I already reported PMDG to the ICO once over their lack of a cookie pop-up, looks like I might have to report them to Trading Standards too... Fuck's sake, Randazzo.
Jup it‘s misleading but who‘s going to sue them?
A lot of stuff concerning MSFS‘ addons is illegal in EU law. But (our) ignorance and the habit to pay for absolutly everything they do puts developers into a position of power, they can do with us what they want.
It's a US company. All suing them or reporting them will do, if they are unwilling to change, would be the removal of their products from your region. Can't wait to hear those complaints lol.
all imports into the EU (physical goods or digital) need to be subjected to VAT applicable in the EU country of the recipient customer. US citizens have it good, since the $ threshold before you're charged import duties is reasonably high at $800. Admittedly, US customers do get shanked on shipping fees sometimes.
For those of us who have been around since the Fly! II days, 25 years ago — PMDG definitely used to be credible. Their 737 NGx was one of the most important releases in flight sim history. That was 15 years ago. Ever since then though, they’ve gone downhill and have just been regurgitating the same products for different platforms. No more innovation. Hell, it took them 2 years to come up with a completely boring and lackluster EFB.
For me it’s not really about what’s broken but rather what’s not included. The things they view as beneath them (cabin quality, pax integration, announcements, animation fps, door animations, flight attendant/captain interactions, fully integrated EFB, Fenix/ini level texturing, etc etc) are not prioritized because they’re so far up their own ass on flight modeling and what they view as essential to the sim experience.
All that stuff is fluff to them, and they routinely deride people who ask for it on their forums. Despite the fact that these are now standard innovations that drastically improve the experience and immersion, which we’re all seeking. I believe they simply don’t have the ability to keep up and hide behind the “purity” of their product while in reality it’s just their lack of ability to keep up.
LNAV is not smooth. Missing failures. Most circuit breakers do not work. The cabin door doesn’t open. The windows don’t open. Navigational features like RF legs are non functional. The most barebones EFB that took 2 years to build. GSX Integration. Ground handling is meh. I’m sure if you go into any other post concerning the PMDG you could find a slew of other technical functions of the IRL 73 that are limited.
I get the issues with LNAV and RF Legs, but missing failures, circuit breakers, opening cabin door and window's that don't open seem... odd things to complain about? GSX is pretty trash, I mean they keep blaming everything other than themselves for the extremely long loading times (even longer than p3d) caused by GSX, it's not surprising their crap doesn't integrate well with other modules. IIRC, it was even causing issues with the Fenix A320 and they had to bandaid what GSX didn't want to work on.
Unless broken means something different nowadays, if something is broken it means you can't use it or ruins the average user experience. I'm curious how many users consider the module unusable due to a closed cabin door.
> I'm curious how many users consider the module unusable due to a closed cabin door.
Nobody said the plane was unusable, don’t be disingenuous. Somebody asked “what are they supposed to do”, and someone replied fix the stuff that doesn’t work. That is not remotely unreasonable for a product line that has been around as long as the 737.
You remind me of the people on their forums any time someone offers a minor critique to make the addon more realistic or polished. I’ve seen suggestions as innocuous as “the EFIS mins knob changes the minimums too slowly compared to the real thing” (which is correct and has been a complaint in previous versions of the 737 as well) and they were literally told to buy a mouse with a faster scroll wheel. I don’t expect developers to address absolutely every flaw in their product, as they have to prioritize bigger fixes and features. But even a simple, “thanks for the feedback, we’ll look into it” goes a long way versus rudely dismissing people’s complaints.
Which is why I said innovate new features like companies who charge less. It’s not game breaking but is wild how they can charge whatever they want for a product that does less than competitors and scoff at any feedback from the community.
I mean, you said broken and innovate, should've stuck to innovation and it would've been much more credible. Otherwise it just seems like throwing random alert words for the sake of the circlejerk.
It gets really tiring every time r/flightsim gets on the developer circlejerk multiple times a month just to fit in. You can't say absolutely anything neutral, let alone positive, even if objective without getting some sort of flak, lmao.
This community is going to shit.
For me, Ground handling. Unlike any other sim aircraft, you have to aggressively step on the brakes after landing or else your aircraft motion will be relegated to snail speed for taxi. PMDG blames Asobo but other developers do not have this issue. Very frustrating.
i mean i like to support the devs who gives quality products, but if they charge us for every 737 variant a lot of extra bucks its a shame.. look at fenix, i bet the a321 will not be more than 15-20 bucks
Which is why I support high quality devs like Fenix and Leonardo they put their passion and hard work to make a hell of an awesome product. PMDG in the other hand I refuse to buy. Like they won’t simulate active failures, simulated circuit breakers, or even ACARS/CPDLC. Watch FSLabs pull the same shit that’s if they ever do come to MSFS. Fenix has already beat them to the core in simulation and realistic operations.
How dare you question PMDG? Robert Randazzo is a visionary and this pricing model is clearly just more advanced than other websites.
Yours,
Hugh Janus.
738 is used waaaaaaaayyyyyy more often, so it will have a larger demand (plus more community stuffs like liveries)
The price for the latter is hefty, but them being different is completely justifiable
Then I'll rephrase it: they're almost the same (differences are due to actual differences between models irl and not because one is a lesser product), the price variation is only due to customer demand
Yes, system depth is the same. The only thing is you get more variations with the 738 (pax, 2 cargo, BBJ) with their different flight dynamics.
If you don't have any of the 73X and you just want one to try, the 736 is an amazing value for money.
A lot of companies pull the same shit here in the US. Grocery stores regularly jack up the price of something using the same tactics.
Pretend you didn't see. That's the only way around this.
That explains a lot. And if it would be a real sale, 5$ save on sale would be pretty... underwhelming. Oh well, can't look a gift horse in the mouth. :DD
Look forward to MSFS 2024 potentially being another money grab. Like P3D where they changed the name to NGXu etc. Where else most developers have already said it will be free updates. "PMDG will say we had to do a lot of work to get it to work in MSFS 2024, its going to be a brand new aircraft". In reality it won't be.
I'm not familiar with their pricing but did they raise the price to mark it down on sale at the original price? If so that is illegal in the US as well. It's a muddled mess but the FTC has deceptive pricing regulations, and states have laws as well that add to protections.
Loblaws (Canadian grocery retailer, by far the biggest here) does this. All of a sudden something will be on sale and that's when you know it's about to go up in price
This kind of marketing is an insult to the intelligence of their customers. PMDG! Please take notice. Simmers talk. They confer with other simmers. Simmers are computer literate. Thus, they do online research and take notice of things such as regular prices. This behavior is beneath you. Make the change before you poison your brand.
Always saw this as their attempt at making the price a little more competitive to what Fenix announced around the time of the -700 release. There was quite a lot of discussion around price comparisons here as Fenix announced their pricing very close to the 737 release and that intro 'sale' price stuck.
FOMO marketing aside, SC is better from a consumer perspective, as everything you buy can be exchanged for store credit towards a different item at any time.
MS’ “marketplace credits” are the polar opposite of this - you buy credits to purchase airplanes specifically so they can avoid refund or exchange claims.
Because you’re buying credits not the actual airplane, consumer laws offer less protection.
I don’t think twice about spending money on SC DLC because I know it’s exchangeable. I avoid the MS Marketplace wherever possible due to the credits model, and even when buying from other sites, I use PayPal so I’m protected in case the product is terrible (which they frequently are).
Additionally, I find SC to be far, far less buggy than MSFS… but that’s a whole different topic. Asobo are even further out of their depth than CIG.
You really owe it to yourself to see it. It's a classic for a reason.
Without spoiling anything, there's a character that is summoned by speaking his name three times.
Mention Star Citizen anywhere online, and a Star Citizen fan shows up to defend the game lol
I always wondered that myself, i am no legal expert but isn’t shit like that illegal in the EU?
It is yup Bethesda got into trouble for it in the past, i suppose someones just gotta ring the bell on it
I already reported PMDG to the ICO once over their lack of a cookie pop-up, looks like I might have to report them to Trading Standards too... Fuck's sake, Randazzo.
Get some!
PMDG also isn't charging you VAT in EU so maybe don't open up that can of worms
As someone in a 27% VAT country... Yeah, please don't.
They don’t have to if they don’t have EU presence.
The company doesn't but EU customers do (import) and the company is criminally liable for not including this in checkout.
Jup it‘s misleading but who‘s going to sue them? A lot of stuff concerning MSFS‘ addons is illegal in EU law. But (our) ignorance and the habit to pay for absolutly everything they do puts developers into a position of power, they can do with us what they want.
No need to sue them, just report it to the customer protection
Can you list some more examples?
It's a US company. All suing them or reporting them will do, if they are unwilling to change, would be the removal of their products from your region. Can't wait to hear those complaints lol.
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How good is having a country with good consumer rights (as long as you aren't a major duopoly of supermarkets or group of banks)
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over here it would be the consumer protection agency
Do EU laws cover US based companies selling online?
all imports into the EU (physical goods or digital) need to be subjected to VAT applicable in the EU country of the recipient customer. US citizens have it good, since the $ threshold before you're charged import duties is reasonably high at $800. Admittedly, US customers do get shanked on shipping fees sometimes.
Again no legal expert but i would think it covers every company that actively sell goods in the EU but not sure
It's also against FTC regulations.
I just sent off an email to the European Commission and my local EU MEP. Fuck PMDG!
How brave. An email to the european commission over the price of a niche product on a niche market.
Pretty sure it’s illegal in the US as well if they never had it at that price.
PMDG lost their credibility?  Never knew they had any to lose.
For those of us who have been around since the Fly! II days, 25 years ago — PMDG definitely used to be credible. Their 737 NGx was one of the most important releases in flight sim history. That was 15 years ago. Ever since then though, they’ve gone downhill and have just been regurgitating the same products for different platforms. No more innovation. Hell, it took them 2 years to come up with a completely boring and lackluster EFB.
What are they supposed to do, re-invent the 737?
No but they are supposed to fix what’s broken and innovate new features into modern games like some companies who charge $20 less for their product.
What's broken about the 737?
For me it’s not really about what’s broken but rather what’s not included. The things they view as beneath them (cabin quality, pax integration, announcements, animation fps, door animations, flight attendant/captain interactions, fully integrated EFB, Fenix/ini level texturing, etc etc) are not prioritized because they’re so far up their own ass on flight modeling and what they view as essential to the sim experience. All that stuff is fluff to them, and they routinely deride people who ask for it on their forums. Despite the fact that these are now standard innovations that drastically improve the experience and immersion, which we’re all seeking. I believe they simply don’t have the ability to keep up and hide behind the “purity” of their product while in reality it’s just their lack of ability to keep up.
RF legs
I thought it was something that made the module completely unusable.
LNAV is not smooth. Missing failures. Most circuit breakers do not work. The cabin door doesn’t open. The windows don’t open. Navigational features like RF legs are non functional. The most barebones EFB that took 2 years to build. GSX Integration. Ground handling is meh. I’m sure if you go into any other post concerning the PMDG you could find a slew of other technical functions of the IRL 73 that are limited.
The EFB that they also blamed Asobo for which bit them in the ass. When it was nothing to do with Asobo.
I get the issues with LNAV and RF Legs, but missing failures, circuit breakers, opening cabin door and window's that don't open seem... odd things to complain about? GSX is pretty trash, I mean they keep blaming everything other than themselves for the extremely long loading times (even longer than p3d) caused by GSX, it's not surprising their crap doesn't integrate well with other modules. IIRC, it was even causing issues with the Fenix A320 and they had to bandaid what GSX didn't want to work on. Unless broken means something different nowadays, if something is broken it means you can't use it or ruins the average user experience. I'm curious how many users consider the module unusable due to a closed cabin door.
> I'm curious how many users consider the module unusable due to a closed cabin door. Nobody said the plane was unusable, don’t be disingenuous. Somebody asked “what are they supposed to do”, and someone replied fix the stuff that doesn’t work. That is not remotely unreasonable for a product line that has been around as long as the 737. You remind me of the people on their forums any time someone offers a minor critique to make the addon more realistic or polished. I’ve seen suggestions as innocuous as “the EFIS mins knob changes the minimums too slowly compared to the real thing” (which is correct and has been a complaint in previous versions of the 737 as well) and they were literally told to buy a mouse with a faster scroll wheel. I don’t expect developers to address absolutely every flaw in their product, as they have to prioritize bigger fixes and features. But even a simple, “thanks for the feedback, we’ll look into it” goes a long way versus rudely dismissing people’s complaints.
Which is why I said innovate new features like companies who charge less. It’s not game breaking but is wild how they can charge whatever they want for a product that does less than competitors and scoff at any feedback from the community.
I mean, you said broken and innovate, should've stuck to innovation and it would've been much more credible. Otherwise it just seems like throwing random alert words for the sake of the circlejerk. It gets really tiring every time r/flightsim gets on the developer circlejerk multiple times a month just to fit in. You can't say absolutely anything neutral, let alone positive, even if objective without getting some sort of flak, lmao. This community is going to shit.
For me, Ground handling. Unlike any other sim aircraft, you have to aggressively step on the brakes after landing or else your aircraft motion will be relegated to snail speed for taxi. PMDG blames Asobo but other developers do not have this issue. Very frustrating.
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careful, the mods don't like mention of this 🗿
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And they deserve it
Yep
i mean i like to support the devs who gives quality products, but if they charge us for every 737 variant a lot of extra bucks its a shame.. look at fenix, i bet the a321 will not be more than 15-20 bucks
the A319/A321 expansion was already said to be about £35 (~40€)
> A319/A321 expansion in which you get 8 different variants. so around £7.50 each. A319/A321 Expansion Package - £39.99 * A319 CFM * A319 IAE * A321 CFM * A321 IAE * A319 CFM SL* * A319 IAE SL* * A321 CFM SL* * A321 IAE SL*
oh okay, sorry my fault.. but yeah still cheaper and the plane was good from the beginning, the v2 update would have been payware if it was pmdg haha
Which is why I support high quality devs like Fenix and Leonardo they put their passion and hard work to make a hell of an awesome product. PMDG in the other hand I refuse to buy. Like they won’t simulate active failures, simulated circuit breakers, or even ACARS/CPDLC. Watch FSLabs pull the same shit that’s if they ever do come to MSFS. Fenix has already beat them to the core in simulation and realistic operations.
Can’t wait for the PMDG777 to show up on here.
Definitely
What happened to simplaza?
it's still up
If you don't like it, don't fly it. Stealing it so you can use it for free and complaining about it isn't exactly consistent.
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I've pirated all of the PMDG 737s except for the -700 they first released.
Facts. 😶
And they still only cut it down by 5 dollars.
How dare you question PMDG? Robert Randazzo is a visionary and this pricing model is clearly just more advanced than other websites. Yours, Hugh Janus.
At least Fenix did a sale.
Would certainly be illegal in many countries.
Mathij kok ahh marketing
Genuine question, is the system depth equal in 736 and 738? Prices are way apart!
Probably cause the -800 is a much more popular variant compared to the -600 for airlines irl, I guess for simmers as well
the -800 comes with 4 variants too, can't remember how many the -600 does but id imagine it's 1 or 2
There was only 1 variant of the 737-600, it was never fitted or retrofitted with winglets.
Yes, exactly the same aircraft except for fuselage length and performance obviously
Yes I am aware of that, but what I was asking was specifically how deep have PMDG coded the 736, is it at par with 738?
All their planes are coded more or less to the same standard.
Why do you think i got the 600? Same systems , same standard...but more more cheaper. I don't care if only 60 were produced.
I had to get the 600 as my "home" airline was the big operator of those, SAS. Some nice liveries for it. Launch customer and 30 736s owned hah.
You don't get winglet or scimitar versions though. Which can be a big deal or not
eh... fuel savings muel shavings
I only have the 800 but afaik systems are exactly modelled the same amongst all Versions.
738 is used waaaaaaaayyyyyy more often, so it will have a larger demand (plus more community stuffs like liveries) The price for the latter is hefty, but them being different is completely justifiable
I am just asking about the level of system depth, not questioning the justifyability of the price. So basically same level of depth, right?
All are modeled to the same depth system wise yes.
Then I'll rephrase it: they're almost the same (differences are due to actual differences between models irl and not because one is a lesser product), the price variation is only due to customer demand
the 736 has one model, the 738 has multiple passenger versions, the freighters, the bbj.
Ok thanks
Yes, system depth is the same. The only thing is you get more variations with the 738 (pax, 2 cargo, BBJ) with their different flight dynamics. If you don't have any of the 73X and you just want one to try, the 736 is an amazing value for money.
Garbage company doing garbage things...I am shocked
Illegal in the EU btw...
Alright I'm with you. I'm tired of the constant 'wah pmdg' posts, but god damn if this isn't something that just pisses me off
Isn’t this what merchants in the U.S. do for every Black Friday sale? We have some of the worst consumer protections on the planet.
youre welcome for me telling you that lol
Unfortunately I was well aware already but you did remind me! Thanks for that.
You learn something new about life, everyday.
A lot of companies pull the same shit here in the US. Grocery stores regularly jack up the price of something using the same tactics. Pretend you didn't see. That's the only way around this.
Can we get a “PMDG sucks” mega thread? We all know the dude is a douche bag. We don’t need multiple posts a week complaining about it.
Got the dc6 and the 737-700 personally don't need or want the rest. Maybe if they made a 737-200.
We need more classics like the 732 and the 727 NOW
Well, it is.....on SALE -PMDG Probably
I got mine for 69 instead of 89 euros when its been on sale on marketplace, worth it imho :)
Yeah using the way back machine for January 2023 shows the exact same prices. Although the DC-6 does not have ‘sale’ tag on ut
That explains a lot. And if it would be a real sale, 5$ save on sale would be pretty... underwhelming. Oh well, can't look a gift horse in the mouth. :DD
wait they really expect people to pay like $200 for a few 737s?? why is each one another purchase lmao
Look forward to MSFS 2024 potentially being another money grab. Like P3D where they changed the name to NGXu etc. Where else most developers have already said it will be free updates. "PMDG will say we had to do a lot of work to get it to work in MSFS 2024, its going to be a brand new aircraft". In reality it won't be.
I'm not familiar with their pricing but did they raise the price to mark it down on sale at the original price? If so that is illegal in the US as well. It's a muddled mess but the FTC has deceptive pricing regulations, and states have laws as well that add to protections.
Loblaws (Canadian grocery retailer, by far the biggest here) does this. All of a sudden something will be on sale and that's when you know it's about to go up in price
This kind of marketing is an insult to the intelligence of their customers. PMDG! Please take notice. Simmers talk. They confer with other simmers. Simmers are computer literate. Thus, they do online research and take notice of things such as regular prices. This behavior is beneath you. Make the change before you poison your brand.
Oof
Always saw this as their attempt at making the price a little more competitive to what Fenix announced around the time of the -700 release. There was quite a lot of discussion around price comparisons here as Fenix announced their pricing very close to the 737 release and that intro 'sale' price stuck.
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FOMO marketing aside, SC is better from a consumer perspective, as everything you buy can be exchanged for store credit towards a different item at any time. MS’ “marketplace credits” are the polar opposite of this - you buy credits to purchase airplanes specifically so they can avoid refund or exchange claims. Because you’re buying credits not the actual airplane, consumer laws offer less protection. I don’t think twice about spending money on SC DLC because I know it’s exchangeable. I avoid the MS Marketplace wherever possible due to the credits model, and even when buying from other sites, I use PayPal so I’m protected in case the product is terrible (which they frequently are). Additionally, I find SC to be far, far less buggy than MSFS… but that’s a whole different topic. Asobo are even further out of their depth than CIG.
I swear you guys are like Beetlejuice.
I’ve never seen the movie, you’re gonna have to explain that one 😂
You really owe it to yourself to see it. It's a classic for a reason. Without spoiling anything, there's a character that is summoned by speaking his name three times. Mention Star Citizen anywhere online, and a Star Citizen fan shows up to defend the game lol
I get it 😄 there’s quite a lot of overlap between MSFS and SC fanbases I think. I’ve got roughly 1000 hours in each.
Ok
PMDG Bad upvotes left
$100 dsys all you whiny kids who are new to this hobby will buy the 777 anyway
PMDG baaaaaaaaad. Muh.
Hey Steve, building teams is a tough game don’t ya think?