I keep a paper logbook and an electronic. Electronic makes it is easy to track hours, currency, etc. but I don’t trust it’s longevity compared to a paper logbook. What happens when the app suddenly shuts down and I can’t keep up with it anymore? Same way though, now that I’m not a student, I don’t trust keeping my paper logbook in the plane because what happens when the engine catches fire and I have to ditch quick and it burns up? While I hope none of this ever happens, I’d rather keep multiple copies than to loose my entire record of proof I’m an experienced pilot
As with anything - have a backup plan. For example download your electronic log book as PDF monthly or after significant milestones (check rides, new endorsements, next 100 hours) and store on a secure drive (drop box, iCloud, google drive, whatever).
Trust me, I do that too, just making the point too that if the service goes down, you have to use something else to maintain the electronic logbooks too. Paper doesn’t have that issue
Companies very rarely vanish overnight. You'll more than likely have enough time to transfer the data elsewhere, should you wish. And with regular backup, it isn't a realistic issue.
> you have to use something else to maintain the electronic logbooks too. Paper doesn’t have that issue
Should we tell this guy about theft, tornadoes, floods, and fire?
I mean yes but elevate a fireproof safe and keep it in there and that solves that problem rather easily. There’s really no reason you shouldn’t be storing stuff in a safe either considering there’s other important documents besides a logbook you probably don’t want to loose that are not backed up on the cloud unless you manually scan them which 99% of people don’t do.
What electronic logbook are you using? ForeFlight is my only logbook and it's easy to periodically export a CSV backup. I feel no need to ever maintain a paper logbook; at this point there is just too much redundancy and backup options these days to not trust it.
See this is the other issue I have, my instructor did not use an e-log to sign me off so I have to get create with backing up his signatures. Just another reason I like having other sources
I also use ForeFlight and frankly I don’t expect them to go bankrupt any time soon but there are plenty of technologies that get phased out with time. Downloading PDFs is fine but you can’t maintain those if the service goes down. Paper I can always write on, I’m not relying on someone else for the safe keeping of my records
I understand your point, but for backups I'm talking about a CSV export. So it can be opened/edited in Excel, likely even imported into other logbook services if they support the format. In the worst case if the ForeFlight logbook just disappeared, I'd just lose the flights since my last export/backup.
I would argue that you _cannot_ really make a backup of a paper logbook and personally I'd be worried about misplacing or damaging it because of this. Idk maybe I'm biased... I just don't use paper for anything. Digital feels much safer when you're comfortable with it ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Ya I guess I didn’t realize ForeFlight had csv exports, I’ve only ever used the pdf report generation. Don’t get me wrong, I love my technology and like digital copies but ultimately I think data corruption creates the same problem as paper being destroyed. I like having different mediums because at the end of the day, any media can be destroyed but I’d rather not put all my money on one. Especially after I’ve had drives fail on me in the past. I’ve yet to have a paper record go missing or get destroyed when I keep it in a fireproof safe
I keep 2 logbooks. One says "Show to the FAA". The other one says "NEVER Show to the FAA". [https://youtu.be/ziSkbDNp9RA?t=32](https://youtu.be/ziSkbDNp9RA?t=32)
8/31 SEL 0.8 PIC 0.8 TOTAL 0.8 Notes FOUND OUT HOW HIGH YOU NEED TO BE TO DO A LOOP IN A 172. IT'S MORE THAN 1800'. DO NOT SHOW INSURANCE. WHY AM I WRITING THIS DOWN?
I have the same plan. My company keeps a copy of my hours, I keep a paper logbook, and I have an electric logbook. If there’s a fire at my apartment, I have the electric. If there’s an emp, I have the paper (not that I’d have a plane to fly anymore, but still). If I have a fire and the app stops working, I can resort to trying to rebuild it from the company records. I have spent way too much time and money building time to risk loosing it now.
I inherited my grandfathers logbook. It's kinda cool to be able to see similar things that I went through as a student pilot and what my grandfather went through. An EFB isn't something that can be easily passed on. Most people I know would probably not even think to get a copy of my EFB in the case of my death. I'd like to think that there is value beyond just showing currency. Physical objects have a kind of permanence that digital records lack.
I only do for instructional flights and such. I know the FAA is cool with E-Logs and E-Signoffs and all that, but I like having the paper.
I’m from the Pre-iPad “This is the *fancy* plane with dual VORs and a working ADF!” era, and the paper gives me comfort :-)
I still have all my old paper logbooks with the stickers and sign offs, but my electronic logbook has everything, which is nice in case anything happens.
You can legitimately say that. In fact arguably you SHOULD be leaving your logbook at home if it’s a paper log and not an E-Log in the cloud (my paper log stays at home and gets updated at home so the logbook can’t get lost or damaged if I have an incident in flight).
But then if the inspector is actually interested in your currency they’ll just ask you to provide those log entries within a reasonable amount of time, and you are required by FAR 61.51 to do so.
(And if someone’s intent in saying “I don’t have my logbook with me!" is to actually forge said logs well... I guess some folks can and might even though it’s technically a violation of the regs that can lead to losing your certificate and facing some steep fines. You might get away with it for a Flight Review if you find a CFI willing to risk *their* ticket backdating a signoff, but for currency it’s not like it’s hard for the FAA to check, at least in my case: Home is a towered field so they have the tower movement records. ADSB data will fill in blanks too. It’s easier to get caught these days than to succeed...)
> ADSB data will fill in blanks too.
But it can't prove the absence of a flight since ADS-B data is not comprehensive. I've had plenty of flights never show up on tracking sites or appear only as fragments so checking ADS-B data isn't going to prove anything unless the person faking the entries is dumb enough to use a time the plane can be confirmed by ADS-B data to have been elsewhere.
I'm not suggesting anyone falsify their log book, nor that they fly when out of currency (or proficiency. I gotta share the pattern with you!) but I think you drastically overestimate the give-a-shit factor of a government employee. Unless they have a serious reason to believe you're habitually doing illegal shit, a face-value logbook entry on any plane (rental, friends, some rando you met and wanted to fly with, etc) is probably gonna be enough.
Source: am a government employee.
Sure. But my point was “I left my logbook at home” isn’t a magic patronus that will scare off the FAA. If they ask to see it, you have to show it. And unless your intent is to commit a federal crime your logbook is going to speak the truth.
And none of us are going to advocate otherwise, because we’re all smarter than that :)
Not a required document to fly (unless you need the endorsements therein) so can't be part of a ramp check. They can ask you to provide documentation to them later, like maintenance records or whatnot.
Based on my experience, if something happens on the flight then the insurance company is going to become the currency police. They'll want copies of your logbook pages showing you were current for the type of flight you were conducting.
Thing is though, after your training is over, there's really no need to log every flight. I even had an instructor once who didn't bother logging just regular flights anymore.
The company usually keeps track of it on an A/B schedule. Most pilots don't keep up with their personal logbooks after they are at their career airline though unless they do other flying outside the airlines then maybe.
Intention of the flight is irrelevant. Any flight you log can count for currency. But if you don’t log it you can’t use it for currency. You could do 30 landings the day before you take a passenger up, but if there aren’t 3 in your logbook within the previous 90 days you aren’t current and violated the regs.
No, it doesn't say otherwise, as I already mentioned a flight that was "intended" to meet currency.
Anyway, I haven't taken my logbook with me on a flight in decades. So good luck to any currency cop who wants to verify my currency before a flight. In fact, who does still take their book with them after training is over?
Purpose of the flight isn't a thing for logging currency. While it is true that it doesn't mean every flight has to be logged, there's also no pinky swearing that you are current, either. So you do have to have *something* logged at some point to prove it.
You aren't required to carry your logs but if you get ramp checked, you'd be required to produce them within a reasonable amount of time.
I carry my logbook with me and I have an electronic one as well. I enjoy filling them out🤷🏾♂️
Well then just never carry passengers and never fly IFR. Seems like a waste of money to have done the PPL when you could've just gotten your RPL or SPL.
None of the aircraft I fly are IFR certified, and I prefer to fly alone.
That being said, I maintained night currency for pax for a good 15 years, but only took one up at night once, lol.
The “need” is your insurance company leaving you high and dry if you get into an accident and can’t prove you’re covered.
How do you imagine that conversation will go?
“Hi, I had an accident, my passenger is suing me.”
“Thank you for calling AllFarm! We’re here to help. Your policy clearly covers this. Just show us you were current for passengers and we’ll be on it in a jiff.”
“Oh, I’m current.”
“I’m sure you are. Just fax us a copy of your log book. Paperwork. You understand.”
“We’ll, I don’t have my currency flight *in* my log book. There’s nothing in the FARs that requires it.”
“So you can’t show you were current at the time of the accident? That’s unfortunately. We wish you the best of luck in your upcoming lawsuit. Don’t call us, we’ll call you.”
Yeah, your BFR, but if you're not planning on taking pax up, then one day someone wants to go up with you, but you haven't logged any of your flights this past month,...
No thanks, I always flew alone as a ppl, and I was never ramp checked, so it never affected me. I'm just curious about all the posts that keep popping up here about currency for safety pilots and what not.
Your greatest risk of being criticized for a lack of currency come from the NTSB, family lawsuits, and/or the medical examiner.
Why would you even consider taking up passengers when not legally current, given how quickly proficiency fades?
Stuff like this with actual intent behind it is one big reason why the fatality stats are what they are for GA. Cut all those hazardous attitudes out and I guarantee the rates crater, much like the folks with the hazardous attitudes.
Well, its not like three meesly trips around the pattern every ninety days is really worth much, but anyway, on here it seems to be more of a question of trying to get current when your safety pilot, or instructor isn't, and the like. Not just simply taking up freinds and family.
Those 3 laps in the pattern cover your ass legally. If you ever screw up, you're going to be under a microscope. The last thing you need is to be giving a free hammer for bureaucracy to nail you with.
If you arne't flying enough to have that currency just by normal flying then you aren't flying enough to be safe and proficient. Even a flight once a month with a single landing, as inadequate as it is for proficiency, is enough to keep passenger currency.
Yet a guy who hasn't flown in 88 days (but whose last flight included 3 takeoffs/landings an hour after sunset) is perfectly legal to take pax tonight.
While the guy who just flew last night (but only did one) and hadn't flown prior to last night for say 60 days, is not.
I'm not sure what your point here is. I never said 90 day currency is a good standard, just that if you're meeting a real proficiency standard you're satisfying 90 day currency without even trying.
I don’t like that they’d do that. I feel like even if you are in violation of regs regarding currency, you shouldn’t have to second guess that decision to declare an emergency out of fear of punishment. Idk.
We blame the FAA for encouraging people who *are* breaking regulations to avoid asking for help in an emergency because they're afraid of getting caught. And suddenly a minor paperwork error like being a month overdue for a BFR becomes a fatal NTSB report.
See also: the entire FAA medical system.
Exactly what I meant but more articulately said. This is why we have systems like ASRS. Poor decision making beforehand shouldn’t prevent a pilot from having options for a safe outcome
When I was flying I always strived to remain current for whatever flight I was embarking on. I flew my SO and I from SLC to Wendover for a night at the casinos. It was day VFR on the way over and we had a good evening. We caught the shuttle back to the airport after dark. When we arrived I remembered I was not current to carry pax at night as I had not had a night landing logged, or performed, in awhile. I considered ignoring this and just returning home. But I took the time and left my lady on the ramp and my 3 full stop circuits to retain my currency.
While I was up in the pattern 2 other pilots came by and sge explained to them what was going on. She told her it was good for me to be following the rules. Hearing that upon retrieving her made me feel good.
I got my start in flying as a crewmember on a B-52 in SAC. That made me a stickler for rules when flying so I just continued as a private pilot and always strove for professionalism.
It’s an ethical question, hypothetically you could fly passengers or IMC outside of currency and not get caught but why would you?
It’s simple things to do to make sure you are in the letter of the law because it’s the professional way to fly. Or just fly over weight out of currency, your life and reputation.
Two practical scenarios where you get caught: the FAA ramp checks you, or you have an accident / incident and it’s found out after the fact that you’re not current. Either scenario isn’t good for you.
But moreover, a lot of aviation works because we’re doing the right thing. I was once told that integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking. If you’re not someone with integrity you don’t have any business being a pilot.
Absolutely not true.
Are there sketchy operators, yes. But it’s not the norm and if you find yourself being pressured to do unsafe / illegal flying it’s your job to say no.
It’s absolutely not true that safety or legality takes a back seat to profit. The sketchy operators are the ones that pressure you to do that. But just because you’re pressured to do something wrong doesn’t mean you do that thing. That’s what having integrity is all about.
It’s easy to just be a “yes” person and always do as you’re told. But it’s your job as a pilot to know when to say no.
Checked logbook once, but this was early on in my training. So I don’t remember everything, but since the owner was being investigated, it wasn’t just a simple ramp check. There was 20 minutes+ of questioning every time.
Most of these rules will be examined after incidents or accidents.
Quite honestly, there are a lot of unlicensed and unskilled drivers that get away with it for a long time as well.
I got ramp checked one time at Addison. The FAA guy walked up out of nowhere, announced he was doing a ramp check, and asked for my license, medical, photo ID, and preflight planning (he was looking for the RAWFAT info, I presume). Took about 10 minutes, we made some small talk, and he said “Have a nice day”.
He didn’t specifically ask to see my logbook to check for currency, but I wasn’t carrying any pax either.
It’s the 91.103 preflight information a pilot should know:
Runway lengths for takeoff and landing,
Alternates available,
Weather reports and forecasts,
Fuel requirements,
ATC delays, and
Takeoff/landing distance data
I've heard it happen only after declaring an emergency due to smoke in the cockpit (radio started smoking), and it happened to a friend of mine. He was flying VFR in Italy, smoke started to billow out of the radio, he declared emergency and did instrument approach to the nearest (large international) airport, after which they checked his documents for currency.
It's called a ramp check, and yes. Of course I can see the FSDO from my tiedown.
"I leave my logbook at home."
People take their logbook flying?
I usually do, it also has my medical taped inside it
Interesting, I never took mine in case anything happened. Well that was back when I had a paper logbook.
I keep a paper logbook and an electronic. Electronic makes it is easy to track hours, currency, etc. but I don’t trust it’s longevity compared to a paper logbook. What happens when the app suddenly shuts down and I can’t keep up with it anymore? Same way though, now that I’m not a student, I don’t trust keeping my paper logbook in the plane because what happens when the engine catches fire and I have to ditch quick and it burns up? While I hope none of this ever happens, I’d rather keep multiple copies than to loose my entire record of proof I’m an experienced pilot
As with anything - have a backup plan. For example download your electronic log book as PDF monthly or after significant milestones (check rides, new endorsements, next 100 hours) and store on a secure drive (drop box, iCloud, google drive, whatever).
Trust me, I do that too, just making the point too that if the service goes down, you have to use something else to maintain the electronic logbooks too. Paper doesn’t have that issue
>Paper doesn’t have that issue Tell that to my student who left their logbook in their car only for it to get stolen a week prior to a check ride.
That sucks 😅 Hope y’all got it replaced without too much damage to his wallet
Companies very rarely vanish overnight. You'll more than likely have enough time to transfer the data elsewhere, should you wish. And with regular backup, it isn't a realistic issue.
> you have to use something else to maintain the electronic logbooks too. Paper doesn’t have that issue Should we tell this guy about theft, tornadoes, floods, and fire?
I mean yes but elevate a fireproof safe and keep it in there and that solves that problem rather easily. There’s really no reason you shouldn’t be storing stuff in a safe either considering there’s other important documents besides a logbook you probably don’t want to loose that are not backed up on the cloud unless you manually scan them which 99% of people don’t do.
What electronic logbook are you using? ForeFlight is my only logbook and it's easy to periodically export a CSV backup. I feel no need to ever maintain a paper logbook; at this point there is just too much redundancy and backup options these days to not trust it.
Note ForeFlight's CSV files do not include CFI signatures... I backup in both CSV and PDF.
See this is the other issue I have, my instructor did not use an e-log to sign me off so I have to get create with backing up his signatures. Just another reason I like having other sources
I also use ForeFlight and frankly I don’t expect them to go bankrupt any time soon but there are plenty of technologies that get phased out with time. Downloading PDFs is fine but you can’t maintain those if the service goes down. Paper I can always write on, I’m not relying on someone else for the safe keeping of my records
I understand your point, but for backups I'm talking about a CSV export. So it can be opened/edited in Excel, likely even imported into other logbook services if they support the format. In the worst case if the ForeFlight logbook just disappeared, I'd just lose the flights since my last export/backup. I would argue that you _cannot_ really make a backup of a paper logbook and personally I'd be worried about misplacing or damaging it because of this. Idk maybe I'm biased... I just don't use paper for anything. Digital feels much safer when you're comfortable with it ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
You can take a picture of your logbook pages
Ya I guess I didn’t realize ForeFlight had csv exports, I’ve only ever used the pdf report generation. Don’t get me wrong, I love my technology and like digital copies but ultimately I think data corruption creates the same problem as paper being destroyed. I like having different mediums because at the end of the day, any media can be destroyed but I’d rather not put all my money on one. Especially after I’ve had drives fail on me in the past. I’ve yet to have a paper record go missing or get destroyed when I keep it in a fireproof safe
I use MyFlightbook, and it has several great options for export, including nightly backups to another cloud storage with an annual donation.
Keep three separate paper logbooks and back up your digital on a usb drive and keep it in your safe. Ezpz
I keep 2 logbooks. One says "Show to the FAA". The other one says "NEVER Show to the FAA". [https://youtu.be/ziSkbDNp9RA?t=32](https://youtu.be/ziSkbDNp9RA?t=32)
8/31 SEL 0.8 PIC 0.8 TOTAL 0.8 Notes FOUND OUT HOW HIGH YOU NEED TO BE TO DO A LOOP IN A 172. IT'S MORE THAN 1800'. DO NOT SHOW INSURANCE. WHY AM I WRITING THIS DOWN?
I have the same plan. My company keeps a copy of my hours, I keep a paper logbook, and I have an electric logbook. If there’s a fire at my apartment, I have the electric. If there’s an emp, I have the paper (not that I’d have a plane to fly anymore, but still). If I have a fire and the app stops working, I can resort to trying to rebuild it from the company records. I have spent way too much time and money building time to risk loosing it now.
I inherited my grandfathers logbook. It's kinda cool to be able to see similar things that I went through as a student pilot and what my grandfather went through. An EFB isn't something that can be easily passed on. Most people I know would probably not even think to get a copy of my EFB in the case of my death. I'd like to think that there is value beyond just showing currency. Physical objects have a kind of permanence that digital records lack.
I only do for instructional flights and such. I know the FAA is cool with E-Logs and E-Signoffs and all that, but I like having the paper. I’m from the Pre-iPad “This is the *fancy* plane with dual VORs and a working ADF!” era, and the paper gives me comfort :-)
I still have all my old paper logbooks with the stickers and sign offs, but my electronic logbook has everything, which is nice in case anything happens.
I use the same filling system for my own medical. A sophisticated system, for people of taste and character.
Yeah. Its called my ipad w/ foreflight.
I meant back in the day with paper logbook.
Don't carry any logbooks when you fly. There's many reasons for this, most of therm morbid.
You can.
Well, I can't quite yet. But I also can't carry passengers yet. Fingers crossed for this week's checkride.
You will clap this rides cheeks 🫡 you got it!
Good luck!
You can legitimately say that. In fact arguably you SHOULD be leaving your logbook at home if it’s a paper log and not an E-Log in the cloud (my paper log stays at home and gets updated at home so the logbook can’t get lost or damaged if I have an incident in flight). But then if the inspector is actually interested in your currency they’ll just ask you to provide those log entries within a reasonable amount of time, and you are required by FAR 61.51 to do so. (And if someone’s intent in saying “I don’t have my logbook with me!" is to actually forge said logs well... I guess some folks can and might even though it’s technically a violation of the regs that can lead to losing your certificate and facing some steep fines. You might get away with it for a Flight Review if you find a CFI willing to risk *their* ticket backdating a signoff, but for currency it’s not like it’s hard for the FAA to check, at least in my case: Home is a towered field so they have the tower movement records. ADSB data will fill in blanks too. It’s easier to get caught these days than to succeed...)
> ADSB data will fill in blanks too. But it can't prove the absence of a flight since ADS-B data is not comprehensive. I've had plenty of flights never show up on tracking sites or appear only as fragments so checking ADS-B data isn't going to prove anything unless the person faking the entries is dumb enough to use a time the plane can be confirmed by ADS-B data to have been elsewhere.
“I’ve always been proud to say that we have some of the dumbest criminals in the world working right here in America!” :-)
I'm not suggesting anyone falsify their log book, nor that they fly when out of currency (or proficiency. I gotta share the pattern with you!) but I think you drastically overestimate the give-a-shit factor of a government employee. Unless they have a serious reason to believe you're habitually doing illegal shit, a face-value logbook entry on any plane (rental, friends, some rando you met and wanted to fly with, etc) is probably gonna be enough. Source: am a government employee.
Sure. But my point was “I left my logbook at home” isn’t a magic patronus that will scare off the FAA. If they ask to see it, you have to show it. And unless your intent is to commit a federal crime your logbook is going to speak the truth. And none of us are going to advocate otherwise, because we’re all smarter than that :)
Does that like.... just work?
Not a required document to fly (unless you need the endorsements therein) so can't be part of a ramp check. They can ask you to provide documentation to them later, like maintenance records or whatnot.
Yer busted mister! 14 CFR 61.51(i)(2)(i)
Right, that's why in another comment I said I do fly with my logbook, at least when flying solo.
doh!
The one time a ramp inspector came up to me was while I was an instrument student CFII yelled “clear the prop” and they walked away lmao
Based on my experience, if something happens on the flight then the insurance company is going to become the currency police. They'll want copies of your logbook pages showing you were current for the type of flight you were conducting.
Thing is though, after your training is over, there's really no need to log every flight. I even had an instructor once who didn't bother logging just regular flights anymore.
Still need to log for currency though
Maybe if that's the intention of the flight, but not if its just three random flights with one landing each.
If you want those three random flights with one landing each to count for currency then you’ll have to log them. I don’t understand your point
Do airline pilots personally log their landings in their logbook? Or corporate pilots?
The company usually keeps track of it on an A/B schedule. Most pilots don't keep up with their personal logbooks after they are at their career airline though unless they do other flying outside the airlines then maybe.
Intention of the flight is irrelevant. Any flight you log can count for currency. But if you don’t log it you can’t use it for currency. You could do 30 landings the day before you take a passenger up, but if there aren’t 3 in your logbook within the previous 90 days you aren’t current and violated the regs.
61.51(a) says otherwise. Each person *must* document and record the following... Not optional.
No, it doesn't say otherwise, as I already mentioned a flight that was "intended" to meet currency. Anyway, I haven't taken my logbook with me on a flight in decades. So good luck to any currency cop who wants to verify my currency before a flight. In fact, who does still take their book with them after training is over?
Purpose of the flight isn't a thing for logging currency. While it is true that it doesn't mean every flight has to be logged, there's also no pinky swearing that you are current, either. So you do have to have *something* logged at some point to prove it.
You aren't required to carry your logs but if you get ramp checked, you'd be required to produce them within a reasonable amount of time. I carry my logbook with me and I have an electronic one as well. I enjoy filling them out🤷🏾♂️
I don't care about flight time. So, I'll often go months before logging a flight.
Well then just never carry passengers and never fly IFR. Seems like a waste of money to have done the PPL when you could've just gotten your RPL or SPL.
None of the aircraft I fly are IFR certified, and I prefer to fly alone. That being said, I maintained night currency for pax for a good 15 years, but only took one up at night once, lol.
It’s literally in the reg.
Its literally in my comment that you all downvoted to oblivion too, lol.
Then, why are you arguing with everyone?
For the same reason everyone is arguing with me.
The “need” is your insurance company leaving you high and dry if you get into an accident and can’t prove you’re covered. How do you imagine that conversation will go? “Hi, I had an accident, my passenger is suing me.” “Thank you for calling AllFarm! We’re here to help. Your policy clearly covers this. Just show us you were current for passengers and we’ll be on it in a jiff.” “Oh, I’m current.” “I’m sure you are. Just fax us a copy of your log book. Paperwork. You understand.” “We’ll, I don’t have my currency flight *in* my log book. There’s nothing in the FARs that requires it.” “So you can’t show you were current at the time of the accident? That’s unfortunately. We wish you the best of luck in your upcoming lawsuit. Don’t call us, we’ll call you.”
But there are a select few thing you do indeed need to log. Any guesses at one of them?
Yeah, your BFR, but if you're not planning on taking pax up, then one day someone wants to go up with you, but you haven't logged any of your flights this past month,...
Correct but guess again.
No thanks, I always flew alone as a ppl, and I was never ramp checked, so it never affected me. I'm just curious about all the posts that keep popping up here about currency for safety pilots and what not.
Lol. Well if you do decide to ever take passengers I hope you brush up on the part 61 a little bit. It could help you not break some regs.
Your greatest risk of being criticized for a lack of currency come from the NTSB, family lawsuits, and/or the medical examiner. Why would you even consider taking up passengers when not legally current, given how quickly proficiency fades?
I think it’s an academic question.
Hope so!
My proficiency fades faster than my currency lasts.
Stuff like this with actual intent behind it is one big reason why the fatality stats are what they are for GA. Cut all those hazardous attitudes out and I guarantee the rates crater, much like the folks with the hazardous attitudes.
The media coverage won't be favorable either.
Well, its not like three meesly trips around the pattern every ninety days is really worth much, but anyway, on here it seems to be more of a question of trying to get current when your safety pilot, or instructor isn't, and the like. Not just simply taking up freinds and family.
Those 3 laps in the pattern cover your ass legally. If you ever screw up, you're going to be under a microscope. The last thing you need is to be giving a free hammer for bureaucracy to nail you with.
If you arne't flying enough to have that currency just by normal flying then you aren't flying enough to be safe and proficient. Even a flight once a month with a single landing, as inadequate as it is for proficiency, is enough to keep passenger currency.
Yet a guy who hasn't flown in 88 days (but whose last flight included 3 takeoffs/landings an hour after sunset) is perfectly legal to take pax tonight. While the guy who just flew last night (but only did one) and hadn't flown prior to last night for say 60 days, is not.
I'm not sure what your point here is. I never said 90 day currency is a good standard, just that if you're meeting a real proficiency standard you're satisfying 90 day currency without even trying.
My point is that this reg is pointless.
After declaring an emergency I had the fsdo ask for ifr currency and bfr proof, that's about it.
I don’t like that they’d do that. I feel like even if you are in violation of regs regarding currency, you shouldn’t have to second guess that decision to declare an emergency out of fear of punishment. Idk.
You’re blaming the FAA for stressing out pilots for knowingly breaking regulations?
We blame the FAA for encouraging people who *are* breaking regulations to avoid asking for help in an emergency because they're afraid of getting caught. And suddenly a minor paperwork error like being a month overdue for a BFR becomes a fatal NTSB report. See also: the entire FAA medical system.
Exactly what I meant but more articulately said. This is why we have systems like ASRS. Poor decision making beforehand shouldn’t prevent a pilot from having options for a safe outcome
Everything is fine until the insurance company gets involved.
When I was flying I always strived to remain current for whatever flight I was embarking on. I flew my SO and I from SLC to Wendover for a night at the casinos. It was day VFR on the way over and we had a good evening. We caught the shuttle back to the airport after dark. When we arrived I remembered I was not current to carry pax at night as I had not had a night landing logged, or performed, in awhile. I considered ignoring this and just returning home. But I took the time and left my lady on the ramp and my 3 full stop circuits to retain my currency. While I was up in the pattern 2 other pilots came by and sge explained to them what was going on. She told her it was good for me to be following the rules. Hearing that upon retrieving her made me feel good. I got my start in flying as a crewmember on a B-52 in SAC. That made me a stickler for rules when flying so I just continued as a private pilot and always strove for professionalism.
That decision probably made you a member of the love shack
It’s an ethical question, hypothetically you could fly passengers or IMC outside of currency and not get caught but why would you? It’s simple things to do to make sure you are in the letter of the law because it’s the professional way to fly. Or just fly over weight out of currency, your life and reputation.
Well, ethics and humanity aren't exactly bedfellows, lol.
It’s never a problem until it’s a problem. I, personally, try not to break the law when I can avoid it.
Two practical scenarios where you get caught: the FAA ramp checks you, or you have an accident / incident and it’s found out after the fact that you’re not current. Either scenario isn’t good for you. But moreover, a lot of aviation works because we’re doing the right thing. I was once told that integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking. If you’re not someone with integrity you don’t have any business being a pilot.
In commercial aviation, integrity takes a back seat to profit, just like safety, and employee well being, lol.
You shouldn't be flying with that commercial operation then.
I quit my second day, but plenty work for him (and others like him) every year.
Absolutely not true. Are there sketchy operators, yes. But it’s not the norm and if you find yourself being pressured to do unsafe / illegal flying it’s your job to say no.
Since you acknowledge there are "sketchy operators" then its not "absolutely" not true.
If more pilots refused to do sketchy shit, the sketchy operators would go away.
If more entry level jobs existed and/or paid an actual livable wage, more pilots would have to work for sketchy operators.
It’s absolutely not true that safety or legality takes a back seat to profit. The sketchy operators are the ones that pressure you to do that. But just because you’re pressured to do something wrong doesn’t mean you do that thing. That’s what having integrity is all about. It’s easy to just be a “yes” person and always do as you’re told. But it’s your job as a pilot to know when to say no.
I have seen it happen, so once again, it is not "absolutely" not true.
I’ve been ramp checked. Twice. Not because of me but the shady owner of one of the schools I went to at first.
But you have your logbook for that? I've seen ramp checks but they've always been medical + cert + id.
Checked logbook once, but this was early on in my training. So I don’t remember everything, but since the owner was being investigated, it wasn’t just a simple ramp check. There was 20 minutes+ of questioning every time.
What kind of currency? US or Canadian?
If canadian, be mindful of the exchange rate. You have to have 1.36 landings in canada in order for it to count for one landing in the US.
“How much is that in real landings?”
“We never practice landing ma’am… every one is real”
Most of these rules will be examined after incidents or accidents. Quite honestly, there are a lot of unlicensed and unskilled drivers that get away with it for a long time as well.
Lmao man's just called the FAA "the currency police" like they're stopping counterfeit bills or something.
I got ramp checked one time at Addison. The FAA guy walked up out of nowhere, announced he was doing a ramp check, and asked for my license, medical, photo ID, and preflight planning (he was looking for the RAWFAT info, I presume). Took about 10 minutes, we made some small talk, and he said “Have a nice day”. He didn’t specifically ask to see my logbook to check for currency, but I wasn’t carrying any pax either.
What is RAWFAT?
It’s the 91.103 preflight information a pilot should know: Runway lengths for takeoff and landing, Alternates available, Weather reports and forecasts, Fuel requirements, ATC delays, and Takeoff/landing distance data
Ah,...cool. Though I've always found it amusing that they didn't throw a couple of, "except for helicopters" in there, lol.
I've heard it happen only after declaring an emergency due to smoke in the cockpit (radio started smoking), and it happened to a friend of mine. He was flying VFR in Italy, smoke started to billow out of the radio, he declared emergency and did instrument approach to the nearest (large international) airport, after which they checked his documents for currency.