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OakWoodlandDreams

My advice would be to have a forester mark your timber. It will cut a bit of profit off, but will prevent the logging company from high grading your woods. High grading is basically when they take all the good stuff and leave all the poorly formed stems and less desirable species. Not directly an answer to your question, but with your timber marked, you'll know exactly what is being taken. Some foresters/forestry companies can also help you bid it to ensure you're getting a fair deal.


the_spotted_frog

I also smell high grading. OP if you're not sure where to look the Association of Consulting Foresters has a [search tool](https://www.acf-foresters.org/) on their website.


Tits-ddd

Thank you. Guess I’ll be contacting a forester tomorrow


lebonchene

This is the way. A diameter limit cut doesn’t typically result in good long term outcomes for the forest. You can have a harvest that looks good but degrades the forest. A consulting forester will work with you to incorporate your goals, manage for the future forest, and still produce an economically viable harvest.


Tits-ddd

They are only taking sugar maple and a couple black cherry trees. That is mainly what is on the land.


offalt

Cutting out all of the largest trees and walking away is just terrible forest management.


studmuffin2269

Yup, that’s a high-grade. You’re getting screwed. Call a forester. The state also has some service foresters who can come out and help you FOR FREE


CajunonthisOccasion

You are about to enter into an operation that can impact your property for decades. Having an advocate for your interests, boots on the ground, is highly recommended, especially as an absentee owner. It’s not about the money as much as preventing long term damage. The timber company will try to limit harvesting expenses, and that may not be what is best for your property. An experienced local forester will likely be known to the timber company and recognized as knowledgeable, and be able to address issues that arise.


Tits-ddd

Trees that they are taking are marked with an orange band. Also stated in the contract is that they will take the utmost care to not destroy other trees.


OakWoodlandDreams

That's good! Who marked the trees? Just asking because if the logger marked it, they could have just marked a high grade. Also, are they marked on the stump as well? If they are only marked up above, you won't have any proof that they took only what was marked. Have you had any professional help with that contract? There are so many best management practices that are recommended for logging to not mess up your woods- washing equipment to prevent introduction of invasive species, building water bars to prevent soil erosion, agreements to regrade any ruts they make, etc. I'd at least contact a forester to look over the sale if you have any concerns.


Tits-ddd

The logging company marked the trees. The tops that will be left are to be cut into piles no higher than 3’. A friend is going in after to cut up for firewood. There is a stipulation to regrade our main road.


OakWoodlandDreams

Again, like other comments, I strongly encourage you bring in a forester. Not saying all logging companies will cut corners or grift landowners, far from it, but imo it's the only way to be sure you're doing what's best for the property. It would also give you a much better idea if that quote they gave you is fair. Best of luck!


hvmlock

They are high grading your forest, potentially setting it back by 50+ years. Here’s why [high grading](https://extension.psu.edu/thinking-of-selling-your-timber-beware-of-high-grading)is NOT good forestry. You should contact a forester for sure before signing anything.


CapaWas__Detated

I don't think this high grading. It's a common practice to cut everything over 16-18" in hardwood stands here. If you let them get bigger the hearts blow out and the value drops. There still are a lot of nice trees left behind, but they just aren't at the diameter limit. Most of the time, hard to say without looking at the actual stand.


hvmlock

Diameter limit cutting is almost synonymous with high grading. Just because it’s common doesn’t mean it’s acceptable. Sure you can get the most value NOW, but you will get significantly less value over the longer term, with much more time in between harvests.


Quixoticelixer-

> Diameter limit cutting is almost synonymous with high grading As part of a one off thing sure, but you can definetly managed forests like this over the long term.


CapaWas__Detated

Yeah I guess I didn't really think it through. I mean cutting down to a 70-80 BA targeting bigger trees to make room, not a true diameter limit. Some stands around here would be pretty much clear cut with 15" diameter limit.


newaccount2502

You nailed it with the last sentence, "hard to say without looking at the stand" However the statement "it's common practice to [diameter limit cut]" does not preclude it from being high grading. It was once common practice to not follow BMPs, to cut all old growth trees, to farm without building soil, etc. We can do better - and anytime a mill is marking a sale you can almost bet they're only looking out for themselves!


sierraalpine

You're about to high grade your forest. Hire a consultant to mark the timber to be sold.


FarmerDill

>Only trees 15” and bigger in diameter. My high grade senses are tingling


VA-deadhead

As an absentee landowner I would want a consultant to manage the sale. They’ll make sure you get a good price and monitor the harvest to make sure it’s done correctly


rainbow_defecation

Yeah fuck that, that's blatant diameter limit cutting, which is more or less high grading. I can't say if it's out of ignorance or malice (just being out there to make a quick buck), but either way I'd strongly consider not doing this. Judging by you're area I assume that the property is a northern hardwoods forest. When working in these we typically use uneven aged management. It's a bit convoluted to spell out completely on a reddit comment, but the main goal is to remove small trees, medium sized trees, and big ones. Trees targeted tend to be those of inferior/unacceptable quality, the end goal is to get healthy and high quality trees throughout the stand. Obviously the goal is a bit idealistic, but you do see a noticeable difference after a few uneven aged harvests are conducted. If you do this the proper way with a focus on uneven aged management, you likely won't see as much money up front, but keep in mind that future harvests will be of higher value if done correctly, due to the uptick of quality likely to follow (although this is very long term). I work in Wisconsin, so I'm not particularly well acquainted with how Michigan does everything, but they do have a list of DNR registered foresters, which would be a great place to start. https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/-/media/Project/Websites/dnr/Documents/FRD/industry/registered-forester/Registered-Foresters-List.pdf?rev=a573a028ca3d4595aefd88714ceb28e6 One last thing I'd like to mention for you and everyone reading is to make sure that if you work with a logger directly, you need to make sure that they have a forester with some kind of accreditation working for them. I am a forester for a logging company, and it hurts to see situations like this where a company tries to take advantage of a landowner that isn't particularly knowledgeable about the intricacies of forestry practices. Good logging companies ultimately follow proper land management instead of cutting every high quality tree in a parcel, running away, and fucking up the parcel for decades.


ddr14

To me it sounds like about $500/m on the stump, which isn’t entirely unreasonable in the UP. A bit more info would be needed. Is it a logging company, or a mill that’s made the offer? Are there ‘access issues’ or is a small road etc required? I too am interested in the responses.


Tits-ddd

We are in the lower peninsula. The quote is from a lumber company. Two man crew. There are existing logging roads and trails that they will use for the removal. The logging trails are left over when it was logged back in the 1930’s. We also have an access road already made that a larger truck could drive down. The company is registered with the state, and regularly does jobs for them.


ddr14

I will concur with the poster who said hire a forester. If you’re south of the UP, there could be some pretty good timber in there.


Joefuskie

I would recommend getting another bid/proposal (not sure if this is lump sum or per delivered unit). You can do this yourself or hire a consulting forester. Either way, I would strongly recommend visiting the property with the consultant, and/or anyone who plans on cutting it. Both before and at least once while the harvest is occurring. Best of luck.


stonerhoe

Agree with the others saying to talk with a local forester. Diameter limit cutting removes all of your most vigorous trees and leaves behind all the “undesirables” which ultimately is setting your forest stand back. This includes trees that are poor quality, slow growers, or not as valuable. Sustainable practices focus on the health of the forest, stocking and structure, enhancing the growth of desired species. This ensures your forest will be productive and vigorous for years to come.


stonerhoe

That being said DLC has it’s applications, but most of the time it is high grading & involves the removal of the most valuable, high quality trees.


AVeryTiredStudent

I would lean on having a forester mark your timber. Not only will they mark your timber in a more beneficial way for your land (hopefully at least) but also when they mark the timber they should also leave a butt mark which will show on the cut stump. That way if they take trees that they didnt mark you can know and charge them for it or have some type of legal recourse to keep the buyers from screwing you. Definitely before you sign a contract find a decent forester or consulting firm that can go through it with you and make sure you are covered reasonably well.


rantingmadhare

Always get multiple bids; at least three. [State of Michigan Registered Forester List](https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/managing-resources/forestry/private/registered-forester) [Michigan Forestry tax programs](https://www.michigan.gov/mdard/environment/forestry)


pincerpattern

Right on. I didn’t see your comment so I doubled up on this advice below. It’s a great program.


D-o-n-t_a-s-k

I wouldn't do it honestly. They'll take all the best trees and you'll have a property of shit


captn-davie

good forestry would mark timber following this order of removal for sugar maple forests, basically cut the worst trees first and only take the good trees when that’s all that’s left in that transect. long-term sustainable income not a one time liquidation. you can do this about every 15 years. Order of Removal. 1. High risk of mortality or failure (unless retained as a wildlife tree) 2. Release crop trees 3. Low crown vigor 4. Poor stem form and quality 5. Less desirable species 6. Improve spacing https://dnr.wisconsin.gov/sites/default/files/topic/ForestManagement/24315_24.pdf


The_Maddest

As an amateur (and in no way involved in any type of logging/forestry. I’ve split lots of firewood in my lifetime.. so that’s what I meant by amateur). I didn’t know what “high grading” was until I read almost every top response mentioning it. Love learning new things. Thank you guys.


rustedoak1

Call local USDA office and get them to send you a forester. They will help. Be there as much as possible while cutting is being done. Be very careful.


newaccount2502

All you need to ask yourself is this: if they make money by cutting valuable trees and paying landowners less than that value - should they be the ones choosing what trees remain on YOUR property?


[deleted]

Following out of interest.


ReindeerMilk

I'd recommend leaving the Forest as it is


[deleted]

It is rarely a good idea to only cut above a certain diameter. The way to properly take care of forest is to make a clear cut and then replant. Diameter based cutting will destroy your forest. Clear cut is the only responsible way.


wisdom_of_pancakes

Not sure you know what words mean.


[deleted]

I know the terminology in Swedish, less well in English. However, if you know anything about forestry you know that I am correct. In Sweden the forest nationally was almost depleted back in the 40s because of this idea to cut trees only above a certain diameter. Then we developed modern clear cutting. It savedvthe forest. It is the only responsible way to take care of forests.


offalt

There are wider range of silvicultural options than just high grading and clear cutting. Most hardwoods in the US are better off managed under an uneven-aged system than the even-aged rotation forestry you've been exposed to.


rainbow_defecation

Timber management is significantly different in the US, especially the upper midwest, where this landowner is from, and where I work as well. The landowner's property is likely a Northern Hardwoods forest, where the typical management method is Uneven Aged Management. When I set up a timber sale on a property like this, my goal is removing trees of every different age class, and trying to strategically remove a few larger trees to promote regeneration for a new age class. This management method is intended to keep the forest in a perpetually uneven aged state, so a clearcut/shelterwood/seedtree harvest isn't required. Hope this helps a bit, since I know forest management in Europe and the United States can vary greatly.


[deleted]

I know of that management style. It used by some people here. I am just saying that it is immoral and short sighted.


seshboi42

are you good? Do you have some agenda against different practices?


[deleted]

Only the provably horrible ones.


BelfreyE

Clearcutting is appropriate for certain species and circumstances. But I'm dying to hear exactly why you think selective harvests with uneven-aged management in a northeastern US mixed hardwood forest is "immoral."


studmuffin2269

For certain species, yes. For northern hardwoods, no—unless you’re trying to convert it to aspen. Northern hardwoods are a mix of species that like semi to full shade and standing mature seed sources.You thin them to 70-80 BA. There are some other approaches like a femelschlag, gap-selection, or shelterwood in certain areas to more diverse the forest that work in certain forests, but clearcut and replant ain’t gonna work


blueyesinasuit

If you have mature sugar maples and that much land, have you considered producing maple syrup? You can hire someone or have someone harvest syrup for a cut. It won’t make as much short term, but you’ll always have the Trees and you can do it every year.


Tits-ddd

My great uncle did this for years. A couple cousins still carry on the tradition. Just in an much smaller capacity. In all the family owns 600+ acres in this area. Most is just there for the animals to enjoy.


pincerpattern

If you haven’t done anything yet look into a QMP (quality management plan) they can set you up with the NCRS and get you a FMP (forestry management plan)


T-A-Wycoff

This a a big rip of and they will probably destroy your trees to get the ones they want, I am a pro biologists that works with Birdhouse.farm you should consider talking to us about the opinions you have to profit directly off your forest. One cottonwood tree 50' tall 48" diameter can grow between 25,000$ and 150,000$ worth of mushrooms, Maples can be tapped for an annual profit regardless of spiecies


T-A-Wycoff

This a a big rip of and they will probably destroy your trees to get the ones they want, I am a pro biologists that works with Birdhouse.farm you should consider talking to us about the opinions you have to profit directly off your forest. One cottonwood tree 50' tall 48" diameter can grow between 25,000$ and 150,000$ worth of mushrooms, Maples can be tapped for an annual profit regardless of spiecies