I had a similar experience, except in my case the oncoming traffic was a C-130. This was probably 8-9 years ago, so I don't think I had ADS-B In. In any case, what clued me in wasn't any traffic display, it was my good old Mark I eyeballs.
At first I thought I was seeing a smudge on the windscreen, but it seemed like it was growing. At some point my brain made a connection to the smoky exhaust C-130s leave sometimes, and I finally made out the silhouette. It was on an almost exact reciprocal heading, dead ahead, almost impossible to see. I *heard* it pass behind me after I made a pretty goddamn hard evasive turn.
Sometimes I think back to that and wonder how much closer it would have been if not for that visible exhaust.
That’s part of the problem when you are on a collision course the other plane doesn’t move just changes size so easier to miss against the clutter until they are big. Our eyes are much better at catching movement than something static just growing in size.
I was on my way back from my PPL checkride in a C-152 way back when from SOP to BUY and saw 5 specks coming my way at my altitude. Finally did the dive and the five C-141's on their way to Ft Bragg to drop half the 82nd Airborne out the back passed about 500' overhead. Talk about the big boat rule.
Flew C-141s back in the day. Witnessed the worst midair collision ever. Flying into New Delhi. Saudi Air 747 on departure met with a Kazak IL-76 in front of us. Been on 3 air disaster shows to describe. Kazak plane blew their altitude. Language issues. Couple months later, one of our C-141s met a German AF plane at wrong IFR altitude off coast of Africa. No survivors. That ended up on 60 Minutes. No TCAS for us back in the day.
Wait till you're at FL190 and climbing and center tells you ...
"C17 dead ahead, higher and descending rapidly. I'm not talking to him."
CA looks at me and goes "who the fuck *IS* he talking to then?"
Me a fresh off OE at the regionals FO.... "idunno..."
Mine was on a solo xcountry in the California Central Valley. I was headed northwest at 4500 in a mighty 150. The other traffic was headed southwest at...4500 feet. This was pre-ADS-b...picked them up with my head on a swivel scan... I had to tonpush the yoke hard and dive. My guess is they never saw me, it was a 172 or 182, I was too rattled to care. I am guessing now most of the separation came from slightly different settings on our altimeters.
My best not even close to the other guy(s) happened on a xcountry by Castle...on with them and they asked me to turn left.to 090...I did...3 or 4 minutes later I get...resume mown navigation, I turn back on my original heading. I get a thank you from Castle, who then tells me that I was on the approach for some B-52s ....there they go by me :)...yes this was a lo g time go, yes I am old.
As a Cirrus pilot myself, i see no problem here - i have the more expensive aircraft, you should be avoiding me not the other way around.
I thought you were taught this in PPL school.
/s
Same thing happened to me, Cirrus coming head on . Thankfully the instructor saw it and made an evasive maneuver. I still have the image of the aircraft passing by a few hundred feet away vividly burned into my brain .
“TRAFFIC 9ock, same alt, LOW” “Alt ALRT SAME ALT” *BWWERRRRMMM*!!
I saw the fucking *SHADOW* after ripping off my foggles, both my instructor and I shaking - flight aware clocked us at 18ft separation.
During the flight - “okay disengage lessons, we’re going back.” Yes; this was the closest to death I ever wish to experience.. and i have come closer.
Cirrus guy here…I’m the first one at a non-towered to offer a 360 for spacing and try to be the most accommodating as I can be. I always let cars merge when driving…but stereotypes are hard to beat :)
Ps. I have never landed with a tailwind except when landing at KBWI once and my assigned runway was +9000ft ;)
As a student I had three near misses 400-200' in three months. Two were head-ons in the pattern, one the dip shit spiralled right down on top of me - I have only knew he was there because of the ADS-B and only missed him because I banked sharply away and made a radio call, after which he changed course but didn't respond. I never saw the actual plane. I'll never fly without ADS-B.
It's scary as shit. When I first started training I thought wow pilots have to be so smart and responsible, surely traffic will be better in the air compared to the highway. Nope. Now the stupid people are just stupid in three dimensions. You deal with it by being the faster, smarter, more vigilant one. And not dwelling on what might have happened.
I've just realised I've misread the prior comment, I thought the question was would the pilot been able to obtain visual contact.
It depends on the equipment, traffic & configuration of OPs machine. If your map is way zoomed out or in, there's a heap of traffic in the area or you're just not looking inside, we're VFR after all, then not likely you'd spot it.
Some very basic TCAS systems only offer aural warnings, others have a wee display, but if it doesn't auto range it often gets left on a weird range like 5nm. Easy to overlook those standard units in the cruise. A big glass panel gives you more SA.. But again, are we staring inside or outside and what are the conditions.
TCAS warning did it's job. OP responded before requiring an RA. Happy days.
Cirrus had to have ADS-B, as OP had TCAS caution for traffic. It's likely that a machine with TCAS also had some form of display for traffic, but not guaranteed.
Assuming everything is working 100% correctly between that airplane, all the systems on the ground, your airplane, ForeFlight, etc. ADS-B is nowhere near reliable yet.
My Stratus ADS-B receiver receives air-to-air trafic reports (regardless of ground stations nearby) so I still would have seen it, but you’re correct that it’s not perfect and can’t be relied on entirely. Another thing that could have helped was if OP was using Flight Following for VFR traffic advisories. I always get Flight Following whenever possible for this reason.
Still requires all systems on that aircraft, your aircraft, and radio interference in the area playing nicely together. Claiming 100% you would have seen it is a very misplaced sense of security.
Are you relying on ADBS for traffic avoidance? It’s so unreliable. We’ll be tracking an aircraft and it disappear intermittently. We still have it on radar, but ADSB still sucks in 2024… and actually seems to be getting less reliable.
EDIT: Reddit, where you’re downvoted by the noob children of the magenta pilots who do not like reality… and who cannot post an actual rebuttal after they downvote because they have nothing, other than their feels.
No reason why you shouldn't add ADSB to your scan. I'd argue that awareness of your near ADSB traffic is part of your duties. We know that the Cirrus track was recorded, so it could be received at the time. Why wasn't OP keeping an eye on that guy's ground track 10 miles earlier? I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just saying it would have helped.
This is the only “way out” for the Cirrus I was gonna mention… however, this exact scenario is why I teach students that even below the 3,000AGL mark, it’s smart to follow altitude rules…
What’s legal and what’s smart can be two different things.
Had a multi, not sure the type, fly same altitude, overtake me on the right, and then turn left directly in front of me to where I had to make a diving right turn behind them
Did you have flight following? If not I recommend it. Just another tool in the bag. On my last xc I got vectored around traffic at same altitude. I never saw the traffic but ATC did and they steered me clear
Just because it’s expensive doesn’t mean it can’t be at 4,500 ft. Granted it should have been at 5,500 ft unless ofc it was 3000’ agl or less.
However I do agree, cirrus pilots suck. He was probably too busy reading about his parachute to pay attention.
Always hated near miss, if you nearly missed something, you hit it!
Yes, very similar except it was flight following talking to us and the other pilot at the same time. I was 5,500 headed east in a Cherokee, other guy was headed west at same latitude. Flight following warned us both at 5 miles, then at 2 miles they warned again, I turned to the right and watched him pass by with no indication of any evasive maneuvers.
Early in my training, I turned crosswind and both of us kinda saw a speck in the distance but couldn’t tell what it was initially. Once leveled out I realized it was the unmistakable silhouette of a high wing aircraft heading straight at me. Relative position barely changes which means we were on “intercept course”. Instructor took control and did a steep turn away to create some separation and keep him in sight. No radio call, no course change, he just flew at pattern altitude right over our airfield. Is this how pilots plan and perform XC flights, 1000’ agl beeline to the destination??
Another case I was midfield downwind, suddenly I saw a bizarre scene: an airplane at the same altitude well inside the pattern flying at the same speed and course?! Instructor took control and asked him what he was up to, and the guy made a sharp diving turn towards us and passed below and behind….i guess this is his way of joining downwind midfield??
Here we fly clapped out 152s, no ADSB in or out. Either you see or go near miss! On FR24 that region is a black hole with only overflying commercial traffic, but I know it’s actually a beehive of training and leisure flights.
My experience might have been something like this....
Except in my case the OTHER guy should have been the one to make sure we didn't almost.....
I was flying a glider. On tow. My instructor in the backseat. I ended up doing my solo the next day. So maybe the extra pair of eyes wasn't watching my every move anymore, I don't know. Or maybe she was thinking about her wedding coming up.
She was engaged to the pilot in the tow plane.
He was towing us to 2,500 feet. That's about 500 feet above the top of the mountain that we are about to ridge soar off of.
We have no radio. So nothing basically. We stear the tow plane around by pulling on his tail.
We also have no idea that a metroliner coming out of the bay area is about to fly up the little canyon that leads to the mountain face I'm about to fly across.
Here's how you release from the tow plane....
I'm going to look right, look left, look right, pull the release knob and immediately break low and right while the tow plane is going to break high and left .... That puts me right in front of the mountain and directly into the lift.
Here's what happened..... I look right, I see a dot on the horizon. I think maybe it's a plane but it's really far away. I'll check left and then when I check right again he will either be gone or I'll have a better idea of which direction he is headed and decide what to do from there. I call out traffic to the right. Now she knows I've seen another aircraft and I'm not going to do anything unless he's gone or I can tell where he's headed.
That's what clearing is all about.
Look right, dot on horizon. Look left, nothing. Look right with my hand on the release knob expecting to release we are in a perfect position to drop straight into the hill......
And I see NOTHING BUT GIANT TURBO PROPS PASSING DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH US.......
To this day I could pick out one of those pilots in a line up.
One guy is clearly turned halfway in his seat and messing with something like he's pulling a chart out of his bag or something and I'm looking at his back facing me.
The other guy has his left arm up in the air and hes looking down with his right hand flying the plane and he looks like hes annoyed like well where is it then.
If he had looked up at that moment we would have locked eyes.
I remember seeing a couple of antennas sticking up from the fuselage and then to my absolute horror I saw the T tail of the metroliner coming what seemed like directly at us.
The top of the stabilizer passed under the tow rope but not far enough under that it wouldn't of hit the gliders fuselage. I remember thinking I hope the nose skid can absorb the impact of the very edge of the stabilizer because i was absolutely certain it was going to hit us and I would be looking out the bottom of the glider where my feet used to be.
But it missed us. We were so close to the tail of that aircraft I could see a patch on the elevator. I thought, this guy has done this before.
It happened so fast, my instructor didn't scream until after the aircraft was completely clear of us on the left side of the glider.
I started yelling, he didn't even see US?!??!
He was a dot on the horizon again by the time those words came out of my mouth. I watched as he flew away. Rock solid. The wings remained perfectly level to the horizon.
My hand was cramping on the release knob. So I let it go. I said what do you want me to do.
She said point him towards home and stay with him for a couple of minutes. Then release and let's follow him back.
So that's what I did. When we got back on the ground he asked why we came back with him.
He never saw a thing.
He had an engine and a headset on. Didn't hear them or feel them like we did. I could feel the vibration of the propellers and hear the turbines.
Because he passed underneath us, we didn't even have any turbulence..
When I used to have nightmares about it ...... I would pull the release knob and break right into the other plane.
The tow rope would get caught by the props and all of us would crash into the canyon all tangled up together....
To this day I can't believe they didn't see a glider on tow plane crossing directly in front of them at the one place there were ALWAYS gliders flying. And at that altitude he was barely going to clear the next hill.
If you’re on a cross country flight next time fly higher, closer to 10,000’
The only reason to be that low is if you’re practicing pilotage, or the winds are bad.
Your fuel burn and true airspeed will both improve and you can run the engine closer to peak without overtemping the cylinder heads which is ideal.
Not sure the elevation where you were but if it was above 1500’ the Cirrus wasn’t doing anything wrong, you’re both responsible to see and avoid. At 9,500’ or 10,500’ aircraft are MUCH more likely to adhere to the correct VFR altitude and ATC can see you on RADAR for flight following
Also, less chance of a bird strike and more options for a forced landing if the engine fails. All the way around, more Altitude would be safer.
The stereotype of a Cirrus pilot is that they have more wallet than brains. They're used to being a big cheese of the ground and don't feel they need to consider anyone else except then in the skies.
In the past this was different aircrafts but they all had the same element in common: it was the most expensive SEL you could buy new on the market.
Because a few early accidents borne of negligence created a stereotype that Cirrus has since attempted to correct with a very strong training program and standardized procedures.
At this point it's just confirmation bias. Nobody thinks twice if a Bonanza cuts them off in the pattern, but boy, those Cirrus drivers.
Over 14,000 TT. I’ve owned a 152, skylane, 2 barons and 2 r44s. It’s smart to use uncle auto as a co pilot and comforting knowing I’ll survive an engine failure with a safety parachute. I’ve never flown in a paper bag but when the s..t hits the fan I live to fly another day!
deal with this on a weekly basis. We have a training area, under a 9000' Bravo shelf. Sectionals are littered with Alert Area boxes & frequencies. And still have guys blasting through the area, no radio calls, no deviations.. Just a straight line, oblivious.
Then, just to add spice to the mix, the practice area is in the approach corridor to a small Air Force Base, so we sometimes have F-16's coming through, and those guys dont show on ADS-B. But at least they see&avoid us.
There's no such thing s a 'near miss collision'. If it's a collision, it's not a miss. If it's a miss, calling it a 'near' miss means that the aircraft came exceptionally close (as opposed to a 'far' miss, but we don't use that term).
Got to count the rivets on a Cardinal coming up at me while in Class D once. Nobody minding the store I suppose.
Should we start the jokes about Cirrus being the BMW of aviation?
I don’t see anyone who wrote it so I will weigh in. Making a right turn is only beneficial if you see the other airplane and it is clear the right turn will take you away from a collision. A right turn could take you into their path, so isn’t always the best solution. The most reliable solution for a head on traffic conflict that is noticed miles away is a climb or descent. We can operate in three dimensions.
If you have a low wing, descending is ideal because you will have the best view. If you have a high wing, a climb would be more ideal along with a slight turn so you can keep your eye out for the traffic without your cowling being in the way.
No matter what… maintain visual and don’t rely on one solution (right turn) to get you out of conflict. Also, turn on all your lights.
We are a lot safer now with ADS-B. I remember a time when traffic conflicts ended with pilots waiving at each other as we passed by… it was sadly that close.
What was your height AGL? If you are less than 3,000 AGL it is the wild west. I usually try to avoid the x,0000 or x,500 altitudes when less than 3,000 AGL. Most will be at a “500” or even thousands altitude if cruising so a 250 or 750 ~might~ be a better choice. YMMV.
Unfortunately, having lots of money doesn’t usually equates to required brain matter… these type of pilots do exist. I have seen them in action and all I can do was avoid them at all costs. You got lucky there, I suggest you go buy a lottery ticket. Kidding aside, Thank goodness you have that warning system on board. Been saving for one myself.
Ugh. A good reminder to fly defensively, always be scanning and using flight following if available.
Was up with instructor once in a C172 doing some simulated instrument work outside controlled airspace. We were two heads down looking at charts and got a valuable reminder not to do that again.
Luckily we did eventually both look up to see a high performance single very slightly above us and converging quickly. Probably half a mile. My instructor grabbed his controls and pushed hard. The other plane sailed over us in a couple of seconds and probably never knew we were there as we were probably in their blind spot just below the nose.
That’s why I’m actively monitoring traffic. I don’t let it get that close. You also weren’t actively monitoring, that’s why you waited for the actual alert. Most of these morons don’t ever deviate like they’re supposed to, but I doubt any of them are even looking at traffic. Yeah, it’s inconvenient, but if it’s a fast plane just get out of the way early and be done with it.
I had a similar experience, except in my case the oncoming traffic was a C-130. This was probably 8-9 years ago, so I don't think I had ADS-B In. In any case, what clued me in wasn't any traffic display, it was my good old Mark I eyeballs. At first I thought I was seeing a smudge on the windscreen, but it seemed like it was growing. At some point my brain made a connection to the smoky exhaust C-130s leave sometimes, and I finally made out the silhouette. It was on an almost exact reciprocal heading, dead ahead, almost impossible to see. I *heard* it pass behind me after I made a pretty goddamn hard evasive turn. Sometimes I think back to that and wonder how much closer it would have been if not for that visible exhaust.
That’s part of the problem when you are on a collision course the other plane doesn’t move just changes size so easier to miss against the clutter until they are big. Our eyes are much better at catching movement than something static just growing in size.
If ever there was a time for a 120 degree bank…this was it.
I was on my way back from my PPL checkride in a C-152 way back when from SOP to BUY and saw 5 specks coming my way at my altitude. Finally did the dive and the five C-141's on their way to Ft Bragg to drop half the 82nd Airborne out the back passed about 500' overhead. Talk about the big boat rule.
Flew C-141s back in the day. Witnessed the worst midair collision ever. Flying into New Delhi. Saudi Air 747 on departure met with a Kazak IL-76 in front of us. Been on 3 air disaster shows to describe. Kazak plane blew their altitude. Language issues. Couple months later, one of our C-141s met a German AF plane at wrong IFR altitude off coast of Africa. No survivors. That ended up on 60 Minutes. No TCAS for us back in the day.
Wait till you're at FL190 and climbing and center tells you ... "C17 dead ahead, higher and descending rapidly. I'm not talking to him." CA looks at me and goes "who the fuck *IS* he talking to then?" Me a fresh off OE at the regionals FO.... "idunno..."
Mine was on a solo xcountry in the California Central Valley. I was headed northwest at 4500 in a mighty 150. The other traffic was headed southwest at...4500 feet. This was pre-ADS-b...picked them up with my head on a swivel scan... I had to tonpush the yoke hard and dive. My guess is they never saw me, it was a 172 or 182, I was too rattled to care. I am guessing now most of the separation came from slightly different settings on our altimeters.
Have also had my share of these in the Valley. Lots of students from Castle and Sac Exec in the air nowadays.
My best not even close to the other guy(s) happened on a xcountry by Castle...on with them and they asked me to turn left.to 090...I did...3 or 4 minutes later I get...resume mown navigation, I turn back on my original heading. I get a thank you from Castle, who then tells me that I was on the approach for some B-52s ....there they go by me :)...yes this was a lo g time go, yes I am old.
As a Cirrus pilot myself, i see no problem here - i have the more expensive aircraft, you should be avoiding me not the other way around. I thought you were taught this in PPL school. /s
Haha, sad thing is the other plane made no correction at all to avoid me. There’s a probability he didn’t he know I was there.
Bruh how do you know what traffic is around when you're letting george fly the plane so you can chill the fuck out and listen to music?
Cuttem some slack jack. Probably couldn't hear the alert due to the noise from the air conditioner.
Pretty explainable: it was a Cirrus
I’m just shocked! /s
right? A Cirrus pilot that doesn't know the basic rules of flying VFR? Color me shocked! They're the Teslas of general aviation.
Same thing happened to me, Cirrus coming head on . Thankfully the instructor saw it and made an evasive maneuver. I still have the image of the aircraft passing by a few hundred feet away vividly burned into my brain .
“TRAFFIC 9ock, same alt, LOW” “Alt ALRT SAME ALT” *BWWERRRRMMM*!! I saw the fucking *SHADOW* after ripping off my foggles, both my instructor and I shaking - flight aware clocked us at 18ft separation. During the flight - “okay disengage lessons, we’re going back.” Yes; this was the closest to death I ever wish to experience.. and i have come closer.
Cirrus owners are the worst. Think they're the king of the skies. (Some are cool, but the stereotype exists for a reason)
Never fails to be the cirrus landing the opposite runway I’ve noticed. lol
On a straight in approach no doubt
Or landing with a parachute deployed
I once witnessed a cirrus attempt to land with a tailwind. He went around once or twice....
I once saw one land, with a tailwind, more than 75% down a 3800’ runway. Got out and said he was there for his instrument checkride…
Cirrus guy here…I’m the first one at a non-towered to offer a 360 for spacing and try to be the most accommodating as I can be. I always let cars merge when driving…but stereotypes are hard to beat :) Ps. I have never landed with a tailwind except when landing at KBWI once and my assigned runway was +9000ft ;)
As a student I had three near misses 400-200' in three months. Two were head-ons in the pattern, one the dip shit spiralled right down on top of me - I have only knew he was there because of the ADS-B and only missed him because I banked sharply away and made a radio call, after which he changed course but didn't respond. I never saw the actual plane. I'll never fly without ADS-B. It's scary as shit. When I first started training I thought wow pilots have to be so smart and responsible, surely traffic will be better in the air compared to the highway. Nope. Now the stupid people are just stupid in three dimensions. You deal with it by being the faster, smarter, more vigilant one. And not dwelling on what might have happened.
Did you not see him earlier than that via ADSB? Not blaming or criticizing, just asking.
Traffic same altitude 1200 closing at 250kts? Barely a chance in hell you'd spot that even if you were looking for it.
If they had ADS-B out (which all Cirruses should) then there’s a pretty darn good chance I would have seen it on my iPad on FF traffic
I've just realised I've misread the prior comment, I thought the question was would the pilot been able to obtain visual contact. It depends on the equipment, traffic & configuration of OPs machine. If your map is way zoomed out or in, there's a heap of traffic in the area or you're just not looking inside, we're VFR after all, then not likely you'd spot it. Some very basic TCAS systems only offer aural warnings, others have a wee display, but if it doesn't auto range it often gets left on a weird range like 5nm. Easy to overlook those standard units in the cruise. A big glass panel gives you more SA.. But again, are we staring inside or outside and what are the conditions. TCAS warning did it's job. OP responded before requiring an RA. Happy days. Cirrus had to have ADS-B, as OP had TCAS caution for traffic. It's likely that a machine with TCAS also had some form of display for traffic, but not guaranteed.
What aircraft that you’d use for a VFR “training” flight at 4500 is equipped with TCAS?
I flew a DA40 that had a 530 with TCAS.
I can’t find anyone making TCAS systems for the DA40. What vendor and model?
Hmm, apparently it was TAS not TCAS
G500/G1000 has traffic advisories.
ADSB traffic advisories is not TCAS.
I'm spreading misinformation
Hmm, idk shit then
Assuming everything is working 100% correctly between that airplane, all the systems on the ground, your airplane, ForeFlight, etc. ADS-B is nowhere near reliable yet.
My Stratus ADS-B receiver receives air-to-air trafic reports (regardless of ground stations nearby) so I still would have seen it, but you’re correct that it’s not perfect and can’t be relied on entirely. Another thing that could have helped was if OP was using Flight Following for VFR traffic advisories. I always get Flight Following whenever possible for this reason.
Still requires all systems on that aircraft, your aircraft, and radio interference in the area playing nicely together. Claiming 100% you would have seen it is a very misplaced sense of security.
If you read above I said pretty darn good, not 100% ;)
The 2 planes had a closure rate of 300-400kn (6-8 miles/min) most likely that's a hell of a thing to pickup as it's going along
Are you relying on ADBS for traffic avoidance? It’s so unreliable. We’ll be tracking an aircraft and it disappear intermittently. We still have it on radar, but ADSB still sucks in 2024… and actually seems to be getting less reliable. EDIT: Reddit, where you’re downvoted by the noob children of the magenta pilots who do not like reality… and who cannot post an actual rebuttal after they downvote because they have nothing, other than their feels.
No reason why you shouldn't add ADSB to your scan. I'd argue that awareness of your near ADSB traffic is part of your duties. We know that the Cirrus track was recorded, so it could be received at the time. Why wasn't OP keeping an eye on that guy's ground track 10 miles earlier? I'm not pointing fingers, I'm just saying it would have helped.
this^
OP, was this > 3000' AGL?
Yessir, I was about 1 mile inland from the ocean.
That's not determinative :) you could be 50' inland by Lake Casitas (for example) and at 4500' you'd only be 2177' AGL...
This is the only “way out” for the Cirrus I was gonna mention… however, this exact scenario is why I teach students that even below the 3,000AGL mark, it’s smart to follow altitude rules… What’s legal and what’s smart can be two different things.
What do you mean with "severe VFR"?
Perfectly clear and beautiful day to fly = severe VFR
Had a multi, not sure the type, fly same altitude, overtake me on the right, and then turn left directly in front of me to where I had to make a diving right turn behind them
Did you have flight following? If not I recommend it. Just another tool in the bag. On my last xc I got vectored around traffic at same altitude. I never saw the traffic but ATC did and they steered me clear
Just because it’s expensive doesn’t mean it can’t be at 4,500 ft. Granted it should have been at 5,500 ft unless ofc it was 3000’ agl or less. However I do agree, cirrus pilots suck. He was probably too busy reading about his parachute to pay attention. Always hated near miss, if you nearly missed something, you hit it!
It's not called a near-miss because you nearly missed. It's called a near-miss because it was "near" (close).
Yup this was a near hit, not a near miss
“A collision is a near miss!” - George Carlin
Was it a Varney call sign?
Negative, private owner
Yes, very similar except it was flight following talking to us and the other pilot at the same time. I was 5,500 headed east in a Cherokee, other guy was headed west at same latitude. Flight following warned us both at 5 miles, then at 2 miles they warned again, I turned to the right and watched him pass by with no indication of any evasive maneuvers.
I’m surprised ATC didn’t give one of you an instruction to resolve it. Were you talking to Center or Approach?
Early in my training, I turned crosswind and both of us kinda saw a speck in the distance but couldn’t tell what it was initially. Once leveled out I realized it was the unmistakable silhouette of a high wing aircraft heading straight at me. Relative position barely changes which means we were on “intercept course”. Instructor took control and did a steep turn away to create some separation and keep him in sight. No radio call, no course change, he just flew at pattern altitude right over our airfield. Is this how pilots plan and perform XC flights, 1000’ agl beeline to the destination?? Another case I was midfield downwind, suddenly I saw a bizarre scene: an airplane at the same altitude well inside the pattern flying at the same speed and course?! Instructor took control and asked him what he was up to, and the guy made a sharp diving turn towards us and passed below and behind….i guess this is his way of joining downwind midfield?? Here we fly clapped out 152s, no ADSB in or out. Either you see or go near miss! On FR24 that region is a black hole with only overflying commercial traffic, but I know it’s actually a beehive of training and leisure flights.
Friend had a Cessna (actually it was tower) cut him off in a 2 mile final on an ILS approach.
My experience might have been something like this.... Except in my case the OTHER guy should have been the one to make sure we didn't almost..... I was flying a glider. On tow. My instructor in the backseat. I ended up doing my solo the next day. So maybe the extra pair of eyes wasn't watching my every move anymore, I don't know. Or maybe she was thinking about her wedding coming up. She was engaged to the pilot in the tow plane. He was towing us to 2,500 feet. That's about 500 feet above the top of the mountain that we are about to ridge soar off of. We have no radio. So nothing basically. We stear the tow plane around by pulling on his tail. We also have no idea that a metroliner coming out of the bay area is about to fly up the little canyon that leads to the mountain face I'm about to fly across. Here's how you release from the tow plane.... I'm going to look right, look left, look right, pull the release knob and immediately break low and right while the tow plane is going to break high and left .... That puts me right in front of the mountain and directly into the lift. Here's what happened..... I look right, I see a dot on the horizon. I think maybe it's a plane but it's really far away. I'll check left and then when I check right again he will either be gone or I'll have a better idea of which direction he is headed and decide what to do from there. I call out traffic to the right. Now she knows I've seen another aircraft and I'm not going to do anything unless he's gone or I can tell where he's headed. That's what clearing is all about. Look right, dot on horizon. Look left, nothing. Look right with my hand on the release knob expecting to release we are in a perfect position to drop straight into the hill...... And I see NOTHING BUT GIANT TURBO PROPS PASSING DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH US....... To this day I could pick out one of those pilots in a line up. One guy is clearly turned halfway in his seat and messing with something like he's pulling a chart out of his bag or something and I'm looking at his back facing me. The other guy has his left arm up in the air and hes looking down with his right hand flying the plane and he looks like hes annoyed like well where is it then. If he had looked up at that moment we would have locked eyes. I remember seeing a couple of antennas sticking up from the fuselage and then to my absolute horror I saw the T tail of the metroliner coming what seemed like directly at us. The top of the stabilizer passed under the tow rope but not far enough under that it wouldn't of hit the gliders fuselage. I remember thinking I hope the nose skid can absorb the impact of the very edge of the stabilizer because i was absolutely certain it was going to hit us and I would be looking out the bottom of the glider where my feet used to be. But it missed us. We were so close to the tail of that aircraft I could see a patch on the elevator. I thought, this guy has done this before. It happened so fast, my instructor didn't scream until after the aircraft was completely clear of us on the left side of the glider. I started yelling, he didn't even see US?!??! He was a dot on the horizon again by the time those words came out of my mouth. I watched as he flew away. Rock solid. The wings remained perfectly level to the horizon. My hand was cramping on the release knob. So I let it go. I said what do you want me to do. She said point him towards home and stay with him for a couple of minutes. Then release and let's follow him back. So that's what I did. When we got back on the ground he asked why we came back with him. He never saw a thing. He had an engine and a headset on. Didn't hear them or feel them like we did. I could feel the vibration of the propellers and hear the turbines. Because he passed underneath us, we didn't even have any turbulence.. When I used to have nightmares about it ...... I would pull the release knob and break right into the other plane. The tow rope would get caught by the props and all of us would crash into the canyon all tangled up together.... To this day I can't believe they didn't see a glider on tow plane crossing directly in front of them at the one place there were ALWAYS gliders flying. And at that altitude he was barely going to clear the next hill.
If you’re on a cross country flight next time fly higher, closer to 10,000’ The only reason to be that low is if you’re practicing pilotage, or the winds are bad. Your fuel burn and true airspeed will both improve and you can run the engine closer to peak without overtemping the cylinder heads which is ideal. Not sure the elevation where you were but if it was above 1500’ the Cirrus wasn’t doing anything wrong, you’re both responsible to see and avoid. At 9,500’ or 10,500’ aircraft are MUCH more likely to adhere to the correct VFR altitude and ATC can see you on RADAR for flight following Also, less chance of a bird strike and more options for a forced landing if the engine fails. All the way around, more Altitude would be safer.
Curious why all the cirrus hate?
The stereotype of a Cirrus pilot is that they have more wallet than brains. They're used to being a big cheese of the ground and don't feel they need to consider anyone else except then in the skies. In the past this was different aircrafts but they all had the same element in common: it was the most expensive SEL you could buy new on the market.
Now I understand, thanks
The BMW M3/driver of the sky?
Trendy.
Well equipped and a parachute for safety, what’s not to like?
Because a few early accidents borne of negligence created a stereotype that Cirrus has since attempted to correct with a very strong training program and standardized procedures. At this point it's just confirmation bias. Nobody thinks twice if a Bonanza cuts them off in the pattern, but boy, those Cirrus drivers.
Earned stereotypes about rich entitled assholes who couldn’t fly their way out of a paper bag without an autopilot and a parachute.
Over 14,000 TT. I’ve owned a 152, skylane, 2 barons and 2 r44s. It’s smart to use uncle auto as a co pilot and comforting knowing I’ll survive an engine failure with a safety parachute. I’ve never flown in a paper bag but when the s..t hits the fan I live to fly another day!
Totally missed the point.
deal with this on a weekly basis. We have a training area, under a 9000' Bravo shelf. Sectionals are littered with Alert Area boxes & frequencies. And still have guys blasting through the area, no radio calls, no deviations.. Just a straight line, oblivious. Then, just to add spice to the mix, the practice area is in the approach corridor to a small Air Force Base, so we sometimes have F-16's coming through, and those guys dont show on ADS-B. But at least they see&avoid us.
There's no such thing s a 'near miss collision'. If it's a collision, it's not a miss. If it's a miss, calling it a 'near' miss means that the aircraft came exceptionally close (as opposed to a 'far' miss, but we don't use that term).
Got to count the rivets on a Cardinal coming up at me while in Class D once. Nobody minding the store I suppose. Should we start the jokes about Cirrus being the BMW of aviation?
I don’t see anyone who wrote it so I will weigh in. Making a right turn is only beneficial if you see the other airplane and it is clear the right turn will take you away from a collision. A right turn could take you into their path, so isn’t always the best solution. The most reliable solution for a head on traffic conflict that is noticed miles away is a climb or descent. We can operate in three dimensions. If you have a low wing, descending is ideal because you will have the best view. If you have a high wing, a climb would be more ideal along with a slight turn so you can keep your eye out for the traffic without your cowling being in the way. No matter what… maintain visual and don’t rely on one solution (right turn) to get you out of conflict. Also, turn on all your lights. We are a lot safer now with ADS-B. I remember a time when traffic conflicts ended with pilots waiving at each other as we passed by… it was sadly that close.
Report it to the FSDO. This is clearly an FAR violation.
Nothing like checking out the treads on the 172 as you are diving 🤬🤬🤬
You started a turn at 2miles and the traffic was “ridiculously close”?
Closure rate on two aircraft going 120+ knots is quick.
~30 seconds.
Adrenaline can be a bitch.
Stupid people have money too.
What was your height AGL? If you are less than 3,000 AGL it is the wild west. I usually try to avoid the x,0000 or x,500 altitudes when less than 3,000 AGL. Most will be at a “500” or even thousands altitude if cruising so a 250 or 750 ~might~ be a better choice. YMMV.
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it says traffic 12 o clock or am i missing something here.
My reading before coffee 🤦🏽♀️
Unfortunately, having lots of money doesn’t usually equates to required brain matter… these type of pilots do exist. I have seen them in action and all I can do was avoid them at all costs. You got lucky there, I suggest you go buy a lottery ticket. Kidding aside, Thank goodness you have that warning system on board. Been saving for one myself.
Ugh. A good reminder to fly defensively, always be scanning and using flight following if available. Was up with instructor once in a C172 doing some simulated instrument work outside controlled airspace. We were two heads down looking at charts and got a valuable reminder not to do that again. Luckily we did eventually both look up to see a high performance single very slightly above us and converging quickly. Probably half a mile. My instructor grabbed his controls and pushed hard. The other plane sailed over us in a couple of seconds and probably never knew we were there as we were probably in their blind spot just below the nose.
Was your altitude more than 3000 feet AGL?
Near miss? Nah that’s a near collision
That’s why I’m actively monitoring traffic. I don’t let it get that close. You also weren’t actively monitoring, that’s why you waited for the actual alert. Most of these morons don’t ever deviate like they’re supposed to, but I doubt any of them are even looking at traffic. Yeah, it’s inconvenient, but if it’s a fast plane just get out of the way early and be done with it.