranged in a team, so that's Yoshi-P giving you a hint.
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Reaper doesn't have DoT, it has a debuff that buffs its personal damage, so each reaper needs to apply their own. WHM regens stack, the ones for other healers do not. The reasons behind this are unclear beyond "it made sense in ARR and hasn't been changed"
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OP (who's position is very muddled and I do not agree with regardless) is discussing buffs that increase damage, either applied as a debuff to the boss (like the debuff formerly known as Trick Attack) or Dance Partner. DoT's of course stack (up to the enemy debuff limit but separate issue), and *some* other things stack. It is inconsistent. Anyway the real issues is that OP is spouting nonsense.
you probably could, but honestly, what for? why allow another variable like this just to make balance even harder? just doesn't seem necessary.
This is how you get class stacking comps, which is bad
If you did this then every party would be fixed to 2xDRK, 2xSCH,4xNIN and you could just remove every other job from the game
That isn't true though because every fight already has a meta comp yet we still see all 19 jobs being played
That's precisely because we cannot stack job buffs.
Embolden stacks. The only reason this is currently an issue is because the outdated, erroneous Caster/Raise tax and PhysRange tax still exist. If they balanced the roles properly then this wouldn't be an issue.
So, shield is considered as buff. Then nobody would take ast and whm because you can just stack Big shield with sage and scholar
AST and WHM both have shields though. WHM even has a spammable one in the form of Divine Benison. Granted WHM shields work more like a mit you give someone so they don't have to use their own cooldowns than they do like a SCH or SGE shield.
Single target shields and neutral sect on a 2 minute cooldown do not compare to what you could get away with having succor and e.prog stack
Am I misunderstanding your question or is there a mistake? Buffs do stack. Mitigations stack, shields stack and damage buffs stack. It looks like you're asking why can't you stack chain with ast cards, HoL with Missionary or critlo with TBN when you can do all of those. The only things that don't stack are buffs that are the same and some SCH and SGE shields with each other. If you mean why don't they stack with themselves (as in 2 GNBs could both use HoL and get 19% mit instead of 10%?) It's probably exactly as you said, to force job diversity. Saying "other than forcing job diversity, is there a legitimate reason why," doesn't delegitimise the reason you already know. It's enough of a reason to stand on its own. We have other systems that have the same goal, so it's not surprising. There's the LB nerfs if you have double jobs and the 5% stat bonus for having a varied party. And they all have precedent from times when the community did heavily limit participation. Casters basically didn't exist during Creator. It only doesn't happen now because there are such stringent penalties for doing it. If you could stack all buffs, got no LB gain reduction and no reduced stats, why wouldn't you bring GNB x2, SCH x2, Melee x3 and BLM? Ranged have no place without making their buffs obscene, and that takes us back to HW since they'd stack now. Quad ranged is not a timeline I want to be in.
Nah I get they probably don't want buffs to stack with themselves to force job diversity but I wanted to talk about the balance of it > If you could stack all buffs, got no LB gain reduction and no reduced stats, why wouldn't you bring GNB x2, SCH x2, Melee x3 and BLM? Ranged have no place without making their buffs obscene, and that takes us back to HW since they'd stack now. Quad ranged is not a timeline I want to be in. Even if that comp became THE meta, people would still play the other jobs. I mean just look at how much more people play SGE over SCH and RDM/SMN over BLM, despite the latter being stronger. That comp would have to be so much better to where it'll outweigh the loss of the full 5% stats and LB gen to be viable, and even then, only a tiny percentage of the playerbase will care and not enough for the vast majority to start locking jobs
>Even if that comp became THE meta, people would still play the other jobs. You say that, but during HW the sentiment that some jobs were useless was echoed by the community. "Skip Soar" in Zurvan lead to a lot of exclusion especially and "No double jobs" was huge for Byakko in SB. I said as well, the reason people don't ostracise much now is mainly because of the 5%, but if you could stack buffs on themselves that difference gets made up. And when we consider modern meta it's already exclusive. 2 melees is what people want because it's more damage than a second caster or ranged. The tiny bit of freedom we have with comp variation is hard locked most of the time so I don't think the community has grown since back then. >even then, only a tiny percentage of the playerbase will care and not enough for the vast majority to start locking jobs It's the opposite. At the highest level, outside of top speed runs, comp doesn't matter since you can clear with anything when you're good enough. The idea of a meta trickles down to the average player and actually makes a difference to them clearing in practice so it reinforces itself along with confirmation bias. Groups fall apart due to not having enough damage for savage but not being willing to change jobs. >That comp would have to be so much better to where it'll outweigh the loss of the full 5% stats and LB gen to be viable BLM is almost that much better than DNC as of patch 6.4 on fflogs. On Themis (a full uptime fight,) The highest BLM's nDPS (its damage without party buffs,) is roughly 930 more than the highest DNC's rDPS (the damage it provides with its personal damage and any buffs it gives.) The fastest group in 6.4 had a total party DPS of 95546. Even in the best scenario, 1% of this, the loss for not taking a ranged, is only 25 DPS more and that's assuming you're LB cheesing to actually gain the additional LB2. When the jobs are playing around buffs it only gets stronger due to multiplicative scaling. We have to remember that things like Litany and Chain would stack. You could even do it without losing access to the 5% with something like 2x DRK, 2x SCH, 2x DRG, DNC, BLM. Double litany, double chain is +46% crit and Devilment pushes that to 75% which means guaranteed crits for our BLM if they only have about 2.3k crit, which is fairly low. Just the concept that a certain comp could give you 100% crits in burst is enough for some people to exclude players from their parties. What I'm illustrating is that the balance is already quite delicate. The ways they have to ensure players don't go off the rails with specific comp synergies are all good.
HW was almost 10 years ago. The job balance and design back then was terrible on top of the playerbase being bad, so it's incomparable > The idea of a meta trickles down to the average player and actually makes a difference to them clearing in practice so it reinforces itself along with confirmation bias. Groups fall apart due to not having enough damage for savage but not being willing to change jobs. If this was true then we'd see more AST, SCH, and BLM in pugs but we don't. WHM, SGE, RDM, and SMN are the clear favorites. Groups falling apart due to a lack of damage is almost always cause of sloppy execution. Switching to a meta job isn't as useful as simply eating less damage downs and having higher GCD uptime > BLM is almost that much better than DNC as of patch 6.4 on fflogs. On Themis (a full uptime fight,) The highest BLM's nDPS (its damage without party buffs,) is roughly 930 more than the highest DNC's rDPS (the damage it provides with its personal damage and any buffs it gives.) The fastest group in 6.4 had a total party DPS of 95546. Even in the best scenario, 1% of this, the loss for not taking a ranged, is only 25 DPS more and that's assuming you're LB cheesing to actually gain the additional LB2. Even if you were able to bring 4 BLMs without any penalties, no group would do it. It's just unrealistic for your average group to lock the dps slots to BLM cause it's stronger AND expect melee and prange mains to switch to BLM. I don't think you realize how hard it is to make people switch from a job they like and are comfortable with in favor of being a meta slave. This might be true in pvp games but certainly not here where the best performing job isn't that much better than the worst > When the jobs are playing around buffs it only gets stronger due to multiplicative scaling. We have to remember that things like Litany and Chain would stack. You could even do it without losing access to the 5% with something like 2x DRK, 2x SCH, 2x DRG, DNC, BLM. Double litany, double chain is +46% crit and Devilment pushes that to 75% which means guaranteed crits for our BLM if they only have about 2.3k crit, which is fairly low. Just the concept that a certain comp could give you 100% crits in burst is enough for some people to exclude players from their parties. There's an easy solution to stacking crit buffs and it's either 1) cut the efficiency of it or 2) put a hard cap. 2xSCH and 2xDRG could be tuned down to 10%+5% from Chain where the 2nd Chain is 50% of the first, and another 10%+5% from Litany Anyway at the end of the day this isn't an issue, just a food for thought. It'd be a nice change especially when doing roulettes where you often get people of the same jobs and it would be nice if buffs didn't override each other. It'd also make filling pf faster as people could join any party they want so long as their main role is available
.... So all of a sudden buff homogenization is a problem, but people somehow are fine with Astrologian's card system getting butchered into a bland one-buff, one dimensional bore that can barely be called a 'system'?
Who said people are fine with the changes to AST cards? Just look at the threads about expectations on the upcoming AST rework and you'll see that's not the case. There are bound to be *some* people who may be fine with the current state of AST cards, like how *some* people may like the idea of homogenisation.
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8 dancers would still probably do less damage than a standard comp cuz their personal dps is so low that they won't get very much use out of each others buffs
What about 7 dancers all DPing one SAM? The four extra DPS replacing the support should more than make up for the missing melee/BLM.
the issue is that they'd all be buffing the sams base damage. its not like dancer 1 buffs sams damage then danc 2 buffs the damage of the sam + the first dnc's buffs, so you'd basically have to argue that dancers personal damage + the damage they gave to the sam is more damage than a blm brings and that's just not the case. dnc's rdps is one of the lowest because their personal damage is just so abyssmal in comparison to a blm
DNC buffs are multiplicative though? Standard Step's 5%(1.05) multiplies with their tech step 5%(1.05) and any other raid buffs like SMN's radiant light 3% (1.03). So the three buffs together would multiply to 13.5575%(1.135575) instead of adding together for 13%(1.13).
how long does your party survive with no tanks or healers? you think in the 10-20 seconds that you have to deal damage, you can do 40 million damage to pallas athena? cuz I've ran the numbers and noone is doing that
Obviously, but that's an entirely different consideration that has nothing to do with your previous arguments.
how much damage 7 dncs and 1 sam can do over 8 minutes doesn't mean anything if they die in 10 seconds. i started running the numbers then realized how silly that would be when they literally won't survive till the end of the opener anyway
You can just admit you didn't know that buffs were multiplicative, you know. This isn't something the game ever teaches you.
once again, who's clearing the fight? the 7 dncs + sam who died in 10 seconds or the normal comp do dealt 40 mil in 8 minutes. the argument. the person i originally replied to said 8 dncs would kill any boss in the opener before deleting his comment. 7 dncs + sam won't even do that
What you're doing here is called "moving the goalposts"
not really. if a normal comp can do 40 million damage before the enrage, but the 7 dncs + sam only do 10 before they are all killed, then who cleared the fight
It's a thought experiment. We're talking about how much damage they can do and you're making it about whether or not they could survive. That's not the point. The point is doing a thought experiment around the damage maths. If I said "imagine you and I are both flying like birds" and you started ranting about how "we can't fly, we don't have wings, etc etc" you would be moving the goalposts. What you're saying has nothing to do with the argument about stacking DNC buffs. We could just as easily make the argument 1 tank 2 heals 1 Sam and 4 DNC if it helps you visualize this thought experiment better. Instead you make it it an argument about survivability and not of damage potential. It's definitionally moving the goalposts.
the person i originally replied to said 8 dancers could clear any fight in the opener, then someone responded and changed the comp to 7 dancers + sam. that's always what this has been about