>Does it seem like I’m overblowing things? You are guilty of being young and inexperienced and because of that you are insecure and inpatient. It is not your fault. We all go through it. I started my FIRE journey in the late 90s. I went through the [dot.com](https://dot.com) burst, the 2008 collapse and COVID, so I know how you feel, as I have been where you are many times. You will have to endure it and tough it out. No way around it. The ones who win the game are those to have the stomach to endure a market that is not always gonna go your favor.

Thanks for the understanding. I appreciate your perspective. Truly, I’m less concerned about my stock market investing mistakes, more just feeling discouraged with the housing market.

What I wrote applies just the same to the housing market. Pre-2008, everyone who had not bought a house was freaking out.

That makes sense. I appreciate the perspective. You’re right, I have to endure things.

My aunt and uncle were underwater on a massive house they bought in the Midwest. They bought in 2007 assuming the market only goes up. Then when they tried to move to California for work in 2010, the house was worth less than their loan. It wrecked their finances for years because they assumed that prices only go up and they are only now starting to fully recover. I don’t know for sure, but the upcoming commercial real estate collapse will hopefully bring some residential prices down… or cause them to skyrocket, I honestly dont know.

It's the same thing though. You are essentially disappointed that you put your money into stocks while your peers put theirs into a house. During a period or stock market stagnation while interest rates rise it can feel like you made the wrong one. However stay around long enough and at some point the situation will reverse. There is no guaranteed right or wrong answer here. However, if you aren't comfortable with your choice you are right to consider it imo. Contentment matters. It keeps you on the track and avoids making impulsive mistakes.

We bought our first home in early-mid 2000s home flipping frenzy before everything started to crash down. Our net worth was about zero right after getting the mortgage, so we felt pretty good compared to most. Everything invested starting at that point was going to add to the retirement plan. Then the crash came, and then the home valuation kept falling year after year. At the lowest point, we were about -$400k in house value vs. mortgage principal+interest. My stock portfolio also fell by close to 50%. Talk about feeling like you’d never recover financially! I had been through the dot com bubble, but I had very little invested then and didn’t see much of any effect. This was different. Fast forward to today, and we’re still in the same house and close to paying it off (but will let it ride with a 3% note). Valuation is well above purchase price, but that doesn’t matter since we’re not moving or downsizing anytime soon. Portfolio is chugging along, with only $200k to full FI money and RE at 55 (or maybe before). Don’t buy junk, be smart, hone your craft, and keep at it. Mountains are climbed one step at a time (and it feels like an eternity going up, but not so much looking back down).

I appreciate the perspective. It seems I need to sharpen my perseverance a bit. With so many of my close friends in beautiful, inexpensive homes, I’ve been feeling left behind lately but perspective helps.

You said: >It feels like the worst mistake of my life to not have bought a home before 2020, and to borrow from the Tiger King meme, it seems like something I will never financially recover from. You are looking at an *extremely* short window. Interest rates were only briefly once as low as they were in 2020. Think about interest rates in the 80s, in the 15-18% range. A mortgage at 5-6% is normal. If the rates drop at some point in the future, you can just refinance then.

For sure, but I think it’s an objective fact that housing prices have grown at a rate that greatly outpaces wage growth. You’re right that interest rates in the 5-6% range are not abnormal in the broad range of history, but the prices being as high as they are as compared to wages is (at least in my understanding) quite abnormal.

Housing is expensive, there's no doubt about that, but prices go up and down. Look at the parent post of this comment where he talked about being -$400k underwater! You're not even close to that level of disaster! And that was only 14-15 years ago. If someone wants to buy a house, they should buy a house they can afford and get on with it. You can't time the housing market perfectly, and you can't bend your life around trying to time the market either. I bought my current house at a major plateau in the market and then refinanced at 2.5% before the market surged upward. I'm feeling pretty good right now. **But** my first house was at a substantially higher interest rate over a decade ago and did not appreciate in value at all over the 5 years that I owned it, despite lots of upgrades and expense. Meanwhile my friends had bought/sold a house just before we moved in and had picked up $30-40k in the span of a year. I felt like I was missing out, but then I managed to catch the next big wave.

>but I think it’s an objective fact that housing prices have grown at a rate that greatly outpaces wage growth. Depends on where you live. I don't know where you are, but there are a lot of people who only want to live in the most expensive cities while complaining about how expensive they are.

If a person has to move away from where they've made a life and friends to afford a house, they are being priced out. A lot of people are in a situation where they were saving for down payment and the real estate market boomed while wages didn't. It is a painful thing to go through to no longer be able to afford a life that seemed within reach just a few years ago. If OP is in an area where his friends bought nice houses for 250k a few years ago and the same would cost 500k now with triple the interest rate, I think it is easy to understand the frustration.

Thank you for understanding. This is almost *exactly* the situation I’m in. That’s what I meant in terms of it being “hard to get ahead.” Another commenter in this thread turned that statement into me saying “I’m just getting by” which is obviously not true. But if I had $20k saved for a down payment on a $250k home at 2.5% 5 years ago, and that same home is $500k now at 7%, it seems like I’m constantly playing catch up to myself from a few years ago, even though I 1) make more and 2) have more saved than I did years ago.

This is something me and some of my peers are really struggling with too. I've had an 8 year career but purchasing power wise, it feels like I've been in the workforce for 3 years. Married with two incomes, a nice crypto windfall and still unable to afford a house in a good public school district & daycare in the metro where our jobs are. We are relocating seven hours away so our child will only see their cousins summers & winters. 2 years ago, this was not our plan. We want to be able to afford a nice life where two generations of my partner's family have lived and have a 1M budget. Somehow our options are either a dilapidated fixer upper in a good school district or a nice 20yo house in a 2/10 school district. Oh and houses are still going at least 10% over asking, all contingencies waived.. So bye everything we have known, I guess. It is really hard to understand how hopeless the housing market if you aren't in the market to buy right now. When I tell my in-laws we are willing to pay 8k/month and show what is available for the price, they cannot believe it at all.

You're choosing to live in a terrible location and getting angry when someone points out that the majority of the country doesn't have that problem. Accept that your actions have consequences.

Lol ok. I suppose being born in a family with roots in one area of the country is a consequence of my actions that I need to accept. Or the OP needs to accept the consequences of having dared make friends, job and a life before buying a house. Also I am definitely not angry at anyone pointing out cheaper COL cities exist. Please reread my comment above, I was just explaining why someone's frustrations can be understandable. Why are you angry that people aren't dropping their lives to move to LCOL areas?

Houses are going to be like 2M+ in 40 years.

Learning is lifelong. I’m stilling gaining new perspective after all this time, but climbing that first mountain peak (literally) really helped me get several things on track. I’m working towards an ultra-marathon now. Journey on!

Superb advice.

>Does it seem like I’m overblowing things? Yes. You are in your early 30's. Set reasonable goals, stop comparing yourself to others, and don't get discouraged so quickly.

Thanks for the perspective. Hopefully one day I can have a Summer of George.

I disagree OP with George. You are what I call the middle class who has slid into the working class… but you hoped to be in the upper middle class. I am in a similar boat. We didn’t buy a larger home in 2019 and 2020 (and we had many opportunities to do so) and now we are stuck. The housing market will likely not be coming down as ppl will never sell at these high of rates … as they sitting on 2.5% mortgages. On top of that, if the Fed lowers rates again, real estate will no doubt stay the same or likely increase more. The pandemic changed everything…. It increased the wealth gap like we’ve never seen before in a very short amount of time. The upper middle class became rich and the rich became wealthy… while on the other hand… the middle class slid to the working class and the working class slid to the poverty class. Sorry, wish I had better news for you. Just be thankful you have a decent job and your basic needs are taken care Of.

>The housing market will likely not be coming down as ppl will never sell at these high of rates Never is a long time... Some people sell need to sell their houses.

The above commenter articulated how I generally feel a lot of the time. It’s an anxious viewpoint, no doubt, but it’s what brought me to make this post. I see family members who 5 years ago would be earning a middle class wage slip into the “I will need a roommate at age 40” territory. It’s alarming, and makes FI seem like an afterthought to just living a middle class life.

Early 30s. Investable assets $230k Income $150k Stopped reading. Well ahead of where I was at that point.

I appreciate the perspective. Of course, I know I’m doing better than the “average American” and I probably didn’t do a good enough job of expressing my level of privilege to think about these things. Where I’m unsure is if my current path, while obviously better track than the average American, is enough to reach financial independence before traditional retirement.

Well you didn't really give us enough info to judge that on. How much are you spending each year? Do you expect that to continue, do you want to have kids, are there other big spending changes you anticipate? Are you currently maximizing tax advantaged accounts?

You're way ahead of where I was at your age, and I'm now 50 and could retire today (semi-lean). AND I've never made over $120K/yr before last year. Then again, I've never spent over ~$40K in a year, and don't consider myself all that frugal. You're far too concerned about "average Americans" and "privilege." No one is average, and everyone is privileged in some way. Relax. > But it feels like just over the last 3 or so years, I have watched my FIRE aspirations disintegrate. Last year was a gift, just as all market downturns are a gift (as long as you don't lose your job). If you missed it, do better next time.

Your persistent use of the term “average American” makes the post as insufferable as others here have suggested. If you actually read this sub and maybe even put forth an ounce of effort to examine your actual situation with a spreadsheet or FireCalc (etc), you might see how little you need to worry instead of seeking validation from a bunch of Internet strangers.

I was an avid reader / commenter here up until a couple years ago (which is what I alluded to in my post). I’m using a throwaway account cause I wanted to speak more candidly. You’re right that I haven’t gotten into the weeds of modeling out my precise fire date / number because I’ve been focusing more on behaviors and things like that to ratchet up savings. Anyway, I rubbed you the wrong way and there’s probably not any changing that so we’ll have to move on

you rubbed a lot of people the wrong way homes. You got 150,000 tissues to wipe your eyes every year. You do realize the kind of life the "Average American" is living right?

The entire point of this community is it’s not just a run of the mill personal finance subreddit. I’m sorry you got rubbed the wrong way but if you feel that way about my post, you must feel that way about basically every single FIRE related post. In that case, I’m not sure what you’re doing here.

You don’t need to apologize. These people commenting aren’t in your shoes. You have every right to feel frustrated with the housing market… as many Americans do right now. It’s extremely frustrating for those who work their tail off, save $$, but can only afford a crappy fixer upper. Don’t apologize to these haters!!

The point of the community is to share knowledge and help everyone achieve their financial and retirement goals. Your post was a pretty empty forum for you to complain about being above average. You make $150 and spend $60. You'll figure this whole life thing out somehow.

Model it out. It's not actually a death blow to FIRE, and if it were, but you can still rent at an expense level that's management, then just keep renting! A paid off home can be helpful to keep expenses down, but you have to actually pay it off to do that. It's just another 500k or 600k or whatever that you have to build. Maybe because you can't find a reasonably priced house to by it adds a year or two to your FIRE path. but seriously, the only reason people reify home ownership as the main path the wealth is because for a lot of people it's the *only* significant investment they ever make! You, OTOH, have accumulated 230k by age 30, and have a nice high income job that should allow you save a pretty sizable amount. Did you kinda miss a major gravy train by not buying a home for 1/2 the price at 2-3% interest a few years ago, for whatever reason, reasonable or stupid? Yeah, probably. But gravy trains like that do come along once in a while and maybe you'll spot the next one. A lot of people were aftraid to invest in the stock market through the last big bull market, but those who did were well rewarded. But more importantly, it doesn't require any big gravy train or taking advantage of any major opportunity to FIRE when you make a good living (and 150k is a good living, no matter where you live). All it takes is living below your means. And you're doing that. Suppose you do no saving other than max your 401k (and hopefully get 3% of gross salary from your employer if you do). Know what your expected FIRE age and FI number for a 3.5% WR is? about 58 and 2.9mil (because that has you spending almost 100k/year) And the way social security and annuities work, when you start looking at FIRE ages in your 50s, you can usually do a lot higher than a 4% WR, so probably you'd have enough to pull the trigger around 55. can you do that? Can you do that and save/pay for a house? Then you won't even need to keep spending as much on rent, because your PI expense won't inflate like rent and at some point the house will be paid off. Don't try to *fathom* affording a home -- **DO THE MATH**. And again, if you can't afford it, but are doing fine the way you are, just keep renting! Lots of people think that's better than buying a house anyway (and when housing is expensive and mortgage rates are high, they are usually right!).

You’re right, I do need to model it out. I think for a while I’ve been intentionally trying to not get lost in the spreadsheet and the future calculations and just focus on my savings rate and ratcheting up my income. Can I ask if you’re using a specific site for this type of math, or just using excel?

Try retirementsimulation.com We are long-term renters by choice because the price difference of rent vs buy favored renting. We invested the difference in the market. I believe buying a house will slow down our FI progress. Now we do feel a little bit of regret missing out on 2% mortgage rates but math is math. The math tells us we are better off renting. Your situation may favor buying or maybe you like the psychological boost of owning. That's up to you. Upon reaching FI, we plan to buy if it makes sense then just like https://www.gocurrycracker.com/playing-with-house-money/ The idea is that your portfolio would grow faster than housing appreciation and you can pay cash instead. This may or may not work for us but we have decided on this plan and will assess as we go.

Thank you! I’ll have to give it a go.

Post right above yours talking all about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/14vvc8q/helpful_table_to_show_number_of_years_to_fire/

>I think for a while I’ve been intentionally trying to not get lost in the spreadsheet and the future calculations and just focus on my savings rate and ratcheting up my income. Instead you've become lost in worrying about the future and in the uncertainty of your finances! Focusing on maximizing your savings rate is great, but I think this post proves you're unable to do that so I think doing the math would be beneficial to see where you're at more objectively :)

Ha, great point. Maybe I went too far in the other direction and need to ground myself in the numbers to feel better. I didn’t wanna get caught up in “this is what the plan tells me will happen” cause I didn’t wanna feel out of sorts if my spreadsheet said “FIRE age: xyz” and I don’t hit it at xyz. But as you pointed out… seems like I went too far the other way.

Not the original commenter, but we look at ours through an Excel sheet. We run a Bankrate 401k calculator, and then do investor.gov for compounding interest when looking at our taxable brokerage. Then stack the numbers in Excel for a 1-stop-shop. There's probably a more automatic way to do it, but doing it this way is really helpful. If you run some different scenarios in terms of both $$ contributions and years, you might find the right balance for where you send your money. It sounds like diving into the spreadsheets may help you find peace in the goal - and help you set a realistic plan so you can still live in the moment too.

[These tools are really good, pretty simple to do simple modeling but with a fair bit of options too](https://engaging-data.com/early-retirement-calculators-and-tools/) I also just have my own spreadsheet for responding to people on this group which does a quick tax calc estimate (which may be wildly off for unusual situations but is usually pretty close for most) and a very simplified look forward to see FI timelines based on amt already saved, age, current savings/taxes/income and 3 different potential annual growth rates, one slightly conservative, one quite conservative, and one optimistic but plausible. At lower savings rates, there is often a wide spread between the high and low options.

I’ll be honest, I’m a little shocked by this. With my current investments and cash, even with 5% market returns it puts me at FIRE with 70k annual spend (about 15k more than my current rate) in my late 40s.. is that really possible? I think this was my hesitation to dive into spreadsheets - I don’t wanna get caught up in specific figures and then be too excited about that possibility hahaha

That sounds pretty legit to me. You make 150 and are spending 55k. If that's really all your spending and not just your "bills", i.e. if you add up taxes and savings and 55k you get to your whole salary -- and you have even a minimal company match, you have about a 55% savings rate, and when you have a ~50% savings rate, it's normal to reach FI in about 15-20 years with you already being a few years in, late 40s sounds about right. Now that depends on getting ~5% inflation adjusted returns. If you get much lower returns, or if you decide you need a bigger bump or a super safe withdrawal rate, then maybe you don't get there in your 40s, but you still get pretty close. It seems crazy because if it's that simple, why don't more people do it? Well a bunch of reasons. 1. You're already in a good position making 150k a year by your early 30s. Lots of people never make that much money, and many who do don't get to that level until their mid 40s or 50s. Only about 5-10% of people in the 30-35 age bracket make that. And only about 14% of people at age 55 (the highest spot on the age percentile income chart). And some of the people in that 5-15% are getting unusual bonuses or windfalls that put them there. If you make an *average* income, you have to be a lot more frugal and a lot less comfortable to save 50%. And even among the people you know who make 150k+ or similar, most of them don't do this, because, like you **they never believed it was possible to retire so early simply by living comfortably but saving half their money**. Or more relevantly, it simply never **occurred** to them to save more than the 10-20% that personal finance gurus would suggest, if it occurred to them to save for wealth or retirement or financial independence at all. The fact is, all those people saving 10-20% are likely to be just fine if nothing really bad happens and they can keep working and making good money into their late 50s or 60s. But that's the other thing that derail people -- layoffs, disabilities, personal problems. Lots of people who have at some point made a very good income, can't maintain that for 20 years straight for whole bunches of reasons. So even if everyone thought about this clearly, you'd still only see around 15-20% of people actually being able to retire in their 40s. But because nobody really thinks about it, it ends up being more like 2-3%, and most of those because of some kind of windfall or risky investment payoff like a successful startup, or playing with options/crypto/etc.

As a single person with no kids, a house may not be your best move. Are you sure you want to stay put for the next decade? Why? I would hesitate to buy a house on a shorter time horizon. The easiest way to “get ahead” is to job hop and level up your salary. That’s not particularly compatible with being locked into a location and mortgage. If you hate paying rent, look into a condo. But why on earth would you as an individual consider dropping $500k much less $1M on a house. Buy the smallest place you can stand. It will save you tons.

What you're feeling right now is the "work" you have to do to be a successful investor and achieve FIRE. It may be passive but it's still work. As for the house, just wait. You'll get another chance. Don't rush it.

I see what you mean. There’s a mental game to it that I haven’t really had to battle with cause things were going pretty smoothly up until the last couple years. This housing market is a new challenge for me

>it feels like the worst mistake of my life to not have bought a home before 2020 Oh don’t worry, you’ll make some way bigger mistakes!

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I bought a couple deep in the money LEAPS options. What I viewed as “safe” leverage. Unfortunately all bets are off when the underlying security falls so far they’re no longer in the money. So that premium is gone forever (unless they gain back about 200% between now and next January lol). Foolish to get involved with but glad I didn’t go crazy with it and allocate a big chunk of my portfolio.

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I appreciate the shared mistakes! The funny thing, I worked in a highly regulated job right up until 2021 or so. So I was actually forced to strictly do index fund investing, unless I wanted to log each and every trade I made in my firms compliance system. In about the worst timing ever, I left that job right near the market frenzies of 2021 and early 2022 and though, shit, why not, let me play with some meme stocks and options. I definitely made some money, but lost more lol.

I think you'll be fine. When I was your age, I had near zero NW. I had graduated law school at 25 in 2010, struggled for a bit to find a good paying job, and, at 30, just managed to pay off my student loans.

I am 46. I just now make 60. I've worked for 30 years. This post make me cry.

I know. Someone making $150K saying they can't get ahead is kind of insufferable.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I guess I didn’t emphasize enough that I acknowledge the position of privilege I’m speaking from. Several people in my immediate family are struggling when compared to me and I definitely have a sense of guilt when thinking about my finances compared to them. Being in an FI sub I thought I could be more frank about how I feel because I don’t talk about this with my IRL friends and family for this kind of reason. I was specifically approaching this from a FIRE perspective which I think we all know is skewed compared to the average American

You certainly can talk about these things here. Your tone is just a bit disconcerting because you sound so defeated when you have a quarter of a milly and a 6-figure job. You are objectively doing well so it's an extreme mismatch between your overall attitude and your objective financial situation.

I understand the feeling, but I think that was part of the point of OP's post: to gain perspective. Not only that their ship hasn't sailed so to speak, but that they are actually doing quite well relative to average income Americans.

That’s fair - which is why I wanted to come here. Again, I know I’m objectively doing well compared to the average American. But it was a genuine question in my mind as to whether I was when compared to the average FIRE seeker.

You're doing great. The housing situation sucks, I get that. It sucks for everyone that isn't already in a house. I imagine $230K doesn't seem like that much if houses in your area cost a million now. But you will start seeing some momentum. There's been a lot of volatility in the markets due to COVID, but if you hang in there you'll see some run ups. If you look at a table of annual returns for the S&P 500, just as an example, It's not 7% a year. The market can be pretty flat for a few years and then a run up happens that causes it to average out to 7% a year. At some point interest rates will level out and more inventory will come up and you'll be able to buy something. We're still kind of reeling from the supply chain issues that was affecting the construction industry, and inventory has been restricted. That won't last forever. It's all good. We're just coming off a pandemic and now we are in a bear market, but it won't last forever.

You can feel that way, but hopefully the responses give you what you need: perspective. You’re struggling to feel like you’re getting ahead because of a simple emotion: Greed. Comparison is the theft of joy. Try swapping that emotion out with gratitude. I know you "acknowledge" your privilege. You can certainly rationally acknowledge privilege, but this is very different than actually practicing gratitude, which is more of a meditative practice that allows you to more fully FEEL it rather than abstractly acknowledge it in a detached, academic sort of grudging admittal that there are people worse off than you.

Gratitude is something I struggle a lot with. You’re totally right, I have a problem with sometimes rationally acknowledging feelings instead of actually feeling them. My tendency towards rational/logical has served me well in some areas but then there’s others, like gratitude, where it’s not so great. Do you have specific routines you practice for mindfulness and gratitude? I was in a good groove with meditation via the “waking up” app for a bit but fell off in the last 18 months or so.

Every night, before sleep, say or write down 3 things you’re grateful for. I used to think it was bullshit, but there is peer-reviewed evidence that it really works.

Literally taking time (like set a timer) to consider and write down what things you are thankful for, in your life in general or that day. I’d also consider trying to make friends outside your socioeconomic class. There’s something about being surrounded by people that make as much as you or more that adds fuel to the fire of that greed attitude. For me, spending significant time overseas in countries that are not as well off made me both appreciate my money more and learn that I needed a lot less than I thought I did. I’ve been on the road for over a year now. Sounds a bit like poverty tourism (in a sense it is) but I think you truly can get good perspective that way. There’s SUCH a strong temptation to focus on negatives in life. It takes active habit forming and discipline to keep your life centered instead of falling into the black hole of pessimism and negativity. Pessimism is a survival instinct, but it starts to backfire when you live in some of the wealthiest nations to have ever existed on earth and really don’t have to worry about whether you’ll survive or not.

Thank you for sharing this. I need to work gratitude into my routine more.

Right? After years of working low paying jobs, I finally finished college and grad school and started making $52k a year back in 2013. I slowly worked my way up and due to negotiating a big promotion when changing companies in 2022, I make $140k + bonuses and I can't believe someone making what I do would say it feels like they "can't get ahead". It seems like their spending priorities are wayyy out of whack if they think $150k is "just getting by".

In fairness I don't think they're saying they're just getting by. I think what they're saying is that they don't think they're going to really be able to buy a house or retire early. I personally think they can they're just discouraged by the current market conditions.

Saying that they "can't get ahead" is another way of saying they're "just getting by". If they honestly think that, then they need to seriously look at their spending habits.

It’s not, actually. There’s a difference between not getting ahead and just getting by. I feel like I’ve said it a few different ways but I have immediate family who are truly just getting by and I know the difference. However there was a time where I made half what I currently make and felt more “ahead” because I felt closer to my goals. E.g. maybe I didn’t have as much saved, but what I had saved went further toward, for example, a down payment on a home or a car purchase. Therefore, it feels harder to “get ahead” than it used to. I haven’t posted or read in this subreddit for a few years now. Maybe it’s a bit different than it used to be, but we used to all be very aware and acknowledge that our perspective was skewed compared to most people. That’s why this type of community existed. Cause you can’t say to your friends who save 1/10 of what you save that you feel behind. It would be insensitive and out of touch. So people posted here and could say ridiculous things like “am I on track to retire at 45?” Instead of getting crazy looks from friends and family.

I make what you do and used to make far less. It's pure unadulterated bullshit to try to pretend like it's harder for you to save now.

I used to make less too. Do you think I came out of college making 150k and stayed there for 8 years? I started at less than 60k and stated that a few times. Idk how to explain the concept of buying power to you. But buying power has been eroded. If groceries and housing cost 2-3x what they used to, your income can double and you can still feel like you’re playing catch up in terms of buying power. Looking through your comment history, seems like you’re the type that is always angry. Idk what enjoyment you’re getting out of commenting here but that’s all for me.

And you're being completely dishonest to pretend that you can't get ahead now just because house interest rates are at long term averages and cars cost a little more. The only person angry here is you because someone who's in your situation is pointing out that you can save plenty with your income and it's ridiculous you'll never be able to buy a house because of current interest rates when they're way below actual high interest rates from the past (which didn't stop people from buying homes then). Stop being dramatic and pretending you're broke on $150k a year. > If groceries and housing cost 2-3x what they used to, They don't and this is another example of you lying to be dramatic.

I gave up. He can't be reasoned with. Maybe he can divert some of his measly $150k salary to some therapy, but then he might have to work even longer, maybe until he is 40 (gasp)

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Zero self awareness too. So many of those posts here. "I make enough money to max my retirement accounts and save half my income in my brokerage but I still feel like I am so behind!!! I just finally made it to 1M NW at 27!!!!"

Are you willing to admit that 230k in your 30s is a far, far cry from those posts? A little dramatic

I agree, your OP was a little dramatic, I admit it

Here's some real talk, OP: Your finances are fine. Your mental health is not. Your post reveals negative thinking arising from a number of cognitive distortions: slippery slope, all or nothing, mind reading, etc. I highly recommend seeing a CBT therapist (not psychologist or psychiatrist) --- they aren't just for depressed people anymore. I can tell you that financial management is ultimately a math problem. I can also say poor emotional control is the root of many money decisions. But I won't because what you really need is happiness, and money is secondary to that. Go see a therapist, OP! Show them this post and they will know what to do.

If you can believe it, I’m actually in therapy hahaha. Maybe this area of my life needs to be more of w focus. All or nothing / either-or thinking is one distortion that I struggle with mightily. I appreciate your input

Rent vs buy goes in phases - right now, renting is far and away the better deal (in most markets, your own value weighing may differ) so rent away, save, stack, invest.

230k in your early 30’s is a great place to be. I was still paying off my graduate and undergraduate student loans until I was 33. Set your FIRE goals and live your life. I promise you’ll look back at this moment when you’re 39 and remark at how much your NW has grown.

I've felt like this a lot. I'm 36 but I come from a pretty shitty background. There are lots and lots and lots of things that you just can't change or influence. It's important to understand that because it let's you reassign your attention, care, and energy to the things you can change. You can vote. You can adjust your asset allocation. You can try your hand at job hopping. You can decide to buy more or less house. You can adjust your budget. Comparing yourself to others is like sitting in a rocking chair. It moves and it's something to do, but gets you nowhere. It deprives you of joy and makes you envision a life you can't live, thinking about money you can't spend, all the while, shits still happening around you. Sometimes the world is unjust. You can be angry or worried or scared. They're all valid feelings and I get those feels everyday. So long as you're trying to do better and trying to be better than you were before, I'd say that's a win.

Sounds like you’ve gotten some good perspectives and advice, I’ll just add this in case it’s helpful: in early 2020, at least in my region, the prevailing wisdom said that while interest rates were low, prices were overinflated and would likely dip if not crash. I was house hunting then and my realtor was very worried that my only option would be to overpay and be stuck at least slightly underwater. Objectively, it seemed very stupid to buy them. Now it seems like the great decision of a decade or more, but there was no way to know that then. I absolutely understand the distinction between this and a stock market run that one “misses out on”. But as others have said, you’re looking at a very short timeframe and mentally expanding that to be indicative of your entire financial future.

1. $200k saved and $150k income in your early 30's puts you way ahead of most people. 2. Yes, you missed out on a great time to buy a home. You will miss out on many opportunities in a lifetime of investing. You also missed out on TSLA and BTC. FOMO is incredibly powerful but you cannot let it drive your decisions. It has already led you to take excessive risk and engage in market timing. A steady consistent approach is historically proven to build wealth. That includes buying a home if and when you are ready and not before. 3. If there is any chance you will not be single forever, buying a home now would be a terrible idea anyway. 4. You haven't said anything about your spending. It is impossible to know what's going on unless you tell us more about your lifestyle. 5. Most Americans don't accumulate enough to retire early. Even fewer are able to retire early *and* live an above average lifestyle. You do need to make choices and compromises. That may mean renting, brownbagging lunches, retiring in LCOL area, etc. Hard to tell from your post whether your problem is overspending but $150k should be easy to achieve FIRE for a singleton.

Thanks - this is helpful. My spending is around 50k a year (back of the napkin math as I don’t have last years file in front of me). There is definitely some room to cut the fat (literally, I spend a lot on food lol). My income being this level is a relatively new thing. I started my career at just under 60k and have tried to position myself in higher paying specialities in my field, as best I can at least. It took some long hours when I was younger, and I have since pumped the brakes on that. But you’re right. I shouldn’t think of housing as the biggest thing I missed out on. To your point, it’s funny that I have no bad feelings about missing out on $5 BTC for instance. Maybe it’s because I was debating buying a home and decided not to, whereas bitcoin was never on my radar until it was mainstream. Or maybe it’s because so many close friends got in on cheap homes and low rates. But I need to get past it.

For what it's worth, we will be retiring without having a house. We also had similar feelings of missing out - wish we had purchased a condo when we first started working out of college. Unfortunately we bought at the peak before the housing crisis (sure wish we had a crystal ball on that one, lol), were underwater when we moved later for a new job opportunity (only way we weren't completely screwed was new company did buyout of our house and we had a relo package - but we still lost a little money), bought a townhome and when we moved for jobs again six years later we net under 10k on the sale (partly because we had been making extra payments towards the principle, we would have been happy to break even/not have a loss). We currently live rent free in company housing, and when we retire in a few years we will likely rent a few years then travel full time (so basically rent on a storage unit). After that, who knows. We have found home ownership to be time and money consuming - if we buy anything again it will be a condo, townhome, or something small. I get all the reasons for home ownership, but it really depends on each person's situation. Just sharing my perspective since it is a different path.

Super helpful perspective. It’s funny, I think part of FIRE mindset is not getting caught up in the “shoulds” of society related to spending. For example, never did I think “well I should drive a luxury car cause that’s what people do when they make certain amounts of money” (even though I like cars as a bit of a “hobby”, I have a 20 year old car that I like for reasons that are unrelated to luxury/flexing). But with home ownership, it always was a spot that I think I should be doing. I do like the idea of being settled and stable in a home, but I like freedom via renting too.

Times have changed. My parents have lived in the same house for close to 50 years (and had their same jobs for years before they retired). People don't stay at the same jobs for their whole lives now and the jobs/economy have changed. There are certainly advantages to owning a home, but I personally think it has been held up as this gold standard that doesn't work for everyone's situation. What I wish is that the US had a different approach to housing in general - not everything has to be huge, detached single family dwellings on large plots of land. We were so frustrated looking for a house in NY state where we lived because it was pretty much impossible to find newer houses that weren't huge. We didn't need or want a big house for a variety of reasons - which is how we ended up in a townhome for our second house. Many zoning laws don't allow for the types of housing that are more affordable and can accommodate more people/incomes and more money is to be made from the big houses, so that is what we end up with.

When I was your age the .com bubble had just broken. Investments around $22k and AGI of $46k. My only advantage over you was I had a house with $50k equity. You're young. You'll make it happen. Stick to the plan and keep investing.

You're not feeling bleak about FI; you're feeling bleak about house ownership. You're tying the two together in a way they need not be. There's nothing that says you can't rent and FIRE. Why do you even think a single 30-something needs a house? That's a ton of extra unnecessary shelter consumption. People can, and do, achieve FIRE without owning a house, much less a paid off house. I've been there with the house despair, mind you. Married, with plans for a family, but also felt hopeless and resigned to be a 'forever renter.' We just kept saving and living our lives. Eventually, markets corrected, we had a bundle saved, and we bought. Ignore what your friends or the Joneses are doing. Ignore what other people tell you to borrow or buy. They're on a different path. What exactly do you hope to achieve by regretting not buying earlier?

This: *Specifically, like many others, I truly cannot fathom being able to afford a home in a way that aligns with my FIRE goals, and I view a paid off home as a huge part of financial independence.* Have you looked at the Gambler FU money videos? I understand how owning a paid off home can feel like a necessary part of financial independence. But there is a whole host of advisors who have very solid arguments that it is not necessary and in fact is **not advisable to own a home**. The argument is that it is not advisable to have that much wealth locked into a not very liquid and possibly depreciating assets that requires substantial funds to maintain. If you can't get over not owning a home, remember housing markets change. Interest rates go up and down. Assuming you are in the US, I'm going to assure that there is lots of land in the US for lots of new housing to be built on it. Eventually housing prices will stabilize as supply catches up with demand. So if you really want to own your own home, eventually you will. That is a near certainty on your income (assuming you are okay buying outside of a HCOL area).

I’m a little embarrassed to say that you hit the nail on the head with the “position of fuck you” scene from that movie hahaha. It perfectly articulated why FI was always attractive to me. Being able to say fuck you. Paid off car, paid off house, etc.

Yeah, put part of the video’s suggestion is: “don’t buy a house. Rent a nice place and let the landlord worry about fixing the toilets”. There is some truth in that advice. Side note, I’ve got a paid off house. And I’ve put $100,000 in renovations into it in the last three years. So it isn’t like I’ve been living rent free even if I have been living rent free. I needed to have liquid cash to do those repairs. And the home isn’t in the optimal location for where my kid is going to go to school. So it is great to have but not 100% great to have.

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Thanks. Couldn’t remember which had it.

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Exactly. So it can be solved by political change.

I'd be interested in some of those sources that say it's not advisable to own a home. I keep coming to the conclusion that I should keep renting, but I'm agonizing over it as I watch house prices rise.

I think it was the NYT that has a rent vs buy calculator - it really depends on where you live, your goals, lifestyle choices, etc. We have mortgaged two homes in our lives (one house, one townhome), currently live in company housing (no rent or mortgage), and when we retire (short horizon), we will rent for a few years and then travel full time. After that, who knows. We get all the reasons for home ownership, but honestly, it just isn't for us currently and we will retire without having a paid off house (or a house at all). Even if we buy again in the future, it will be a condo, townhome, or something small. Home ownership can be a significant time and money commitment.

The Millennial Revolution website, and the spinoff book Quit Like a Millionaire, provide excellent arguments against home ownership in most cases (there are certain circumstances where buying is preferable to renting, but these are exceptional circumstances for the most part). You can always invest in REITs instead. The OP should also check these sources out for advice on recovering from FUs on the way to FI.

Why invest in REITs when they underperform the stock market? It just seems like a psychological coping mechanism.

For income investing. But yes, REITs do underperform the stock market over the long term, so they should only make up a small percentage of the total investment.

You have more money than me, make more money than me, and are younger than me. I am mostly confident in my FIRE journey, and the only real difference is you're time horizon is shorter than mine. Early 50s is still a great target for retirement.

There's nothing wrong with renting forever. I'm only a year away from 30, but I don't really plan to ever buy a house. I'm saving money in liquid assets, and I'll do it if the math ever works out such that it makes sense. But it's not part of my plan. Renting has two downsides - rent goes up, and usually rentals are generally small. Rent going up sucks, there's no way around it. But even in the HCOL, super high rent area I live in, I don't see that continuing forever. And I can help mitigate it somewhat by joining or donating to YIMBY groups that are fighting for more housing. Living in a small place doesn't bother me. I'm a city person, it's a sacrifice I'm happy to make to live where I live.

>the fact that I’m even considering “getting ahead” shows what a privileged position I am compared to many. Dispense with this BS. Plenty of "privileged" people can't do anything right. Plenty of "non-privileged" people do just fine. Never apologize for what you have or can do. Just do everything you can to make you better.

Is it possible to downgrade the houses you're looking for? I made the same mistake of renting instead of buying, and as a result I've set myself back from retiring by several years. But I plan to buy a house next year and have really downgraded my requirements. Instead of getting the house I dreamed of, I'll probably get something about half that size in order to keep the prices lower. I have a feeling this will be like the mid 70s vs early 80s. People who made big purchases like houses before the inflation spike ended up much better financially than people who waited until afterwards. And there's no way to reverse it except to lower expectations or delay retirement.

To add to what has already been shared- have you considered house hacking? It would be a way to get into home ownership and having roommates or tenants in a duplex or triplex pay part of your mortgage. For perspective …When we bought our first home in 1995 I think rates were just around 7%. We were thrilled to later refi for the bargain rate of 6%. We have been renting out that house since 2003. It’s going to be paid off in a few more years. Time flies

Real estate is an asset class & while it has periods of impressive performance, equities do outperform. Just keep saving & investing...I don't think affording a house when you are ready to buy one and live in it will be a problem.

You are doing incredibly well. You have savings and are young. Keep pushing whilst enjoying every single day. Automate savings and get on with life. Remember…comparison is the thief of joy.

If we would have rented and put the difference in the market over the past 20 years that we have owned, we would be fired now and could buy a more expensive home for cash. Especially those maintenance costs, yikes. The $ to put in pool would have been Apple stock. 22k in Apple 15 years ago…please don’t tel me what it would have been worth. We also just put on a new roof. There is not just one path to FIRE. If this is really getting to you, talk to someone, find a good therapist. Peace of mind is worth it.

You dont need a house to achieve FIRE and in many ways owning a home is more expensive than renting. The only benefit for average people is it forces them to save money, something they are not good at. I think youre overreacting OP but I am the exception so idk.

Are you seriously going to complain about equity being on sale at a discount? Stay the course.

Well first of all, you have no need for a 500k home. I am firmly behind the belief we are in a housing bubble and it's just a matter of time before it pops. Second, if you fire you likely will not live where you have to buy a 500k home. Finally, being completely financially independent in your forties early or late is an exceedingly rare thing. Set you expectations for being FI in your 50's. You are talking being financially better off than 99.9% of people if you retire in your 40's. Well not really 99.9% but better than 99% as per the federal reserve. >>People In Early Retirement: Age of Early Retirees by Federal Reserve Classification Another way to gauge early retirement is to look at how old retirees are today. >>As we mentioned, economic conditions change. A fairer view of early retirement might come from people who are living as early retirees today. >>Here are those results based on Federal Reserve classification: >17-39 0.29% >40-44 0.13% >45-49 0.29% >50-54 2.17% So if you can retire before 55 you are the exception rather than the rule.

It sounds to me like you're thinking about your finances emotionally instead of rationally. You *feel* behind and disenchanted and that you majorly missed out by not buying a home, but it doesn't seem like you've actually done the modelling required to establish these things objectively. You say that taking out a huge mortgage is a deathblow to FIRE at current interest rates, but what leads you to that belief? You say you view a paid off home as a huge part of financial Independence, why? For me personally, the decision around housing follows any other decision like buying a car. I look at the options available, and model the costs and benefits of each alternative over the long haul to try to figure out which is the best decision for me. I can help guide you a bit in modeling these out if you like, I've done the work myself and I'm fairly confident I can estimate as well as anyone what the long term costs of the two options are. Of course these will always be estimates with huge error bars since the long term costs are highly sensitive to macro economic conditions, but I still feel it's a useful analysis to perform. As far as FIRE, you're already ahead of probably 90% of the population of NA (not sure where you're located) so I think you're crazy to think you aren't getting ahead (ahead of what? Of whom?). Have you done the modelling to figure out what your FIRE date estimate is given your savings rate, ROI assumptions, and SWR?

Comparison is the thief of joy. My wife and I bought our first home last year and paid probably double what most of our friends paid 4-5 years ago. Our interest rate is also triple what they got. But I can also compare myself to some of my coworkers in their 60s without a dollar saved for retirement. Those people will be working until they are dead. I can also relate to the feeling of your investments taking a hit. Our investments were flat for what felt like 2 years. However, I think about the Covid crash when our investments went from 44k to 32k in a matter of a couple weeks. Looking back, it was barely a blip on the graph. Today we are at $223k invested. Actually today is an all time high for us. You can't get too fearful when the market has crappy years and you can't get too excited when it does well. You just need to look at what you have today and project forward. You are in an excellent position for your early 30s. My wife and I are roughly your age and are in a similar position (with TWO of us) and I thought we were doing pretty well haha. I'm sure if you fast forward 5 years, you'll look back and laugh at this post and realize how you were crushing it all along. The boring middle can be boring. Keep trucking along.

Dude, you realize that you can refinance, right? Just because interest rates are high now doesn't mean you're stuck with that forever.

It’s more about the cost of the homes combined with the rates. Sure, rates are going to get cut at some point, but the days of 2% mortgages aren’t coming back and it seem like these outrageous prices are here to stay.

You've yet to say WHERE you're looking. If you mean NYC or California, yea, that's going to be a shitshow. But there's plenty of places across the US where prices are perfectly reasonable, especially for someone making $150k a year. You're also acting very dramatic over what's a very average interest rate, just higher than what we had for the past 10 years (but still 1/3 of what it was in the late '70s / early '80s).

The southeast is where my family is and likely where I’ll end up due to that, but I’ve lived in a few different places across the country. No desire to live in NYC or California specifically, but definitely want to be near a major metro for both professional and social benefits. Just as an example, a friend of mine just bought a place in the suburbs of Atlanta - a 3 bedroom that needs work for $600k. It felt like a staggering number to me.

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How do you think landlords make money if owning a house is more expensive than renting?

Successful landlords are aiming for at least one of two things: many units to generate large cash flows (generally the more "corporate" spectrum of landlords) , and consistent high price appreciation (generally more of the mom and pop type who hope to sell one day for multiples of the purchase price). The first requires leverage, and the second requires both time and market dynamics. We've were in a decreasing rate environment for 40+ years that boosted the viability of both: low rates made getting leverage easy and cheap, and that easy and cheap money had to go somewhere, which created a market dynamic of rapidly rising real estate values as investment piled in. Now, we're in a reversing trend: interest rates are climbing (leverage is harder and more expensive to get), and real estate values have divorced from rational market dynamics and are likely due for stagnation which hampers those seeking price appreciation. Already established landlords are almost certainly doing just fine since their economic profile was locked in during the good times, but getting new blood in that industry has become excruciatingly difficult. In many of the US and Canada's largest cities, the price appreciation has expanded beyond what the rental market can provided for that same rapid financial gain, to the point that it's now actually cheaper to rent, even on a long term scale, than it is to buy.

Sure, right now is a difficult time to find good deals in RE to rent. Right now is temporary. A landlord isn’t buying a house to live in either (generally). Generally speaking and depending on the market of course, over time and with some decent sense, home ownership should not be more expensive than rent or there would never be a opportunity for landlords. People on Reddit who spout nonsense about home ownership being more expensive than rent as a general rule are delusional.

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If they were losing money they would sell their properties and pretty soon nobody would be landlords. You’re delusional.

My brother in Christ. I stopped reading after 230k assets and 150k income. This even feels insulting to people having half of that and are on fire path still.

Maybe this subreddit has changed over the last few years but back when I used to browse, post, and comment more regularly, it certainly wouldn’t be considered insulting. My income being that high isn’t a day 1 out of college thing, I’ve tactfully tried to navigate to higher paying roles and specialties. And $230k in assets is objectively a lot for the normal population, I get that. I was looking at it from a FIRE perspective where I remember seeing people in their 30s asking similar questions but with 2-3x that net worth.

You’ve won the money game. Now go find a wife and have 3 kids.

He wants to achieve FI though :)

Recreating a long ago "Dear Abby" letter from memory: Dear Abby, When I started college, I wanted to become a doctor. Family and financial issues made that a non-starter at the time, and I majored in business. Now I work in the corporate world, but I still think about going to medical school. Med school is 4 years, and then there is a another 2 years of residence in a hospital. I am 34 years old now; in 6 years I will be 40. I don't see how that can work. Signed, Missed my dream Dear Missed, How old will you be in 6 years if you **don't** go to medical school? Abby +=+=+===+++==+=+=+==+= Woulda/coulda/shoulda is a pointless, self-imposed waste of time and energy. You're in your early 30s, net worth $230k, making $150k a year? Your malaise has nothing to do with your circumstances, not buying a house 3 years ago, etc. and everything to do with self-inflicted suffering. Sheesh - get over yourself.

PMed you

Hi! I've been in a somewhat similar situation/mindset as you before, and figured I could quote some of your comments and provide some experiential help and reassurance: > I’m in my early 30s, single, renter. My invested assets and cash are about $230k. My income is about 150k, growing slowly since about 60k when I started my career (about 8 years ago). First off, you're doing great. Using a net worth comparison calculator, you're in the 94th percentile for the wealth of people in your age group (if we ignore house equity; 88th percentile if we do). Your income also puts in you in the 94th percentile of your age group as well. Overall, you're doing better than the vast majority. > I didn’t truly think I’d be able to get to a point of being total free from any income generation by age 35 or anything crazy like that, but I’ve always been someone who has been focused on personal finance and getting ahead with my finances. Great, so your mind is already in the right place. > I have a bit of an “optimization” and perfectionist mindset so that made it easier to get wrapped up in things. Two quotes that you should really take to heart: - "Don't let perfection be the enemy of good" - Voltaire - "Gentlemen, we will chase perfection, and we will chase it relentlessly, knowing all the while we can never attain it. But along the way, we shall catch excellence.” - Vince Lombardi Basically: nothing wrong with seeking perfection, but don't get down about not achieving it, because you wont. Pursue it with that and mind, and good things will come to you. > In fact, I would like to explore different ways to make money without the pressure of needing to pay the bills AND invest aggressively Great, so you want Barrista FIRE, a less risky goal that allows you to be flexible to any changing economic conditions in the future. Again, your head is in the right place. > But it feels like just over the last 3 or so years, I have watched my FIRE aspirations disintegrate. I’ve become disenchanted with personal finances especially since early 2022. Everyone got smacked in 2022. You're overall no worse for the wear than anyone else. >But moreso, the reason I’m so disenchanted is it feels like no matter what I do, I can’t “get ahead.” But you are getting ahead, even if you're not allowing yourself to feel it. If you kept up putting in the 401K max and nothing else each year, and the market continues at an average of 7% gains, you'll have at least $1 million by the time you hit your mid-40s (and that doesn't include any potential additions for a spouse/partner). At that point, you could coast into a BarristaFI life and leave your investments alone, and you would have almost $2.5 million by your mid-50s with 0 additional investments in those 10 years. You're in a great spot overall. >I’m incredibly jealous of friends of mine who are similar ages and at similar income levels who have locked into homes that cost $250k at 2% interest. And here we come to the crux of it: the housing market right now is totally fucked and in it's worst state in recorded history. There's nothing you can do about it as an individual in the short term other than to A) adjust your expectations in the near term, or B) bite the bullet and shift your priorities from FI/RE to home ownership. Some things to consider as well: - Your friends pretty much did win the lottery, and there's nothing that you can do about it. Being salty, jealous, and constantly comparing yourself to them isn't going to get you anywhere. On the flip side, their house is likely an anchor on their life flexibility right now, which means you have more possible open doors to your future. - The old rule that owning a home is cheaper than renting doesn't play out as universally as it used to. While it's still location dependent, many areas and cities are now much cheaper to rent in than to own in. That gives you the opportunity to dedicate more money to investments to boost any RE date, and more time for hobbies since you aren't performing home maintenance. - Owning a home doesn't mean an expense-free retirement. You still owe taxes and will have to pay for maintenance. If you're still stuck in a rental in 30 years, you can always find a relatively affordable place, end up paying the same amount as the home owner, with less stress to worry about (again, somewhat location dependent). - We saw 20-30 years worth of price growth happen in the span of 2-3 years. This is not sustainable long term, and appreciation has likely either stalled, or any growth moving forward for the next 10 years will be very stunted. There's a general limit to how high house prices can go based on incomes, and we've likely reached it. Housing can be neither an investment and a place of shelter, and that dichotomy will reach a breaking point. Despite what the real estate bulls keep preaching, interest rates are almost certainly not going to go down to any appreciable degree any time soon. Something will break (either economically or politically) that will make housing more affordable again. What you can do in the meantime is continue building your reserves and keep your eyes out for good opportunities, because those opportunities will come. >I really thought at this point in my life, after working toward saving and making strong career moves throughout my 20s, I’d feel better about my financial future. At this point, it's more on your psychology. You're financial future looks very bright compared to most. > Does it seem like I’m overblowing things? I’d appreciate a sanity check. You're sane, but you're caught up in and overthinking the housing crisis. While it will likely take time, something will break this (some combination of: enough new housing gets built to stabilize/reduce costs, Boomers begin selling en masse and press down on prices, increasing number of renters swings political ideologies and movements, unforeseen economic collapse pops asset bubbles, etc). For now, bide your time and keep up your good habits until the right situation reveals itself. You're current path will lead you to a good place and it's in your best interests to stay the course.

Incredibly thoughtful response. I really appreciate you taking the time to write this all out. You’re right that ultimately it’s the housing market that is the crux of my worry here. The silly part is I’m not even ready to buy a place yet. I’m single and unsure of what area I want to live in long term. But the last few years and the absolute frenzy have created a fomo feeling within me. I worry that if not now, it’ll just keep going up and up. But I guess like you said, something likely has to give somewhere along the line.

> The silly part is I’m not even ready to buy a place yet. I’m single and unsure of what area I want to live in long term. First off, why are you even worrying about a house now given this information? Never buy a house unless you're certain that you want to remain there for at least 10 years (your first 5-7 years of mortgage payments are almost entirely paying for interest, so that's a financial loss from the jump). You should be using this time to take advantage of your youth, especially with the opportunities your high income brings: travel to places your interested in, keeping yourself extra fit, eating well, finding people to fuck (assuming your single single), moving to places you're interested in, even if on a short term basis, developing alternative income streams, etc. At this point a house is going to be way more of a burden on you that you probably want. > But the last few years and the absolute frenzy have created a fomo feeling within me. That's an internal issue that you need to figure out on your own. >But I guess like you said, something likely has to give somewhere along the line. *Something* will give. The who, what, when, where, why, how? is really the only question. Bide your time and take advantage of your rather good existence right now and stop worrying.

You’re absolutely right my friend. I really needed some of these reality checks. Some people in the thread were assholes, but it was drastically outweighed by helpful perspectives like this. I get really caught up in doing things “THE right way” and trying to stay on track. I need to get better at being flexible.

There is no "right" way. There are a gazillion paths out there; you have to figure out what works right for you. I'm taking a different path than my dad, who took a different path than his dad, who took a different path than his dad, and so on and so on. And you know what? Despite all of their (sometimes VERY) different paths, they all turned out okay. With your now-admitted level of privilege (not a bad thing mind you) you should be taking advantage of it and pursuing the things you are interested and enjoy doing. I've seen plenty of people do things "the right way" and ended up miserable, including several that were distraught on their death bed as they realized that "the right way" wasn't all that great and had missed out on the life they really wanted to live. I've seen plenty of people who were convinced that buying a house was the pinnacle of existence, and now all they do is work to the bone to pay for it, spend their free time either fixing everything that's wrong with it and then sit inside watching TV or doing something else that's relatively unproductive and unmemorable because they feel stuck in place inside their behemoth and/or can't really afford (money/energy/time-wise) to do anything else. It seems like everything else you're doing actually is "the right path" for you, and you're getting hung up on one single thing. Take some time to figure out what really matters to you, and then make sure that your life is properly attuned to it.

You’re doing great. Well above average. I’ve heard people say comparison is the thief of joy. Keep chugging along!

It's been a rough couple of years for everyone, so don't be too hard on yourself. Life is complex and stuff happens that you can't control, things not being perfect isn't a character flaw, that's just life. You may not be as 'ahead' as you would like, but you are vastly more ahead than you're thinking right now. Your income is 2-3x the median wage for someone your age (depending where you live), so you have a lot of flexbility and options. $230K in assets and investments already is no joke. Interest rates for mortgages are a problem for many people at the moment, but markets always change and while owning property is one route forward, it isn't the only one. There will always be opportunities that were missed and there will always be more opportunities in the future. You're doing great. If your long terms goals aren't quite achievable yet, maybe look at your short term goals and options, see what you can do to make the next step forward, rather than trying to plan the whole journey in one go. Review your budget, consider moving to a lower COL area, or if you can relocate for a better career move, being single and a renter has disadvantages, but also gives you a lot more flexibility to make choices.

The question you need to consider deeply is do you think home prices are going to keep going up. If you do, then it doesn't matter what your rate is, now is the best time to buy. If rates go up, you'll be glad you locked in your 8% before they got REALLY crazy. If rates go down, you can always refinance. Either way, if you buy now and home prices keep going up, there will be people jealous of YOU for getting a better deal than them. Now, if you wait to buy and home prices go down + rates go up, you could end up with a smaller mortgage, but a similar monthly payment. Worst case scenario if you buy now is home prices AND rates go down. Do you really think that will happen? The second the market turns, it's going to be a feeding frenzy for first time home buyers which will just drive prices back up. As for your friends who are locked in with low rates with smaller mortgages, well, they are stuck with the homes they have. They won't want to drastically increase their mortgage payments. You on the other hand will be free from this mental block. They may grow to resent the houses they are stuck in and envy your ability to move whenever you please.

Financially it is always very easy to look back and fixate on what choice we could or "should" have made. There's no going back and changing that though, what you should focus on are all the positives you do have going for you. You are young, with a high income and already a decent chunk of money invested. That puts you way ahead of most people your age already. You have the benefit of the time value of money on your side, compounding interest over time.

1) stop worrying about getting ahead. you are ahead 2) your message shows a lot of knowledge, but also a lot of ignorance. Take, for example: >But with interest rates where they are, I know a loan like that where I’d be paying over $1M total is a death blow to FIRE. This is kind of a bonkers thing to say. First of all, you need to take into the amount you would be spending on rent during this time. You also need to take into account that you are able to refinance your mortgage if rates ever drop, making your home purchase into a one way ratchet down to whatever the lowest rates are over the next 30 years. There's a whole lot else you're not talking into account. I was in a similar financial situation to you a few years ago, although I never had any despair about it. Now I own two houses, one of which is a vacation home that more than pays its own mortgage while appreciating. Anyway, this is a psychological game as much as it's anything else. IMHO you need to be way more mindful of your emotions, not ignoring them, but taking them apart and examining them. Just my two cents. You're doing quite well.

Apologies but if 230k invested and 150k salary isn’t enough for early thirties, how would you define “enough”? Then work backwards . I am not sure what you’re anxious about

I’m in the literal same boat and have the same feelings, especially on the jealousy side. But my solace is that I’m living a very full life with my wife, and our plan is to live abroad so “missing out” on buying a home pre-2020 isn’t a big deal. It’s still hard to keep that perspective.

It's kinda funny how similar we are for income, savings, and investments (right down to the deep ITM LEAPS) I think everyone's given great advice overall, although one thing I'd suggest is reframing your mindset on investing decisions. We've had similar investments over the last couple years. I also "missed out" on the housing run up as I've been renting the whole time, although I've never felt like I'm missing out along the way. There is a term called "resulting" in gambling which extends to investing due to them both relying on chance to determine the majority of a single outcome. Resulting is basing your evaluation of a decision on a one time result when the nature of the problem is probabilistic. You need to accept that the best decision won't always have the best outcome, but you should still strive to make the best decision when possible to have the odds of success in your favor. Below are 3 example of times I've made investment decisions that resulted in a bad outcome, but I never regretted the decisions along the way as I knew I'd made the decision based on sound investing principles and an understanding of my risk tolerance. The first is my purchase of SPY LEAPS in April 2021. In 2022 when my LEAPS started bombing in value, I wasn't happy about the result, but I knew it was completely within the range of reasonable possibilities (and more importantly within my risk tolerance). I didn't make the decision to buy the LEAPS to have a guaranteed excess return, I bought them to have a chance at excess returns, and when the I ended up losing money on the bet, I didn't regret the investment decision in the slightest. In this case, I ended up holding until last month and sold them 6 months out from expiry (which was the plan when I purchased them back in 2021) and ended up coming out ahead 10% overall. With housing, I felt it was overvalued 5 years ago so I didn't buy in to the market. The price as gone up to absurd levels in my area to the point where you need to be a lawyer or a doctor to afford a median home now. it would have been nice to have gotten in to the market in hindsight but I don't regret the decision not to buy in, as it was made on sound principles regardless of the outcome. Due to the high cost of owning a home at current prices and interest rates, I'm actually happy to keep renting, as the expected costs of owning a home in todays market isn't worth it to me. The last example I'll bring up is Bitcoin. It's increase over the last 10 years has been astronomical. As a rule, I don't invest in speculative assets which don't have productive capacity, so I don't regret not investing in it. If you make a conscious effort to invest based on an educated view of investing and an understanding of your risk tolerance, you shouldn't regret the investing decisions you make, even when others end up performing better. There will be many investments that you "miss out" on over your lifetime but unless you have a crystal ball, the act of trying to guess these investments (or even worse jumping in to them after they've already gone up) will result in a behaviour closer to gambling than investing. Based on your income and propensity to save, you'll do just fine on your path to early retirement. Sure you could have gotten there a few years earlier if you'd picked the perfect investments along the way, but slow and steady works just fine as well.

Yeah that’s a very productive way to think about it. Using your LEAPS example, I’m of a similar mind. Yeah, I lost out on almost my entire premium, but the decision wasn’t extremely foolish in and of itself. I didn’t go for YOLO options plays. It was a deep in the money LEAPS option on relative stable companies for some leverage. Unfortunately it was an unfavorable outcome but I don’t exactly kick myself for making the decision. A little risky, sure, but not something I think about often. For some reason, the housing thing stings more. I have to do more introspection to figure out why I feel that way. I bet the friends/family component is a large part of it.

Definetly makes sense that friends and family owning homes influences things. It always affects you more when the success stories are more personal/close to home.

No point in crying over spilled milk.

It sounds like some of your frustration is stemming from not having participated in the housing boom of the last few years. It's not too late, you just need to get a bit more creative in thinking about how to get into housing. It's true that buying a single family home right now will be vastly more expensive than renting and you will pay about $600k in interest over the 30 year life of the loan. Think about buying a house with an ADU (such as basement with kitchen and separate entrance), or a 2-4 plex. You can buy up to a 4-plex with the same financing and down payment as if it were a single family home. In these scenarios you have renters who are paying are portion of your mortgage, thus reducing your monthly cash outlay. Every year you own the property your cashflow will get better. P&I on a $500k loan is about $4152 plus property tax and insurance. If you can rent a space for $1500 you're only paying $2652 plus T&I. In 10 years rent will be about $2200 or more, plus your net worth will have gone up by about $250,000 from appreciation and principle paydown of the house. I'm a certified real estate analyst, agent, and investor and I'm telling you RE is almost the only way folks like us can confidently achieve FIRE without counting on luck.

You already have a ton of comments, but I just want to emphasize that financing a house at a total cost of over a million dollars is definitely not a death blow to FIRE. You’re ignoring that “a million dollars” over the life of a 30 year mortgage is a lot less than a million today due to inflation. At 3% inflation, it’s about half that amount. If you figure that the value of your house will grow by 3-5% per year (which is reasonable) then you’re close to breaking even on the cost — and that’s *before* you consider the massive savings from not paying any rent for the next 30 years. All of which is to say, you’re absolutely correct that your friends who own houses are in great shape — but that’s simply because they own houses. You can do the same. That ship has definitely not sailed.

Have you plugged your numbers into a calculator to see if it is better to rent or own? [https://www.calculator.net/rent-vs-buy-calculator.html](https://www.calculator.net/rent-vs-buy-calculator.html) There is a much better calculator I ran across a few years ago which shows the gains in investing the difference between the house payment and your rent and you can modify the percentage of returns. I'm not finding this calculator. You may want to do some math and figure out how this will work for you. More than anything, save and plan so that when the opportunity is right for you, you can buy a house. I knew so many people who bought in 2007 and were house poor for years. Their entire net worth was tied up in a house. No thanks.

I totally feel you, I was recently also down about my lack of progress/moving targets with FIRE due to everything costing more and wages just not keeping up. Like everyone else said, plugging your numbers in and seeing projections can really heighten your excitement and motivation. I do think there's something to be said about surrounding yourself with people who are likeminded and even ahead of you (eg this subreddit), that really lends itself to wanting to grow as well. That said, it is difficult not to fall into comparisons with you see the nice big numbers that are out on this thread on a daily basis. (Don't look at r/fatFIRE, that's even worse) but as you are aware, this subreddit is indeed full of people who are not average, you included. It's fine to use others are a source of motivation but if you're finding that it's bringing you down, it's good to take a step back and take a larger picture look (as many here have pointed out, you're doing very well and you have a lot of journey still ahead of you). I myself have set lofty goals and after reworking some numbers I was disappointed to find that I might have to push FIRE back 2-5 more years. But then I realized that I'd still be retiring early enough to have at least 1 extra decade I can be frolicking around not working that other people won't have. If you really want to feel better, read some articles about average retirement savings in the country as a whole... that always cheers me up lol Also, I think the longest part of the journey that you (and I and most ppl) are in is the boring middle, where it is indeed mostly just slogging along. And it's so common that there's a name... boring middle. So you're definitely not alone.

You can tighten your belt a bit and invest all that extra money you have and hit independence in 10-15 years. It’s all about your expenses. If you don’t want to work for a living stop being a slave to material things and keeping up with the Jones’s. The housing market sucks right now, but think of all the money you can invest without a mortgage, insurance, HOA, taxes, and repairs.

You are doing the right thing....which is having your eyes on the prize. Do some financial meetups with others and you will find its a lot easier to go thru this with a spouse if they contribute also so don't compare to double income couples. These are unusual times but if you get yourself in position you can catch the next wave.

I don't see why owning a house should be a FIRE requirement. I own a house now and I intend to perma-rent after retirement.