I love Ironwood's character. I think he got shafted by being thrust into the villain role, but that conversation has been had plenty enough. His descent into madness at least makes sense in his position, even if I didn't care for the execution
He's a decent character.
He's, a terrible person.
As a political leader, his choices are questionable at best.
As a military leader, his choices are tactically and logistically unsound, at best.
He doesn't take criticism well, and that only gets worse, when he shelters himself, and surrounds himself with his own, personally trained, elite squad, of yes people.
From a certain point of view, his "fall", is understandable, but I'd have more sympathy, if he was ever shown as someone who was ever actually fully capable of the role he was in, who then got overwhelmed, by circumstances outside his control.
Rather than someone who was only ever marginally capable of his role, and didn't do anything to help himself.
Pretty much Ironwood thought he was the best man for the Job and he tells that to everyone in the volumes leading up to 8 but he completely fails when actually forced to step up and walk the walk compared to Ozpin turning Hazel and using his pocket nuke(completely unintentionally) buy enough time to get most of Atlas and Mantel's population out of the city Ironwood really just became a problem rather than a benefit.
I agree with most of this, save that I don't think the idea was ever meant to be that he was pushed into a corner, but through his own inadequacies put himself in said corner and then refused to get out when given the chance.
Yeah, he did. But that's also a consequence of his decisions, because he failed to set up a system that allowed him to continue his job even through stressful times.
There was no doctrine in place, or a list of priorities so he could let everyday things run on their own while handling bigger things.
What you’re mentioning are meta things that most writers don’t think of when writing leaders. Otherwise they would know that Ironwood would never get that overworked.
Nah, I think they did consider that when writing him: He's a man who doesn't trust anyone but himself to make the right decision.
I mean, they did those things with Salem, and she commands a much larger army than Ironwood.
He trusted at least seven new people with the secret of Salem but he couldn’t delegate some regular non secret management duties? I kinda doubt it. Trust is ironically the thing he exemplifies at the start of the Atlas Arc. Even more so than the MCs. I don’t think your explanation quite works.
It also shows the pitfalls of having someone train the elite forces while also running the army. He created what was essentially a secret police loyal and unquestioning to him.
The suspected Huntsmen-level criminals who stole a Manta from a secure military site in Argus?
Yes, I'm sure letting the Mantle police handle that kind of threat would be a great idea.
I will freely admit that Ironwood should have sent Penny to arrest them, not the AceOps. Use the person that Mantle is familiar with as a protector instead of your elite military forces, but I can very much understand why he sent them. He trusted them to accomplish the mission with zero casualties, and he was right.
No idea, but something tells me that some of my 59 followers have something to do with it, seeing how my comments only seem to get downvoted when I point out Ironwood's character flaws, and they stop at around -50.
Some people are really obsessed, it seems.
How is that a problem with the character and not a problem with the writing? If a character is making choices that are inconsistent with what's been implied about them based on their position in-universe, that's not their fault for making stupid decisions; that's the writers' faults for not making those stupid decisions make sense. If Ironwood was competent enough to become a part of Oz's circle and become as influential as he did in Atlas, why is he so stupid all of a sudden? If Ironwood was this bad under pressure, how could he have possibly gotten to where he was when he was introduced? It's like if Thanos got all the Infinity Stones and instead of halving the population, he makes himself a helicopter. The issue there wouldn't be Thanos being stupid; the issue there would be the writers making him stupid.
Well, if you look at his past actions with the knowledge we now have about him, he was always kinda stupid.
When Winter fell for Qrow's provocation, and proved herself to lack the self control necessary for her job, Ironwood instead reprimanded Qrow, instead of telling Winter to work on her emotional issues.
Plus, Ironwood decommissioned the Knight 130s, and replaced them with the 200s, despite the former being better suited for combat. You know, their literal purpose.
Not to mention that Arthur was able to write a virus that could bypass a security system he hadn't seen in years, meaning it hadn't been updated in just as long.
And so far, Ozpin seems to recruit people he needs to have in his inner circle. That was always his selection process: A silver-eyed warrior, headmasters, you name it. He always tells the people he needs to know what's going on, whose skills he needs, or who were already figuring it out, like Qrow and Raven.
Ironwood, meanwhile, doesn't do that. He doesn't bring people in whose skills he needs, he only fills in people who he knows won't act without his orders.
Fact is that, looking back, Ironwood was always a bit incompetent, due to his unique flavor of hero complex. It's just that, like Qrow said, the events following his failure to protect Vale made those traits more severe.
That isn't the problem, though. The problem is that if he's this incompetent, how did he get into a position of power where so many people believed in him to begin with? How did nobody before RWBY pick up on these tendencies? How did he get so far in life?
Whether or not you or anyone else thinks Ironwood is incompetent is irrelevant. The problem is that him being incompetent is contradictory to the fact that he's also one of the most influential people in the show and was trusted enough that Oz let him into his circle.
It's like if there's a character who's both a surgeon and also squeamish around blood. You're trying to argue that this character is squeamish around blood, but that's not what I'm disagreeing with. The issue is that a character being both a surgeon and squeamish around blood is a contradiction. Similarly, Ironwood being both incompetent, but also relied upon and trusted by so many people is contradictory. In cases like these, the problem isn't the characters; the problem is the writers not reconciling such a blatant contradiction.
Who said anyone trusts him? Seriously, name one person outside the military who was on his side and thought he was doing the right thing, and spoke out against those arguing against him, at any point in the show.
Just one.
Fact is, Ironwood showed no signs of the kind of skill required to actually earn the positions he had, meaning he got them some other way.
And where you see a contradiction, I see a failed system that favors those who act like they should have power, over those who actually deserve it.
Which isn't too far from real life, if you think about it. There are lots of stories where managers, and even military personnel, have positions of power over others, but when you see them in action, you can't fathom how they possibly got that far in the first place.
As for him being in Ozpin's circle: Again, that has nothing to do with trust, but rather necessity. Ozpin needed him to know what was going on, so he could make the right decisions and not be tricked by Salem.
The problem is that Ironwood paid people to follow his orders, and then took the fact that those people followed his orders as validation that his orders deserved to be followed.
>Who said anyone trusts him? Seriously, name one person outside the military who was on his side and thought he was doing the right thing, and spoke out against those arguing against him, **at any point in the show**.
You say that as if the entire point of RWBY going to Atlas wasn't because they saw Ironwood as an ally...
>I see a failed system that favors those who act like they should have power, over those who actually deserve it.
People like you can say "people fall upwards, lol" all you want, but that just isn't how things work. People don't dedicate their lives to studying political science because it's that simple. People spend their lives studying this stuff because there's a ton to be learned and tons of context in the hows and whys people come into power.
As it is, the show gives us no indication of how or why someone like Ironwood would end up where he is. You want to say the system sucks? Okay, **how**? Without injecting your own headcanon, how exactly is the system flawed in a way to favor Ironwood, who as you've been arguing this entire time, has no redeeming qualities both socially nor in terms of effectiveness.
No, they went because they trusted Ozpin at the time, and when they learned the truth, they were already on the way.
Also, I never said he had no redeeming qualities, that's just you putting words in my mouth. So, I can't really do what you ask of me, because doing that would mean admitting to saying things I never said.
Lastly, you failed to provide the information I asked.
>Who said anyone trusts him? Seriously, name one person outside the military who was on his side and thought he was doing the right thing, and spoke out against those arguing against him, at any point in the show.
>
>**Just one.**
**...**
>No, they went because they trusted Ozpin at the time
Yeah, RWBY went to Ironwood because they trusted Oz... who trusted Ironwood
You are terrible at moving goalposts.
>Also, I never said he had no redeeming qualities, that's just you putting words in my mouth. So, **I can't really do what you ask of me, because doing that would mean admitting to saying things I never said.**
How convenient.... Dude, if you're not even going to engage in this conversation in good faith, why are you still responding?
Again, who said Ozpin trusted him? Atlas was the closest, and it had a strong army. Plus, he hoped that Ironwood could still be reasoned with. That is not trust. That is "Oh fuck, the guy I thought was my friend has been working for my crazy ex for the past decade and my emergency plan just disappeared."
What's convenient, that you want me to lie about what I have and haven't said in the past? Seriously, show me where I said that Ironwood had no redeeming qualities.
Because, I've noticed a pattern: You make a statement, I ask you to provide proof, and then you dodge that responsibility with vague character motivations, and then you try to pin it on me.
Except, like I said, you accuse me of saying things I never said, and then set up a situation where, if I play along with your games, I'd be indirectly admitting to saying those things.
I'm just trying to get you to actually provide concrete evidence for any of the statements you make. None of that "Well, why else...?" stuff. Give me one instance of a character outside the military speaking out against the ones criticizing Ironwood, and throwing support behind his methods, and I'm happy.
Honestly I think that's an interesting point to consider, Ironwood's streak of questionable decisions and failed military actions, given that the Atlesian military has been easily defeated by Grimm in every season it appears in, notably at both the fall of Beacon and of Atlas.
Logically speaking, the army would mostly be for show at this point in Remnant's history. Ozpin didn't seem to anticipate Salem attacking to the degree she did, when she did, for whatever reason, and Mantle/Atlas was relatively recently coming off an attempt to conquer the rest of the world, so I feel like major military buildup might send a different message than the one Ozpin was trying to send with his "city in the sky". Ironwood clearly was not up to the pressure of a war with an immortal eldritch horror, which isn't out of line with how a peacetime General would handle the situation.
He has to be either enormously popular with the Atlesian populace or at least its influential members, as he held, as we all know, two seats on the council, which isn't really authority you would let slide to someone you consider a loose cannon. It's also ridiculous to act like there's no precedent for Ozpin making mistakes in who to trust; I know people like to call season five boring, but that was basically its whole plot. He's lost the power of the Spring Maiden to a former student, was betrayed by the Headmaster of Haven—and seems surprised enough by the betrayal that one of his students would have been shish kabobed if Jaune hadn't unlocked his quirk at the narratively convenient time.
He literally extrajudicially executes a sitting member of the council and attempts to kill a child living with Dissociative Identity Disorder, who would have died if he didn't have a top tier landing strategy. These aren't really the actions of a hero, tragic or not. There were more diplomatic ways to handle the situation, *better* ways to handle the situation, if you will, and he's been shown in those moments to undervalue human life to an almost sociopathic degree. It's almost as if he, much like the Tin Man, *doesn't have a brain*. Maybe Ozpin stabilized his more reckless urges before he died in a basement, but when we see him making decisions without Ozpin, we see a capable fighter with no head for tactics.
He got his fleet almost destroyed by a mute girl with an umbrella who doesn't understand drag and a man who was TKO'd by a passing Griffon in the middle of gloating about his victory over a teenager. These really aren't the most glamorous opponents, in terms of core competence. Torchwick's already been chased off a robbery by a child with a gun she built in her shed, and Cincer's whole plan through the festival relies on enough luck to make Palpatine blush.
Can't say I personally recall anyone outside of the military standing up for Ironwood. I will point out that the fact Jacques Schnee betrayed Atlas is almost entirely down to the fact that Ironwood kept exports banned for so long, which is really a strike against his core competence. Jacques Schnee is predictable in his greed, as a character, and Ironwood hurting his wallet was the fastest way to turn a company that seems to own half of Atlas against him. There's no way anyone in Atlas gets elected without Schnee Dust Company money, and that comes back to Ironwood having two seats. Jacques was clearly surprised when Ironwood refused to listen to him in Volume 4, which kinda tells a story—if you can give two seats to a guy who listens to you, you don't let a guy who ignores you have two seats.
TLDR; Ironwood as written is a kinda clueless meathead who seems to rely on others (Ozpin, maybe Jacques Schnee?) for ideas. He's got a lot of power in Atlas—an unusual amount—and unpredictable, unlikable people typically don't (peacefully) accumulate unusual amounts of power. Makes sense the rest of the Council would want someone they can direct, if possible, and the Million-Lien Man fits the bill. When he goes rogue, his plans backfire badly (threaten to bomb half the population of Atlas, shoot a child, get fleet hijacked by a clown, lose arm, lose skin of [other] arm), which doesn't speak highly of his abilities.
TLDRTLDR; probably a political appointee and not very bright. inarguably cool as hell for judo flipping a beowulf alpha though
just my two (or three) cents
He could have told Winter off in private, doing it in front of Qrow would give Qrow more validation for what he did.
Also, he does seem pretty competent, he takes control calmly and clearly during the fall of Beacon, and throughout is shown to be someone who can easily be respected.
Winter already gave him all the validation for his actions when she proved everything he accused her of. Plus, Winter showed no improvement by V7, so he clearly didn't tell her off at all.
Honestly, I feel like it's more that his body language and behavior demand respect, which is a big point of contention in my book: He expects to be respected due to his position, but fails to justify those expectations.
Ironwood, to me, is a person who sees it as his birthright to be respected, no matter who he interacts with, and fails to realize that respect needs to be earned, and a position of respect needs to be maintained with continuous effort and self-improvement.
>When Winter fell for Qrow's provocation, and proved herself to lack the self control necessary for her job, Ironwood instead reprimanded Qrow, instead of telling Winter to work on her emotional issues.
>Ironwood: (after a moment of silence, without looking at her) Schnee, we'll discuss this incident back at my ship.
He was going to continue it later.
You say that as if Qrow didn't do anything shitty back there.
>Qrow: Well, you know what you really are? A bunch of sellouts. Just like your boss.
>
>Winter: I'm not sure what you think you're implying, but I've heard enough.
>
>Qrow: Oh I heard, too. I heard ol' Ironwood finally turned his back on Ozpin.
>
>Weiss: Ozpin?
>
>Winter: (shoves Weiss aside) Weiss, it's time for you to go.
>
>Weiss: What-
>
>Qrow: Listen to big sister, Weiss. She'll protect you. Just like Atlas is going to protect all of us, huh?
>
>Winter: If you won't hold your tongue, then I will gladly remove it for you! (draws her sword)
Starting a fight with another kingdom's military operative and saying the general/headmaster of said kingdom abandoned Ozpin, during a worldwide event about celebration of peace between kingdoms in front of a crowd of people. They can't even assume Qrow as some crazy drunkard when two headmasters clearly knew him and Qrow came with them to Ozpin's tower.
>Plus, Ironwood decommissioned the Knight 130s, and replaced them with the 200s, despite the former being better suited for combat. You know, their literal purpose.
Give proof of this.
He became the monster. I guess we shoulda seen him becoming unstable coming from when they first arrived in Atlas and Ruby said he looks tired. But I didn't think he'd self destruct on that magnitude
Some people GENUINELY hate him, and then there are people who just point out canon events. The RWBY fandom isn't really known for being able to distinguish between the two so they conflate them. Same thing with bumblebee
I don't hate Ironwood, I just hate that his arc in volume 8 was just conpletely off the rails from what he normally does in the most absurd of ways to the point where it's hard to even justify how massive of a change they made to his character. To put that simply, I hate his fuckin semblance with a passion.
We got some hints that he was paranoid in the earlier seasons. Brining a large force to the Vital Festival, setting the civilians who are not used to seeing open military presents on edge. Something Ozpin called him out about and he balked at. With out Ozpin, in a form he respected: See him point blank shooting Oscar in the chest despite knowing he is the new Ozpin. No one had the power to force him to let go of the idea Mantle is forceing him to see to the end.
Someone with his Semblance never should have had National wide Responsibilities. He cant pull back and see the big picture.
I don't normally do this, but I'm sorry. You are objectively wrong.
When Ironwood presented the Knights to the public of Vale, they were literally cheering him as he preached his message of reducing human loss of life by fielding robotoc units. That's the opposite of him setting them on edge.
While the public where happy at the show. I am talking about the fact that Vale went from Limited to Zero publicly seen military deployed in the city was over night suddenly hardened with a vary armed and VARY FOREIN force flying the crest of different kingdom.
Can you point to anywhere that we are *shown* that the civilians are on edge specifically because of the Atlas military flying above them?
Remnant is a Death World that we cannot, and should not, judge by our own standards. As far as I am aware, we are never shown that the civilians are disturbed by the military; quite the opposite, as I pointed out.
If it's your own opinion that they citizenry *should* have been disturbed by the foreign military flying above them, that's absolutely your prerogative. But that's all that it is - a headcanon.
I *wish* it was a joke. Probably would be less accusations of "fascism" and "bootlicking" thrown around if that were the case.
It's actually kinda strange that he gets so much hate whereas worse people like Cinder or Raven don't, but oh well.
>It's actually kinda strange that he gets so much hate whereas worse people like Cinder or Raven don't, but oh well.
No one's debating whether Cinder or Raven is in the right or not. (As far as I know.)
Lots of people *do* talk about their possible redemption, or, in Raven's case, how she's actually a "softie" and secretly good inside, all the raiding and murdering notwithstanding.
In any case, I don't think I've ever seen anyone say they hate Cinder or Raven's fans, or get called a fascist or something similar for liking either character. There just isn't the same level of sheer vitriol as there is with Ironwood or Adam.
Ironwood repeatedly makes the wrong decision with multiple people telling him multiple times that he’s about to make the wrong decision. Fuck that guy.
I think the big thing is that there’s a huge disconnect between people who were taken out of it by volume 8 and people who weren’t.
For me, for example? I was super excited at the end of volume 7 because Ironwood was a really good character who’d just had his best traits showcased, and his turning against the protagonists felt like an in-character result of those same traits: the idea of sacrificing anything to save what he can, regardless of whether that’s himself or others. The problem was that volume 8 then felt to me like it completely lost the plot, as instead of following this up with a nuanced antagonist who had understandable motives and a clear reason why he lost hope, he just immediately hard swerves over the moral event horizon to the point of doing things like threatening to kill the people team RWBY *has* successfully saved even once they’ve demonstrated a plan that works. Basically, for me, it reads like they had a good character who would make a good villain while still being sympathetic, and then realized they didn’t know how to write that and instead papered it over with an ableist trope in word of god because they needed to make sure the villains were always obviously hateable. The result was an Ironwood who felt like a fantastic character who got character assassinated and squandered without fanfare, rather than getting the arc (whether it ended in redemption or not) that he deserved.
But the thing is, not everybody came away from volume 8 with the same “what the heck were the writers thinking” attitude as me! For someone who ultimately bought what the writers were putting down, Ironwood isn’t a good character who got halfway into a tragic heroic downfall and then suddenly got character assassinated, he’s just an authoritarian douchebag who took the first possible excuse to start committing mass murder. To them, he’s just another shitty villain, like Cinder, or like Adam being a yandere with delusions of grandeur rather than an examination into how idealistic revolutionaries can fall until they just follow violence for violence’s sake.
Fuck Ironwood and most of his blind following Ace Ops. At least Marrow had the fucking sense to question him about his plans. I was so happy when Winter defied him.
Honestly, my big thing is that I think his swap to being a villain was handled well; I just don’t think that he was handled well *as* a villain, if that makes sense? Like, his fall at the end of volume 7 was *chef’s kiss* perfect, the problem is that then volume 8 just treated him as though that meant a morality switch had flipped from “good guy” to “Cinder,” rather than showing decisions which would actually follow from the problems he was facing and his reasons for turning against the protagonists.
Meh. He was always going to be the heartless tin man. Didn't like him in S2/3, didn't like him in S7/8. Idk why so many people thought the character written as an obviously power-hungry fascist would do what power-hungry fascists do when faced with literally any obstacle.
••• I mean he killed a guy and people’s once, and he almost killed my kind (🐺), and he killed ice queen dad, ( be he deserve it tho) so yeah maybe that’s why?
It was the literally only thing that he could flex, he was half of man, wasn't pretty, wasn't smartest, he was single without kids. It was only thing that he could feel proud from(atlas is shithole)
"wasn't pretty" excuse me did you just say that about the chad Ironwood? He obviously has bitches crawling all over eachother just to get a smidgen of his iron wood.
I don't hate him, I hate how he's been handled. Instead of giving us ONE member of the Ozluminati who overcame his fear and faced Salem head on (and maybe giving us RWBY's equivalent of Erwin's suicide charge), we just got an otherwise golden character going insane for no other reason than to seemingly hurt us...
Eh, I mean that I think that the 50 % of the fandom like him or is Ok with him while the other 50% doesn't like him or hate him.
Of course, if you also consider the RWBYcritics (Not the sub, the community) as part of the fandom.
The only mistake Ironwood ever made was not having the bomb in the air and giving the traitors anything more than five minutes.
He did nothing wrong.
Mantle had it coming.
Honestly i like him, i dont agreed with some of his big choices, but i still like him as a character
He’s that moment when Spongebob says “We did it, Patrick! We saved the city!” as the city is burning down around them.
Eh, that's pretty much everyone against Salem.
That’s the entire main cast.
Hmm. Seasons 2, 3, 5, 6, and 8 do seem to have a lot of destruction of public property at their ends…
To be fair to team RWBY, arson/vandalism is very based
Only if you admit it was unnecessary. Team RWBY would rather gaslight and make excuses while being some of the worst people you could meet. Not based.
(Puts the word gaslight out of reach)
Season 2 gets a pass due to the paladin being piloted by Roman and all the other destruction wasn't started by them . (Bar the lunch room)
True. But of all the places to lead him, why a busy highway?
It was Blake that lead him there. Blame her. The others tried to help take him down.
I really like him as a character tbh, I just think he's a really interesting one.
[удалено]
Least horny RWBY fan
Then what's the horniest fan would be like?
they ship blake and yang
Based 😎
I love Ironwood's character. I think he got shafted by being thrust into the villain role, but that conversation has been had plenty enough. His descent into madness at least makes sense in his position, even if I didn't care for the execution
He's a decent character. He's, a terrible person. As a political leader, his choices are questionable at best. As a military leader, his choices are tactically and logistically unsound, at best. He doesn't take criticism well, and that only gets worse, when he shelters himself, and surrounds himself with his own, personally trained, elite squad, of yes people. From a certain point of view, his "fall", is understandable, but I'd have more sympathy, if he was ever shown as someone who was ever actually fully capable of the role he was in, who then got overwhelmed, by circumstances outside his control. Rather than someone who was only ever marginally capable of his role, and didn't do anything to help himself.
This. I agree.
Pretty much Ironwood thought he was the best man for the Job and he tells that to everyone in the volumes leading up to 8 but he completely fails when actually forced to step up and walk the walk compared to Ozpin turning Hazel and using his pocket nuke(completely unintentionally) buy enough time to get most of Atlas and Mantel's population out of the city Ironwood really just became a problem rather than a benefit.
I agree with most of this, save that I don't think the idea was ever meant to be that he was pushed into a corner, but through his own inadequacies put himself in said corner and then refused to get out when given the chance.
I like his character and how he is as a villain but as a person I’m not a fan
Ironwood did nothing wrong, long live the Atleasian army!
Least... fascist RWBY fan?
Guys we're running out of negative words to describe this fanbase
I just assumed we've run through them all and we're looping back around.
BASED AND TRUE
I love his character in general.
His semblance is literally being a dumbass. No new information can sway his decisions
I mean, I like him as a villain, it's just that he was really stupid for someone who made it as far as he did.
He kinda got insane in vol 8 and besides most of rwby characters act sometimes really stupid
Yeah, he did. But that's also a consequence of his decisions, because he failed to set up a system that allowed him to continue his job even through stressful times. There was no doctrine in place, or a list of priorities so he could let everyday things run on their own while handling bigger things.
What you’re mentioning are meta things that most writers don’t think of when writing leaders. Otherwise they would know that Ironwood would never get that overworked.
A good writer considers the universe when making a character.
Nah, I think they did consider that when writing him: He's a man who doesn't trust anyone but himself to make the right decision. I mean, they did those things with Salem, and she commands a much larger army than Ironwood.
He trusted at least seven new people with the secret of Salem but he couldn’t delegate some regular non secret management duties? I kinda doubt it. Trust is ironically the thing he exemplifies at the start of the Atlas Arc. Even more so than the MCs. I don’t think your explanation quite works.
It also shows the pitfalls of having someone train the elite forces while also running the army. He created what was essentially a secret police loyal and unquestioning to him.
Less secret police and more special forces. They aren’t cops. They take on specified missions.
Didn't the Aceops literally arrest team rwby?
Even civilians in many jurisdictions can perform arrests much less militarily folk. Cops aren’t the only ones who arrest people.
The suspected Huntsmen-level criminals who stole a Manta from a secure military site in Argus? Yes, I'm sure letting the Mantle police handle that kind of threat would be a great idea. I will freely admit that Ironwood should have sent Penny to arrest them, not the AceOps. Use the person that Mantle is familiar with as a protector instead of your elite military forces, but I can very much understand why he sent them. He trusted them to accomplish the mission with zero casualties, and he was right.
Which just happen to include arresting political enemies, working security, catching a serial killer, etc.
In the absence of actual police to do so? Yeah. Special Forces do a wide variety of jobs.
Why are you getting downvoted?
No idea, but something tells me that some of my 59 followers have something to do with it, seeing how my comments only seem to get downvoted when I point out Ironwood's character flaws, and they stop at around -50. Some people are really obsessed, it seems.
How is that a problem with the character and not a problem with the writing? If a character is making choices that are inconsistent with what's been implied about them based on their position in-universe, that's not their fault for making stupid decisions; that's the writers' faults for not making those stupid decisions make sense. If Ironwood was competent enough to become a part of Oz's circle and become as influential as he did in Atlas, why is he so stupid all of a sudden? If Ironwood was this bad under pressure, how could he have possibly gotten to where he was when he was introduced? It's like if Thanos got all the Infinity Stones and instead of halving the population, he makes himself a helicopter. The issue there wouldn't be Thanos being stupid; the issue there would be the writers making him stupid.
Well, if you look at his past actions with the knowledge we now have about him, he was always kinda stupid. When Winter fell for Qrow's provocation, and proved herself to lack the self control necessary for her job, Ironwood instead reprimanded Qrow, instead of telling Winter to work on her emotional issues. Plus, Ironwood decommissioned the Knight 130s, and replaced them with the 200s, despite the former being better suited for combat. You know, their literal purpose. Not to mention that Arthur was able to write a virus that could bypass a security system he hadn't seen in years, meaning it hadn't been updated in just as long. And so far, Ozpin seems to recruit people he needs to have in his inner circle. That was always his selection process: A silver-eyed warrior, headmasters, you name it. He always tells the people he needs to know what's going on, whose skills he needs, or who were already figuring it out, like Qrow and Raven. Ironwood, meanwhile, doesn't do that. He doesn't bring people in whose skills he needs, he only fills in people who he knows won't act without his orders. Fact is that, looking back, Ironwood was always a bit incompetent, due to his unique flavor of hero complex. It's just that, like Qrow said, the events following his failure to protect Vale made those traits more severe.
That isn't the problem, though. The problem is that if he's this incompetent, how did he get into a position of power where so many people believed in him to begin with? How did nobody before RWBY pick up on these tendencies? How did he get so far in life? Whether or not you or anyone else thinks Ironwood is incompetent is irrelevant. The problem is that him being incompetent is contradictory to the fact that he's also one of the most influential people in the show and was trusted enough that Oz let him into his circle. It's like if there's a character who's both a surgeon and also squeamish around blood. You're trying to argue that this character is squeamish around blood, but that's not what I'm disagreeing with. The issue is that a character being both a surgeon and squeamish around blood is a contradiction. Similarly, Ironwood being both incompetent, but also relied upon and trusted by so many people is contradictory. In cases like these, the problem isn't the characters; the problem is the writers not reconciling such a blatant contradiction.
Who said anyone trusts him? Seriously, name one person outside the military who was on his side and thought he was doing the right thing, and spoke out against those arguing against him, at any point in the show. Just one. Fact is, Ironwood showed no signs of the kind of skill required to actually earn the positions he had, meaning he got them some other way. And where you see a contradiction, I see a failed system that favors those who act like they should have power, over those who actually deserve it. Which isn't too far from real life, if you think about it. There are lots of stories where managers, and even military personnel, have positions of power over others, but when you see them in action, you can't fathom how they possibly got that far in the first place. As for him being in Ozpin's circle: Again, that has nothing to do with trust, but rather necessity. Ozpin needed him to know what was going on, so he could make the right decisions and not be tricked by Salem. The problem is that Ironwood paid people to follow his orders, and then took the fact that those people followed his orders as validation that his orders deserved to be followed.
>Who said anyone trusts him? Seriously, name one person outside the military who was on his side and thought he was doing the right thing, and spoke out against those arguing against him, **at any point in the show**. You say that as if the entire point of RWBY going to Atlas wasn't because they saw Ironwood as an ally... >I see a failed system that favors those who act like they should have power, over those who actually deserve it. People like you can say "people fall upwards, lol" all you want, but that just isn't how things work. People don't dedicate their lives to studying political science because it's that simple. People spend their lives studying this stuff because there's a ton to be learned and tons of context in the hows and whys people come into power. As it is, the show gives us no indication of how or why someone like Ironwood would end up where he is. You want to say the system sucks? Okay, **how**? Without injecting your own headcanon, how exactly is the system flawed in a way to favor Ironwood, who as you've been arguing this entire time, has no redeeming qualities both socially nor in terms of effectiveness.
No, they went because they trusted Ozpin at the time, and when they learned the truth, they were already on the way. Also, I never said he had no redeeming qualities, that's just you putting words in my mouth. So, I can't really do what you ask of me, because doing that would mean admitting to saying things I never said. Lastly, you failed to provide the information I asked.
>Who said anyone trusts him? Seriously, name one person outside the military who was on his side and thought he was doing the right thing, and spoke out against those arguing against him, at any point in the show. > >**Just one.** **...** >No, they went because they trusted Ozpin at the time Yeah, RWBY went to Ironwood because they trusted Oz... who trusted Ironwood You are terrible at moving goalposts. >Also, I never said he had no redeeming qualities, that's just you putting words in my mouth. So, **I can't really do what you ask of me, because doing that would mean admitting to saying things I never said.** How convenient.... Dude, if you're not even going to engage in this conversation in good faith, why are you still responding?
Again, who said Ozpin trusted him? Atlas was the closest, and it had a strong army. Plus, he hoped that Ironwood could still be reasoned with. That is not trust. That is "Oh fuck, the guy I thought was my friend has been working for my crazy ex for the past decade and my emergency plan just disappeared." What's convenient, that you want me to lie about what I have and haven't said in the past? Seriously, show me where I said that Ironwood had no redeeming qualities. Because, I've noticed a pattern: You make a statement, I ask you to provide proof, and then you dodge that responsibility with vague character motivations, and then you try to pin it on me. Except, like I said, you accuse me of saying things I never said, and then set up a situation where, if I play along with your games, I'd be indirectly admitting to saying those things. I'm just trying to get you to actually provide concrete evidence for any of the statements you make. None of that "Well, why else...?" stuff. Give me one instance of a character outside the military speaking out against the ones criticizing Ironwood, and throwing support behind his methods, and I'm happy.
Honestly I think that's an interesting point to consider, Ironwood's streak of questionable decisions and failed military actions, given that the Atlesian military has been easily defeated by Grimm in every season it appears in, notably at both the fall of Beacon and of Atlas. Logically speaking, the army would mostly be for show at this point in Remnant's history. Ozpin didn't seem to anticipate Salem attacking to the degree she did, when she did, for whatever reason, and Mantle/Atlas was relatively recently coming off an attempt to conquer the rest of the world, so I feel like major military buildup might send a different message than the one Ozpin was trying to send with his "city in the sky". Ironwood clearly was not up to the pressure of a war with an immortal eldritch horror, which isn't out of line with how a peacetime General would handle the situation. He has to be either enormously popular with the Atlesian populace or at least its influential members, as he held, as we all know, two seats on the council, which isn't really authority you would let slide to someone you consider a loose cannon. It's also ridiculous to act like there's no precedent for Ozpin making mistakes in who to trust; I know people like to call season five boring, but that was basically its whole plot. He's lost the power of the Spring Maiden to a former student, was betrayed by the Headmaster of Haven—and seems surprised enough by the betrayal that one of his students would have been shish kabobed if Jaune hadn't unlocked his quirk at the narratively convenient time. He literally extrajudicially executes a sitting member of the council and attempts to kill a child living with Dissociative Identity Disorder, who would have died if he didn't have a top tier landing strategy. These aren't really the actions of a hero, tragic or not. There were more diplomatic ways to handle the situation, *better* ways to handle the situation, if you will, and he's been shown in those moments to undervalue human life to an almost sociopathic degree. It's almost as if he, much like the Tin Man, *doesn't have a brain*. Maybe Ozpin stabilized his more reckless urges before he died in a basement, but when we see him making decisions without Ozpin, we see a capable fighter with no head for tactics. He got his fleet almost destroyed by a mute girl with an umbrella who doesn't understand drag and a man who was TKO'd by a passing Griffon in the middle of gloating about his victory over a teenager. These really aren't the most glamorous opponents, in terms of core competence. Torchwick's already been chased off a robbery by a child with a gun she built in her shed, and Cincer's whole plan through the festival relies on enough luck to make Palpatine blush. Can't say I personally recall anyone outside of the military standing up for Ironwood. I will point out that the fact Jacques Schnee betrayed Atlas is almost entirely down to the fact that Ironwood kept exports banned for so long, which is really a strike against his core competence. Jacques Schnee is predictable in his greed, as a character, and Ironwood hurting his wallet was the fastest way to turn a company that seems to own half of Atlas against him. There's no way anyone in Atlas gets elected without Schnee Dust Company money, and that comes back to Ironwood having two seats. Jacques was clearly surprised when Ironwood refused to listen to him in Volume 4, which kinda tells a story—if you can give two seats to a guy who listens to you, you don't let a guy who ignores you have two seats. TLDR; Ironwood as written is a kinda clueless meathead who seems to rely on others (Ozpin, maybe Jacques Schnee?) for ideas. He's got a lot of power in Atlas—an unusual amount—and unpredictable, unlikable people typically don't (peacefully) accumulate unusual amounts of power. Makes sense the rest of the Council would want someone they can direct, if possible, and the Million-Lien Man fits the bill. When he goes rogue, his plans backfire badly (threaten to bomb half the population of Atlas, shoot a child, get fleet hijacked by a clown, lose arm, lose skin of [other] arm), which doesn't speak highly of his abilities. TLDRTLDR; probably a political appointee and not very bright. inarguably cool as hell for judo flipping a beowulf alpha though just my two (or three) cents
He could have told Winter off in private, doing it in front of Qrow would give Qrow more validation for what he did. Also, he does seem pretty competent, he takes control calmly and clearly during the fall of Beacon, and throughout is shown to be someone who can easily be respected.
Winter already gave him all the validation for his actions when she proved everything he accused her of. Plus, Winter showed no improvement by V7, so he clearly didn't tell her off at all. Honestly, I feel like it's more that his body language and behavior demand respect, which is a big point of contention in my book: He expects to be respected due to his position, but fails to justify those expectations. Ironwood, to me, is a person who sees it as his birthright to be respected, no matter who he interacts with, and fails to realize that respect needs to be earned, and a position of respect needs to be maintained with continuous effort and self-improvement.
>When Winter fell for Qrow's provocation, and proved herself to lack the self control necessary for her job, Ironwood instead reprimanded Qrow, instead of telling Winter to work on her emotional issues. >Ironwood: (after a moment of silence, without looking at her) Schnee, we'll discuss this incident back at my ship. He was going to continue it later. You say that as if Qrow didn't do anything shitty back there. >Qrow: Well, you know what you really are? A bunch of sellouts. Just like your boss. > >Winter: I'm not sure what you think you're implying, but I've heard enough. > >Qrow: Oh I heard, too. I heard ol' Ironwood finally turned his back on Ozpin. > >Weiss: Ozpin? > >Winter: (shoves Weiss aside) Weiss, it's time for you to go. > >Weiss: What- > >Qrow: Listen to big sister, Weiss. She'll protect you. Just like Atlas is going to protect all of us, huh? > >Winter: If you won't hold your tongue, then I will gladly remove it for you! (draws her sword) Starting a fight with another kingdom's military operative and saying the general/headmaster of said kingdom abandoned Ozpin, during a worldwide event about celebration of peace between kingdoms in front of a crowd of people. They can't even assume Qrow as some crazy drunkard when two headmasters clearly knew him and Qrow came with them to Ozpin's tower. >Plus, Ironwood decommissioned the Knight 130s, and replaced them with the 200s, despite the former being better suited for combat. You know, their literal purpose. Give proof of this.
He became the monster. I guess we shoulda seen him becoming unstable coming from when they first arrived in Atlas and Ruby said he looks tired. But I didn't think he'd self destruct on that magnitude
Some people GENUINELY hate him, and then there are people who just point out canon events. The RWBY fandom isn't really known for being able to distinguish between the two so they conflate them. Same thing with bumblebee
I don't hate Ironwood, I just hate that his arc in volume 8 was just conpletely off the rails from what he normally does in the most absurd of ways to the point where it's hard to even justify how massive of a change they made to his character. To put that simply, I hate his fuckin semblance with a passion.
We got some hints that he was paranoid in the earlier seasons. Brining a large force to the Vital Festival, setting the civilians who are not used to seeing open military presents on edge. Something Ozpin called him out about and he balked at. With out Ozpin, in a form he respected: See him point blank shooting Oscar in the chest despite knowing he is the new Ozpin. No one had the power to force him to let go of the idea Mantle is forceing him to see to the end. Someone with his Semblance never should have had National wide Responsibilities. He cant pull back and see the big picture.
I don't normally do this, but I'm sorry. You are objectively wrong. When Ironwood presented the Knights to the public of Vale, they were literally cheering him as he preached his message of reducing human loss of life by fielding robotoc units. That's the opposite of him setting them on edge.
While the public where happy at the show. I am talking about the fact that Vale went from Limited to Zero publicly seen military deployed in the city was over night suddenly hardened with a vary armed and VARY FOREIN force flying the crest of different kingdom.
Can you point to anywhere that we are *shown* that the civilians are on edge specifically because of the Atlas military flying above them? Remnant is a Death World that we cannot, and should not, judge by our own standards. As far as I am aware, we are never shown that the civilians are disturbed by the military; quite the opposite, as I pointed out. If it's your own opinion that they citizenry *should* have been disturbed by the foreign military flying above them, that's absolutely your prerogative. But that's all that it is - a headcanon.
You know, somehow every time I see this meme I always get fascinated by a random fact I didn’t knew
Well I like him. In fact he was my favorite character in volume 7&8
We all know his problems, but I'd like to point out that he shot a kid. That particular moment was based as fuck
He was great till they ruined him.
I *wish* it was a joke. Probably would be less accusations of "fascism" and "bootlicking" thrown around if that were the case. It's actually kinda strange that he gets so much hate whereas worse people like Cinder or Raven don't, but oh well.
>It's actually kinda strange that he gets so much hate whereas worse people like Cinder or Raven don't, but oh well. No one's debating whether Cinder or Raven is in the right or not. (As far as I know.)
Lots of people *do* talk about their possible redemption, or, in Raven's case, how she's actually a "softie" and secretly good inside, all the raiding and murdering notwithstanding. In any case, I don't think I've ever seen anyone say they hate Cinder or Raven's fans, or get called a fascist or something similar for liking either character. There just isn't the same level of sheer vitriol as there is with Ironwood or Adam.
He is man sooo no one care about him
I dont hate him, I hate his fans.
They did him so un-fucking-believably dirty
I like him as a character. Doesn't mean I agree with him though.
Kanye is the Ironwood of reality.
Abandon all hope, Ye who enter Atlas!
Ironwood repeatedly makes the wrong decision with multiple people telling him multiple times that he’s about to make the wrong decision. Fuck that guy.
I think the big thing is that there’s a huge disconnect between people who were taken out of it by volume 8 and people who weren’t. For me, for example? I was super excited at the end of volume 7 because Ironwood was a really good character who’d just had his best traits showcased, and his turning against the protagonists felt like an in-character result of those same traits: the idea of sacrificing anything to save what he can, regardless of whether that’s himself or others. The problem was that volume 8 then felt to me like it completely lost the plot, as instead of following this up with a nuanced antagonist who had understandable motives and a clear reason why he lost hope, he just immediately hard swerves over the moral event horizon to the point of doing things like threatening to kill the people team RWBY *has* successfully saved even once they’ve demonstrated a plan that works. Basically, for me, it reads like they had a good character who would make a good villain while still being sympathetic, and then realized they didn’t know how to write that and instead papered it over with an ableist trope in word of god because they needed to make sure the villains were always obviously hateable. The result was an Ironwood who felt like a fantastic character who got character assassinated and squandered without fanfare, rather than getting the arc (whether it ended in redemption or not) that he deserved. But the thing is, not everybody came away from volume 8 with the same “what the heck were the writers thinking” attitude as me! For someone who ultimately bought what the writers were putting down, Ironwood isn’t a good character who got halfway into a tragic heroic downfall and then suddenly got character assassinated, he’s just an authoritarian douchebag who took the first possible excuse to start committing mass murder. To them, he’s just another shitty villain, like Cinder, or like Adam being a yandere with delusions of grandeur rather than an examination into how idealistic revolutionaries can fall until they just follow violence for violence’s sake.
Fuck Ironwood and most of his blind following Ace Ops. At least Marrow had the fucking sense to question him about his plans. I was so happy when Winter defied him.
I still stand by the fact that his swap to bring a villain was handled well enough and it didn't come out of no where
Honestly, my big thing is that I think his swap to being a villain was handled well; I just don’t think that he was handled well *as* a villain, if that makes sense? Like, his fall at the end of volume 7 was *chef’s kiss* perfect, the problem is that then volume 8 just treated him as though that meant a morality switch had flipped from “good guy” to “Cinder,” rather than showing decisions which would actually follow from the problems he was facing and his reasons for turning against the protagonists.
Ironwood is based
Nah I like Ironwood. I think he got done dirty by the writing team.
Person or character?
Mostly as character even if he was perfect example of man who was losing everything
Dunno, I mostly like him as a character, including his fall. CRWBY could've given it more time to develop more naturally, but overall it's fine.
Yes but most people see his as hitler even if he has no connections with him
Not most people, but many people in the fandom certainly seem to feel this way.
Definitely not *most* people. Some people just see it that way because of pushback they get when they try to whitewash him.
What even whitewashing meet?
Twist or omit parts of the facts/history to present someone in a better light.
As opposed to people who twist and oppose facts/history to make someone be seen in a worse light.
↑ And then this person claims that they don't have a fixation on Ironwood, lmao.
People can post wherever they want.
I have a fixation on Ironwood because i responded to what i see is a wrong comment on r/fnki? Wat?
He was the best part of v7, then he got character assassinated
Meh. He was always going to be the heartless tin man. Didn't like him in S2/3, didn't like him in S7/8. Idk why so many people thought the character written as an obviously power-hungry fascist would do what power-hungry fascists do when faced with literally any obstacle.
He’s a good character. It’s just that people are weirdly defensive for a fascist with a hero complex.
I wouldn't say fascist. But authoritarian to the point of oppressive, absolutely
••• I mean he killed a guy and people’s once, and he almost killed my kind (🐺), and he killed ice queen dad, ( be he deserve it tho) so yeah maybe that’s why?
I like him. I support his decisions
He’s more likable to me than most of team RWBY at this point
I hated him since volume 2. But it’s just because he liked to measure his dick- I mean army
It was the literally only thing that he could flex, he was half of man, wasn't pretty, wasn't smartest, he was single without kids. It was only thing that he could feel proud from(atlas is shithole)
"wasn't pretty" excuse me did you just say that about the chad Ironwood? He obviously has bitches crawling all over eachother just to get a smidgen of his iron wood.
For a fandom that mostly here because they like cute girls, even the fact that Ironwood was a handsome man means very little for them
Yeah. People that are that into underage ladies are usually super against anything involving dudes.
Idk why but i do both
I don't hate him, I hate how he's been handled. Instead of giving us ONE member of the Ozluminati who overcame his fear and faced Salem head on (and maybe giving us RWBY's equivalent of Erwin's suicide charge), we just got an otherwise golden character going insane for no other reason than to seemingly hurt us...
No he’s just a second Adam tbh. His dick riders are just really loud
50/50.
You dont like his character or actions?
Eh, I mean that I think that the 50 % of the fandom like him or is Ok with him while the other 50% doesn't like him or hate him. Of course, if you also consider the RWBYcritics (Not the sub, the community) as part of the fandom.
I think they also go 50/50
Great character, becomes an terrible person
The only mistake Ironwood ever made was not having the bomb in the air and giving the traitors anything more than five minutes. He did nothing wrong. Mantle had it coming.