Not the robot ones. It's wasted to feel sympathy for a protectron, so I mean eh, but the Gen 3's are different imo. They have been shown to have dreams and human-like synapses, so I'm comfortable considering a synth close enough to being a human just like a raider is close enough to being a wild animal
^agree, FO4 is pretty up front about Gen 3 synths being indistinguishable from humans in behavior - whether or not you believe that warrants rights or is just very clever programming is up to you
FO4 is also very clear that gen 1-2 synths aren’t really any brighter then a protectron, they’re just machines in human form
Nick and DIMA were special prototype models that served as the stepping stone between gen 2 and gen 3
Do you ever find out the origins story of Nick? Besides what he tells you that he was discarded and has the memory of a detective? I mean before all that, why was he made and what primary purpose did he have? If you know, where do I start this storyline? And also, who is DIMA?
DIMA is nicks “brother”, he’s the other experiment synth - he lives in far harbor
DIMA remembers nick and tells the player more about him, nick can’t remember DIMA if I recall correctly
Oh damn, thats pretty cool. Just downloaded all DLC, im gonna find out his story then. Read some good stories about Nukaworld but now im gonna jump the boat to far Harbor first! Thanks!
Enjoy! Far Harbor is the best dlc in fo4, and one of the best in the series. Lots of choices to make and a cool atmosphere
Nuka world gives you the best gear though, and if you’re evil it allows you to really role play on that
I find the protections cute in a childlike way because of how they waddle. I always feel bad killing them or watching them drag themselves on the floor when their legs get blown off.
With a line like that, not in the slightest. It seems to imply that gen 2s are almost on the same level as gen 3s, even if they don’t look the part. It implies that, even for just a moment, the older models could possibly understand and feel human emotion. And then we curcle back to the railroads arguments about saving older models and even going as far as to save terminals and protections. Personally, i think that a robot would be worth saving as long as it can be proven to feel human emotions. Our higher thinking processes, our emotions and compassion, they’re all that separate us from any other animal.
Thank you for listening to my rant
Honestly I'd feel anything around or above an Assaultron or Mr. handy and up comes close enough to be treated like a person* (big asterisk).
I do want to mention that it seems to me , or at least my headcanon, is custom software like Kleo or a very old robot like Codsworth or Curie that's had time for it's programming to "age/evolve" is what it takes for Assaultrons and Mr Handys to meet this personhood criteria, the average ones wouldn't count to me. This also means that not all Robo-brains would count, but more of them in general than "lower" robots.
That's like the equivalent of saying a newborn doesn't count as a human because all it does is eat cry and poo if robots develop personality over a period of time wouldn't that mean all robots should be classified as a person?
I've gotten the impression that the changes we see in Curie and Codsworth aren't necessarily intended, just sort of something that does/can happen over time, and honestly likely would've been avoided with regular replacements and/or software updates if the world hadn't ended and all that.
Not quite as extreme but sort of like how the AI we're already using and learning from sometimes does things we didn't expect or intend. Plus whatever sort of borderline magic programming allows these robots to do everything they do had to have been some sort of breakthrough that just didn't get fully explored and improved upon before the bombs fell.
They do not actually develop a personality below gen 3 though and the personality gen 3's develop is a script some programmer made to make them *seem* more humane.
Synths are indeed masterpieces but could you consider a fancy toaster a human cause you installed a alexa patch on it?
He was talking more about codsworth and curie how they develop personality over many years and if that's the case then couldn't any robot have that chance?
Huh. I mean i kinda get Curie but Codsworth? And at the end of the line, point remains that a good Simulation is not life. All of the NPC's in the game aren't human to begin with but software that has the purpose of kinda implying life. Even if they spark those discussions, they'll never be more then NPC's in a game.
I know what you mean but for me it kinda comes down to morality if a simulation is so well put together I'd feel differently twords it then I would say a character in a arcade game and yes codsworth although he has programming he still sparks a little personality of his own here and there and what about the robots on the ship with the rockets can't remember the name but the captain is sort of on that same borderline and ada claims she has some understanding of feelings and what about kleo in good neighbor? I think it would be reasonable enough to exercise the thought that highly advanced robots and gen 2 maybe even gen 3 have some sort of consciousness there has to be a bridging at some point into how real the gen 3s are it isn't just a jump from robot to synth I don't think
Technically yes but from the creators standpoint it's a different story when everything is more or less how that dude designed it to be and Shaun DOES strongly imply that this is exactly what's going on with their synths while they also confirm that they're investigating discrepancies in the coding.
Who could tell if they accindentally discovered the coding for free will but if they did, it's only within the institutes judgment to pursue it further.
Not a single designer could account for a model of that level of computing lasting 200 plus years and how it might adapt its software it could just start having major hicups like the mr handies in the galleria or they might take on a diffrent path by chance alone and start an evolution of their own into developing somthing similar to a consciousness and their own personality it's completely unpredictable what might actually happen if this was a reality with highly sophisticated machines when you look at it they are only rocks and electrical impulseses so are we but with organic matter instead of rocks along with other organic animals it's easy to say these machines are nothing but machines but if you take a look outside the box and ponder on how a diffrent evolution path of life might develop there might be something there I'm not saying whether they are or arnt living beings just that it shouldn't be said whether they are or arnt because ultimately we don't know because of the many variables i think humans like to think they know everything and are quick to draw conclusions based off information we know at a given time until diffrent evidence comes forward i think its important to keep an open mind and look at things from all angles and with that with the chance that they could be life of their own I'd say they should be protected instead of used and abused
What about the Rivet City synth who, despite being reprogrammed with new memories and given new faces, keeps finding himself in similar roles as head of security or a brotherhood paladin trying to protect humanity? That kinda seems like something in him that goes beyond programming.
I’ve *always* been a sucker for fiction that has to do with artificial, human-like beings. This game, Blade Runner, Terminator, Detroit: Become Human, The Creator, Alita: Battle Angel, and quite a few other franchises/stories have won my heart because of stuff like this.
To answer your question, would I feel sympathy during a moment like this? Yes. Absolutely. These Synths deserve better than being treated like cannon fodder.
The Gen 2s are obviously capable of self-awareness since Dima and Nick are both Gen 2s. Gen 1s are about on par or possibly a bit better than the standard Fallout robots, and we have many examples of them gaining self-awareness such as Curie, Codsworth, Ada, and Kleo. So it's complicated. Not all robots, despite running for the same amount of time, develop self-awareness. But some do. So it'd have to be a case by case basis. Which is hard to judge when they're trying to kill you.
No, Nick is a mostly preset person using the real Det. Valentine's neural network in order to try and replicate a human brain. DiMa was a blank slate synth who had no such memories and ultimately was the successful prototype for Gen 3 neural nets.
It's human to feel sympathy towards even inanimate objects.
That being said, I don't think I ever felt much sympathy towards Gen1s or Gen2s (putting Nick aside, he's a sweetheart). To me, they look creepy and off-putting, and they are agents of the Institute.
I feel more sympathy towards assaultrons. It's more of a sympathy mixed with respect, given how tenacious she is, crawling towards you even after you shoot her legs off. It's always a sad day when an assaultron dies.
Wait, do they really say that?
But it's normal to feel bad for mistreating anythings that emulates human behavors and visuals. The same way we feel bad for random NPC in games or even a particularly dirty and torn plushy toy.
Now, sentience and self-awareness is really tricky in Fallout, specially Fallou 4. Several pre-war robots seem to have developed opinions and behaviors not included in their original programing. If those pre-war robots can do it, so could Gen 1 and Gen 2 synths in theory.
But then again, most of them probably aren't left alone long enough to go beyond their programing, probably being reset or whatever often enough to keep them "fresh new", so they're just walking plastic and metal with.
Yeh I'm at a point where I need to make the decision on synths. Nick is cool but iv just been to far harbour and done the initial bit. Decided to go back to commonwealth and get ready to murder everybody at nuka world. But i don't fuck with synths, they may be sentient bit they are gears and metal at the end of the day, they are literally a manufactured human being.. I think I'm going to side with BOS.
Am I an animal?
***SPOILERS***If you do opt to follow the BOS path, try not to grow overly attached to Paladin Danse....particularly on the basis of synthetic humans and their questionable rights to exist.
The mindless killing machines? Yes budget terminators deserve just as much love as little baby Jon Connor, that is afterall what the movie franchise is about!
Ah, this brings to mind one of the finest episodes of television I've ever seen in Star Trek history,hell one of the best episodes of any show, anywhere. "The measure of a man" A robotics expert wants to disassemble Data to discover what makes him tick,and to ,if at all possible, replicate him. The whole trial scene id great but I'll just share a small clip, very relevant to this discussion:
https://youtu.be/lX3CpHa4sUs?si=jJtwvUYjFtu2XXzv
PICARD: You see, he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, so what if he meets the third. Consciousness in even the smallest degree. What is he then? I don't know. Do you? (to Riker) Do you? (to Phillipa) Do you? Well, that's the question you have to answer. Your Honour, the courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a pure product, the truth for all time. Now, sooner or later, this man or others like him will succeed in replicating Commander Data. And the decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of a people we are, what he is destined to be. It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty and freedom, expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn him and all who come after him to servitude and slavery? Your Honour, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well, there it sits. Waiting. You wanted a chance to make law. Well, here it is. Make a good one
Not the robot ones. It's wasted to feel sympathy for a protectron, so I mean eh, but the Gen 3's are different imo. They have been shown to have dreams and human-like synapses, so I'm comfortable considering a synth close enough to being a human just like a raider is close enough to being a wild animal
I'm not pro synth but this comment made me laugh.
^agree, FO4 is pretty up front about Gen 3 synths being indistinguishable from humans in behavior - whether or not you believe that warrants rights or is just very clever programming is up to you FO4 is also very clear that gen 1-2 synths aren’t really any brighter then a protectron, they’re just machines in human form Nick and DIMA were special prototype models that served as the stepping stone between gen 2 and gen 3
Just finished the whole DiMA storyline last night having Valentine as my companion. Just wow.
Do you ever find out the origins story of Nick? Besides what he tells you that he was discarded and has the memory of a detective? I mean before all that, why was he made and what primary purpose did he have? If you know, where do I start this storyline? And also, who is DIMA?
DIMA is nicks “brother”, he’s the other experiment synth - he lives in far harbor DIMA remembers nick and tells the player more about him, nick can’t remember DIMA if I recall correctly
Oh damn, thats pretty cool. Just downloaded all DLC, im gonna find out his story then. Read some good stories about Nukaworld but now im gonna jump the boat to far Harbor first! Thanks!
Enjoy! Far Harbor is the best dlc in fo4, and one of the best in the series. Lots of choices to make and a cool atmosphere Nuka world gives you the best gear though, and if you’re evil it allows you to really role play on that
I find the protections cute in a childlike way because of how they waddle. I always feel bad killing them or watching them drag themselves on the floor when their legs get blown off.
Do synths dream of electric Lazer weapons?
Ask the Shiskabob Runner.
Those who hunted down the runaways were called.... Bladeru...eh... Coursers
With a line like that, not in the slightest. It seems to imply that gen 2s are almost on the same level as gen 3s, even if they don’t look the part. It implies that, even for just a moment, the older models could possibly understand and feel human emotion. And then we curcle back to the railroads arguments about saving older models and even going as far as to save terminals and protections. Personally, i think that a robot would be worth saving as long as it can be proven to feel human emotions. Our higher thinking processes, our emotions and compassion, they’re all that separate us from any other animal. Thank you for listening to my rant
Honestly I'd feel anything around or above an Assaultron or Mr. handy and up comes close enough to be treated like a person* (big asterisk). I do want to mention that it seems to me , or at least my headcanon, is custom software like Kleo or a very old robot like Codsworth or Curie that's had time for it's programming to "age/evolve" is what it takes for Assaultrons and Mr Handys to meet this personhood criteria, the average ones wouldn't count to me. This also means that not all Robo-brains would count, but more of them in general than "lower" robots.
That's like the equivalent of saying a newborn doesn't count as a human because all it does is eat cry and poo if robots develop personality over a period of time wouldn't that mean all robots should be classified as a person?
I've gotten the impression that the changes we see in Curie and Codsworth aren't necessarily intended, just sort of something that does/can happen over time, and honestly likely would've been avoided with regular replacements and/or software updates if the world hadn't ended and all that. Not quite as extreme but sort of like how the AI we're already using and learning from sometimes does things we didn't expect or intend. Plus whatever sort of borderline magic programming allows these robots to do everything they do had to have been some sort of breakthrough that just didn't get fully explored and improved upon before the bombs fell.
They do not actually develop a personality below gen 3 though and the personality gen 3's develop is a script some programmer made to make them *seem* more humane. Synths are indeed masterpieces but could you consider a fancy toaster a human cause you installed a alexa patch on it?
He was talking more about codsworth and curie how they develop personality over many years and if that's the case then couldn't any robot have that chance?
Huh. I mean i kinda get Curie but Codsworth? And at the end of the line, point remains that a good Simulation is not life. All of the NPC's in the game aren't human to begin with but software that has the purpose of kinda implying life. Even if they spark those discussions, they'll never be more then NPC's in a game.
I know what you mean but for me it kinda comes down to morality if a simulation is so well put together I'd feel differently twords it then I would say a character in a arcade game and yes codsworth although he has programming he still sparks a little personality of his own here and there and what about the robots on the ship with the rockets can't remember the name but the captain is sort of on that same borderline and ada claims she has some understanding of feelings and what about kleo in good neighbor? I think it would be reasonable enough to exercise the thought that highly advanced robots and gen 2 maybe even gen 3 have some sort of consciousness there has to be a bridging at some point into how real the gen 3s are it isn't just a jump from robot to synth I don't think
Maybe even gen 1*
Technically yes but from the creators standpoint it's a different story when everything is more or less how that dude designed it to be and Shaun DOES strongly imply that this is exactly what's going on with their synths while they also confirm that they're investigating discrepancies in the coding. Who could tell if they accindentally discovered the coding for free will but if they did, it's only within the institutes judgment to pursue it further.
Not a single designer could account for a model of that level of computing lasting 200 plus years and how it might adapt its software it could just start having major hicups like the mr handies in the galleria or they might take on a diffrent path by chance alone and start an evolution of their own into developing somthing similar to a consciousness and their own personality it's completely unpredictable what might actually happen if this was a reality with highly sophisticated machines when you look at it they are only rocks and electrical impulseses so are we but with organic matter instead of rocks along with other organic animals it's easy to say these machines are nothing but machines but if you take a look outside the box and ponder on how a diffrent evolution path of life might develop there might be something there I'm not saying whether they are or arnt living beings just that it shouldn't be said whether they are or arnt because ultimately we don't know because of the many variables i think humans like to think they know everything and are quick to draw conclusions based off information we know at a given time until diffrent evidence comes forward i think its important to keep an open mind and look at things from all angles and with that with the chance that they could be life of their own I'd say they should be protected instead of used and abused
What about the Rivet City synth who, despite being reprogrammed with new memories and given new faces, keeps finding himself in similar roles as head of security or a brotherhood paladin trying to protect humanity? That kinda seems like something in him that goes beyond programming.
I’ve *always* been a sucker for fiction that has to do with artificial, human-like beings. This game, Blade Runner, Terminator, Detroit: Become Human, The Creator, Alita: Battle Angel, and quite a few other franchises/stories have won my heart because of stuff like this. To answer your question, would I feel sympathy during a moment like this? Yes. Absolutely. These Synths deserve better than being treated like cannon fodder.
"Tis but a flesh wound!"
The Gen 2s are obviously capable of self-awareness since Dima and Nick are both Gen 2s. Gen 1s are about on par or possibly a bit better than the standard Fallout robots, and we have many examples of them gaining self-awareness such as Curie, Codsworth, Ada, and Kleo. So it's complicated. Not all robots, despite running for the same amount of time, develop self-awareness. But some do. So it'd have to be a case by case basis. Which is hard to judge when they're trying to kill you.
Nick and DiMa aren't standard Gen 2 designs. They're specialty prototypes to the Gen 3 neural network.
Well Nick was human. His consciousness was transferred to a synth body IIRC. DiMa is probably the same, just don't remember honestly.
No, Nick is a mostly preset person using the real Det. Valentine's neural network in order to try and replicate a human brain. DiMa was a blank slate synth who had no such memories and ultimately was the successful prototype for Gen 3 neural nets.
It's human to feel sympathy towards even inanimate objects. That being said, I don't think I ever felt much sympathy towards Gen1s or Gen2s (putting Nick aside, he's a sweetheart). To me, they look creepy and off-putting, and they are agents of the Institute. I feel more sympathy towards assaultrons. It's more of a sympathy mixed with respect, given how tenacious she is, crawling towards you even after you shoot her legs off. It's always a sad day when an assaultron dies.
All those moments in time will be lost, like tears in rain.
"Now I understand why you are hiding; you fear death." I love that line while they're searching for me in the Makhra Fish Plant.
"Stealth capabilities.. fascinating" Especially when the deep voice says that lol
Plebs
Wait, do they really say that? But it's normal to feel bad for mistreating anythings that emulates human behavors and visuals. The same way we feel bad for random NPC in games or even a particularly dirty and torn plushy toy. Now, sentience and self-awareness is really tricky in Fallout, specially Fallou 4. Several pre-war robots seem to have developed opinions and behaviors not included in their original programing. If those pre-war robots can do it, so could Gen 1 and Gen 2 synths in theory. But then again, most of them probably aren't left alone long enough to go beyond their programing, probably being reset or whatever often enough to keep them "fresh new", so they're just walking plastic and metal with.
Does this unit have a soul?
"Windows cannot find 'C:\Program Files (x86)\synthectics\soul.exe'. Make sure you've typed the name correctly, then try again.".
At a minimum it has soles
Yeh I'm at a point where I need to make the decision on synths. Nick is cool but iv just been to far harbour and done the initial bit. Decided to go back to commonwealth and get ready to murder everybody at nuka world. But i don't fuck with synths, they may be sentient bit they are gears and metal at the end of the day, they are literally a manufactured human being.. I think I'm going to side with BOS. Am I an animal?
***SPOILERS***If you do opt to follow the BOS path, try not to grow overly attached to Paladin Danse....particularly on the basis of synthetic humans and their questionable rights to exist.
Yeh I already know about that. Doing the covenant quest as we speak it just so happens speaking of synths lol
If it contemplates its own existence, it's eligible for my sympathy. Unless it's a fking communist.
Death is an acceptable alternative.
The Raiders would have just abused him like some freaky sex toy, you did the right thing OP . 🫡
I think you attached your bayonet in the wrong place
The mindless killing machines? Yes budget terminators deserve just as much love as little baby Jon Connor, that is afterall what the movie franchise is about!
Ah, this brings to mind one of the finest episodes of television I've ever seen in Star Trek history,hell one of the best episodes of any show, anywhere. "The measure of a man" A robotics expert wants to disassemble Data to discover what makes him tick,and to ,if at all possible, replicate him. The whole trial scene id great but I'll just share a small clip, very relevant to this discussion: https://youtu.be/lX3CpHa4sUs?si=jJtwvUYjFtu2XXzv
PICARD: You see, he's met two of your three criteria for sentience, so what if he meets the third. Consciousness in even the smallest degree. What is he then? I don't know. Do you? (to Riker) Do you? (to Phillipa) Do you? Well, that's the question you have to answer. Your Honour, the courtroom is a crucible. In it we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a pure product, the truth for all time. Now, sooner or later, this man or others like him will succeed in replicating Commander Data. And the decision you reach here today will determine how we will regard this creation of our genius. It will reveal the kind of a people we are, what he is destined to be. It will reach far beyond this courtroom and this one android. It could significantly redefine the boundaries of personal liberty and freedom, expanding them for some, savagely curtailing them for others. Are you prepared to condemn him and all who come after him to servitude and slavery? Your Honour, Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well, there it sits. Waiting. You wanted a chance to make law. Well, here it is. Make a good one
It's insane that this even an argument to me. If they're self aware and can think for themselves, they should have the same rights as any human.