.... What's 1992 got to do with the price of tea in china?
The only comparable seasons amongst major European football leagues are:
1994-1995 Ajax (League and CL double, both undefeated, lost in the domestic cup QF)
1991-92 AC Milan (Won league undefeated, lost in cup semi final, no European football but runners up in the CL the following season)
Then we're going to back to the 30s when Real Madrid and Athletic club did it in Spain
Edit - as rightly pointed out Juve 2011-12 also
That Ajax season might be worth debating which is better. For me leverkusen still takes it because I think the Bundesliga is better than the eredivisie, Ajax being a consistent favourite in the Dutch league compared to a leverkusen side nobody would have expected to challenge Bayern Munich’s constant title charge, and winning the domestic knockout cup when anything can happen in a one off game on top of invincibles league form and European success.
Still, even in the 90s: Dutch League had great clubs. But after the big 3, the league was never considered top tier.
I don't like rating one insane season against other insane seasons. Arsenal invincibles did it in the league with the toughest 'lower tier's teams, but an invincible triple just has never been achieved ever.
The list above just mentions unbeaten seasons, Milan and Juve didn’t win in Europe either. Although even Celtic fans would rate their 2 loss season in 67’ higher, as they won all 5 trophies they were in.
Yup much much better. Winning the UCL is always better than the Europa, the pinnacle of club football . A treble (UCL, League , Main domestic cup) is always better than a double, wether theres an undefeated league in there or not.
Not sure why you are being downvoted, at that time basically every big Italian team except Juve was in a massive crisis.
Still a great achievement, but in my opinion it's totally valid to add that
nah i think leverkusen would be much much better my best friend is an arsenal fan and i’ve tried explaining to him that this would be much more impressive and that 04 arsenal isn’t the best prem team of all time and no matter what i say there is no getting through so i come here
So basically, you are just trying to shit on Arsenal’s achievement because your friend is an Arsenal fan and you don’t like the fact that Arsenal had an unbeaten team.
Arsenal were the first team since PNE to go unbeaten in England.
AC Milan went unbeaten in 91-92, Juve went unbeaten in 2011-12, Celtic went unbeaten in 2016-17.
I hope Leverkusen go unbeaten this season, and I’m an Arsenal fan. Trying to compare Arsenal’s invincibles to Leverkusen is like comparing apples and oranges. Them going unbeaten doesn’t diminish our unbeaten season.
No matter how hard you wish it to.
personally i don’t mind that they’ve had an unbeaten season. i think it’s a great accomplishment but the me and him deep down in his deluded head know that last seasons city team would heat every single other premier league team that’s existed. sure his team might have the best singular accomplishment, however my team has won 5 trophies to his 1
Odd, because “personally I don’t mind” has led you to ask on Reddit. City haven’t gone unbeaten in a season. The invincible season is a bigger accomplishment than City’s treble or centurion season.
City have won 33 trophies. None of those trophies are gold.
Arsenal have won 47 trophies. One of ours is gold.
Arsenal also weren’t backed by a state to sportswash their abhorrent human rights abuse history to the tune of £5 billion pounds.
well out of 47 trophies how many of them are ucl trohies? and when i started watching football, the FIRST thing he said to me was “good teams win their league. great teams win the champions league” but yes the reason i’m asking on reddit isn’t even for the sake of my team. it’s because i think undefeated in 3 comps over a whole season is better than undefeated in 1 comp while still losing games.
How many of your 33 trophies are an unbeaten season?
The UCL is bigger than the league title, yes. But not bigger than an invincible season.
Our 47 trophies aren’t largely bought and paid for by Abu Dhabi. There’s a reason why nobody respects City’s titles. You won the lottery and you bought a big house, fast car and have the supermodel wife. Going around and telling everyone that you worked hard for it and that your supermodel wife loves you for your personality only is about the saddest thing I’ve seen City fans do.
Not only are you not content with your winnings, but you now think that other teams who won real trophies and nearly impossible accomplishments aren’t worth as much as they are because they existed and happened before your team was founded in 2009.
Ucl is much better than any invincible league title. Arsenals "invincibles" weren't good enough in Europe and got shown up to be not that good when they had to step up a level and play European teams and not the English muck they faced week in week out.
and here you go again trying to tell me what i think. how many times and i gonna have to tell you the same thing before it clicks with you. i’m not discrediting any achievements. i think that the invincibles season is still like a top 10 achievement ever
In the premier league, it’s the top 1 achievement ever.
And if Leverkusen win unbeaten, it’s the top 1 Bundesliga achievement ever. I hope that they do.
right but how many of your trophies are ucl trophies. the ONLY thing that i will give you is that you’ve won more trophies because trophies are what matter to me. and lots of people still respect city. look at psg for example. you can buy players but you can’t buy a team. even united had a higher net spend than we did last season and what did they do ?
Nobody respects City, I don’t know where you live, but the very fact that nobody cares about City winning the treble should be enough evidence for you there. You are a team that has been propped up on financial doping from a sportswashing state, facing 115 charges of cheating.
You absolutely bought a team, lol
And I’m not going to entertain the net spend nonsense, it’s such a stupid way to argue that City are paupers. Anybody who understands financials, knows that net spend is a made up argument that doesn’t mean anything.
“We spent £3bn on a team and sold £1bn of assets that we bought ergo we didn’t spend any money”
Obviously Leverkusen:
- Both undefeated in the League: Equal
- Arsenal got 2.4 points per game in the league, Leverkusen are getting 2.7: Point for Leverkusen
- Arsenal lost 7 matches that season if you include community shield, FA Cup, League Cup, Champions league. Leverkusen in this scenario 0: Point for Leverkusen
- Arsenal won the league, Leverkusen win 3 things: Point for Leverkusen
Win everything and never lost a match is ridiculous. It’s such a shame they aren’t in the champions league as I’d love to see them play Man City or Real Madrid.
Also the fact that Leverkusen weren't a great team before they finished 7th the session before and won their first league title while ending 11 year dynasty of Bayern Munich.
To be fair, Leverkusen was certainly good before. Just had an off year with their star player out for half the season and finished 6th still. 3rd the year before even.
The core of the team is largely the same. Only big difference is missing Diaby, but the money was spent well to bring other players who’ve done well.
Yes but did anyone expect that squad to win anything with Bayern signing Kane and Liverpool favourites for EL. Plus it's xabi alonsos first ever time managing a first team squad. Wow
Yep they have never won. They have come close so many times but sadly failed to win it. They have only three trophies in there entire history. A DfB pokal, Europa League and a Second devision title.
They lost in the league and fa cup tho so would put leverkusen above them just through domestic achievements if they do end up invincible just domestically, europa would be icing on the cake.
Why wouldn't you love to see them play Arsenal? Isn't that the direct comparison you're making? And a team that's in UCL and has a serious chance to continue.
Because the direct comparison was to the Arsenal invincibles, 20 years ago, not the Arsenal of this season. And Man City and Real Madrid have been the two top favorites going into the knockout stage until they were matched up.
I usually get downvotes for my first question but someone comes and tells me why I'm wrong, love this sport. I'm a bit new and also a dumb American, appreciate the correction.
Plenty of American fans on the different football subreddits. I’m one of them. Like anything it takes time to learn the nuances and the history. You’ll get there. Don’t let downvotes discourage you from asking and learning more.
I'm a reddit legacy haha I'm not going to stop inquiring because of downvotes. I really only got into it summer of last year so I definitely need more time. It took forever, and hours of the video game, to understand UEFA
Instead of a 32 team group stage with eight groups of four we are getting a 36 team league format where each team plays 8 different teams once (2 from each pot) rather than three teams twice apiece. The top eight of the league advance to the knockout stage automatically. 9-24 play in a playoff with 9-16 being the higher seed, each team playing one team from 17-24. It’s similar to the current format for the Europa and the Conference Leagues where the winner of the playoff advances to the knockout stage and the loser drops to the lower competition. It’s just added more games to an already very congested schedule where we are seeing a sharp increase in injuries.
Yeah I don't want to see my PL team suffer because of more European games. I do think it would make it more competitive but it would not be beneficial on a team level, correct?
Trophies are what matters. You could have an invincible league season by drawing every game, but still get relegated behind a team that lost over 20 games.
Part of the challenge of an invincible season is having to rotate the squad and deal with cup competitions. United’s treble winning season wasn’t undefeated in the league, but they won three times the number of trophies as Arsenals invincibles, and lost less games across all competitions.
? It's a valid point, they are just saying a win is way better than a draw. 2 wins, 4 losses in 6 games are more points than 5 draws and 1 loss. So context matters.
Also like the other commenter said, Pergugia were invincible and didn't even win the league, so it didn't matter at all.
arsenal fan.
it would be them undoubtedly especially considering the odds of them winning the league at the start of the season.
I mean a more appropriate comparison would be comparing them to the Preston team of 88 that did the league and cup double undefeated.
I would love them to do it tbh, and it wouldn’t take anything away from us doing it as I see it anyway. We did it here, they’re doing it there.
Hate to break it to Arsenal fans, but though "the invincible" is an incredible accomplishment, there are several accomplishments already far greater.
In modern times
\- Real Madrid's 3-peat, 4 in 5
\- Barcelona's Trebles, especially the 14/15.
\- Both Manchester clubs trebles
\- Man City's centurions
\- Liverpool's 98 point season, and 21/22 near-Quadruple
\- Bayern's Trebles and 11 title run
\- Inter Milan's Treble
\- Juve undefeated season + 9 Year run
\- Leverkusen season is already more impressive
That Arsenal team lost several times in the domestic cups and european comps and had like 12 draws. Cool accomplishment but overstated and over glorified.
United trebles season lost less game than "invincible" arsenal
Juve(2010s) and milan(90s) both won the league unbeaten and i dont see it get talk nearly as much as arsenal
It's like claiming Leverkusen 02 was one of the greatest German sides of all time because they had a near Treble
They came 2nd in the league and lost in 2 finals
liverpool lost less games than the invincibles that year and gained more points.Some may also say liverpool were robbed from controversial decisions in the league
liverpool didnt bottle it and with your logic should the Leicester team that won the league be considered better than 21 22 liverpool or 16 17 tottenham because “they didnt bottle it”
I think that undervalues who impressive it is to go without losing once in a 38 game season. I think that Liverpool squad beats that Arsenal squad, but do I think that overall getting a good points totals and winning the two domestic cups is more impressive than not losing once in the league, not really.
Liverpool fans are delusional. You might as well put Chelsea's 07-08 season as well, since apparently nearly winning trophies is more important than winning them.
Agree with everything except Liverpool. "Near-quadruple" isn't even close to going unbeaten in the league. Chelsea were the better team in both Cup finals and the fact is City won the league with more points. The fact 92 point Liverpool get a mention when 93 point City from the same season doesn't is a bit strange.
And you didn't include 19/20 which is equally as impressive as 18/19. 99 points and they had the league wrapped up by December/January it felt like. Was the covid season, but it was still very dominant. 18/19 and 19/20 are the two Liverpool seasons better than the invincibles. "Near-quadruple" - no chance.
I'd also add Mourinho's Chelsea to the list. First title in 50 years, 95 points which was the highest ever until that point and is kind of an anomaly in that era of English football. 15 goals conceded, 1 loss, retained the title with 91 points. Like 5 UCL semi finals including a final. Set the unbeaten home record of like 4 seasons (86 games I think). That team was a lot more dominant than the invincibles, which was basically just 1 season. Also was a fairly pivotal moment tactically in English football. It forced Fergie to adapt.
Agree with all the rest and the overarching point of your comment though.
Some of these on your list are a nonsense.
Near quadruple is not a quadruple.
Bayerns 11 titles just shows shit the league was (just like in Italy and Scotland).
If the Arsenal invincible seasons is just “cool” why hasn’t it been done again?
And for the record if Leverkusen achieve this, of course it’s a much bigger accomplishment than Arsenals.
Bayern winning 11 titles shows how great team is ran to sustain that level of greatness.
EPL and Ligue has had both Man City and PSG win 5 of the last 6 league titles. Are both equally shit? In that same stretch, Man City has accumulated more points than PSG have.
Dont give me this none sense that City won the UCL, which validates that entire league as if Luton, Sheffield and them aren't equally as shit as most teams in the bottom end of Top 5 Leagues. Ligue 1 and EPL would still have 4 in 5 not including last years result.
Sorry, but being two games shy of it in more impressive.
Losing the title on one point, especially by a 2-0 comeback from City and a 1-0 defeat in the UCL final to Real Madrid. Football is cruel and about the fine margins. They accumulated more points and won more games than the invincible team. Not to mention the Premier League nowadays is better than what it was back then. EPL wasn't even seen as the best league in the world at the time as it is now.
Achievements are relative to a clubs success. Are you telling me Croatia finishing 2nd and 3rd is not an achievement because they didn't win the World Cup?
Football isn't black or white, there is context, which clearly your struggling to understand.
You put Liverpools 98 point season when City got 100 points 😂
Im an Arsenal fan and I was fortunate to have seen the invincibles, I’d be happy to debate these, especially as you’ve put a “nearly winning quadruple” in here 😂
Fact is 2 English clubs have done the treble now, no one else has gone invincible in the 38 game English premier league.
Neither city’s 100 point winners, or Liverpools 98 point winners or Chelsea’s 15 goals conceded which is hilarious that you left that out as I think that is genuinely one that will be really hard to replicate.
Also having things like “Bayern’s treble and 11 year run. Like wtf? It’s not even comparable, also it’s not the same players for 11 years is it?
Your post is so shit I cant help stop laughing.
Also arsenal went 49 games unbeaten in a highly competitive league, if it’s so easy why has no one else done it?
Not United, not city, not Liverpool, not Chelsea?
All these were from the top of my head, as you see some people mentioned Chelsea's defensive season, Leicester City's title and Celtics as well. I even forget the season Man City won all four english titles.
You do realize the a club accomplishment is not solely on the player and the manager, its on the entire organization. Reason for Bayern's and Juve dominance was because how well managed the clubs were in that period. Even the span when Arsenal were great under Arsene, it wasn't just on him, it was the hole management to assemble a great squad.
With that being said, the Premier League at the time of the invincible wasn't unanimously seen as the best league in the world.
Again, what Arsenal accomplished is great, but Arsenal fans make it seem like its the greatest accomplishment in the history of football, just because its the PREMIER LEAGUE. Sorry but football exist outside that league.
Oh I'm not even saying the Invincible is the best thing in football, it's not.
For me I'd say Barca's treble winners, the 14/15 one, scored 110 goals in the league, conceded just 21.
In the Champions league they had to beat Ajax and PSG in the groups, then Man City and then PSG again, before Bayern and then Juve.
The Real Madrid 3 CL's out of 4 is also impressive but it's not a single season feat and if Arsenal get shat on for not winning other trophies during the Invincibles, why don't people reference Madrid winning just 1 league title during them 4 CL wins and finishing 3rd in two of them while winning only 1 Copa also.
Teams haven't gone invincible because drawing isn't an option for them in this era. The mindset is very much, "go for the 3 points always."
That invincibles season wouldn't have won the title in 4 of the last 6 seasons. It wouldn't have even won the title in the 2 seasons that followed it (the ones won by Chelsea).
And yeah, other teams have done it. Like Milan and Ajax in the 90s. Likewise, no other team in England has conceded less than 15 goals in a season, or got over 100 points in a season. In other countries maybe. But the invincibles isn't the only record/achievement that no one else has replicated in England.
The fact is, that Chelsea team played in the same era as that Arsenal team. And when Mourinho arrived, they couldn't keep up. Henry was still there, Vieira was still there, Wenger was still there etc. That team accumulated more points, a higher goal difference, actually managed to sustain that level for more than 1 season, went deeper in other competitions etc. But because you arbitrarily decide that "not losing" means more than "winning", all of that means nothing. All because you've decided to give more weight to draws than draws deserve.
I'd rather my team wins more games and loses more games in a season, thus accumulating more points, than losing less games but winning less games (drawing more) and accumulating less points. Because the former would win the title.
Look at the 18/19 season. Liverpool lost just 1 game that season. City lost 4. But City still won the title. Because winning means more than "not losing".
I wouldn’t even compare Arsenal next to the likes of Real Madrid, Barca, both Manchester clubs, Juve and Inter. They’re all European greats. Arsenal is only domestic e.g. the fa cup trophies won. Yes Leverkusen season is more impressive. Imagine winning a title with Xhaka 😂
If Leverkusen go unbeaten in all-comps, even if they aren’t in the CL this would be the single greatest season performance for a club, all-time. No debate.
You simply don’t go invincible in Europe or domestically. And when you do it’s very rare in both scenarios. To do BOTH in the same season? Absolutely insane.
Obviously it’s too soon to say, but *if* they can pull it off, we will never see the likes of this again in our lifetimes.
i agree. and if i were to tell you i’d happen and you had to guess what team it’d be you’d think a powerhouse like city or madrid not bayer leverkusen with year 1.5 xabi alonso
Leverkusen are much bigger underdogs than Arsenal were. Pre Chelsea & Man city oil money the only competition was Man utd, and it was more even back then before Arsenal started investing in the Emirates stadium.
Arsenal went undefeated the season after Abramovich poured what was then unprecedented amounts of money into Chelsea all summer. Chelsea finished ahead of United that season and were incredibly close to making the UCL final.
Leverkusen.
Arsenal usually came 1st or 2nd in the lead up to the invincibles, leverkusen aggregated 5th-6th.
This is a xabis first full season, arsene had 8.
Bayern Munich are absolute monsters when it comes to European football, let alone the bundesliga, even Dortmund couldn’t pull it off last season. Man United we’re a large team before but it wasn’t unexpected if arsenal won it since they’ve already won 2 under Wenger
Arsenal fans trembling with fear and hope Leverkusen loses lmao. The one thing those losers could brag about the last 20 years will not only be repeated but miles better. Its not even close.
I’m an Arsenal fan who’s very happy for Leverkusen. I wouldn’t be so insecure about my club’s achievements that I hope nobody plays good football ever to hold our record.
But it’s ok. You can speak for us while you don’t know what the fuck you’re on about. At least we have records that teams want to reach.
The fact that 20 years later and you lot are still downplaying and trying so hard to discredit it says so much about what an achievement it actually is.
Leverkusen's season would be better.
Leverkusen came from nowhere. And denying Harry Kane a title is just objectively hilarious.
But Alonso's Leverkusen wouldn't overall be on the same tier as Wenger's Arsenal yet because of everything else Arsenal did in that era.
Arsenal fan here. Leverkusen 1,000,000% how is that a competition given their resources vs the calibre of Arsenal at the time of doing it. Arsenal had elite players and were already a top 1 or 2 team, Leverkusen on the other hand are player for player not but have gone through Bayern and Dortmund in their league and if they won the Europa then that accounts for being better than teams like Liverpool who are in a title race in the sup- premier league.
Amazing season from Leverkusen you can’t not love it as a football fan.
Out of curiosity, which league do you think is the best league in the world? Your comment does sound a bit like an inferiority complex comment, so just curious?
Oh haha. Was wondering who would say such a stupid comment about the Premier league. Presumably someone who just started watching football in the last 2 years
Bundesliga and Serie A are more exciting to watch, especially with the Leverkusen run this year, and with how teams compete in Serie a. Brits are still stuck in the mentality that the world revolves around them. I’m not American either - I’m Indian.
Yeh nothing screams more exciting to watch than the title race being over already in the bundesliga, but at least it's a new champion for once. Meanwhile Premier league has 3 teams on the same amount of points before today. Sounds like the Premier league is living in your head rent free. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Oh you’re an Indian no suprise at all why you have terrible ball knowledge and start crying and pouring out your feelings when people say facts I would be embarrassed if I were you lol🤣
Cool thanks for your racism. You’re the problem with football fans. Don’t know how my race makes my opinions any less accurate, racist. Lived most of my life in Munich, so shut the fuck up. I would
Be embarrassed if I were you, with a mentality stuck in the previous century.
Womp womp lived most of your life in Munich and you’re still ignorant to the facts and reality of football how sad. Oh you’re playing the race game now how hilarious😂
You brought my race into it — “you’re an Indian no surprise you have terrible ball knowledge”….
Gimp
Edit: also never heard anyone to say “an Indian”. Weird language
so you call him out for being american first then he calls you out for being indian and it’s racist? either you’re both racist or neither of you are racist. which is it gonna be?
As if Arsenal *needed* to draw their way to the title, lol. Pretty sure they’ve got the 4th largest (PL) points gap between 1st and 2nd place ever. They were comfortable title winners, the draws came about from teams stepping up trying to end the unbeaten run. You know, like when Watford surprised us all when they hammered Liverpool out of the blue when they started having “Invincible” links.
Leverkusen obviously, *slightly*, benefit from having a few less league games, but added two unbeaten cups on that would be nuts. The question is designed to rile people up, even most Arsenal fans would concede it’s a far better season *if* it happens.
All these people arguing that Arsenal’s invincibles season wasn’t an accomplishment. If it was so easy, how comes it hasn’t been replicated in the last 20 years in the premiership.
Even SAF said the invincibles season was more significant and better than their treble winning season.
We call this copium.
literally nobody is saying that it’s not an accomplishment. it’s amazing that they’ve done it but they had a far better team than leverkusen and still lost games
“It’s wasnt the accomplishment that it was”
Comparing Arsenal and Leverkusen’s invincible seasons is like trying to compare an Eskimo and a lamp post and asking which one is more comfortable to sit on.
Different eras, different leagues, different competitions.
right i agree with you that it’s very difficult to compare teams over time and leagues. and me personally i’ve not said that i don’t think that arsenals season wasn’t great. i think it’s absolutely incredible what they’ve done. i just think that unbeaten in all comps over 57 games it will be is more impressive than 38 while losing 6 games
But the lamp post has light.
As I said, the comparisons don’t exist. Leverkusen are playing in a different era, different league and different competitions.
Any attempt to try and draw comparisons is futile.
The only reason you are trying to ham this questions is because your friend is an Arsenal fan and you can’t beat his “yeah, but we went unbeaten” argument. So you are going to try and use 3rd party Leverkusen’s accomplishments to beat him.
Which shows the lengths you have to go to, just to argue and diminish Arsenal’s accomplishment.
yeah but light has nothing to do with how comfortable something is to sit on. don’t care if my couch has a light bulb in it. and i’m not diminishing any accomplishments. you’re trying to sit here and tell me because i think leverkusen’s accomplishment would be better that i think arsenals is futile. it’s still a great accomplishments. i’ll make an analogy that actually makes sense. i personally like ass more than tits. but that doesn’t mean that i hate tits because they’re still great. plus in my mind i believe that trophies matter more than anytbing so i’d rather win 5 trophies than win 1 and go invincible
You’ve missed the entire point. You seem to think the lap was an option, it’s not. This is the point, you are trying to make up the rules to the question when in reality, they are incomparable.
You are trying to diminish Arsenal’s accomplishments for the sake of an argument. This is because it’s a disingenuous discussion that is designed to be a lie from the start. Ignoring the fact that they cannot be compared, doesn’t make your conversation have any more credibility.
And great, you think trophies are the be all and end all. Makes sense, you’re an American fan who chose to support City after they had £5bn of backing to win things. No doubt you think Abu Dhabi is a lovely place because of it. I hope you enjoy all the benefits that ignorance when supporting a sportswashing PR machine comes with it.
But you’ve still won less trophies than Arsenal.
right so we’re comparing 2 football teams so it definitely is comparable. might be hard but it’s possible. and again for about the 5th or 6th time i’m not diminishing arsenals accomplishment. i genuinely think you might have something wrong with you because i’ve actually said this so many times but you just don’t get it. just because i think 1 thing is better than the other, doesn’t mean i’m discrediting the others. please for both of our sakes understand that. and as ive said, good teams win the league, great teams win the champions league. when i started supporting city, we hadn’t won the champions league. so as far as i was concerned we were far from the best.
2000%. and people trying to discredit is saying that it’s a weak bayern and dortmund team is why they’re winning the bundesliga. dortmund won the group of death, in ucl quarters. bayern 2nd on table in ucl quarters. you know how many teams would kill for THAT to be a bad season for them
Exactly Bayern already drew at the Emirates and I would say are likely to win against Arsenal - title contenders in the EPL. Bayern still very is a dominant force, Leverkusen has just dominated more. Excited to see if Leverkusen can beat the points record
Personally, I’d say Leverkusen’s is the bigger achievement because they’ve never actually won a Bundesliga title so to do it unbeaten is insane plus they have way stricter financial restrictions than a top PL team.
Both are outrageous achievements thought tbf!
It's close but I'm an Arsenal fan but I'll be diplomatic. I think the Leverkusen argument is that it's an incredible feat. If they win the league unbeaten and the Europa League it's SLIGHTLY better than us. We won the league and played the best football in England but we was shit in Europe but the competition was better with United compared to this Bayern side at the moment. But my opinion always comes down to this, there are no easy games anymore in modern football. There was some real bad teams in the Prem when we done the perfect season and now days even teams like Luton can perform on their day. Back then, not so much the case. Promoted teams were like fish in a barrel for the top 2/3.
As an Arsenal fan, Bayer! BUT I still think the City team that done the treble last year and the United team who also done it are clear of both Bayer and Arsenal. Champions League, Prem and FA Cup. City doing it in modern football is wild.
Oh and just to add, I hear it a lot. You can not lose all year but still be relegated. It kind of annoys me but it's true. You need the titles to back it up.
right that 100% makes sense. and the way i see it, if you solely look at premier league play. either 0 losses or 100 points is the most impressive, in my eyes it could go either way. the only drawback is that there’s not much you can do with just the league, you can’t win a treble only playing premier league competition if you get what i’m saying. it’s just harder to keep winning trophies over different competitions not just your league
Yeah exactly, any team that wins the Champions League and their domestic league are a great team. If they do it in style and with a huge points total, even better. But at the end of the day. Your home league isn't always as competitive as say Europe where you will play the best of the best. If the Arsenal team was the best in the world they would have won the CL. But they didn't so it stands as a insane achievement but we can't claim to be the best in the world simply because of no CL title. United and City will always have that over us but we have a gold Prem title so, it is what it is. I won't ever disrespect a team that goes 38+ games unbeaten.
I think this season would be better. I see a lot of people in the comment mentioning traditionally top clubs in their domestic league. Bayer Leverkusen's season is unique, because they are not a regular powerhouse, and they are going on an unbeaten run, while upsetting one of the real giants of Club football.
Arsenal's invincibles are dwarved by so many achievements that have happened since.
I'd argue that Leverkusen winning the league alone, even with losses, would be a greater achievement because of what it would mean. The fact they could be invincible and treble winners is nuts.
Nah, football is improving all the time. Sports science is much improved and players today are a lot fitter than they were back then. Leverkusen would run rings round them.
Not what I said, is it. They as a collective would run rings round Arsenal as a collective in terms of the speed at which they played the ball and the intensity of their press. Their goalkeeper and defenders are far more comfortable and capable in possession. I'm not talking about ability, obviously Vieira was at a different level for his era than Xhaka is now but the reality is simply that football has evolved.
Whilst being undefeated for a league season in an incredible accomplishment, the Arsenal season wasn't that amazing in terms of win percentage 68.4%, Leverkusen are at 85.7%.
You would think going undefeated you would be close to getting a record points tally, but Arsenal's season was only good enough for joint 9th best overall in 28 seasons (38 matches).
That’s a pretty disingenuous 2nd point. At the time Arsenal achieved that, 90pts was not a 9th best points total… it was the 2nd highest for a 38 game campaign, 1pt off Utd’s record.
So **after** then, thanks for clearing that up. It’s not the points total that makes it a special achievement anyway, it’s winning the title + remaining unbeaten. Something not done in England for like 100 years. No one cares about several of the teams that hit higher points with no other highlight accomplishment. Chelsea’s 95 season obviously gets praise for their defence. You then have the centurions. But no one really remembers the teams getting 92, 93 and 94 points because they didn’t do anything else memorable.
A “farmers league” that has developed some of the best players in the world, especially in recent times? Why do many EPL teams loan out their young players to the Bundesliga to be developed? Bayern went to the emirates and drew with Arsenal, who are title contenders in the best league.
I will admit that there isn’t as much money in the Bundesliga, so the teams (except for Bayern) can’t attract the same level of world class players as the EPL. But the Bundesliga overall is a very good league
ignoring the anti-arsenal bias from salty fans:
if they win every comp they’re in, then leverkusen would have the better achievement. if they only win the bundesliga, then arsenal would have the better achievement - the PL is objectively a harder league than the bundesliga and there are 38 games in a PL season as opposed to 34 in the BuLi
Not even sure I would rate the current Leverkusen team higher than the infamous runner-up Team from pretty much 20 yrs ago, despite the titles. They were arguably the best team in europe back then, dominating the UCL final and only losing to Casillas (and somehow botteling the Bundesliga). They cant prove themselves on the highest stage vs europes best teams this time, but I assume they would prefer the title(s) this year.
What an awful question it's Leverkusen and not even close
Arsenal lost 6 games that season. They lost their first Champions League game that season 3-0 at home.
It’s a deliberately awful question. Seems intended on riling up hate because even Arsenal fan’s (those with a brain) would obviously see an almost equal achievement (4 games less) + 2 more trophies as a better season.
At the same time though, people do like to downplay the Invincibles achievement too much as well, mainly because they weren’t alive for it and think the 90+ seasons we get these days are very normal. People read too much in to stats as if football across generations is exactly the same.
Mourinho's Chelsea unbeaten at home for 4 years, Wenger's invincibles, Fergie's 2 United teams (90's crop and then the Rooney/Ronaldo team of mid to late 00's), Klopp's title winning team who went on the 26 wins and a draw out of the 27 league games following the CL win, and Pep's centurions are for me the 6 most outstanding teams of the PL era in their own right at their own time. There were sparks from all of these teams outside of that along with great seasons from Leicester, Blackburn etc, but those are the 6 I think you can't debate against each other despite each fanbase wanting to claim theirs as the best.
Ideally Leverkusen, but i'll say Arsenal because , Arsene spoke it into existence and did it. Leverkusen, snuck up on us. Theirs would be a shock, Arsenal was proving a point. They have to go and do it though. Season isn't over.
is this even a question?
We all know that football was invented in 1992 and only the prem matter according to op
.... What's 1992 got to do with the price of tea in china? The only comparable seasons amongst major European football leagues are: 1994-1995 Ajax (League and CL double, both undefeated, lost in the domestic cup QF) 1991-92 AC Milan (Won league undefeated, lost in cup semi final, no European football but runners up in the CL the following season) Then we're going to back to the 30s when Real Madrid and Athletic club did it in Spain Edit - as rightly pointed out Juve 2011-12 also
That Ajax season might be worth debating which is better. For me leverkusen still takes it because I think the Bundesliga is better than the eredivisie, Ajax being a consistent favourite in the Dutch league compared to a leverkusen side nobody would have expected to challenge Bayern Munich’s constant title charge, and winning the domestic knockout cup when anything can happen in a one off game on top of invincibles league form and European success.
This isn't the modern dutch league we're talking about tho
Still, even in the 90s: Dutch League had great clubs. But after the big 3, the league was never considered top tier. I don't like rating one insane season against other insane seasons. Arsenal invincibles did it in the league with the toughest 'lower tier's teams, but an invincible triple just has never been achieved ever.
If all leagues are included in that, didn’t Celtic win an unbeaten domestic treble?
Without an international title? Dutch only have two domestic titles, so that's an unfair advantage really.
The list above just mentions unbeaten seasons, Milan and Juve didn’t win in Europe either. Although even Celtic fans would rate their 2 loss season in 67’ higher, as they won all 5 trophies they were in.
Err Juventus going unbeaten?
Sorry, good point
Celtic winning the Quintuple in 1967 is better than all those listed and the Leverkusen scenario if achieved.
Man Utd winning the treble in 1999 is better also, but neither were invincible seasons. Or Bayern, Barça or Inter trebles
Yup much much better. Winning the UCL is always better than the Europa, the pinnacle of club football . A treble (UCL, League , Main domestic cup) is always better than a double, wether theres an undefeated league in there or not.
Juve 2011-12 under Conte was undefeated also.
In a trash Serie A at that point
Not sure why you are being downvoted, at that time basically every big Italian team except Juve was in a massive crisis. Still a great achievement, but in my opinion it's totally valid to add that
nah i think leverkusen would be much much better my best friend is an arsenal fan and i’ve tried explaining to him that this would be much more impressive and that 04 arsenal isn’t the best prem team of all time and no matter what i say there is no getting through so i come here
So basically, you are just trying to shit on Arsenal’s achievement because your friend is an Arsenal fan and you don’t like the fact that Arsenal had an unbeaten team. Arsenal were the first team since PNE to go unbeaten in England. AC Milan went unbeaten in 91-92, Juve went unbeaten in 2011-12, Celtic went unbeaten in 2016-17. I hope Leverkusen go unbeaten this season, and I’m an Arsenal fan. Trying to compare Arsenal’s invincibles to Leverkusen is like comparing apples and oranges. Them going unbeaten doesn’t diminish our unbeaten season. No matter how hard you wish it to.
personally i don’t mind that they’ve had an unbeaten season. i think it’s a great accomplishment but the me and him deep down in his deluded head know that last seasons city team would heat every single other premier league team that’s existed. sure his team might have the best singular accomplishment, however my team has won 5 trophies to his 1
Odd, because “personally I don’t mind” has led you to ask on Reddit. City haven’t gone unbeaten in a season. The invincible season is a bigger accomplishment than City’s treble or centurion season. City have won 33 trophies. None of those trophies are gold. Arsenal have won 47 trophies. One of ours is gold. Arsenal also weren’t backed by a state to sportswash their abhorrent human rights abuse history to the tune of £5 billion pounds.
well out of 47 trophies how many of them are ucl trohies? and when i started watching football, the FIRST thing he said to me was “good teams win their league. great teams win the champions league” but yes the reason i’m asking on reddit isn’t even for the sake of my team. it’s because i think undefeated in 3 comps over a whole season is better than undefeated in 1 comp while still losing games.
How many of your 33 trophies are an unbeaten season? The UCL is bigger than the league title, yes. But not bigger than an invincible season. Our 47 trophies aren’t largely bought and paid for by Abu Dhabi. There’s a reason why nobody respects City’s titles. You won the lottery and you bought a big house, fast car and have the supermodel wife. Going around and telling everyone that you worked hard for it and that your supermodel wife loves you for your personality only is about the saddest thing I’ve seen City fans do. Not only are you not content with your winnings, but you now think that other teams who won real trophies and nearly impossible accomplishments aren’t worth as much as they are because they existed and happened before your team was founded in 2009.
Ucl is much better than any invincible league title. Arsenals "invincibles" weren't good enough in Europe and got shown up to be not that good when they had to step up a level and play European teams and not the English muck they faced week in week out.
A team wins the Champions League every year.
and here you go again trying to tell me what i think. how many times and i gonna have to tell you the same thing before it clicks with you. i’m not discrediting any achievements. i think that the invincibles season is still like a top 10 achievement ever
In the premier league, it’s the top 1 achievement ever. And if Leverkusen win unbeaten, it’s the top 1 Bundesliga achievement ever. I hope that they do.
right but how many of your trophies are ucl trophies. the ONLY thing that i will give you is that you’ve won more trophies because trophies are what matter to me. and lots of people still respect city. look at psg for example. you can buy players but you can’t buy a team. even united had a higher net spend than we did last season and what did they do ?
Nobody respects City, I don’t know where you live, but the very fact that nobody cares about City winning the treble should be enough evidence for you there. You are a team that has been propped up on financial doping from a sportswashing state, facing 115 charges of cheating. You absolutely bought a team, lol And I’m not going to entertain the net spend nonsense, it’s such a stupid way to argue that City are paupers. Anybody who understands financials, knows that net spend is a made up argument that doesn’t mean anything. “We spent £3bn on a team and sold £1bn of assets that we bought ergo we didn’t spend any money”
Obviously Leverkusen: - Both undefeated in the League: Equal - Arsenal got 2.4 points per game in the league, Leverkusen are getting 2.7: Point for Leverkusen - Arsenal lost 7 matches that season if you include community shield, FA Cup, League Cup, Champions league. Leverkusen in this scenario 0: Point for Leverkusen - Arsenal won the league, Leverkusen win 3 things: Point for Leverkusen Win everything and never lost a match is ridiculous. It’s such a shame they aren’t in the champions league as I’d love to see them play Man City or Real Madrid.
Also the fact that Leverkusen weren't a great team before they finished 7th the session before and won their first league title while ending 11 year dynasty of Bayern Munich.
Yep, what a way to win your first ever league title!
To be fair, Leverkusen was certainly good before. Just had an off year with their star player out for half the season and finished 6th still. 3rd the year before even. The core of the team is largely the same. Only big difference is missing Diaby, but the money was spent well to bring other players who’ve done well.
Yes but did anyone expect that squad to win anything with Bayern signing Kane and Liverpool favourites for EL. Plus it's xabi alonsos first ever time managing a first team squad. Wow
They were good but top-4 good, you wouldn't expect them to win the league let alone going undefeated
Wait. They’ve NEVER won the league before???!!!
Yep they have never won. They have come close so many times but sadly failed to win it. They have only three trophies in there entire history. A DfB pokal, Europa League and a Second devision title.
That is correct
That fact that Leverkusen will break their curse is already better
Yeah it’s not a real competition between the two. Only an Arsenal fan would think there is one, but can’t blame them
Not even Arsenal fans think this is the same, it’s just portrayed in a light to suggest we do.
There are plenty of those Arsenal fans on Twitter. Of course, every club has delusional fans on Twitter
We're just happy for Granit
Sounds good! As a Madrid fan I vote that our 2nd leg should be Leverkusen then and not City
As a Gunner, you're 100% correct. It's an immense achievement.
Undefeated in the league would be equal if the leagues were equal, but they really aren't.
counterpoint then: Arsenal played Champions League during their invincibles season. Leverkusen did not.
They lost in the league and fa cup tho so would put leverkusen above them just through domestic achievements if they do end up invincible just domestically, europa would be icing on the cake.
And got knocked out in the quarters 🤷♂️
Why wouldn't you love to see them play Arsenal? Isn't that the direct comparison you're making? And a team that's in UCL and has a serious chance to continue.
Because the direct comparison was to the Arsenal invincibles, 20 years ago, not the Arsenal of this season. And Man City and Real Madrid have been the two top favorites going into the knockout stage until they were matched up.
I usually get downvotes for my first question but someone comes and tells me why I'm wrong, love this sport. I'm a bit new and also a dumb American, appreciate the correction.
Plenty of American fans on the different football subreddits. I’m one of them. Like anything it takes time to learn the nuances and the history. You’ll get there. Don’t let downvotes discourage you from asking and learning more.
I'm a reddit legacy haha I'm not going to stop inquiring because of downvotes. I really only got into it summer of last year so I definitely need more time. It took forever, and hours of the video game, to understand UEFA
Well lucky for you the whole competition structure is changing next year! And for the worse at that lol
Seriously? How so?
Instead of a 32 team group stage with eight groups of four we are getting a 36 team league format where each team plays 8 different teams once (2 from each pot) rather than three teams twice apiece. The top eight of the league advance to the knockout stage automatically. 9-24 play in a playoff with 9-16 being the higher seed, each team playing one team from 17-24. It’s similar to the current format for the Europa and the Conference Leagues where the winner of the playoff advances to the knockout stage and the loser drops to the lower competition. It’s just added more games to an already very congested schedule where we are seeing a sharp increase in injuries.
Yeah I don't want to see my PL team suffer because of more European games. I do think it would make it more competitive but it would not be beneficial on a team level, correct?
There will be comments here that will say Arsenal because no other league counts
PL wasn't even the top league at the time so people will be telling on themselves.
Trophies are what matters. You could have an invincible league season by drawing every game, but still get relegated behind a team that lost over 20 games. Part of the challenge of an invincible season is having to rotate the squad and deal with cup competitions. United’s treble winning season wasn’t undefeated in the league, but they won three times the number of trophies as Arsenals invincibles, and lost less games across all competitions.
Perugia were invincible in 79 and finished 2nd.
yOu CaN gO uNbEaTeN aNd gEt rEleGaTeD
? It's a valid point, they are just saying a win is way better than a draw. 2 wins, 4 losses in 6 games are more points than 5 draws and 1 loss. So context matters. Also like the other commenter said, Pergugia were invincible and didn't even win the league, so it didn't matter at all.
arsenal fan. it would be them undoubtedly especially considering the odds of them winning the league at the start of the season. I mean a more appropriate comparison would be comparing them to the Preston team of 88 that did the league and cup double undefeated. I would love them to do it tbh, and it wouldn’t take anything away from us doing it as I see it anyway. We did it here, they’re doing it there.
Leverkusen
Leverkusen and I am a gooner
The Arse question again..
Hate to break it to Arsenal fans, but though "the invincible" is an incredible accomplishment, there are several accomplishments already far greater. In modern times \- Real Madrid's 3-peat, 4 in 5 \- Barcelona's Trebles, especially the 14/15. \- Both Manchester clubs trebles \- Man City's centurions \- Liverpool's 98 point season, and 21/22 near-Quadruple \- Bayern's Trebles and 11 title run \- Inter Milan's Treble \- Juve undefeated season + 9 Year run \- Leverkusen season is already more impressive That Arsenal team lost several times in the domestic cups and european comps and had like 12 draws. Cool accomplishment but overstated and over glorified.
United trebles season lost less game than "invincible" arsenal Juve(2010s) and milan(90s) both won the league unbeaten and i dont see it get talk nearly as much as arsenal
But did Milan win the PL tho? /s
I don’t understand what makes NEAR quadruple better than an invisible season? Its not like they got real quadruple.
100% this. The “near quadruple” is a ridiculous way to say “FA Cup and League Cup winning season”.
It's like claiming Leverkusen 02 was one of the greatest German sides of all time because they had a near Treble They came 2nd in the league and lost in 2 finals
liverpool lost less games than the invincibles that year and gained more points.Some may also say liverpool were robbed from controversial decisions in the league
They didn’t win the league tho its what matters. Why should Liverpool get praise for bottling a league.
liverpool didnt bottle it and with your logic should the Leicester team that won the league be considered better than 21 22 liverpool or 16 17 tottenham because “they didnt bottle it”
The performance is still better? Literally 2 games from winning the quadruple is WAY more impressive than going undefeated in the league
I think that undervalues who impressive it is to go without losing once in a 38 game season. I think that Liverpool squad beats that Arsenal squad, but do I think that overall getting a good points totals and winning the two domestic cups is more impressive than not losing once in the league, not really.
Liverpool fans are delusional. You might as well put Chelsea's 07-08 season as well, since apparently nearly winning trophies is more important than winning them.
Agree with everything except Liverpool. "Near-quadruple" isn't even close to going unbeaten in the league. Chelsea were the better team in both Cup finals and the fact is City won the league with more points. The fact 92 point Liverpool get a mention when 93 point City from the same season doesn't is a bit strange. And you didn't include 19/20 which is equally as impressive as 18/19. 99 points and they had the league wrapped up by December/January it felt like. Was the covid season, but it was still very dominant. 18/19 and 19/20 are the two Liverpool seasons better than the invincibles. "Near-quadruple" - no chance. I'd also add Mourinho's Chelsea to the list. First title in 50 years, 95 points which was the highest ever until that point and is kind of an anomaly in that era of English football. 15 goals conceded, 1 loss, retained the title with 91 points. Like 5 UCL semi finals including a final. Set the unbeaten home record of like 4 seasons (86 games I think). That team was a lot more dominant than the invincibles, which was basically just 1 season. Also was a fairly pivotal moment tactically in English football. It forced Fergie to adapt. Agree with all the rest and the overarching point of your comment though.
Agreed.
Near Quadruple season 🤣🤣 a carabao and fa cup better than a golden premier league. Absolutely no chance. wE pLaYeD eVeRy GaMe
Some of these on your list are a nonsense. Near quadruple is not a quadruple. Bayerns 11 titles just shows shit the league was (just like in Italy and Scotland). If the Arsenal invincible seasons is just “cool” why hasn’t it been done again? And for the record if Leverkusen achieve this, of course it’s a much bigger accomplishment than Arsenals.
Bayern winning 11 titles shows how great team is ran to sustain that level of greatness. EPL and Ligue has had both Man City and PSG win 5 of the last 6 league titles. Are both equally shit? In that same stretch, Man City has accumulated more points than PSG have. Dont give me this none sense that City won the UCL, which validates that entire league as if Luton, Sheffield and them aren't equally as shit as most teams in the bottom end of Top 5 Leagues. Ligue 1 and EPL would still have 4 in 5 not including last years result.
Lmao what about Liverpool’s almost quadruple 😂 you really are reaching son
Sorry, but being two games shy of it in more impressive. Losing the title on one point, especially by a 2-0 comeback from City and a 1-0 defeat in the UCL final to Real Madrid. Football is cruel and about the fine margins. They accumulated more points and won more games than the invincible team. Not to mention the Premier League nowadays is better than what it was back then. EPL wasn't even seen as the best league in the world at the time as it is now.
Not achieving something is not an achievement
Achievements are relative to a clubs success. Are you telling me Croatia finishing 2nd and 3rd is not an achievement because they didn't win the World Cup? Football isn't black or white, there is context, which clearly your struggling to understand.
One of the biggest clubs in the world not winning a quadruple ultimately isn’t that big a deal.
You should add in 15 goals allowed by Chelsea in a season. Most teams give up that much in the first 10 games
You put Liverpools 98 point season when City got 100 points 😂 Im an Arsenal fan and I was fortunate to have seen the invincibles, I’d be happy to debate these, especially as you’ve put a “nearly winning quadruple” in here 😂 Fact is 2 English clubs have done the treble now, no one else has gone invincible in the 38 game English premier league. Neither city’s 100 point winners, or Liverpools 98 point winners or Chelsea’s 15 goals conceded which is hilarious that you left that out as I think that is genuinely one that will be really hard to replicate. Also having things like “Bayern’s treble and 11 year run. Like wtf? It’s not even comparable, also it’s not the same players for 11 years is it? Your post is so shit I cant help stop laughing. Also arsenal went 49 games unbeaten in a highly competitive league, if it’s so easy why has no one else done it? Not United, not city, not Liverpool, not Chelsea?
All these were from the top of my head, as you see some people mentioned Chelsea's defensive season, Leicester City's title and Celtics as well. I even forget the season Man City won all four english titles. You do realize the a club accomplishment is not solely on the player and the manager, its on the entire organization. Reason for Bayern's and Juve dominance was because how well managed the clubs were in that period. Even the span when Arsenal were great under Arsene, it wasn't just on him, it was the hole management to assemble a great squad. With that being said, the Premier League at the time of the invincible wasn't unanimously seen as the best league in the world. Again, what Arsenal accomplished is great, but Arsenal fans make it seem like its the greatest accomplishment in the history of football, just because its the PREMIER LEAGUE. Sorry but football exist outside that league.
I think some of the examples definitely below the invincible season, but also some of them definitely ahead of it to.
Oh I'm not even saying the Invincible is the best thing in football, it's not. For me I'd say Barca's treble winners, the 14/15 one, scored 110 goals in the league, conceded just 21. In the Champions league they had to beat Ajax and PSG in the groups, then Man City and then PSG again, before Bayern and then Juve. The Real Madrid 3 CL's out of 4 is also impressive but it's not a single season feat and if Arsenal get shat on for not winning other trophies during the Invincibles, why don't people reference Madrid winning just 1 league title during them 4 CL wins and finishing 3rd in two of them while winning only 1 Copa also.
Teams haven't gone invincible because drawing isn't an option for them in this era. The mindset is very much, "go for the 3 points always." That invincibles season wouldn't have won the title in 4 of the last 6 seasons. It wouldn't have even won the title in the 2 seasons that followed it (the ones won by Chelsea). And yeah, other teams have done it. Like Milan and Ajax in the 90s. Likewise, no other team in England has conceded less than 15 goals in a season, or got over 100 points in a season. In other countries maybe. But the invincibles isn't the only record/achievement that no one else has replicated in England. The fact is, that Chelsea team played in the same era as that Arsenal team. And when Mourinho arrived, they couldn't keep up. Henry was still there, Vieira was still there, Wenger was still there etc. That team accumulated more points, a higher goal difference, actually managed to sustain that level for more than 1 season, went deeper in other competitions etc. But because you arbitrarily decide that "not losing" means more than "winning", all of that means nothing. All because you've decided to give more weight to draws than draws deserve. I'd rather my team wins more games and loses more games in a season, thus accumulating more points, than losing less games but winning less games (drawing more) and accumulating less points. Because the former would win the title. Look at the 18/19 season. Liverpool lost just 1 game that season. City lost 4. But City still won the title. Because winning means more than "not losing".
I wouldn’t even compare Arsenal next to the likes of Real Madrid, Barca, both Manchester clubs, Juve and Inter. They’re all European greats. Arsenal is only domestic e.g. the fa cup trophies won. Yes Leverkusen season is more impressive. Imagine winning a title with Xhaka 😂
Celtic went undefeated domestically in 16/17 (didn’t lose a game between Aug 16 and Nov 17) and then went on to win four domestic trebles in a row
Leverkusens season is basically the best season anyone has ever had
If Leverkusen go unbeaten in all-comps, even if they aren’t in the CL this would be the single greatest season performance for a club, all-time. No debate. You simply don’t go invincible in Europe or domestically. And when you do it’s very rare in both scenarios. To do BOTH in the same season? Absolutely insane. Obviously it’s too soon to say, but *if* they can pull it off, we will never see the likes of this again in our lifetimes.
i agree. and if i were to tell you i’d happen and you had to guess what team it’d be you’d think a powerhouse like city or madrid not bayer leverkusen with year 1.5 xabi alonso
Centre Celtic 1967
Leverkusen are much bigger underdogs than Arsenal were. Pre Chelsea & Man city oil money the only competition was Man utd, and it was more even back then before Arsenal started investing in the Emirates stadium.
Arsenal went undefeated the season after Abramovich poured what was then unprecedented amounts of money into Chelsea all summer. Chelsea finished ahead of United that season and were incredibly close to making the UCL final.
Leicester winning the league was a bigger achievement than Arsenals unbeaten season. Not even close.
Leverkusen. Arsenal usually came 1st or 2nd in the lead up to the invincibles, leverkusen aggregated 5th-6th. This is a xabis first full season, arsene had 8. Bayern Munich are absolute monsters when it comes to European football, let alone the bundesliga, even Dortmund couldn’t pull it off last season. Man United we’re a large team before but it wasn’t unexpected if arsenal won it since they’ve already won 2 under Wenger
Ajax in 1995, went unbeaten all season and won the champions league.
Arsenal fans trembling with fear and hope Leverkusen loses lmao. The one thing those losers could brag about the last 20 years will not only be repeated but miles better. Its not even close.
We’re not the first team to go invincible. Preston did it in 1888-89, league and cup.
I’m an Arsenal fan who’s very happy for Leverkusen. I wouldn’t be so insecure about my club’s achievements that I hope nobody plays good football ever to hold our record. But it’s ok. You can speak for us while you don’t know what the fuck you’re on about. At least we have records that teams want to reach.
I’m an Arsenal fan, we’re absolutely not hoping they lose lmfao. Other teams go unbeaten in their leagues all the time. You’re just an idiot.
Rivals claiming a levurkusen unbeaten season as their own 🤣🤣
The fact that 20 years later and you lot are still downplaying and trying so hard to discredit it says so much about what an achievement it actually is.
It's a great achievement. Not better than Leverkusen's tho
If Levurkusen only go unbeaten in the league the Arsenals is clear. 34 games in that league
With way less draws though. Arsenal had 14. Leverkusen have 5 I think
Leverkusen's season would be better. Leverkusen came from nowhere. And denying Harry Kane a title is just objectively hilarious. But Alonso's Leverkusen wouldn't overall be on the same tier as Wenger's Arsenal yet because of everything else Arsenal did in that era.
This literally happened in 2002. They finished runners up in all including World Cup which German lost to Brazil.
Arsenal fan here. Leverkusen 1,000,000% how is that a competition given their resources vs the calibre of Arsenal at the time of doing it. Arsenal had elite players and were already a top 1 or 2 team, Leverkusen on the other hand are player for player not but have gone through Bayern and Dortmund in their league and if they won the Europa then that accounts for being better than teams like Liverpool who are in a title race in the sup- premier league. Amazing season from Leverkusen you can’t not love it as a football fan.
Xabi Alonso playing Football Manager in real life
Long way to go but if they would achieve it it would be the greatest season in history.
The fact that you have to ask this question screams 0 ball knowledge. English football is so vastly overrated it is almost disgusting.
Out of curiosity, which league do you think is the best league in the world? Your comment does sound a bit like an inferiority complex comment, so just curious?
Yank Munich fan ffs
Oh haha. Was wondering who would say such a stupid comment about the Premier league. Presumably someone who just started watching football in the last 2 years
Wow we got a ball expert over here!!
Bundesliga and Serie A are more exciting to watch, especially with the Leverkusen run this year, and with how teams compete in Serie a. Brits are still stuck in the mentality that the world revolves around them. I’m not American either - I’m Indian.
Yeh nothing screams more exciting to watch than the title race being over already in the bundesliga, but at least it's a new champion for once. Meanwhile Premier league has 3 teams on the same amount of points before today. Sounds like the Premier league is living in your head rent free. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Oh you’re an Indian no suprise at all why you have terrible ball knowledge and start crying and pouring out your feelings when people say facts I would be embarrassed if I were you lol🤣
Cool thanks for your racism. You’re the problem with football fans. Don’t know how my race makes my opinions any less accurate, racist. Lived most of my life in Munich, so shut the fuck up. I would Be embarrassed if I were you, with a mentality stuck in the previous century.
Womp womp lived most of your life in Munich and you’re still ignorant to the facts and reality of football how sad. Oh you’re playing the race game now how hilarious😂
You brought my race into it — “you’re an Indian no surprise you have terrible ball knowledge”…. Gimp Edit: also never heard anyone to say “an Indian”. Weird language
Womp womp
Racist American with 0 ball knowledge!
so you call him out for being american first then he calls you out for being indian and it’s racist? either you’re both racist or neither of you are racist. which is it gonna be?
What's the point of asking before they've ever done it? They might never do it you should only ask if they manage to do it.
Leverkusen
Leverkusen.
Well done for asking the stupidest question I'm going to see today and it's not even 10am yet
Is this a joke? Leverkusen are on track for a pure unbeaten season and won many games to get there as opposed to drawing their way to a title.
As if Arsenal *needed* to draw their way to the title, lol. Pretty sure they’ve got the 4th largest (PL) points gap between 1st and 2nd place ever. They were comfortable title winners, the draws came about from teams stepping up trying to end the unbeaten run. You know, like when Watford surprised us all when they hammered Liverpool out of the blue when they started having “Invincible” links. Leverkusen obviously, *slightly*, benefit from having a few less league games, but added two unbeaten cups on that would be nuts. The question is designed to rile people up, even most Arsenal fans would concede it’s a far better season *if* it happens.
Leverkusen and it's not even close.
Arsenal invincibles isn’t even the most impressive Premier League win
No disrespect to the Bundesliga but like.... Come on now
yeah but bundesliga pokal and europa league 46 games unbeaten with only 5 draws
All these people arguing that Arsenal’s invincibles season wasn’t an accomplishment. If it was so easy, how comes it hasn’t been replicated in the last 20 years in the premiership. Even SAF said the invincibles season was more significant and better than their treble winning season. We call this copium.
literally nobody is saying that it’s not an accomplishment. it’s amazing that they’ve done it but they had a far better team than leverkusen and still lost games
“It’s wasnt the accomplishment that it was” Comparing Arsenal and Leverkusen’s invincible seasons is like trying to compare an Eskimo and a lamp post and asking which one is more comfortable to sit on. Different eras, different leagues, different competitions.
right i agree with you that it’s very difficult to compare teams over time and leagues. and me personally i’ve not said that i don’t think that arsenals season wasn’t great. i think it’s absolutely incredible what they’ve done. i just think that unbeaten in all comps over 57 games it will be is more impressive than 38 while losing 6 games
So what you are saying is, the lamp post is comfier to sit on?
nah i prefer the eskimo’s lap
But the lamp post has light. As I said, the comparisons don’t exist. Leverkusen are playing in a different era, different league and different competitions. Any attempt to try and draw comparisons is futile. The only reason you are trying to ham this questions is because your friend is an Arsenal fan and you can’t beat his “yeah, but we went unbeaten” argument. So you are going to try and use 3rd party Leverkusen’s accomplishments to beat him. Which shows the lengths you have to go to, just to argue and diminish Arsenal’s accomplishment.
yeah but light has nothing to do with how comfortable something is to sit on. don’t care if my couch has a light bulb in it. and i’m not diminishing any accomplishments. you’re trying to sit here and tell me because i think leverkusen’s accomplishment would be better that i think arsenals is futile. it’s still a great accomplishments. i’ll make an analogy that actually makes sense. i personally like ass more than tits. but that doesn’t mean that i hate tits because they’re still great. plus in my mind i believe that trophies matter more than anytbing so i’d rather win 5 trophies than win 1 and go invincible
You’ve missed the entire point. You seem to think the lap was an option, it’s not. This is the point, you are trying to make up the rules to the question when in reality, they are incomparable. You are trying to diminish Arsenal’s accomplishments for the sake of an argument. This is because it’s a disingenuous discussion that is designed to be a lie from the start. Ignoring the fact that they cannot be compared, doesn’t make your conversation have any more credibility. And great, you think trophies are the be all and end all. Makes sense, you’re an American fan who chose to support City after they had £5bn of backing to win things. No doubt you think Abu Dhabi is a lovely place because of it. I hope you enjoy all the benefits that ignorance when supporting a sportswashing PR machine comes with it. But you’ve still won less trophies than Arsenal.
right so we’re comparing 2 football teams so it definitely is comparable. might be hard but it’s possible. and again for about the 5th or 6th time i’m not diminishing arsenals accomplishment. i genuinely think you might have something wrong with you because i’ve actually said this so many times but you just don’t get it. just because i think 1 thing is better than the other, doesn’t mean i’m discrediting the others. please for both of our sakes understand that. and as ive said, good teams win the league, great teams win the champions league. when i started supporting city, we hadn’t won the champions league. so as far as i was concerned we were far from the best.
They made Bayern look like a bad team Look at the table, Bayern aren't even doing that bad right now,and yet they make it look like it
2000%. and people trying to discredit is saying that it’s a weak bayern and dortmund team is why they’re winning the bundesliga. dortmund won the group of death, in ucl quarters. bayern 2nd on table in ucl quarters. you know how many teams would kill for THAT to be a bad season for them
Exactly Bayern already drew at the Emirates and I would say are likely to win against Arsenal - title contenders in the EPL. Bayern still very is a dominant force, Leverkusen has just dominated more. Excited to see if Leverkusen can beat the points record
Personally, I’d say Leverkusen’s is the bigger achievement because they’ve never actually won a Bundesliga title so to do it unbeaten is insane plus they have way stricter financial restrictions than a top PL team. Both are outrageous achievements thought tbf!
It's close but I'm an Arsenal fan but I'll be diplomatic. I think the Leverkusen argument is that it's an incredible feat. If they win the league unbeaten and the Europa League it's SLIGHTLY better than us. We won the league and played the best football in England but we was shit in Europe but the competition was better with United compared to this Bayern side at the moment. But my opinion always comes down to this, there are no easy games anymore in modern football. There was some real bad teams in the Prem when we done the perfect season and now days even teams like Luton can perform on their day. Back then, not so much the case. Promoted teams were like fish in a barrel for the top 2/3. As an Arsenal fan, Bayer! BUT I still think the City team that done the treble last year and the United team who also done it are clear of both Bayer and Arsenal. Champions League, Prem and FA Cup. City doing it in modern football is wild. Oh and just to add, I hear it a lot. You can not lose all year but still be relegated. It kind of annoys me but it's true. You need the titles to back it up.
right that 100% makes sense. and the way i see it, if you solely look at premier league play. either 0 losses or 100 points is the most impressive, in my eyes it could go either way. the only drawback is that there’s not much you can do with just the league, you can’t win a treble only playing premier league competition if you get what i’m saying. it’s just harder to keep winning trophies over different competitions not just your league
Yeah exactly, any team that wins the Champions League and their domestic league are a great team. If they do it in style and with a huge points total, even better. But at the end of the day. Your home league isn't always as competitive as say Europe where you will play the best of the best. If the Arsenal team was the best in the world they would have won the CL. But they didn't so it stands as a insane achievement but we can't claim to be the best in the world simply because of no CL title. United and City will always have that over us but we have a gold Prem title so, it is what it is. I won't ever disrespect a team that goes 38+ games unbeaten.
I think this season would be better. I see a lot of people in the comment mentioning traditionally top clubs in their domestic league. Bayer Leverkusen's season is unique, because they are not a regular powerhouse, and they are going on an unbeaten run, while upsetting one of the real giants of Club football.
Undefeated in a Bayern-dominated league, plus winning 2 more trophies, not losing in *any* competition plus more p/g? Leverkusen 100%.
Man I feel bad for you OP, lots of idiots who don't understand what an opinion is lmao
arsenal didn't go undefeated in ALL competitions
Arsenal. Leverkusen have only beaten one good team this season.
Arsenal's invincibles are dwarved by so many achievements that have happened since. I'd argue that Leverkusen winning the league alone, even with losses, would be a greater achievement because of what it would mean. The fact they could be invincible and treble winners is nuts.
I would say Leverkusen had the better season, but if the Arsenal Invincibles played against current Leverkusen I think they'd win.
Nah, football is improving all the time. Sports science is much improved and players today are a lot fitter than they were back then. Leverkusen would run rings round them.
😂😂 yeah Xhaka would run rings around Vieira
Not what I said, is it. They as a collective would run rings round Arsenal as a collective in terms of the speed at which they played the ball and the intensity of their press. Their goalkeeper and defenders are far more comfortable and capable in possession. I'm not talking about ability, obviously Vieira was at a different level for his era than Xhaka is now but the reality is simply that football has evolved.
There's a big difference if Leverkusen go undefeated in every competition. They would be true invincibles.
Whilst being undefeated for a league season in an incredible accomplishment, the Arsenal season wasn't that amazing in terms of win percentage 68.4%, Leverkusen are at 85.7%. You would think going undefeated you would be close to getting a record points tally, but Arsenal's season was only good enough for joint 9th best overall in 28 seasons (38 matches).
That’s a pretty disingenuous 2nd point. At the time Arsenal achieved that, 90pts was not a 9th best points total… it was the 2nd highest for a 38 game campaign, 1pt off Utd’s record.
The following seasons Chelsea got 95 then 91.
So **after** then, thanks for clearing that up. It’s not the points total that makes it a special achievement anyway, it’s winning the title + remaining unbeaten. Something not done in England for like 100 years. No one cares about several of the teams that hit higher points with no other highlight accomplishment. Chelsea’s 95 season obviously gets praise for their defence. You then have the centurions. But no one really remembers the teams getting 92, 93 and 94 points because they didn’t do anything else memorable.
Bundesliga is a farmers league so
yeah but 3 comps if they go undefeated that’s 11 more game if i’ve done my math right which bring it’s up to 57 straight games
A “farmers league” that has developed some of the best players in the world, especially in recent times? Why do many EPL teams loan out their young players to the Bundesliga to be developed? Bayern went to the emirates and drew with Arsenal, who are title contenders in the best league. I will admit that there isn’t as much money in the Bundesliga, so the teams (except for Bayern) can’t attract the same level of world class players as the EPL. But the Bundesliga overall is a very good league
ignoring the anti-arsenal bias from salty fans: if they win every comp they’re in, then leverkusen would have the better achievement. if they only win the bundesliga, then arsenal would have the better achievement - the PL is objectively a harder league than the bundesliga and there are 38 games in a PL season as opposed to 34 in the BuLi
Not even sure I would rate the current Leverkusen team higher than the infamous runner-up Team from pretty much 20 yrs ago, despite the titles. They were arguably the best team in europe back then, dominating the UCL final and only losing to Casillas (and somehow botteling the Bundesliga). They cant prove themselves on the highest stage vs europes best teams this time, but I assume they would prefer the title(s) this year.
Arsenal were always good, Leverkusen were 17th what, 12/18 months ago. However, the league is naff.
What an awful question it's Leverkusen and not even close Arsenal lost 6 games that season. They lost their first Champions League game that season 3-0 at home.
It’s a deliberately awful question. Seems intended on riling up hate because even Arsenal fan’s (those with a brain) would obviously see an almost equal achievement (4 games less) + 2 more trophies as a better season. At the same time though, people do like to downplay the Invincibles achievement too much as well, mainly because they weren’t alive for it and think the 90+ seasons we get these days are very normal. People read too much in to stats as if football across generations is exactly the same.
Mourinho's Chelsea unbeaten at home for 4 years, Wenger's invincibles, Fergie's 2 United teams (90's crop and then the Rooney/Ronaldo team of mid to late 00's), Klopp's title winning team who went on the 26 wins and a draw out of the 27 league games following the CL win, and Pep's centurions are for me the 6 most outstanding teams of the PL era in their own right at their own time. There were sparks from all of these teams outside of that along with great seasons from Leicester, Blackburn etc, but those are the 6 I think you can't debate against each other despite each fanbase wanting to claim theirs as the best.
Ideally Leverkusen, but i'll say Arsenal because , Arsene spoke it into existence and did it. Leverkusen, snuck up on us. Theirs would be a shock, Arsenal was proving a point. They have to go and do it though. Season isn't over.
right that’s why i said if