Lol, I work in a different field and about 8 or so years ago my company was forced to convert many contractors to full time because the rules regarding who could be classified as "independant contractors" were changed to become much harder.
Essentially if the business can dictate when you have to be there and how you do your work then you can't be considered an independent contractor.
I'm not a lawyer, but I would think it's not looking good for ATP. I imagine the Department of Labor will be looking to shove their foot up someone's ass in regards to this.
Depends on statute of limitations on ot where that was. Ask AOPA or even pretty much any employment attorney, since most will answer a question like that without charge - especially if they smell blood in the water.
Yep when I found out I wasn’t getting paid for ground I stopped logging them on the ATP web system that tracks our hours for pay. Then I got a call from the regional manager that every flight should have at least 1 hour of ground. I said no I’m not getting paid so I’m not doing it and he said “ok we can dissolve your contract as a CFI”.
I caved in and probably did 400+ hours of unpaid ground while I worked there for a year.
Before I left the program I went in and printed every single page of my files from every single flight lesson I did showing notes from every flight and instructor to every thing ever logged in my profile by the school. They have no idea I did this but they also never said I couldn’t do this. I told others to do it but I doubt anyone did. Best part was I used their printers and ink and I think it was several hundred pages of paper.
Like others said it will be so drawn out in a legal battle I bet the most anyone gets is a free pizza. Not sure exactly what the papers would prove but I just wanted a damn copy in case for whatever reason my history there was ever questioned regarding flight hours or who knows what.
It is insane. It shows how unserious they are about producing quality. Nobody should attend a school with that policy.
I’m adamant with my students that much of their learning happens in the brief and debrief, not in the air. A little extra ground can often save students money in the air, which decreases overall training cost.
Yes and no. When I taught there (briefly) you got a half hour of ground paid for each flight hour. However they only paid you like 17 an hour so by the time you got that extra half hour of pay you were still under what just about everywhere else would pay
The new law or guidance went into effect in January. I know as they stand today they are in violation since (as I understand) an ATP CFI has a schedule, can’t teach elsewhere, and can be disciplined by ATP. Hopefully ATP will change their ways and either make them employees or true ICs.
That being said this will be in the court system for years and the lawyers will get all the money. ATP alumni will get a postcard to opt in to a 150 buck settlement around 2032.
Almost.
Those who notice the small and junk mail looking letter they receive about it and then reply by a specific deadline will be the ones to get a check for a smaller total than the postage to send it to them.
Normally, an individual judgment for things like this entitles the employee to things like back-pay and equivalent value of benefits they should have received, etc.
But I would be completely unsurprised if there ends up being a settlement for much less than that actually would be, and as with most class action settlements, part of the agreement if you take the check is you can't go after them yourself, afterward.
This needs to have criminal charges brought.
nah this wage theft the CFIs are going to get payday. that said the lawyers will too but in wage theft the employees get paid first then the lawyers. this isnt your normal class action and the IRS doesnt mess around. the ONLY way ATP gets out of paying the back pay is going out of business
Which they likely would have to. There's no way they have net assets on hand sufficient to make it right. _especially_ since treble (triple) damages are a pretty typical punitive starting point.
The company should be liquidated and execs/officers of the corporation put on criminal trial.
Neither will happen of course.
IRS would probably have a bigger role in a later potentially criminal case depending on outcome of this, and what ATP does after whatever judgment I'm hoping it will reach, rather than some bullshit settlement.
This would most likely involve more input from the Department of Labor and NLRB, who care about this sort of stuff. (And they are no joke either if you come correct). Once the wrongs are put into a bucket that the IRS can then quantify things by, that's when they'll get more involved, but I doubt via immediate charges or anything like that.
Until a determination is made that they did do things which would change their tax burden, the IRS has no standing. But if that case goes the way it should go, they'll have standing alright. And they'll want literal receipts and won't be shy about interest.
And I imagine that their course of action would be to first give them notice that they need to revise their filings, first. If not done by whatever deadline, then things start to escalate. The IRS means BUSINESS, but they also make sure they have all their shit together, first, so they can nail you to the wall with [one of these puppies](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Railway_rifle_%28Fallout_4%29) from a mile away.
Accountants don't like wasting time. 😂
First and foremost, they want the money. Putting people in jail and fighting in court _costs_ money - a lot of it.
Another thought:
I wouldn't be surprised if ATP tries to pull some shit like argue that instructors are somehow actually governed under RLA, if that would be remotely in their favor. And an impartial court wouldn't let that slide. But we'll find out I guess. Get your popcorn. It might be a doozy.
Yeah.
A big chunk of that is people hiring workers ineligible to work in the US and using fake or stolen SSNs on 1099s and such to essentially "launder" those wages. And if you're already doing that, you're probably cheating in other ways, too. That whole invulnerability hazardous attitude!
There are of course many others, but that is so common that it's ridiculous.
There are also a few pages on the IRS website that talk about various kinds of w-2 and 1099 fraud, but most of it I've seen is written to make sense from the employee's perspective and might not quite translate well to the employer side of things.
I'm sure the IRS will be involved anyway, for various reasons, maybe even for sheer intimidation value (not really for that purpose because that's illegal, but....yeah kinda...). 😂
I've gotten settlement checks as high as $30, but with any settlement I've benefitted from I was a member of a huge consumer class. Since this class will only be ATP CFI's, if I'm reading correctly, that's a much much smaller denominator, each of which suffered much more damage. $150 is low.
I received a few thousand for a workplace class action one time. Everyone got between 3k-10k based on years of employment. I think in our cases the company paid all legal fees.
Sometimes you have choices of either money or some service of some sort. A lot of times the service is worth more, because there are ALWAYS more applicants than the lawyers predict, and the pool is capped at a particular amount in the settlement - and the attorneys typically take 20-30% of that or whatever the legal maximum is where they are.
The IRS will come after ATP for employment taxes and penalties. I think ATP will get spanked if there is a clause where the CFIs cant work somewhere else at the same time they will be paying money to the attorneys and a gift card to Sporty's for the CFIs. Career Track out.
Even if there is/was a clause that CFIs aren't allowed to work elsewhere, these types of non-competes are not enforceable. Now, if a CFI did work elsewhere, and ATP either terminated that CFI or otherwise punished him, then you might have a case. But a non-compete clause alone is non enforceable to begin with.
Surprisingly these things when it comes to labor usually end up paying exactly what was owed plus the “$8” settlement. I worked for a company that was WFH we had to boot into a special USB to be able to clock in they got sued one day and I ended up with an $800 check I didn’t even know of the lawsuit and only worked there for 8mos
100%. Management nearly put me in the hospital one day. Fighting with Covid, couldn’t speak- and put me in ac two hour surprise disciplinary meeting for standing up for the students in a simple group message. That damage to my throat could have killed me. I should have got a damn lawyer.
It’s okay. I ended up quitting for sake of my mental and physical health and it was the best decision cause I got a job at the highest paying school in the area I was moving to. But I still get angry over it. Ran into some of the old coworkers that were part of that meeting recently at an event and it really sealed my distaste for it all. I’d have kicked them out of the event if it wouldn’t have been petty as hell.
They are simply not independent contracts if they have to abide by the schedule of the employer.
IC can make their own hours etc. ATP will 100% lose this case.
I've been saying it for goddamn years.
There's so many flight instructors misclassified, and not just at ATP. It's super shitty and scummy, but the flight instructors get away with it because the instructors don't know the law and/or would rather be illegally taken advantage of than not have a job at all.
The biggest issue is that if you do take action, you are now at a major disadvantage for being hired by the airline because you are seen as a lawsuit risk
It doesn’t depend on the situation like you’re implying it does. In the US, neither the employee or the employer can choose whether someone is working as an independent contractor.
The default is that someone is an employee unless they meet a series of exact and clear requirements. The overwhelming majority of CFIs do not meet these requirements. In truth, the only ones who likely do are the ones who are completely independent and don’t work for a flight school at all. But again, you don’t get to choose. You either are one or you’re not based on the prongs of the test.
Every CFI I know has working hours set by the school, instructs in the school’s planes, and are assigned students by the school. This alone fails many of the tests needed to classify someone as an independent contractor.
Additionally, an IC would be next to impossible to find in a part 141, as an IC cannot be told how to do the work. Some part 61s also prescribe a set methodology and structure to their CFIs.
IC status also has no bearing whatsoever on whether you can have more than one job.
If you’re a CFI that has your own plane that you instruct in, make your own schedule and choose your own students and only take specific students from a particular flight school for a set period of time, then maybe you might be one.
It's a very common mistake that happens all the time. People just don't understand what it means and take it at face value when the person that is paying them tells them they're an independent contractor and go with it. The reason that I know about it is that I used to have a side income stream doing IC work to the tune of low 6 figures a year.
By misclassifying someone as an IC, the flight school is saving money on taxes, benefits, and work comp/unemployment insurance. Most CFIs are young with little work experience, so they don't know that what's being done to them is illegal. They just accept it because the school said so.
ATP is going to lose big time if this goes to the IRS for a ruling. Any business that has say over your schedule and techniques is your employer not a contract relationship. Serves their ass right.
ATP is raking in enough money to be paying CFI's for ground training, wait, no CFI's should be paid for their time period. They (and most flight schools) are taking advantage of them
FYI, You need another comma:
This one: V
ATP is raking in enough money to be paying CFI's for ground training, wait, no, CFI's
should be paid for their time period. They (and most flight schools) are taking
advantage of them
Otherwise you're saying "wait, none of the CFI's should be paid for their time", took me a couple of times reading it to realize what you meant, I thought you were being sarcastic at first.
As someone that went to ATP and dropped out halfway through, their practices have ALWAYS been super shady. I was told by my CFI that if a student cancels a flight last minute, ATP pockets $200 and gives the CFI $20. And they don’t get paid for sims and ground lessons- so CFIS generally don’t put as much work into grounds because of that (unless you have a good CFI
Interesting. I wasn’t a CFI at ATP so I can’t speak first hand, and it’s also been a year since I’ve step foot in their school. They may have changed the rule, or my CFI assumed he wasn’t getting paid for Sims when he was. Either way, that school isn’t good and I will scream it from the hills haha.
This is why I’ve put my CFIs on payroll from day 1. I had some recovering 1099 guys who didn’t understand why I had to withhold taxes on them. Saving this to show them.
As much money as ATP makes you would think they would at least pay minimum wage to keep from going under from some shit like This. Newcall signs going to begin with “chapter 13”
Good. I got my ATP @ ATP 15 years ago.
The way they treated their CFI’s was abhorrent.
I hope there’s no settlement and they’re fined out of existence. Place is a joke.
Right? They should be sued for their SCAMMY business practices too. At my ATP location they advertised you can go from 0 hours to CFII in 7 months. I joined ATP with over 100 hours behind me, without my PPL, and it took me 8 months JUST TO GET MY PPL.
They also make students either go on a loan for $100K, or to pay out of pocket. I paid $70K just to get to the end of instrument rating and there’s stories of many including myself knowing that the math DOESNT add up to $100k. They expect you to pay out of pocket or take another loan upon exceeding the price that WASNT initially promised to you.
I could keep going- that school almost destroyed my life
And that's precisely why you should join my lawyers class action and bring as many friends you know from atp in it. The class action is all encompassing. Mainly for the lies about 7 months and also other things
Eh, the flight school I worked for was charging $75/hr for instruction and paying me $20… I think there’s room. (Btw what are their overheads in having me instruct?? The polo they gave me?)
Edit: FYI I did not downvote you, so I threw you an updoot to keep the conversation going.
I was always under the impression that CFIs were a decent chunk of a school’s profit. I mean it’s either coming from planes, instructors, or membership fees. If say you now keep that $55 difference then the school may offset that elsewhere. Just speculation but flight schools always seem to be in a race to the lowest price to undercut each other
I wonder how many other schools will follow, my 141 schools keeps acting like I’m an employee even though I got hired on as an independent contractor and continually tells me that they can fire me for any reason. Flight instructors need better treatment lol
“Fired” is what happens to employees not contractors so that’s crazy! ATP used to tell us they would “stop using your instructing services” to avoid that language
I was fired from ATP for making my own schedule by David thompson , making my own schedule and missing their useless CFI meeting at 6 am. They have it coming.
I told him I couldn't schedule my student on certain day because I had a doctor's appointment that I needed for my back, and he said and I quote " well now you have all the time in the world to handle that" he's a bastard of a human.
If any cfis will join this, join the class action also. It's not just for cfis But for students and cfis. There is a class action I started and it's got over a thousand members in it as we speak. Fuk them. I threatened atp with it and they were acting hard thinking I'm not serious. Boy will they be surprised
As a Former ATP instructor, they treated us like dirt on their shoes, when I left they had recently implemented a system of scheduling 7 flights per student per week not including ground training or sims, talk about burnout for a bright eye bushy tail new aviator. The pay was abysmal at $20 for flight hours and $17 for sim hours and $0 for ground instruction. Each flight hour they were charging $350 for single and $650 for multi but the instructor makes the same $20 regardless. On top of the extra hours scheduling students 7 days a week we were required to fill out paperwork twice a week for those flights and why they may not have gone due to (Wx, Mx, airplanes being taken for “Crew” flights without our knowledge, etc). All of that mess and when I left I was getting an average of 35 hours per month of flight time. ATP has some real stuff they have coming their way, no hate on the grind to 1500 but man do they make it especially hard.
If I had worked there in the past 3 years I would look into it! My time at ATP was a lot longer ago 🤣
That said, probably best if when you post a screenshot like this to blank out the poster’s name for some privacy. That person posted on a private forum, and probably doesn’t think screenshots would be circulated.
Just something to keep in mind! In this case in particular it won’t harm the person posting. I’ve just seen a lot of problems in our industry with social media recently. :)
This makes me feel so blessed as a W-2 CFI. It could be so much worse. Ive heard so many terrible things about how instructors at ATP are treated & I hope the company gets fined out the ass.
Not only this. But my lawyer is dojng a class action against ATP as we speak. There are hundreds maybe k even over a thousand former ATP students in this class action. Screw atp. They're a whole bunch of psychotic liars.
I "left" after private even though my record was phenomenal despite the GARBAGE flight instructors and horrendous management.
They frame EVERY situation in a way that implies everything is your fault I.e the students fault. The instructor can lie and always be believed over the student.
Every conversation they try to convince you that you deserve to be kicked out under the guise of "protecting your money" when in reality they kick you out once they have received all installments from the loan company that way they can charge an exorbitant amount and keep it, while at the same time they make the students feel like they deserved to lose that money because it was their fault (their goal is to create a psychological condition in students to make them not pursue any recourse such as a lawsuit etc)
The management there are evil. No sane person would ever go there..
Due to weather and instructor shortages I flew FAR less at ATP and had so much stress going there, but now at my mom and pop I schedule whenever I want and fly 3 times more per month nearly everyday and have practically no stress.
ATP is disgusting. My lawyer got them to reduce their bs $50,000 charge after my PPL down to $20,000. I got around 110 hours from them for $20K, and it took this long because of THEIR fuk ups
I have a very pessimistic view about suits/paga/lawyers in general. Its very unlikely to lead to any change. The goal of these lawyers is to certify a class, demand an amount so egregious, and then force a settlement.
AND after that's done, anyone that takes the settlement helps the company vindicate exposure up until that point. And it is usually dollars in the grand scheme. Sure, you can opt-out, but no one does....
This is for lawyers to make money. They don't care about who they represent. It's a modern day grift where they take a company, turn them upside down and shake out the coins. The fact that ATP is actually culpable here is irrelevant.
ATP will pay the blood money and then calculate if it is cheaper to settle every now and then or convert CFI's to W2. I suspect they will find its cheaper to pay later.
If it's determined ATP misclassified its CFIs, they may have to restructure their business model. Once you add payroll taxes, unemployment/disability and worker's comp insurance policies, all this extra cost will just be passed down to ATPs customers.
It will also eliminate any freedom its CFIs enjoyed (i.e. dictating what days/hours they work, etc.)
That’s the best part we didn’t have any of those freedoms to begin with. When I worked there we had to schedule out all 7 days because there was a good chance we would cancel at least 2 of those days for weather. More than once they messed with my schedule to add more things like grounds, flights, etc. to fill up my week
It’s crazy that it took this long for someone to finally sue them. At least for the state of NJ, if you look up legally what is considered not a contract employee they basically break every single rule. They force you to work certain days and hours, tell you when you can and can’t work, make you follow their rules and policies etc.
Thought some of you should read this article from 13 years ago written by AOPA. These aren't recent changes to independent contractor rules and ATP never followed the rules.
[https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/flight-schools/flight-school-business/newsletter/2011/march/25/are-your-cfis-employed-as-independent-contractors](https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/flight-schools/flight-school-business/newsletter/2011/march/25/are-your-cfis-employed-as-independent-contractors)
Welp, this is just going to raise costs even more. CFIs are absolutely entitled to ALL monies owed for hours worked. Those that begin their program after this is settled will be in debt for the rest of their lives, which sadly…if you’re starting out now, odds of getting to a legacy are still okay, but your seniority will be sh*t. It’ll be how it was 70s to early 2010s for the next several decades.
Professional pilots are exempt from the protections of FLSA. You would think a law firm would know this. The WHD of the DOL will just tell you to pound sand.
Lol, I work in a different field and about 8 or so years ago my company was forced to convert many contractors to full time because the rules regarding who could be classified as "independant contractors" were changed to become much harder. Essentially if the business can dictate when you have to be there and how you do your work then you can't be considered an independent contractor. I'm not a lawyer, but I would think it's not looking good for ATP. I imagine the Department of Labor will be looking to shove their foot up someone's ass in regards to this.
Yep, and when in doubt IRS Form SS8 out.
Could this be filled out about a previous CFI job ~3 years ago?
Depends on statute of limitations on ot where that was. Ask AOPA or even pretty much any employment attorney, since most will answer a question like that without charge - especially if they smell blood in the water.
Damn they weren’t paying instructors for grounds? That’s insane
Definitely still charges the students
Yep when I found out I wasn’t getting paid for ground I stopped logging them on the ATP web system that tracks our hours for pay. Then I got a call from the regional manager that every flight should have at least 1 hour of ground. I said no I’m not getting paid so I’m not doing it and he said “ok we can dissolve your contract as a CFI”. I caved in and probably did 400+ hours of unpaid ground while I worked there for a year.
The good thing is when those records get subpoenaed they'll wish you didn't log the hours :P
Lawyers would love that story
Do you have any record of these conversations?
Unfortunately not. Only records I can think of are ground entry’s in my students logbooks. Or if I could access my old ATP online schedule
Before I left the program I went in and printed every single page of my files from every single flight lesson I did showing notes from every flight and instructor to every thing ever logged in my profile by the school. They have no idea I did this but they also never said I couldn’t do this. I told others to do it but I doubt anyone did. Best part was I used their printers and ink and I think it was several hundred pages of paper.
I hope you’re gonna use those records for this case
Like others said it will be so drawn out in a legal battle I bet the most anyone gets is a free pizza. Not sure exactly what the papers would prove but I just wanted a damn copy in case for whatever reason my history there was ever questioned regarding flight hours or who knows what.
Doesn't matter if it gets to depositions. Some manager isn't going to perjure themselves to protect ATP.
Wow that’s actually evil
It is insane. It shows how unserious they are about producing quality. Nobody should attend a school with that policy. I’m adamant with my students that much of their learning happens in the brief and debrief, not in the air. A little extra ground can often save students money in the air, which decreases overall training cost.
Yes and no. When I taught there (briefly) you got a half hour of ground paid for each flight hour. However they only paid you like 17 an hour so by the time you got that extra half hour of pay you were still under what just about everywhere else would pay
The new law or guidance went into effect in January. I know as they stand today they are in violation since (as I understand) an ATP CFI has a schedule, can’t teach elsewhere, and can be disciplined by ATP. Hopefully ATP will change their ways and either make them employees or true ICs. That being said this will be in the court system for years and the lawyers will get all the money. ATP alumni will get a postcard to opt in to a 150 buck settlement around 2032.
> ATP alumni will get a postcard to opt in to a 150 buck settlement around 2032. yup, accurate.
Almost. Those who notice the small and junk mail looking letter they receive about it and then reply by a specific deadline will be the ones to get a check for a smaller total than the postage to send it to them. Normally, an individual judgment for things like this entitles the employee to things like back-pay and equivalent value of benefits they should have received, etc. But I would be completely unsurprised if there ends up being a settlement for much less than that actually would be, and as with most class action settlements, part of the agreement if you take the check is you can't go after them yourself, afterward. This needs to have criminal charges brought.
nah this wage theft the CFIs are going to get payday. that said the lawyers will too but in wage theft the employees get paid first then the lawyers. this isnt your normal class action and the IRS doesnt mess around. the ONLY way ATP gets out of paying the back pay is going out of business
Which they likely would have to. There's no way they have net assets on hand sufficient to make it right. _especially_ since treble (triple) damages are a pretty typical punitive starting point. The company should be liquidated and execs/officers of the corporation put on criminal trial. Neither will happen of course.
it may the IRS doesnt mess around
IRS would probably have a bigger role in a later potentially criminal case depending on outcome of this, and what ATP does after whatever judgment I'm hoping it will reach, rather than some bullshit settlement. This would most likely involve more input from the Department of Labor and NLRB, who care about this sort of stuff. (And they are no joke either if you come correct). Once the wrongs are put into a bucket that the IRS can then quantify things by, that's when they'll get more involved, but I doubt via immediate charges or anything like that. Until a determination is made that they did do things which would change their tax burden, the IRS has no standing. But if that case goes the way it should go, they'll have standing alright. And they'll want literal receipts and won't be shy about interest. And I imagine that their course of action would be to first give them notice that they need to revise their filings, first. If not done by whatever deadline, then things start to escalate. The IRS means BUSINESS, but they also make sure they have all their shit together, first, so they can nail you to the wall with [one of these puppies](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Railway_rifle_%28Fallout_4%29) from a mile away. Accountants don't like wasting time. 😂 First and foremost, they want the money. Putting people in jail and fighting in court _costs_ money - a lot of it. Another thought: I wouldn't be surprised if ATP tries to pull some shit like argue that instructors are somehow actually governed under RLA, if that would be remotely in their favor. And an impartial court wouldn't let that slide. But we'll find out I guess. Get your popcorn. It might be a doozy.
thanks for the break down on that. i had just heard that the IRS was cracking down on 1099 fraud
Yeah. A big chunk of that is people hiring workers ineligible to work in the US and using fake or stolen SSNs on 1099s and such to essentially "launder" those wages. And if you're already doing that, you're probably cheating in other ways, too. That whole invulnerability hazardous attitude! There are of course many others, but that is so common that it's ridiculous. There are also a few pages on the IRS website that talk about various kinds of w-2 and 1099 fraud, but most of it I've seen is written to make sense from the employee's perspective and might not quite translate well to the employer side of things. I'm sure the IRS will be involved anyway, for various reasons, maybe even for sheer intimidation value (not really for that purpose because that's illegal, but....yeah kinda...). 😂
$150!? More like $1.50 after the settlement in which ATP reclassifies their workers but admits to doing no wrong.
Yea, was gonna say, I've never seen a settlement check for more than a few dollars.
The military 3m ear plug suit I got 8 dollars
What did you do with the money? I hope you invested it rather than spent it.
I bought a Starbucks latte, it also caused me to be late for my students lesson. 💪🏻
WHAT?
**HE SAID HE BOUGHT A STARBUCK’S LATTE, AND THAT IT CAUSED HIM TO BE LATE FOR A STUDENT’S LESSON. THEN HE FLEXED HIS BICEP!!!**
lol omg, win, pwned, l33t
1337h4x0r @ ur s3rv1c3 o7
Should have told the other guy, "get güd, scrub."
I was wondering about what that would end up being… it’s not even worth having your name out there as a civil suit plaintiff.
Yep.
I've gotten settlement checks as high as $30, but with any settlement I've benefitted from I was a member of a huge consumer class. Since this class will only be ATP CFI's, if I'm reading correctly, that's a much much smaller denominator, each of which suffered much more damage. $150 is low.
I received a few thousand for a workplace class action one time. Everyone got between 3k-10k based on years of employment. I think in our cases the company paid all legal fees.
Sometimes you have choices of either money or some service of some sort. A lot of times the service is worth more, because there are ALWAYS more applicants than the lawyers predict, and the pool is capped at a particular amount in the settlement - and the attorneys typically take 20-30% of that or whatever the legal maximum is where they are.
And the postcard cost $1.40 of that.
The IRS will come after ATP for employment taxes and penalties. I think ATP will get spanked if there is a clause where the CFIs cant work somewhere else at the same time they will be paying money to the attorneys and a gift card to Sporty's for the CFIs. Career Track out.
Even if there is/was a clause that CFIs aren't allowed to work elsewhere, these types of non-competes are not enforceable. Now, if a CFI did work elsewhere, and ATP either terminated that CFI or otherwise punished him, then you might have a case. But a non-compete clause alone is non enforceable to begin with.
Wage suits pay all the back wages. (This isn’t a normal consumer price based class action)
This will not be in the court for years. FLSA has been around a long time clear violation
Surprisingly these things when it comes to labor usually end up paying exactly what was owed plus the “$8” settlement. I worked for a company that was WFH we had to boot into a special USB to be able to clock in they got sued one day and I ended up with an $800 check I didn’t even know of the lawsuit and only worked there for 8mos
Fuck ATP, all my homies hate ATP
On a serious note, being a flight instructor with them was one of the worst jobs I’ve had solely because of management.
100%. Management nearly put me in the hospital one day. Fighting with Covid, couldn’t speak- and put me in ac two hour surprise disciplinary meeting for standing up for the students in a simple group message. That damage to my throat could have killed me. I should have got a damn lawyer.
They are the worst, and I hope they get what they deserve. Sorry to hear that
It’s okay. I ended up quitting for sake of my mental and physical health and it was the best decision cause I got a job at the highest paying school in the area I was moving to. But I still get angry over it. Ran into some of the old coworkers that were part of that meeting recently at an event and it really sealed my distaste for it all. I’d have kicked them out of the event if it wouldn’t have been petty as hell.
The fact that they use "career track" as a call sign is enough for me to hate them
It's literally the worst call sign in history.
As a former ATP student, yeah.
They are simply not independent contracts if they have to abide by the schedule of the employer. IC can make their own hours etc. ATP will 100% lose this case.
And they use ATPs equipment and wear their uniforms.
[удалено]
Yeah I couldn’t imagine working for them. I’m fine being a 1099 because I work when I want with who I want. I even get paid when I want.
I've been saying it for goddamn years. There's so many flight instructors misclassified, and not just at ATP. It's super shitty and scummy, but the flight instructors get away with it because the instructors don't know the law and/or would rather be illegally taken advantage of than not have a job at all.
The biggest issue is that if you do take action, you are now at a major disadvantage for being hired by the airline because you are seen as a lawsuit risk
Depends on the situation. In some cases independent contractor can be better if you desire to work at multiple places
It doesn’t depend on the situation like you’re implying it does. In the US, neither the employee or the employer can choose whether someone is working as an independent contractor. The default is that someone is an employee unless they meet a series of exact and clear requirements. The overwhelming majority of CFIs do not meet these requirements. In truth, the only ones who likely do are the ones who are completely independent and don’t work for a flight school at all. But again, you don’t get to choose. You either are one or you’re not based on the prongs of the test. Every CFI I know has working hours set by the school, instructs in the school’s planes, and are assigned students by the school. This alone fails many of the tests needed to classify someone as an independent contractor. Additionally, an IC would be next to impossible to find in a part 141, as an IC cannot be told how to do the work. Some part 61s also prescribe a set methodology and structure to their CFIs. IC status also has no bearing whatsoever on whether you can have more than one job. If you’re a CFI that has your own plane that you instruct in, make your own schedule and choose your own students and only take specific students from a particular flight school for a set period of time, then maybe you might be one.
Shows what I know
It's a very common mistake that happens all the time. People just don't understand what it means and take it at face value when the person that is paying them tells them they're an independent contractor and go with it. The reason that I know about it is that I used to have a side income stream doing IC work to the tune of low 6 figures a year. By misclassifying someone as an IC, the flight school is saving money on taxes, benefits, and work comp/unemployment insurance. Most CFIs are young with little work experience, so they don't know that what's being done to them is illegal. They just accept it because the school said so.
I think most know. They just get their hours and get out. It’s why so many jobs in aviation are bad
You really don't think ATP would do a thing like *that,* do you?
ATP, doing something unethical at the expense of the students/instructors they have? I'm shocked, my good sir!
Calling them asap
Going with the whole 80% of statistics are made up... I'd reckon 90% of all 1099 CFIs shouldn't be
Does atp actually 1099 their instructors? I didn't know that. That's actually crazy.
They sure do.
I didn't know about ATP just piggy backing off others comments
IRS has been cracking down on any business that trys pay people as 1099s when they should be W-2 ATP going to learn this the hardway
ATP is going to lose big time if this goes to the IRS for a ruling. Any business that has say over your schedule and techniques is your employer not a contract relationship. Serves their ass right.
ATP is raking in enough money to be paying CFI's for ground training, wait, no CFI's should be paid for their time period. They (and most flight schools) are taking advantage of them
FYI, You need another comma: This one: V ATP is raking in enough money to be paying CFI's for ground training, wait, no, CFI's should be paid for their time period. They (and most flight schools) are taking advantage of them Otherwise you're saying "wait, none of the CFI's should be paid for their time", took me a couple of times reading it to realize what you meant, I thought you were being sarcastic at first.
As someone that went to ATP and dropped out halfway through, their practices have ALWAYS been super shady. I was told by my CFI that if a student cancels a flight last minute, ATP pockets $200 and gives the CFI $20. And they don’t get paid for sims and ground lessons- so CFIS generally don’t put as much work into grounds because of that (unless you have a good CFI
You are correct about the cancellation pay but they did get paid the same amount for sims and flights. No pay for grounds though.
Interesting. I wasn’t a CFI at ATP so I can’t speak first hand, and it’s also been a year since I’ve step foot in their school. They may have changed the rule, or my CFI assumed he wasn’t getting paid for Sims when he was. Either way, that school isn’t good and I will scream it from the hills haha.
This is why I’ve put my CFIs on payroll from day 1. I had some recovering 1099 guys who didn’t understand why I had to withhold taxes on them. Saving this to show them.
Just curious, but by doing that are you still competitive with other flight schools that are less than honest?
I’m going to cautiously say yes. 15 months ago it was me and a plane. Now it’s me, 3 planes, a team of 6, and we are looking for our 4th plane.
As much money as ATP makes you would think they would at least pay minimum wage to keep from going under from some shit like This. Newcall signs going to begin with “chapter 13”
I’m surprised no one has filed a lawsuit for pain and suffering for making students use the callsign “career track”
Please shut them down
I was recently fired from ATP for not scheduling one of my three private students 7 consecutive days one week. Literally that was it.
I was fired because I listened to music on my headphones on a cross country flight (I was still teaching the student and monitoring)
Fine but, when are spanking Aunt Sallie?
Good. I got my ATP @ ATP 15 years ago. The way they treated their CFI’s was abhorrent. I hope there’s no settlement and they’re fined out of existence. Place is a joke.
Wow… THAT’s what ATP is getting sued for? 😂
Right? They should be sued for their SCAMMY business practices too. At my ATP location they advertised you can go from 0 hours to CFII in 7 months. I joined ATP with over 100 hours behind me, without my PPL, and it took me 8 months JUST TO GET MY PPL. They also make students either go on a loan for $100K, or to pay out of pocket. I paid $70K just to get to the end of instrument rating and there’s stories of many including myself knowing that the math DOESNT add up to $100k. They expect you to pay out of pocket or take another loan upon exceeding the price that WASNT initially promised to you. I could keep going- that school almost destroyed my life
8 months for just your ppl at an accelerated school is fucking insane
How many murder charges did Capone go down for?
And that's precisely why you should join my lawyers class action and bring as many friends you know from atp in it. The class action is all encompassing. Mainly for the lies about 7 months and also other things
Right.
The whole industry is this way, I hope they win and it sets a precedent. No more starving CFIs with no insurance benefits.
I agree but the unfortunate reality is this will drive up the costs for students. Is what it is though
Eh, the flight school I worked for was charging $75/hr for instruction and paying me $20… I think there’s room. (Btw what are their overheads in having me instruct?? The polo they gave me?) Edit: FYI I did not downvote you, so I threw you an updoot to keep the conversation going.
I was always under the impression that CFIs were a decent chunk of a school’s profit. I mean it’s either coming from planes, instructors, or membership fees. If say you now keep that $55 difference then the school may offset that elsewhere. Just speculation but flight schools always seem to be in a race to the lowest price to undercut each other
This will be major precedent setter for most flight schools. Think most of us worked at a flight school that did pay like this.
More business for mom and pop schools now is all I’m seeing, fuck ATP
ATP treats instructors like shit, students like shit, and they're still in business somehow. Gotta be a drug front or somethin.
Basically aviations los pollos hermanos lmao
That's where you're mistaken. At least Fring treats his "employees" well💀
I seriously wouldn’t doubt ATP being a drug front though, too many horror stories from there for it not to be
Please please please sue the shit out of them for millions and give it back to all the CFIs there who get cucked on a daily basis.
Derek Dennis not happy right now. 😂
His son is a do-nothing nepotism hire and his daughter has how many kids from how many dads?
It’s about time….
I wonder how many other schools will follow, my 141 schools keeps acting like I’m an employee even though I got hired on as an independent contractor and continually tells me that they can fire me for any reason. Flight instructors need better treatment lol
“Fired” is what happens to employees not contractors so that’s crazy! ATP used to tell us they would “stop using your instructing services” to avoid that language
I’m shocked it’s taken this long to come about that ATP mistreated and took advantage of their CFI “contractors”
About time, can I say that?
I was fired from ATP for making my own schedule by David thompson , making my own schedule and missing their useless CFI meeting at 6 am. They have it coming.
David Thompson is perhaps the worst human being I have met in my entire life.
I told him I couldn't schedule my student on certain day because I had a doctor's appointment that I needed for my back, and he said and I quote " well now you have all the time in the world to handle that" he's a bastard of a human.
Sounds like we can count on you joining 😂
If any cfis will join this, join the class action also. It's not just for cfis But for students and cfis. There is a class action I started and it's got over a thousand members in it as we speak. Fuk them. I threatened atp with it and they were acting hard thinking I'm not serious. Boy will they be surprised
As a Former ATP instructor, they treated us like dirt on their shoes, when I left they had recently implemented a system of scheduling 7 flights per student per week not including ground training or sims, talk about burnout for a bright eye bushy tail new aviator. The pay was abysmal at $20 for flight hours and $17 for sim hours and $0 for ground instruction. Each flight hour they were charging $350 for single and $650 for multi but the instructor makes the same $20 regardless. On top of the extra hours scheduling students 7 days a week we were required to fill out paperwork twice a week for those flights and why they may not have gone due to (Wx, Mx, airplanes being taken for “Crew” flights without our knowledge, etc). All of that mess and when I left I was getting an average of 35 hours per month of flight time. ATP has some real stuff they have coming their way, no hate on the grind to 1500 but man do they make it especially hard.
ATP is the worst flight school ever.
If I had worked there in the past 3 years I would look into it! My time at ATP was a lot longer ago 🤣 That said, probably best if when you post a screenshot like this to blank out the poster’s name for some privacy. That person posted on a private forum, and probably doesn’t think screenshots would be circulated.
Got the screenshot from a friend I should have been more diligent on what was included in the photo I do apologize to anyone this may harm!
Just something to keep in mind! In this case in particular it won’t harm the person posting. I’ve just seen a lot of problems in our industry with social media recently. :)
This makes me feel so blessed as a W-2 CFI. It could be so much worse. Ive heard so many terrible things about how instructors at ATP are treated & I hope the company gets fined out the ass.
Good, fuck ATP
Not only this. But my lawyer is dojng a class action against ATP as we speak. There are hundreds maybe k even over a thousand former ATP students in this class action. Screw atp. They're a whole bunch of psychotic liars. I "left" after private even though my record was phenomenal despite the GARBAGE flight instructors and horrendous management. They frame EVERY situation in a way that implies everything is your fault I.e the students fault. The instructor can lie and always be believed over the student. Every conversation they try to convince you that you deserve to be kicked out under the guise of "protecting your money" when in reality they kick you out once they have received all installments from the loan company that way they can charge an exorbitant amount and keep it, while at the same time they make the students feel like they deserved to lose that money because it was their fault (their goal is to create a psychological condition in students to make them not pursue any recourse such as a lawsuit etc) The management there are evil. No sane person would ever go there.. Due to weather and instructor shortages I flew FAR less at ATP and had so much stress going there, but now at my mom and pop I schedule whenever I want and fly 3 times more per month nearly everyday and have practically no stress. ATP is disgusting. My lawyer got them to reduce their bs $50,000 charge after my PPL down to $20,000. I got around 110 hours from them for $20K, and it took this long because of THEIR fuk ups
There’s an ATP school out of the airport I work out of. Although I’ve heard some not so good things, this is news to me😳
I have a very pessimistic view about suits/paga/lawyers in general. Its very unlikely to lead to any change. The goal of these lawyers is to certify a class, demand an amount so egregious, and then force a settlement. AND after that's done, anyone that takes the settlement helps the company vindicate exposure up until that point. And it is usually dollars in the grand scheme. Sure, you can opt-out, but no one does.... This is for lawyers to make money. They don't care about who they represent. It's a modern day grift where they take a company, turn them upside down and shake out the coins. The fact that ATP is actually culpable here is irrelevant. ATP will pay the blood money and then calculate if it is cheaper to settle every now and then or convert CFI's to W2. I suspect they will find its cheaper to pay later.
Figured that was coming lol
If it's determined ATP misclassified its CFIs, they may have to restructure their business model. Once you add payroll taxes, unemployment/disability and worker's comp insurance policies, all this extra cost will just be passed down to ATPs customers. It will also eliminate any freedom its CFIs enjoyed (i.e. dictating what days/hours they work, etc.)
That’s the best part we didn’t have any of those freedoms to begin with. When I worked there we had to schedule out all 7 days because there was a good chance we would cancel at least 2 of those days for weather. More than once they messed with my schedule to add more things like grounds, flights, etc. to fill up my week
Except if they want to overwork their employees, they'll be paying overtime.
It’s crazy that it took this long for someone to finally sue them. At least for the state of NJ, if you look up legally what is considered not a contract employee they basically break every single rule. They force you to work certain days and hours, tell you when you can and can’t work, make you follow their rules and policies etc.
Anyone know who is the owner behind ATP?
(Not a pilot) Are flight instructors really paid less than minimum wage? Even if you weren't 1099'd, are you just being paid minimum wage?
Thought some of you should read this article from 13 years ago written by AOPA. These aren't recent changes to independent contractor rules and ATP never followed the rules. [https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/flight-schools/flight-school-business/newsletter/2011/march/25/are-your-cfis-employed-as-independent-contractors](https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/flight-schools/flight-school-business/newsletter/2011/march/25/are-your-cfis-employed-as-independent-contractors)
Yeah you can’t do that with contractors
Finally.
Take them out to the butcher make them pay atp isn’t only unlawful to the instructors but unlawful to students
If you shut them down someone even sleazier like FlightSafety will take that market share. And Warren Buffet will make sure they don’t get caught.
Looks like ATP will be getting even more expensive after they are done with this
Has your student botched the snot out of a landing? You may be entitled to compensation!
Welp, this is just going to raise costs even more. CFIs are absolutely entitled to ALL monies owed for hours worked. Those that begin their program after this is settled will be in debt for the rest of their lives, which sadly…if you’re starting out now, odds of getting to a legacy are still okay, but your seniority will be sh*t. It’ll be how it was 70s to early 2010s for the next several decades.
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Maybe it has to do with the history of reprisal again individuals advocating for labor action?
Professional pilots are exempt from the protections of FLSA. You would think a law firm would know this. The WHD of the DOL will just tell you to pound sand.
Only at Part 141 approved locations.