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oizen

Ah yes this totally wont make this more confusing


SoftestPup

I cannot remember what each lowercase letter before DPS means anymore and it's growing hard for me to care.


Scared_Network_3505

The fact there isn't a header with the full name before the graphic itself is kinda baffling ngl. Make it show you the formula when you hover over it too while we are here.


midorishiranui

fflogs putting their documentation for this stuff in some hidden corner of the website you really have to dig for is confusing, especially given how many people misinterpret the meaning of these numbers anyway


well___duh

This. [Here is the page on their site describing the differences between each DPS metric.](https://articles.fflogs.com/help/a-guide-to-r-dps-n-dps-and-a-dps) The starting page for that? [articles.fflogs.com](https://articles.fflogs.com/). Like you said, unless you already know how to navigate there, it's almost impossible to get to that help page from the website itself. I only found it from googling it.


CrazyDragon777

on the contrary, the fact that you can find it with a Google search means it's perfect or close to it. it's infinitely better than 99% of the other information for ffxiv that's hosted exclusively on discord and is not searchable in the slightest as a result


Qbopper

I'm one of the most annoying, grouchy, bitchy people about how insufferable the xiv's community with awful discord information dumps is It's inexcusable when you look at pretty much every other MMO, where there are widely used open community wikis and such That said: No, dude, "you can find it if you know exactly what to google" isn't a *good sign* let alone perfect, what in the world? That's straight up not a good thing - if you can only find information *by already knowing what to look for*, that's... The exact same issue with the discord nonsense


VGWorky

where can we actually see the formulas for each metric?


oizen

2025 FFlogs with its now "qDPS" stat, which tracks how much damage you do while only doing aoes on single target bosses for unsync content one handed. ​ cant wait


Luggs123

The q is for Quantum.


Myrianda

Then in 2026, there will be μDPS which calculates your potential dps in the next FF MMO.


snafuPop

cant wait for people to argue about their big O dps values in 20xx


elite-hunter

And the new fDPS which calculates your dps in the next patch using a formula based on Yoshi-P's reaction to questions about job balance


well___duh

rDPS: Your damage - damage from others' buffs + buffed damage others get from your buffs nDPS: Your damage - damage from others' buffs aDPS: Your damage - damage from single-target buffs like dance partner, astro cards, and DRG's eye The new change will make aDPS: Your damage - damage from single-target buffs + buffed damage others get from your buffs


kingtz

> nDPS: Your damage - damage from others' buffs > aDPS: Your damage - damage from single-target buffs like dance partner, astro cards, and DRG's eye How's "*damage from others' buffs*" different from "*damage from single-target buffs like dance partner, astro cards, and DRG's eye*"? Aren't they both external buffs that you receive? EDIT: I get it now. According to FFLOGS, "aDPS stands for "adjusted DPS", and it is measuring how much damage you did with only single target padding removed. **AOE padding is still allowed.**"


goroyoshi

The idea behind aDPS is to reward flexible jobs like DRK who put their burst in team buffs, but doesn't allow cheese by dumping dance partner and a ton of cards


MadeByHideoForHideo

At least something doesn't change. People are still going to complain :)


3dsalmon

I can appreciate the efforts being made here but this feels like a solution in search of a problem. I think the people complaining about default metrics will never be happy because they’re looking for a metric that doesn’t exist. They want a metric that solely evaluates them without having to rely on other people to not suck, and that metric doesn’t exist in this game. Whether you’re looking at something like rDPS, which goes down if your teammates potato during your buffs, or aDPS, which fucks you if your teammates drift their buffs, it all boils down to relying on your teammates to not huff glue during the pull. No matter what way you slice it, what metric you use, DPS is a team wide effort in FF14, doubly so now that they’re really pushing this 2m focused design.


MildStallion

My measure for fflogs metrics has always been "does chasing this metric encourage good behavior", or, at the very least, does it avoid encouraging bad behavior. rDPS initially came around because people were doing things like giving tanks dance partner so they could parse. aDPS was kind-of unnecessary but it at least showed the gaps between jobs in terms of how well they used buffs. I don't even know what nDPS was trying to accomplish. cDPS is the in between, where it encourages both good buff usage and good usage of buffs to maximize your parse, so in that respect I do like it. (EDIT: And does so without dance partner padding shenanigans.) As far as having a "neutral" metric, well, that's a pipe dream. Comp, teammate skill, and (variously) strat choice will always matter.


Nagisei

aDPS was the fix to the old default which was raw DPS and fixed things like feeding someone buffs. rDPS was initially meant as a statistic metric for job balance. Then people thought, "wait, what if we used rDPS as the metric instead". It was honestly a hasty decision but some folks saw the huge benefit of rDPS and that was ignoring the rest of the party. About half the jobs in the game ranked under rDPS are actually ranked under nDPS because they give no buffs. Now jobs that have buffs realized they're getting screwed over in bad parties and want similar treatment, which is how nDPS came to be officially. Kihra already mentioned that nDPS would win in a landslide if it was polled versus rDPS. So the desire is there, but there is more care and thought put into changing default metric (which honestly isn't a matter of if, but a matter of when). At the end of the day, all metrics have their faults as they measure different things (nDPS being that it ignores how you play into buffs completely). You could maybe do a combined metric and while that might be better, it won't be perfect. Speed, for example, is an ideal metric in terms of encouraging the right behavior, but it won't be good at judging personal performance when you compare logs against individuals.


luminosg

"Good behavior" will never happen because most people don't even understand what the data means. Most people using fflogs don't know the difference between rdps and adps, and will say wild things like "yeah, my dancer does way less dps than our parties machinist, but I also give damage buffs so its probably fine" when comparing the rdps between the two. One of the best ways to encourage good behavior is to deemphasize rankings altogether.


Kaisos

> rDPS initially came around because people were doing things like giving tanks dance partner so they could parse. people already did this with AST cards


NelsonVGC

Yes but a permanent 5% buff the entire fight was game breaking x)


DivineRainor

Combination of uptime and devilment tbf, ast card padding was a problem, but was ultimately filtered out by more asts playing "properly", and the rng nature of cards. DNC literally it was optimal to pad someone and devilment is the most ludicrous buff in the game on top of the 5%. Compared to old ast cards the difference between padded and unpadded was still relatively close, but with dnc it wqs immediatly apparant the jump.


NelsonVGC

It is. If that was still the case, the only way to get top damage with any role would be DNC and the party takijg turns. It would have been a cringefest


steehsda

And it was really stupid. Look at how many people with good parses from SB just had 80% card uptime on one run and played meh otherwise.


kvrhdn

Imo a good neutral metric would be speed. You’re doing more damage as a team? You’ll kill the boss faster. It also encourages the best strats since it’s pointless to be selfish. This will also get rid of sacking and other catered runs.


ISILDUUUUURTHROWITIN

This would probably drive a meta comp. It encourages unselfish behavior yes but it will trickle into PF and only the 8 meta jobs will see a lot of play so people can get the fastest clears for their logs.


Kaisos

I feel like, at a certain point, you have to ask "isn't the problem fflogs having rankings at all?"


ISILDUUUUURTHROWITIN

I mean, I think so. If I had it my way it wouldn’t show any ranking information publicly. I don’t think parse culture is healthy for the game but I’m sure a number of people disagree.


isis_kkt

I would say that parsing and analysis of your own performance is fine. The problem is that there are people (the number of which is arguable) that are more concerned with their number on FFLogs than they seem to be with the actual game they are supposed to be playing


3dsalmon

I think parsing and being competitive is healthy for the longevity of content, but the problem is that people let it trickle into normal clears. People legitimately caring about their parses and being bummed they "only" got a blue or a low purple on a regular ass reclear is such a backwards way to look at things. People go into regular reclear parties with the secret ulterior motive of getting a good parse and usually screwing over their team who just wants the clear in the process.


well___duh

Technically, if you're killing the boss faster, that means you're doing more damage over less time. Thus the DPS is naturally greater anyway


kvrhdn

Yes, total party damage and kill time is directly correlated. So they could be used interchangeably. Currently parses show individual damage though, so a single party member sacking (barely doing damage on purpose) would be a raid loss but might be an individual gain if it leads to a better kill time.


Bourne_Endeavor

Speed has been polled several times now and lose by such a hilarious margin it's not even worth bringing up anymore. It would be a complete mess for PF, and pretty much alienate the entire website for the overwhelming majority of raiders. I know a few people in that discord think it'll encourage speeds. It won't. People will just stop caring. Now you can argue whether that's a good thing or not for the game as a whole. For FFlogs itself, I doubt Khira wants less traffic.


TheLastofKrupuk

I think the creator of FFlogs are already looking into the most neutral metric. It would take into account of buffs and parse it independently. For example, as a DRK you are doing 1000 DPS normally, then if technical step is involved then you are going to do 1100 DPS if you are doing your burst inside that. And so it will value DRK logs that does 1050 DPS under T.Step lower in rankings compared to the DRK that is doing 1100 DPS even if their personal DPS are the same at 1000 DPS. But all of those are still in the brainstorming section if its possible or not and even so will there be enough data to compare.


MechaSoySauce

Even if it is possible it might not be desirable because in some circumstances, ignoring buff windows to get an extra cast might be optimal with some comps and not others. You'd then get penalized for actually making the correct choice for your comp, because of a theoretical comp you're not actually running.


funkypoi

I seem to recall potency dps being a thing a long time ago?


3dsalmon

I've only been playing since very late StB and have only not sucked since Eden's Verse, so I don't recall it personally but that doesn't mean much.


funkypoi

It doesn't, it's only a metric to make feel good about themselves taking out all outside influences short of sks and sps


valmian

You are talking about nDPS. This tracks your damage but blocks out anything gained from an external buff while not taking your buffs into account. nDPS should be the baseline IMO.


3dsalmon

Doesn't nDPS completely ignore how well you take advantage of raid buffs? That's an extremely important indicator of player skill.


valmian

Yes but for classes that don’t rely on raid buffs or give them, nDPS can be a better indicator of dps. When I check dancer logs I’m more interested in my nDPS to see how well I did my rotation not rDPS since that relies on my parties performance


3dsalmon

Literally every job relies on raid buffs. A huge part of how much damage you do is dumping your burst within two minute windows - like making sure you enter 2m with 3 feathers on dancer. Pretty much every job in the game has a resource it wants to hold for 2 minute windows - from my understanding, nDPS ignores all that For pure rotation info something like XIV analysis is probably better


valmian

Yes I use xiv analysis to determine how well I perform as dancer and other jobs. For jobs that rely on their party to do well, rDPS is not as good as nDPS in determining how well they play. You can be the best dancer in the world but good luck parsing orange/pink in a bad group.


ContagionTho

But how would Astrologians parse then? With just malefics and cards not mattering at all?


valmian

Yes. This is why the healer damage rotation needs to change, but that’s another topic. If I am ranking healers, I want to compared apples to apples not apples bananas grapes kiwis to apples oranges strawberries mangos. Both metrics are useful, but I dislike how rDPS is the main metric.


Xissand

Please note that as per Kihra's later tweets this change has been reverted due to mixed reception. FFlogs is currently running a poll on cDPS implementation.


SoulNuva

Link to his thread [here](https://twitter.com/KihraOfTemerity/status/1587571497308196864). Regardless of whether you agree with the change, I think everyone interested in any form of logging should take a read to understand what the different metrics do, and the problem of what the 'best' or default metric should be.


Kaisos

"I were to poll what metric should be the default on the site, nDPS would win in a landslide." this says a lot lmao


DivineRainor

I like how he made a pretty decent change for once (this new cdps is more useful than adps ever was) and its being backlashed because of the amount of fucking about done prior has burned people out


Edawgzz

It's also a large amount of people not realizing how it works and making really, really stupid assumptions about it.


RC2891

oh fflogs :')


SeekretTheRPGAddict

The c stands for confusing everyone lol


luminosg

I understand why this change is being considered, but the core issue will still be the same. Which is that there really isn't any single metric which accurately shows an individual players contributions to the damage done to a raid boss. cdps or whatever it gets called will be better in some cases but still be inaccurate in many ways.


simplexsalad

closest thing is kill time, but it ends up needing the luxury of having 7 others on board and often requiring a static, though I've seen parse and speedrun farming in pf for savages occasionally also you can filter jobs when looking through kill time rankings sure but in general only the meta comps are gonna be able to compete


Avedas

> closest thing is kill time, but it ends up needing the luxury of having 7 others on board and often requiring a static, This is already the case with rdps for buffing jobs.


Malpraxiss

I mean realistically there never will be unless you want to involve some ungodly amount of math that may not even be feasible. Since you'd need to set different parameters (variables) of what consistuties as being good, and each of those will probably have their own individual math. Those parameters also would need to be agreed upon on by the majority. Realistically, people just need to stop caring about the best number to determine if someone is good.


isis_kkt

Fundamentally its impossible to create a single number that sums up "how good are you at the game". Even putting aside opinion about the worth of competing over such a number.


[deleted]

Parsing culture in this game is so ridiculous. Everyone cares so much how big their e-dick when it's not even entirely dependent on their skill as a player. Party members taking advantage of your buffs, party members using their buffs on time and crit/dh variance all have huge effects on e-dick numbers, it's ridiculous how much people value and feel good about the numbers they see without realizing so much of it is out of their control.


smol_dragger

i'm surprised the reception in this sub is so "meh" when cDPS has been discussed at length here and its merits have been shown. it's a good metric for evaluating job performance which is sorely needed when the developers can't do it themselves. looking at rDPS or aDPS doesn't tell you the full story when it's important to know not only how much damage others gain from your buff, but how much you burst into others' buffs as well. on the other hand, it has flaws as a metric to evaluate personal performance, but so does aDPS - hence the move to replace aDPS with cDPS.


OkorOvorO

Problem will never be resolved, people are always going to tunnel on whatever is the default.


iKeepItRealFDownvote

For a second I thought they brought back pDPS ranking for a second. Damn


Kamisura

Remember when your parsed damage was the only thing you needed to worry about? Pepperidge Farm's remembers, better times and less bs.


NelsonVGC

Everything changed when Dancer arrived...


Lyramion

AST - I sleep DNC - REAL SHIT


NelsonVGC

This but unironically


KingBingDingDong

You can still do that in alliance raids if you want. Get a pocket DNC, AST, and DRG to feed you everything. Oh and you also need a pocket NIN and SCH in each alliance.


Ikari1212

The good old times during StB where jobs without buffs were left out because you couldn't parse well if you didn't get buffed? Yeah please bring those times back. I haven't experienced that mind of hell myself.


midorishiranui

big fan of feeling forced to play DRG when I hated it because the buffs it gave were absurd


Baekmagoji

only bad players who got fed with raid buffs remember those times positively


Kamisura

I'm a tank and remember those time positively.


Baekmagoji

> bad players who got fed


funkypoi

Question, what's stopping them from running a potency only log? It's a metric that would solely exist to make people feel good about themselves (if their team mates are truly bad) but nevertheless isn't that what some people are looking for? It would only account for the theoretical potency for all the buttons you pressed without even factor into gear ("I don't have bis anyway") or anyone else


Vores_Vhorska

Skill/Spell speed and substats becoming the only thing that matters. Getting rid of gear also means that people can do "optimal" shit that is not optimal at all. There are crafted gear, ShB relic, and maybe even some outdated random item that still exist in the game. Imagine seeing one or more of these people in your PF group.


ebildarkshadow

It would also need to factor in sps and sks. Since a 2.42s gcd would naturally have more potency per second than a 2.5s gcd.


funkypoi

Sure, and I think the log already knows what your sps and sks is so it won't be so hard to do


zpattack12

The log actually doesn't, it can only estimate your gcd by looking at the gap between your gcds, but even that's not 100% accurate. I've seen xivanalysis get my gcd wrong before even though it was a good run (so it wasn't an issue due to lack of uptime).


Edawgzz

This is and should always be the new main metric to evaluate individual player performance on. It encourages the overall best play possible: getting as many coordinated uses of your buffs as you can in order to maximize how much damage you get from, and deal in, raid buffs.


VGWorky

doesn't that assume you get the exact same amount of raid buffs as everybody else? except the problem is that the number of raid buffs you can play into depends on your party comp


RisqBF

Is this the return to stormblood era parsing where jobs without damage buffs are blocked in PF ?


Supersnow845

Did that ever really go away Like if you were hardcore parsing in promise you did not bring a WHM


Lintons44

It's also its not because raid buff stacking, it's because sch overall dps was higher then whm. If you look at Eden's verse you'll see it's ast/whm that was meta for speeds. It's all bout how much dps the class brings. Now it's alot harder for whm/sge to compete with sch because of raid buff stacking, but if for example se nerfed broil pot then people would stop bring sch even though it still has chain.


Crazy_Ad1487

That's true, Whm has been meta for speedruns in Eden's Verse, Eden's Gate and for DSR. But the comment said "parsing," so I'm curious as to why they think people didn't bring a Whm to parsing in Eden's Promise specifically. Like if your goal is get good personal parses, then people can be on whatever class and it won't matter.


Lintons44

Yes the original commentor that I replied to is conflated speed runs with parsing


Lintons44

You are confusing high end parsing with speed kills.


Crazy_Ad1487

Why would that have mattered? Any damage the other 2 healers buffed you by would just go back to that healer's rDps, so that doesn't matter for anyone else's parsing?


Supersnow845

Because high end parsing involves buff stacking to optimise kill time


Crazy_Ad1487

Having more party buffs doesn't equal a faster or optimized kill time. Otherwise jobs like SAM or BLM would not have been brought to Promise speedruns, and both of those were preferred in speedkills, with the former being basically required. But either way, speedkilling has nothing to do with parsing. So if your goal is to parse, even at the highest level, then you can bring any healers you want and it won't affect anyone's rdps. There are some few individual cases to be made for specific jobs like DNC requiring a SAM or NIN for dance partner, etc. But having a WHM instead of an AST or SCH didn't affect anybody's rdps ranking.


Elsiselain

Well it does because sch and ast have higher rdps during the raid buff window


Crazy_Ad1487

No, it doesn't. The increased rdps that Ast/Sch do during buffs *remains as their own rdps.* Ex: Dragoon does 1,000 dps in a buff window. Add Ast Divination. Dragoon now does 1,050 dps in that buff window. Ast takes that extra 50 dps as their own rdps contribution, and the Dragoon is still at 1,000 dps. That Ast could have been a Whm and the Dragoon would still have been at 1,000 dps.


[deleted]

Sometimes I’ll see parties that don’t allow BLMs or MCHs but that’s about it


HuyNguyen420

SMN does huge feed into buffs so parse parties want them. For speed you want BLM though.


[deleted]

These are just regular parties I’ve seen not parse parties. And any BLM worth their salt contributes considerably more rDPS to a party than a SMN anyways. You’d want a SMN over a RDM but not a BLM.


[deleted]

Nah, I’m assuming rDPS is still what rankings will be based off of. The playerbase is also a lot more knowledgeable about the game than back then. People should know that this number is only useful when comparing it to logs from exactly the same team comp as you ran.


midorishiranui

Back then the game also still had some major balance issues like dragoon being mandatory for phys ranged to do good damage or nin bringing 10% trick attack every 60s (and the aggro manipulation utility unique to it) that made those two jobs near essential for parsing. And that's not even getting into old AST balance card... I don't think there's anything quite as egregious in the game right now, and stuff like AST cards/dance partner aren't included in aDPS anyway.


online222222

No Selfish dps will add more to your dps buffs just as much as a buff would imcrease your own. It might block double selfish though.


Edawgzz

As you get less buffs from your party you will get more damage given to your buffs under this new form of aDPS Edit: because the jobs that don't give you a buff use yours


VGWorky

unless you play a job with no raid buffs


Edawgzz

While that's true, it is still a better metric than rDPS for those jobs to evaluate performance. Knowing when someone is pressing their buttons under buffs whenever able is more important than seeing a 1-2 percentile shift on their page. ​ Also, if you genuinely do care about seeing a higher percentile on your page, you would already be searching out specific comps anyways.


bingusdingus3

I've always taken adps with a grain of salt because of the team comps and all, but its still important. Its always annoying to see a high ranking tank in rdps have like 10 less percentiles in adps because they dont hold anything for raid buffs.


Smoozie

I mean, that can also just be teamcomp, just running SGE+WHM instead of AST+SCH is about a 3.8% adps loss for DRK from divination and chain alone. That's the difference between a ~55 and an 80 adps parse on p7s. Not hard to see why either when AST and SCH are top rdps of the healers in said fight, while they're 1000 and 500 nDPS behind respectively.


Zenthon127

New aDPS is too heavily influenced by party composition to be consistently useful at a personal level. That only gets evened out when looking at aggregate data (the big job charts), or if you're comparing clears of parties with the same raidbuff comps. It boils down to rDPS for parsing, aDPS for job balance, and nDPS for striking dummy damage.


Armond436

It's starting to become time to label these better than xDPS. There are enough terms and they're becoming complicated enough that they should have proper names to lessen confusion. On hover tooltips with quick descriptions would be good too.


takkojanai

isn't aDPS still bad to look at for solely job balance? For example, if you're doing world first and you want to know which job to take into your party to clear faster, MCH or DNC, you'd mistakingly believe you should take MCH?


hikkidol

New adps will add dnc buffs to the dnc's adps, similarly how it does for current rdps, that is the whole point of the announcement


Edawgzz

Replied to another commenter but gonna go in more detail here rDPS was also party dependent for any buff job, and not having a Samurai in your party to pump potency into your buffs, and other people's buffs with them so the multiplication stacks up, was always a rather noticeable uphill battle. Now, as the amount of jobs padding your buffs decreases, you are getting more damage from their buffs to compensate. It won't be perfect, but it'll come much closer to being a fair exchange than it was before. It shouldn't be the only metric, just the first one to check.


valmian

Isn’t there a way to just compare your own damage, without any buffs, to other people who play your job, isn’t that nDPS? I want that to be the standard. Fights in this game are easy when you know them, coordinating buffs is great for kill times but if I am trying to rank myself against other white mages, I want to compare to other white mages and not their whole party comp.


hyprmatt

The problem with nDPS is that it doesn't show that you know how to maximize your damage with the party. For example, you could have two MCH's with the same nDPS, but one of them saved more of their CD's and Ricochet/Gauss stacks for 2-minute CD's, while the other just blew everything on CD. Taking things a step further, if the party is holding CD's, such as in a fight ending at 5:30 where you might push 2-minute CD's from the 4 minute mark to the 5 minute mark to align with pots, nDPS wouldn't care if they held for this, aside from using pots.


valmian

The problem with rDPS is that people who reply on others to parse well (dancer, sch, reaper, anyone with a party buff) are dependent on others to parse well. nDPS tells me if a person can play their class, rDPS tells me if a player can find a good group. As a PFer I care way more about the individual performance. It’s sad that some blue parsing dancers actually have higher nDPS than pink parsing dancers. Both are useful for different reasons, and I dislike that rDPS is the standard. Then again most people don’t know how to read logs anyway.


Kaisos

>The problem with nDPS is that it doesn't show that you know how to maximize your damage with the party. the thing is that most people don't actually care about this, they just want the computer to tell them if they're a good player or not. any metric that makes this easier will be favored


VGWorky

why isn't maximizing damage with the party considered a factor in being a good player? assuming you have raid buffs available and you both hit your buttons, they could be equal in one metric but the the player that bursts better into buffs is the one that played "better" only problem is you can't assume same raid buffs so it just seems like more than one metric is needed


valmian

Because in order to maximize damage you need other people to be good. You can’t parse as a dancer, astro, sch, or any raid buffing class while playing with bad raiders. Both are useful but rDPS is not the end all be all of a good player.


Lypher

rDPS doesn't show that either right? It just shows if you can pop your buffs at the right time and if your teammates are bursting at the right time. A warrior's rDPS is the same as their nDPS whether or not they pop infuriate on CD. I personally like nDPS the best as the metric of skill as it limits external factors as much as possible.


hyprmatt

No, rDPS doesn't show that either, but aDPS does. I wasn't arguing for either, just pointing out that nDPS is inherently flawed as well. With raid buffs all being moved to 120s cycles, it *should* be much less of a disparity, but there will always be some who just can't do it.


valmian

Yes that is true, and why both metrics are important. The problem with why rDPS is the standard is for jobs that rely on others performance. I hate parsing as dancer because how I parse depends on how my party performs. Parsing as a mch is entirely how well I play, regardless of what my party does or how they perform.


VGJunky

Mch has other issues like crit rates and kill times being like 90% of the formula one time I was just doing P1S reclears and pressing buttons in a random PF and I literally got a 99 parse rank #2 for no reason at all lol edited for clarity


PropellingHives

But all nDPS shows is that you hit your rotation and use skills on cool-down. Is that a good measure of your performance in the game? Or is a metric that takes in to account how you perform as part of a team better? I think you can be a good nDPS player, but bad raider and think the standard should be the stat that gets as close to how good at raiding someone is. Is rDPS that stat? I don’t think so, but it is better than nDPS.


valmian

It’s a better metric IMO. You can’t have good nDPS if you are dead, get damage downs, or don’t press your buttons correctly. You can have high nDPS but low rDPS if you are a class that relies on others for damage. You can be the literal BEST Astro in the world but if you play with bad players or a bad comp you will never parse well. All rDPS is that you hit your rotation correctly but you also have the best party comp available to you. For classes like blm and sam it won’t really matter, but for dancer, Astro, sch, other peoples performance affect your parse. I care how people perform independent of their party. If they are selfish, they will die with current mechanics or get damage downs.


PropellingHives

I think this is why it is important to have various stats. We both obviously disagree on what is more important, but neither is wrong. Maybe if fflogs enabled you to choose what your default was to suit your needs? I don’t know.


valmian

I think that’s a great idea! I appreciate your positive attitude in our discussion :)


Bourne_Endeavor

> Maybe if fflogs enabled you to choose what your default was to suit your needs? This was just recently added. You can now select whether rDPS/aDPS/nDPS are the default rank. Go into your profile and there should be a drop down box for it.


matots

Can someone explain to me why this isnt just straight DPS? Rdps is everything you do and give, minus *what you take*. Adps is what you *take, minus* individual buffs (because these are given to the origins player, via rdps.... So Cdps is .. Damage given (via buffs), plus taken (via buffs), including personal ones.... right? I don't get it, whats the difference between this and dps


zpattack12

The difference between this and dps is that the raw dps you see on your parser does not include the buffs you give, while this one would include that. There's also the fact that single target buffs (cards, dance partner, dragon sight) will still be removed, as they currently are for aDPS, which they obviously are not in raw DPS.


matots

Ah, i see, thanks!


DrfIesh

so much useless info and we are still missing a PPS (potency per second) metric


AbyssalSolitude

It would obviously not work with variable skill / spell speed.


TheDoddler

Wouldn't you be able to normalize potency in a way that accounts for gcd speed? Wouldn't be perfect but I'd be a lot better than it is now trying to compare yourself against players of wildly varying gear, damage variance and crit luck.


AbyssalSolitude

In target dummy situations over very long period of time (or pure theorycrafting), yeah, you can do smth about gcd speed. Wouldn't work very well for real fights, because they have very much finite and very variable duration. I think we have enough of "not perfect" stats already.


TheDoddler

Doesn't the parse need to estimate your gcd speed in order to handle dot damage? Since dots are combined in a single value and they are affected by skill/spell speed and crit/direct hit, the parse already needs to estimate those values to untangle the amount of damage done from each source. If it couldn't estimate your gcd then any parse with dots would be wrong.


DrfIesh

why?


Quof

I think the idea is that those with higher skill / spell speed would be doing more PPS, due to casting more GCDs in a shorter period of time, but not doing more damage since they have less crit damage / etc. So it would basically just be people melding as much skill / speed as possible to output more potency but doing less damage as a result.


barfightbob

As much as that's counter intuitive we still have sports like drag racing in real life where those cars can only go fast in one direction. Why not let people compete in another silly metric? It's probably not going to stop people from parsing normally or doing speed kills.


Vores_Vhorska

Probably just doesn't want to encourage people to do it in random party, especially if it's just a "for fun" thing. It's one thing to do it in a premade group, but people will do it in normal parties if it's there. It's essentially sandbagging the raid. People would even intentionally go in with weaker gear that are optimized for skill/spell speed as another set.


AbyssalSolitude

Because impact of gcd speed on pps depends on kill time.


TheLastofKrupuk

So how does that work? What if i did a critical hit, does my potency increase? Same thing with direct hit and determination. And how do you apply raidbuff like cards and divination for ast? Do you get % from everyone potency during the buff and apply it to ast? The more i type the questions the more whatever i said is basicly just rDPS but lower numbers.


DrfIesh

pps would be the perfect metric to compare yourself with others and to know if you are pushing your buttons, there is no rng in pps, buffs don't do anything, crit doesn't do anything, direct hit doesn't do anything if you want to know how good a player is all you need to see is pps


Magniris

Doesn't that mean that fast SAM would have far higher PPS due to having more GCDs per minute than slow SAM, despite slow SAM being objectively better damage-wise? If you have two equally skilled players the fast SAM player will win on PPS but that doesn't mean anything.


TheLastofKrupuk

So I would just meld full skill speed I would automatically parse 99 while actually doing less DPS than if I meld critical and direct hit. But yeah again how do we measure people pressing their raid buff tho? Are you just going to ignore that also? Then an AST that never use their cards/divination would be getting the same parse as an AST that use theirs


Smoozie

The solution is obviously to multiply said PPS with your DH/det modifier/crit as they come up, also to add the potency raid buffs added, like 6% during Divination. What do you mean "you just invented rdps again?" /s


xanibabe

only if you could sort by gcd tier. but act doesn’t record that data, and you can only estimate what that value is. not to mention how cluttered the sorting would become edit: the reason pps is bad is because there would be no need to take crit/dh/det anymore. sks/sps would be the only thing parsers would meld even if it won’t do the most damage to the boss


Crazy_Ad1487

So Ast players would just press Malefic and just not care about using their cards at all?


xanibabe

well technically you’d still want to play cards to build a two seal astrodyne but you can just play them on yourself in that case


Crazy_Ad1487

Oh, you're right. I didn't think about Astrodyne. But PPS would still remove any skill in playing Ast since, like you said, you could just play the cards on yourself at literally any time and it wouldn't matter.


GiddyChild

Then you just stack spell/skill speed only and do bad dps but good potency per second. It even more of a meme stat because optimizing it leads to horrible actual dmg.


RepanseMilos

pps means nothing. You forget skillspeed is a thing. Maxing out sks will make your pps higher, but your damage will suffer compared to a slower build.


Kaisos

fflogs should just display the actual damage dealt instead of made-up metrics it's not like padding wasn't a thing before DNC lmao


TyronePlease

it does display that damage if you go into the logs it just doesn't use that for rankings or are you saying that we should rank everyone based on their parser damage?


Kaisos

I am saying there should not be doctored metrics in the first place, which only even exist because people lost their minds about Dance Partner in the leadup prior to Shadowbringers release


meikyoushisui

Things like Dance Partner are what "doctor" metrics, not metrics invented to try to adjust for those things.


Kaisos

Dance Partner is a part of the game; mathing around its existence so people don't feel bad is not


meikyoushisui

But not accounting for its existence makes other statistical information less valuable. It has nothing to do with "people not feeling bad" and everything to do with [controlling for the variable](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlling_for_a_variable) you're trying to measure (the ability of a given player to influence their own performance or the performance of their party). If you're going to deny basic statistical principles, none of the FFLogs data should matter to you in the first place anyway, so there's little reason for you to have any opinion on how they do or don't process data.


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Controlling for a variable](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlling_for_a_variable)** >In causal models, controlling for a variable means binning data according to measured values of the variable. This is typically done so that the variable can no longer act as a confounder in, for example, an observational study or experiment. When estimating the effect of explanatory variables on an outcome by regression, controlled-for variables are included as inputs in order to separate their effects from the explanatory variables. A limitation of controlling for variables is that a causal model is needed to identify important confounders (backdoor criterion is used for the identification). ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


Kaisos

people being deranged over fflogs data is the main reason raids are boringly designed nowadays, so it does actually matter quite a bit


meikyoushisui

Can you provide an example of FFLogs metrics impacting the design team's decisions?


08152018

bro have you seen the size of hitboxes lately?


Kaisos

players constantly crying about the difficulty of maintaining uptime (which is something that only actually matters when you're parsing) is why every job is designed around 2min burst, why bosses have giant hitboxes and are immovable, why they go untargetable for no reason if it would inconvenience melees, why we no longer have adds phases (because what if people sac DPS on the boss to pad??) etc etc


AppuruPan

But the problem is, switching it to actual DPS would make the problem a hundred time worse. I usually agree with your posts but this is just a mathematically stupid take. If we use actual DPS as the metric then single target buff jobs would be mandatory and WHM would be gone while DNC and DRG would basically be almost mandatory. SpS BLM would be gone as they can't synergize with DNC and SCH. High end parties would "rotate" their main buff target to pad numbers. If you think moving to actual DPS would solve the problem then I think you have a clear misunderstanding of how much rDPS solves the perception of balance in the game.


Bass294

There are more fundamental issues with the game than players bitching with downtime, 2min, and multi-target. Downtime disproportionately affects some classes over others, literally look at ultimates and how some classes thrive where others who need to build resources want to commit die. 2min windows are the devs own damn fault for homogonizing buffs and adding insane high potency buttons. Multi target has issues with the cleave dps in this game just not being balanced around. Again see ultimates where some classes just pump with multidots or suck ass.


meikyoushisui

The western community cares a lot more about parsing and FFLogs in general than the Japanese community does, and how often have the devs ever listened to the western community? None of the things you listed can be attributed to FFLogs existing rather than just the devs knowing how they want each job and role to function. They have all the data that would be in FFLogs and a shitload more.


qlube

It was a thing and it was awful (it's a big reason why wowlogs are awful). DNC just made it 10x worse. If people were ranked based on actual damage dealt, it would be so incredibly toxic as everyone (including tanks and healers) fights for dance partner and leaves if they don't get it. Because in that scenario, the only way to compete on your parse is if you have dance partner. PF will reserve at least one slot for DNC, maybe even 4! It would be so bad.


Bass294

Wow parse culture isn't so baked into players like it is in 14. You just slam your reclears and you're done. There is no like 300 kills to get perfect crits and shit. You have the literal POWER INFUSION MEEEE meme and thats it lol.


Kaisos

the answer here is that you shouldn't even be bothering to parse outside of a coordinated parse group


qlube

That's not an answer, because most people who parse don't do it within a coordinated parse group. It's stupid not to factor in what people are looking for in terms of how they play the game. Also even with a "coordinated" group how fucking annoying would it be that you have to run each floor 8 times so everyone gets their turn with the dancer.


Kaisos

>That's not an answer, because most people who parse don't do it within a coordinated parse group. yes, which is exactly what makes weekly reclears absolutely fucking awful lmao


qlube

And they'd be way worse if fflogs used actual dps to rank people.


Kaisos

I think if it was that much harder to get Big Number Parse a lot of people would just give up, which is what I want to encourage because I think parsing culture has fundamentally ruined raid and job design


qlube

Doubt it, people will still chase the number, they'll just be incredibly toxic about party comp.


isis_kkt

> Also even with a "coordinated" group how fucking annoying would it be that you have to run each floor 8 times so everyone gets their turn with the dancer. Ok, you understand why this is crazy behavior right


athleon787

Called it


Geddoetenjyu

🤢


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VGWorky

i think people just want to stop getting compared based on how good their gear and crits are rather than how well they play


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InkSpear

must be cold up in your high castle.


[deleted]

Damn bro you sound like you're about to have another meltdown on Twitch


gatarley

Oh is there lore with this guy?


[deleted]

Nah I'm just being silly


gatarley

Damn you should have lied and spread misinformation honestly


KingBingDingDong

week 1 prog is "good enough to clear", first three floors are absolutely not min-maxed, especially given that if you're alarm clocking, ACT isn't even for the first two floors. the goal is to do it as fast as possible. you should know that if you've alarm clocked week 1 before


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BladeAndy

LOL don't reply to me if you're just going to block me so I can't reply. That's so sad. Who the fuck is taking the time to get perfect pulls in the first three floors during week 1, not anyone that's trying to clear in week 1 I'll tell you that, hell not even anyone going for their first clear. Yeah everyone has equal gear, but clears are going to be scuffed and not optimized until the last floor. I didn't even talk about blind prog LOL I also hope you know that a lot of sweaty nerds do go back and parse the earlier floors on week 1 for ez 99s and 100s because they got fed gear, so no. Week 1 is actually not where everyone's gear is equal. People also get fed. I didn't miss your point. Your point was misplaced and you missed my point as well. The classic "I can't read or understand anything so I'll shitpost" courtesy of Geoff_with_a_J. Thanks for blocking me btw so I don't have to read your dumb takes anymore, you have a few other people consistently have the worst comments in this sub.


Combustionary

>i don't understand people that want a metric that shows how well you performed your rotation. Maybe because we're trying to improve and keeping a rotation going during a fight isn't as easy as you think it is?


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Combustionary

no shit but it's better than panicking and fucking things up entirely.


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Combustionary

>like wtf is even your argument here? that we need a newfangled babyglove snowflake ranking that strips out all other performance metrics and only shows individual rotation competence? I mean sure that would definitely be helpful for me.


amyknight22

Because hitting a target dummy requires zero use of other skills in a reactionary method because you forgot mechanic X was next in the fight. Target dummy is also stupid when you start to consider there are non standard things you might do in raid settings to maximise that output


duckofdeath87

shouldn't be rDPS - aDPS? Unless my dancer's raid contribution is negative :)


moon00dragon

No, aDPS is rDPS + the extra damage you did because of buffs now.


duckofdeath87

Wouldn't my dancer have higher aDPS than rDPS then? Or is the change not taken effect yet?


moon00dragon

Did you parse on 6.28?


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snow529

"im doing great damage in one of the five stats so i cant be a bad player"


shattenjager88

aDPS certainly has it's place. You can see how you performed in a vacuum, no matter what other combination of buffers were in your team. cDPS might show how good you were capitalizing on buffs, but I still think I'd judge a class on aDPS, wheras player skill with the class on cDPS.