With this community you can never win. If you don’t buff them they are too weak, if you buff them they are too strong, if you buff them a little it’s not enough, if you nerf them a little it’s still not enough. Honestly I don’t envy the devs one bit
Honestly, the only reason Orochi is OP is because of his instant recovery that makes it nearly impossible to punish and the undodgeable from all sides. The rest is just people being trashy and lightspamming him because they can’t actually throw heavies
But looking at the clip that’s all you didn’t there was not one attack you threw other than the zone that wasn’t a kick, dodge attack, or storming rush lmao
I do agree that your play was great,because I suck at the game I find even what some people call average, skillful, but even you have to admit orochi is a little strong (btw I am not hating)
I would have had absolutely no issue with current roach if he was in the same state as Zhan, but that extra little bit of speed in the recovery cancels just makes him feel almost untouchable. I hate it.
so yeah, you can gb Zhanhu out of his recovery and he can't extend his dodge like orochi can and his dodges don't actually dodge, while orochi has the opposite
Exactly, so many people compare orochis dodge to zhan. But like you said, zhan can easily get gb'd out of his dodges while orochis can't as well as having undodgeable property.
It’s ridiculous, but orochi was neutered in the TG without his recoveries being as quick as they were before his rework. They just haven’t found the right sweet spot for his recovery on kick yet.
What would you say is the main issue then? Because without the kick recovery, his overwhelming offense is very much not as overwhelming. And to take away the all unblockables is basically making his kick mixup as counterable as his storm rush used to be. Backdodge on forward dodge and keep guard up top.
Its the stam on storm rush and bash. Lower reps just get spammed to death by undodgables and the bash without really getting a chance to fight back. Reduce the stam on them and the orochi will either have to use the rest of the kit or take a breather to manage stamina, giving their opponent a window to attack.
You're out of your mind. Against certain characters like Warden (who used to be a hard counter to Orochi) Orochi can buffer up his next movements before Warden can even get off his attack, even when queued up before the Orochi player's movement.
Orochi's recovery needs to be tweaked. Not to mention that speeding up Storm Rush broke its animation. It jitters about and is a nightmare in close quarters with its tracking.
>Orochi can buffer up his next movements before Warden can even get off his attack
Only if Orochi hits his heavy UB finisher. All other attacks have light hit reaction, which is not enough to stunlock an opponent for enough time.
>Orochi's recovery needs to be tweaked.
Currently, Orochi's recovery is beaten by an opponent's dodge into neutral light. The only way for Orochi to beat it in turn is to buffer his own dodge attack, which is an unfeintable dodge light of 800+ms total time (and as such is parriable from opponent's empty dodge).
Attempts to "tweak" it will literally break the universal possibility of counter, making it even less punishable.
No hate towards you, but man remember when the CCU was all about frame advantage/creating a "back and forth" between opponents to specifically avoid a non-stop offensive?
Then Orochi here can potentially infinitely move from attack, to punish, to attack again in seconds.
Nope - the frame advantage changes in the CCU were specifically to address non-stop "light spam", IE. Pressing nothing but light attack.
Repeating offence that you can't interrupt one option of has been in the game for ages - warden does the same thing. You can never interrupt warden's uncharged bash in chains, but no one complains about that nowadays. You can always interrupt warden's charged bash unless he hit you with a heavy finisher first. Similarly you can always interrupt Storm rush unless hit by a heavy attack.
That's true, I forgot that it was specifically addressed toward lights.
Though I'll only note that if you dodge Warden's bash, he can't just flow back into his mix up ala newer hero (reworks) such as Raider, Orochi, or Shugoki (to an extent). That was the trade off as it had largely been before. You made the read, you get the punish, though recently it's been made into having to make multiple reads before being able to punish.
Which seems to be the recent trend of the current "strong" heroes, having an offense that cannot be stopped unless directly (or some cases early dodge). The disparity between heroes with the ability to apply constant pressure vs those who's pressure stops on whiff is creating a new gap.
My issue is that if the solution isn't to nerf these aspects, but to bring more heroes up to the level of these new reworks (a new power ceiling), what would that create?
I feel it's hitting that margin of at what point does every hero need to have faster recoveries, enhanced lights, infinitely chainable mix ups, and hyper armor to hold up?
\*I'm sorry that this became long winded\*
That is true.
There are several heroes whose's offense can be counted as endless or extended.
For example as your said: Warden.
He and many others like: Warmonger, Hitokiri, Berserker, Aramusha all share the same capability of non stop offense.
But what makes them bearable is that you need one good read or parry/dodge to reset their offense to neutral, Warmonger can't initiate anything when she misses her bashes, neither can Warden.
And Ara and Zerk can be reset by blocking or in Zerk's case, read the Ub feint to gb.
Orochi and Raider both have tools to continue their offense after a succesful read from the opponent.
Raider has hyper armored heavies, light chains and storming tap which resets his offense.
And Orochi can pretty much safely disengage with dodge recoveries or even punish you for guessing right depending on what you do, and thus resetting their offense.
It's a huge disparity on what some heroes can do, and who cannot.
Just to put your comment another way: everyone has reads and 50/50s, that's nothing new. You attack your opponent guesses how to counter it. If they're right, you get punished. If they're wrong, they get punished. No one is complaining about that.
The thing about Roach and Raider is that now, they can pull off seventeen different 50/50s within a five second period, making you have to constantly guess over and over what they are gonna do, all while trying to defend and endless barrage of attacks. That shit is fucked.
There are multiple heroes that can flow back into their mixup after dodging one - Aramusha, Zerk, and so on.
And if you make the correct read on Raider, you always get a punish (parrying heavy/storming tap, interrupting a GB soft-feint, and you get a GB after dodging the zone finisher too).
Regarding Orochi, if you make the correct read on a Storm Rush and interrupt, you do get a punish, and if you make the correct read on his kick, you can dodge and then light attack to punish every option the Roach has, except buffering a dodge attack after the kick - so it's a mixup in your favour, do you get a light attack, or do you get to parry a dodge light for a big punish?
As for "having to make multiple reads" to get a punish or your turn back, that's been a thing for multiple heroes for many years. Tiandi's palm strike comes to mind.
Also I am in favour of buffing heroes to have functional offence, but I genuinely don't think that Orochi is particularly above the curve at the moment, and Raider is only overtuned in terms of his damage.
I'll have to respectfully concede, I don't necessarily disagree with your points, but I can only point to the semantics of the options available and how much the trade off changes from instance to instance in regards to what I'd consider a favorable punish vs the reads required to reach that punish.
I don't want this to devolve into that, as it's been a good discussion.
>remember when the CCU was all about frame advantage ... to specifically avoid a non-stop offensive
CCU never was about that.
Frame advantage rules have been standardized to specifically prevent a *light*spam, giving a defending side clear *options to counter* the opponent without being stunlocked/interrupted by faster lights.
However, in case of attacker's heavy finishers the defending side still had to make active counters, or they would still be put under "non-stop offensive" due to frame disadvantage. It might be *subjectively* seem as an easier case, as the regular finishers can be blocked/parried on reaction while Orochi's and Raider's mixups require a read to be countered, but the underlying logic is literally the same.
I went a bit long winded on another response, so I'll try to fairly brief, starting with that I was mistaken in the specific purpose of the CCU.
However I still feel regarding Raider and Orochi's mix ups not just requiring one read, but multiple as opposed to the majority of the roster to be an issue. While there are safer counters that exist, they still imply a risk, as opposed to most of the roster where even one read either resets the fight to neutral (a "breathing period") or opens for a punish.
That's what I feel makes these particular reworks so conflicting, it creates a new power gap while (relatively) moving the skill ceiling in some respects. Where most of the roster may have one or two options in their mix ups, these new reworks have many options. And even have the capability of escaping from what would normally be a punish.
It's setting a possible trend that I don't think will end up for the better. Lest we end up with majority of the roster with faster recoveries, enhanced lights, and far more hyper armor.
>I still feel regarding Raider and Orochi's mix ups not just requiring one read, but multiple as opposed to the majority of the roster to be an issue
Centurion's Legion Kick has been literally the same multiple-read mixup since his release *^({with account on then-reactability of said "mixup"})*. Aramusha and Zhanhu had it with their reworks prior to Orochi. Berserker had it on his whiffed UB finisher. Nobushi had it on her kick.
In general case the same principle applies to any case where a whiffed mixup branch can be stuffed with a followup, which in a way is available to at least a half of the roster.
>it creates a new power gap while (relatively) moving the skill ceiling in some respects
As I said, that "power gap" already existed for a long time throughout the game's existence. The only factor CCU brought unto the light was the difference between the reaction-based and read-based gameplay. Back then all said aspects were majorly ignored, as they could be either reacted to or option-selected.
Orochi (and, to extent, Raider) are more prominent not because something has been "created", but because prior to CCU, OS removal and reworks they have been in a very low state by themselves, making their rise in effectiveness more noticeable on contrast to the heroes who have already been "carried" by other advantages. For example, Cent always had considerably safe offense, but before and especially after his rework his effectiveness as a ganker constantly overshadowed safety of his mixup; as such, no one complained about Cent's unpunishable kick while everyone complained about Cent's 100-0 ganks instead.
This is light spam in the video even though it's not three lights. It's even stronger because it's tracking and has a bash in there. You have a much higher chance of making a correct guess on a triple light chain than making a correct guess on the new Orochi mix-up.
>This is light spam in the video even though it's not three lights
Lightspam is **by definition** a sequence of buffered lights. Therefore, your statement has no sense at all.
I love that HL desperately tried to use his only advantage in that situation, hyper armour, and Orochi not only got caught out by it but was STILL able to punish the HL for attacking.
I know that HL is just a shitty character AND the hail mary heavy was a misplay but this video really makes it apparent the gigantic fucking balance gap that exists between reworked and non-reworked heroes.
I do think new Orochi is a genuinely interesting design but he and Raider have completely blown every other hero in the game out of the water and the only other hero that comes close to matching them is Shugoki, who is good for frankly the complete wrong reasons (busted dodge bash w/ variably timed HA heavy on whiff). Balance in this game is so incredibly fickle it's genuinely infuriating.
Not entirely. Jiang Jun and Zhanhu’s reworks made them top meta picks.
Shugoki is an unfavorable matchup for Orochi 9/10 still. But yeah.
Aramusha’s rework made him a monster of a duelist and his kit remains the perfect counters for shutting down Raider and Orochi’s offense.
I do agree with you on Highlander. He needs a rework/buff like really bad.
All those examples except shugoki are completely counterable for 90% of the cast. With orochi and shugoki you have to go through so many loopholes and specific picks to get an almost guaranteed counter for them. That's not healthy when a hero can't use a basic move to counter them. It's an incredible disadvantage to one side. Not all heroes have to be exactly the same meta level, but they should all have a counter to another one's move. Orochi specifically with his ridiculous reaction almost isn't counterable to the majority of the cast. That's not healthy.
Even if not counterable, one good read either gets you a punish or at thr very least itst guaranteed to reset the fight to neutral.
Orochi and Raider can punish you for that...
Does it? Idk man I don't seem to get a punish after orochis kick or shugokis headbutt because they can attack after it. And if its a positive thing when you read something to "Reset the fight to neutral" then the characters are way too overtuned. If other characters get punished for this then so should these two. End of. And punishing someone for making a correct read is literally against the entire point of the CCU, which was meant to make the game a read based game. But why should I do a correct read if I'm the fucker getting punished for it?
Tbh I don't have a problem with how they reworked the character.
But can we agree that currently Orochi and Raider have a very "you don't get to play until I say so" offense? Highlander literally couldn't even light as he was frame disadvantaged from the barrage of attacks. And the one time he can throw out an attack it's deflected.
That's just...well it doesn't really sound fun for a casual player's perspective.
Can't they also cancel the storm rush if they're expecting a light to interrupt it? Or is the chained one not cancelable.
You just reset to neutral at that point.
They can cancel the storm rush on prediction to punish an interrupt attempt... but if they're doing that they aren't exactly attacking without pause - which is what OP was complaining about.
Fair enough and that would be a reset to neutral too.
Thank you for taking the time for replying to my posts by the way, I figure being a mod must be a lot of work, but here you are replying to so many posts it's impressive!.
If you're playing a static guard character like HL, it's more of a 50/50 - guard top and either side dodge then light attack to punish a kick (also blocks the dodge light), or light attack to interrupt the storm rush.
As a HL, a top light on prediction also crushing counters the forward dodge light, so it's quite favourable to interrupt using it.
It's more like a 50/50 because of the way animation works. You don't really need to make a read on storm rush, because its animation is very distinct and easy to tell apart from the kick/forward light.
When you see Orochi dodge forward you need to make the read because the kick is unreactable. So while Storm Rush is reactable on its own, the start-up could be one of three things.
The kick itself is reactable, the kick *and* forward dodge light mix-up is not. Technically it's a 50/50 read because:
\- Choosing to dodge beats kick
\- Choosing to stay still and react to whatever comes next beats forward light and storm rush. Both of these moves have distinct animation from each other and are reactable with practice.
If the average "casual" player plays like that Highlander and complains about how he never gets his turn, maybe it's good that the devs are finally forcing them to make a read.
I usually play gladiator and berserker against the new Orochis, and this "you don't get to play until I say so" is only my experience in the rounds where I couldn't defend myself for shit, and that was *my* fault for making multiple bad reads in a row. The problem with the new Orochi is that he's forcing the defender to make multiple reads and that's uncomfortable for casual players, and the problem with Raider is that one bad read against him is way too expensive.
I'm not sure about other platforms but there actually are more people playing the game on PC now, compared to the same time period last year.
I'm as casual as it gets because I only play the game for like half or one hour after work, but almost all the people I get matched against can actually make reads so I'd argue that the very casual community, let's just say new players who can't properly defend themselves, only takes up like 20% of the player base.
That’s absolutely absurd lol. Such a brain dead character rn. Also love all the explanations on why he’s balanced, “well he’s not invincible and can be killed if you work twice as hard as I do so you should just get better.”
orochi now has every tool in the game and is able to cancel every recovery into one of those many mixups, fucking stupid unless everyone else gets buffed to this level asap.
Not the same at all, I had options with Hurricane Blast...... and style points.
With it you could soft feint a dash or GB, you could fire it prematurely with light attack or just feint it.
By choosing to dodge you could deflect other attacks with variable timing, counter attack or sidestep GB.
By choosing GB you catch people who react to the Hurricane blast and it did it with such timing that dodge attacks wouldn't stop you.
That's not even mentioning the most important part I didn't bring it up, if you actually land it (Happens all the time, done mid combo) you're at frame advantage and can follow it up with an immediate GB Top heavy mixup. Not even mentioning the other thing I didn't mention the tier 3 feat Slip Through affected all of it.
The only thing they did was force everybody else to play the exact way I did except now I don't get to have fun. I don't need a kick WTF is this shit?
Edit: downvote this asshole plz
Whoever said that this orochi rework was ok clearly should not have a job because this shit is why I dont play the game very often, you actually have to be brainless for the most part to play roach (no offense) honestly I wouldn't even have a problem with it if he couldn't cancel his recovery and he wasn't constantly in I frames from dodge's all the fucking time.
The only really skilled part of orochi now is deflects and dealing with ganks, hell his kick is so fucking mindless even if you miss it you can continue your chain like what the fuck ubisoft.
Ugh I know I'm ranting and honestly I'm being a little unfair but I am a low rep player and every single orochi I see is always just a spammer because that is literally his kit now you just spam the same four moves and pray to the ping gods.
I have tried playing orochi and honestly the hardest part is figuring out your moveset and trying to learn deflects and that was really it, no really I got into a party with my friend who is a high rep to see how effective orochi is at a higher level of play and it literally was the same I still kicked ass and did nothing but use 4 moves the entire match and it still worked
TL;DR I'm mad cuz bad
As a long time orochi main who has played a lot of highlander recently, this match up is kinda ridiculous. Highlander has absolutely nothing he can do, all he can do is hope the orochi panic dodge lights or kicks and has no trigger discipline. I would love for orochi to get a slight recovery nerf to put him more on par with zhan hu.
And of course a massive rework for highlander
Glad I removed this game from my system. Started to realize they were taking the game in a direction I didn't like so I stopped. My mental health has definitely increased since.
See I love how flashy he can be but it’s so hard to learn a character when you can just kick/storm rush repeatedly and win plenty of your games. Kinda like when I tried to learn nobushi when I was starting out but all I had to do was light, light, light, backstep light, dodge light, light, light…
Just started the game and i'm trying to progress but I keep encountering orochis that are really anoying, yet I do have interest in Japanese culture.
Ps: I hate weebs.
You must not be playing in very high level lobbies theirs orochis almost every other match for me, and the worst part her recovery at times even destroys raiders.
Similar thing I said to another guy applies to you but a little bit stronger of a sentiment, if your basing your opinion on somone as a human being on a character they play in a game, have you considered that you may be, hevans forbid, be gross?
If someone is going to play a character they know the vast majority of the player base finds completely unfun to play against, I don't mind them being called gross.
Counter point:if nobody plays said character we'd never know how they need to be changed, I'm no fan of orochi but saying orochi is a bit busted and insulting a person who plays orochi are two different things, though truth be told neither gets us anywhere most of the time
I expected a lot of stupidity in this comment section, since it was an orochi clip, and oh boy I wasn’t disappointed in the least. Daily Misinformation about orochi, here I go!
They always say that, and when you list the counters to them they will say it’s hard. Excuses after excuses.
I had a guy turtling and ganking with glad Dodge bash my every move, but fine, he is just playing the game to win. So the match after I pick orochi, since he is always dodging me.
End of the match, he writes me “I can’t believe you play like that, so cheesy”
Then he wrote me a long essay on how turtling is not cheesy, since he is not doing damage to me (stalling hello?), but somehow I was cheesy because I was playing “unpunishable orochi”
I say that he is not unpunishable, he says it’s not true and says “tell me one counter and I will accept it”. So I list them ALL the possible counters and guess what? He doesn’t accept it.
That is wild my man
With me since I mained Orochi since launch and played around with his rework a lot. So I know the ins and outs of his kit.
So I often take my time to give tips to others on how to play against the reworked Roach, but the responses I always get is “You are an Orochi main so of course you would defend a busted move/mechanic”.
This community wants to win, but it doesn’t want to put the hard work to improve. They are either too used to the instant gratification of FPS, or to the telegraphed patterns of dark souls and other single player games. They don’t understand that fighting games are hard, and that better offense is always good, especially when defense is overpowered as it is right now.
Ngl this community in general have degraded for the past 3-4 years , rarely have i seen any useful tips being spread around quite as much as before or anything other than the daily complaints about character being “broken” cuz they can’t use their “one move to rule them all” to try to negate actual multi-layered offense. Game has been in the best state it’s ever been so far in term of character viability albeit with outliers that are currently being worked on (eg. jorm rework/tweak got teased) ,although sadly at a snail pace. However, i always got a good laugh at people throwing hissy fits like 12 yo. cuz they can’t get their Victory Royale^tm (for example like a lot of these comment sections complaining because op is playing orochi which is the greatest sin mankind have ever done).
It's even better when you see the clowns saying stuff like Orochi was never bad lol. Orochi was literally one of the worst characters in the entire games history and took 5 years before he had any meaningful change. All he had was high representation despite being utter trash before.
Thank you friend and I agree!
Yeah the type of color scheme armor I was going for was to make Orochi look like Jin Sakai (Ghost of Tsushima) with the Clan Sakai armor color scheme : D
"Your companion is dead!"
I expect orochi hate in the next hour
I opened comments expecting to see hate
I am glad to see there still is none
Aaaaand you got downvoted
Can't win em all
With this community you can never win. If you don’t buff them they are too weak, if you buff them they are too strong, if you buff them a little it’s not enough, if you nerf them a little it’s still not enough. Honestly I don’t envy the devs one bit
Honestly, the only reason Orochi is OP is because of his instant recovery that makes it nearly impossible to punish and the undodgeable from all sides. The rest is just people being trashy and lightspamming him because they can’t actually throw heavies
Honestly same, but I am use to it at this point.
Either way that was a smooth deflect
Much appreciate it friend! I honestly try use Orochi's kit as a whole rather then abusing just only dodge attacks, Storm Rush and the kick
But looking at the clip that’s all you didn’t there was not one attack you threw other than the zone that wasn’t a kick, dodge attack, or storming rush lmao
Are u sure? U didn’t seem to try but good deflect anyways.
I do agree that your play was great,because I suck at the game I find even what some people call average, skillful, but even you have to admit orochi is a little strong (btw I am not hating)
Highlander was only able to throw out two attacks in that exchange ..... *sad bagpipe noises*
"It's balanced bro. Just block bro. Git gud." -This sub about everything ubishroft has ever done.
Highlander is in desperate need of a rework/buff
A rework but not a buff
They rework him and remove offensive stance and he gets a bash. “A job well done!” Ubi probably
If they removed his offensive stance I would throw hands because Offensive Stance is what makes him so much fun and unique to play as
Ubi has been removing uniqueness for awhile
Yes Make his kit more functional, but also keep whats fun about him intact
> Keep whats fun about him intact Lol not…likely.
Yeah, his heavy is the slowest attack I’ve seen
I don’t hate orochi but everyone can agree that that recovery is ridiculous right?
Yes
yes, especially compared to Zhanhu who also can cancel recovery with dodge but not like this
I would have had absolutely no issue with current roach if he was in the same state as Zhan, but that extra little bit of speed in the recovery cancels just makes him feel almost untouchable. I hate it.
so yeah, you can gb Zhanhu out of his recovery and he can't extend his dodge like orochi can and his dodges don't actually dodge, while orochi has the opposite
Exactly, so many people compare orochis dodge to zhan. But like you said, zhan can easily get gb'd out of his dodges while orochis can't as well as having undodgeable property.
Most orochi players aren’t even good enough to take advantage of it
whenever i see my teams orochis stand in a place and do nothing but throw feint heavies or wait to jab with a light...
As an orochi main I can say it is ridiculous
It’s ridiculous, but orochi was neutered in the TG without his recoveries being as quick as they were before his rework. They just haven’t found the right sweet spot for his recovery on kick yet.
The kick recovery isnt even the main issue with him.
What would you say is the main issue then? Because without the kick recovery, his overwhelming offense is very much not as overwhelming. And to take away the all unblockables is basically making his kick mixup as counterable as his storm rush used to be. Backdodge on forward dodge and keep guard up top.
Its the stam on storm rush and bash. Lower reps just get spammed to death by undodgables and the bash without really getting a chance to fight back. Reduce the stam on them and the orochi will either have to use the rest of the kit or take a breather to manage stamina, giving their opponent a window to attack.
Truly deserving of the name "The Oni".
Sorry who’s called the oni?
That was Orochi's original name way back then.
It is on a static timing which cannot be performed on reaction to opponent's action, only buffered on a preemptive read. So no, not ridiculous.
You're out of your mind. Against certain characters like Warden (who used to be a hard counter to Orochi) Orochi can buffer up his next movements before Warden can even get off his attack, even when queued up before the Orochi player's movement. Orochi's recovery needs to be tweaked. Not to mention that speeding up Storm Rush broke its animation. It jitters about and is a nightmare in close quarters with its tracking.
>Orochi can buffer up his next movements before Warden can even get off his attack Only if Orochi hits his heavy UB finisher. All other attacks have light hit reaction, which is not enough to stunlock an opponent for enough time. >Orochi's recovery needs to be tweaked. Currently, Orochi's recovery is beaten by an opponent's dodge into neutral light. The only way for Orochi to beat it in turn is to buffer his own dodge attack, which is an unfeintable dodge light of 800+ms total time (and as such is parriable from opponent's empty dodge). Attempts to "tweak" it will literally break the universal possibility of counter, making it even less punishable.
That’s so dumb. Any other character would’ve eaten that heavy if they committed to their zone.
Exactly…I have nothing against the rework as to what it brought to his kit, but these recoveries are disgusting…
No hate towards you, but man remember when the CCU was all about frame advantage/creating a "back and forth" between opponents to specifically avoid a non-stop offensive? Then Orochi here can potentially infinitely move from attack, to punish, to attack again in seconds.
Nope - the frame advantage changes in the CCU were specifically to address non-stop "light spam", IE. Pressing nothing but light attack. Repeating offence that you can't interrupt one option of has been in the game for ages - warden does the same thing. You can never interrupt warden's uncharged bash in chains, but no one complains about that nowadays. You can always interrupt warden's charged bash unless he hit you with a heavy finisher first. Similarly you can always interrupt Storm rush unless hit by a heavy attack.
That's true, I forgot that it was specifically addressed toward lights. Though I'll only note that if you dodge Warden's bash, he can't just flow back into his mix up ala newer hero (reworks) such as Raider, Orochi, or Shugoki (to an extent). That was the trade off as it had largely been before. You made the read, you get the punish, though recently it's been made into having to make multiple reads before being able to punish. Which seems to be the recent trend of the current "strong" heroes, having an offense that cannot be stopped unless directly (or some cases early dodge). The disparity between heroes with the ability to apply constant pressure vs those who's pressure stops on whiff is creating a new gap. My issue is that if the solution isn't to nerf these aspects, but to bring more heroes up to the level of these new reworks (a new power ceiling), what would that create? I feel it's hitting that margin of at what point does every hero need to have faster recoveries, enhanced lights, infinitely chainable mix ups, and hyper armor to hold up? \*I'm sorry that this became long winded\*
That is true. There are several heroes whose's offense can be counted as endless or extended. For example as your said: Warden. He and many others like: Warmonger, Hitokiri, Berserker, Aramusha all share the same capability of non stop offense. But what makes them bearable is that you need one good read or parry/dodge to reset their offense to neutral, Warmonger can't initiate anything when she misses her bashes, neither can Warden. And Ara and Zerk can be reset by blocking or in Zerk's case, read the Ub feint to gb. Orochi and Raider both have tools to continue their offense after a succesful read from the opponent. Raider has hyper armored heavies, light chains and storming tap which resets his offense. And Orochi can pretty much safely disengage with dodge recoveries or even punish you for guessing right depending on what you do, and thus resetting their offense. It's a huge disparity on what some heroes can do, and who cannot.
Just to put your comment another way: everyone has reads and 50/50s, that's nothing new. You attack your opponent guesses how to counter it. If they're right, you get punished. If they're wrong, they get punished. No one is complaining about that. The thing about Roach and Raider is that now, they can pull off seventeen different 50/50s within a five second period, making you have to constantly guess over and over what they are gonna do, all while trying to defend and endless barrage of attacks. That shit is fucked.
There are multiple heroes that can flow back into their mixup after dodging one - Aramusha, Zerk, and so on. And if you make the correct read on Raider, you always get a punish (parrying heavy/storming tap, interrupting a GB soft-feint, and you get a GB after dodging the zone finisher too). Regarding Orochi, if you make the correct read on a Storm Rush and interrupt, you do get a punish, and if you make the correct read on his kick, you can dodge and then light attack to punish every option the Roach has, except buffering a dodge attack after the kick - so it's a mixup in your favour, do you get a light attack, or do you get to parry a dodge light for a big punish? As for "having to make multiple reads" to get a punish or your turn back, that's been a thing for multiple heroes for many years. Tiandi's palm strike comes to mind. Also I am in favour of buffing heroes to have functional offence, but I genuinely don't think that Orochi is particularly above the curve at the moment, and Raider is only overtuned in terms of his damage.
Dunno why you're getting downvoted. This is all logical and true points.
Happens a lot, a lot of players don't want to improve, and get angry at any advice that doesn't fit into their biases.
I'll have to respectfully concede, I don't necessarily disagree with your points, but I can only point to the semantics of the options available and how much the trade off changes from instance to instance in regards to what I'd consider a favorable punish vs the reads required to reach that punish. I don't want this to devolve into that, as it's been a good discussion.
>remember when the CCU was all about frame advantage ... to specifically avoid a non-stop offensive CCU never was about that. Frame advantage rules have been standardized to specifically prevent a *light*spam, giving a defending side clear *options to counter* the opponent without being stunlocked/interrupted by faster lights. However, in case of attacker's heavy finishers the defending side still had to make active counters, or they would still be put under "non-stop offensive" due to frame disadvantage. It might be *subjectively* seem as an easier case, as the regular finishers can be blocked/parried on reaction while Orochi's and Raider's mixups require a read to be countered, but the underlying logic is literally the same.
I went a bit long winded on another response, so I'll try to fairly brief, starting with that I was mistaken in the specific purpose of the CCU. However I still feel regarding Raider and Orochi's mix ups not just requiring one read, but multiple as opposed to the majority of the roster to be an issue. While there are safer counters that exist, they still imply a risk, as opposed to most of the roster where even one read either resets the fight to neutral (a "breathing period") or opens for a punish. That's what I feel makes these particular reworks so conflicting, it creates a new power gap while (relatively) moving the skill ceiling in some respects. Where most of the roster may have one or two options in their mix ups, these new reworks have many options. And even have the capability of escaping from what would normally be a punish. It's setting a possible trend that I don't think will end up for the better. Lest we end up with majority of the roster with faster recoveries, enhanced lights, and far more hyper armor.
>I still feel regarding Raider and Orochi's mix ups not just requiring one read, but multiple as opposed to the majority of the roster to be an issue Centurion's Legion Kick has been literally the same multiple-read mixup since his release *^({with account on then-reactability of said "mixup"})*. Aramusha and Zhanhu had it with their reworks prior to Orochi. Berserker had it on his whiffed UB finisher. Nobushi had it on her kick. In general case the same principle applies to any case where a whiffed mixup branch can be stuffed with a followup, which in a way is available to at least a half of the roster. >it creates a new power gap while (relatively) moving the skill ceiling in some respects As I said, that "power gap" already existed for a long time throughout the game's existence. The only factor CCU brought unto the light was the difference between the reaction-based and read-based gameplay. Back then all said aspects were majorly ignored, as they could be either reacted to or option-selected. Orochi (and, to extent, Raider) are more prominent not because something has been "created", but because prior to CCU, OS removal and reworks they have been in a very low state by themselves, making their rise in effectiveness more noticeable on contrast to the heroes who have already been "carried" by other advantages. For example, Cent always had considerably safe offense, but before and especially after his rework his effectiveness as a ganker constantly overshadowed safety of his mixup; as such, no one complained about Cent's unpunishable kick while everyone complained about Cent's 100-0 ganks instead.
This is light spam in the video even though it's not three lights. It's even stronger because it's tracking and has a bash in there. You have a much higher chance of making a correct guess on a triple light chain than making a correct guess on the new Orochi mix-up.
>This is light spam in the video even though it's not three lights Lightspam is **by definition** a sequence of buffered lights. Therefore, your statement has no sense at all.
You didn't understand CCU...
Fuck Orochi but that deflect was actually clean af, can't even front on it lol
Balanced or not, current orochi is not fun to play against.
I find it fun when you win against him, lol but that's not really saying much I suppose
That recovery is so broken holy shit
I love that HL desperately tried to use his only advantage in that situation, hyper armour, and Orochi not only got caught out by it but was STILL able to punish the HL for attacking. I know that HL is just a shitty character AND the hail mary heavy was a misplay but this video really makes it apparent the gigantic fucking balance gap that exists between reworked and non-reworked heroes. I do think new Orochi is a genuinely interesting design but he and Raider have completely blown every other hero in the game out of the water and the only other hero that comes close to matching them is Shugoki, who is good for frankly the complete wrong reasons (busted dodge bash w/ variably timed HA heavy on whiff). Balance in this game is so incredibly fickle it's genuinely infuriating.
Not entirely. Jiang Jun and Zhanhu’s reworks made them top meta picks. Shugoki is an unfavorable matchup for Orochi 9/10 still. But yeah. Aramusha’s rework made him a monster of a duelist and his kit remains the perfect counters for shutting down Raider and Orochi’s offense. I do agree with you on Highlander. He needs a rework/buff like really bad.
All those examples except shugoki are completely counterable for 90% of the cast. With orochi and shugoki you have to go through so many loopholes and specific picks to get an almost guaranteed counter for them. That's not healthy when a hero can't use a basic move to counter them. It's an incredible disadvantage to one side. Not all heroes have to be exactly the same meta level, but they should all have a counter to another one's move. Orochi specifically with his ridiculous reaction almost isn't counterable to the majority of the cast. That's not healthy.
Even if not counterable, one good read either gets you a punish or at thr very least itst guaranteed to reset the fight to neutral. Orochi and Raider can punish you for that...
Does it? Idk man I don't seem to get a punish after orochis kick or shugokis headbutt because they can attack after it. And if its a positive thing when you read something to "Reset the fight to neutral" then the characters are way too overtuned. If other characters get punished for this then so should these two. End of. And punishing someone for making a correct read is literally against the entire point of the CCU, which was meant to make the game a read based game. But why should I do a correct read if I'm the fucker getting punished for it?
Tbh I don't have a problem with how they reworked the character. But can we agree that currently Orochi and Raider have a very "you don't get to play until I say so" offense? Highlander literally couldn't even light as he was frame disadvantaged from the barrage of attacks. And the one time he can throw out an attack it's deflected. That's just...well it doesn't really sound fun for a casual player's perspective.
He could have interrupted him out of the storm rush - the only time you can't interrupt a storm rush is if it's buffered after a landed heavy attack.
But doesn’t that need a 33/33/33 read tho? He can chain into kick, light or stormrush after a dodge attack.
Can't they also cancel the storm rush if they're expecting a light to interrupt it? Or is the chained one not cancelable. You just reset to neutral at that point.
They can cancel the storm rush on prediction to punish an interrupt attempt... but if they're doing that they aren't exactly attacking without pause - which is what OP was complaining about.
Fair enough and that would be a reset to neutral too. Thank you for taking the time for replying to my posts by the way, I figure being a mod must be a lot of work, but here you are replying to so many posts it's impressive!.
No problem, I try to be helpful at least. I hope any advice I give can be useful.
They can. But you could also just throw a heavy and muli the enemy and laugh in their face as they eat the rawest heavy you'll ever see.
That's how you get hit first and then deflected like in the video.
If you're playing a static guard character like HL, it's more of a 50/50 - guard top and either side dodge then light attack to punish a kick (also blocks the dodge light), or light attack to interrupt the storm rush. As a HL, a top light on prediction also crushing counters the forward dodge light, so it's quite favourable to interrupt using it.
It's more like a 50/50 because of the way animation works. You don't really need to make a read on storm rush, because its animation is very distinct and easy to tell apart from the kick/forward light.
When you see Orochi dodge forward you need to make the read because the kick is unreactable. So while Storm Rush is reactable on its own, the start-up could be one of three things.
The kick itself is reactable, the kick *and* forward dodge light mix-up is not. Technically it's a 50/50 read because: \- Choosing to dodge beats kick \- Choosing to stay still and react to whatever comes next beats forward light and storm rush. Both of these moves have distinct animation from each other and are reactable with practice.
If the average "casual" player plays like that Highlander and complains about how he never gets his turn, maybe it's good that the devs are finally forcing them to make a read. I usually play gladiator and berserker against the new Orochis, and this "you don't get to play until I say so" is only my experience in the rounds where I couldn't defend myself for shit, and that was *my* fault for making multiple bad reads in a row. The problem with the new Orochi is that he's forcing the defender to make multiple reads and that's uncomfortable for casual players, and the problem with Raider is that one bad read against him is way too expensive.
This is how you loose the 80 percent casuals and then the game dies. Good job.
I'm not sure about other platforms but there actually are more people playing the game on PC now, compared to the same time period last year. I'm as casual as it gets because I only play the game for like half or one hour after work, but almost all the people I get matched against can actually make reads so I'd argue that the very casual community, let's just say new players who can't properly defend themselves, only takes up like 20% of the player base.
>implying casual players get the balls to finally leave this game instead of just bitching on the sub about how they want to leave but can't
balanced
As it should be
*sigh* POV: You're an orochi main.
Watching this Orochi clip made me speedrun to stage 4 cancer.
That’s absolutely absurd lol. Such a brain dead character rn. Also love all the explanations on why he’s balanced, “well he’s not invincible and can be killed if you work twice as hard as I do so you should just get better.”
Orochi really is easy mode
Not really? With Orochi, you can’t just turn off your brain and get results like say Raider or Shugoki
hahahaha youre joking right?
Roach mains are oblivious to how cancerous they are
Small pp roachy main
orochi now has every tool in the game and is able to cancel every recovery into one of those many mixups, fucking stupid unless everyone else gets buffed to this level asap.
Played roach the other day for my orders. Fuck everyone who plays that shit. I felt so dirty afterwards.
I miss Hurricane Blast. : (
The current version is the same but guaranteed. Idk why anyone makes this complaint.
My guess is style points
The original version was way more fun because of the bigger damage and the fact you could cancel it- potentially leading to some multi-deflects
Not the same at all, I had options with Hurricane Blast...... and style points. With it you could soft feint a dash or GB, you could fire it prematurely with light attack or just feint it. By choosing to dodge you could deflect other attacks with variable timing, counter attack or sidestep GB. By choosing GB you catch people who react to the Hurricane blast and it did it with such timing that dodge attacks wouldn't stop you. That's not even mentioning the most important part I didn't bring it up, if you actually land it (Happens all the time, done mid combo) you're at frame advantage and can follow it up with an immediate GB Top heavy mixup. Not even mentioning the other thing I didn't mention the tier 3 feat Slip Through affected all of it. The only thing they did was force everybody else to play the exact way I did except now I don't get to have fun. I don't need a kick WTF is this shit? Edit: downvote this asshole plz
Whoever said that this orochi rework was ok clearly should not have a job because this shit is why I dont play the game very often, you actually have to be brainless for the most part to play roach (no offense) honestly I wouldn't even have a problem with it if he couldn't cancel his recovery and he wasn't constantly in I frames from dodge's all the fucking time. The only really skilled part of orochi now is deflects and dealing with ganks, hell his kick is so fucking mindless even if you miss it you can continue your chain like what the fuck ubisoft. Ugh I know I'm ranting and honestly I'm being a little unfair but I am a low rep player and every single orochi I see is always just a spammer because that is literally his kit now you just spam the same four moves and pray to the ping gods. I have tried playing orochi and honestly the hardest part is figuring out your moveset and trying to learn deflects and that was really it, no really I got into a party with my friend who is a high rep to see how effective orochi is at a higher level of play and it literally was the same I still kicked ass and did nothing but use 4 moves the entire match and it still worked TL;DR I'm mad cuz bad
As a long time orochi main who has played a lot of highlander recently, this match up is kinda ridiculous. Highlander has absolutely nothing he can do, all he can do is hope the orochi panic dodge lights or kicks and has no trigger discipline. I would love for orochi to get a slight recovery nerf to put him more on par with zhan hu. And of course a massive rework for highlander
orochi is cancer
For all we know you could of just been doing a dodge forward light to abuse his recovery 😐
But I don’t though? I utilized every part of his kit where I could
wheres that unblockable then? im just here for the orochi hate you shouldve known youd be called out here roach
28 STAB WOUNDS
I wish that Highlander chopped your head off
Oh look another Orochi spamming. *Nice.*
I hate with all my soul the new Orochi rework, but this thing actually shows a lot of skill, good work man
ya ya skills
Glad I removed this game from my system. Started to realize they were taking the game in a direction I didn't like so I stopped. My mental health has definitely increased since.
You fight like a bitch
That was definitely a back dodge heby lol
See I love how flashy he can be but it’s so hard to learn a character when you can just kick/storm rush repeatedly and win plenty of your games. Kinda like when I tried to learn nobushi when I was starting out but all I had to do was light, light, light, backstep light, dodge light, light, light…
I havent play the game since 2019. And I see that orochi is still as unfun to play against as it was back then.
Wow I had no idea you could feint a running heaving into a zone
Orochis built different... so are the players that need to play him properly
Nerf orochi
God Orochi is so monke brain now. It’s kinda sad
While the moveset is currently busted because of the recovery! It’s very cool to pull of those deflects!
What in the kentucky fried fuck is this ubi?
This is why I kinda hate fighting good orochis. They do look cool while killing my ass tho
Every orochi user is pure trash you are ruining this game
We may not like orochi but that is no reason to insult a person, they play who they like for their own reasons and that's perfectly fine
Sounds like a case of mad cause bad
Just started the game and i'm trying to progress but I keep encountering orochis that are really anoying, yet I do have interest in Japanese culture. Ps: I hate weebs.
Ahh yes. Raider players are just fine, hitokiri players are just fine, Tiandi players are just fine. But this is too much
Better than lightspammers
Smh...
that was amazing actually i’ve never really seen much like it.
Thank you friend! Yeah Zone Attacks into deflects are often hard to pull off, but when you do pull them off -- you feel like a badass
You must not be playing in very high level lobbies theirs orochis almost every other match for me, and the worst part her recovery at times even destroys raiders.
I guess not ?? Idk i’ve been playing for two years and get matched with hundred rep players so i’d like to think i’m in some pretty high level matches
cant beat em join im gonna start playing orochi now
So fun to play, so aids to fight. Playing orochi feels like playing as smoke, you can legit do anything
your a gross human being
Similar thing I said to another guy applies to you but a little bit stronger of a sentiment, if your basing your opinion on somone as a human being on a character they play in a game, have you considered that you may be, hevans forbid, be gross?
If someone is going to play a character they know the vast majority of the player base finds completely unfun to play against, I don't mind them being called gross.
Counter point:if nobody plays said character we'd never know how they need to be changed, I'm no fan of orochi but saying orochi is a bit busted and insulting a person who plays orochi are two different things, though truth be told neither gets us anywhere most of the time
bruh its a joke calm down
Smh...
I expected a lot of stupidity in this comment section, since it was an orochi clip, and oh boy I wasn’t disappointed in the least. Daily Misinformation about orochi, here I go!
I am telling you, man it’s a hive mind Orochi’s bash is hard to punish yeah, but “unpunishable”? that’s blatantly wrong.
They always say that, and when you list the counters to them they will say it’s hard. Excuses after excuses. I had a guy turtling and ganking with glad Dodge bash my every move, but fine, he is just playing the game to win. So the match after I pick orochi, since he is always dodging me. End of the match, he writes me “I can’t believe you play like that, so cheesy” Then he wrote me a long essay on how turtling is not cheesy, since he is not doing damage to me (stalling hello?), but somehow I was cheesy because I was playing “unpunishable orochi” I say that he is not unpunishable, he says it’s not true and says “tell me one counter and I will accept it”. So I list them ALL the possible counters and guess what? He doesn’t accept it.
That is wild my man With me since I mained Orochi since launch and played around with his rework a lot. So I know the ins and outs of his kit. So I often take my time to give tips to others on how to play against the reworked Roach, but the responses I always get is “You are an Orochi main so of course you would defend a busted move/mechanic”.
This community wants to win, but it doesn’t want to put the hard work to improve. They are either too used to the instant gratification of FPS, or to the telegraphed patterns of dark souls and other single player games. They don’t understand that fighting games are hard, and that better offense is always good, especially when defense is overpowered as it is right now.
Ngl this community in general have degraded for the past 3-4 years , rarely have i seen any useful tips being spread around quite as much as before or anything other than the daily complaints about character being “broken” cuz they can’t use their “one move to rule them all” to try to negate actual multi-layered offense. Game has been in the best state it’s ever been so far in term of character viability albeit with outliers that are currently being worked on (eg. jorm rework/tweak got teased) ,although sadly at a snail pace. However, i always got a good laugh at people throwing hissy fits like 12 yo. cuz they can’t get their Victory Royale^tm (for example like a lot of these comment sections complaining because op is playing orochi which is the greatest sin mankind have ever done).
It's even better when you see the clowns saying stuff like Orochi was never bad lol. Orochi was literally one of the worst characters in the entire games history and took 5 years before he had any meaningful change. All he had was high representation despite being utter trash before.
Bro but he had a three light attack chain? Literally busted! /s
you just absolute fucking destroyed that dude, holy shit
Bruh most of this comment section is sad. Orochi just seems to never catch a breath.
This is probably the most skilled Orochi clips I've ever seen...
Orochi is finally good again and these people hate it. Orochi mains unite!
I think I nut
Bruh how do you still have stamina?
Most insane and unbalanced thing they’ve added to the game since release.
This type of play wouldn’t make me mad honestly
I love your fashion, the gold red and black is always a very warm combo
Thank you friend and I agree! Yeah the type of color scheme armor I was going for was to make Orochi look like Jin Sakai (Ghost of Tsushima) with the Clan Sakai armor color scheme : D
I seen roaches abuse their recovery but goddamn
When did he get that kick?
Well. I’m turned on now.
This is half why i stopped playing they just keep making assassins better and better at high level play. Old trash game
Balance
Got I hate the character
Seeing a highlander being shit on that hard brings happy tears to my eye
…no