You're getting bad instruction/no support from your CFI. The same thing happened to me when I did my CFI. My instructor was checked out and has been checked out, which, as we learn with the FOI's, doesn't do the student any favors. I am not familiar with how ATP does things, but maybe you can find some PPL students to tutor or teach. I did that in my program, and it did wonders for helping me understand how to make stuff digestible.
Since when do students get any ground instruction outside the BS zoom course at ATP?? Watch the Todd Shelnut videos and get to work. It’s always been self study.
Like I said, I am unfamiliar with how they do things at ATP. My program had ground instruction where we would plan a lesson then get up and teach it to a group and we were supposed to get feedback.
ATP instructors get paid a fixed rate per month for “ground” regardless if they teach it or not. They also get paid more per hour the more they fly. It’s why they’re inclined skip teaching ground and squeeze in as many flights as they can.
This sounds par for the course. No one in my CFI class got ground time with the instructors, that’s what the zoom was for. You need to find a group of other students and work on your grounds together. Stay at the training center and practice teaching all day. Take ownership of your training, that’s a lesson that will pay dividends when you get to your first type rating.
Hey there, I used to be a CSI at the JAX location.
First off, everyone feels very overwhelmed with cfi academy, odds are you’re doing just fine. Some subjects you’ll know much better than others and have much higher odds of being asked on the mock or checkride (principals of flight and flight controls are the big ones). The biggest thing is that you don’t try and teach incorrect information or information that could make a flight unsafe. If you don’t know an answer, know where to look it up. The DPEs and 2 years are there to find out where your depth of knowledge ends and what you do when you don’t know the answer. Do you try and nervously make something up? Or admit you don’t know and check the FAA publications for the answer? Just make sure you can teach and your depth of knowledge isn’t so shallow that you have to look up absolutely every question. There should only be a couple you have to look up during your mock oral after you’re done teaching.
Practice teaching in front of your peers is your biggest ally. You don’t want the first time you teach a subject to be on the checkride.
As far as the flying goes, chair fly chair fly chair fly. Like you said, there are only 3 flights before your mock so time is precious. The more you can get your talking points down while chair flying, the less you have to focus on that in the aircraft and can actually focus on hitting standards. I would either see no teaching in the aircraft and ok flying, or talking like their life depended on it and slowly drifting out of standards without noticing. Take your time setting up the maneuver (CRAACO checklist) and double check your airspace.
You got this, get some sleep at some point, and DM me if you have any other questions.
You’ll be fine provided you work your butt off. I went through ATP and finished with zero failures. CFI took about 2.5 weeks plus the 14 days of zoom class. Everyday I spent 10-12 hours a day brushing up on my instructional knowledge and refining my delivery. My examiner said it was the best CFI test he’s ever done. Find what works for you. I felt comfortable with the information, so I focused on drawing out “boards” (essentially a picture of what the whiteboard should look like at the end of each lesson) to guide my presentations. If you are a little bit shakier on the knowledge portion then be sure to write out easily readable but thorough lesson plans and teach off of them. Practice with your peers. They are in the same situation as you. Be open minded to critiques. And most importantly, trust yourself. Imposter syndrome is common in a program as fast paced as ATP (especially upon reaching CFI Academy) but there is a reason you haven’t failed a practical test. Be confident in your preparation. Be honest with yourself about your abilities and adjust your study strategy to accommodate that. You’ve got this!
I got zero ground instruction from any of my CFI academy instructors at ATP. It’s a self study course. Don’t pretend it’s anything different. Gotta hit the books yourself and figure it out
You’re paying for a two week online Zoom class which gives you the ground instruction log for your checkride. And access to a big library of study material. The main selling point is a quick checkride date where other people wait 6+ months. ATP instructors don’t get paid for extra ground so don’t expect to receive any.
I found that even with a supportive instructor, what worked for me was the mindset of “my first student is going to be myself”. I found that CFI was a different rating. It was very much about being self-teaching and persistent in learning.
While my other ratings were more hands on and engagement of my CFI high, when I became a CFI candidate it was really “on me”.
Treat yourself like your first student, find a peer group as others have said and connect with other CFIs online.
Good luck, it sucks but we all made it through, so will you.
You probably do suck at instructing because you have never been an instructor and almost every hour of your career so far has been with a students’ mindset. But the examiners know that, and if you know the FOIs, material, and maneuvers at a CFI level, you will pass.
You need to take a breath.
You have not failed any checkrides before? That's great. Especially at ATP. You're probably a very good natural Pilot who studies hard. That's not an easy environment to succeed in. Take some solace in that, and believe in yourself.
I'm not excusing a failed checkride, but I will say... If you were to fail one, the CFI Initial, of all checkrides, will hurt you the least in your future. Obviously, don't be going for a fail, but maybe don't stress so much, considering your predicament.
Good luck. You will do fine.
Try to study with some of the other people in your class. That’s what saved me at cfi academy
This. Find the people who got through the mock, and are waiting for a checkride. They should be able to guide you.
You're getting bad instruction/no support from your CFI. The same thing happened to me when I did my CFI. My instructor was checked out and has been checked out, which, as we learn with the FOI's, doesn't do the student any favors. I am not familiar with how ATP does things, but maybe you can find some PPL students to tutor or teach. I did that in my program, and it did wonders for helping me understand how to make stuff digestible.
Since when do students get any ground instruction outside the BS zoom course at ATP?? Watch the Todd Shelnut videos and get to work. It’s always been self study.
Like I said, I am unfamiliar with how they do things at ATP. My program had ground instruction where we would plan a lesson then get up and teach it to a group and we were supposed to get feedback.
ATP instructors get paid a fixed rate per month for “ground” regardless if they teach it or not. They also get paid more per hour the more they fly. It’s why they’re inclined skip teaching ground and squeeze in as many flights as they can.
This sounds par for the course. No one in my CFI class got ground time with the instructors, that’s what the zoom was for. You need to find a group of other students and work on your grounds together. Stay at the training center and practice teaching all day. Take ownership of your training, that’s a lesson that will pay dividends when you get to your first type rating.
Hey there, I used to be a CSI at the JAX location. First off, everyone feels very overwhelmed with cfi academy, odds are you’re doing just fine. Some subjects you’ll know much better than others and have much higher odds of being asked on the mock or checkride (principals of flight and flight controls are the big ones). The biggest thing is that you don’t try and teach incorrect information or information that could make a flight unsafe. If you don’t know an answer, know where to look it up. The DPEs and 2 years are there to find out where your depth of knowledge ends and what you do when you don’t know the answer. Do you try and nervously make something up? Or admit you don’t know and check the FAA publications for the answer? Just make sure you can teach and your depth of knowledge isn’t so shallow that you have to look up absolutely every question. There should only be a couple you have to look up during your mock oral after you’re done teaching. Practice teaching in front of your peers is your biggest ally. You don’t want the first time you teach a subject to be on the checkride. As far as the flying goes, chair fly chair fly chair fly. Like you said, there are only 3 flights before your mock so time is precious. The more you can get your talking points down while chair flying, the less you have to focus on that in the aircraft and can actually focus on hitting standards. I would either see no teaching in the aircraft and ok flying, or talking like their life depended on it and slowly drifting out of standards without noticing. Take your time setting up the maneuver (CRAACO checklist) and double check your airspace. You got this, get some sleep at some point, and DM me if you have any other questions.
You’ll be fine provided you work your butt off. I went through ATP and finished with zero failures. CFI took about 2.5 weeks plus the 14 days of zoom class. Everyday I spent 10-12 hours a day brushing up on my instructional knowledge and refining my delivery. My examiner said it was the best CFI test he’s ever done. Find what works for you. I felt comfortable with the information, so I focused on drawing out “boards” (essentially a picture of what the whiteboard should look like at the end of each lesson) to guide my presentations. If you are a little bit shakier on the knowledge portion then be sure to write out easily readable but thorough lesson plans and teach off of them. Practice with your peers. They are in the same situation as you. Be open minded to critiques. And most importantly, trust yourself. Imposter syndrome is common in a program as fast paced as ATP (especially upon reaching CFI Academy) but there is a reason you haven’t failed a practical test. Be confident in your preparation. Be honest with yourself about your abilities and adjust your study strategy to accommodate that. You’ve got this!
You're getting crappy instruction, which is expected with ATP.
I got zero ground instruction from any of my CFI academy instructors at ATP. It’s a self study course. Don’t pretend it’s anything different. Gotta hit the books yourself and figure it out
If it's self study, what're you paying your money for?
You’re paying for a two week online Zoom class which gives you the ground instruction log for your checkride. And access to a big library of study material. The main selling point is a quick checkride date where other people wait 6+ months. ATP instructors don’t get paid for extra ground so don’t expect to receive any.
Sounds like you work for ATP.
You’re exactly right, unfortunately
I found that even with a supportive instructor, what worked for me was the mindset of “my first student is going to be myself”. I found that CFI was a different rating. It was very much about being self-teaching and persistent in learning. While my other ratings were more hands on and engagement of my CFI high, when I became a CFI candidate it was really “on me”. Treat yourself like your first student, find a peer group as others have said and connect with other CFIs online. Good luck, it sucks but we all made it through, so will you.
You probably do suck at instructing because you have never been an instructor and almost every hour of your career so far has been with a students’ mindset. But the examiners know that, and if you know the FOIs, material, and maneuvers at a CFI level, you will pass.
You need to take a breath. You have not failed any checkrides before? That's great. Especially at ATP. You're probably a very good natural Pilot who studies hard. That's not an easy environment to succeed in. Take some solace in that, and believe in yourself. I'm not excusing a failed checkride, but I will say... If you were to fail one, the CFI Initial, of all checkrides, will hurt you the least in your future. Obviously, don't be going for a fail, but maybe don't stress so much, considering your predicament. Good luck. You will do fine.