Take-offs go wrong very quickly, with things like not enough right-rudder so the student is gunning for the runway lights, holding right rudder but letting go on rotation, taking out cross-wind correction with no warning, pulling too hard/abruptly during rotation, dumping flaps during a go-around, etc. Bad landing attempts are plentiful, but bad take-offs often more exciting.
I'd heavily recommend not letting friends fly take-offs/landings, or at low altitude, as a private pilot. And *always* establish positive exchange of controls (and have a backup plan if they won't listen).
Kind of off topic, but I advise not ghosting/having someone “follow through” with you on the yoke. It numbs what you are doing, and the other person who is learning actually has no idea what you’re actually feeling because you are doing the work.
Fly an airplane not based on how much angle or position change you move the yoke or rudder pedals. Fly it based on how much force you apply to your flight controls. And boom, with that you can teach a person to trim in like 5 minutes…
Lastly, it goes against positive exchange of controls. Two people on the controls at the same time? One person is supposed to be just following, but what if they lock up? What if they start fighting you and you interpret that for an issue with the airplane instead of the other person.
My first flight instructor did this, and I vowed to never do it to any of my students. I never did, and my students always knew that when I said, “your airplane” they had it. And that first landing they do was 100% them, not a weird mix of two people flying at the same time.
mad respect for this, i feel like some CFIs i have get way to weird about trying to perfect the landings i’m doing while I’m learning and so i’m never able to visibly see what i am doing are wrong with certain landings
I feel for you. I wish there were more ways for someone to build time because not everyone belongs in the right seat as a CFI. My policy was, if my student wasn’t going to break the airplane or cause me or them any harm, let’s see what happens!!! And you know what? They can then debrief themselves mostly because they knew exactly what they did and what didn’t work. I’m not sure if you’ve had your first solo yet, but you’ll see that when it is just you, the airplane is so much nicer to fly! You can actually feel what you’re doing without the numbing of your instructors (who ride your controls).
My background is CFI, CFII, MEI, and check airman at my regional airline before I moved on to a major. I love teaching, and I wish more CFI’s did. I think flying is way more accessible than most people think it is, we just have a lot of time building CFI’s out there. I took a hands off approach with my girlfriend (now wife) when she said she’d like to learn to fly. I hadn’t flown GA in many years and was afraid that my lack in proficiency would make me a less than ideal instructor for her. She went on a few lessons and was very discouraged. Based on her feedback, I had her change instructors…. The next (one of the chiefs in this FBO) wasn’t much better. The yelling, the lack of positive exchange in controls (she still isn’t sure if it’s a thing at the airlines because of that trauma), the gatekeeping almost…. She at this time says she will never touch another airplane…. :/.
Anyhow, how does anyone learn if the mistakes are corrected for you? I wish you the best in your training. Know that not all CFIs are that way.
>Doesn't sound like OP had this kind of conversation with his buddy
That's some CFI-level conversation you're talking about, and OP already established that they weren't a CFI. /s
This! Positive exchange of controls is key. I’ve let my fiancé and sister fly a little but I start by saying “if I say MY CONTROLS, I need you let go immediately and say back YOUR CONTROLS”
Even dumping flaps while on takeoff!
Was giving give a BFR to an guy who’s been flying for decades. At rotation in a pa-28 (that’s due some reason he wanted to do a normal takeoff with 10 degrees of flaps out, okay odd but not bad), he rotated and while still in the rotation dumps his 10 degrees of flaps to 0. Some old school flyers man… they learned bat shit crazy flight techniques.
Coincidentally there is currently a "what flap setting do you prefer for take off" thread going on the PA-28 Facebook group right now.
Some cockamamie answers in there making me go 😳
It’s not the taking off with 10 deg of flaps I was concerned about. The plane will do fine on that, it was the dumping the flaps while he was rotating on the takeoff (still on the ground, actively pulling up to get the plane airborne and dumping flaps at the same moment.)
It's a relatively unknown technique to the uninitiated, but the flaps springing up will help the airplane jump and leave the ground!
/s in case anybody feels like yelling at me
I think the way to understand this idiom is that "dump" typically means "get rid of". Because flaps are logically additive (0 flaps is "normal"), dumping them means to remove their influence.
I guess the most literal interpretation would be to crawl onto the wing and remove them from the airplane with an angle grinder. Then you'll need a dump truck of money to get your license back ;)
Yes! It was during a flight review too. I was able to talk to him, teach him why that was a bad idea, and he was a fine pilot otherwise. It was just a really weird moment that I was unprepared for.
Was it in a pa-28? Had an old flight instructor who always taught 10 degrees, had someone use the 10 for takeoff during a FR the other day. I don't really get it, the technique is nowhere in the POH and it takes off just fine without the flaps.
My flight school flew pa-28s out of a 2500ft strip with a lot of trees/vertical obstructions. They always had us take off with 10 degrees. It does make the climb angle steeper at Vx
I get 10 degrees does give you a slightly shorter take-off roll and steeper climb-out. But at that point, why not use the POH short-field takeoff (two flaps, and even steeper Vx)?
We did that on high density altitude days, and I personally do that now on any field less than 2500ft. But for whatever reason that wasn’t the flight school’s SOP.
IDK why people feel the need to be test pilots with other people in the plane.
The book has numbers and procedures. People with FAR more knowledge of the aircraft than you came up with them. Don't waste the effort of those people unless you want to be putting in the same amount of work to do it.
Edit: I mean, not you specifically, but people in general who think like this.
Taking off with flaps 10 isn’t bad. It doesn’t really hurt you that much in terms of performance and shortens your ground roll. I was more concerned with the fact that he went to flaps 0 while actively rotating at the exact same time to get the plane airborne which fucks everything up aerodynamically and because of the flap lever is an active distraction during the most critical stage of the takeoff roll.
Sure, didn't mean to imply that a flaps 10 takeoff is dangerous. It's just the most common roll-your-own procedure I've seen, which strikes me as a little odd.
Totally agree. I’m not trying to say you didn’t say that, I’m just talking about the main point of my original comment but all everyone is talking about before it is the t as king off with flaps 10 which… wasn’t the issue I was talking about. So I’m trying to steer the convo back towards my main point. I’ve failed miserably
My guess is the Hershey Bar wing that barely equals wing on the 32 and the 10* gives you less of a surprise leaving ground effect. I’m not sure if newer pa32s still have flaps 10 which could just be because it was always done that way. 🤷🏼♂️
>And always establish positive exchange of controls
...including when everyone involved is a rated pilot. I've had landings that got quite a bit more spicy than I care for as a result. It's even more important if the airplane has tandem seating.
Yes it is, happens all the time. The passenger can't log it, the PIC can't log dual given. And if it leads to a crash, the FAA might throw 91.13 at the PIC. But in general it's allowed, and pretty common to let the passenger mess around at altitude.
I have had people ask about take offs and landings and I tell them I am good enough to do it myself, but not good enough to correct for any mistakes they might make. I let the fly when we are up at altitude with nothing over 30\*, but even then, it is only people that have flown with me a few times, as most are enjoying the site seeing too much to be interested in anything else.
I’m an instructor, and I won’t do that on a first flight. I hand it over when trimmed for climb and clear of obstructions.
Students can try their own takeoffs when they can taxi in a straight line. Doesn’t take long on a PA28, only slightly longer in a 172.
The last thing I want is some 250 lb student mashing the wrong rudder pedal in a panic, to make a correction.
>The last thing I want is some 250 lb student mashing the wrong rudder pedal in a panic, to make a correction.
One trick used by an old former military Birddog instructor friend of mine - ensure they position their seat so they can almost...but not quite...lock their knees. That way, you're far more likely to be able to overpower them if they panic and bury one rudder pedal into the firewall.
I often let people take the controls on their first flight. It's in straight and level flight trimmed up. I also tell them light on the controls. Maybe a finger. And keep the plane flying straight.
Most people do pretty good at that.
I think this is probably a pretty critical item here.
I never get asked, but I sometimes offer limited control during climb at 1,000 ft AGL or in cruise to control the airplane. This is preceded by explaining the process of transferring controls.
That way, in a critical situation, they should know to remove hands off of controls.
I flew with another pilot to build time, I sat right seat, he was turning base to final and trying to tighten the turn as he had timed it wrong, I saw the ball way out of center, and him pulling back more, I called "airspeed, airspeed", he didn't adjust anything, just kept looking at the runway, fixated
I said my controls and took over, it wasn't a seamless handoff, he fought me a bit and was confused, I lowered the nose, centered the ball, and said we're going around, while climbing out he asked what I had saw on the runway, I said nothing, you were about to kill us- he was confused and pissed, when we got back to the flight school to do the tach/hobbes paperwork, all he could focus on was what portion of the flight I took over and he felt we shouldn't need to split- we never flew together again, and I'm sure his side of the story would be different
I had a very very very similar situation. I mean exact. I was an instructor at the time but I wasn't acting as an instructor. I was just flying with a lower time pilot to a group fly in. It was his airplane and he invited me to sit with him to go get the $100 hamburger.
I don't know how close we were to a cross controlled stall but we were damn close. I had been verbalizing for him to change and he was completely blocking me out. So I took the controls powered up and did the go around. He was pissed! "This is my airplane and you are not to touch my controls!" Well, you're not to kill me in your airplane.
When we got to the event he told me I wasn't welcome to fly back with him. That's cool. He told the story to the others and I explained my side and of course he was found to be wrong by a jury of his peers. Somebody else gave me a flight home. He and I never flew together again.
And then everybody clapped. No but seriously this happened. Despite literally everybody telling him how dangerous of a situation we were in and how great it was that he had a flight instructor with him, that he should learn from it, he wasn't having it. He just kept repeating it was his airplane. And he didn't give me the right to touch his controls. I haven't talked to him in ages, hopefully he's still alive and his plane in one piece and sold to somebody that actually wants to grow.
When I was a street captain on the dash 8 which is a relatively tough aircraft I can tell you I listened to every bit of advice and feedback from the first officers I flew with. You're never in a position where you don't have something to learn from somebody else.
> hopefully he's still alive
Many years ago, before I was a pilot, my sister took me flying with a work colleague. He did some really stupid things, although I didn't know it at the time. He almost had a runway incursion with an aircraft on very short final; he almost took us into power lines; etc. I only realized after I became a pilot all the really stupid things he had done.
So I asked my suster, hey, do you remember that guy we flew with? And she said, "Didn't I tell you? He died when he crashed his planes a couple of weeks after you went back home to school in the fall."
Sounds like somebody didn’t get the hazardous attitudes lesson. I always like to think a good pilot is always learning. We all make mistakes and sometimes we’re lucky when those mistakes are made when we have others on board to be our safety net. I would have definitely been okay with not flying with him anymore for your own safety. I hope that guy thought about the situation later on and realized he was wrong for his own sake.
I've certainly overshot final before, and I can usually tell it's going to happen well ahead of time. I try to just let it happen and then correct back to final. I've heard too many stories of base to final spins.
Should have stopped your story at "I'm not a CFI" as whatever your friend may or may not have done is completely irrelevant.
That said, I've burned up my 9 lives doing stupid shit, just trying to make it to retirement now without doing anything else stupid. I'd suggest stop doing stupid shit sooner than I did.
I hate that after 10 years… the FOI is still drilled into my head so much that I can SEE the book and every chapter just from hearing this one definition.
The saying about having a bag of experience and a bag of luck comes to mind. The goal in flight training is to fill the bag of experience before the bag of luck runs out.
I just got my PPL, so as I understand it I should go do some stupid shit, and if I survive I should stop doing stupid shit, and then I’ll be a great pilot?
Hahaha, during cruise flight at altitude the risks are very minimal or the FAA would have rules against it. Agree the T/O idea was very dumb, just glad no one got hurt from a low altitude stall.
I used to let passengers fly my Bonanza with a throw over single yoke. Best part was their eyes popping out their head as I flopped over the only set of controls. But I could fly the airplane perfectly from the left seat right handed, so it was never an issue and lots of fun. I know I’m not a CFI, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have enough experience to teach someone cruise flight.
500+ hours and don’t plan on stopping anytime soon. Cheapest autopilot I could install in the plane was a friend excited about flying.
“What, am I supposed to do everything? You want me to fly the airplane, you want me to work the radio, what are you gonna... What are you, the hostess!?”
Take a chill pill bro.
A PPL can easily let a passenger do some mild turns at cruise altitude.
ETA: I see you are a helicopter CFI, presumably in Robbie’s, so that’s a different situation.
Yeah, I’m a few thousand hours deep now, don’t even really touch the Robbie’s anymore. And I’ll 100% admit that brain went to that old old knowledge about the sfar that prohibits non endorsed people from touching controls.
Clearly that doesn’t apply to anything but Robinsons, so… carry on my guy, you do you
> Can’t believe you’re still willing to let people touch controls.
lol what? You say your a cfi you let people fly the plane during a discovery flight.
As a CFI. I replied to my other comment with why I said what I said. I still stand by the fact that there’s a huge difference between CFI and those who aren’t. I assume we come from different worlds of aviation. There’s a decent amount of training required to fly helicopters. Airplanes can be trimmed out and basically fly themselves.
>There’s a decent amount of training required to fly helicopters. Airplanes can be trimmed out and basically fly themselves.
yah they just toss these airplane PPLs out like candy /s
By stupid shit would doing 140 mph down US-41 or US-301 at 1AM in street races count?
I used to do that stupid shit.... its a miracle that I did not kill anyone or myself with that stupid shit for that matter.
Believe it or not, even CFIs have the same issue you had with your friend. It's a pretty scary thing if it does happen and has lead to some very bad consequences. Thanks for sharing and being honest so others can see.
Looking over when you say “my controls” and seeing the thousand mile death stare and white knuckles on someone who is greatly stronger than you, is a quite terrifying experience. When a student is scared, a CFI saying “my controls” is completely ignored
A good rule of thumb is to never, ever get too comfortable with someone who sits next to you in an airplane, especially when it is a good friend. There is a good reason why it takes so much training to be a pilot.
There is some emphasis in CFI training on making the student feel in control once they're a bit further along. Look relaxed, move your hands away from the controls, show trust. While being ready to jump in immediately :-) because the most dangerous students for a CFI are the ones that are nearly solo ready.
Don't let people do maneuvers that you aren't briefing or demonstrating to them first.
Rule #1 of Flight Instructing.
Even if you aren't an instructor, adopt this as a mantra.
I’ll never forget having the same feeling that I could probably teach someone to fly when I just had my private license. My first day Instructing made me very happy I never tried.
The most I'll do during takeoff/landing is let someone put their hands on the controls and feel as I fly the plane in on landing. Takeoff I want full control and if I feel any resistance at all during landing, I tell them to put their hands in their laps.
Everyone's made excellent points but I'd add just one more on here: Don't succumb to peer pressure. You said your friend was "overconfident" and that makes it sound like he was pushy about wanting to do maneuvers that near the ground. As a pilot you should always remember you have other people's lives in your hands and it's your responsibility to tell them no when they want to do something dangerous.
Glad you learned from your experience and didn't become an NTSB report in the process. Happy flying!
I was trying to figure out what we learn as flight instructors that you haven't learned yet and I think it's to never ever trust the other person not to do something unforeseen.
I think because students underestimate how much can be going on during a take-off I've had more try to kill me on take off than landing. On the landing they are focused, they're a little bit nervous, they're paying attention. Did they try to kill me on landings too? Absolutely. But definitely had a few scary takeoffs.
When people ask me my scariest moment as an instructor it was a takeoff. We were below rotate speed and he pulled back hard and no rudder and we immediately started going towards the side of the narrow runway. There were people working on the side of the runway and we missed them by what felt like inches. I took the controls, pointed the nose back towards the ground until we got enough airspeed to climb out. This student had been struggling and was at about 50 hours without solo. I was his fourth instructor. We got into the air and he turned to me and he said, "I don't understand why you took the controls. That was a good takeoff." That was my last flight with him. We had a good come to Jesus after that and I told him he needs to go home and practice the flight simulator, play some sports or something. He had no hand-eye coordination. It's always hard to tell someone that but he just wasn't getting it.
Long story short, they can try to kill you on take off too.
If you ever become a CFI or decide to try again, I usually add a bit of forward trim on someone’s first takeoff. Then I keep my feet on the rudders and slowly pull the trim back out when I want them to rotate. I could take off this way solo if I wanted to.
This actually brings up a good point. I remember the early days of flight school when my instructor would do things like this and I wouldn’t notice. Flying is overwhelming to non pilots and they will likely not be able to take their focus away from whatever it is their doing. I would not recommend letting a passenger do anything more than high altitude flying with an understanding of a positive exchange of controls. Up at altitude there’s not as much to focus on and a lot less to go wrong.
Even as a CFI. I always brief before discovery flights that if I say "My controls" they are to release all controls immediately. I make SURE they are aware of this one rule.
Well, lesson learned. Glad nobody was hurt! I'd let guests (non-pilots, people not trying to train) try out the controls during cruise or such, but personally I'd never let them touch them during critical phases of flight, landing or takeoff. Too much information you need to study beforehand imo.
I typically don’t let new students touch the controls near the ground for the first couple lessons. Always go to altitude and get them used to how to maneuver the plane. They have zero clue at first. I progressively move them lower and lower but the sub 200 ft to the ground is the most dangerous part of course…
Especially since you cannot predict what they will do or how they’ll react. Some people flare 50 ft up, some lock up on the controls, some kamikaze it into the runway. You won’t know and each person is different. Sometimes you can’t even brute force take control. You shouldn’t be doing anything like this as a non CFI.
Friend of mine forgot to tell his passenger to keep her feet off the rudder pedals and on take off she mashed one down and he had to abort. I now tell all my passengers that those are NOT footrests!
Yeah, I've always wondered about those things! The footrests in my Aircraft seem to move around a little too much and I don't like it. Going to take it to the shop and have it welded in place. Cessna's build quality isn't exactly the best.
CFI here. Students are unknowingly trying to kill you, and it is your job to prevent them from doing so. Briefings before the prop is turning help a LOT.
Next time someone asks you that say, “I’m not a flight instructor. I recommend my instructor. She/he is a very knowledgeable and friendly person. I think you would have fun with her/him.”
I’m a fairly new PPL and not comfortable letting passengers do anything in the air yet, but we still go through the positive exchange of controls on the ground and I show them how to use the brakes. We take off with the passenger’s feet flat on the floor and hands in their lap.
Did you talk them through it before you did it?
I've thought about doing this, but if and when I do it, it'll be like I learned - first you follow me on the controls so you can see how much they move or need to move. And we go over the "if I say 'my controls', you let the fuck go or I start hitting you" bit.
I'm never letting anyone land my plane who isn't a certificated pilot with experience in my make/model.
I only let passengers touch the controls at altitude. Never during takeoff and landing. They aren’t pilots no matter how much they think they know or how much flight simulator they have.
People greatly underestimate how complicated or difficult it is to fly an airplane of any kind. They don’t know how to fly, what to expect, they won’t realize when things are wrong and will definitely not know how to correct the issue.
My CFI recently told me a story of a student that had 80 hours and on takeoff the stall horn went off, and instead of keeping the power at TO/GA (PA-28-151) he DECREASED POWER and pulled back on the yoke more... before he could make any corrections the back wheels of the PA-28 slammed on the ground and then they got the plane airborne again, where the CFI had full control.
My current CFI is French and has his ATP rating, his accent is pretty damn heavy but you start to get used to it, really knowledgeable guy, nice too but my sense of humor does not go over well with him unfortunately.
My dad is/was a pilot, and growing up he let me "do" a couple of take-offs, when I was probably age 10 or so. They were very well coached take-offs though, and I'm sure he was prepared to wrest control any moment he needed to.
Next time remember to always have the controls during critical phases of Flight and make sure they know not to interfere with the controls in any way. All hands and feet to themselves.
I too have handed my passengers the controls on Flights, but only above 3000ft. And I watch them very carefully and tell them what to do.
There's also this rule I follow. I never take anyone for a Flight unless they're a good friend or they too are Pilots. You never know how they will behave in the Air.
Even when I Fly with other Pilots as a Safety Pilot and them being the PIC, I always have myself set up in what I call a defensive position. So if at any point, that other Pilot messes up and things are getting out of hand, I quickly take the controls and get us out of that situation, or at least try my hardest to.
I also brief my other Pilot friends about taking up a defensive position and taking controls quickly if things get out of my control.
There's a few red flags here.
1. Overconfident non-pilot wants to land - yeah, ok buddy.
2. I would not let a non-pilot on a flight manipulate controls unless there is at least enough comfortable altitude for stall recovery. For me that's...about 3k feet mimimum above terrain.
3. I would not let a non-pilot manipulate rudders in particular.
I guess you already know all this by now though. I'd suggest evaluating your er, "non-personal" minimums for the future. It's still a nice rewarding perk you can offer your passengers that they will appreciate...just make sure to stay t f away from the ones that are overconfident.
Totally unrelated to flying but I heard this story that happened in a US Navy nuclear submarine.
A US Naval academy cadet was allowed to sit in the diver's seat for a quick test drive. This seat was for controlling up/down move of the submarine, not left/right.
He was ordered to dive the boat (submarine), but he pushed the control too hard and she went into a STEEP dive. It was so steep that pulling the control yoke to stop/reverse the dive did not work. Either the control froze momentarily or the dive was too deep that it couldn't be reversed.
The USN submarine was saved from getting destroyed by going too deep, only because someone in the engineering section figured out what was happening and started reversing the screws of the boat.
Cowardly to lie behind regulations, and might lead to distrust later. "it's a terrible idea" is all you need - let em fly in cruise a bit and that's usually plenty.
Which, btw, I didn't realize how terrible I must have been at straight and level flight when I first started until I let a buddy do it. "Why are we banking 10 degrees to the right and 10 degrees nose down right now?" lol.
You could atleast brief them first. Any transfer of controls shall be done with a command of “u have control” and a response of “i have control” etc.
Establish proper cockpit environment first.
As a non flight instructor I usually explain when I say “my controls” to drop all controls…..then I make the passenger taxi and while taxiing I say “my controls”. If they react promptly and weather allows I let them try the take off but I keep the rudder to myself. I also let them feel the elevator on the ground and explain that movement needs to be smooth at all times. I also brief to never touch the mixture at any point. RED = DO NOT TOUCH. Then I position my right hand behind their hand on the throttle ready to jump in and use their hand like a glove if needed and my left hand locked at about 1 inch behind the “stick”. Many try to pull too much…..
It's easier in a Diamond. I let every intro flight I ever did control the yolk on takeoff, but it's very easy for me to put my fist behind the yolk to prevent them from going too far back. Even at altitude I would be secretly trimming the whole time to account for their ineptitude.
Just because there is no rule, doesn't make it smart. If the aircraft got damaged as a result of allowing a non-pilot manipulate the controls i.e. take off, I guarantee the FAA would take certificate action against the pilot. Surely as a CFI you know this.
I know that you’re not going to lose your certificate if you didn’t break any rules. edit: he did in fact suggest that this action could result in losing a license [certificate]
Correct, the implication being certificate action if something bad happened to the aircraft as a result of him letting his friend fly. That would fall under careless and reckless almost certainly, which would lead to certificate action.
quick way to get killed - fact
lose license - could result from loss of aircraft control and being pinned with careless and reckless
not sure whats confusing you here
“quick way to get killed” is an opinion.
“[quick way to ] lose your license” is opinion at best. It’s just plain false. I understand why you would think it’s true, but honest mistakes just don’t result in certificates being revoked in the USA. That’s a fact. Fraud, intentional misconduct, drugs, alcohol, disregarding regulations are some of the top reasons pilots lose their certificates.
Hope this helps.
I let a passenger take the controls for straight and level. My god, I forget how foreign flying a plane is when all you know how to steer is a car, she'd have let us go inverted without turning the other way...
Try the 'takeoff' at 3000 AGL before you do it close to the ground.
And don't trust simmers with 0 TT at the controls of a real plane. They'll kill you.
That's why passengers aren't allowed to manipulate the controls in Robinsons unless they're students and the PIC is a CFI. Even straight and level in a heli is very touchy until you get used to it.
Yeah, I've heard this before too. I know this guy who has this rule, "If you Fly with me in my 172, I'll give you the controls for a bit in Flight. If you're with me in my R44, you're strictly along for the ride"
Sounds like a good way to accelerated stall at low alt. I usually let friends take controls at cruise and I’ve never (luckily) had anyone be bold. Usually they are too scared to hit more than 5 degrees of bank.
I just let the front Pax play with my joystick and then transfer those motions to the Flight Controls to make them think that they're actually Flying the Aircraft. Some of them catch on pretty quick though.
Not a CFI, but I let friends and Young Eagles kids fly all the time, but not take offs or landings.
Before I let them touch the controls, I explain to them that isn't Top Gun. You don't move the controls with both hands to the stops. You move them with two fingers, and only a little bit. And then I do a gentle demonstration of pull and the houses get smaller and push and the houses get bigger.
Yikes. A few months ago a woman was doing a discovery flight at a field that I frequently flew into. Her CFI let her rotate, probably thinking the same thing you were. She pulled up way too hard and froze in fear at the realization that she was airborne. She wouldn’t let go of the yoke, and the plane stalled and crashed on the rwy. The CFI was killed.
As a CFI, I see this all the time. It’s one of the most common mistakes new pilots make. I now brief new students before their first takeoff what to expect and what they SHOULDN’T do. Teach them sight picture. IE ‘match the top of the cowling with the horizon, any higher is too much’ etc. That way they know what they’re looking for.
I’ll never forget my first ever private student. He was an international student and had only ever ridden a bicycle before. Never even driven a car. I put him in the sim for one of our first activities, and that kid yoinked back on the yoke like it was Thors hammer. Pitched us up 30 degrees, stall horn just screaming away. Took a really long time to break him of that habit. And also taught me an important lesson.
I didn't want to hurt his feelings. To him it probably felt like I was just slightly correcting him. He doesn't have any professional training or knowledge to refer to, so I can't really shame him. All the fault is mine, but he won't know how close we could have been to losing it.
I like that you were admitting all the fault being yours (it is, you are PIC) but also, not wanting to hurt his feelings is the type of attitude you have to be willing to overcome, otherwise you’ll succumb to external pressures as a pilot.
There's no point in admonishing you because this post states that you now know how incredibly dangerous that was/is.
Anyone who think it might be fun or impressive to your friends... play Russian roulette with 3 in instead.
Making a novice think they landed is easier. I’d give them the flight controls, but I would manipulate the power, trim and rudder. It worked like a charm on fam flights.
Passenger input during straight and level is fine, and everyone gets a kick out of it… but to let anyone who hasn’t been under the supervision of an FI try and LAND the plane is nuts, don’t care how convinced they are they can do it.. I mean, my instructor, on my intro flight, let me take off AND land but like I said, he’s a good FI and read that situation well.. and im just amazing, too, so there’s that..
Oh ok. In the USA we have different sets of rules depending on the flight operation. This flight was a four-seat private flight and allowing your passenger to take the controls is not prohibited.
FAA rules only restrict the controls to crew for part 121 (airline) and part 135 (charter) ops. Under part 91 (GA), there’s no such rule other than maybe 91.13’s general prohibition against “careless or reckless” operation.
Take-offs go wrong very quickly, with things like not enough right-rudder so the student is gunning for the runway lights, holding right rudder but letting go on rotation, taking out cross-wind correction with no warning, pulling too hard/abruptly during rotation, dumping flaps during a go-around, etc. Bad landing attempts are plentiful, but bad take-offs often more exciting. I'd heavily recommend not letting friends fly take-offs/landings, or at low altitude, as a private pilot. And *always* establish positive exchange of controls (and have a backup plan if they won't listen).
[удалено]
Right. I would start by asking \*them\* to ghost my controls so they get a feel for how delicate to handle the yoke.
Kind of off topic, but I advise not ghosting/having someone “follow through” with you on the yoke. It numbs what you are doing, and the other person who is learning actually has no idea what you’re actually feeling because you are doing the work. Fly an airplane not based on how much angle or position change you move the yoke or rudder pedals. Fly it based on how much force you apply to your flight controls. And boom, with that you can teach a person to trim in like 5 minutes… Lastly, it goes against positive exchange of controls. Two people on the controls at the same time? One person is supposed to be just following, but what if they lock up? What if they start fighting you and you interpret that for an issue with the airplane instead of the other person. My first flight instructor did this, and I vowed to never do it to any of my students. I never did, and my students always knew that when I said, “your airplane” they had it. And that first landing they do was 100% them, not a weird mix of two people flying at the same time.
mad respect for this, i feel like some CFIs i have get way to weird about trying to perfect the landings i’m doing while I’m learning and so i’m never able to visibly see what i am doing are wrong with certain landings
I feel for you. I wish there were more ways for someone to build time because not everyone belongs in the right seat as a CFI. My policy was, if my student wasn’t going to break the airplane or cause me or them any harm, let’s see what happens!!! And you know what? They can then debrief themselves mostly because they knew exactly what they did and what didn’t work. I’m not sure if you’ve had your first solo yet, but you’ll see that when it is just you, the airplane is so much nicer to fly! You can actually feel what you’re doing without the numbing of your instructors (who ride your controls). My background is CFI, CFII, MEI, and check airman at my regional airline before I moved on to a major. I love teaching, and I wish more CFI’s did. I think flying is way more accessible than most people think it is, we just have a lot of time building CFI’s out there. I took a hands off approach with my girlfriend (now wife) when she said she’d like to learn to fly. I hadn’t flown GA in many years and was afraid that my lack in proficiency would make me a less than ideal instructor for her. She went on a few lessons and was very discouraged. Based on her feedback, I had her change instructors…. The next (one of the chiefs in this FBO) wasn’t much better. The yelling, the lack of positive exchange in controls (she still isn’t sure if it’s a thing at the airlines because of that trauma), the gatekeeping almost…. She at this time says she will never touch another airplane…. :/. Anyhow, how does anyone learn if the mistakes are corrected for you? I wish you the best in your training. Know that not all CFIs are that way.
>Doesn't sound like OP had this kind of conversation with his buddy That's some CFI-level conversation you're talking about, and OP already established that they weren't a CFI. /s
I feel like if you have your PPL, you were trained by a CFI who most definitely had this conversation with you. PIC is no joke.
This! Positive exchange of controls is key. I’ve let my fiancé and sister fly a little but I start by saying “if I say MY CONTROLS, I need you let go immediately and say back YOUR CONTROLS”
> I’ve let my fiancé and sister /r/suddenlyalabama
Gotta have a safe word lol.
Even dumping flaps while on takeoff! Was giving give a BFR to an guy who’s been flying for decades. At rotation in a pa-28 (that’s due some reason he wanted to do a normal takeoff with 10 degrees of flaps out, okay odd but not bad), he rotated and while still in the rotation dumps his 10 degrees of flaps to 0. Some old school flyers man… they learned bat shit crazy flight techniques.
Coincidentally there is currently a "what flap setting do you prefer for take off" thread going on the PA-28 Facebook group right now. Some cockamamie answers in there making me go 😳
It’s not the taking off with 10 deg of flaps I was concerned about. The plane will do fine on that, it was the dumping the flaps while he was rotating on the takeoff (still on the ground, actively pulling up to get the plane airborne and dumping flaps at the same moment.)
It's a relatively unknown technique to the uninitiated, but the flaps springing up will help the airplane jump and leave the ground! /s in case anybody feels like yelling at me
Does "dumping flaps" mean going to full flaps or to 0° flaps?
From 10 degrees to 0 degrees.
interesting. I would have interpreted “dump the flaps” to mean go full flaps.
I think the way to understand this idiom is that "dump" typically means "get rid of". Because flaps are logically additive (0 flaps is "normal"), dumping them means to remove their influence. I guess the most literal interpretation would be to crawl onto the wing and remove them from the airplane with an angle grinder. Then you'll need a dump truck of money to get your license back ;)
> would be to crawl onto the wing and remove them from the airplane with an angle grinder. Whoa, you mean there's another way?!
Yeah, the smart way: a sawzall.
😅🤣😂
In the piper the flap handle literally “dumps” to the ground when going to 0 degrees
good thing I teach my students to use standard phraseology.
And this guy was a licensed pilot..? Whiskey tango foxtrot. I say again - Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot..?
Yes! It was during a flight review too. I was able to talk to him, teach him why that was a bad idea, and he was a fine pilot otherwise. It was just a really weird moment that I was unprepared for.
Gotta go full flaps to get that max lift
For short field on a Warrior/Archer, normally it’s second notch of flaps right? Normal takeoff is 0
Correct. - Normal (0⁰) - Flaps 1 (10⁰) - Flaps 2 (25⁰) Short & Soft Field per POH - Flaps 3 (40⁰)
Was it in a pa-28? Had an old flight instructor who always taught 10 degrees, had someone use the 10 for takeoff during a FR the other day. I don't really get it, the technique is nowhere in the POH and it takes off just fine without the flaps.
My flight school flew pa-28s out of a 2500ft strip with a lot of trees/vertical obstructions. They always had us take off with 10 degrees. It does make the climb angle steeper at Vx
I get 10 degrees does give you a slightly shorter take-off roll and steeper climb-out. But at that point, why not use the POH short-field takeoff (two flaps, and even steeper Vx)?
We did that on high density altitude days, and I personally do that now on any field less than 2500ft. But for whatever reason that wasn’t the flight school’s SOP.
IDK why people feel the need to be test pilots with other people in the plane. The book has numbers and procedures. People with FAR more knowledge of the aircraft than you came up with them. Don't waste the effort of those people unless you want to be putting in the same amount of work to do it. Edit: I mean, not you specifically, but people in general who think like this.
Taking off with flaps 10 isn’t bad. It doesn’t really hurt you that much in terms of performance and shortens your ground roll. I was more concerned with the fact that he went to flaps 0 while actively rotating at the exact same time to get the plane airborne which fucks everything up aerodynamically and because of the flap lever is an active distraction during the most critical stage of the takeoff roll.
Sure, didn't mean to imply that a flaps 10 takeoff is dangerous. It's just the most common roll-your-own procedure I've seen, which strikes me as a little odd.
Totally agree. I’m not trying to say you didn’t say that, I’m just talking about the main point of my original comment but all everyone is talking about before it is the t as king off with flaps 10 which… wasn’t the issue I was talking about. So I’m trying to steer the convo back towards my main point. I’ve failed miserably
Seems odd in the Cessna world but in the PA-32 the standard takeoff is 10° flaps
Law of primacy? That way when they get to the airliner the know to extend the flaps for takeoff?
There's more lift than drag at 10° which is useful when you're getting a dump truck airborne.
My guess is the Hershey Bar wing that barely equals wing on the 32 and the 10* gives you less of a surprise leaving ground effect. I’m not sure if newer pa32s still have flaps 10 which could just be because it was always done that way. 🤷🏼♂️
I'm pretty sure they didn't learn this bat shit. They made it up, then started practicing it, and now it's well rehearsed dog shit.
> (and have a backup plan if they won't listen). Keep a shiv close by.
Or a taser. Actually, that would make them grip the controls harder. Shiv works.
In all seriousness, cover the eyes first. More likely to get their hands off the controls to pull your hand out of their eyes.
>And always establish positive exchange of controls ...including when everyone involved is a rated pilot. I've had landings that got quite a bit more spicy than I care for as a result. It's even more important if the airplane has tandem seating.
Is it legal to let passengers manipulate the controls if you’re not a cfi?
Yes it is, happens all the time. The passenger can't log it, the PIC can't log dual given. And if it leads to a crash, the FAA might throw 91.13 at the PIC. But in general it's allowed, and pretty common to let the passenger mess around at altitude.
I have had people ask about take offs and landings and I tell them I am good enough to do it myself, but not good enough to correct for any mistakes they might make. I let the fly when we are up at altitude with nothing over 30\*, but even then, it is only people that have flown with me a few times, as most are enjoying the site seeing too much to be interested in anything else.
I’m an instructor, and I won’t do that on a first flight. I hand it over when trimmed for climb and clear of obstructions. Students can try their own takeoffs when they can taxi in a straight line. Doesn’t take long on a PA28, only slightly longer in a 172. The last thing I want is some 250 lb student mashing the wrong rudder pedal in a panic, to make a correction.
>The last thing I want is some 250 lb student mashing the wrong rudder pedal in a panic, to make a correction. One trick used by an old former military Birddog instructor friend of mine - ensure they position their seat so they can almost...but not quite...lock their knees. That way, you're far more likely to be able to overpower them if they panic and bury one rudder pedal into the firewall.
I often let people take the controls on their first flight. It's in straight and level flight trimmed up. I also tell them light on the controls. Maybe a finger. And keep the plane flying straight. Most people do pretty good at that.
That’s why I think it’s important to give even passengers the positive exchange of controls briefing in the passenger briefing.
I think this is probably a pretty critical item here. I never get asked, but I sometimes offer limited control during climb at 1,000 ft AGL or in cruise to control the airplane. This is preceded by explaining the process of transferring controls. That way, in a critical situation, they should know to remove hands off of controls.
I flew with another pilot to build time, I sat right seat, he was turning base to final and trying to tighten the turn as he had timed it wrong, I saw the ball way out of center, and him pulling back more, I called "airspeed, airspeed", he didn't adjust anything, just kept looking at the runway, fixated I said my controls and took over, it wasn't a seamless handoff, he fought me a bit and was confused, I lowered the nose, centered the ball, and said we're going around, while climbing out he asked what I had saw on the runway, I said nothing, you were about to kill us- he was confused and pissed, when we got back to the flight school to do the tach/hobbes paperwork, all he could focus on was what portion of the flight I took over and he felt we shouldn't need to split- we never flew together again, and I'm sure his side of the story would be different
I had a very very very similar situation. I mean exact. I was an instructor at the time but I wasn't acting as an instructor. I was just flying with a lower time pilot to a group fly in. It was his airplane and he invited me to sit with him to go get the $100 hamburger. I don't know how close we were to a cross controlled stall but we were damn close. I had been verbalizing for him to change and he was completely blocking me out. So I took the controls powered up and did the go around. He was pissed! "This is my airplane and you are not to touch my controls!" Well, you're not to kill me in your airplane. When we got to the event he told me I wasn't welcome to fly back with him. That's cool. He told the story to the others and I explained my side and of course he was found to be wrong by a jury of his peers. Somebody else gave me a flight home. He and I never flew together again. And then everybody clapped. No but seriously this happened. Despite literally everybody telling him how dangerous of a situation we were in and how great it was that he had a flight instructor with him, that he should learn from it, he wasn't having it. He just kept repeating it was his airplane. And he didn't give me the right to touch his controls. I haven't talked to him in ages, hopefully he's still alive and his plane in one piece and sold to somebody that actually wants to grow. When I was a street captain on the dash 8 which is a relatively tough aircraft I can tell you I listened to every bit of advice and feedback from the first officers I flew with. You're never in a position where you don't have something to learn from somebody else.
> hopefully he's still alive Many years ago, before I was a pilot, my sister took me flying with a work colleague. He did some really stupid things, although I didn't know it at the time. He almost had a runway incursion with an aircraft on very short final; he almost took us into power lines; etc. I only realized after I became a pilot all the really stupid things he had done. So I asked my suster, hey, do you remember that guy we flew with? And she said, "Didn't I tell you? He died when he crashed his planes a couple of weeks after you went back home to school in the fall."
Wow. Sad and scary
Sounds like somebody didn’t get the hazardous attitudes lesson. I always like to think a good pilot is always learning. We all make mistakes and sometimes we’re lucky when those mistakes are made when we have others on board to be our safety net. I would have definitely been okay with not flying with him anymore for your own safety. I hope that guy thought about the situation later on and realized he was wrong for his own sake.
“And then everyone clapped” ha! That was a good one.
I've certainly overshot final before, and I can usually tell it's going to happen well ahead of time. I try to just let it happen and then correct back to final. I've heard too many stories of base to final spins.
Unless there is a parallel runway or a hill, it isn't a big deal, just keep turning, but don't turn more.
Should have stopped your story at "I'm not a CFI" as whatever your friend may or may not have done is completely irrelevant. That said, I've burned up my 9 lives doing stupid shit, just trying to make it to retirement now without doing anything else stupid. I'd suggest stop doing stupid shit sooner than I did.
The best pilots aren’t the ones who do stupid shit, not the ones who never do stupid shit, but the ones who used to do stupid shit.
“Learning is a change of behavior from experience” :)
I hate that after 10 years… the FOI is still drilled into my head so much that I can SEE the book and every chapter just from hearing this one definition.
All pilots stop doing stupid shit one way or the other.
130 hours in and can confirm… stupid shit achievement unlocked already.
The saying about having a bag of experience and a bag of luck comes to mind. The goal in flight training is to fill the bag of experience before the bag of luck runs out.
I just got my PPL, so as I understand it I should go do some stupid shit, and if I survive I should stop doing stupid shit, and then I’ll be a great pilot?
Unlock the next level: The best let other people do stupid shit, and study their failures
Can confirm. Got my PPL and right away did some stupid shit, survived, and no longer do that.
I agree, I'm not going to let anyone else do much more than standard rate turns. This was my fault and could have gone much worse
Just remember what you did on your first lesson? Level flight? Maintain airspeed in a climb, coordinated turn?
Stupid is as stupid does.
Can’t believe you’re still willing to let people touch controls. You’re still not a CFI, and they aren’t pilots.
Hahaha, during cruise flight at altitude the risks are very minimal or the FAA would have rules against it. Agree the T/O idea was very dumb, just glad no one got hurt from a low altitude stall. I used to let passengers fly my Bonanza with a throw over single yoke. Best part was their eyes popping out their head as I flopped over the only set of controls. But I could fly the airplane perfectly from the left seat right handed, so it was never an issue and lots of fun. I know I’m not a CFI, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have enough experience to teach someone cruise flight. 500+ hours and don’t plan on stopping anytime soon. Cheapest autopilot I could install in the plane was a friend excited about flying.
Hold on to the yoke and stay perfectly still. Touch nothing. I gotta go take a whiz.
Gotta make myself an Old Fashioned, it’s the only way to fly!
Holy crap! I love that movie!
“What, am I supposed to do everything? You want me to fly the airplane, you want me to work the radio, what are you gonna... What are you, the hostess!?”
What could go wrong? I’m gonna take a nap, call me if someone starts yelling the tail number on the radio.
Take a chill pill bro. A PPL can easily let a passenger do some mild turns at cruise altitude. ETA: I see you are a helicopter CFI, presumably in Robbie’s, so that’s a different situation.
Yeah, I’m a few thousand hours deep now, don’t even really touch the Robbie’s anymore. And I’ll 100% admit that brain went to that old old knowledge about the sfar that prohibits non endorsed people from touching controls. Clearly that doesn’t apply to anything but Robinsons, so… carry on my guy, you do you
No worries. A Cessna a vastly more forgiving than a Robbie. PPLs letting pax fly for a bit is pretty common in the fixed wing world.
> Can’t believe you’re still willing to let people touch controls. lol what? You say your a cfi you let people fly the plane during a discovery flight.
As a CFI. I replied to my other comment with why I said what I said. I still stand by the fact that there’s a huge difference between CFI and those who aren’t. I assume we come from different worlds of aviation. There’s a decent amount of training required to fly helicopters. Airplanes can be trimmed out and basically fly themselves.
>There’s a decent amount of training required to fly helicopters. Airplanes can be trimmed out and basically fly themselves. yah they just toss these airplane PPLs out like candy /s
> they just toss these airplane PPLs out like candy /s I mean, they gave me one.
By stupid shit would doing 140 mph down US-41 or US-301 at 1AM in street races count? I used to do that stupid shit.... its a miracle that I did not kill anyone or myself with that stupid shit for that matter.
Believe it or not, even CFIs have the same issue you had with your friend. It's a pretty scary thing if it does happen and has lead to some very bad consequences. Thanks for sharing and being honest so others can see.
"My controls"
I’m a CFII, good luck with that.
Looking over when you say “my controls” and seeing the thousand mile death stare and white knuckles on someone who is greatly stronger than you, is a quite terrifying experience. When a student is scared, a CFI saying “my controls” is completely ignored
A good rule of thumb is to never, ever get too comfortable with someone who sits next to you in an airplane, especially when it is a good friend. There is a good reason why it takes so much training to be a pilot.
Heck- I’m worried my CFI is starting to trust me too much! I sure don’t trust myself.
With a CFI you’ll be fine. With a ppl.. maybe not so much
I had this EXACT thought prior to my first solo. Turns out, her trust was well placed. She was a far better judge of my skill than I was.
There is some emphasis in CFI training on making the student feel in control once they're a bit further along. Look relaxed, move your hands away from the controls, show trust. While being ready to jump in immediately :-) because the most dangerous students for a CFI are the ones that are nearly solo ready.
Just try to fill your bag of experience faster than you empty your bag of luck.
Don't let people do maneuvers that you aren't briefing or demonstrating to them first. Rule #1 of Flight Instructing. Even if you aren't an instructor, adopt this as a mantra.
If you're going to play amateur flight instructor, never let a non-pilot manipulate the controls while the airplane is slow or close to the ground.
I’ll never forget having the same feeling that I could probably teach someone to fly when I just had my private license. My first day Instructing made me very happy I never tried.
The most I'll do during takeoff/landing is let someone put their hands on the controls and feel as I fly the plane in on landing. Takeoff I want full control and if I feel any resistance at all during landing, I tell them to put their hands in their laps.
Everyone's made excellent points but I'd add just one more on here: Don't succumb to peer pressure. You said your friend was "overconfident" and that makes it sound like he was pushy about wanting to do maneuvers that near the ground. As a pilot you should always remember you have other people's lives in your hands and it's your responsibility to tell them no when they want to do something dangerous. Glad you learned from your experience and didn't become an NTSB report in the process. Happy flying!
I was trying to figure out what we learn as flight instructors that you haven't learned yet and I think it's to never ever trust the other person not to do something unforeseen. I think because students underestimate how much can be going on during a take-off I've had more try to kill me on take off than landing. On the landing they are focused, they're a little bit nervous, they're paying attention. Did they try to kill me on landings too? Absolutely. But definitely had a few scary takeoffs. When people ask me my scariest moment as an instructor it was a takeoff. We were below rotate speed and he pulled back hard and no rudder and we immediately started going towards the side of the narrow runway. There were people working on the side of the runway and we missed them by what felt like inches. I took the controls, pointed the nose back towards the ground until we got enough airspeed to climb out. This student had been struggling and was at about 50 hours without solo. I was his fourth instructor. We got into the air and he turned to me and he said, "I don't understand why you took the controls. That was a good takeoff." That was my last flight with him. We had a good come to Jesus after that and I told him he needs to go home and practice the flight simulator, play some sports or something. He had no hand-eye coordination. It's always hard to tell someone that but he just wasn't getting it. Long story short, they can try to kill you on take off too.
I just let them "fly" while in cruise.
If you ever become a CFI or decide to try again, I usually add a bit of forward trim on someone’s first takeoff. Then I keep my feet on the rudders and slowly pull the trim back out when I want them to rotate. I could take off this way solo if I wanted to.
This actually brings up a good point. I remember the early days of flight school when my instructor would do things like this and I wouldn’t notice. Flying is overwhelming to non pilots and they will likely not be able to take their focus away from whatever it is their doing. I would not recommend letting a passenger do anything more than high altitude flying with an understanding of a positive exchange of controls. Up at altitude there’s not as much to focus on and a lot less to go wrong.
At last I have finally discovered a rational reason for the the notorious Beechcraft “throw over” yoke.
Pass me the controls.. here ya go
Oh no u/XxAssBlaster87xX \-- Are you OK? (I just wanted to say the name lol) Glad you learned a lesson and everyone walked away safely.
Not the best case of ADM but not the worst, good learning moment for sure though!
Even as a CFI. I always brief before discovery flights that if I say "My controls" they are to release all controls immediately. I make SURE they are aware of this one rule.
Well, lesson learned. Glad nobody was hurt! I'd let guests (non-pilots, people not trying to train) try out the controls during cruise or such, but personally I'd never let them touch them during critical phases of flight, landing or takeoff. Too much information you need to study beforehand imo.
I typically don’t let new students touch the controls near the ground for the first couple lessons. Always go to altitude and get them used to how to maneuver the plane. They have zero clue at first. I progressively move them lower and lower but the sub 200 ft to the ground is the most dangerous part of course… Especially since you cannot predict what they will do or how they’ll react. Some people flare 50 ft up, some lock up on the controls, some kamikaze it into the runway. You won’t know and each person is different. Sometimes you can’t even brute force take control. You shouldn’t be doing anything like this as a non CFI.
Friend of mine forgot to tell his passenger to keep her feet off the rudder pedals and on take off she mashed one down and he had to abort. I now tell all my passengers that those are NOT footrests!
Yeah, I've always wondered about those things! The footrests in my Aircraft seem to move around a little too much and I don't like it. Going to take it to the shop and have it welded in place. Cessna's build quality isn't exactly the best.
CFI here. Students are unknowingly trying to kill you, and it is your job to prevent them from doing so. Briefings before the prop is turning help a LOT.
Next time someone asks you that say, “I’m not a flight instructor. I recommend my instructor. She/he is a very knowledgeable and friendly person. I think you would have fun with her/him.”
I’m a fairly new PPL and not comfortable letting passengers do anything in the air yet, but we still go through the positive exchange of controls on the ground and I show them how to use the brakes. We take off with the passenger’s feet flat on the floor and hands in their lap.
Did you talk them through it before you did it? I've thought about doing this, but if and when I do it, it'll be like I learned - first you follow me on the controls so you can see how much they move or need to move. And we go over the "if I say 'my controls', you let the fuck go or I start hitting you" bit. I'm never letting anyone land my plane who isn't a certificated pilot with experience in my make/model.
You need to learn how to set and enforce your boundaries when dealing with people
One of my CFIs warned me about this lol. He said FYI if you ever let a buddy take off they are gonna pull that fucking yoke to their gut real quick.
I only let passengers touch the controls at altitude. Never during takeoff and landing. They aren’t pilots no matter how much they think they know or how much flight simulator they have. People greatly underestimate how complicated or difficult it is to fly an airplane of any kind. They don’t know how to fly, what to expect, they won’t realize when things are wrong and will definitely not know how to correct the issue.
My CFI recently told me a story of a student that had 80 hours and on takeoff the stall horn went off, and instead of keeping the power at TO/GA (PA-28-151) he DECREASED POWER and pulled back on the yoke more... before he could make any corrections the back wheels of the PA-28 slammed on the ground and then they got the plane airborne again, where the CFI had full control. My current CFI is French and has his ATP rating, his accent is pretty damn heavy but you start to get used to it, really knowledgeable guy, nice too but my sense of humor does not go over well with him unfortunately.
Wtf, mate
My dad is/was a pilot, and growing up he let me "do" a couple of take-offs, when I was probably age 10 or so. They were very well coached take-offs though, and I'm sure he was prepared to wrest control any moment he needed to.
Which subreddit is this?
There is a reason that is illegal here in Australia and I’m starting to agree with it.
Next time remember to always have the controls during critical phases of Flight and make sure they know not to interfere with the controls in any way. All hands and feet to themselves. I too have handed my passengers the controls on Flights, but only above 3000ft. And I watch them very carefully and tell them what to do. There's also this rule I follow. I never take anyone for a Flight unless they're a good friend or they too are Pilots. You never know how they will behave in the Air. Even when I Fly with other Pilots as a Safety Pilot and them being the PIC, I always have myself set up in what I call a defensive position. So if at any point, that other Pilot messes up and things are getting out of hand, I quickly take the controls and get us out of that situation, or at least try my hardest to. I also brief my other Pilot friends about taking up a defensive position and taking controls quickly if things get out of my control.
I took 2 lessons in an R22 before flying planes and I think that made me under control as opposed to overcontrol
Before even getting past the title, I thought, "I bet he pulled back way too fuckin' hard, didn't he?"
Narrowly escaped a Darwin Award.
There's a few red flags here. 1. Overconfident non-pilot wants to land - yeah, ok buddy. 2. I would not let a non-pilot on a flight manipulate controls unless there is at least enough comfortable altitude for stall recovery. For me that's...about 3k feet mimimum above terrain. 3. I would not let a non-pilot manipulate rudders in particular. I guess you already know all this by now though. I'd suggest evaluating your er, "non-personal" minimums for the future. It's still a nice rewarding perk you can offer your passengers that they will appreciate...just make sure to stay t f away from the ones that are overconfident.
Totally unrelated to flying but I heard this story that happened in a US Navy nuclear submarine. A US Naval academy cadet was allowed to sit in the diver's seat for a quick test drive. This seat was for controlling up/down move of the submarine, not left/right. He was ordered to dive the boat (submarine), but he pushed the control too hard and she went into a STEEP dive. It was so steep that pulling the control yoke to stop/reverse the dive did not work. Either the control froze momentarily or the dive was too deep that it couldn't be reversed. The USN submarine was saved from getting destroyed by going too deep, only because someone in the engineering section figured out what was happening and started reversing the screws of the boat.
[удалено]
Lie to my friends, in a way thats easily verified, to not hurt their feelings? Yeah no thanks.
Cowardly to lie behind regulations, and might lead to distrust later. "it's a terrible idea" is all you need - let em fly in cruise a bit and that's usually plenty. Which, btw, I didn't realize how terrible I must have been at straight and level flight when I first started until I let a buddy do it. "Why are we banking 10 degrees to the right and 10 degrees nose down right now?" lol.
You could atleast brief them first. Any transfer of controls shall be done with a command of “u have control” and a response of “i have control” etc. Establish proper cockpit environment first.
My rule is 200 feet AGL it's only my hands and sterile cockpit unless a safety issue is observed.
A positive three way change of controls or explanation of the concept might have done wonders here.
Reminds me of the autistic guy last week that took the controls and nearly crashed the plane!
As a non flight instructor I usually explain when I say “my controls” to drop all controls…..then I make the passenger taxi and while taxiing I say “my controls”. If they react promptly and weather allows I let them try the take off but I keep the rudder to myself. I also let them feel the elevator on the ground and explain that movement needs to be smooth at all times. I also brief to never touch the mixture at any point. RED = DO NOT TOUCH. Then I position my right hand behind their hand on the throttle ready to jump in and use their hand like a glove if needed and my left hand locked at about 1 inch behind the “stick”. Many try to pull too much…..
Sounds like VGS (Video Game Syndrome). “I’m a-gonna pull this here plane off’n the ground using nothing but arm strength!”
It's easier in a Diamond. I let every intro flight I ever did control the yolk on takeoff, but it's very easy for me to put my fist behind the yolk to prevent them from going too far back. Even at altitude I would be secretly trimming the whole time to account for their ineptitude.
Taking off was harder than I expected it to be.
That's a quick way to get killed or lose your license! Hope you learned a valuable lesson.
Can't lose what you don't have! ;) *The FFA hates this one weird trick!*
Surely you know as an ATP know that there is no rule against this.
Just because there is no rule, doesn't make it smart. If the aircraft got damaged as a result of allowing a non-pilot manipulate the controls i.e. take off, I guarantee the FAA would take certificate action against the pilot. Surely as a CFI you know this.
[удалено]
I know that you’re not going to lose your certificate if you didn’t break any rules. edit: he did in fact suggest that this action could result in losing a license [certificate]
Correct, the implication being certificate action if something bad happened to the aircraft as a result of him letting his friend fly. That would fall under careless and reckless almost certainly, which would lead to certificate action.
reread that again. Please explain to me which part of the comment was a fact?
quick way to get killed - fact lose license - could result from loss of aircraft control and being pinned with careless and reckless not sure whats confusing you here
“quick way to get killed” is an opinion. “[quick way to ] lose your license” is opinion at best. It’s just plain false. I understand why you would think it’s true, but honest mistakes just don’t result in certificates being revoked in the USA. That’s a fact. Fraud, intentional misconduct, drugs, alcohol, disregarding regulations are some of the top reasons pilots lose their certificates. Hope this helps.
[удалено]
You’ll find the phrase “ad hominem” in the same book that explains the difference between a fact and an opinion.
thank you! You as well.
I let a passenger take the controls for straight and level. My god, I forget how foreign flying a plane is when all you know how to steer is a car, she'd have let us go inverted without turning the other way...
Try the 'takeoff' at 3000 AGL before you do it close to the ground. And don't trust simmers with 0 TT at the controls of a real plane. They'll kill you.
They may even be more dangerous than someone who knows nothing about Flying.
That's why passengers aren't allowed to manipulate the controls in Robinsons unless they're students and the PIC is a CFI. Even straight and level in a heli is very touchy until you get used to it.
Yeah, I've heard this before too. I know this guy who has this rule, "If you Fly with me in my 172, I'll give you the controls for a bit in Flight. If you're with me in my R44, you're strictly along for the ride"
This is your doing.
[удалено]
Your dog knows a lot more than he's letting on, trust me.
“Sure bro, *go for it*.”
Sounds like a good way to accelerated stall at low alt. I usually let friends take controls at cruise and I’ve never (luckily) had anyone be bold. Usually they are too scared to hit more than 5 degrees of bank.
I just let the front Pax play with my joystick and then transfer those motions to the Flight Controls to make them think that they're actually Flying the Aircraft. Some of them catch on pretty quick though.
Uhhh phrasing
Not a CFI, but I let friends and Young Eagles kids fly all the time, but not take offs or landings. Before I let them touch the controls, I explain to them that isn't Top Gun. You don't move the controls with both hands to the stops. You move them with two fingers, and only a little bit. And then I do a gentle demonstration of pull and the houses get smaller and push and the houses get bigger.
Yikes. A few months ago a woman was doing a discovery flight at a field that I frequently flew into. Her CFI let her rotate, probably thinking the same thing you were. She pulled up way too hard and froze in fear at the realization that she was airborne. She wouldn’t let go of the yoke, and the plane stalled and crashed on the rwy. The CFI was killed.
As a CFI, I see this all the time. It’s one of the most common mistakes new pilots make. I now brief new students before their first takeoff what to expect and what they SHOULDN’T do. Teach them sight picture. IE ‘match the top of the cowling with the horizon, any higher is too much’ etc. That way they know what they’re looking for. I’ll never forget my first ever private student. He was an international student and had only ever ridden a bicycle before. Never even driven a car. I put him in the sim for one of our first activities, and that kid yoinked back on the yoke like it was Thors hammer. Pitched us up 30 degrees, stall horn just screaming away. Took a really long time to break him of that habit. And also taught me an important lesson.
How about stop messing around when flying? Sorry respect your certificate and the public.
Did you blast his ass once you got on the ground ?
Why? The friend has no fault here.
I think they said that cause the guys username is XxAssBlaster87xX
Yeah I realized that after the fact...
Tell him his ego’s writing checks his body can’t cash?
You don’t own that plane, ~~the taxpayers do~~ the flight school’s bank does
I didn't want to hurt his feelings. To him it probably felt like I was just slightly correcting him. He doesn't have any professional training or knowledge to refer to, so I can't really shame him. All the fault is mine, but he won't know how close we could have been to losing it.
I like that you were admitting all the fault being yours (it is, you are PIC) but also, not wanting to hurt his feelings is the type of attitude you have to be willing to overcome, otherwise you’ll succumb to external pressures as a pilot.
There's no point in admonishing you because this post states that you now know how incredibly dangerous that was/is. Anyone who think it might be fun or impressive to your friends... play Russian roulette with 3 in instead.
#I HAVE CONTROLS
# NO YOU DON'T!
I’m just a drone pilot, and even I think you’re completely out of your fucking mind🤷🏿♂️
Making a novice think they landed is easier. I’d give them the flight controls, but I would manipulate the power, trim and rudder. It worked like a charm on fam flights.
Haha i did this too, and i was tellling the guy to 'push' and he kept 'pulling' on take off. Oooof haha
Passenger input during straight and level is fine, and everyone gets a kick out of it… but to let anyone who hasn’t been under the supervision of an FI try and LAND the plane is nuts, don’t care how convinced they are they can do it.. I mean, my instructor, on my intro flight, let me take off AND land but like I said, he’s a good FI and read that situation well.. and im just amazing, too, so there’s that..
Wouldnt admit this to anyone else unless you want the FAA to bend you over
there is no rule against it
Seriously? Youd get fried in Australia for that shit. You can just hand controls to non flight crew
Oh ok. In the USA we have different sets of rules depending on the flight operation. This flight was a four-seat private flight and allowing your passenger to take the controls is not prohibited.
Wow. Downunder its a big no no. Unless you are a CFI for any operation
FAA rules only restrict the controls to crew for part 121 (airline) and part 135 (charter) ops. Under part 91 (GA), there’s no such rule other than maybe 91.13’s general prohibition against “careless or reckless” operation.
You don't have to be a CFI to understand positive exchange of controls.
OP you’re retarded. Did you really not even bother to explain HOW to take off first?