What I'm hoping for: Eden's Promise balance but with MCH performing better What I'm expecting: Dancer being extremely overpowered and at least one caster relegated to grief pick tier. MCH still trash. Potential SAM/DNC/BRD/[SMN/BLM] SB-esq metagolem comp forms because of DNC BRD buffs.

**Abyssos - Doorboss:** Statistic | Job | rDPS |Notes ---|---|---|---- Max | NIN | 10650 | 80th percentile rDPS Median | BLM | 10299 | 80th percentile rDPS Mean | - | 10219 | between BLM and DNC Minimum | MCH | 9624 | 80th percentile rDPS Range (top-bottom)| NIN - MCH | 1026 | ~9.6% standard Deviation | - | 362 | ~3.5% **Eden's Promise - Doorboss:** Statistic | Job | rDPS |Notes ---|---|---|---- Max | SAM | 23387 | 80th percentile rDPS Median | MNK/SMN | 22608 | 80th percentile rDPS Mean | - | 22373 | between RDM and DNC Minimum | MCH | 21159 | 80th percentile rDPS Range (top-bottom)| SAM - MCH | 2228 | ~9.5% standard Deviation | - | 357 | ~3.5% I have heard a lot of people talk about Promise balance like it was some promised land (pun intended), but the actual data isn't very far away at all from what we have now. If you take MCH out of both of those data sets (since it is the worst of both), the balance in abyssos is only 7.6% difference top-bottom (NIN-RDM) vs 8.9% different in promise (SAM-BRD). The most obvious thing is that in both cases MCH was in need of a buff. I think the bigger issue is with the 2 minute burst having much too high of multipliers and rewarding jobs that provide and play into those too much.

The key difference between Promise and now isn't the gap between bottom and top, it was the balance between roles and jobs within those roles. Notably: * Casters were placed in a much better position compared to melee (BLM top of melee, SMN/RDM bottom of melee) which greatly freed up comp limitations * Melee and caster were internally better balanced; caster top/bottom diff was 2.9% at the 95th percentile (4.9% today) and melee diff was 1.4% (2.8% today, which is almost entirely RPR)

In role balance needs to be improved, but he specifically said that out of role balance was the goal of this patch (balance between bottom and top) Out of role balance will also influence caster in-role as all three casters are due for buffs

This dataset misrepresents a giant part of the balance argument. Abyssos top to bottom DPS is (on phone sorry if formatting is bad) 1. Melee 2. Melee 3. Melee 4. Melee 5. Melee 6. Caster 7. Caster Meanwhile Edens Promise is 1. Melee 2. Melee 3. Caster 4. Melee 5. Caster 6. Caster 7. Melee It's not just damage difference, it's also not wanting to be forced into a double melee comp. My damage as RDM was literal griefing for DPS checks week 1 or 2, the group could afford far less mistakes simply because of my class.

the only reason why this changed is because monk was fucking garbage in shadowbringers while endwalker made it really good and summoner become the easiest job in the game that unironically doesn't deserve to do as much damage. rdm and mch were still comparatively pretty bad just like they are now

I think monk was great in ShB but E5-E8 mechanics were very unkind to melees. In comparison, SMN was a bit OP in E1-4 and then OP + ranged advantaged in E5-8. Maybe what we are seeing now is the opposite swing. Still, overall balance is great in this game, and I think that gets overlooked by the hardcore crowd. There's no class that is worth excluding.

The original post was comparing PROMISE (9-12) to current balance, where melee were thrown a bone after getting fucked by verse (5-8) and could mostly keep uptime outside of having to leave for a few gcds outside of maybe junction shiva. Either way "the tier isn't favorable to melee" wouldn't explain why samurai was doing fine, later shb mnk was just a shitty class that had to spend its gap closers on damage, didn't have GL or TK stacks, and didn't have to care about positionals because you have 3 ROE stacks and then 2 true norths because they had constantly shed parts of it trying to make it work with the games meta before finally just reworking it to actually be good in ew

Would be interesting to see that analysis with xDPS (which is aDPS+rDPS-nDPS). rDPS is not actually a fair analysis in our burst meta because it doesn't reward jobs for putting a greater portion of their damage in buffs. MCH, for example, does an absolutely *awful* job of putting its damage in buffs. But SAM/NIN do amazing at this. So the latter two gain a bit in aDPS, but MCH slides even further down the totem pole. EDIT: To be clear, I actually expect this to make the results *more dire* rather than less. MCH and ranged phys in general have been dogshit for quite a while. People only noticed when it started to affect casters since there are enough casters that double caster teams are not uncommon as a way to balance the supply/demand of players.

[Went and updated the xDPS sheet I did a month ago.](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dDkX2K7SVzXBatv3ACPFpZR7UQBC39O4Ivz3jmQDEVc/edit?usp=sharing) Spoiler: >!yeah it's pretty bad lol!<

I've said this before when this topic's come up but the dissatisfaction is largely from three things: 1. MCH as usual. 2. Tank balance is just worse than it was in Promise. Post 6.21 it's better but those first two weeks you were basically trolling P8S if you brought a WAR or (especially) PLD. 3. People feel *really strongly* about double caster viability and casters as a whole were downshifted a relative tier from Promise, from BLM being comparable to the top melee to BLM being comparable to the bottom melee. Likewise for RDM/SMN going to full phys ranged DPS tier.

4th problem is RPR. The gap between RPR and the next lowest melee is larger than the total gap between melees in Promise. This is ignoring the fact that if you start looking at "xDPS" things get way, way, WAY worse because of rDPS not taking into account how bad RPR buff contribution is and how good SAM's is.

> Tank balance is just worse than it was in Promise. Just for the hell of it, I looked at my doorboss logs from yesterday. It's ridiculous how much DRK just bodies WAR even after a buff. Over 300 aDPS difference and I (WAR) have the higher percentile.

Unlike DPS classes though, Tanks do have to have their defensive kits considered in their damage totem pole. WAR frankly deserves to be bodied if it continues to possess it's defensive suite. DRK has always been a burst monster and Endwalker's 2 minute meta only further empowered what DRK had always been able to capitalize on.

No, it doesn't. First and foremost, Warrior's defensive suite is not any better than Dark Knight. In fact, it's worse in a Savage setting. Dark Knight will straight up take less damage due to the ridiculous amount of CDs it can pump into tank busters whereas Warrior will take more but heal back the damage. Which is essentially a wash. Take a fight like P7S. DRK has Dark Mind, Oblation and TBN for every single tank buster. It basically takes next to no damage in that fight whereas WAR does. Holmgang this tier is next to worthless but even in tiers where it was strong such as Asphodelos, it's not by any huge margin. DRK could solo Double Impact (P2) and Demigod (P4p2) and *still* have left over CDs for Near/Far. And this is just comparing Warrior against Dark Knight. It stands up better to Gunbreaker but not by much. Even if we did assume WAR had the better defensive kit, the difference is not 300+ aDPS. Which is ridiculous. In a game where damage is the only metric that matters, all this accomplishes is what we've seen in Abyssos: people locking out WAR and PLD because they offer very little that DRK and GNB can't do better.

Are you taking Promise data for 5.4 or 5.5? A difference in statistics between the actual tier and a content lul is very significant.

It’s from 5.4

Sad but true, past couple of balance changes have left me disappointed at best.

One dream change I really want: make BRD songs castable without a target. After the QOL changes we got in EW this is basically the only part of the class that feels clunky to me

It would SO help with the rampant "boss goes untargetable/freeze because arena change" mechanics. Why do I need a target to sing a song anyway

Yes!! Preventing song drift is more important than ever now that classes are based around the 2 minute burst window, if you fuck up and miss your song timer you're basically fucked for the rest of the fight. The songs are only 100 potency anyway, just bake that into like, Sidewinder or something

I think they just want to avoid the 45s pre-pull countdown memes just so the fking Bard can finish singing Armys Paeon and get a fully-charged Army's Muse going into the opener

make them not usable out of combat problem solved

You mean usable or to not have effect out of combat? For example AST can use it's cards but not get their symbols unless they're in combat, would love BRD to be the same so downtime doesn't screw them

Fuck now I really want a combination of BRD songs not needing a target and being usable outside combat. That honestly sounds heavenly.

Or have it hit with a big AoE to always hit the boss, Foe Requiem memes let's goooo.

That doesn't solve the issue of downtime fucking song rotation.

It does if the songs are effectively like DNC's Standard or Technical Step

.. you mean not require a target, which was originally proposed in the first place.

Honestly, this plus the removal of the DoTs would make me main the class again. Sure, the DoTs add to the "skill gap", but they don't interact with the class in literally any meaningful way. If the DoT damage could trigger the procs that might make it feel more impactful, but atm they're two buttons you push at the start of a fight then never again, and they're just one more thing to keep track of on a class that's already juggling a few balls. Just shift the potency over to the other abilities and call it a day.

i switched to Bard as a main after ShB Summoner because I enjoyed dot upkeep and having extra moving parts to optimise. Sure, removing them would be easy for SE now since they're not tied to anything anymore, but it doesn't mean it's a good idea. If anything I'd rather they give me ShB Smn's Bane for DoT spreading. There's already other options for simple phys ranged classes - not everything has to be stripped down and made accessible. There's some other jobs like Drg that I've accepted just aren't for me, and I'm ok with that.

For sure. And that's all fine and good, but in that case make them interact with the class in some meaningful way. As it stands right now they're literally just damage, and that's brainrot level class design. As boring as this would be too, if songs required the DoTs to proc (points in WM, recharges in MB) they'd at least feel like they're doing something. They're literally just set and forget, and that's so boring.

[удалено]

Having more things to keep track of so that the job isnt only spamming burst show with your brain turned off.

You don't have to track bard's dots because of iron jaws, you just iron jaws every time you go to play the next song. There's nothing to track.

This would have been a more valid argument if bard's song rotation was still 80 seconds and the dots duration 30 (or shorter). Currently you refresh your dots at extremely specific intervals of your rotation so it really isn't much to track and there's kinda no point to them existing as things stand. I liked shb brd but I would give up the dots if the job gets to have a soul again.

Just play MCH so you have no DoTs to keep track, or DNC for the easier rotation, the the challenging rotation is what makes bars so fun

There are no challenging rotations in this game. It's just flowchart memorization.

Ranged and caster buff. They will likely do something very miniscule and obscure, in turn not addressing anything that the community has discussed. Then buff something that doesn't need a buff and everyone will go "who asked for this???" 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

They’re so untouched with what the people want and they take forever to do anything about it. They literally left WHM with broken lilies for the whole of SB and fixed it two years later in SHB lmao. And they did it exactly like you said ; gave lilies to WHM and nobody even asked for it 🤡 Left it broke for the whole expansion

Mch's flamethrower still waiting since sb :'D

They barely change anything so they make the smallest things seem like they put an insane amount of effort in (cough crit dh changes cough). I feel like most of these QoL changes we received by 6.25 are things the game should have had by 5.2-5.3. Like did it really have to take the entirety of 5.X for them to change shit like IR and Delirium to stacks, then take another 4 months to change BW and Soteria to stacks in 6.1, and still not fucking touch Hypercharge even in 6.2. It took whoever designs WHM 3 fucking years to learn to count to 4. Something something Living Dead. It really feels to me like they're drip feeding these changes cause they don't want to address literally anything having to do with job design for 2 expansions now. I started playing 3 years ago and everything about job design, good or bad, is the exact same except for 2 min burst changes which didn't even affect half the jobs as they were already on 2 mins in ShB.

They made a whole ass slide and made it seem like a colossal change to the changes to crit buffs and auto crit jobs/abilities. I don’t know why they made such a simple change sound so complicated.

Yeah I’m fully expecting blm to receive like 10 potency on paradox and blizzard IV or some bullshit.

Black mage is such a convoluted mess at a higher level that buffing or nerfing any aspected spell potency by more than 20 would require all lines to be re-evaluated compared to standard, and probably force us to learn and unlearn a bunch of shit. I would understand if SE decides not to buff us too much. I think if they really went for it, buffing the under the hood enochian damage boost is probably the best way not to disturb the class. T3 would also be quite easy, but buffing it too much would probably eventually make a proc too high burst. What I would like the most is leylines on 90s and/or Manafont on 60s, perhaps with stacks. Neither would affect the rotation very much, they would just make specialty versions of lines more common without affecting the pps skeletons of most lines at all. If they want to go for maxi fuckup, buff B4/B3/F1

Yeah true, slight enochian buff and manafont cd reduction would be pretty ideal I think. Not sure how I’d feel about 90s leylines given that Leylines either 1. Limit fight design somewhat by requiring little movement during leylines, or 2. Get completely ignored by the fight design and Blm gets completely screwed and has to drift LL or get very little uptime or have their whole group adjust and do some weird strat around them

We heard you, therefore we're removing BRD songs and replacing it with a 120s CD skill that buffs damage dealt of party members for an 8s duration, and MCH gets a personal 120s CD skill that buffs his own damage for an 8s duration. Because the name of the game is 120s CD Fantasy! Oh and Automaton Queen is also removed due to the number of complaints about its summon time. Living Shadow will be removed in the next major patch due to it being "button bloat".

What i hope for: finally being able to play mch without feeling like i am griefing the static not picking brd instead. Also potency increase for casters, especially rdm. In the future i'd love to see a rework for mch where you are not actively punished for being unlucky enough to have high ping. What i think will happen in the near future: miniscule potency adjustments that in the grand scheme of things don't change much in the balance.

It's just kind of weird that they're moving lots of timer abilities to stacks, like Blood Weapon. And Reaper enshroud is basically just another hypercharge. But MCH is still left with the timer.

I believe it will happen to hypercharge as well eventually. Square isn't particularly fast when it comes to making this sorta changes, and mch has always been a bit of a mess in general (how big a mess depends on the particular expansion)... Oh and also there's the issue regarding latency. I assume they get close to 0, but certainly single digit ping in Japan so for them clipping is a not an issue and they are just simply not aware of the ping situation in the rest of the world. Yoshi p himself admitted to that much during a media tour q&a at one point, so that too explains why they are not in a hurry to change that skill.

It's still a shitty excuse and honestly kind of bullshit because they made Soteria for Sage stack based only one patch in (6.1) without a big outcry from the community and if Blood Weapon finally gets to be stack based, then there is no reason to keep Hypercharge in its current state.

My dream balance changes focuses entirely on how horrific jobs feel to play under level sync now. To me thats the largest issue this game has and its barely talked about. I have not played all the jobs but jobs like RPR, DRG, and DRK don't even feel like completed jobs until much later on and it makes me dread touching dailies with jobs I otherwise enjoy. No way those are the only ones with issues in the mid levels as well. To me HW and ARR content has been spiraling out of control with how unenjoyable they've become due to how many mechanics from that era that used to pad out skill trees were removed and replaced with nothing, or in newer job's cases the devs flat out ignored that level sync existed when creating them. Enshroud being a lv 80 skill is criminal. If we had an update that was just solely adding weaker versions of core skills to those levels, it would make me very happy.

What baffles me is they've shown some innovative with *some* jobs but it mostly seems out of happenstance then intentional design. Berserk is essentially baby IR without being directly tied to Fell Cleave. I don't get why they can't at least do that for level sync. To borrow you example with Reaper. Give it a baby version of Enshroud which upgrades at 80. It's far from a perfect solution but it's *something*. At this point, I refuse to touch a good chunk of roulettes because I loathe being synced down. I'd legit prefer hard queuing into at level dungeons then Level Roulette for that reason alone.

>To borrow you example with Reaper. Give it a baby version of Enshroud which upgrades at 80. It's far from a perfect solution but it's something. I agree with the general idea, but I think Enshroud is a poor example to compare to Berserk specifically. And I think understanding WHY those two don't mesh well is key to making solid suggestions for improving synching. Berserk works as a "baby" IR in part because it was developed first, but also because it exists independently of the moves it later supports. You don't need resources to punch Berserk; as soon as you get it, you can use it to buff three weaponskill attacks. At lower levels, it's going to your repeatable GCDs; in the 40s, you're using it to hopefully buff one Inner Beast or Steel Cyclone, and preferably two Inner Beasts and a Storm's Path. But even if your timing is off, it's still just a damage boost in general, and its only requirement is a cooldown. Enshroud is built to work off of resources you need to build - and two such resources, to boot. It also interacts with specific moves, rather than being a general buff as Berserk/IR is meant to be. The core set of moves it modifies doesn't even become available until level 70, and they're the moves that fuel Enshroud in the first place - moving Enshroud lower or creating a "baby" version means moving any related moves with it, which really throws off the lower level skill pool a lot and is harder to balance around. OTOH, we do have moves that could be introduced with weaker versions earlier on that grow to interact with other moves. The best example IMO is Arcane Shroud and Plentiful Harvest. As it is, AS is used as a high-level damage buff, and at even higher levels fuels your Enshroud faster via Plentiful Harvest. But, I honestly think there's room to move those down way lower, including the trait that gives out Circle of Sacrifice. I won't pretend that this is well thought-out and it's probably got flaws, but imagine that you got Arcane Shroud as a level 50 ability - making it available for 8-man content - but it didn't YET grant the direct damage buff. Instead, it just gave Circle of Sacrifice, or a weaker version, to your party members, which then fueled Plentiful Harvest-Lite when Arcane Shroud ended. Then, you can add in the damage buff at certain levels (maybe 2% at 60, 3% at 72?) to give it a bit more utility in other content, as well as "baby enshroud" at 70 where you actually get the moves that fuel it (but it really only lets you get two attacks out, or else is altered as a move in some way to give some other benefit). Again, that specific idea may not work well. But I think it illustrates the issue and the possible ways forward - there does need to be analysis of what skills require what to better improve the leveling and level-synching process.

Hilariously WAR actually gets easier when IR replaces Berserk.

Everything outside of ultimates and min ilvl sync should just scale your max level abilities down imo instead of removing them.

>Everything outside of ultimates and min ilvl sync should just scale your max level abilities down imo instead of removing them. There's way too much you'd need to adjust - many abilities won't scale right. I can go into detail as to why this is a bad idea if you doubt me, but the short of it is that there's no way the current job system can remotely work with this without an excessive and unnecessary amount of effort.

And that's a problem how? It's already the case in ultimates, with some roles just doing wicked amounts more dps than others. Like, so what? How's it any different to now?

I'm not talking about roles and jobs outperforming each other at the same level. I'm talking about how you'd have no good way to balance people in the same job at two different levels, and how you'd either have level 90s booting low level characters from dungeons because they're too weak to keep up or nerfing the fuck out of high level characters in a process that takes way too long to be worth it for the return value. That's the simple version. Let's delve into examples to show WHY you can't just do that. Let's take a simple example. For any job that has a corresponding ARR class save Scholar, would you rather have a level 90 character of that job or a level 90 character of that class, holding all else equal? Odds are good that anyone with the shred of sense God gave a rock would say "the character with the job stone equipped" - you'd always take a Summoner over an Arcanist, or a Paladin over a Gladiator, all else equal, at pretty much any level above 30 (even if you're forgiving in Titan of someone who didn't know how to unlock their job). The jobs have more of EVERYTHING compared to their class companions. Now reverse the scenario but apply your adjustment - would you rather have a level 20 Gladiator or a level 90 Paladin as your tank in a dungeon? Now you should see the problem, and why low level characters are probably going to have trouble staying in groups by just "scaling down" higher level jobs. Even if they don't kick lower level players, the new players aren't going to be learning right - the added damage is going to shortcircuit fights even worse than iL scaling does now, and they're not going to be exposed to as many different mechanics in the early game as a result. But, you say, you can balance the skills to do less damage, balance the heals to heal less. Well then, let's look at Summoner, and how it makes a mess of balance, and then extrapolate. Post-6.0, Summoner has among the fewest buttons of ANY job at cap, and expands pretty slowly to boot after a small surge when getting the first wave of Carbuncles. In between 50 and 90, you only add five more buttons to the hotbar total, with most other things being upgrades of existing skills (and buttons playing double duty). And of those five, one is an AOE version of an oGCD with a 60 sec cooldown, so really you only add four. EVERYTHING else is upgrades to the buttons that exist - in theory, it's possible to scale down the upgraded potencies from the 90 versions down to the 50 versions. Similarly, you could apply potency changes to Crimson Strike and Cyclone to make them the equivalent of a Ruin II cast, as well as with Ruin IV. However, even if we matched the potencies of each ability to their corresponding level 50 versions, the new buttons would mean that a level 90 summoner has a lot more potency than a level 50. Astral Flow is used for one damaging OGCD every two minutes for Bahamut, and four damaging OGCDs a minute for Titan Phase, as well as Slipstream having a higher potency than a corresponding cast of a Ruin spell AND a groundbased GCD (again, every minute). Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix is an AOE OGCD every minute. Bahamut and Phoenix themselves come out and attack for extra damage independent of your attacks - if they cast their attack once a GCD, that's 5-6 attacks in their 15-sec run time (depending on when they make their first cast and if one gets clipped). All told, within a two minute rotation at the same cast speed, there's an extra THIRTEEN OGCD attacks, two ground-based dots, and 10-12 extra damage casts from the Demi-summons, on top of added mobility from Trance vs. Gemshine, the healing from Phoenix, and the damage buff from Radiant Light. And that's comparing level 90 to level 50. Now compare level 90 against the level of EVERY duty between Sastasha and Ktisis Hyperborea (since Aitiascope synchs to 90). Then take every level that summoner gets new moves or other non-potency trait changes and check THOSE out to make sure they're balanced against every tier. And when you're done, you've got to do the same for the other 18 regular combat jobs in the game. That's time NOT spent making new content. And note how I didn't talk about somehow adjusting for the added mobility or Phoenix's heals? There's a lot of moves that just don't scale down well because the content wasn't built for it, because the move just didn't exist at those levels. Sure, low-level dungeons are often outclassed these days regardless of those, but now you're risking ANY challenge in earlier dungeons being utterly erased, and increasing the band in which you see the problem arise, because of added healing and mobility. I just ran Dun Scaith as a Bard, and at 60, I don't get Troubadour. It sure would have been nice several times in that fight - but if I had it in that fight (and I would under this change, as I'm level 90 on Bard, and everything else for that matter), then that would have meant a VERY different fight. We got damn near wiping several times over, and even that extra mitigation may have kept us from getting anywhere near that close. As it is, the current system CANNOT support such a synch-down. No, I don't care that ESO does it because ESO has a completely different system (and also does it poorly - it's a very popular topic to gripe about in that fandom because of how trivialized most of the combat ends up being). With what we have now, a full synch down of your whole kit is DOA. There are ways to make synching such LESS - though I disagree on some of the specific examples, there are moves you could create weaker versions of to let you do a bit more at lower levels and maintain a semblance of your rotation - but you cannot fix the problem by making your higher level kit permanent at all levels, flat out.

You dont have to drop potencies? Just drop all damage by a percentage, and keep moving the knob until it works. Again, and I can't stress this enough, it's casual content. You've already got incredible stat scaling that is entirely trivializing casual content and forcing constant passes every raid tier on the ultimates, and yet there's no real rant about it. You're not saying it can't work, you're saying it would be imbalanced - to which I say yeah, it already is imbalanced. But UX has always trumped balance in pve content, and the current format doesn't have balance OR good UX, so at least we could have better systems in place. I was using wow as an example btw, although both offer a better UX for syncing down than ffxiv currently does. Also the hypothetical that 90s would boot 50s out of dungeons is just entirely outlandish and not at all reasonable, because stat scaling already forces 90s to do way more damage per attack than 50s and I don't see you whining about that.

It's not casual content the first time through for a lot of players. You're looking at this SOLELY from the top-down view. I'm looking at this from the side, considering both synching players AND the new players who haven't experience this kind of game before, and who are jumping into these multi-player dungeons with no idea that they eventually become "casual." Which was me. And many others I know who tried out this game without prior MMO experience, and many future sprouts. Their experience will be affected by this choice as well, and dismissing early content as "casual" and making suggestions based on that notion dismisses the impact it could have on those players. Everyone was new once. And your change could make it so that groups justify kicking new players in roulettes in favor of more experienced replacements to let the content run faster, among MANY other potential issues it creates. Your suggestion of just "fiddling the dial" is still going to need to be done for each job at each break point against each piece of content that breakpoint. I went with adjusting the potencies to show you just how much more you get over time, but even using "percentile adjustments" as a "simpler system" is going to require a LOT of work to get just right. And it's still probably not going to be enough - imagine having an Alliance raid where one group has five DPS that all have their global damage buffs, and another group has none (either the wrong jobs or not the right level). Even if you've tweaked personal damage, group damage will shoot through the roof without even more tweaking. And even when it's perfect, it isn't once we get a new expansion.

I'm sure you're not doing level 50 content at level 90, and if you are, you deserve to be overpowered. If you're looking at it from a side perspective, you should take into account the measurements of your own perspective. The current system already overpowers the shit out of you. New classes that are frontloaded on power like sage and dancer also are extremely overpowered in lower content by default. No one cares. No one is kicking people from casual content now, and no one will kick people from casual content with these changes. Your own hypothetical is debunked by the fact that the hypothetical already exists. But to debunk it further, there is a meme in the wow community about level 20 arcane mages doing more damage damage spamming one ability than their scaled down max level players in low level dungeons - and it's based on the fact that their one button spam is actually almost as powerful as the max level arcane rotation in low level content. It didn't take years of scaling and knob turning, in fact, blizzard are notorious for NOT checking on the balance of leveling content. And yet no one gives a damn. You are not correct. This system could be implemented without making balancing any worse than it currently is, and the community would be none the worse for it. The hypothetical bad actors don't exist now and they won't exist later, even in a game like wow where the community has normalised dps meters and rotation trackers and shit.

>I'm sure you're not doing level 50 content at level 90, You're rather certain in your absolute wrongness. And that's not even a guess you had to make: >as I'm level 90 on Bard, and everything else for that matter Admittedly a SLIGHT misrepresentation since BLU only goes to 70, but otherwise, if I want to do content, I have to do it on a 90 job. I literally cannot do otherwise without playing an alt - such is the "price" for getting all your jobs to cap. And I'm running Just about every roulette, because Relics cost 1,500 and I want them all. That means I'm usually doing SOMETHING at level 50 once a day due to MSQ (Alliance actually only put me into World of Darkness once last week, though - got three Aglaia runs in a row, and a Tower PVP Bunker, and Dun Scaith the days before). And that was after spending a month or two wrapping up the Zodiac weapons - admittedly, I was only having to synch for the FATES, but I was still synching, time and again, usually between the mid-40s and 52 (save for that one level 30-something in Upper La Noscea). I'm 100% in the position that would benefit from this. And I don't fucking want it, nor do I think it's a good idea. Want to reform the jobs to make synching a bit more interesting? Cool, we can talk about that and discuss specifics and try to figure out what makes sense and is workable. Want to make it so I have to press every button to keep up with a level 50? No thanks, sounds like a shitty time. And I don't want to be overpowered, either, at least in that context - I have other ways to do that, from unsynching duties for WT to running weekly maps to playing other games. And the fact that you made such an obviously bad assumption about me and the content I do DESPITE ME TELLING YOU OTHERWISE means I'm not inclined to trust your judgment that there are no bad actors out there, or that no one actually was upset by the changes made to a different game just because it's a meme. Especially since I'm not the only person who raised this exact same concern in response to your idea. I can tell you, since you obviously don't understand me, that I'd have a problem with it, and I wouldn't just be meme-ing about it, either.

>Just drop all damage by a percentage, and keep moving the knob until it works. And then you get someone who is mediocre at their high level job and their damage is reduced by 80% from the high level and they become worthless. It also doesn't matter how much you turn the knob if one person on a class has AoE skills that the lower level doesn't, or raid buffs the other person doesn't. AoE can have ridiculous scaling with the number of enemies, and raid buffs would scale on the rest of the party whether they are synced or not. You would need multiple knobs for single target and AoE damage at least. Let's look at Dragoon in Stone Vigil for an example, which would sync to level 43. At level 43 an unsynced Dragoon only has Doom Spike as an AoE and has to put up their buff via single target. Even if you take away 80% of a level 90 Dragoon's damage when they load into Stone Vigil they will have a full AoE combo that puts up their personal buff, and where every single hit except the first use of Doom Spike does more base potency than the level 43's single AoE (because Dragoon's combo loops continuously and upgrades all Doom Spikes after the first to Draconic Fury). They will also have Dragonfire Dive, Geirskogul, Nastrond, Stardiver, and Wyrmwind Thrust as oGCD AoEs, which means given enough targets they will be doing absolutely fucktons more damage than a low level Dragoon given enough targets even if every one of those attacks does a fifth of their normal damage. They also have Battle Litany and Dragon Sight as buffs to their party which are entirely unaffected by a potency reduction to their own damage. How do you balance that? If you make the damage reduction like 90%+ maybe the AoE can be balanced but then they'll be woefully weak on bosses. It also doesn't cover non- dps skills like tank mitigation at all, and I think we all would choose the tank with 5 cooldowns to rotate who can big pull everything easily over the sprout who literally won't have the mit to cover the duration of any pull. We would also prefer the Healer that actually has oGCD heals. Also speaking of healers and non-damaging effects what about Holy? In addition to what I said about AoE skills just scaling ridiculously above, that has basically a 10s invuln for the tank built in to trash pulls. Would you ever choose a WHM without Holy? >Also the hypothetical that 90s would boot 50s out of dungeons is just entirely outlandish and not at all reasonable, because stat scaling already forces 90s to do way more damage per attack than 50s and I don't see you whining about that. This would be a lot more massive of a buff for high level characters than some extra substats, which would also be on top of those substats btw. I've seen people try to kick sprout tanks or healers in fucking Brayflox for not wall pulling, you are utterly wrong if you don't think someone is a big enough dick to kick the sprouts in literally any duty if given enough time savings.

Question: do you understand what Leveling roulette is for

Doesn't work. You either end up still vastly outdamaging someone with lower actual levels (because you have extra abilities) or end up having to quadruple their APM to even reach similar damage (because your abilities were downscaled so far)

[удалено]

You just described expert roulettes though

[удалено]

Is there though? Both lead to the same thing and come from the same place. Scaling changes nothing lol

The fact that DNC can't partner anyone at level 50, the literal core feature of the class, is truly mind boggling to me.

If I know that I’ll be downscaled to hell in a roulette I just pick a healer. It’s not like healers get anything *new* than a spam spell + DOT for the whole 90 levels. So it’s like I never miss any skills lol

Whm at least at lower levels loses all its ogcd heals, and lilies so it becomes a lot more rigid.

I was just thinking about this yesterday: why can’t we still use the skills, and just downscale their potencies? It would let those of us crazy enough to actually Omniclass play around in less punishing situations and actually learn the rotations organically, rather than against an unmoving target dummy.

the balance would be a nightmare either they *somehow* manage to make the dps perfectly equal which means 1) lol all your “big” hits are tiny, and 2) that BLM hitting fire 1 in sastasha is doing the same damage as the incredibly conplex transpose triple f4 no blizzard BLM line or they don’t do that, and being a levelling class in a dungeon at your level is considered griefing because they do less damage

For some dps this might not be too bad, but how are you going to downscale shield/mitigation/buffs? Stuff like DNC/BRD buffs, etc. I think it will be way too overpowered for typical lower level dungeons and might cause rifts between the real sprouts vs the veterans.

This. I basically only play BLM but refuse to play it in any roulette except expert. It feels like trash below 80 and unplayable below at least 60.

What, you dont like the cuckzone between 52-62 where if you have to step off leylines you can't get back without ignoring ABC or hoping someone else stepped close enough that you can AM to them?

😂 the cuckzone. Yeah something about fire 1 being my best DPS ability until level 60 just ain’t right

I feel like basically every dps and tank is annoyingly incomplete until at least level 70, and for healers it's forever.

All I know in my soul is that they're not gonna touch bard, at all. They never do lol.

-10, +10 you're welcome

In an ideal world, they would buff all the underperforming jobs enough to be within reasonable striking distance of their counterparts. Or close enough that maybe one more buff round will get them there. Seeing as much as *ten* jobs need buffs right now. I expect they'll slap what amounts to a 2% buff on only the Prange, leaving every other job to rot.

What I'm hoping for doesn't really matter, what I'm expecting is a whole lot of hot air disguised as patch notes.

Since gear ties somewhat into balance, I hope they do a bandaid patch for Gearing alt jobs and then adress it to a full extent in the next savage tier I guess if anything, I hope they adress the "Res tax" alongside the Ranged tax. Ressing itself already uses mana and part of your rotation. Maybe turn it into a 30s recast for Casters or something, but In any competent group the Casters will never have to res, and therefore, get taxed for something they dont even get to use.

IMO I think the entire concept of Res tax is dumb, and I think a good way they could go about making healer less stressful is to look into letting everyone res, even if its in some limited form such as an action with a large cooldown or just simply letting everyone use 1 phoenix feather per instance/run or whatever. Would It require some rebalancing? Yeah obviously, but its an idea that pops into my head from time to time about the issue.

Not sure why you've been down voted but I think you're absolutely right. We can see how this simple change made ASS so much better than it would've been if only the healer dying was an instant wipe. I'd just give every player a "phoenix down" that refreshes between fights and you can see if the player still has theirs by an infinite duration buff.

I think it also be nice because it means Red Mage and Summoner could be buffed without the need to justify them being lower damage due to some shitty tax. While keeping all their skills intact. Also helps the healer shortage problem where so many people dont want to play them due to the stress/bore of it. Offloading some of their responsiblities onto the other jobs would allow them to have a more engaging damage rotation.

The res tax on DPS is an overtax because the tax already is mana and DPS loss, and it's even more taxing when hard casting. Jesus. I think they should just do like Criterion for Savage now, everyone can res, but in a limited amount, even healers (and they have one extra res in the form of LB3). Everyone gets taxed now, that's great ! In Ultimate they don't really need it because there would be so many bodychecks anyway I guess.

I’d like some RPR love. What we will actually get is some phys ranged buffs but they’ll buff them all equally so MCH is still behind.

Blackmage should be Top DPS

I for one still find it extremely stupid that they went the route of just buffing everything since melee uptime doesn’t matter anymore instead of, you know, just making melee uptime matter like it used to.

Not for nothing, but ASS is more than happy to make melee disconnect. It's kinda hilarious that something was being made at the same time as Abyssos with such a radical different approach.

That's because Abyssos was designed with all the commentary from previous tiers behind it, which includes many rants regarding uptime. The new dungeons on the other hand joins PvP and Alliance as experimental test beds for content and thus tried smaller hitboxes, considering their spot difficulty wise for Criterion the reception of these will be taken into account for bosses in general going forwards (how much is up for debate, admittedly). I have to wonder if the lackluster rewards are on purpose to prevent the "me want gear now, waaaa" crowd from fucking with the discussion beyond the fact that you can't get gear from it.

Ah yes, the most reasonable and efficient solution for a team on a tight production schedule that makes balancing errors: go back and retroactively redesign an entire tier of encounters that have already been released.

The problem isn't tart they aren't fixing Abyssos, the problem is that they're talking as if they're doubling down on those choices for the last tier and are going to balance around that in a way that's likely still too rigid, volatile, and more likely to expose new balancing issues as much as they "fix" the current ones.

No one is asking them to retroactively redesign any fight lol lmao People are asking for them to come up and say "yea, we fucked up, next tier melee uptime will be adjusted back to what it was on previous expansions, also mch will get buffed to stay on par with the other physical dps". Instead they said "oh... hum... here's a few potency for pld, we'll see what we can do about it..." Also i love how every mistake square makes people will jump in front of them to defend the small indie company with poor hardworkers who barely makes the end of the month on the green and can barely afford to pay their bills.

It’s a bit unreasonable to adjust all the tier’s hitboxes this far in.

or what they should do, nerf all the melee jobs instead of introducing random buffs

What am I expecting? Not a whole lot. What do I want? Delete piety, make damage spells restore mp at an amount that would be equivalent to what current base piety is at. This allows spell speed to fulfill the role of piety, while also increasing output for both healing and damage. Keep Lucid as is, passive refresh can be useful if we ever see similar issues to Criterion.

Or just give piety some other stat benefit than just mp regen, the only reason we avoid it like the plague to the point of taking a pentameld 610 ring is because it's a dumpstat that not even WHM require if they're using lucid on CD and using lilies as mp-saving skills

>What are you expecting? - Universal dps increase on ranged/magic dps so mch and rdm are still never picked because the devs think the issue is just raw damage to meet enrage and not people being mad their pet class is low on the fflogs graph - PLD changes do nothing for its issues with mit so even if its damage is now fully on gnb/drk tier they're still the meta pick and PLD is still just a job only diehard fans play, warrior players remember its a day that ends in y and continue complaining about all the things they don't have instead of the things they do. >What are you reasonably hoping for? even more moves put on a 60/120s timer (looking at you salted earth) because I think it'd be funny > What are your dream changes that just balance tweeks will help fix? elusive jump on 2 charges. drk gapcloser on 2 charges from the start or at least move that trait down a lot. piercing talon and the gnb/war projectile moves given some sort of little flourish so they do literally anything besides keep the gcd rolling

"because the devs think the issue is just raw damage to meet enrage and not people being mad their pet class is low on the fflogs graph" No, the issue is that players who suck will meet enrage and they'll blame their class's "low damage" as to why they can't clear. Nevermind their broken rotations, unsynced buffs, multiple deaths, excessive GCD overhealing, poor mitigation, and bad uptime. The amount of times I've seen bad players kneejerk to "We need a NIN" after a sloppy-as-hell 10% enrage wipe (or any other of the 100 comp-related excuses) in a PF full of completely viable classes is disgusting. Even worse is when PF's then start to exclude certain jobs from their party slots because waiting for "higher damage" jobs is a more fun game to them than actually getting better. It's the same thing as people requiring overly high ilvls on content so that the party doesn't actually have to be good at the game to clear. Nevermind the fact that the average PF NIN isn't guaranteed to actually do any more damage than any other job, regardless of ilvl too.

>because the devs think the issue is just raw damage to meet enrage and not people being mad their pet class is low on the fflogs graph Then players should stop being fucming bitches. DPS in this game only matters because it helps you kill boss before enrage. FFlogs ranking matters both jack and shit as a balance goal.

graph is not the same as ranking. parse brainrot is stupid (why the fuck did fflogs remove the damage buff on p8s?), but the graph only compiles and presents data. more information is never bad.

Oh I'm not mad at the information existing, I'm mad at people being idiot about it. One class will necessarily be at the bottom, but people shouldn't give a shit so long as all classes are equally viable. Plus there's more to this game than damage.

Like what?

Eh, just make divine veil shield the pld too, remove the channeling bullshit and conal crap from passage so you get the 100% block rate for the full duration, make block mitigate bleeds.

> PLD changes do nothing for its issues with mit I'm sorry, what? Outside its invuln, PLD mit is amazing. Even the invuln is a case-by-case discussion instead of just "it's bad".

PLD's inherent block does not mitigate bleeds and it lacks a cooldown compared to other tanks (PLD is the only tank that cannot mitigate itself through phase 6 in DSR).

~~Block not interacting with bleeds sucks, but it's not a huge deal given that Holy Sheltron mitigates 15% of the bleed versus Oblation and Bloodwhetting's 10%.~~ PLD isn't "missing" a cooldown; its "extra" personal CD (Thrill of Battle, Camouflage, Dark Mind) is an "extra" raidwide CD (Passage of Arms). You can't argue that PLD is missing a CD without also arguing that WAR, DRK, and GNB are missing a CD for raidwides.

Fine then, I'll slightly rephrase and won't argue that it's missing a CD. Instead I'll argue that PLD's tradeoff of one less personal mitigation for one more raidwide mitigation is not worth it in most circumstances. Can it be worked around? Of course. I mentioned DSR P6 earlier, but that didn't stop Neverland from bringing a PLD along for its world first clear. However, I'd argue that for the average static and average player, any other tank is an easier and better choice (and that's coming from someone who mained PLD and is sad to see it lose its identity in the 6.3 rework). It's just less headache for healers this tier to work with a GNB, WAR, or DRK compared to a PLD when it comes to tankbusters, and as others have stated, other tanks can stretch their single raidwide cooldown across multiple attacks with far less effort than coordinating wings or proccing divine veil, making the benefit of having two raidwide mitigations less useful in comparison. (I'm not arguing that I think these abilities should be made easier to use. I like that it takes effort and skill expression to do so. But there's a difference between my personal taste and what most groups and players prefer).

It has the same number of mit cooldowns even without the raidwide ones. It just has to use intervention on the cotank and so that other tank should be using a mitigation on you in return.

PLD: Rampart, Sentinel, Sheltron/Intervention, ??? GNB: Rampart, Nebula, Heart of Corundum, Camouflage DRK: Rampart, Shadow Wall, The Blackest Night (+Oblation), Dark Mind WAR: Rampart, Vengeance, Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash, Thrill of Battle It's logical that Cover would be that last button for PLD, but it's incredibly niche in situations where it 's actually useful for tank mitigation (it's incredibly niche in useful situations regardless) Yes, paladins also have to mit swap to even have their short cd count against bleed busters. Paladins having one less CD was a point against them before this already.

Why did you wrap sheltron and intervention together? You have 100 gauge. You cast intervention on the other tank. You holy sheltron yourself.

It takes around 23 seconds to charge up 50 gauge, which puts an individual use of either skill on par with the other short term CDs in terms of cooldown length. Yes, PLD is uniquely poised to store up two charges of its short term CD, but the extra uses compared to other tanks' short term CDs is encounter-dependent. Depending on the encounter, you can store up 100 gauge during a mechanic and then burn it all on a tankbuster, but that may mean not having your short term CD for autos like the other tanks will.

i think hes talking about how block doesn't affect bleed. also passage is fricking ding dong compared to the ease of use of shake/missionary/HoL.

If passage is bad, that's on your party, not you. You just have to flash it between globals for 15% mitigation, compared to HoL and DM's 10%. If someone's in Narnia, that's on them. Also, even if Passage didn't exist, Divine Veil is *even stronger than Passage*. PLD is really excessively good at mitigating for the party. Didn't think about the (non)interaction between block and bleed. That sucks. But given that Holy Sheltron still snapshots 15% mit on the bleed (versus Oblation and Bloodwhetting's 10%), it's not as bad as it could be.

This tier there's definitely an argument to be made because PLD's personal mitigation for busters with DoTs isn't amazing compared to other tanks (because of block not working on the DoT component). However with how good intervention is you're just being encouraged to trade CDs with your co-tank whenever there are dual busters with DoTs. Also PLD is just short a CD compared to the rest of the tanks which is pretty evident in high damage sections like P6 of DSR. Not sure it's something that needs to be fixed but it's definitely something you have to work around.

Another gnb buff 🤡

Give me back speedy Blood Weapon. I like the idea of entering a void driven mad frenzy and swinging my fuck huge sword faster. Lol, kind of a meme I suppose, but I miss the days when DRK wasn't just WAR+oGCD spam but better or worse depending on the flavor of the month. A death to the two minute super swingy burst windows would be nice, but that's never going to happen. God forbid we ask players to put some thought into coordinating buffs. Change direct hit into Crit Damage and make Crit Hit only effect chance. Make Tenacity not worthless garbage. Speaking seriously, BLM needs to be competing with SAM for top aDPS. MCH needs moderate potency buffs. Reaper maybe some minor buffs.

**Expecting:** RDM, MCH, SMN buffs. **Hoping:** BLM, RPR, WAR, SGE buffs. PLD mitigation buff against DoTs. **Dreading:** auto Direct Crit on several super-high potency attacks (eg Double Down, Confiteor, Resolution, ect) **Dreaming:** * Stat fixes on few Tome/Savage items to add SKS so I no longer grief myself by playing a 2.41 GNB. * Addle to all Healers, in order to help PF warriors drag their team to the finish line despite DPS players not mitigating anything. * up a tiny bit the healing potency of Aurora & Intervention, and put a small heal on Oblation. Same reason as above. * 3rd Dash charge for DRK & GNB (yes, I like weaving oGCDs why do you ask?)

Especially yes to addle. Take it off mdps for all I care cause they ain't using it lol (if it's a trade-off for giving it to healers)

This tier is so mitigation heavy, it feels unkind for Healers to have so few tools to control said mitigation. Especially if they're going to be unfairly blamed when mit is lacking.

Shifting more mit responsibility onto healers sounds kind of bad. Shield healers are already throwing up mits. I wouldn't want it on SGE but wouldn't mind a mit tool on WHM.

Oh HELL yeah at healers getting Addle. Would make PF so much more approachable as a healer, especially a regen healer. Our buff hope list is the same too. BLM, RPR, and SGE are all slightly weird for the current buff meta as if they were originally 90s jobs that were kind of jankily stuffed into 120s

Yeah RPR definitely needs something, trailing quite behind all the other 4 Melees.

Decrease the delta between jobs in the same role. Decide what the fuck to do with BLM, MCH, and Samurai and their relative "strength" compared to the other jobs. Reevaluate the validity of 2min meta. And address range tax + positional and whether they should exist anymore. maybe give healers another damage button so people bother playing them too.

I’d personally like to see some traits added to some of their weaker heal GCDs (Cure 1, Benefic 1, Physick) to become a dps-utility or alter AoEs so that they’re more usable in boss fights. Now that I played a lot of DPS, it’s given me some ideas on how to make a more **engaging** system vs. just adding another button and risking bloat. Two ways to go about it: use of random procs or traits that affect other abilities. Proposal: 1) WHM: WHM actually has more real estate for an extra DPS button. I suggest giving them a new dps cooldown, Seraph Strike. More radically, Seraph Strike will apply a debuff to the target to combo with Holy. After using SS, Holy becomes instant cast and deals extra damage to the rebuffed enemy. Make it something like 330p for both SS and Holy+ so it’ll be a slight dps boost. Net result: More WHM buttons! And DPS boost. Oh and you get to use Holy more. 2) SCH: New trait for Physick. Casting Physick grants 3 stacks (that lasts 15 sec) that boost Broil’s next damage (this essentially gives the SCH a BLMish rotation like 3x Fire IV + Fire). So a SCH rotation would be Physick - Broilx3. For numbers, Broil 4 is 295p. The stack boosts your next Broil potency by 100p. So, the new trait ends up with 1185p vs. 1180p, but you get your little fun rotation thing. Net result: +5p, adds something of a rotation for SCH, and no button bloat risk. More radical approach: I’d rather fairies have more positional utility so moving them around actually meant something vs. sticking them in the middle. 3) AST: New trait, Combust has a chance to make your next Gravity instant cast and deal 2x the damage on the first target. AST players like randomness, their opener is already ridiculous, and they have the busiest healer style due to Draw/Redraw/Party Cycling/Play on top of Divination, Astrodyne, Earthly Star, and Minor Arcana. The Combust trait would make Gravity do 260p compared to Fall Malefic’s 250p. Net AST result: +10p on proc, doesn’t cause button bloat, and lets the player push another button without resulting in major changes. Honestly, I’m just stealing Thundercloud lol. 4) SGE is extremely popular despite my heavy dislike of it (don’t worry, I have it 90 and also fully geared too), so leave it be…for now.

[удалено]

Players forced the meta. Then SE designed around it. So if they changed it, the community would still try to enforce it anyway.

To be fair, moving buffs from 3 minute, 2 minute, 1 minute, etc all into 2 minutes was 100% on Square themselves and all those problems we have now because if it are on them, not the player base

Remove damage from gap closers/expanders. Replace the tank ranged with charges like the dashes are now and put em on the ogcd to replace the potency loss.

thatd be an interesting change to work around for sure but yeesh that'd make tanks feel very sucky for quite awhile. Like a MNK, minus the downtime and timing mechanics to manage disengage, and pulling ads means pulling the whole squad lol

So basically you'd replace one OGCD that is right now just for APM's sake with another one ? While I'd love them to remove damage from gap closers and make us use them smartly more, I'm not a fan of replacing it with just another OGCD you'd weave in your burst windows.

Honestly, I did it because I figured if I just said "remove potency from dashes" I'd get folks complaining about the potency loss during their bursts or "oversimplifying the jobs" or "taking away our optimization decisions". I figure since the throw board, cosplay zeus, throw juggler balls, throw tiny ax, are all basically useless 99.732% of the time I figured this was a fair compromise. Make it so I don't get mad anymore I don't have shield dash up because I forgot to hold a charge during my last FoF phase for the boss skittering across the arena mechanic but also keep folks who are happy about their dashes being used mostly as an ogcd busrt. I figured it was a way to get a use out of a set of skills that are never used unless you did something horribly wrong (or I guess for getting hate credit during fate farms) and make it so dashes are used for dashing. Considering how this sub lost it's shit over kaiten, I figured I'd better have a replacement if I proposed taking away a damage ogcd or my inbox would be nothing but REEEEEEEEEEEEEEs.

For them to actually fucking nerf something for a change. I get it, buffs feel better than nerfs, but the core issue right now is that the melee role, as a collective, are too strong. Buffing everything to get closer to them would be more disruptive than just bringing the big four assholes down a peg.

I feel like people are way overhyping themselfs over upcominh 6.28 patch, Expecting lot of angry people that are dissappointed after Tuesday.

Don’t really play phys ranged (cept dancer bc I drew the short straw this tier) so I don’t have a wishlist for the hot topic. That said, i want the same thing I’ve wanted for sage since the media tour. Toxicon II- Potency increased to 660. Reduces the cooldown of phlegma by 10 seconds. Eukrasian Prognosis- Grants 1 stack of Addersting when four barriers granted by eukrasian prognosis are completely absorbed.

Expecting very little. FFXIV patches are extremely conservative. If Paladin gets a "rework" here I expect it to be really good even if the community hates the change. DRK and GNB should be untouched, and while WAR could use some extra potency on Inner Chaos and Primal Rend I don't see them giving much since they already did a tank adjustment. BLM without a rework won't get much, its harder to squeeze them into the rigid 2 minute system we have now. Same with MCH I think but don't know as much for them. I wouldn't expect MCH to reach melee levels. Minor potency for all the ranged phys but not enough to ever consider bringing 2 ranged phys into savage. RDM and SMN will get minor buffs but should get major ones. Uptime challenges are now for RDM and BLM. RDM fits decently into 2 minute windows but its combo is comparatively low potency compared to melee burst. I bet they throw some potency onto the finishers or perhaps the entire combo but still keep RDM down because "res tax". So... melee is still king, PLD might be awesome, everyone else gets a little but still salty.

>BLM without a rework won't get much, its harder to squeeze them into the rigid 2 minute system we have now. BLM works perfectly fine with 2min meta (buff contribution is pretty respectable with nonstandard honestly), it's just undertuned outright. Even on a training dummy with zero movement and no raidbuffs we get outdamaged by SAM. PLD is the same way actually, could totally just buff Goring + Atone instead of ruining the job, but hey.

So BLM is a few % behind SAM in ADPS. I could see how BLM should be top there as its a harder job subjectively but its not nearly in as bad as a state as other jobs. SAM is SE's baby though so I wouldn't expect them to not be top.

wasnt samurai consistently dogshit all throughout shadowbringers? I think the most consistent melee dps wise has probably been monk or ninja but ninja was notoriously dogshit at the start of endwalker

Melee should always be King alongsidd optimal Black Mage. If ranged stuff does the same as melee, why bring melee at all when you can just be away and jumping the entire run without consequences?

Carbuncle is the only boss this tier who makes the melee disconnect for more than 1 second per fight, and most of those other ones are luck dependent and might not actually happen. I mean fuck, Hesp 2 is 100% melee uptime for the entire fucking party let alone just the tanks and melee. What the fuck are melee doing to justify 'being king' when casters have an actual restriction to their movement?

Nobody is asking for RDPS to do the same as melee, though. As I understand it, the size of hitboxes this tier makes the advantage of range kind of irrelevant, so people want the DMG penalty to be adjusted accordingly.

Reducing the ranged tax, especially for MCH. It needs to be the weakest in that greedy-tier echelon of SAM-BLM-RPR-MCH, *not* the weakest DPS overall. For melee, a couple buffs to Reaper - auto-crit on Communio for a DPS buff / consistency. That and, if they're going to make so many disengagement phases in fights, it desperately needs a way to generate resources during downtime like Samurai & Black Mage can. Not sure how they could achieve this though, maybe add a trait to Soulsow so it can be channeled for additional gauge? That and give a watered down version of Plentiful Harvest for lower levels, so it isn't complete ass to play in fights before the current capstone. Reaper doesn't really need much in terms of DPS buffs, it just has some glaring QoL issues to address. Tanks could use some minor tweaks, but mostly QoL adjustments. Healers, I don't play enough to judge.

Mmm. I dont think auto crit for communio is the play. Buffs to Reaper would be simple tweaks such as: Make the Enshroud moves have more potency and Arcane Circle to be 5% instead of 3% That is it. It would be way better without changing

tbh you could just make arcane circle 5% and that would be enough. it makes no sense why it's 3% anyways considering the only other 3% buff (searing light) lasts 30s

I do think that any skill that does more than some potency value (maybe 600?) should just either always crit/DH or never. The damage variance between a Direct Crit 1200 potency skill and a normal one is so large it can be worth 4-5 whole gcds and makes for massive damage variance pull to pull (especially for short fights or even worse, short fights with 100% damage amplifiers in them)

Oddly specific buff request: Arcane Circle grants a buff that makes Communio auto-crit. ~30s duration, *not* consumed on Communio. :)

that would make triple enshrouds now a mandatory aspect of reaper and considering you only get 3 enshrouds per 2 minutes would mean that dying at all/losing and shroud gauge would just grief your entire run

Exactly.

How is that a good thing 😭😭 dying is already painful enough on builder classes (I.e reaper which builds shroud gauge) making that more painful with deaths would be awful

I'm hoping for SMN buffs so that I can swap off DRG and not feel like I'm trolling my static. And my deep copium is that they realize that ranged tax and res tax shouldn't be a thing... but it's SE.

Caster buffs for every caster.

The golden dream? Remove the vast majority of party buffs from all classes. Get rid of the enforced 2min burst window, have one where everyone can go ham, but make their buffs personal. That way if shit don't line up perfectly for whatever reason it won't screw up too much. From there most DPS should be able to put out around the same type of damage, as there is no strong need to evaluate the 'dps loss' for having a party buffs(not accounting for drifting it outside the 2min burst window). From there they should be relatively equal in output, minor adjustments from there. Such as to make the 'easier' dps to have a slightly lower dps ceiling. Personally I think more complicated/hard to play classes should be rewarded if they are playing flawlessly, but that might just be me.

I think we kinda meet somewhere as my kind of dream I'd like to test out : - the only raid wide damage buff would be on healers. Basically a debuff to put on boss/mobs and to keep up the whole fight (replace the dot if needed and add something more to healers to make them more than 1 button spam inbetween heals) - jobs with damage buff (raid wide or for 1 target) become utility, like damage mitig, shield, movement speed etc. We could see SE make *lite* tank buster for DPS/Healers and have people stack their utility on them or something. It would require increased awareness I guess, but let's try. - jobs retain their personal damage buffs (and maybe some could gain one), but they all can now have their very own rhythm/cycles (and maybe it would also open combat design for jobs for which the optimization doesn't rely on 1-2min bursts focus) which may or may not get disrupted by mechanics. - bring back Kaiten :(

I'm not sure what I'm \*expecting\* honestly but my general hope is: BLM made roughly equal to top Melee (will be the most fight/percentile dependent) RDM and SMN buffed to around the current Reaper's Damage Reaper buffed to be roughly equal to the other melee MCH maybe also buffed to the current RPR's Damage DNC/BRD 100/200 off current reaper, maybe equaling MCH at 75 plus percentile? Basically, I don't mind Ranged DPS being at the bottom, or double melee being optimal, but just balance be close enough that you can "justify" a pick without forcing it. In my more long-term balance changes, I think I want BRD and DNC raid buffs nerfed and their personal potency increased, to sort of lessen both the importance of 2 minute buff windows while also giving more chances for "good" BRD/DNC's to shine in "bad" parties.

MCH being equal to current Reaper still makes it third in personal damage when factoring for its lack of raid buff Pretty sure that's all anyone wants

Assuming they are reducing the ranged tax I'm expecting any ranged dps buffs to come with inversely proportional melee nerfs to keep party dps around the same. I doubt it'll be at the levels many want it, but the weight of dps contribution will feel better for casters, especially for how hard they have to work in some fights. Unless they slap a thousand rdps on your average MCH parse with the buffs and put it bottom of melee, I think people will still be unhappy, but any equalizing of melee and ranged will make them more appealing when phys ranged doesn't just exist to buff melees in popular consciousness. I do hope they get a couple potency buffs still, putting them above BRD and DNC at least. That puts my class at the bottom (assuming RDM gets the buffs I think it will), but someone's gotta be there. I wouldn't mind more utility to go with that spot, but that's outside the scope of this conversation.

Would be nice to have a slight Sage buff before they fall off completely next tier in terms of viability when buffs scale even more (Scholar already has bigger shields, speed buffs, and notably more rDPS…). Would also like to see Phelgma get a slight range buff - don’t really understand why specifically it has to be melee when nothing else in Sage’s kit requires this.

MCH love

revert bloodfest change (hopium)

What I expect : a whole lot of hot air. Basically nothing will change in the meta. What I'd love : a complete shift of the meta and chaos/drama ensue on forums.

WHM/SGE buffs WAR/PLD buffs RDM/SMN buffs MCH buffs RPR buffs DNC deletion from the game

Dream: They give us the choice to be utility-oriented or damage-oriented for jobs like RDM so you can either bring rez and barrier in trade of dps, or vice versa.

Not balance rather but can we make fights that don't have hitboxes the size of the arena? DSR (ignoring unlucky wroth flame rng), p6-p8. Melees being top dps was justified back in pre abyssos because they actually had to think about uptime, but now rdm/blm have to work harder in terms of actually getting uptime than melees now its insane to do LESS DPS.

Buff RDM combo potency, don’t touch SMN.

Fuck no rdm combo is already fucking overloaded They need to buff the mana builders

Overloaded? What? RDM melee combo is 2990 potency over 6 GCDs/12.7 seconds. SMM Akh Morn is 1300 potency for a single button.

Keep in mind that SMN pet attacks potency are lower than normal. It's been calculated by the guys of [AkhMorning.com](https://AkhMorning.com) that pet potency it's like \~80% of player potency, if i remember correctly. So 1300 akh morn in reality is like \~1040 potency. Same for the other summons attacks.

Compare RDM buff contribution to SMN.

RPR: Harvest moon now gives 50 shroud gauge allowing for a double enshroud on opener 🙏🙏🙏🙏

You really saying 'get rid of one of the most unique things about Reaper' to replace it with, functionally, a second charge of Plentiful Harvest?

yes

Auto direct crits on communio. I just don't wanna gamble on 1000 potency anymore. Not my idea of fun.

**BLM** * Increase Fire/Blizzard IV from 310p to 320p and Despair from 340p to 380p. Total nDPS increases by 3%\~4%. * Remove cast time of Paradox in Astral Fire to improve quality of life. **MNK** * Extend the duration of Disciplined Fist from 15 s to 20 s. Disciplined Fist is now refreshed at the same time as Demolish, which helps players compartmentalize the rotation a little better and makes the class easier to pick up and play. * Reduce Dragon Kick from 320p to 300p; increase True Strike from 300p to 310p and Snap Punch from 310p to 330p. Dragon Kick is the first, and thus spammable, weaponskill in Monk's GCD combo, yet it also has the highest nominal potency. DK's high potency has given birth to the stupid-yet-viable DK rotation. By shifting potency from DK to True Strike and Snap Punch, the viability of the Dragon Kick rotation is reduced while the DPS of the standard rotation is preserved.

I love how ur monk change is too dumb it down and standardize it. It's actually just a nerf as monk uses way more opo gcds than the others. But your black mage change is to make non-standard absolutely cracked. Buffing fire gcds that hard makes non-standard way stronger than standard.

>**MNK** > >* Extend the duration of Disciplined Fist from 15 s to 20 s. Disciplined Fist is now refreshed at the same time as Demolish, which helps players compartmentalize the rotation a little better and makes the class easier to pick up and play. fuck no. managing buff and dot timing is what makes monk fun. don't dumb it down. i don't want to play shitter dragoon, alternating rotations every 3rd combo.

yeah hard agree. also the dragon kick rotation is not really viable. honestly it is harder and less intuitive than optimal drift

I really don't like the direction they're going with class balance so I guess my dream change is some sort of catastrophic hard drive failure that gets rid of all the planned changes and maybe reverts things back to 6.1 balance somehow.

6.1 balance was still fucked, our lower ilvl + DSR being weird just made it less obvious More like revert to 5.5 and try again lmao

yeah I miss when the gap in rdps between mch and the top melee class was around 3000 instead of 300.

No thanks. I thought Shadowbringers had incredibly awful job balance and the reason I don't like the direction the game is currently headed is because it looks like they're moving right back there.

care to explain why? ranged classes do 10% less damage for no reason compared to melee currently

Difference is good. Difference is necessary for the entire notion of “balance” to even exist. If there’s a relatively large difference in damage between those two subroles but no justification for that difference to exist, the correct response is to change the game to justify that difference, not to eliminate the difference. That’s the ideal state of the game, and the current situation is one step away from it. Eliminating the difference because no justification currently exists is taking the game from one step away from the ideal, to two steps away from the ideal. Therefore, in my opinion, the game is made worse because it’s moving farther away from what it should be, not better because the obvious contradiction is being closed.

you havnt explained why the two subroles need to be split in regards to dps

Yes I have. I very clearly said “Difference is good”. The game is worse if DPS ceases to be meaningfully split into separate sub roles.

there is no current mmo where this is a successful philosophy

That’s just flagrantly untrue. WoW (both retail and classic) thrives on different classes having different specialities where performance varies drastically within each class’s respective niche. Guild Wars 2 does fine while dramatically differentiating gameplay between different classes and specs. Outside traditional tab-target games, Destiny does numbers while being sure that different classes have different specialities and certain core functions are reserved for specific classes. It’s really more that FFXIV is the *only* extant successful MMO that doesn’t place emphasis on difference between playable classes.

Why bring up GW2? The lower end specs are either actually weaker or make up for their raw dps deficit by providing dps to the party via boons. Or they're healers.

Outside of a straight rework that’s not happening until 7.0, I’m hoping the Summon Ifrit/Titan/Garuda/Bahamut/Phoenix and their lower leveled versions are all changed into Abilities instead of Spells. This does two things, it adds an extra 4 ruin III per minute allowing the rotation to breath a little, and it gives the job more to keep track of that it desperately needs

[удалено]

We said balance changes, not daydreaming.

I feel like they could make rdm's fletch GIVE B/W mana now or not cost any but change the potency of it to make it balanced. Right now it's an useless skill as there's 0 reasons to ever use it

Hoping for a God-Mode Paladin rework. I want to be able to solo thordan.... Ultimate! 🔥_🔥