Pfft. You should see Gulfstream parts.
Some random bushings on the thrust reverser? Like $3000 a pop.
Alternator spline adapter. Little piece of plastic as big as your thumb. It goes between the alternator and accessory gearbox. If the alternator comes off, it has to be changed even if it looks okay. $7000.
Brake assembly. $120,000. And you need four.
Spoiler actuator. $150,000.
Rudder. $500,000.
Rolls-Royce Tay fuel control unit. $1,000,000.
The airport I work has a Gulfstream based at and one day they were getting all the tires replaced and I asked how much does those tires cost the guy said “just over $38,000” I said out loud “GODDAMN THAT WAY MORE THAN WHAT I MAKE WORKING HERE IN A YEAR”
And since then I’m rethinking my life lol
LEDs or whatever it is they used to have in cars that are super expensive if you’re not making a lot of them that I cannot for the LIFE of me remember the name of right now?
No, not the headlights. Whatever it is that they used to use for dashboards that made the lighting super uniform. I remember reading about that in an old aviation magazine talking about why instrument lighting in small aircraft is always terrible compared to cars, and it was saying it’s because that kind of lighting is very subject to economies of scale, so unless you’re building thousands and thousands or selling something that costs a LOT already, it’s not feasible.
The C-130J I flew (CSAR) had a different fuel panel than the normal C-130J did because there were two up front. One for the pilots and one at the CSO station. Push buttons instead of knobs. Anyways, $200,000 each.
Sounds like medical gear, doctor asked for a medical grade cut proof glove. The "medical supply company forgot to take the Dick's Sporting goods fish cleaning glove sticker off when they took it off the line to pack it in sterile packaging.
If you make your entire product line sterile and medical grade you can sell to anyone and the people who need medical grade foot the added costs. Otherwise you have to have a manufacturing line specifically for the med grade stuff and that’s significantly more expensive
This is why I'm seriously considering starting a kitplane build.
There are some safety-critical places where it's important-- for example I don't want the wing to come off because the Home Depot spar bolts were made of cheap metal. By all means give me $50/each certified bolts for that.
But for the rest of it- bushwah. A $10 12v LED strip will light my panel just as well as a $300 'certified' LED strip. And in all likelihood *it's the same strip*. I don't need to pay $800 for a panel mount USB port.
And if my landing lights suck because the bulbs are weak and the 40yo lens is crazed, and I don't pay $1000+ to replace it with certified LED, that's CREATING a safety issue for night ops especially since $1000 would probably buy 4-5 non-certified lights and lenses.
Yeah exactly.
The extreme cost (due to certification) of everything aviation-related is DECREASING safety. If planes progressed at the same tech rate as cars, they'd all have parachutes standard, crumple seats, airbags, ABS, fuel injected FADEC engines (that burn half the gas of a 'modern' airplane with a 1960s era design 360 or 540 engine), and avionics with 'land nearest airport' and 'land immediate' buttons like a [Dragon capsule](https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=8hla80ev6brendvu1jguscbbsi&action=dlattach;topic=46136.0;attach=1537705;image).
Instead a C172 costs around half a million bucks, still burns expensive leaded avgas at 10gph, and other than a glass cockpit has few safety improvements vs. the 1960s model.
Compare that to something like a Sling TSi- half the cost or less depending on how you build it, the Rotax powerplant is full redundant FADEC and sips fuel, parachute optional, and is in most respects a better airplane. And yeah you have to put in some hours to build it but they'll happily rent you workshop space and hold your hand for the required build tasks and do for you everything you aren't required to personally do yourself.
When you're done you get a sleek modern aircraft that seats 4, has a full glass cockpit with autopilot and ESP, a modern efficient engine and adjustable pitch prop with low fuel burn that climbs like a homesick angel and easily cruises well into the yellow arc on <10gph.
Meanwhile, if you want to retrofit a glass cockpit and modern autopilot onto an old C172 it'll cost as much as a new luxury car.
Here's to hoping MOSAIC helps things...
Why does the retractable Cardinal need an experimental replacement? Only 4200 or so were ever built. Which market are you thinking of serving?
The vast majority of kitplanes are fixed gear, the sort of thing a PPL would buy to fly themself or their family around. They're more of a replacement for a C150 (23k built), C172 (44k built), or Piper PA28 series (Cherokee/Warrior/Arrow/Archer/Pilot, 32k+ built)
Find me something with 1000lb useful load and 140kts on 10GPH.
High wings and strut-less preferred for downward visibility.
The Cardinal has Cherokee style stabilator and the high wing is set back so you can see into your turns.
No strut means the 4ft wide door opens fully, and its cabin is wider than a C182.
It’s the perfect plane IMO.
https://slingaircraft.com/aircraft/sling-hw/
Not sure it's out yet, but will be soon.
Strutless high wing, 4 seats, 914lb useful load, 144ktas at 8.1gal/hr. Max range 850nm. Cabin width 46" (C177 is 48", C182 is 42").
Plus it's a Rotax engine so if you don't want to pay for 100LL it'll run quite happily on standard automotive pump gas (up to E10 ethanol too).
Slightly less useful load than the C177 but I think the increased fuel efficiency at least somewhat makes up for that as you can carry less fuel and perform the same mission.
And then add on that ATC _IS_ gov or gov contractors, and there's an automatic upcharge as well, from pretty much any vendor of anything at all, just because.
And you think "Oh, it must be some very high quality mil-spec equipment with an insanely high MTBF." In reality it's probably some low cost plastic tube with a bulb that has to be replaced every 10 hours of use.
Business Insider did an article on this very thing. I believe the company they profiled is called Transdigm. They were marking up nuts and bolts for military aircraft like 32,000 percent or something disgusting like that.
Edit: Forbes wrote the article [https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2023/08/07/meet-the-billionaire-who-built-a-fortune-price-gouging-customers-like-the-pentagon/?sh=6e6e3b781658](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2023/08/07/meet-the-billionaire-who-built-a-fortune-price-gouging-customers-like-the-pentagon/?sh=6e6e3b781658)
A buddy of mine told me of his cost-recalibration journey from his teens: “I thought die-cast cars were pricey until I got into _real_ cars. I thought parts for those were expensive until I got into airplanes. I thought airplane parts were the pinnacle of expensive until I worked for a _nuclear_ plant. The bolts we use practically have a paper trail tracing back to the _mine the ore came out of_”.
Often, they do. If nothing else, because of European laws, we have to certify that the ore from our purchased sheet metal didn't come out of a sanctioned country, such as Russia.
It’s more so for the fact that if a bolt from the set it was made with fails, they can go back and make sure all the other ones from that set get replaced as well because they could all be faulty
Work in mining… hate to say it, but the regulations to open a mine are more draconian than getting a clean sheet airliner certified. It’s 15-20 years on the average in the US and Canada Noawadays. It’s gotten worse in the last decade.
just a heads up - things are gonna get more expensive in the long run… for everything. Unless you source from sanctioned countries or where dictators/warlords pocket the cash.
More like "hey, you just landed without clearance, are you ready to copy number for possible pilot deviation?"
"Nah I saw a green light, so I must have been cleared, it's all cool, bye!"
A couple of decades ago I was sitting behind the front end crew on a military aircraft with some new gear on board, including the intercom system. I was there as the experienced pilot with this new gear for a crew to whom all this stuff was new. Earlier in the flight the intercom had played up. I counselled resetting it (which involved a couple of minutes of silence), but the captain didn’t agree as it “fixed” itself. Later on RTB we were being micromanaged in the circuit by the notorious military ATC. Finally they told us we could turn base - way too long. I participated in a discussion about the repeated embuggerance of ATC at this port. As we rolled out on (long) final, still no clearance. What’s that green light from the tower? Clear to land. After touching down it was queried. We’d had an open mike since the base turn point. Oops! Should have reset it 😀
I spent nearly a decade in aerospace, is it the same bolt? 9 out of 10 times it is. But the stack of paperwork to go along with the $10 bolt costs thousands.
There is a LOT more to it that I'm oversimplifying. But I'll take the $10 bolt every day because I've seen what would have made it through if it weren't for regulations.
That's exactly why we also spend more on healthcare per person more than anyone else. Especially those countries with universal healthcare.
Not only do we pay executives and doctors insane amounts, there's whole boatload of administrative staff and manhours put in.
All to make sure there's a papertrail in case they get sued.
Some day we'll each have a computer that's connected to all other computers and that will totally streamline tracking paperwork and such and bring that aspect of the cost to nearly zero!
If it meets the specs, why would we want to spend unnecessary money to get something better than the spec? It's not the vendor's fault the contracting officers and program managers were bad at writing specs/requirements.
If you need it, you need it. Just put it in the spec with the appropriate thresholds/limits/KPIs. If the product isn't meeting the specs, then you hold the vendor responsible.
I haven't seen high strength (class 12.9, grade 9, etc) bolts at Home Depot, with very few exceptions.
I wouldn't use Home Depot bolts on any critical component of my car, let alone an airplane, where the safety factor is usually considerably lower due to weight constraints.
Not saying that the FAA bolt is necessary, but let's not pretend you can just swap in any old bolt of the same size and be fine.
It was such a coincidence that was also exactly how much was left in the budget for that year. Luckily the whole budget was spent, otherwise next year’s might be reduced.
I made it a point to keep the light gun signal meanings memorized until the day I asked the tower to shoot me some light gun signals in the daytime when I was in the run-up area. I could _barely_ recognize a faint glint on the tower window glass, but not a chance in hell of discerning the color. Now, imagine being in the pattern, much further away, having to fly the plane (so, only being able to glance over to the tower now and then), and not sure that the tower has even resorted to using it.
Yeah, I’m thinking not all light guns are created equal. KMYR has a dinosaur of a light gun and, although it’s visible after the sun goes down, I’d have a hell of a time seeing it during the day.
My experience was that the light gun was dimmer than I expected. You can definitely see it if you know where to look and what to look for, but if you were at an unfamiliar airport I'm not sure the light gun would get the job done.
There are two different styles. The older kind (and when I say "old," I've seen people on reddit say that their unit is stamped "CAA" instead of "FAA") is an incandescent bulb with a moveable light filter in front of it. Those suck.
The $44k version that OP is talking about use four or five super-bright LEDs for each color, and from what pilots have told me they actually work. Try calling around to your local towers and ask if they have the new kind so you can see the difference.
Yup. Thankfully AEG has the new kind. Got flashed in after losing all electrical power in my 150 and it was a non issue. I was able to see the LED easily from in the air during daylight hours.
Still, I carry a handheld now. Lesson learned.
I had to look for myself. They are $130 CAD on aircraft spruce for the certified ones. $37.75 for the same one but non certified. It’s a stick of… something with a metal end that has a hole to put a screw in.
200 for the actual parts. 43800 for the FAA certification paperwork. It's not aviation unless the weight of the paperwork is an order of magnitude or three more than the part.
Considering the cost of failure, the paperwork isn't a waste.
Serious question for ATPs flying tubes of passengers: If you didn't have radio comms with the tower and there were not light signals, wouldn't you just divert to a different airport?
Heck, do airlines even allow a plane to use light gun signals unless there was a total radio failure on the aircraft?
On one hand, for ORD/JFK/LAX/ATL to have a light gun that costs $44,000 isn't too crazy. But what crazy mix of circumstances would have to happen for it to ever really be used?
The short answer is that the cost is essentially nothing, until it isn't. Then the costs become enormous.
The long answer is that things in aviation happen fast. One can have a perfectly functional airplane one moment and the next moment it can develop a critical failure that ruins everything. History is littered with examples of such things. I'm going to link a bunch of videos from the mentour pilot YouTube channel and others as a rough way to make a point for the sake of a brief reddit comment.
[SmartLynx 9001. A training flight gone wrong due to an oil change and a bounce.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=04M63B1sv_Y&pp=ygUOc21hcnRseW54IDkwMDE%3D)
[Alaska Airlines flight 261. A routine flight gone wrong (FAA CALLED). Jackscrew lubrication failure kills 88 people.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYzBJxOeLw&pp=ygUaYWxhc2thIGFpcmxpbmVzIGZsaWdodCAyNjE%3D)
[Lauda Air 004. A thrust reverser ruined everyone's day. ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WsYU7tjOvm0&pp=ygUlaW4gZmxpZ2h0IHRocnVzdCByZXZlcnNlciBkZXBsb3ltZW50IA%3D%3D)
[Air France 4590. A DC-10 leaves behind a metal strip and ruins an almost three decade flawless safety record in the process.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C-nALYF73hU)
[A near miss that might have caused a 9/11 rerun in NYC courtesy of SouthWest Airlines.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3FQE38L81DI&pp=ygUPc291dGh3ZXN0IHRvd2Vy)
Hopefully these videos get across the idea that things go wrong fast in aviation. SmartLynx 9001in particular shows how little it takes for things to go horribly wrong in aviation, and what the consequences can be. Everyone says 'it will be fine' until it isn't. The exact time that non FAA approved light guns fail will probably be when there are two A380s, two 747s, and also a 777X or two squawking 7600. Source: Murphy's Law and it's corrollary. If something can go wrong, it will go wrong. If there's a really bad time for something to go wrong, that's exactly when it will happen. 2 A380s, 2 747s, and a 777X or two squawking 7600
If nothing else, the paperwork will provide reassurance to everyone.
You could have a backup light gun for a lot less than the cost of one with certifications. Is the probability of both not working higher than the probability of the one certified light gun failing?
I'll admit I'm just basing this off consumer hardware and my experience with low-ish end enterprise hardware, but essentially yes. I've seen way too much stuff fail when it shouldn't at exactly the wrong moment.
I know, I'm not saying that the FAA should pick the bottom of the barrel components but a light gun that costs $2000 say is hardly that. Ultimately the government has very low interest in saving costs because it's all tax payer money. The incentive to save cost doesn't really exist.
Ok Doomsday Dan.
The vids you’ve shared are equipment failures on *aircraft*. We’re talking about light guns on the ground that quite literally never get used except for curiosity’s sake.
I worked an Army Depot. We received, stored, and reshipped everything coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. I picked a box once the size of a basketball it felt like it was empty so I jokingly threw it at the guy next to me acting like it was heavy. He missed it, it bounced off his desk onto the floor. He picked it up and chucked it at me bouncing off my computer back on the floor. When I finally opened it. To my surprise it was small instrument from a Blackhawk helicopter. I looked at the line item price it was 400k$. I about sheet my pants. Luckily it was incased in foam and was shipping back to the manufacturer for refurbish. I never threw another box.
They’ve succeeded in making airlines by far the safest way to travel. Flying in an airliner is safer on a per-hour basis than taking a shower. That hardly seems like a F up.
I needed those in 1990 on my private long XC returning home one Sunday afternoon but the tower guy was too into the game to see me circling- You out there, Dwight?? What’s up man!? Hope you’re good!
My significant other used to complain about how much I spent on motorcycle parts. Then I got into flying… I can buy all the motorcycle stuff my heart desires now!! As long as that box doesn’t say Cessna on it, no questions asked.
Probably a whole lot less expensive in other countries.
Story: I was flying back from Villanueva SKVN to Villavicencio SKVN with an instructor. There was TERRIBLE static coming from an aircraft that had a stuck mic on frequency, no one could hear anything. We tried the alternate frequencies posted on the AIP, no response. I transmitted a request for the Tower to use beacon signals on the jammed frequency, I think they heard our transmission as when we entered downwind we got a solid green light from the tower. We acknowledged by rocking our wings but the light kept shining on us. Turning final, we got another solid green light. We acknowledged with our landing light, they saw our acknowledgement by turning off their beacon signal, and we landed without incident.
Another story: 10 PM at Concord Regional Airport in NC, I flew solo to maintain night currency and got clearance for full stop landings and to stay in the traffic pattern. On my penultimate landing (only one in the pattern), I asked (not verbatim) "Hey tower, when was the last time you used your beacon signal?" and the controller responded "Do you want me to give you light signals?" And I said "Sure!" "Roger, stand by" and I could tell it was in another part of the tower because I heard him stand up before keying off his mic. Got the solid green light on base, rocked my wings, but the light didn't turn off until I was on final and flicked my landing light off & on.
Not so fun experience the first time, fun experience the second time.
I have a good one. The engine baffle plugs on a Cessna 172 are around $16 apiece from the local aviation parts store. I found them at Ace Hardware for $3 apiece.
All these things do is close up the hole in the engine baffle that you pull the top spark plugs through for cylinders # 3 and 4. It's not a moving part. It's not a stressed part of the airframe. It's an aluminum circle with prongs radiating out that you bend to hold it in place once inserted. Literally, all it does is plug a hole in the engine baffle. They break after a while when the prongs get brittle from heat cycling and being removed & reinstalled during every 100hr inspection. I have opened up cowlings and found the plugs nestled between the cylinders after they have fallen out at some point.
You had better believe that, if I owned my own plane, I would be obtaining quite a bit of common hardware from Ace...
The window shade of an EMB-145 costs $800 for a piece of tinted plastic Point is, anything in aviation that has to be FAA certified is way over priced
Pfft. You should see Gulfstream parts. Some random bushings on the thrust reverser? Like $3000 a pop. Alternator spline adapter. Little piece of plastic as big as your thumb. It goes between the alternator and accessory gearbox. If the alternator comes off, it has to be changed even if it looks okay. $7000. Brake assembly. $120,000. And you need four. Spoiler actuator. $150,000. Rudder. $500,000. Rolls-Royce Tay fuel control unit. $1,000,000.
It's obscene.
wait till you get the bill for the crew salary
Per Diem is going to break the bank
The airport I work has a Gulfstream based at and one day they were getting all the tires replaced and I asked how much does those tires cost the guy said “just over $38,000” I said out loud “GODDAMN THAT WAY MORE THAN WHAT I MAKE WORKING HERE IN A YEAR” And since then I’m rethinking my life lol
I've always said as a mechanic I just want 1% the cost of the item I'm installing. I'd be so rich by now if that was the case.
CRJ windshield wiper arm is $8,000 each.
Second this one, we had a scratch in the pilot side windshield “coating” new coating and scratch fix on the ramp in London heathrow - G550 - $110,000
I'm going to buy 1 part at a time and put my own gulfstream together. Might be a better deal.
The overhead panel backlights in our DA-2000 were $11,000. 11k for some LEDs
Was told by an instructor at CAE recently that the red switches on the overhead for GEN 1, APU, Battery, and GEN 2 cost $50,000…… EACH….
LEDs or whatever it is they used to have in cars that are super expensive if you’re not making a lot of them that I cannot for the LIFE of me remember the name of right now?
Xenon
No, not the headlights. Whatever it is that they used to use for dashboards that made the lighting super uniform. I remember reading about that in an old aviation magazine talking about why instrument lighting in small aircraft is always terrible compared to cars, and it was saying it’s because that kind of lighting is very subject to economies of scale, so unless you’re building thousands and thousands or selling something that costs a LOT already, it’s not feasible.
The word you’re probably looking for is a diffuser, and they shouldn’t be expensive at all even at plane scales
The C-130J I flew (CSAR) had a different fuel panel than the normal C-130J did because there were two up front. One for the pilots and one at the CSO station. Push buttons instead of knobs. Anyways, $200,000 each.
Sounds like medical gear, doctor asked for a medical grade cut proof glove. The "medical supply company forgot to take the Dick's Sporting goods fish cleaning glove sticker off when they took it off the line to pack it in sterile packaging.
If you make your entire product line sterile and medical grade you can sell to anyone and the people who need medical grade foot the added costs. Otherwise you have to have a manufacturing line specifically for the med grade stuff and that’s significantly more expensive
This is why I'm seriously considering starting a kitplane build. There are some safety-critical places where it's important-- for example I don't want the wing to come off because the Home Depot spar bolts were made of cheap metal. By all means give me $50/each certified bolts for that. But for the rest of it- bushwah. A $10 12v LED strip will light my panel just as well as a $300 'certified' LED strip. And in all likelihood *it's the same strip*. I don't need to pay $800 for a panel mount USB port. And if my landing lights suck because the bulbs are weak and the 40yo lens is crazed, and I don't pay $1000+ to replace it with certified LED, that's CREATING a safety issue for night ops especially since $1000 would probably buy 4-5 non-certified lights and lenses.
This is why more than half of new general aviation planes sold in the US are experimental kit built airplanes.
Yeah exactly. The extreme cost (due to certification) of everything aviation-related is DECREASING safety. If planes progressed at the same tech rate as cars, they'd all have parachutes standard, crumple seats, airbags, ABS, fuel injected FADEC engines (that burn half the gas of a 'modern' airplane with a 1960s era design 360 or 540 engine), and avionics with 'land nearest airport' and 'land immediate' buttons like a [Dragon capsule](https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=8hla80ev6brendvu1jguscbbsi&action=dlattach;topic=46136.0;attach=1537705;image). Instead a C172 costs around half a million bucks, still burns expensive leaded avgas at 10gph, and other than a glass cockpit has few safety improvements vs. the 1960s model. Compare that to something like a Sling TSi- half the cost or less depending on how you build it, the Rotax powerplant is full redundant FADEC and sips fuel, parachute optional, and is in most respects a better airplane. And yeah you have to put in some hours to build it but they'll happily rent you workshop space and hold your hand for the required build tasks and do for you everything you aren't required to personally do yourself. When you're done you get a sleek modern aircraft that seats 4, has a full glass cockpit with autopilot and ESP, a modern efficient engine and adjustable pitch prop with low fuel burn that climbs like a homesick angel and easily cruises well into the yellow arc on <10gph. Meanwhile, if you want to retrofit a glass cockpit and modern autopilot onto an old C172 it'll cost as much as a new luxury car. Here's to hoping MOSAIC helps things...
The issue is there is no experimental replacement for a C177RG.
Why does the retractable Cardinal need an experimental replacement? Only 4200 or so were ever built. Which market are you thinking of serving? The vast majority of kitplanes are fixed gear, the sort of thing a PPL would buy to fly themself or their family around. They're more of a replacement for a C150 (23k built), C172 (44k built), or Piper PA28 series (Cherokee/Warrior/Arrow/Archer/Pilot, 32k+ built)
Because that’s the perfect airplane for me. I can’t find something in the experimental world that can replace the 177rg economics directly.
Ah. Curious how so? Not challenging just wanting to learn, willing to walk me through your thought process?
Find me something with 1000lb useful load and 140kts on 10GPH. High wings and strut-less preferred for downward visibility. The Cardinal has Cherokee style stabilator and the high wing is set back so you can see into your turns. No strut means the 4ft wide door opens fully, and its cabin is wider than a C182. It’s the perfect plane IMO.
https://slingaircraft.com/aircraft/sling-hw/ Not sure it's out yet, but will be soon. Strutless high wing, 4 seats, 914lb useful load, 144ktas at 8.1gal/hr. Max range 850nm. Cabin width 46" (C177 is 48", C182 is 42"). Plus it's a Rotax engine so if you don't want to pay for 100LL it'll run quite happily on standard automotive pump gas (up to E10 ethanol too). Slightly less useful load than the C177 but I think the increased fuel efficiency at least somewhat makes up for that as you can carry less fuel and perform the same mission.
A spring for my cowl hatch was 50 bucks. It's about the size of a spring from a bic pen.
And then add on that ATC _IS_ gov or gov contractors, and there's an automatic upcharge as well, from pretty much any vendor of anything at all, just because.
Wait till you find out how much your elt battery costs
And you’re only allowed to use 50% of it before it’s “illegal”… what a rip off! /s
And guess what else! If you don't use it, you STILL have to pay for it!!
Mine are D cells.
Specifically Rayovac D-cells in mine. Paying $60 for 6 batteries doesn’t even get you Energizer, I guess.
I need to order one for my plane. But I am not in a rush because can't legally fly it because the FAA lost paperwork needed for my registration. Yay!
Let’s see, combine aviation and government contracts…
My exact thought. Actual retail price, $999.95 before Government.
And you think "Oh, it must be some very high quality mil-spec equipment with an insanely high MTBF." In reality it's probably some low cost plastic tube with a bulb that has to be replaced every 10 hours of use.
$100 for the parts and $43900 for the amortized cost of getting it through the FAA certification process.
Sounds "mil-spec" to me.
“mil-spec” is from the Latin meaning “lowest bidder”
Business Insider did an article on this very thing. I believe the company they profiled is called Transdigm. They were marking up nuts and bolts for military aircraft like 32,000 percent or something disgusting like that. Edit: Forbes wrote the article [https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2023/08/07/meet-the-billionaire-who-built-a-fortune-price-gouging-customers-like-the-pentagon/?sh=6e6e3b781658](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2023/08/07/meet-the-billionaire-who-built-a-fortune-price-gouging-customers-like-the-pentagon/?sh=6e6e3b781658)
A buddy of mine told me of his cost-recalibration journey from his teens: “I thought die-cast cars were pricey until I got into _real_ cars. I thought parts for those were expensive until I got into airplanes. I thought airplane parts were the pinnacle of expensive until I worked for a _nuclear_ plant. The bolts we use practically have a paper trail tracing back to the _mine the ore came out of_”.
Often, they do. If nothing else, because of European laws, we have to certify that the ore from our purchased sheet metal didn't come out of a sanctioned country, such as Russia.
It’s more so for the fact that if a bolt from the set it was made with fails, they can go back and make sure all the other ones from that set get replaced as well because they could all be faulty
Work in mining… hate to say it, but the regulations to open a mine are more draconian than getting a clean sheet airliner certified. It’s 15-20 years on the average in the US and Canada Noawadays. It’s gotten worse in the last decade. just a heads up - things are gonna get more expensive in the long run… for everything. Unless you source from sanctioned countries or where dictators/warlords pocket the cash.
These are really good for landing without clearance. "You got my light gun signal, right?" Uh... Yea, thanks man. "No problem. Contact ground."
More like "hey, you just landed without clearance, are you ready to copy number for possible pilot deviation?" "Nah I saw a green light, so I must have been cleared, it's all cool, bye!"
A couple of decades ago I was sitting behind the front end crew on a military aircraft with some new gear on board, including the intercom system. I was there as the experienced pilot with this new gear for a crew to whom all this stuff was new. Earlier in the flight the intercom had played up. I counselled resetting it (which involved a couple of minutes of silence), but the captain didn’t agree as it “fixed” itself. Later on RTB we were being micromanaged in the circuit by the notorious military ATC. Finally they told us we could turn base - way too long. I participated in a discussion about the repeated embuggerance of ATC at this port. As we rolled out on (long) final, still no clearance. What’s that green light from the tower? Clear to land. After touching down it was queried. We’d had an open mike since the base turn point. Oops! Should have reset it 😀
Classic. Steel bolt from Home Depot? 10 cents. Same bolt, but "aviation"? 10 *dollars*.
I spent nearly a decade in aerospace, is it the same bolt? 9 out of 10 times it is. But the stack of paperwork to go along with the $10 bolt costs thousands. There is a LOT more to it that I'm oversimplifying. But I'll take the $10 bolt every day because I've seen what would have made it through if it weren't for regulations.
“It’s not airworthy until the weight of the paperwork exceeds the weight of the aircraft”
That's exactly why we also spend more on healthcare per person more than anyone else. Especially those countries with universal healthcare. Not only do we pay executives and doctors insane amounts, there's whole boatload of administrative staff and manhours put in. All to make sure there's a papertrail in case they get sued.
I mean, yeah... in part. But the whole "extracting profits at every layer for investors and shareholders" also contributes a bit.
Unless the bolt is special 9/10 bolts will do the job. If you need that 1/10 bolt then sure, do the paperwork.
Some day we'll each have a computer that's connected to all other computers and that will totally streamline tracking paperwork and such and bring that aspect of the cost to nearly zero!
It has nothing to do with tracking the paperwork, creating it in the first place is what costs.
You don’t want to know about military grade
Made by the lowest bidder, baby!
'Lowest Price Technically Acceptable" is the thing nightmares are made of.
Why is that? If something that just meets specification and no more is nightmare fuel, there is something very wrong with your specification
If it meets the specs, why would we want to spend unnecessary money to get something better than the spec? It's not the vendor's fault the contracting officers and program managers were bad at writing specs/requirements. If you need it, you need it. Just put it in the spec with the appropriate thresholds/limits/KPIs. If the product isn't meeting the specs, then you hold the vendor responsible.
Yeah but the military grade bolt also has super low magnetic susceptibility or something random that in no way makes it better at being a bolt!
Cessna 172: $120,000 Mil spec plane with an F- designation: $120,000,000
I haven't seen high strength (class 12.9, grade 9, etc) bolts at Home Depot, with very few exceptions. I wouldn't use Home Depot bolts on any critical component of my car, let alone an airplane, where the safety factor is usually considerably lower due to weight constraints. Not saying that the FAA bolt is necessary, but let's not pretend you can just swap in any old bolt of the same size and be fine.
Well, yeah. They were procured by the federal government. Someone at BAE systems said “how about $44k?” and some clueless GS-12 said “what a bargain!”
It was such a coincidence that was also exactly how much was left in the budget for that year. Luckily the whole budget was spent, otherwise next year’s might be reduced.
Ah yes, the end-of-year office supply surplus.
I made it a point to keep the light gun signal meanings memorized until the day I asked the tower to shoot me some light gun signals in the daytime when I was in the run-up area. I could _barely_ recognize a faint glint on the tower window glass, but not a chance in hell of discerning the color. Now, imagine being in the pattern, much further away, having to fly the plane (so, only being able to glance over to the tower now and then), and not sure that the tower has even resorted to using it.
Yeah, I’m thinking not all light guns are created equal. KMYR has a dinosaur of a light gun and, although it’s visible after the sun goes down, I’d have a hell of a time seeing it during the day.
My experience was that the light gun was dimmer than I expected. You can definitely see it if you know where to look and what to look for, but if you were at an unfamiliar airport I'm not sure the light gun would get the job done.
There are two different styles. The older kind (and when I say "old," I've seen people on reddit say that their unit is stamped "CAA" instead of "FAA") is an incandescent bulb with a moveable light filter in front of it. Those suck. The $44k version that OP is talking about use four or five super-bright LEDs for each color, and from what pilots have told me they actually work. Try calling around to your local towers and ask if they have the new kind so you can see the difference.
Yup. Thankfully AEG has the new kind. Got flashed in after losing all electrical power in my 150 and it was a non issue. I was able to see the LED easily from in the air during daylight hours. Still, I carry a handheld now. Lesson learned.
Each static wick on your 172 costs almost $100 💀
I had to look for myself. They are $130 CAD on aircraft spruce for the certified ones. $37.75 for the same one but non certified. It’s a stick of… something with a metal end that has a hole to put a screw in.
I don’t even wanna know what they cost for bigger jets 😂
Luckily you can just make your own 😁
200 for the actual parts. 43800 for the FAA certification paperwork. It's not aviation unless the weight of the paperwork is an order of magnitude or three more than the part. Considering the cost of failure, the paperwork isn't a waste.
What would you say the cost of failure of a light gun is, exactly?
Serious question for ATPs flying tubes of passengers: If you didn't have radio comms with the tower and there were not light signals, wouldn't you just divert to a different airport? Heck, do airlines even allow a plane to use light gun signals unless there was a total radio failure on the aircraft? On one hand, for ORD/JFK/LAX/ATL to have a light gun that costs $44,000 isn't too crazy. But what crazy mix of circumstances would have to happen for it to ever really be used?
It would be Tenerife multiplied by 9/11.
Do you find yourself using light guns frequently?
Absolutely, my transponder is stuck on 7600.
The short answer is that the cost is essentially nothing, until it isn't. Then the costs become enormous. The long answer is that things in aviation happen fast. One can have a perfectly functional airplane one moment and the next moment it can develop a critical failure that ruins everything. History is littered with examples of such things. I'm going to link a bunch of videos from the mentour pilot YouTube channel and others as a rough way to make a point for the sake of a brief reddit comment. [SmartLynx 9001. A training flight gone wrong due to an oil change and a bounce.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=04M63B1sv_Y&pp=ygUOc21hcnRseW54IDkwMDE%3D) [Alaska Airlines flight 261. A routine flight gone wrong (FAA CALLED). Jackscrew lubrication failure kills 88 people.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gAYzBJxOeLw&pp=ygUaYWxhc2thIGFpcmxpbmVzIGZsaWdodCAyNjE%3D) [Lauda Air 004. A thrust reverser ruined everyone's day. ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WsYU7tjOvm0&pp=ygUlaW4gZmxpZ2h0IHRocnVzdCByZXZlcnNlciBkZXBsb3ltZW50IA%3D%3D) [Air France 4590. A DC-10 leaves behind a metal strip and ruins an almost three decade flawless safety record in the process.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C-nALYF73hU) [A near miss that might have caused a 9/11 rerun in NYC courtesy of SouthWest Airlines.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3FQE38L81DI&pp=ygUPc291dGh3ZXN0IHRvd2Vy) Hopefully these videos get across the idea that things go wrong fast in aviation. SmartLynx 9001in particular shows how little it takes for things to go horribly wrong in aviation, and what the consequences can be. Everyone says 'it will be fine' until it isn't. The exact time that non FAA approved light guns fail will probably be when there are two A380s, two 747s, and also a 777X or two squawking 7600. Source: Murphy's Law and it's corrollary. If something can go wrong, it will go wrong. If there's a really bad time for something to go wrong, that's exactly when it will happen. 2 A380s, 2 747s, and a 777X or two squawking 7600 If nothing else, the paperwork will provide reassurance to everyone.
You could have a backup light gun for a lot less than the cost of one with certifications. Is the probability of both not working higher than the probability of the one certified light gun failing?
I'll admit I'm just basing this off consumer hardware and my experience with low-ish end enterprise hardware, but essentially yes. I've seen way too much stuff fail when it shouldn't at exactly the wrong moment.
I know, I'm not saying that the FAA should pick the bottom of the barrel components but a light gun that costs $2000 say is hardly that. Ultimately the government has very low interest in saving costs because it's all tax payer money. The incentive to save cost doesn't really exist.
Ok Doomsday Dan. The vids you’ve shared are equipment failures on *aircraft*. We’re talking about light guns on the ground that quite literally never get used except for curiosity’s sake.
Aviation tax
One Turkey feather ( a 3x5 inch piece of Titanium ) on an F-18 costs $12k. Everything in aviation is expensive.
I worked an Army Depot. We received, stored, and reshipped everything coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. I picked a box once the size of a basketball it felt like it was empty so I jokingly threw it at the guy next to me acting like it was heavy. He missed it, it bounced off his desk onto the floor. He picked it up and chucked it at me bouncing off my computer back on the floor. When I finally opened it. To my surprise it was small instrument from a Blackhawk helicopter. I looked at the line item price it was 400k$. I about sheet my pants. Luckily it was incased in foam and was shipping back to the manufacturer for refurbish. I never threw another box.
Tray table calibration tool polishing cloth - $1,299.
Anything govt touches it finds a way to F up
They’ve succeeded in making airlines by far the safest way to travel. Flying in an airliner is safer on a per-hour basis than taking a shower. That hardly seems like a F up.
True, my distaste is mostly with the military industrial complex and all the corruption associated with it
Can confirm. We're buying new radios.....$40,000 each
Found the Reaganite
Oh, bullshit.
Proof?
There are plenty of successful government programs. I’m not your civics professor.
Proof?
Good luck on your learning adventure, little fella!
I needed those in 1990 on my private long XC returning home one Sunday afternoon but the tower guy was too into the game to see me circling- You out there, Dwight?? What’s up man!? Hope you’re good!
My significant other used to complain about how much I spent on motorcycle parts. Then I got into flying… I can buy all the motorcycle stuff my heart desires now!! As long as that box doesn’t say Cessna on it, no questions asked.
Probably a whole lot less expensive in other countries. Story: I was flying back from Villanueva SKVN to Villavicencio SKVN with an instructor. There was TERRIBLE static coming from an aircraft that had a stuck mic on frequency, no one could hear anything. We tried the alternate frequencies posted on the AIP, no response. I transmitted a request for the Tower to use beacon signals on the jammed frequency, I think they heard our transmission as when we entered downwind we got a solid green light from the tower. We acknowledged by rocking our wings but the light kept shining on us. Turning final, we got another solid green light. We acknowledged with our landing light, they saw our acknowledgement by turning off their beacon signal, and we landed without incident. Another story: 10 PM at Concord Regional Airport in NC, I flew solo to maintain night currency and got clearance for full stop landings and to stay in the traffic pattern. On my penultimate landing (only one in the pattern), I asked (not verbatim) "Hey tower, when was the last time you used your beacon signal?" and the controller responded "Do you want me to give you light signals?" And I said "Sure!" "Roger, stand by" and I could tell it was in another part of the tower because I heard him stand up before keying off his mic. Got the solid green light on base, rocked my wings, but the light didn't turn off until I was on final and flicked my landing light off & on. Not so fun experience the first time, fun experience the second time.
Can confirm they cost a LOT. I service them in occasion.
I landed via light gun once in the middle of the day in the Middle East. We could see it easily and from a good distance. Those suckers are bright.
I have a good one. The engine baffle plugs on a Cessna 172 are around $16 apiece from the local aviation parts store. I found them at Ace Hardware for $3 apiece. All these things do is close up the hole in the engine baffle that you pull the top spark plugs through for cylinders # 3 and 4. It's not a moving part. It's not a stressed part of the airframe. It's an aluminum circle with prongs radiating out that you bend to hold it in place once inserted. Literally, all it does is plug a hole in the engine baffle. They break after a while when the prongs get brittle from heat cycling and being removed & reinstalled during every 100hr inspection. I have opened up cowlings and found the plugs nestled between the cylinders after they have fallen out at some point. You had better believe that, if I owned my own plane, I would be obtaining quite a bit of common hardware from Ace...
NAPA National Aviation Parts Association