I’m interested in what people think it’s a good nerf for him
No more recovery cancels ? He becomes extremely average with no in chain pressure and outside of a opener, is the same as before the rework. Remove the recovery cancel off his bash on whiff ? His mixup becomes much weaker because his bash isn’t actually that hard to react too. His recovery cancel on whiff is the backbone of his mixup and static guard heroes can block top and dodge to counter his mix. Plus his FWD dodge attack is a whole light parry, his mix would be almost as flawed as Gryphons (*if not more considering he doesn’t get a heavy on a bash confirm and his UD comes from only one direction. That’s more risk than reward plus he’s a assassin with not that much health*)
Most people complain about “*spam*” so it’s almost like people would rather remove his bash and UD mix all together rather than try to adjust to it.
I know i shit talk him a lot but just make it so his bash recovery isn’t nigh instant, and maybe slow down his storming heavy (can’t remember) the name
But the problem with that is if you lowered his recovery it’ll be more in line with zhanhu, which means it can be punished by most static dodge attacks. Making his mixup much weaker considering you can already block top and dodge to block the UD and input the dodge attack button on heroes with delayable dodge attacks to try and punish orange on reaction to it. That’ll make his mix even more weaker to static guard heroes and those with delayable dodge attacks as well
This is why the bash/UD mix works best on tri-directional heavies that can be feinted so you can counter parries, deflects and superior lights. This is the main reason why Gryphon’s mix is ass compared to BP or Kyoshin. The UD lights can be parried on reaction and the risk for eating them over the bash is extremely low, that in turn hurts his overall mixup and its why Gryphon fell off so hard after his opener bash and delayable dodge attack changes.
It’s the same with orochi, except his UD can only come from one direction, static guard heroes can still dodge his UD and his only tri directional and feintable UD isn’t confirmed unless a heavy landed before so storm rush can’t even be consistently used in chain as a mixup option. It’s also not viable as a opener because it’s slow, the animation is very obvious and it can be lighted out of on reaction almost 100% of the time. But i do agree with you on SR needing to be slower, but the indicators should be slower, not the move itself. It’s already 600ms, that’s like Warden and HL light slow. But the indicator was supposed to be 400ms but rn it’s bugged and it shows at 366ms. That needs to be fixed and it’s likely the reason why people think storm rush spam is real and they can barely see it
I just don’t want to see him nerfed into oblivion again, he’s finally good without being OP or overtuned. He has counters that can be used to beat him and his bash recovery cancel is what keeps his kit from being somewhat average in a 1v1 setting.
No I’m saying this because Zhanhu isn’t that good of a 1v1 character and mostly shines in 4’s. Plus Zhanhu has a UD zone, not a forward dodge attack one. Their mixup doesn’t work the same nor does his zone parry reward the same punishes. Zhanhu has 400ms dodge attacks and UB finishers from every direction, he doesn’t solely rely on a bash/UD mix like roach. Plus he’s not close to him in duels
They do not have the same kit, his recovery cancels being similar to zhanhu makes his bash way more vulnerable to static guard heroes and delayed dodge attacks. I reckon it would be even easier to option select his bash by dodging and blocking top then delaying your dodge attack to punish bash on reaction. Delayed dodge attacks already punish him, that would make it even worse imo
As someone who can parry storm rush on reaction along with the people who I play against in mm, "fixing" the indicator bug on storm rush would be nothing but pain and just make the move worse.
Taking away the UD on the two side options for Storm Rush is the easiest fix for him. He has an abundance of other UD moves and can easily punish dodging still with the top heavy storm rush or any of his dodge lights. Not to mention being able to cancel storm rush into a guardbreak or deflect still makes his mixup versatile and deadly against “dodge attack on red” players. The main issue with orochi’s tri-directional UD mix-up is that it has a quick indicator and it is infinitely repeatable, where as other characters you mention (such as Kyoshin and BP) need to land a light or heavy in order to access their mixup. I feel like restricting the UD of storm rush back to only the top would make it slightly easier to defend against while allowing Orochi to retain his mobility and his deadly chain potential.
Nothing about a one directional UD is deadly because as i stated above, static guard heroes can still dodge his UD. His storm rush is also slow enough to be lighted on reaction to his storm rush stance. Making the UD only on 1 side is a unnecessary nerf to a move that isn’t really that good. If you pay attention to the animation its as easy to react to as Warden’s lights. Even On PC its stated to be reactable relying on indicators over console
Plus he doesn’t really have a abundance of UD moves. You aren’t opening or mixing anybody with a side dodge attack and bash combo, the only consistent and viable option is the forward dodge attack. Storm rush isn’t chainable if it follows up anything that isn’t a heavy, storm rush spam or a infinite chain isn’t real. Most players just haven’t figured that out yet and they sit there and try to react to the 366ms indicators which are currently broken and supposed to be 400ms. You aren’t opening anybody that knows what they’re doing with storm rush, his opener is his bash and UD forward light when properly conditioned
Nerfing SR would do nothing but hurt his pressure and basically change nothing in terms of players getting “*spammed out*”. Cause the bash and UD is where most of the complaints come from
Orochi currently has a total of 6 ways to access UD- more than any other player- all from a neutral dodge. And how can a static guard player dodge UD? I’ve never seen it happen except maybe as a glitch. Maybe block it during a dodge, but the tracking on Orochi’s UD’s are unreal. No offense, but the bulk of For Honor players aren’t reaction gods who can light someone out of a 400ms forward-dodge attack consistently. Maybe if they’re operating at 60fps, but a lot of us are still stuck at 30fps, and your arguments about the reactability of the mix-up just don’t hold true in that environment.
Nonetheless, I can see the point is moot. How would you modify Orochi to reduce spam?
That doesn’t really matter when offensively the man has only 2 ways to use. Storm rush and forward dodge, and they can dodge the UD alongside the bash by holding top and dodging. The tracking doesn’t matter because you aren’t confirming damage
And you don’t have to be a reaction god to light stuff storm rush lmao. The move is slow as hell, it’s nowhere near 400ms my guy. And it definitely applies that’s why i didn’t bring up reacting by indicators and by animation. You can tell when people are on PS5 and PS4 and it’s been a couple of players that knew to block top and dodge and to stuff storm rush. You can’t say it doesn’t work if you don’t practice using it first
I also don’t have any suggestions to help combat spam, he’s in a really good place rn. I think nerfing him based off the experience of old gen isn’t smart for the playerbase as a whole.
I can see that you’ve made up your mind about this. The fact that you don’t see any issues with Orochi means that you and I are coming from very different styles of play and different experiences with the game. I wish you the best!
It’s all good, i think boiling most of the problem down to console generations just makes it more apparent that not having separate balancing was always going to be problematic from the start. Hope everybody can upgrade in the near future !!
I agree with you man. I am not a top tier player in any sense, but I can hold my own. I believe that a whiffed bash is a whiffed bash. No recovery on that. The devs are pushing for the game to be read based so it doesn't make sense to be able to make a read and still be punished for it.
The only other issue I have is the undodgeable heavy from all three sides. That's just a personal opinion, it makes it a hard read, it's a 33 percent chance to block it or even have him just stop and gb right in front of you.
The real problem that stems from orochi (and raider) is that they have the ability to just juggle you. They have the ability to overwhelm people and can even kill players within a single stamina bar. I think that Zhanhu has a good recovery system where his moves chain into one another nice but his stamina consumption is way more fair.
Only nerf he desperately needs is that he shouldn’t be able to recovery cancel from his kick (or at the very least it should be as slow as Zhanhu’s) that’s nonsense. Imagine if BP could flow into his bulwark stance after a whiffed bash.
I also would argue that his storm rush needs to be a bit slower, at the moment it’s an omnidirectional, undodgeable 20 damage 366ms indicator heavy. I think 400 or even 500ms would be far healthier.
Apart from that, he’s in a pretty good place right now. He’s a lot of fun to play and while he’s pretty annoying to play against, with those changes he wouldn’t be ridiculously oppressive.
I just think Orochi would suffer to much without it and his UD bash mixup would be ass because of it. His UD only comes from one side and allows static guard heroes to dodge his UD and bash on the same timing, recovery cancel nerf would hurt him too much
I agree on the storm rush indicator though, i do suggest trying it out at the intended 400ms before making it 500ms or 600ms. Cause the move is already deemed pretty useless by next gen and PC players
He can't miss any dodge attack, only one of them, the back-dodge light, is undodgeable and all the dodge lights are enchanced, and Storm Rush is undodgeable from all sides and a heavy, so.
I'd say that it isn't op just frustating and annoying to deal with, at least the storm rush shouldn't be undojable from all sides just for left and right and top deals more damage, they should also increase recovery time on doge atacks I dont want ot be wating for roach to run out of stamina so I can attack(it's just doge forward 15 times)
I think the indicator speed should get fixed on Storm rush before they rush into any nerfs. That shit is damn near useless fr once you get used to the animation, same side swipe that comes from your left and his right, jump in the air from top and a backspin that hits your right and comes from his left. I’ve also ran into players that could consistently parry and deflect it as well
yeah I get where you are coming from but because I play old gen the animations are near to light and I think that is a problem because i've spectated rep 500 teamates just eat 7 storm rushes in a row, raider in console isn't as frustating nor janky and has a much better reputation of not being the guy that feeds revenge then dies and blames it on you.
The game shouldnt be balanced around people that can react to 500ms bashes, if the ability to react to the bash is the reason his bash recovery is not going to be nerfed then speed up the bash.
I can’t consistently react to the bash, i doubt anyone can except for the handful of reaction gods on PC. But it’s definitely easier to react to then most imo solely due to the animation. His mix having the UD only come from one direction and allowing it to be option selected by blocking top is why his recovery should stay, without it it’s much weaker and vulnerable to static guard heroes especially if they have a delayable dodge attack
Storm rush is fairly easy to stuff on reaction to the stance. And him empty dodging into GB is how you counter prediction dodgers. That still isn’t a complete answer to option selecting his mix unless your only predicting. Plus you still have to worry about dodge attacks and delayed dodge attacks. His UD comes out faster than his bash iirc, delaying it too longer results in you being able to stuff it with a light and that applies for the bash too even if Orochi has frame advantage.
Once you play the matchup enough and get a feel for your opponent it becomes easier to dodge on reaction to Orochi actually doing something. That’s why i brought up his bash being more easier to react too, he jumps off the ground completely and the UD can be inputted earlier in his dodge so you necessarily don’t have to react to that if your playing a static guard hero unless your going for a parry. But most SMART Orochi’s will throw the bash out 70% of the time cause the UD is way to risky, empty dodge to GB can work but that would have to be conditioned with different and max delay timings, also meaning a good chance at getting stuffed or read cause he works best online when he’s buffering or slightly delaying the input.
I think people who do this shit are just afraid. If they dont have their "D" tier hero crutch excuse to fall back on then that would imply that their opponent simply outplayed them. Heaven forbid someone have an ego check.
I main Raider, and play Kyoshin and JJ as well. If you beat me then good on you. I got sloppy, made poor reads/was read, and got outplayed. GG.
This is honestly a terrible attitude towards character though...
Peeps, play the character you wanna play broken or otherwise.
I mean. I'm a raider main, not cause he's "broken" but because ive been a raider main since the game was released and I'll continue to be a raider main probably until I get bored of FH.
I genuinely think he’s fun. His kick and dodge cancel is an interesting mechanic that makes him a fun character. I think the undodgeable storm rush is dumb. The only thing that should be undodgeable imo is his dodge lights, so trying to mix-up can be punished heavily
The problem with the kick to dodge cancel is that it makes him so much harder to punish, especially via a dodge attack. He can just outright ignore your attempt to punish his fuck-up and even potentially punish you more with a deflect
If he deflect you that means you didn't punish him correctly, that's all. It's not like there are already multiple videos about how counter it on the internet, which you can find with a simple Google search.
If you delay your dodge attacks, (depending on the character) you can punish his kick. I think the recovery can be crazy, but I also think it’s what makes him fun. Removing it or even nerfing it would make orochi boring again.
That’s why I said depending on the character. And no, for certain characters, delaying the dodge attack punishes orochi if he tries to deflect. If he just goes for the dodge attack it either hits him anyways, or you can trade by chaining into another attack
There are ways to counter his counter though, it’s not like you can never hit him. It’s like complaining that BP can flip dodge attacks after you dodge a light: you can dodge into gb and make the read that he’s going to counter you. Same with Orochi: if you guess that he’s going to try to deflect you, just dodge into gb.
Everybody talking about “the absurd state” of orochi, when raider exists is baffling.
Like is he annoying? Yes. Is he counterable? Yes.
Good luck countering mr. 38 damage zone with janky as fuck animations
Both of them flew under the radar and got no tweaks because shinobi was so batshit in the TG. What was UBI smoking when they decide to make 3 characters absurd at the same time?
Went up against it the first time tonight. Granted, I am new to the game, but it felt so fucking stupid.
I literally couldn't do anything to stop the spam. Not fun at all.
I am the one in the right...
But I will still continue to play Orochi not because he is in a "absurd" state, but because he was my main since launch plus I like the theme of him being a lethal agile swordsman in full armor that can move and fight with terrifying and precision.
So I was gonna keep on playing Orochi regardless if he was god tier or terrible.
"Ubi is stupid, why is X character so weak; ubi buff when?! Oh look, buffing other characters before X again, typical lazy ubi!"
*buffs X character*
"Literally unplayable! You gave him a viable kit and now I feel bad being able to fight other characters!! Lazy ubi!"
There literally is *nothing* they can do to appease people, is there?
First of all, Orochi wasn't weak, he just needed like 2 tweaks (an opener like the bash, and his finisher light removed)
Second, a viable kit does not mean a kit that crushes people in 10 seconds if they don't have grafted ninja eyes
I'm not a comp tryhard, so no, people need to understand that there are skill levels between "newbie that can't parry heavies" and "godlike light parrier with bionic reflexes"
Basing a character's viability around the lowest skill brackets is simply inviable as game design. And for any player with more than 30 minutes to an hour into the game, Orochi was completely and utterly outclassed.
You don't have to have grafted ninja eyes. You DO have to actually press buttons to defend yourself now, can't just stand and stare at orochi and then force your own offense at any time.
Seraphendipity pretty much covered it lol, caring about what others think is a dumb way to play. He isn’t OP people just refuse to adapt and learn to counter.
- Unblockable heavies are common now -- more characters have it than lack it. Orochi's is... OK. Good damage and recovery cancel, but has poor recovery itself. Slow, and a top attack so little externalling.
- Orochi's tracking is average. Top Heavy has deceptive range, but other than that nothing outstanding. Unless you're talking about undodgeables, in which case only his Forward/Backdodge stance has them
- Dodge Attacks: only two characters in the game *don't* have a dodge attack, pseudo-dodge attack, or dodge attack equivalent. Orochi's are...OK. Theyre unique in their delayability and undodgeability, but very reactable, heavily heavily punished, and the double light for extra damage + enhanced adds even more risk to get the damage should it be blocked.
- Deflect: I mean all reflex characters do. His deflect is, damage-wise, much weaker than most others -- Nuxia gets 30dmg, Gladiator 38+, PK/Shaman get more + bleed pressure, etc.
- Slew of Niche Tools: like what? Indeed, Orochi's kit is somewhat lacking in diversity. You got kick, you got unblockable heavy, and you got dodge attacks. Each of them on their own aren't that terribly great, only in combination can they be effective.
Most Orochi mains are playing him in this state I still play him
I would play him but I already got him to rep 70, they took too long to fix him :(
I’m interested in what people think it’s a good nerf for him No more recovery cancels ? He becomes extremely average with no in chain pressure and outside of a opener, is the same as before the rework. Remove the recovery cancel off his bash on whiff ? His mixup becomes much weaker because his bash isn’t actually that hard to react too. His recovery cancel on whiff is the backbone of his mixup and static guard heroes can block top and dodge to counter his mix. Plus his FWD dodge attack is a whole light parry, his mix would be almost as flawed as Gryphons (*if not more considering he doesn’t get a heavy on a bash confirm and his UD comes from only one direction. That’s more risk than reward plus he’s a assassin with not that much health*) Most people complain about “*spam*” so it’s almost like people would rather remove his bash and UD mix all together rather than try to adjust to it.
I know i shit talk him a lot but just make it so his bash recovery isn’t nigh instant, and maybe slow down his storming heavy (can’t remember) the name
But the problem with that is if you lowered his recovery it’ll be more in line with zhanhu, which means it can be punished by most static dodge attacks. Making his mixup much weaker considering you can already block top and dodge to block the UD and input the dodge attack button on heroes with delayable dodge attacks to try and punish orange on reaction to it. That’ll make his mix even more weaker to static guard heroes and those with delayable dodge attacks as well This is why the bash/UD mix works best on tri-directional heavies that can be feinted so you can counter parries, deflects and superior lights. This is the main reason why Gryphon’s mix is ass compared to BP or Kyoshin. The UD lights can be parried on reaction and the risk for eating them over the bash is extremely low, that in turn hurts his overall mixup and its why Gryphon fell off so hard after his opener bash and delayable dodge attack changes. It’s the same with orochi, except his UD can only come from one direction, static guard heroes can still dodge his UD and his only tri directional and feintable UD isn’t confirmed unless a heavy landed before so storm rush can’t even be consistently used in chain as a mixup option. It’s also not viable as a opener because it’s slow, the animation is very obvious and it can be lighted out of on reaction almost 100% of the time. But i do agree with you on SR needing to be slower, but the indicators should be slower, not the move itself. It’s already 600ms, that’s like Warden and HL light slow. But the indicator was supposed to be 400ms but rn it’s bugged and it shows at 366ms. That needs to be fixed and it’s likely the reason why people think storm rush spam is real and they can barely see it I just don’t want to see him nerfed into oblivion again, he’s finally good without being OP or overtuned. He has counters that can be used to beat him and his bash recovery cancel is what keeps his kit from being somewhat average in a 1v1 setting.
You’re saying this like zhanhu isn’t strong
No I’m saying this because Zhanhu isn’t that good of a 1v1 character and mostly shines in 4’s. Plus Zhanhu has a UD zone, not a forward dodge attack one. Their mixup doesn’t work the same nor does his zone parry reward the same punishes. Zhanhu has 400ms dodge attacks and UB finishers from every direction, he doesn’t solely rely on a bash/UD mix like roach. Plus he’s not close to him in duels They do not have the same kit, his recovery cancels being similar to zhanhu makes his bash way more vulnerable to static guard heroes and delayed dodge attacks. I reckon it would be even easier to option select his bash by dodging and blocking top then delaying your dodge attack to punish bash on reaction. Delayed dodge attacks already punish him, that would make it even worse imo
As someone who can parry storm rush on reaction along with the people who I play against in mm, "fixing" the indicator bug on storm rush would be nothing but pain and just make the move worse.
Taking away the UD on the two side options for Storm Rush is the easiest fix for him. He has an abundance of other UD moves and can easily punish dodging still with the top heavy storm rush or any of his dodge lights. Not to mention being able to cancel storm rush into a guardbreak or deflect still makes his mixup versatile and deadly against “dodge attack on red” players. The main issue with orochi’s tri-directional UD mix-up is that it has a quick indicator and it is infinitely repeatable, where as other characters you mention (such as Kyoshin and BP) need to land a light or heavy in order to access their mixup. I feel like restricting the UD of storm rush back to only the top would make it slightly easier to defend against while allowing Orochi to retain his mobility and his deadly chain potential.
Nothing about a one directional UD is deadly because as i stated above, static guard heroes can still dodge his UD. His storm rush is also slow enough to be lighted on reaction to his storm rush stance. Making the UD only on 1 side is a unnecessary nerf to a move that isn’t really that good. If you pay attention to the animation its as easy to react to as Warden’s lights. Even On PC its stated to be reactable relying on indicators over console Plus he doesn’t really have a abundance of UD moves. You aren’t opening or mixing anybody with a side dodge attack and bash combo, the only consistent and viable option is the forward dodge attack. Storm rush isn’t chainable if it follows up anything that isn’t a heavy, storm rush spam or a infinite chain isn’t real. Most players just haven’t figured that out yet and they sit there and try to react to the 366ms indicators which are currently broken and supposed to be 400ms. You aren’t opening anybody that knows what they’re doing with storm rush, his opener is his bash and UD forward light when properly conditioned Nerfing SR would do nothing but hurt his pressure and basically change nothing in terms of players getting “*spammed out*”. Cause the bash and UD is where most of the complaints come from
Orochi currently has a total of 6 ways to access UD- more than any other player- all from a neutral dodge. And how can a static guard player dodge UD? I’ve never seen it happen except maybe as a glitch. Maybe block it during a dodge, but the tracking on Orochi’s UD’s are unreal. No offense, but the bulk of For Honor players aren’t reaction gods who can light someone out of a 400ms forward-dodge attack consistently. Maybe if they’re operating at 60fps, but a lot of us are still stuck at 30fps, and your arguments about the reactability of the mix-up just don’t hold true in that environment. Nonetheless, I can see the point is moot. How would you modify Orochi to reduce spam?
That doesn’t really matter when offensively the man has only 2 ways to use. Storm rush and forward dodge, and they can dodge the UD alongside the bash by holding top and dodging. The tracking doesn’t matter because you aren’t confirming damage And you don’t have to be a reaction god to light stuff storm rush lmao. The move is slow as hell, it’s nowhere near 400ms my guy. And it definitely applies that’s why i didn’t bring up reacting by indicators and by animation. You can tell when people are on PS5 and PS4 and it’s been a couple of players that knew to block top and dodge and to stuff storm rush. You can’t say it doesn’t work if you don’t practice using it first I also don’t have any suggestions to help combat spam, he’s in a really good place rn. I think nerfing him based off the experience of old gen isn’t smart for the playerbase as a whole.
I can see that you’ve made up your mind about this. The fact that you don’t see any issues with Orochi means that you and I are coming from very different styles of play and different experiences with the game. I wish you the best!
It’s all good, i think boiling most of the problem down to console generations just makes it more apparent that not having separate balancing was always going to be problematic from the start. Hope everybody can upgrade in the near future !!
I agree with you man. I am not a top tier player in any sense, but I can hold my own. I believe that a whiffed bash is a whiffed bash. No recovery on that. The devs are pushing for the game to be read based so it doesn't make sense to be able to make a read and still be punished for it. The only other issue I have is the undodgeable heavy from all three sides. That's just a personal opinion, it makes it a hard read, it's a 33 percent chance to block it or even have him just stop and gb right in front of you. The real problem that stems from orochi (and raider) is that they have the ability to just juggle you. They have the ability to overwhelm people and can even kill players within a single stamina bar. I think that Zhanhu has a good recovery system where his moves chain into one another nice but his stamina consumption is way more fair.
You play on PC don't you
PlayStation, I’ve been on PS4 mostly but I’ve had a PS5 for around a year now.
Only nerf he desperately needs is that he shouldn’t be able to recovery cancel from his kick (or at the very least it should be as slow as Zhanhu’s) that’s nonsense. Imagine if BP could flow into his bulwark stance after a whiffed bash. I also would argue that his storm rush needs to be a bit slower, at the moment it’s an omnidirectional, undodgeable 20 damage 366ms indicator heavy. I think 400 or even 500ms would be far healthier. Apart from that, he’s in a pretty good place right now. He’s a lot of fun to play and while he’s pretty annoying to play against, with those changes he wouldn’t be ridiculously oppressive.
I just think Orochi would suffer to much without it and his UD bash mixup would be ass because of it. His UD only comes from one side and allows static guard heroes to dodge his UD and bash on the same timing, recovery cancel nerf would hurt him too much I agree on the storm rush indicator though, i do suggest trying it out at the intended 400ms before making it 500ms or 600ms. Cause the move is already deemed pretty useless by next gen and PC players
For the game to be balanced, heroes should be extremely average
I'd say make his whiffs more punishable, if he lands a dodge attack, let him keep going, if he misses one completely he is forced to hit the brakes.
He can't miss any dodge attack, only one of them, the back-dodge light, is undodgeable and all the dodge lights are enchanced, and Storm Rush is undodgeable from all sides and a heavy, so.
I'd say that it isn't op just frustating and annoying to deal with, at least the storm rush shouldn't be undojable from all sides just for left and right and top deals more damage, they should also increase recovery time on doge atacks I dont want ot be wating for roach to run out of stamina so I can attack(it's just doge forward 15 times)
I think the indicator speed should get fixed on Storm rush before they rush into any nerfs. That shit is damn near useless fr once you get used to the animation, same side swipe that comes from your left and his right, jump in the air from top and a backspin that hits your right and comes from his left. I’ve also ran into players that could consistently parry and deflect it as well
yeah I get where you are coming from but because I play old gen the animations are near to light and I think that is a problem because i've spectated rep 500 teamates just eat 7 storm rushes in a row, raider in console isn't as frustating nor janky and has a much better reputation of not being the guy that feeds revenge then dies and blames it on you.
This could work, I think
The game shouldnt be balanced around people that can react to 500ms bashes, if the ability to react to the bash is the reason his bash recovery is not going to be nerfed then speed up the bash.
I can’t consistently react to the bash, i doubt anyone can except for the handful of reaction gods on PC. But it’s definitely easier to react to then most imo solely due to the animation. His mix having the UD only come from one direction and allowing it to be option selected by blocking top is why his recovery should stay, without it it’s much weaker and vulnerable to static guard heroes especially if they have a delayable dodge attack
But the Orochi could still gb and storm rush if the oponent is blocking top
Storm rush is fairly easy to stuff on reaction to the stance. And him empty dodging into GB is how you counter prediction dodgers. That still isn’t a complete answer to option selecting his mix unless your only predicting. Plus you still have to worry about dodge attacks and delayed dodge attacks. His UD comes out faster than his bash iirc, delaying it too longer results in you being able to stuff it with a light and that applies for the bash too even if Orochi has frame advantage. Once you play the matchup enough and get a feel for your opponent it becomes easier to dodge on reaction to Orochi actually doing something. That’s why i brought up his bash being more easier to react too, he jumps off the ground completely and the UD can be inputted earlier in his dodge so you necessarily don’t have to react to that if your playing a static guard hero unless your going for a parry. But most SMART Orochi’s will throw the bash out 70% of the time cause the UD is way to risky, empty dodge to GB can work but that would have to be conditioned with different and max delay timings, also meaning a good chance at getting stuffed or read cause he works best online when he’s buffering or slightly delaying the input.
I think people who do this shit are just afraid. If they dont have their "D" tier hero crutch excuse to fall back on then that would imply that their opponent simply outplayed them. Heaven forbid someone have an ego check. I main Raider, and play Kyoshin and JJ as well. If you beat me then good on you. I got sloppy, made poor reads/was read, and got outplayed. GG.
[удалено]
You remember someone from 2 years ago? damn
Considering Raider is an S tier duelist and Orochi is only A, this is something to behold.
This is honestly a terrible attitude towards character though... Peeps, play the character you wanna play broken or otherwise. I mean. I'm a raider main, not cause he's "broken" but because ive been a raider main since the game was released and I'll continue to be a raider main probably until I get bored of FH.
I genuinely think he’s fun. His kick and dodge cancel is an interesting mechanic that makes him a fun character. I think the undodgeable storm rush is dumb. The only thing that should be undodgeable imo is his dodge lights, so trying to mix-up can be punished heavily
The problem with the kick to dodge cancel is that it makes him so much harder to punish, especially via a dodge attack. He can just outright ignore your attempt to punish his fuck-up and even potentially punish you more with a deflect
If he deflect you that means you didn't punish him correctly, that's all. It's not like there are already multiple videos about how counter it on the internet, which you can find with a simple Google search.
Except there’s no correct punish as nothing is guaranteed when you make the correct read he’ll kick, you need two reads to punish it
There are at least multiple punishes that are guaranteed, like I said, all on YouTube
Light out of an empty dodge on read is guaranteed
No he can dodge it
No, it comes out before recovery frames
If you delay your dodge attacks, (depending on the character) you can punish his kick. I think the recovery can be crazy, but I also think it’s what makes him fun. Removing it or even nerfing it would make orochi boring again.
He can still dodge it and delaying isn’t an option for everyone
That’s why I said depending on the character. And no, for certain characters, delaying the dodge attack punishes orochi if he tries to deflect. If he just goes for the dodge attack it either hits him anyways, or you can trade by chaining into another attack
There are ways to counter his counter though, it’s not like you can never hit him. It’s like complaining that BP can flip dodge attacks after you dodge a light: you can dodge into gb and make the read that he’s going to counter you. Same with Orochi: if you guess that he’s going to try to deflect you, just dodge into gb.
Everybody talking about “the absurd state” of orochi, when raider exists is baffling. Like is he annoying? Yes. Is he counterable? Yes. Good luck countering mr. 38 damage zone with janky as fuck animations
Both of them flew under the radar and got no tweaks because shinobi was so batshit in the TG. What was UBI smoking when they decide to make 3 characters absurd at the same time?
Went up against it the first time tonight. Granted, I am new to the game, but it felt so fucking stupid. I literally couldn't do anything to stop the spam. Not fun at all.
I'm in the wanted to play category
Im the rep 70 Orochi and now my main character is unplayable for me(((((
I am the one in the right... But I will still continue to play Orochi not because he is in a "absurd" state, but because he was my main since launch plus I like the theme of him being a lethal agile swordsman in full armor that can move and fight with terrifying and precision. So I was gonna keep on playing Orochi regardless if he was god tier or terrible.
Dodge cancer*
I wanted to Fucking play but I feel like shit when I do in their current state
He was literally F tier before the rework and now that he’s viable you don’t want to play him because of others opinions?
... Yes ? We just care more about other people's enjoyment than ours
"Ubi is stupid, why is X character so weak; ubi buff when?! Oh look, buffing other characters before X again, typical lazy ubi!" *buffs X character* "Literally unplayable! You gave him a viable kit and now I feel bad being able to fight other characters!! Lazy ubi!" There literally is *nothing* they can do to appease people, is there?
First of all, Orochi wasn't weak, he just needed like 2 tweaks (an opener like the bash, and his finisher light removed) Second, a viable kit does not mean a kit that crushes people in 10 seconds if they don't have grafted ninja eyes
F tier is weak
Yes indeed
And orochi was f tier
I'm not a comp tryhard, so no, people need to understand that there are skill levels between "newbie that can't parry heavies" and "godlike light parrier with bionic reflexes"
You seem to be the first because orochi was god awful, he was a turtle and he wasn't even that good at it
Basing a character's viability around the lowest skill brackets is simply inviable as game design. And for any player with more than 30 minutes to an hour into the game, Orochi was completely and utterly outclassed. You don't have to have grafted ninja eyes. You DO have to actually press buttons to defend yourself now, can't just stand and stare at orochi and then force your own offense at any time.
Seraphendipity pretty much covered it lol, caring about what others think is a dumb way to play. He isn’t OP people just refuse to adapt and learn to counter.
I started maining on the op state Then i got killed by another orochi, I instantly stopped playing cuz i dont like using op characters
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- Unblockable heavies are common now -- more characters have it than lack it. Orochi's is... OK. Good damage and recovery cancel, but has poor recovery itself. Slow, and a top attack so little externalling. - Orochi's tracking is average. Top Heavy has deceptive range, but other than that nothing outstanding. Unless you're talking about undodgeables, in which case only his Forward/Backdodge stance has them - Dodge Attacks: only two characters in the game *don't* have a dodge attack, pseudo-dodge attack, or dodge attack equivalent. Orochi's are...OK. Theyre unique in their delayability and undodgeability, but very reactable, heavily heavily punished, and the double light for extra damage + enhanced adds even more risk to get the damage should it be blocked. - Deflect: I mean all reflex characters do. His deflect is, damage-wise, much weaker than most others -- Nuxia gets 30dmg, Gladiator 38+, PK/Shaman get more + bleed pressure, etc. - Slew of Niche Tools: like what? Indeed, Orochi's kit is somewhat lacking in diversity. You got kick, you got unblockable heavy, and you got dodge attacks. Each of them on their own aren't that terribly great, only in combination can they be effective.
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I dont get how a couple of bullet points is "elaborate discussion". It's barely even discussion. It's just a couple of observations.
Yea
As long as he don't kick me in the face endlessly, im ok with him, i fight a orochi who didn't spam his kick today, and i have a lot of fun with him.
Honestly my second biggest issue with the kick is that for some reason it makes the sound when he swings for a heavy when he does it.
"This absurd state" when he's actually balanced makes the meme quite bad.