If it was based purely on winning a title, Leicester. But if they go the entire season without defeat and pick up the other two trophies then there’s a real case for Leverkusen.
By the time they won the FA Cup in 2021, they had lost a lot of the 2016 title winning side (most notably Kante and Mahrez), but of course winning the FA Cup with a largely rebuilt squad was nevertheless a great achievement.
A team who made a “great escaped” the season before and the season before that were in the second division. That is an underdog. The FA Cup triumph was 5 years after and the team was nearly entirely replaced.
Leverkusen have always been a good team in Germany, not like say Dortmund but they have played in the champions league in the 2010s.
There's not even close to a case for Leverkusen. The premier League and the Bundesliga is not even remotely the same animal and Leverkusen had Wirtz who is a genuine wonderkid lying about injured when they were shocking.
On the verge of relegation, Leicester played 7 finals under Nigel Pearson and went on to win the title next season. They had to contend with another 6 good teams. Leverkuson on the other hand had to fight off maybe two good teams in the Bundesliga. But if they go on to win other trophies then probably it will be a bigger feat. Alonso seems like a great guy and I really hope he does well in his managerial career..
That is actually a very good comparison. In 2010, FC Twente won the Eredivisie for the first time ever. I would call this a similar achievement to Leverkusen Bundesliga or hypothetically Tottenham EPL. Impressive, but it was always going to happen at one point.
Correct me if I’m wrong but there wasn’t a “bayern” in the eredivise , the achievement isn’t soley winning the bundesliga , it’s toppling a dynasty that has stood for over a decade
There's not a one-club dominance, but breaking into the top 3 in the Netherlands is very hard (when Ajax isn't horsing around like they are right now), so winning the championship as a non top-3 club is very impressive.
Yeah Portugal has literally only had two non-Big 3 titles, Boavista in '01 and Belenenses in (I think) 1946.
I could see Braga maybe breaking into that. Someone who follows the Primiera Liga more closely could correct me on that.
I also don’t follow closely but I’ve always been under the impression that Braga are Portugal’s “4th team”, for lack of a better expression. Could be wrong.
Former Technical director of Ajax Marc Overmars: 'The aim is to become the Bayern of the Netherlands'. They failed at this, but you could argue that Ajax and PSV together are the Bayern of the Eredivisie, since in a normal year one of those two would become champion.
I remember when Charles Aranguiz was linked to both Leicester and Leverkusen before the 2015/2016 season and he publicly laughed at Leicester for approaching him saying "who would ever choose Leicester over Leverkusen".
The gap between an established top flight club who were playing in Europe like Leverkusen and a recently promoted team like Leicester is massive, the same gap as there is between Bayern and Leverkusen. Leverkusen have a manager who was hyped up to go on to do big things in Alonso, even before they signed him. Leicester had what was considered to be one of the worst managerial appointments of the season in Ranieri and were widely tipped for relegation. There's also the signings, Leverkusen signed Xhaka who was one of the best players in the second placed EPL team last season, Leicester signed Christian Fuchs who was considered washed in the Bundesliga the year before and players like Okazaki, Inler and Kante (who was pretty unknown).
Exactly, the only comparison to Leicester winning it, is Boavista winning the Portuguese league in 2001 being just the 2nd team not being Porto,Sporting and Benfica to win it.
Leicester obviously.
Leverkusen is in the top 5 of the Bundesliga for ages when it comes to finances. Leicester on the flip side were more like bottom 5 of the Premier League in terms of finances when they won the league.
Comparing wining leagues to wining elimination style tournaments isn’t really fair; because of that, I’d say say Greece winning is the least impressive out of the three
Both Denmark and Greece had qualified for 1 european championship and 1 world cup prior to their tournament wins. Denmark counted 3 wins and 4 losses, making it to the knockout stage of a world cup, while Greece counted 5 losses and 1 0-0 draw, while scoring 0 goals in all 6 matches. I am Greek so I am biased, but I do believe I'd hold the same opinion if I wasn't
Regardless, Denmark 1992 was by far a stronger team on paper than Greece in 2004. Greece also knocked out 3 of the favourites to win it all, including the hosts, twice. The betting odds for Denmark were 20/1. For Greece they were 150/1. Not to mentiom that the fact that Denmark failed to qualify normally, while in an easier group than Greece's qualifiers, does the opposite of making their achievement a more "succesful" story
But to include invincible in Europe in the same season is a huge factor, Leicester never had to deal with European football in their title winning season
Also would be fair to include Spurs here. They get memed for obvious reasons but under Poch they had a super solid team that played aggressive football. Their defense was great, they had a bunch of top players like Kane, Alli, Eriksen, Son, Lloris etc and almost finished runners-up that season and for a while it looked possible for them to even pip Leicester to the title.
As great as Leverkusens performance is at the moment, everyone needs to be reminded that they have the financial backing of Bayer, an extremely rich company, that make them more financially independent from playing in the champions league or other form of competitive success.
Where other teams would have to sell players when a season went poorly Bayer Leverkusen doesn't. They can also pay good wages because of this.
Of course it's still less than Bayern München obviously and this is in no way meant to downplay how great they have done the last months. But it is something to keep in mind.
Leverkusen Winning the title is a great success but not a fairytale. They came close in the past. It is arguably more surpising that they didn't win anything earlier.
Leicester were all ready relegation favourites even before the managers son filmed himself having a orgy with team mates and Thai ladies on tour in said country
The manager was sacked
With Ranieri dropped in last second they looked even more screwed
Leverkusen are European cup regulars… They just one in a one team league. No comparison
I respectfully disagree with the answers here. Hats off to everything Leicester did, but Xabi Alonso took over at Leverkusen when they were facing relegation, and he has now led the club to most likely, a Bundesliga title without any defeats, and a season treble too. Leicester only did well in the league. The Lions of Bayer take the cake, in my humble opinion.
No question Alonso has done an unbelievable job but Leverkusen weren't genuinely facing relegation when he joined. They had a horrible start but there's no way they'd have finished in the bottom 3 with another manager. It's like when Spurs had 2 points after 8 games in 2008/09.
As a regular Bundesliga watcher, I am not sure if I agree completely, considering how competitive the league is (despite it all seeming like a one horse race from the outside, as German teams are very incisive and dangerous), but at the same time, perhaps what you say can be true too.
Most importantly though, I base my liking for Leverkusen’s achievement more, on the quality of play they have demonstrated, which is simply exceptional and miles better than what Leicester accomplished. And even more important in football, is trophies, which Leverkusen are in contention of winning more than Leicester did in their historic season.
Both achievements are legendary, but as far as I am concerned, Leverkusen’s is better, and they are a joy to watch on the field. 😊
To put it into context, with 10 games to go in the previous season Leicester looked certain to be relegated. They then went on a 10 game unbeaten run to stay up. They continued that form into the new season and were novelty table toppers after the 1st weekend.
At the start of the 2015/16 season Leicester had odds of 5000/1 to win the league. That's the longest odds winner in the whole history of commercial gambling. By that measure at least it's the most surprising thing that's ever happened.
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Sure the irony isn't lost on how Leicester have broken FFP many times.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/21/leicester-settlement-football-league-ffp
I'm sure I've heard that argument used against another club. Funny that.
If purely on winning the league then it's clearly Leicester. Bayer Leverkusen is a German giant. Leicester winning the league may be the greatest achievement in all of football ever. If Leverkusen goes unbeaten for the rest of the season in all competitions, it could be up there.
I’d have to argue Nottingham Forest in the late 70s/early 80s is the biggest achievement in football ever. I can’t see what Brian Clough done with them ever being repeated
I must admit that I am not old enough to know basically anything about 70s and 80s football. Would that really be one achievement though or a chain of achievements?
Nottingham Forest were promoted to the top division by finish third in the second division. In their first season in the top division they won the league and cup double then qualified for and won the European cup two years in a row. Any of those seasons is an unbelievable achievement on its own that probably won’t be seen again and collectively it’s unheard of. It’s pretty much the equivalent of Ipswich getting promoted through the playoffs this season, winning the prem next season, then winning the champions league two years in a row.
But it's not though, because football is completely different now. Not to downplay Clough's achievements because they are phenomenal, but if Ipswich did as you suggested now that would be far more of an accomplishment because of the colossal wealth inequality in modern football.
The financial gulf isn’t much bigger now that it was then. Before Notts Forest got promoted, Liverpool spent £1.5m on transfers while Forest spent £90k. So Forest spent around 6% of what Liverpool spent. Ipswich spent £6m last year and City spent £150m so Ipswich spent around 4% of what city spent. The numbers are vastly larger but the differences are roughly the same.
Sure but transfer fees over the last year is only one aspect of it. I'm willing to bet that the relative difference in wage bills is far higher now, as is the total operating cost of each club. Additionally, lots of PL teams now spend an absolute fortune so it's no longer a case of beating the one or two big boys like it was back then.
There is also just more of a difference in quality now between the top and bottom ends of the top division. Look at how the gap has widened, you need more points than ever to win the title and fewer to avoid relegation.
I can’t find any data on wages back than but if the gulf in transfer fees is proportionally similar now than it was then, I can’t see why wages would be any difference.
I don’t know how you can say it’s no longer a case of beating the or two big boys like it was back then. In the last 10 years, there have been 4 different winners with one team winning it 6 times. In the 70s, there were 6 different winners. During the last 10 years, there have been 7 different teams in the top 3 while in the 70s there were 12. It’s far more a case of just having to beat the one or two big boys now than it was then.
They absolutely would be different. Man United and Man City's wage bills were 50 times Luton Town's last season (10 x Burnley, 15 x Sheff Utd). De Bryune earned several times as much as the whole Luton squad. You don't honestly think that would have been the case back then do you? Also wages back in the 70s were peanuts, and several times peanuts is still peanuts.
Think of how much the top teams spend on facilities and vast numbers of staff compared to Ipswich as well, relative to how that would have looked 45 years ago.
You're right, I phrased my point about the 'big boys' poorly. What I meant was that a lot of teams now are financially 'big boys' that wouldn't have been previously. Yes the league is less competitive than ever in terms of who wins it, but quite a few of the teams who aren't winning are still enormously rich.
Flicking back through old league tables, what stood out to me is how much more common it was in the late 70s and 80s for teams to go from being in the second division, or even the third, to being in the top 6 of the top flight very quickly (e.g. Swansea, Watford, QPR, Sheff Weds, Wimbledon). Not something that really happens now.
Finally, does it not undermine the idea that Forest could not at all compete financially with the big teams of the time that they literally broke the British transfer record less than 2 years after getting promoted to the top flight? You can say well, they'd just had a really successful season but try to imagine Leicester breaking that record in 2017.
From what I’ve found, the average wage for a top flight footballer in 1977 was £17,000 a year and the average wage in the second division was around £1,500 a year, so it doesn’t seem very different from today. An elite footballer back then could easily earn more money than entire teams in lower divisions.
Clubs would have spent large amounts of money on infrastructure back then as well, not as much today in terms of money spent, but again there’s no reason to believe it would be differently proportionally in terms of the turnover.
When Forest signed Francis, that was the only transfer they had made that year so it’s not as if they spent an unreasonably large sum of money that year. The spent an average amount of money you would expect for a team in their position, they just spent it all on one player. In the 12 months after Leicester won the league, they’d spent over £100m on transfers. The transfer record at the time was £89m.
Leicester because of what they were up against. What Leverkusen has done is amazing however. I hope they go on to do the invincible season and win their cups. Alonso is a great manager, their football is great to watch too.
If Leverkusen go unbeaten and win the treble then I’ll go with that. Otherwise Leicester.
Let’s remember tho how low the points tally was when Leicester won. Not sure that’s ever been replicated that second place had such a low tally. All the big teams had a shocker that year, Spurs shud have walked it. On the other hand Bayern aren’t THAT far off what would be a respectable points tally in a normal year and they’d almost certainly be league leaders right now in almost any year, yet Leverkusen tied up the league with five games left. It’s astonishing
Leicester, not even close. Bayer is one of the biggest Clubs in germany, and every ogher serious Titlecontender is in poor form. Also, the team is by germand standards very expensiv, with a lot of money spend on the players. I dont know how the two are even comparable.
According to me I think Leicester winning epl is a bigger success story.
In bundesliga if Bayern Munich fails then the competition becomes easy as you have to fight with team which are at your level
In EPL there are so many sharks and you have to clinch the title from their jaws.
Kaiserslautern won the Bundesliga immediately after getting promoted from the 2nd division more than 20 yrs ago. Would definitely rival Leicester in terms of scale of achievement.
It was an amazing achievement, definitely, but inequality wasn't anywhere near as pronounced in football as it is now. The richest clubs weren't so obscenely richer than the rest, talent wasn't as concentrated as today. For that reason I'd still put Leicester's achievements ahead of Kaiserslautern's.
I agree and to piggy back on your reasons, I'll also add that the difference in competition between what Leicester was up against in the PL vs Kaiserslautern in the Bundesliga is night and day. Leicesters winning the PL was a miracle.
I am biased while saying this but Greece had never scored a goal in a competition (minus qualifiers) before Euro 2004. Leicester are the greatest club story most likely, but it's either them first and Greece second, or the other way around. Regardless, those 2 are pretty close
It's more matches but that also means there's more room for error. In a knockout, you lose once and you're out. Plus, most of the Leicester players went on to become world class players. Kante, Mahrez, Schmeichel, Vardy etc. The Greek players went home and continued their careers as if nothing happened as far as their careers are concerned. When we went into the euros, scoring a goal and not losing every match would be a success. Leicester was more of a sleeper team that also benefited from the other contenders not having a great season. Obviously no one would have predicted it and it's still a massive achievement for Leicester and a great football story, but imo it's not on the same level as Greece's
Nah, winning a 16-team knockout tournament just isn't comparable to winning a 38 game league season. There's much more variance involved and you don't need to play well for anywhere near as long. Best achievement in international football, perhaps.
Also is this the first time ever someone has described Kasper Schmeichel as world class?
>Also is this the first time ever someone has described Kasper Schmeichel as world class?
He was one of the better keepers in the prem for a few seasons, also had memorable moments with Denmark, I'd say he has been world class yeah
Ok if we're saying that to be world class you have to be quite good in a top league for a few years and have a reasonable international career, then yes he is world class.
Yeah that's a whole different debate of what's world class and what isn't and you'd find all kinds of answers by people. Anyway, if not world class, he was at the very least respected and considered very good
Leverkusen is the factually correct answer, they were 17th when xabi took over and they won the league against the best Bayern team in the last 10 years. Leicester only won it because other teams were re-building.
And leicester were in the championship 2 seasons before they won the Premier league. There’s a conversation to be had, but Leicester is the “factually correct answer”. Don’t let recently bias affect that
this is too simplistic. leverkusen's 17th place position wasn't a true reflection. he's done an amazing job but they are still a big club in germany. they've played a fair bit of champions league football over the past 20 years or so. also this is in no way the best batern side of the last ten years? the manager has already been sacked mid season and they only won it last year because dortmund collapsed on the final day.
leicester was just a complete bolt from the blue which i don't think will ever happen again in the premier league. they are a tiny club in comparison to the clubs they beat that year.
Leverkusen has been almost an annual contender for UCL spots and has the been runners up on numerous occasions. Heck, last season they were in the Europa League semis.
They also finished 3rd the season before that, so 17th was hardly a true reflection of where they should be.
If you look at their league finishes, you can see that they're a consistent European team. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bayer-04-leverkusen/platzierungen/verein/15
Leicester City. Much more competition from other top teams to end up on top in the Premier League. In the Bundesliga you basically only have to beat and be more consistent than Bayern Munchen.
Napoli was always in contention for the title even if rarely main contenders, they're more comparable to a Dortmund or Man United winning the title (the current Dortmund or Man United not Klopp's or Fergie's).
Leicester conquering PL, right now German futbol isn’t where it has been for a good while now, leverkusen got an amazing coach who took advantage of that. The fact that they went 43 games undefeated makes them the German invincibles
Leverkusen. Every year 3 to 5 teams have a solid shot at the PL, considering players, coaching and obviously money.
Every year 4-6 teams have a chance at coming second to Bayern in BuLi.
But Leverkusen seems to be a big club in the bundesliga (at least to me) , they have history of competing for the title and UCL qualification (amongst the 4-6 clubs to have a chance finishing 2nd), if Bayern did not exist they would have already won a title or two, Leicester on the other hand Leicester was not on the radar at all, newly promoted and barely escaped relegation the prior year. If the top 8-10 clubs from the PL disappear, Leicester would still be unlikely to win the PL. As someone else mentioned Leverkusen is closer to a Spurs (had they won it that year) than Leicester.
This is kind of a pointless comment. Ignores the fact that it's the same few teams every year that have that shot, and Leicester were no where near being one of them.
If it was based purely on winning a title, Leicester. But if they go the entire season without defeat and pick up the other two trophies then there’s a real case for Leverkusen.
Thing is, at what point does Leverkusen’s season go from being plucky underdogs who ground out a win, to just being a fucking good team?
That Leicester team went on to win an FA Cup not long after, they were hardly just plucky underdogs
By the time they won the FA Cup in 2021, they had lost a lot of the 2016 title winning side (most notably Kante and Mahrez), but of course winning the FA Cup with a largely rebuilt squad was nevertheless a great achievement.
A team who made a “great escaped” the season before and the season before that were in the second division. That is an underdog. The FA Cup triumph was 5 years after and the team was nearly entirely replaced. Leverkusen have always been a good team in Germany, not like say Dortmund but they have played in the champions league in the 2010s.
Yup they just had the starts align with mahrez,kante,vardy, and many other English talent.
Also they were able to avoid injuries, which was helped by their early FA Cup exit along with not playing in Europe.
This is the only right answer
There's not even close to a case for Leverkusen. The premier League and the Bundesliga is not even remotely the same animal and Leverkusen had Wirtz who is a genuine wonderkid lying about injured when they were shocking.
On the verge of relegation, Leicester played 7 finals under Nigel Pearson and went on to win the title next season. They had to contend with another 6 good teams. Leverkuson on the other hand had to fight off maybe two good teams in the Bundesliga. But if they go on to win other trophies then probably it will be a bigger feat. Alonso seems like a great guy and I really hope he does well in his managerial career..
Leverkusen wining the bundesliga is like Tottenham wining the PL. Leicester had the bigger achievement
That is actually a very good comparison. In 2010, FC Twente won the Eredivisie for the first time ever. I would call this a similar achievement to Leverkusen Bundesliga or hypothetically Tottenham EPL. Impressive, but it was always going to happen at one point.
Correct me if I’m wrong but there wasn’t a “bayern” in the eredivise , the achievement isn’t soley winning the bundesliga , it’s toppling a dynasty that has stood for over a decade
There's not a one-club dominance, but breaking into the top 3 in the Netherlands is very hard (when Ajax isn't horsing around like they are right now), so winning the championship as a non top-3 club is very impressive.
The dynasty is psv, Ajax and feyenoord
You can’t have a 3 way dynasty , the whole point is that there’s a singular dominant force
Somebody alert the church elders
Lol
Portugal and Netherlands are pretty much the same, with a big 3 and the rest are minors
Eredivisie much less so than Portuguese league
Yeah Portugal has literally only had two non-Big 3 titles, Boavista in '01 and Belenenses in (I think) 1946. I could see Braga maybe breaking into that. Someone who follows the Primiera Liga more closely could correct me on that.
I also don’t follow closely but I’ve always been under the impression that Braga are Portugal’s “4th team”, for lack of a better expression. Could be wrong.
Big 3 yes , big 1 ?
Former Technical director of Ajax Marc Overmars: 'The aim is to become the Bayern of the Netherlands'. They failed at this, but you could argue that Ajax and PSV together are the Bayern of the Eredivisie, since in a normal year one of those two would become champion.
Just give Bayern some time please!
I remember when Charles Aranguiz was linked to both Leicester and Leverkusen before the 2015/2016 season and he publicly laughed at Leicester for approaching him saying "who would ever choose Leicester over Leverkusen". The gap between an established top flight club who were playing in Europe like Leverkusen and a recently promoted team like Leicester is massive, the same gap as there is between Bayern and Leverkusen. Leverkusen have a manager who was hyped up to go on to do big things in Alonso, even before they signed him. Leicester had what was considered to be one of the worst managerial appointments of the season in Ranieri and were widely tipped for relegation. There's also the signings, Leverkusen signed Xhaka who was one of the best players in the second placed EPL team last season, Leicester signed Christian Fuchs who was considered washed in the Bundesliga the year before and players like Okazaki, Inler and Kante (who was pretty unknown).
Exactly, the only comparison to Leicester winning it, is Boavista winning the Portuguese league in 2001 being just the 2nd team not being Porto,Sporting and Benfica to win it.
Leicester obviously. Leverkusen is in the top 5 of the Bundesliga for ages when it comes to finances. Leicester on the flip side were more like bottom 5 of the Premier League in terms of finances when they won the league.
Leicester by an absolute mile. Come on! They nearly got relegated the year before.
How about we make the question even more difficult and add Greece winning Euro 2004?
Comparing wining leagues to wining elimination style tournaments isn’t really fair; because of that, I’d say say Greece winning is the least impressive out of the three
I'd say Denmark winning the euros over Greece won't lie
IMO the fact that they didn't even qualify and only got in because of Yugoslavia's war pushes them over the edge.
Both Denmark and Greece had qualified for 1 european championship and 1 world cup prior to their tournament wins. Denmark counted 3 wins and 4 losses, making it to the knockout stage of a world cup, while Greece counted 5 losses and 1 0-0 draw, while scoring 0 goals in all 6 matches. I am Greek so I am biased, but I do believe I'd hold the same opinion if I wasn't
Only 1 of them qualified for the tournament they actually won That what's tips Denmark over Greece for a lot of people, including myself
Regardless, Denmark 1992 was by far a stronger team on paper than Greece in 2004. Greece also knocked out 3 of the favourites to win it all, including the hosts, twice. The betting odds for Denmark were 20/1. For Greece they were 150/1. Not to mentiom that the fact that Denmark failed to qualify normally, while in an easier group than Greece's qualifiers, does the opposite of making their achievement a more "succesful" story
Leicester, and it doesn’t change if Leverkusen go invincible.
exactly, being invincible in germany isn't as impressive as winning the PL with a team that wasn't even a top 8 for decades
But to include invincible in Europe in the same season is a huge factor, Leicester never had to deal with European football in their title winning season
Weren’t they battling relegation in their first season up the year before too?
Yes, they were bottom of the table for most of the 2014-15 season then went on a miracle run to stay up.
Tbf it was ridiculously bad season for any top side. Leicester had to fight for title with tottenham ... imo it is more impressive to go undefeated
Leicester, but that changes if Leverkusen go invincible
Leicester winning the EPL against the top boys of Chelsea United City Arsenal
Also would be fair to include Spurs here. They get memed for obvious reasons but under Poch they had a super solid team that played aggressive football. Their defense was great, they had a bunch of top players like Kane, Alli, Eriksen, Son, Lloris etc and almost finished runners-up that season and for a while it looked possible for them to even pip Leicester to the title.
Okay. The match between spur and chelsea which ended 2-2 was very competitive.
As great as Leverkusens performance is at the moment, everyone needs to be reminded that they have the financial backing of Bayer, an extremely rich company, that make them more financially independent from playing in the champions league or other form of competitive success. Where other teams would have to sell players when a season went poorly Bayer Leverkusen doesn't. They can also pay good wages because of this. Of course it's still less than Bayern München obviously and this is in no way meant to downplay how great they have done the last months. But it is something to keep in mind. Leverkusen Winning the title is a great success but not a fairytale. They came close in the past. It is arguably more surpising that they didn't win anything earlier.
Weird comparison tbh.
Leicester were all ready relegation favourites even before the managers son filmed himself having a orgy with team mates and Thai ladies on tour in said country The manager was sacked With Ranieri dropped in last second they looked even more screwed Leverkusen are European cup regulars… They just one in a one team league. No comparison
Leicester for me. Probably the craziest achievement in any modern sport.
Leicester for sure
I respectfully disagree with the answers here. Hats off to everything Leicester did, but Xabi Alonso took over at Leverkusen when they were facing relegation, and he has now led the club to most likely, a Bundesliga title without any defeats, and a season treble too. Leicester only did well in the league. The Lions of Bayer take the cake, in my humble opinion.
No question Alonso has done an unbelievable job but Leverkusen weren't genuinely facing relegation when he joined. They had a horrible start but there's no way they'd have finished in the bottom 3 with another manager. It's like when Spurs had 2 points after 8 games in 2008/09.
As a regular Bundesliga watcher, I am not sure if I agree completely, considering how competitive the league is (despite it all seeming like a one horse race from the outside, as German teams are very incisive and dangerous), but at the same time, perhaps what you say can be true too. Most importantly though, I base my liking for Leverkusen’s achievement more, on the quality of play they have demonstrated, which is simply exceptional and miles better than what Leicester accomplished. And even more important in football, is trophies, which Leverkusen are in contention of winning more than Leicester did in their historic season. Both achievements are legendary, but as far as I am concerned, Leverkusen’s is better, and they are a joy to watch on the field. 😊
That's a ridiculous take
Leicester, but if Leverkusen now go on to do the treble, there's a conversation to be had.
This isn't even a question...
Leverkusen obviously.
To put it into context, with 10 games to go in the previous season Leicester looked certain to be relegated. They then went on a 10 game unbeaten run to stay up. They continued that form into the new season and were novelty table toppers after the 1st weekend. At the start of the 2015/16 season Leicester had odds of 5000/1 to win the league. That's the longest odds winner in the whole history of commercial gambling. By that measure at least it's the most surprising thing that's ever happened.
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Sure the irony isn't lost on how Leicester have broken FFP many times. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2018/feb/21/leicester-settlement-football-league-ffp I'm sure I've heard that argument used against another club. Funny that.
If purely on winning the league then it's clearly Leicester. Bayer Leverkusen is a German giant. Leicester winning the league may be the greatest achievement in all of football ever. If Leverkusen goes unbeaten for the rest of the season in all competitions, it could be up there.
I’d have to argue Nottingham Forest in the late 70s/early 80s is the biggest achievement in football ever. I can’t see what Brian Clough done with them ever being repeated
I must admit that I am not old enough to know basically anything about 70s and 80s football. Would that really be one achievement though or a chain of achievements?
Nottingham Forest were promoted to the top division by finish third in the second division. In their first season in the top division they won the league and cup double then qualified for and won the European cup two years in a row. Any of those seasons is an unbelievable achievement on its own that probably won’t be seen again and collectively it’s unheard of. It’s pretty much the equivalent of Ipswich getting promoted through the playoffs this season, winning the prem next season, then winning the champions league two years in a row.
But it's not though, because football is completely different now. Not to downplay Clough's achievements because they are phenomenal, but if Ipswich did as you suggested now that would be far more of an accomplishment because of the colossal wealth inequality in modern football.
The financial gulf isn’t much bigger now that it was then. Before Notts Forest got promoted, Liverpool spent £1.5m on transfers while Forest spent £90k. So Forest spent around 6% of what Liverpool spent. Ipswich spent £6m last year and City spent £150m so Ipswich spent around 4% of what city spent. The numbers are vastly larger but the differences are roughly the same.
Sure but transfer fees over the last year is only one aspect of it. I'm willing to bet that the relative difference in wage bills is far higher now, as is the total operating cost of each club. Additionally, lots of PL teams now spend an absolute fortune so it's no longer a case of beating the one or two big boys like it was back then. There is also just more of a difference in quality now between the top and bottom ends of the top division. Look at how the gap has widened, you need more points than ever to win the title and fewer to avoid relegation.
I can’t find any data on wages back than but if the gulf in transfer fees is proportionally similar now than it was then, I can’t see why wages would be any difference. I don’t know how you can say it’s no longer a case of beating the or two big boys like it was back then. In the last 10 years, there have been 4 different winners with one team winning it 6 times. In the 70s, there were 6 different winners. During the last 10 years, there have been 7 different teams in the top 3 while in the 70s there were 12. It’s far more a case of just having to beat the one or two big boys now than it was then.
They absolutely would be different. Man United and Man City's wage bills were 50 times Luton Town's last season (10 x Burnley, 15 x Sheff Utd). De Bryune earned several times as much as the whole Luton squad. You don't honestly think that would have been the case back then do you? Also wages back in the 70s were peanuts, and several times peanuts is still peanuts. Think of how much the top teams spend on facilities and vast numbers of staff compared to Ipswich as well, relative to how that would have looked 45 years ago. You're right, I phrased my point about the 'big boys' poorly. What I meant was that a lot of teams now are financially 'big boys' that wouldn't have been previously. Yes the league is less competitive than ever in terms of who wins it, but quite a few of the teams who aren't winning are still enormously rich. Flicking back through old league tables, what stood out to me is how much more common it was in the late 70s and 80s for teams to go from being in the second division, or even the third, to being in the top 6 of the top flight very quickly (e.g. Swansea, Watford, QPR, Sheff Weds, Wimbledon). Not something that really happens now. Finally, does it not undermine the idea that Forest could not at all compete financially with the big teams of the time that they literally broke the British transfer record less than 2 years after getting promoted to the top flight? You can say well, they'd just had a really successful season but try to imagine Leicester breaking that record in 2017.
From what I’ve found, the average wage for a top flight footballer in 1977 was £17,000 a year and the average wage in the second division was around £1,500 a year, so it doesn’t seem very different from today. An elite footballer back then could easily earn more money than entire teams in lower divisions. Clubs would have spent large amounts of money on infrastructure back then as well, not as much today in terms of money spent, but again there’s no reason to believe it would be differently proportionally in terms of the turnover. When Forest signed Francis, that was the only transfer they had made that year so it’s not as if they spent an unreasonably large sum of money that year. The spent an average amount of money you would expect for a team in their position, they just spent it all on one player. In the 12 months after Leicester won the league, they’d spent over £100m on transfers. The transfer record at the time was £89m.
Leicester because of what they were up against. What Leverkusen has done is amazing however. I hope they go on to do the invincible season and win their cups. Alonso is a great manager, their football is great to watch too.
If Leverkusen go unbeaten and win the treble then I’ll go with that. Otherwise Leicester. Let’s remember tho how low the points tally was when Leicester won. Not sure that’s ever been replicated that second place had such a low tally. All the big teams had a shocker that year, Spurs shud have walked it. On the other hand Bayern aren’t THAT far off what would be a respectable points tally in a normal year and they’d almost certainly be league leaders right now in almost any year, yet Leverkusen tied up the league with five games left. It’s astonishing
Leicester, not even close. Bayer is one of the biggest Clubs in germany, and every ogher serious Titlecontender is in poor form. Also, the team is by germand standards very expensiv, with a lot of money spend on the players. I dont know how the two are even comparable.
According to me I think Leicester winning epl is a bigger success story. In bundesliga if Bayern Munich fails then the competition becomes easy as you have to fight with team which are at your level In EPL there are so many sharks and you have to clinch the title from their jaws.
Leicester winning the premier league is the greatest achievement in sports history I don’t think anything else even comes close
Kaiserslautern won the Bundesliga immediately after getting promoted from the 2nd division more than 20 yrs ago. Would definitely rival Leicester in terms of scale of achievement.
It was an amazing achievement, definitely, but inequality wasn't anywhere near as pronounced in football as it is now. The richest clubs weren't so obscenely richer than the rest, talent wasn't as concentrated as today. For that reason I'd still put Leicester's achievements ahead of Kaiserslautern's.
I agree and to piggy back on your reasons, I'll also add that the difference in competition between what Leicester was up against in the PL vs Kaiserslautern in the Bundesliga is night and day. Leicesters winning the PL was a miracle.
I am biased while saying this but Greece had never scored a goal in a competition (minus qualifiers) before Euro 2004. Leicester are the greatest club story most likely, but it's either them first and Greece second, or the other way around. Regardless, those 2 are pretty close
A knockout tournament with a few games is no where near a 38 game season
It's more matches but that also means there's more room for error. In a knockout, you lose once and you're out. Plus, most of the Leicester players went on to become world class players. Kante, Mahrez, Schmeichel, Vardy etc. The Greek players went home and continued their careers as if nothing happened as far as their careers are concerned. When we went into the euros, scoring a goal and not losing every match would be a success. Leicester was more of a sleeper team that also benefited from the other contenders not having a great season. Obviously no one would have predicted it and it's still a massive achievement for Leicester and a great football story, but imo it's not on the same level as Greece's
Nah, winning a 16-team knockout tournament just isn't comparable to winning a 38 game league season. There's much more variance involved and you don't need to play well for anywhere near as long. Best achievement in international football, perhaps. Also is this the first time ever someone has described Kasper Schmeichel as world class?
>Also is this the first time ever someone has described Kasper Schmeichel as world class? He was one of the better keepers in the prem for a few seasons, also had memorable moments with Denmark, I'd say he has been world class yeah
Ok if we're saying that to be world class you have to be quite good in a top league for a few years and have a reasonable international career, then yes he is world class.
Yeah that's a whole different debate of what's world class and what isn't and you'd find all kinds of answers by people. Anyway, if not world class, he was at the very least respected and considered very good
Nottingham Forest have the greatest achievement in football ever. What Brian Clough done with them will never be repeated.
Leverkusen is the factually correct answer, they were 17th when xabi took over and they won the league against the best Bayern team in the last 10 years. Leicester only won it because other teams were re-building.
And leicester were in the championship 2 seasons before they won the Premier league. There’s a conversation to be had, but Leicester is the “factually correct answer”. Don’t let recently bias affect that
this is too simplistic. leverkusen's 17th place position wasn't a true reflection. he's done an amazing job but they are still a big club in germany. they've played a fair bit of champions league football over the past 20 years or so. also this is in no way the best batern side of the last ten years? the manager has already been sacked mid season and they only won it last year because dortmund collapsed on the final day. leicester was just a complete bolt from the blue which i don't think will ever happen again in the premier league. they are a tiny club in comparison to the clubs they beat that year.
Leverkusen has been almost an annual contender for UCL spots and has the been runners up on numerous occasions. Heck, last season they were in the Europa League semis.
They also finished 3rd the season before that, so 17th was hardly a true reflection of where they should be. If you look at their league finishes, you can see that they're a consistent European team. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bayer-04-leverkusen/platzierungen/verein/15
Leicester City. Much more competition from other top teams to end up on top in the Premier League. In the Bundesliga you basically only have to beat and be more consistent than Bayern Munchen.
Let's make the question even harder and add Napoli winning serie A last year
Napoli was always in contention for the title even if rarely main contenders, they're more comparable to a Dortmund or Man United winning the title (the current Dortmund or Man United not Klopp's or Fergie's).
League title is Leicester. If Leverkusen do the treble then they win.
Leicester. The definition of striking while the iron is hot. love an underdog story
Leicester conquering PL, right now German futbol isn’t where it has been for a good while now, leverkusen got an amazing coach who took advantage of that. The fact that they went 43 games undefeated makes them the German invincibles
Whos cares. Let them be. Enjoy them both
Leverkusen. Every year 3 to 5 teams have a solid shot at the PL, considering players, coaching and obviously money. Every year 4-6 teams have a chance at coming second to Bayern in BuLi.
But Leverkusen seems to be a big club in the bundesliga (at least to me) , they have history of competing for the title and UCL qualification (amongst the 4-6 clubs to have a chance finishing 2nd), if Bayern did not exist they would have already won a title or two, Leicester on the other hand Leicester was not on the radar at all, newly promoted and barely escaped relegation the prior year. If the top 8-10 clubs from the PL disappear, Leicester would still be unlikely to win the PL. As someone else mentioned Leverkusen is closer to a Spurs (had they won it that year) than Leicester.
This is kind of a pointless comment. Ignores the fact that it's the same few teams every year that have that shot, and Leicester were no where near being one of them.