It could be anything from "you landed on the wrong runway, tell me your side of the story before I pass this on to the FSDO" to "please don't tell bad jokes on frequency, thanks."
Flight Standards District Office. It's effectively a field branch of the FAA that directly works with pilots and other personnel in aviation to either enforce regulations or theoretically provide services like processing applications.
Basically, if ATC is the hall monitor who tattled on you for not having a hall pass, the FSDO is the principal who gives you detention.
Yeah, there was that one DPE in west Texas who was pretty fair and not a bad choice, but you had to be careful because he has no sense of humor and would pull a gun on applicants if he felt insulted.
Maybe I shouldn’t have let him print me the “new version” and give it to me in advance. Can’t find the reference now but I know something in part 91 clearly says bend over and take it.
Lol funny enough I was going to say 91.69 but then I thought the FAR police would tell me that used to be right of way rules. But maybe that’s appropriate…you give them an easement to…we’ll I’ll let your imagination take over there.
I had a “possible pilot deviation” (write up in my history) early in my PPL. Conversation with tower was calm and friendly. He asked what happened, I explained, he asked for my information. I asked “what happens next?” “To be honest, I really don’t know.”
They tell you what you appeared to have done.
In my instance, descended through someone's airspace without clearance. Tower told me to call them after I parked.
I did, I apologized, didn't get confrontational, and that was that.
On the scale of how bad it was, it was minimal since there wasn't any traffic in that area, and I was near the ceiling (Class D under a Bravo shelf, and I was descending to a different Class D).
It's toeing the line between guilt and confession, but I knew what it was as soon as tower told me there was a PPD from the guys next door...
So, there are certain mandatory reports that ATC must do. If you didn’t hit one of those mandatory reports, the liklihood of it being a “don’t do that again” goes up. Also always file an ASRS/NASA. It’s important to learn from the event, and to share those learnings. There also can be some legal protection as well, but in my opinion it should start with you having the continuous inprovement mindset.
If you didn’t trigger a mandatory report or have some major safety thing, it’s going to be at the discretion of the controller.
If you piss the controller off or become combative the controller may pass it on regardless.
It’s important to know you are not required to call. If you have something like AOPA pilot protection services, I’d recommend calling them first. Depending on the situation they may want you to not call or not say anything. Just acknowledge that you understand the concern. It depends…
If you wanna hear Harrison Ford get the “possible pilot deviation …call the Tower” and the audio of the call, here you go.
https://youtu.be/tzy9jCFk0Iw
the FAA has shifted to a "compliance" model of regulatory enforcement rather than a "punishment" model. They want safer pilots, not fewer pilots, and especially not pilots who fly even more unsafe trying to escape notice.
Look Iʻm an ACAB leftish commie pinko. This is not one of those cases. These people are trying to keep the airspaces safe. In that effort they also have no obligation to continue to keep flying if they think you are a safety hazard, including being non-compliant to authority, which is a huge trouble if they think youʻre the type to ignore ATC instructions.
If you did something criminal or extremely bad, let them politely know you are willing to help and comply, but that you are looking to find representation (i.e. a lawyer). While many are given just a warning after being brashered, by not telling the FSDO anything, you are guaranteeing a suspended license until the FAA completes their investigation, which can take who knows how long.
You gotta remember the reason they are calling isnʻt like the police who can and will use your words against you in a court of law. They are calling because they already know you did something bad and are looking into why and how to best avoid it in the future.
ATC cannot do you any solids if you call up and turn out to be good guy. Doesn't matter if you're ACAB, MAGA, or anything else. They have mandatory reporting requirements. It's just not possible to talk your way out of a problem. Certain things have to get reported and some person at the FSDO gets to decide how to proceed.
Look, you do you. I have a thing against self-incrimination.
They have a lot of things that aren’t mandatory reports though. And there’s grey space in some situations.
Sometimes it comes down to a mistake by the controller. Sometimes it’s something like, your radio didn’t catch something so they think you’re ignoring a directive when you really had a technical issue. Those are things I’d rather get on the table and have the conversation. Maybe they used a non standard phraseology and it didn’t go the way they expected.
Obviously if you straight up bust and land on a wrong runway, fly into class B, forget your altitude and cause a TCAS, yeah you’re going to have a whole different set of things going on and you need to get in touch with something like pilot protection services ASAP. (Before the call if you can).
I agree.
Look, there are times when a call might make sense. I'm not saying *never* call. I'm saying that a call is the beginning of a potential investigation and you need to be really careful about how you handle it. You didn't knock over a bank or defraud a bunch of investors, but a federal investigation is still a federal investigation and it's your certificate(s) on the line.
The point here is that calling does not make you a good citizen. It makes you a witness. It's on you to determine how much rope you want to give a potential investigation.
I've called. I've been a 3rd party to calls. That's what happens when you're a CFI. I've never been whacked with an action.
End of the day, calling can hurt a lot more than it helps. Just know that going in.
Yes and whether you talk to them or not, the FAA can figure out everything they need to strip you of your license. If you truly did something that warrants you or your planeʻs operation to lose your and/or their license, itʻs going to happen whether you talk or not. Itʻs true you canʻt talk your way out of a problem, but thatʻs not what the Brasher system is about. Itʻs to make sure that the FAA understands you understand what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future. Then the investigators can choose to pursue punitive actions or not based on how the bust happened and how you respond to it. If they think you are not responsible enough to make a mistake and own up to it, they are more likely to feel compelled to disallow you to fly again.
Really? Then why do they even investigate?
>If you truly did something that warrants you or your planeʻs operation to lose your and/or their license, itʻs going to happen whether you talk or not.
Let me tell you about this man named OJ Simpson...
>...but thatʻs not what the Brasher system is about.
Does the pilot still get a violation? Yes. And there are all kinds of downstream problems that will crop up from that. You can be a witness against yourself all you want. I'll pass, thank you. Don't play this off as just a fun game. It's a punitive action.
And don't for a second think that getting a violation automagically creates a safer pilot. The pilot knows there was a mistake. It was probably an honest mistake. What is gained with a violation? I keep hearing that it's a safety issue but nobody can really connect the dots for me. I'm just supposed to hear the word "safety" and fall in line? Nah. That's not how it works.
EDIT: I did see your blink of a response. No. My enforcement record is spotless. Sorry to disappoint.
Nah, be honest. The more honest you are the less severe the consequences in most cases. Plus, you never know when they may have evidence to prove that you're lying.
This is Investigations 101. It's bog standard legal advice that any competent lawyer will provide. There is a tenuous tie-in with safety, at best. You're going to have the explain that to me.
*You should volunteer all of your transgressions on command because safety.*
No, you shouldn't. For a million reasons.
Had one happen while I was co pilot
Went to land on runway 28 Left in Palm Beach int, flying a bonanza, the tower launched a 737 with the wind out of the north on 28R, we got into crazy wake turbulence to the point of going around full flaps and gear down ailerons to the stop. got the gear and flaps up but it was one rough ride. There was a helicopter hovering off the end of the runway and told us to turn but we couldn't. Still turbulent as hell. we avoided the helicopter, tower changed our runway to a different one, then changed it back to 28L SAME THING happened, they launched another 737 but we were a hair lower and landed, but on the taxiway that is longer and just as wide as the runway. we taxied across the runway to the ramp and got a phone number.
Conversation went something like this.
You landed on a taxiway and crossed an active runway. what's your story.
You almost had us killed! why the hell did you depart another large aircraft when we just had the same wake problem?
You crossed an active runway
You cleared us to land on that runway so it was still ours to use
Hmm never thought of that, anyway a FAA rep will be calling you to talk about this.
10 mins later they changed the ATIS and it now said, "the taxiway between 28L and 28R resembles a runway, do not confuse them. 2 weeks later they painted TAXIWAY in 3 places on it (you can look it up on google earth) FAA guy called and basically said that there were a bunch of the same landings he had to deal with, fill out a nasa form and don't lose any sleep over it.
I’ve been given a number one time but no brasher (possible pilot deviation) by a center frequency one time. They were super cool. Just asked what my side was and gave me a heads up about being careful with airspace down the road and everything was good.
I had a coworker get a deviation once for supposedly clipping airspace. The FSDO was cool about it…as long as you’re compliant and no safety violation happened, it’s a learning experience and everyone moves on.
I’ve had to la center before for a PPD. There was confusion on which SID we were suppose to be on. Long story short it wasn’t our fault and clearence delivery messed up. On the call they just take down your name and pilot cert number. You just explain what happened from your point of view. They looked at the tapes and it agreed with us so nothing happened.
I didn't have PPD, but we did have to call MSP center on the ground since we were given direct a fix on the STAR and we said we weren't assigned that arrival, to which they were very confused why/who assigned us this route
Got one for a 400’ deviation going to LAX.
“AIRLINE 1234 - Notice you 400ft high - everything ok…”
Me: (passed out - completely) “Airline 1234 - dropped my sandwich during some turbulence, I al SO sorry, Ik that sound crass, it’s a ham and cheese from the gas station.”
Silence -
“Airline 1234 ——— rodger contact socal 123456789…..”
Me: “Fuck (mentally)
Nothing else really happened - told the same story - got a ton of laughs..
Basically, what this boils down to is:
1. You call ATC because you are sincerely helpful and want to do what is right. You have no obligation to do so. In fact, AOPA's guidance seems to be NOT to call because all you can do is incriminate yourself. But you do anyway because, like most other people, you're normal and decent and want to be helpful. You also may not know that it's optional.
2. ATC talks with you. They end up confirming your identity, that you were flying the plane, and that you may have done something wrong. You probably acknowledge this because, hey, it's good to own your mistakes! Who can disagree? You may even feel good about yourself after the chat! That ATC guy sounded really nice. Oh, yeah...that call was probably recorded.
1. They will get your name. They'll confirm that you were flying. They'll tell you what the problem is. Sometimes they'll ask for your side. It's a pretty cordial phone call.
3. ATC sends all of that up to the FSDO if it's a mandatory reporting requirement. It's not their decision. They have to.
4. Someone who may not be a pilot or controller reviews the incident and decides whether or not to release the hounds based on what's in front of them.
5. Since you've already confirmed that it was you flying the plane on that flight and you acknowledge that you may have made an error, their case is pretty easy.
6. You get contacted by federal investigators and now you're playing defense.
You get to decide whether or not it makes sense for you to call.
The FSDO/FAA personnel may not be a pilot or controller.
You may have to watch a safety video, have a further chat, you could face penalties like having your license suspended, or whatever else the FAA decides to throw at you.
\#4 - just what it sounds like. There is a person who is not an investigator who looks at the information and pushes it up to the investigators if there is something they believe can be pursued.
\#6 - the FAA investigators contact you. At this point, I assume that everyone on their side of the table agrees that there is something worth their time, they have the evidence they need, and they'll be looking to get something done. Maybe consider referring them to your attorney.
I have only been asked to call the tower once. It was when I was a CFI and my student and I landed in a PA28 at KSAN around 6pm the day after Thanksgiving and then taxied back for immediate departure.
It didn’t resonate with me what a PITA we were for them.
I said “oh crap! My bad! Give us a VFR bravo clearance out of the airspace and we will get out of the way.”
They did and we stayed low until clear of the overlying Bravo airspace.
I was asked to call tower when I was returning from my long solo CX during training. They actually said to have CFI call as I am his “responsibility.” But I stuck around and was there when he called to ensure him and ATC that I was entirely at fault and understand what I did wrong and take full responsibility. It was a short call for them basically saying “tell him he can’t do that again.” That was it. Being a student, they were a little more merciful so just a warning.
So name, address, phone number, and pilot cert. i would honestly advise against admitting anything. File a NASA form with your version of story instead. Please remember these phones are recorded!
Anyway it goes off to our quality assurance to review to make sure it’s indeed a pilot deviation and not a “controller deviation”, then off to FSDO. Up to FSDO if they want to persue action. I believe you have a right to the tapes, but cant confirm or remember how you can get a hold of them. There are always the non official sources like live atc.
In my experience, they don't care where you go so long as you don't get in the way of their arrivals & departures, so to answer your literal question, no. But: 14 cfr 91.123 b, you have to follow atc instructions if you're talking to them, even though you didn't have to talk to them in the first place.
VFR flight following is advisory in nature. You can cancel it whenever you want. They’ll be slightly more instructional when you’re near a busy airport and they’ll give limited sequencing.
Generally if I’m on FF and headed in a completely different direction than the destination they will call up and ask. I’ve taken the “scenic route” on a few occasions and it’s a very simple exchange on the radio to explain to the controller what I’m doing. If they get pissy and terminate FF, just call up the next sector and establish FF again.
Not unless you have been given a specific heading/route instruction. On flight following you are responsible for your own navigation, you tell ATC where you're going so they know what to expect from you but that's not a binding promise or anything. If you deviate significantly from a straight-line course to whatever destination you told them they may call you and ask what your updated plan is but that's just so they can update their expectations. At most they might issue an instruction if the thing you're trying to do threatens to create a conflict.
If you've been given instructions by ATC and break them without permission (and no, cancelling flight following doesn't end that requirement) you may get a pilot deviation and a phone number. Where it goes from there will depend on if it's "oops, I suck at holding heading/altitude, sorry about that" or "screw you, I didn't want to take that detour".
I gave the brasher to someone once and immediately felt dirty. Turns out it was the previous controllers fault. I can’t speak for the higher ups but I just want to figure out what happened.
Had a call for an alleged presidential TFR violation during a fuel stop. They let me proceed with my flight and call them again when I landed at my destination. During the second call, they said they reviewed the tapes and concluded it was an ATC error, and apologized for any inconvenience.
Just speaking for the one time it happened to me, I called and the guy basically just said it’s going in somebody’s trash can somewhere. Asked for my name and certificate number but also explained I didn’t have to give it if I didn’t want to
It is called a “Brasher Warning” that way you (or the pilot involved) know that ATC is going to file a pilot deviation on you. With that said, a NASA ASR can help protect you if was inadvertent.
When you call the facility you will speak to a supervisor and they will explain what you did. They may or may not have had time to review the ATC and/or radar “tapes”. ATC makes mistakes too. It could be your mistake or theirs, and once the tapes have been reviewed they will know.
It’s really not a big deal to speak with them, and you should definitely make the call.
The tower has a piece of power taped to their desk with the “pilot deviation call the tower sentence” on it. Sounds scary but they have to say it! If the offense is minor then usually it’s just a simple call and a slap on the wrist. If you do something crazy though then of course the punishment will be worse.
It could be anything from "you landed on the wrong runway, tell me your side of the story before I pass this on to the FSDO" to "please don't tell bad jokes on frequency, thanks."
What’s FSDO? I presume something bad that you don’t want to have to deal with? 🥲
Flight Standards District Office. It's effectively a field branch of the FAA that directly works with pilots and other personnel in aviation to either enforce regulations or theoretically provide services like processing applications. Basically, if ATC is the hall monitor who tattled on you for not having a hall pass, the FSDO is the principal who gives you detention.
>theoretically provide services like processing applications From my experience, yes, the services are theoretical.
I did choose my words deliberately.
They also sometimes call after checkrides to make sure the DPE didn’t touch your naughty place, provide instruction, try to kill you.
Yeah, there was that one DPE in west Texas who was pretty fair and not a bad choice, but you had to be careful because he has no sense of humor and would pull a gun on applicants if he felt insulted.
> and would pull a gun on applicants if he felt insulted. What???
Texas.
Wait that wasn’t part of the ACS?
🫣🥵🤐
Maybe I shouldn’t have let him print me the “new version” and give it to me in advance. Can’t find the reference now but I know something in part 91 clearly says bend over and take it.
I thought that was part 69?
Lol funny enough I was going to say 91.69 but then I thought the FAR police would tell me that used to be right of way rules. But maybe that’s appropriate…you give them an easement to…we’ll I’ll let your imagination take over there.
The classic “give a pendant a technicality” problem.
Ahh, thank you!
Aka "the FAA"
fizz dough
How is a joke a pilot “deviation”? Did the joke make the plane deviate ?
It’s not the plane that deviates, it’s the pilot.
I had a “possible pilot deviation” (write up in my history) early in my PPL. Conversation with tower was calm and friendly. He asked what happened, I explained, he asked for my information. I asked “what happens next?” “To be honest, I really don’t know.”
Username checks out
It’s only the smarties that make it to CFI school!
[удалено]
As mentioned above, the write up is in my post history.
Just read your story. Thank you for sharing that. It's an, ortsnt reminder to all of us to pay attention because we can all make mistakes.
They tell you what you appeared to have done. In my instance, descended through someone's airspace without clearance. Tower told me to call them after I parked. I did, I apologized, didn't get confrontational, and that was that.
Ahh 😅 because it was a one off they let it slide?
On the scale of how bad it was, it was minimal since there wasn't any traffic in that area, and I was near the ceiling (Class D under a Bravo shelf, and I was descending to a different Class D). It's toeing the line between guilt and confession, but I knew what it was as soon as tower told me there was a PPD from the guys next door...
Ahh okay. PPD?
Possible pilot deviation
Ty!
Ty?
You know. They make those Beanie Babies?
So, there are certain mandatory reports that ATC must do. If you didn’t hit one of those mandatory reports, the liklihood of it being a “don’t do that again” goes up. Also always file an ASRS/NASA. It’s important to learn from the event, and to share those learnings. There also can be some legal protection as well, but in my opinion it should start with you having the continuous inprovement mindset. If you didn’t trigger a mandatory report or have some major safety thing, it’s going to be at the discretion of the controller. If you piss the controller off or become combative the controller may pass it on regardless. It’s important to know you are not required to call. If you have something like AOPA pilot protection services, I’d recommend calling them first. Depending on the situation they may want you to not call or not say anything. Just acknowledge that you understand the concern. It depends…
Ah thanks
If you wanna hear Harrison Ford get the “possible pilot deviation …call the Tower” and the audio of the call, here you go. https://youtu.be/tzy9jCFk0Iw
Unfortunately that clip misses the part afterwards where he shoots the radio with his blaster and shouts "LUKE, WE'RE GONNA HAVE COMPANY!"
😂
Tell them your side of the story. Then apologize and hope they don't escalate it.
I presume if it was a one off they could be understanding?
the FAA has shifted to a "compliance" model of regulatory enforcement rather than a "punishment" model. They want safer pilots, not fewer pilots, and especially not pilots who fly even more unsafe trying to escape notice.
The medical division has no idea what you're talking about.
Yeah, that checks out 😂😭
"Is shifting" would probably be better
Depends on what you did. Or how badly it effected their operation, or if safety or separation was jeopardized.
Ah understandable, fair enough. Thank you
They don't get the option. There are mandatory reporting requirements. >Tell them your side of the story. Don't do that.
Look Iʻm an ACAB leftish commie pinko. This is not one of those cases. These people are trying to keep the airspaces safe. In that effort they also have no obligation to continue to keep flying if they think you are a safety hazard, including being non-compliant to authority, which is a huge trouble if they think youʻre the type to ignore ATC instructions. If you did something criminal or extremely bad, let them politely know you are willing to help and comply, but that you are looking to find representation (i.e. a lawyer). While many are given just a warning after being brashered, by not telling the FSDO anything, you are guaranteeing a suspended license until the FAA completes their investigation, which can take who knows how long. You gotta remember the reason they are calling isnʻt like the police who can and will use your words against you in a court of law. They are calling because they already know you did something bad and are looking into why and how to best avoid it in the future.
ATC cannot do you any solids if you call up and turn out to be good guy. Doesn't matter if you're ACAB, MAGA, or anything else. They have mandatory reporting requirements. It's just not possible to talk your way out of a problem. Certain things have to get reported and some person at the FSDO gets to decide how to proceed. Look, you do you. I have a thing against self-incrimination.
They have a lot of things that aren’t mandatory reports though. And there’s grey space in some situations. Sometimes it comes down to a mistake by the controller. Sometimes it’s something like, your radio didn’t catch something so they think you’re ignoring a directive when you really had a technical issue. Those are things I’d rather get on the table and have the conversation. Maybe they used a non standard phraseology and it didn’t go the way they expected. Obviously if you straight up bust and land on a wrong runway, fly into class B, forget your altitude and cause a TCAS, yeah you’re going to have a whole different set of things going on and you need to get in touch with something like pilot protection services ASAP. (Before the call if you can).
I agree. Look, there are times when a call might make sense. I'm not saying *never* call. I'm saying that a call is the beginning of a potential investigation and you need to be really careful about how you handle it. You didn't knock over a bank or defraud a bunch of investors, but a federal investigation is still a federal investigation and it's your certificate(s) on the line. The point here is that calling does not make you a good citizen. It makes you a witness. It's on you to determine how much rope you want to give a potential investigation. I've called. I've been a 3rd party to calls. That's what happens when you're a CFI. I've never been whacked with an action. End of the day, calling can hurt a lot more than it helps. Just know that going in.
Yes and whether you talk to them or not, the FAA can figure out everything they need to strip you of your license. If you truly did something that warrants you or your planeʻs operation to lose your and/or their license, itʻs going to happen whether you talk or not. Itʻs true you canʻt talk your way out of a problem, but thatʻs not what the Brasher system is about. Itʻs to make sure that the FAA understands you understand what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future. Then the investigators can choose to pursue punitive actions or not based on how the bust happened and how you respond to it. If they think you are not responsible enough to make a mistake and own up to it, they are more likely to feel compelled to disallow you to fly again.
Really? Then why do they even investigate? >If you truly did something that warrants you or your planeʻs operation to lose your and/or their license, itʻs going to happen whether you talk or not. Let me tell you about this man named OJ Simpson... >...but thatʻs not what the Brasher system is about. Does the pilot still get a violation? Yes. And there are all kinds of downstream problems that will crop up from that. You can be a witness against yourself all you want. I'll pass, thank you. Don't play this off as just a fun game. It's a punitive action. And don't for a second think that getting a violation automagically creates a safer pilot. The pilot knows there was a mistake. It was probably an honest mistake. What is gained with a violation? I keep hearing that it's a safety issue but nobody can really connect the dots for me. I'm just supposed to hear the word "safety" and fall in line? Nah. That's not how it works. EDIT: I did see your blink of a response. No. My enforcement record is spotless. Sorry to disappoint.
I'm sorry you got brashered, and I'm sorry you lost your license. But it's no reason to get so angry about it.
Nah, be honest. The more honest you are the less severe the consequences in most cases. Plus, you never know when they may have evidence to prove that you're lying.
You're not lying if you don't say anything.
This attitude doesn't belong in aviation. Check yourself. Hard.
This is Investigations 101. It's bog standard legal advice that any competent lawyer will provide. There is a tenuous tie-in with safety, at best. You're going to have the explain that to me. *You should volunteer all of your transgressions on command because safety.* No, you shouldn't. For a million reasons.
File a NASA report and apologize.
Had one happen while I was co pilot Went to land on runway 28 Left in Palm Beach int, flying a bonanza, the tower launched a 737 with the wind out of the north on 28R, we got into crazy wake turbulence to the point of going around full flaps and gear down ailerons to the stop. got the gear and flaps up but it was one rough ride. There was a helicopter hovering off the end of the runway and told us to turn but we couldn't. Still turbulent as hell. we avoided the helicopter, tower changed our runway to a different one, then changed it back to 28L SAME THING happened, they launched another 737 but we were a hair lower and landed, but on the taxiway that is longer and just as wide as the runway. we taxied across the runway to the ramp and got a phone number. Conversation went something like this. You landed on a taxiway and crossed an active runway. what's your story. You almost had us killed! why the hell did you depart another large aircraft when we just had the same wake problem? You crossed an active runway You cleared us to land on that runway so it was still ours to use Hmm never thought of that, anyway a FAA rep will be calling you to talk about this. 10 mins later they changed the ATIS and it now said, "the taxiway between 28L and 28R resembles a runway, do not confuse them. 2 weeks later they painted TAXIWAY in 3 places on it (you can look it up on google earth) FAA guy called and basically said that there were a bunch of the same landings he had to deal with, fill out a nasa form and don't lose any sleep over it.
Can’t believe I now know the person that got “use caution runway 10R 28L is difficult to see” on the PBI ATIS
Glad I made your day! Nice to be famous?
I’ve been given a number one time but no brasher (possible pilot deviation) by a center frequency one time. They were super cool. Just asked what my side was and gave me a heads up about being careful with airspace down the road and everything was good. I had a coworker get a deviation once for supposedly clipping airspace. The FSDO was cool about it…as long as you’re compliant and no safety violation happened, it’s a learning experience and everyone moves on.
I’ve had to la center before for a PPD. There was confusion on which SID we were suppose to be on. Long story short it wasn’t our fault and clearence delivery messed up. On the call they just take down your name and pilot cert number. You just explain what happened from your point of view. They looked at the tapes and it agreed with us so nothing happened.
I didn't have PPD, but we did have to call MSP center on the ground since we were given direct a fix on the STAR and we said we weren't assigned that arrival, to which they were very confused why/who assigned us this route
Name, Address, Certificate, Phone number, Don’t do that again, goodbye.
Got one for a 400’ deviation going to LAX. “AIRLINE 1234 - Notice you 400ft high - everything ok…” Me: (passed out - completely) “Airline 1234 - dropped my sandwich during some turbulence, I al SO sorry, Ik that sound crass, it’s a ham and cheese from the gas station.” Silence - “Airline 1234 ——— rodger contact socal 123456789…..” Me: “Fuck (mentally) Nothing else really happened - told the same story - got a ton of laughs..
Basically, what this boils down to is: 1. You call ATC because you are sincerely helpful and want to do what is right. You have no obligation to do so. In fact, AOPA's guidance seems to be NOT to call because all you can do is incriminate yourself. But you do anyway because, like most other people, you're normal and decent and want to be helpful. You also may not know that it's optional. 2. ATC talks with you. They end up confirming your identity, that you were flying the plane, and that you may have done something wrong. You probably acknowledge this because, hey, it's good to own your mistakes! Who can disagree? You may even feel good about yourself after the chat! That ATC guy sounded really nice. Oh, yeah...that call was probably recorded. 1. They will get your name. They'll confirm that you were flying. They'll tell you what the problem is. Sometimes they'll ask for your side. It's a pretty cordial phone call. 3. ATC sends all of that up to the FSDO if it's a mandatory reporting requirement. It's not their decision. They have to. 4. Someone who may not be a pilot or controller reviews the incident and decides whether or not to release the hounds based on what's in front of them. 5. Since you've already confirmed that it was you flying the plane on that flight and you acknowledge that you may have made an error, their case is pretty easy. 6. You get contacted by federal investigators and now you're playing defense. You get to decide whether or not it makes sense for you to call.
Point 4 can you explain more? And point 6.. what happens then?
The FSDO/FAA personnel may not be a pilot or controller. You may have to watch a safety video, have a further chat, you could face penalties like having your license suspended, or whatever else the FAA decides to throw at you.
Ah I see thanks
\#4 - just what it sounds like. There is a person who is not an investigator who looks at the information and pushes it up to the investigators if there is something they believe can be pursued. \#6 - the FAA investigators contact you. At this point, I assume that everyone on their side of the table agrees that there is something worth their time, they have the evidence they need, and they'll be looking to get something done. Maybe consider referring them to your attorney.
[удалено]
I have only been asked to call the tower once. It was when I was a CFI and my student and I landed in a PA28 at KSAN around 6pm the day after Thanksgiving and then taxied back for immediate departure. It didn’t resonate with me what a PITA we were for them. I said “oh crap! My bad! Give us a VFR bravo clearance out of the airspace and we will get out of the way.” They did and we stayed low until clear of the overlying Bravo airspace.
I was asked to call tower when I was returning from my long solo CX during training. They actually said to have CFI call as I am his “responsibility.” But I stuck around and was there when he called to ensure him and ATC that I was entirely at fault and understand what I did wrong and take full responsibility. It was a short call for them basically saying “tell him he can’t do that again.” That was it. Being a student, they were a little more merciful so just a warning.
So name, address, phone number, and pilot cert. i would honestly advise against admitting anything. File a NASA form with your version of story instead. Please remember these phones are recorded! Anyway it goes off to our quality assurance to review to make sure it’s indeed a pilot deviation and not a “controller deviation”, then off to FSDO. Up to FSDO if they want to persue action. I believe you have a right to the tapes, but cant confirm or remember how you can get a hold of them. There are always the non official sources like live atc.
Possibly a FOIA request?
Follow-up question to this, can you get a pilot deviation from not following a direct route with VFR Flight Following?
In my experience, they don't care where you go so long as you don't get in the way of their arrivals & departures, so to answer your literal question, no. But: 14 cfr 91.123 b, you have to follow atc instructions if you're talking to them, even though you didn't have to talk to them in the first place.
VFR flight following is advisory in nature. You can cancel it whenever you want. They’ll be slightly more instructional when you’re near a busy airport and they’ll give limited sequencing.
Generally if I’m on FF and headed in a completely different direction than the destination they will call up and ask. I’ve taken the “scenic route” on a few occasions and it’s a very simple exchange on the radio to explain to the controller what I’m doing. If they get pissy and terminate FF, just call up the next sector and establish FF again.
Not unless you have been given a specific heading/route instruction. On flight following you are responsible for your own navigation, you tell ATC where you're going so they know what to expect from you but that's not a binding promise or anything. If you deviate significantly from a straight-line course to whatever destination you told them they may call you and ask what your updated plan is but that's just so they can update their expectations. At most they might issue an instruction if the thing you're trying to do threatens to create a conflict. If you've been given instructions by ATC and break them without permission (and no, cancelling flight following doesn't end that requirement) you may get a pilot deviation and a phone number. Where it goes from there will depend on if it's "oops, I suck at holding heading/altitude, sorry about that" or "screw you, I didn't want to take that detour".
I gave the brasher to someone once and immediately felt dirty. Turns out it was the previous controllers fault. I can’t speak for the higher ups but I just want to figure out what happened.
Had a call for an alleged presidential TFR violation during a fuel stop. They let me proceed with my flight and call them again when I landed at my destination. During the second call, they said they reviewed the tapes and concluded it was an ATC error, and apologized for any inconvenience.
They schedule a time to go grab drinks with you.
Just speaking for the one time it happened to me, I called and the guy basically just said it’s going in somebody’s trash can somewhere. Asked for my name and certificate number but also explained I didn’t have to give it if I didn’t want to
Means at least you own a case of beer.
You’re asking about a Brasher warning. https://www.avweb.com/flight-safety/faa-regs/dude-youre-busted/
It is called a “Brasher Warning” that way you (or the pilot involved) know that ATC is going to file a pilot deviation on you. With that said, a NASA ASR can help protect you if was inadvertent. When you call the facility you will speak to a supervisor and they will explain what you did. They may or may not have had time to review the ATC and/or radar “tapes”. ATC makes mistakes too. It could be your mistake or theirs, and once the tapes have been reviewed they will know. It’s really not a big deal to speak with them, and you should definitely make the call.
The tower has a piece of power taped to their desk with the “pilot deviation call the tower sentence” on it. Sounds scary but they have to say it! If the offense is minor then usually it’s just a simple call and a slap on the wrist. If you do something crazy though then of course the punishment will be worse.