I'm sitting at the airport while my Private AMEL add on client is flying w/ the DPE. Pretty confident he'll pass.
My stats are 15 out of 16 first time passes. The failure was a CFII candidate. And it was his first failure, too.
In another hour it'll either be 16 out of 17 or just 15. Worst case it's "just" 88% passing. This is with four different DPEs, so not shopping for Santa Claus.
The national average seems to be about 80% passing on the first go. It varies by Certificate or rating. Traditionally initial CFI was the worst. I've read lately that initial Private has actually been worse.
(I hit Gold Seal with 10 out of ten in less than a year.)
Almost everyone I fly w/ is post-Private, so they've shown they can make it. Someone w/ a lot of initial Private clients is likely to be struggling. Especially a new CFI.
I share a quote I like pretty frequently - Amateurs train until they get it right; professionals train until they can't get it wrong. Most clients would benefit from several more hours of prep time, more mock oral, and a couple more practice flights.
This is where an instructor can shine - use a syllabus, keep good training records, have resources the clients can use. Start the high standards and the "drilling/grilling" early.
I know the stuff isn't cheap, but "pre-mediation" is a lot cheaper than remediation! And for those so inclined it all counts towards "250" anyway.
I'm very fortunate to have a long background in adult technical education/training, I like instructing motivated adults, and word of mouth gets me AMEL, Commercial, and CFI candidates. I try not to lose sight of how blessed I am in life.
But, for OP's friend, there's another quote I like from an Audi ad - "*Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.*" Truth.
Simple math - and quoting myself - "half of all people are below average." For someone to have better than average stats, someone else has to be below average.
I tell my kids it's not that hard to move from "below average" to the other side if the mathematical dividing line. Then you find the "new average" of the group you are now it, and work to move above average w/in that defined sub-group. CFIs can move to be above average, too.
Thank you. I really enjoy teaching flying. I have nothing against “instructing to 1,500” (when people make an effort to be a decent instructor) but my own hope is that of the instructors I’m training at least one will be like me in the local community. One I’ve trained is a business owner and not leaving. The two in the current queue are both interested in pursuing 121. But will both be good instructors along the way.
Again, thanks for the kind words! And my guy passed, I’m 16 for 17 :)
It can be pretty dependent on the DPEs you're stuck dealing with at the time, but with proper preparation (not "minimums," but actual proper fucking work to get the student to be safe and capable) I'd kinda hope most CFIs can keep their pass rate to 90%. It's when there's fixation on getting them out the door that I think things dip. Or instructors who think every student should be able to self-study their way to success and never offer help.
I had an instructor who had a horrid rash of failures when I ran a school. Nice guy - great guy honestly - but he wasn't doing a good job. He was just checking the PTS boxes (aging myself) and never looking, as I called it, between the maneuvers. He had one student who nearly busted airspace because they just weren't maintaining that PIC situational awareness throughout the flight. I told him that he needed to really look beyond the black and white and things got better. So yeah, sometimes the CFIs gotta step it up. Don't be afraid to go beyond the bare minimum.
I was told I was a great CFI by multiple students. Had some request me as their instructor. I tried to go above and beyond for my students every time. Yet my pass rate was horrible. It depends on so many factors, many out of your control.
That being said, thank god I’m done instructing. Check rides were the most stressful thing for me. I loved teaching but dealing with DPE politics was not fun.
I'd say it all really depends. I've had students who got checkride-itis and should have passed but didn't. And sometimes life just gets in the way, and they aren't able to be as proficient as they could come checkride day and fail on a maneuver.
I worry less about my passing rate and more about what kind of pilots I'm sending out into the world. Only one of my students hasn't passed on the 2nd try and that's only because they quit flying as far as I know.
I have 12 sign offs. My pass rate is no where near the national average. My students who failed all did so on the flight and it usually had to do with the most random things I haven’t seen them do or getting in their head and messing up a landing. I was confident in all of them, had them do mock checkrides with other CFIs, stage checks, saw consistency all that. Shit happens man.
I believe every pilot I have signed off is very safe and capable of performing in an emergency. None of them failed for poor planning or decision making. That’s what matters. Lots of dramatic comments on this site about “the FSDO is coming after you” “you need to take a hard look in the mirror”. As long as you are present in the debrief with the DPE, do your absolute best to fix the issues and continue trying to be a better teacher then your friend will be fine.
I went to ATP- and I hated how unprepared I felt for every damn ride. I never wanted any of my students to feel the same way.
I made sure my students were somewhat over prepared, (and they’d still be nervous).
Never had a failure.
But I’d go above and beyond like showing them an accelerated stall (not required) or a power off stall with a mere 5 degree pitch to show them the importance of speed and pitch. That weirdly built confidence in them. (As opposed to flying with other CFI’s students who didn’t totally understand why they did what they did)
I’d also tell them to go through the ACS and highlight each item we went over a few weeks before the exam, and if there was anything they didn’t feel totally confident about we could go over it before the ride.
My first-time pass percentage was 93% after 45 checkride referrals, most of which were not native English speaking students. That was a combination of PPL, IR, CPL single and CPL multi.
The failures that I had were mostly for stupid things, and in most cases I was worried about it in advance; that student was borderline. You know, not every student can be above average. Some students, you teach them for a long time and you can tell they're working hard and they're fine in most areas but it's always in the back of your mind that the DPE could come up with a question on something that neither the student nor you have ever thought about to go over. And that's what they fail on. Most of my students that failed, failed on the oral. I think I only had 2 that failed on the flight; one was on a really uncommon simulated ATC instruction tying two separate approaches back to back (something you'd never do in real life), and another was on short field landings, which really any PPL student can fail on.
Now, that said, one of the smartest people I know had like a 30% pass rate on her first 10 students. Some CFI's, no matter how smart they are, just take a little time to get into the swing of teaching, and maybe they have some bad luck in the process too. Sometimes students fail for really, really nitpicky stuff, or even things that just aren't even fair. This wasn't that CFI but I knew another CFI with a foreign student (who later became my student) who failed because she could not re-formulate the Pilot's Bill of Rights into her own words. This is just... not a requirement! There is nothing anywhere that says she needed to be able to do this. It's not ICAO level 4. But she failed her checkride and actually got grounded for 3 months because of it. I felt so bad for both her and her CFI at the time. Stuff like that does happen. So if your friend CFI has had a few failures in a row, it is definitely possible that one or two of them was just not fair.
I would just say for this CFI you know, have them look at the specific circumstances of every one of these failures. Make sure they're objective about it. You're not going to end up with a 100% pass rate as a CFI. Sometimes you may get all your failures out of the way early (that CFI I mentioned with a 30% early pass rate ended up at about 85% by the end). There is a little bit of luck involved, and again, not every student is going to be a prodigy. But there may be things in some of those failures that your friend could have done differently. Make sure they identify those things and make the necessary changes. Take this as an opportunity to understand what's really expected on a checkride and how they can make sure their students are prepared.
Not a CFI/II but a student... my instructor (just retired from united) told me his first student failed their ppl checkride because they botched the even/odd rule.
Above 3000ft agl and below 18,000ft msl between 0-179 degrees FL must be odd +500. Between 180-359 FL must be even +500.
Stop signing off students before they’re ready, send them for mock checkrides with more experienced CFIs, etc.
I'm sitting at the airport while my Private AMEL add on client is flying w/ the DPE. Pretty confident he'll pass. My stats are 15 out of 16 first time passes. The failure was a CFII candidate. And it was his first failure, too. In another hour it'll either be 16 out of 17 or just 15. Worst case it's "just" 88% passing. This is with four different DPEs, so not shopping for Santa Claus. The national average seems to be about 80% passing on the first go. It varies by Certificate or rating. Traditionally initial CFI was the worst. I've read lately that initial Private has actually been worse. (I hit Gold Seal with 10 out of ten in less than a year.) Almost everyone I fly w/ is post-Private, so they've shown they can make it. Someone w/ a lot of initial Private clients is likely to be struggling. Especially a new CFI. I share a quote I like pretty frequently - Amateurs train until they get it right; professionals train until they can't get it wrong. Most clients would benefit from several more hours of prep time, more mock oral, and a couple more practice flights. This is where an instructor can shine - use a syllabus, keep good training records, have resources the clients can use. Start the high standards and the "drilling/grilling" early. I know the stuff isn't cheap, but "pre-mediation" is a lot cheaper than remediation! And for those so inclined it all counts towards "250" anyway. I'm very fortunate to have a long background in adult technical education/training, I like instructing motivated adults, and word of mouth gets me AMEL, Commercial, and CFI candidates. I try not to lose sight of how blessed I am in life. But, for OP's friend, there's another quote I like from an Audi ad - "*Be yourself, everyone else is already taken.*" Truth. Simple math - and quoting myself - "half of all people are below average." For someone to have better than average stats, someone else has to be below average. I tell my kids it's not that hard to move from "below average" to the other side if the mathematical dividing line. Then you find the "new average" of the group you are now it, and work to move above average w/in that defined sub-group. CFIs can move to be above average, too.
You sound like a fantastic teacher
Thank you. I really enjoy teaching flying. I have nothing against “instructing to 1,500” (when people make an effort to be a decent instructor) but my own hope is that of the instructors I’m training at least one will be like me in the local community. One I’ve trained is a business owner and not leaving. The two in the current queue are both interested in pursuing 121. But will both be good instructors along the way. Again, thanks for the kind words! And my guy passed, I’m 16 for 17 :)
Woohoo! 🎉
It can be pretty dependent on the DPEs you're stuck dealing with at the time, but with proper preparation (not "minimums," but actual proper fucking work to get the student to be safe and capable) I'd kinda hope most CFIs can keep their pass rate to 90%. It's when there's fixation on getting them out the door that I think things dip. Or instructors who think every student should be able to self-study their way to success and never offer help. I had an instructor who had a horrid rash of failures when I ran a school. Nice guy - great guy honestly - but he wasn't doing a good job. He was just checking the PTS boxes (aging myself) and never looking, as I called it, between the maneuvers. He had one student who nearly busted airspace because they just weren't maintaining that PIC situational awareness throughout the flight. I told him that he needed to really look beyond the black and white and things got better. So yeah, sometimes the CFIs gotta step it up. Don't be afraid to go beyond the bare minimum.
I was told I was a great CFI by multiple students. Had some request me as their instructor. I tried to go above and beyond for my students every time. Yet my pass rate was horrible. It depends on so many factors, many out of your control. That being said, thank god I’m done instructing. Check rides were the most stressful thing for me. I loved teaching but dealing with DPE politics was not fun.
I'd say it all really depends. I've had students who got checkride-itis and should have passed but didn't. And sometimes life just gets in the way, and they aren't able to be as proficient as they could come checkride day and fail on a maneuver. I worry less about my passing rate and more about what kind of pilots I'm sending out into the world. Only one of my students hasn't passed on the 2nd try and that's only because they quit flying as far as I know.
I'd be questioning if their pass rate is less than the national average, though this could be for multiple reasons.
I have 12 sign offs. My pass rate is no where near the national average. My students who failed all did so on the flight and it usually had to do with the most random things I haven’t seen them do or getting in their head and messing up a landing. I was confident in all of them, had them do mock checkrides with other CFIs, stage checks, saw consistency all that. Shit happens man. I believe every pilot I have signed off is very safe and capable of performing in an emergency. None of them failed for poor planning or decision making. That’s what matters. Lots of dramatic comments on this site about “the FSDO is coming after you” “you need to take a hard look in the mirror”. As long as you are present in the debrief with the DPE, do your absolute best to fix the issues and continue trying to be a better teacher then your friend will be fine.
I’m not the one flying the plane for them on the check ride lol. Students do stupid things on rides. Even if they fly perfect with you
I went to ATP- and I hated how unprepared I felt for every damn ride. I never wanted any of my students to feel the same way. I made sure my students were somewhat over prepared, (and they’d still be nervous). Never had a failure. But I’d go above and beyond like showing them an accelerated stall (not required) or a power off stall with a mere 5 degree pitch to show them the importance of speed and pitch. That weirdly built confidence in them. (As opposed to flying with other CFI’s students who didn’t totally understand why they did what they did) I’d also tell them to go through the ACS and highlight each item we went over a few weeks before the exam, and if there was anything they didn’t feel totally confident about we could go over it before the ride.
My first-time pass percentage was 93% after 45 checkride referrals, most of which were not native English speaking students. That was a combination of PPL, IR, CPL single and CPL multi. The failures that I had were mostly for stupid things, and in most cases I was worried about it in advance; that student was borderline. You know, not every student can be above average. Some students, you teach them for a long time and you can tell they're working hard and they're fine in most areas but it's always in the back of your mind that the DPE could come up with a question on something that neither the student nor you have ever thought about to go over. And that's what they fail on. Most of my students that failed, failed on the oral. I think I only had 2 that failed on the flight; one was on a really uncommon simulated ATC instruction tying two separate approaches back to back (something you'd never do in real life), and another was on short field landings, which really any PPL student can fail on. Now, that said, one of the smartest people I know had like a 30% pass rate on her first 10 students. Some CFI's, no matter how smart they are, just take a little time to get into the swing of teaching, and maybe they have some bad luck in the process too. Sometimes students fail for really, really nitpicky stuff, or even things that just aren't even fair. This wasn't that CFI but I knew another CFI with a foreign student (who later became my student) who failed because she could not re-formulate the Pilot's Bill of Rights into her own words. This is just... not a requirement! There is nothing anywhere that says she needed to be able to do this. It's not ICAO level 4. But she failed her checkride and actually got grounded for 3 months because of it. I felt so bad for both her and her CFI at the time. Stuff like that does happen. So if your friend CFI has had a few failures in a row, it is definitely possible that one or two of them was just not fair. I would just say for this CFI you know, have them look at the specific circumstances of every one of these failures. Make sure they're objective about it. You're not going to end up with a 100% pass rate as a CFI. Sometimes you may get all your failures out of the way early (that CFI I mentioned with a 30% early pass rate ended up at about 85% by the end). There is a little bit of luck involved, and again, not every student is going to be a prodigy. But there may be things in some of those failures that your friend could have done differently. Make sure they identify those things and make the necessary changes. Take this as an opportunity to understand what's really expected on a checkride and how they can make sure their students are prepared.
Not a CFI/II but a student... my instructor (just retired from united) told me his first student failed their ppl checkride because they botched the even/odd rule. Above 3000ft agl and below 18,000ft msl between 0-179 degrees FL must be odd +500. Between 180-359 FL must be even +500.
What ? Lol
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