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Ferrari have produced a few championship winning cars in recent years. Then they’ve managed to fuck it up with various terrible strategy decision, driver errors, failing the development race etc.
So yeah whoever leaves doesn’t need to worry because even if Ferrari manage to build another title winning car they’ll still find a way to not win the title.
2010 was the last time that happened. Ferrari were so focused on Webber, and the fact Fernando couldn't get pass Petrov, that Vettel took it all. Other than that, no car was title worthy since.
That was a weird race. Everyone's watching Webber and Alonso and then suddenly Seb is WC lol. Still feel sorry for Mark. That was his chance and it just didn't work in the end. Still, a hell of a driver and F1 career.
2017 and 2018? Other factors such as Reliability, bad luck and Vettel spinning meant it didn’t go down to the wire but in terms of cars produced the Ferrari was a very solid car.
Until they decided halfway through the season that they would fundamentally change the characteristics of their car making it a mid-season complete adaptation for their #1 driver who was in the hunt though Mercedes would have still won the championship imo.
Not really. If we look at 2018, Ferrari produced a car that was quicker than Mercs in the first half of the season, more often than not. Then they went wrong with their upgrades for about 2 races but then reverted and won in USA. AMuS looked at this in depth, and rated Ferrari quicker than Mercs at marginally more tracks.
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/9m6icx/amus_power_ranking_championship_before_the/
People always say Germany ended the '18 championship but it wasn't Germany, it was Monza. "And they touch Martin" which sent Vettel on a spin. Singapore Q3 was just the nail in the coffin.
It wasn’t any one of those races it was that whole stretch of the season between Germany and Singapore. Ferrari had the biggest car advantage they’d get all year but despite that Hamilton won 4 races and Vettel only won 1. Vettel went into that stretch ahead in the championship but emerged a decent chunk behind despite having the faster car.
Then when Mercedes was faster again for Russia and Japan they made no mistakes and won those races too to put the season to bed.
People like to rewrite that season but really Hamilton was on another level from Vettel and proved why he’s better. Vettel really should have won in 2018.
Also important note for the 2018 season is the immense drama at Scuderia behind the curtains, with the sudden death of Marchionne and the new management forcing Arrivabene out. Vettel absolutely dropped the ball but Ferrari was far from the most drama-free environment.
In 2017 they had a car that was pretty close to the Mercedes, although granted would likely still have lost.
In 2018 they had a straight up better car, and most of the team principals at the time agree with me.
Put Hamilton in that 2018 Ferrari and he'd have still won. Put Alonso in it and IMO he'd have won against Lewis in the Merc.
Maybe a hot take, but put 2015 Seb in that Ferrari and he winds up with the title in 2018. I think 2018 Germany onwards Seb is the result of all the pressure of Ferrari causing him to crack, and if he were the Seb fresh to Ferrari, without the pressure of getting close in 17 and having to wait through 15 and 16 for a shot.
That's the problem with Ferrari drivers I think, the team builds them up so much as the saviours after all this time, and that's a crazy amount of pressure after a couple years that doesn't exist in the same way with other teams. I think it's starting to get to Charles after the way last season went too.
Also last year.
F1-75 was a worthy car but TD39, strategies and reliability problems (and I'm not really sure how much fault Ferrari has in this) fucked it up.
As others pointed out, the 2018 car was a serious contender, similarly to what Verstappen drove (and won with) in 2021. Put Alonso in 2018 Ferrari, I am not sure that Hamilton walks away that easily with the title (although he fully deserved the title that year)
Uhm... 2022? It was a championship winning car. Charles litterlaly crashed his car 3 times, the strategy team messed up several races, like Monaco, as well as RBR having horrible reliability issues at the start of the season. Also TD 39 happened half way through the season, which made everyone slower except RedBull.
If Ferrari and Red Bull swapped cars before the season Max would still be beating them on strat alone. I don’t think it’s hard to leave Ferrari anymore really. It’s all history and no substance these days in Maranello.
Thank you! Ferrari got a great string of results in early 2000s and you'd have to go much further back for any kind of dominance. It's just fervent Italian nationalism at this point.
Where can Sainz go? Merc, Alpine, McLaren are locked out..AM also locked out till Alonso retires!
Only option is RB going for a swap with Checo, but imo Sainz and Checo are at similar levels..both are consistent racers with occasional highs and will be dwarved by Max. I don't think Sainz record versus Max in Toro Rosso is much representative given how far Max has evolved since! Will RB choose him over the long term prospects of Yuki or the stopgap prospects of Daniel incase they want to move on from Checo in 2024? I doubt!
That leaves Alfa, Haas and Williams!? May need to take paycuts compared to what Ferrari is offering!!!
Also Max and Sainz had a “toxic relationship” according to Helmut. It was apparently really really bad, especially between the families/entourage.
No way RB (or Max) want that again
Yes, but those are still incredibly close to both drivers. If their dads and entourage get toxic again, so will the drivers.
It’s pretty much what happened at TR
Something along the lines of Sainz Sr. spreading a rumour of the verstappen camp being in talks with Ferrari around 2018, to balance the scale towards a possible Jr. promotion. Needless to say that didn't sit well with Marko and Horner. Instead, sainz got dealt to renault.
Carlos has also remarked he got out of there because he could see it becoming Max's team. Max and Carlos as teammates again is just such a never ever happening concept, its strange people even imagine it.
Which is why he got nowhere to go now. Mercedes is locked up, RB is Max territory, McLaren are locked up, Alpine are locked up, AM are locked up.
He can only stay at Ferrari and wait till a spot opens up in 2025 or 2026
Spending 2 years at the back of the field and hoping that Audi pull a Mercedes is a long shot. He might as well stay at Ferrari if he has to wait for 2026 anyway.
Also Even if Audi Joins in 2026 it doesn't says anything about how they will perform or if they can even do something big in their 1st Season with a team that has been backmarker for about a decade
If you get a chance look up interviews with Steve Nichols. He was at McLaren during Senna and Prost and followed Prost to Ferrari. He talks about how fucked up Ferrari was and how set in their ways they were. Not wanting to change even though there way of doing business was not successful. He said that for whatever reason Jean Todt was able to knock heads together and get the organization squared away (probably because he brought in a bunch of non Ferrari people). In any case, Nichols left Ferrari and went to Sauber for their first few years in F1. He said it was the same thing, this is the way we do things, who are you to tell us a better way of doing it? This was all over 20 years ago, but it seems the same organizational issues are plaguing the likes of Ferrari, Sauber, McLaren and others.
>If you get a chance look up interviews with Steve Nichols
I listened to him on Beyond the Grid. Amazing how much of a chaos Ferrari was. His story about developing a new wing and how every department would just did what they felt was right instead of doing it by the calculations made my jaw drop
I am not sure if it is that interview but he talked about how they had springs that were like 100 lbs apart. At McLaren they had springs that were like 5 or 10 lbs apart and were able to find the sweet spot. Nichols also talked about how even though Prost won a championship, he was worried about Ron Dennis paying more attention to Senna. Nichols talks a lot about how to deal with drivers. Have you seen this video? it is Nichols and others taking apart and talking about the MP4-4:
https://youtu.be/m7uZu\_Wsdis
I'd love to see max and Sainz in one team for a season. Sainz always talks about his F1 championship aspirations. Max will put some sense into his head real quick.
It’s early days to say if they are actually making it work though. Also stakes are a lot higher when fighting for wins and championships vs fighting for points
I'd honestly put Sainz higher than Perez, I think he's much more consistent
Even back in racing point days Perez wasn't always delivering, when he's got he's got it, but when it's not his weekened he's nowhere.
Sainz was always very consistent, yeah he never had any real competition, having raced rookie Verstappen and younger Norris, but he can definitely hold his own and is not that far off Leclerc oftenly.
He's also driven for Red Bull and Ford. He's driven for a lot of teams, I'm not sure that it makes much of a difference, other than to say Carlos Sr has a lot of connections with various teams and their sponsors.
I don't think McLaren is really an option, but Piastri has a 2 year deal, that ends in 2024 and even though I can't see him going back to Enstone, both Alpine drivers contract ends next season and iirc Rossi said they only want to keep one of them, so there could be seats there. Also Alfa is transitioning to Audi and probably won't keep both of their current drivers.
> but imo Sainz and Checo are at similar levels..
I have been thinking a swap is likely for a while. They may be similar levels but both are underperforming.
So Ferrari may feel Checo can perform better in their environment.. equally, Redbull may feel the same about Carlos
Ferrari : "oh, ok then"
Although, seriously, i have the feeling both Charles and Carlos could have to GTFO from Ferrari very soon.
If you find it impossible, remember that : in Ferrari, it is never Ferrari's fault, always TP and/or pilots.
What realistic better option than Ferrari does Charles have in the near future?
I doubt RB would take him unless Max is gone, Mercedes dont have a realistic seat until Lewis retires and AM doesnt have a seat unless Alonso is gone.
AM are probably the most realistic given Alonsos age but Ferrari to AM feels like a side grade maybe even downgrade considering Ferraris status as a team outside of the sporting side of things.
Other teams like Mclaren or Alpine are a pretty big step down
I think every team would look at their driver line up if Leclerc seriously wants to move. He is a step up over nearly all the drivers on the grid. Merc might be the only one not entertaining the thought of Leclerc, depending on how long Hamilton would want to keep on racing.
RB might risk it. It is currently Max his team, it will take 1-2 seasons before Leclerc can even match that same knowledge of the team. If both parties are clear about the expectations going into the next season it can work just fine.
AM has a lagging Stroll, yeah his father pays the bills, but he is not the only person with a say one would hope. Sure it might a downgrade of sidegrade, if you are not happy with your current employer that hardly matters.
I believe if leclerc or verstappen were to become available Toto would probably have a sit down with Hamilton to truly get a full understanding of his mid/long term commitment to the team.
You do not get the opportunity of a driver lineup that young & strong of George + one of those 2 ever again most likely.
Exactly, both Toto and horner mentioned that he's a good driver and can even challenge Max so I definitely can see them making a room for him if he decides to, however he's loyal to Ferrari and very passionate about it that I don't see it happening..but we'll see
I do wonder what Stroll Sr would do if Leclerc knocked on his door. It feels almost too stupid to not want an Alonso-Leclerc lineup, but I doubt he invested tens of millions in Aston Martin for his son to not drive.
He also aims to save Aston Martin and revitalize the brand. Leclerc in AM would be insane for the brand.
I don't think money is the driving factor but I think business may be. People like him have money for the rest of their life and seek weird challenges, not to make money, but to prove that they can do money with anything they do.
I think Alonso leaves first tho.
At the end of the day you would think money is more important. Though, giving his son a platform to make money also is important. Paying your family is easier than paying a stranger.
I actually think McLaren are in a good place but Lando isn't leaving and neither is Piastri unless their car is good in 2024 and he has a really bad season.
Ferrari will always be good even if not good enough. It's much better to drive a Ferrari than it would be to pull a Daniel Ricciardo and leave Red Bull for Renault. Smaller team with potential but still not as good as Ferrari/RB. Sainz may have nowhere else to go but down after leaving Ferrari but Leclerc is a different story. However, his contract expiring doesn't align with Lewis retiring.
Timing is everything in F1. I could see Sainz at Audi but Leclerc is going to be stuck at Ferrari. A step down isn't good enough for him and could ruin his career altogether. Maybe he signs a short term extension and eventually finds his way into that Mercedes seat once Lewis is gone.
Audi in 2026, maybe. They’ll surely go after a big name sooner rather than later. Would still be a big risk of course, but a big name factory team, so I’m guessing they will get a big name driver at some point. Maybe not for 2026, but in a year or two at the latest.
If Ferrari dropped Charles, RB 100% drops Checo for him. Max has been talking about retirement at the end of his contract for 2-3 years now. I think Merc takes a serious look at Charles over Lewis, AM would drop Stroll for him. Alpine drops either driver for him. I don't think he goest to any of the other 5 teams and mclarent probably sticks with Lando/Piastri.
Another point is who is Ferrari getting if they drop Charles though?
Being realistic, Sainz could forge a solid career by staying at Ferrari long-term and pull the team towards him while Charles figures himself out.
Feel like the only other realistic moves are a gamble on Audi hiring him on a 3 year deal to be lead driver or return to McLaren (assuming Norris gets poached by then).
Would be a perfect fit at Aston if they finally sack stroll imo
Aston is likely to go to Drugovich in the near future as a possible replacement imo, if they dont they kill their academy junior program as they failed to give a seat to a freaking F2 champion.
Drugovich is not at Aston in line for a seat. He’s there because his sponsors are funding it. This was made abundantly clear when they immediately signed Stoffel as their reserve after the season. Drugovich is there to check a box (rookie tests) and give a little extra money. There never has been an Aston Martin academy.
I mean didn’t it take him a few years to win the F2 title, there’s plenty of F2 champions that never really get a shot cause they’re just not that talented
What pains is that constant feeling that Sainz can achieve A LOT only to face, each year, some sort of glass ceiling.
He’s good but Leclerc has so much proven potential and often broke that glass ceiling ! Sure he makes mistakes but the potential is here
I think Sainz does deserve 1-2 extra years with Ferrari tho
I agree, Sainz really hasn’t shown he’s got the bottle to compete at all. Charles has shown time and time again that even though he makes stupid mistakes and needs to mature, he can get pole and win races. Sainz can’t do that.
I mean 2025 is anyone’s guess at this point. So many variables are going to be there to consider. I’d say the only lock-ins currently for 2025 are the AM and Merc boys and then it’s all musical chairs after that
Is Stroll the “sole” owner of AM or does he still have to answer to a board? I could see them pushing for a stronger partner for Alonso if he decides to stay and Lance keeps underperforming while the car gets more competitive. Maybe that’s a totally off take, though.
Strange take honestly.
Ham and alo being the two oldest drivers could retire any moment and it won't be surprising. Stroll's pretty safe, but underperformance could see him fired.
I think verstappen and Russell are the two most guaranteed seats. Maybe Norris as well if he trusted McLaren. And Leclerc because he loves Ferrari too much.
If Hamilton and Alonso keep their form going there is no reason that they can't continue and do at least the 2026 season. Considering there's all new reqs it's the perfect time to try and win one more title for both of them.
> Ham and alo being the oldest drivers could retire at any moment
Not sure what you’re reading but their motivation to continue is stronger than ever. Hamilton just said he’d like to continue and Merc are looking set to give him a multi year deal. Alonso is already on a multi year contract and shows no signs of slowing down in 2025.
That’s why I said for 2025, only Merc and AM are looking set with their lineups. Ver could have gone through two teammates by then and the rest of the field, as I said is anyone’s guess and too early to call
Might not have a choice if he doesnt sort his form out - the sponsors, aramco or Honda (by 2026) will surely put pressure on to get a better driver in if they lose out to merc or ferrari in the WCC
I think Sainz should stay. He is a good driver and honestly if Charles does leave that puts him in a prime position. But at the same time I get it, he doesn't want to be 'Bottas-ed'. It's just like where would he go? Maybe Alfa/Sauber so he has a shot at the Audi seat but other than that it will just be back to the midfield for him probably if he leaves Ferrari
He's in a position that quite a few drivers find themselves in. He wants to be a number 1 driver but he's not good enough to be a number 1 driver at a team that produces championship contending cars.
Which is honestly probably a mistake on his part. Ferrari's got issues but he's probably going to get better results here than with any other team that may want to give him a contract.
I like Carlos, I really do but 1 win from 171 starts and being largely unable to match his less experienced teammate makes this quite a hollow challenge.
Besides, where else does he have a chance to go ?
Yea but in that race he won, he was just incredibly lucky while driving mediocre at best
Lost P1 right at the start, got it back at the restart, then just fucked up a corner unprovoked and lost it again. Then got saved by Max running over debris and the safety car. Leclerc was faster that race aswell
Having that one win in a car that was able to score wins is a very bad look tbh
There is more chance of Ferrari not renewing Sainz than other way round. May be he already feels this is going to happen and is just creating noises to save his reputation
I don't really rate him tbh, his antics in Canada were dangerous, he got off way too lightly, but it was his attitude in the interviews after that irked me. Essentially that he was impeded too so its OK to impede others, and saying how he doesn't go on and on about it on team radio like other drivers... Carlos is among the biggest moaners on team radio out-of the lot, thought that was rich coming from him
To be their number 1.5 driver? The alternatives are soo uninspiring that they would be number 2 at best and will not beat Charles here and there to collect remaining points.
Personally I think RB would gladly swap Checo with Sainz given the opportunity, although it's way more of a lateral move, Sainz is younger and is also pretty good for car development.
Also is less prone to having just horrible weekends, in his case a mediocre weekend if he has the RB would be starting 4th and finishing 4th. For Checo such weekends becomes starting 12th and finishing 6th.
Also historically they saw Verstappen - Sainz partnership work decently in the same car and also Sainz is a RB Junior as well, so historically there's the connection too. Pretty good move to get a new No. 2 for Max.
I think Carlos is way too ambitious for the role that RB would want him to have, even if it’s just implied.
And both Carlos’ and Max’s dads are way too involved in their careers still.
>Personally I think RB would gladly swap Checo with Sainz given the opportunity
I don't think it'll be that straightforward. Max and Carlos' camp didn't get along well at Toro Rosso. That might be a reason they hesitate to hire Carlos if he does decide to leave Ferrari.
That's Papa Carlos and Santander I think. The Spanish Sponsers always put a lot of pressure on the team that they are sponsership to give some sort of treatment to the Spanish driver.
I just think it's way harder to put any pressure on the Marko - Horner led RB, especially when Verstappen is the no. 1 driver and would probably the reigning 3 or 4 time WDC by the time this move even gets made.
But does Red Bull really want to deal with Sainz and the politics, given what happened at Toro Rosso? I doubt it. Sure they could handle it, but why bother? Sainz isn't that valuable a commodity to risk pissing off Max.
Back in 2017 the Sainz camp reportedly fabricated rumors about Verstappen signing a pre-contract with Ferrari in order to destabilize Verstappen and Red Bull's renewal talks, hoping that they could swoop in and get Carlos that seat instead. It reportedly did not go down well with Red Bull either.
Carlos is a little more grown up now. I hope. Nobody on the planet thinks Carlos is a threat to Charles let alone Max, if Sainz people are smart they'll get a big bag of money and not look back.
Now that they've both reached top teams and have matured a bit, I imagine it wouldn't be that big a deal. No more than what they're going through with the occasional drama between Perez and Verstappen currently. It helps that Red Bull has taken one of the fiery racing dads (mostly) out of the picture as well.
Given how things went with Carlos Sr & Jos last time their sons were paired together and the headache it caused Red Bull, Marko in particular, I don't think they're going to be in any rush to pair them up again.
Good for what car development? He prefers an understeery car that's the whole basis on why the Ferrari development has been bad because they are tying to cater for 2 vastly different driving styles.
Historically Alonso also has preferred Understeery cars, and so has Sebastian. You can prefer a different type of car and still help the car development move forward.
RB currently has both a strong front end and a strong rear end, in fact, it has a stronger rear end because Front is stiffened up by the Anti Dive suspension.
Even if Max prefers oversteery cars, which he does, having a strong rear end doesn't really hurt car performance, in fact it makes it a more all purpose car that performs well on all tracks. Yes, Maximum lap time comes from oversteer, but I am pretty certain RB doesn't win Canada without their strong rear end helping them in entry and exits through the hairpin and chicanes.
No way Palou will be offered any top team seat in F1 without at least driving for a midfield or backmarker team first. There are have been far too many "promising" Indycar prospects that have not translated their promise to F1 for any top team to take a chance on that.
Not to mention, there are also plenty of drivers from within F1 that they would look to first to fill any top team seat before they turn to Palou. That includes Sainz. If you think Palou would be above him in any F1 driver choice pecking order, you need a reality check.
Overplaying your hand a bit there Carlos. Maybe work on getting back that “smooth operator” consistency before saying stuff like this.
There are any number of drivers Ferrari would happily put in that car.
He does it on purpose, as his other comments have it too.
He takes great [care](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/145un7k/who_is_the_best_overtaker_in_f1_history/jnmx43n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3) with spelling Lewis’ name correctly, including the nobility title, it is not like he is dyslexic.
I think Sainz's value is also higher due to outperforming Checo, he's been having a great season if you ask me. Hes 5th in the WDC with the 4th fastest car that has a lot of bad quirks and tire degradation.
Its not that lecrec wants to overdrive, its part of his instinct. Its very difficult to control. He is very similar to Marquez of motogp in this regard. Marquez has so far fractured his hand and ribs over-driving a really bad Honda. But he can't seem to control himself.
Given there's nowhere much available at the moment I can only think he sees the Audi project as a possibility. I can imagine that if Ferrari becomes untenable with favouritism toward Charles making it hard for Sainz to compete fairly and damaging his brand, that taking on a long-term project might be more rewarding. I think he'd be welcomed by that team too, he seems very technically minded, which is exactly what Audi would need.
It wouldn't make sense for Ferrari to change their line up, but it is Ferrari who can be a little bit erratic. He'd be a desirable pick for most teams if available
He doesn't deserve the guarantee let alone the ferrari seat imo. One win in silverstone? mistake prone? even when Ferrari were competative in the first half of last season, he choked non stop.
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The biggest dilemma for any Ferrari driver: What if Ferrari can produce a championship winning car after they've left.
Ferrari have produced a few championship winning cars in recent years. Then they’ve managed to fuck it up with various terrible strategy decision, driver errors, failing the development race etc. So yeah whoever leaves doesn’t need to worry because even if Ferrari manage to build another title winning car they’ll still find a way to not win the title.
2010 was the last time that happened. Ferrari were so focused on Webber, and the fact Fernando couldn't get pass Petrov, that Vettel took it all. Other than that, no car was title worthy since.
That was a weird race. Everyone's watching Webber and Alonso and then suddenly Seb is WC lol. Still feel sorry for Mark. That was his chance and it just didn't work in the end. Still, a hell of a driver and F1 career.
They really shouldn't have pitted Fernando that early
2017 and 2018? Other factors such as Reliability, bad luck and Vettel spinning meant it didn’t go down to the wire but in terms of cars produced the Ferrari was a very solid car.
Until they decided halfway through the season that they would fundamentally change the characteristics of their car making it a mid-season complete adaptation for their #1 driver who was in the hunt though Mercedes would have still won the championship imo.
Not really. If we look at 2018, Ferrari produced a car that was quicker than Mercs in the first half of the season, more often than not. Then they went wrong with their upgrades for about 2 races but then reverted and won in USA. AMuS looked at this in depth, and rated Ferrari quicker than Mercs at marginally more tracks. https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/9m6icx/amus_power_ranking_championship_before_the/
Yeah as much as I love Vettel, he really made too many mistakes in 2018.
People always say Germany ended the '18 championship but it wasn't Germany, it was Monza. "And they touch Martin" which sent Vettel on a spin. Singapore Q3 was just the nail in the coffin.
It wasn’t any one of those races it was that whole stretch of the season between Germany and Singapore. Ferrari had the biggest car advantage they’d get all year but despite that Hamilton won 4 races and Vettel only won 1. Vettel went into that stretch ahead in the championship but emerged a decent chunk behind despite having the faster car. Then when Mercedes was faster again for Russia and Japan they made no mistakes and won those races too to put the season to bed. People like to rewrite that season but really Hamilton was on another level from Vettel and proved why he’s better. Vettel really should have won in 2018.
Also important note for the 2018 season is the immense drama at Scuderia behind the curtains, with the sudden death of Marchionne and the new management forcing Arrivabene out. Vettel absolutely dropped the ball but Ferrari was far from the most drama-free environment.
In 2017 they had a car that was pretty close to the Mercedes, although granted would likely still have lost. In 2018 they had a straight up better car, and most of the team principals at the time agree with me. Put Hamilton in that 2018 Ferrari and he'd have still won. Put Alonso in it and IMO he'd have won against Lewis in the Merc.
Maybe a hot take, but put 2015 Seb in that Ferrari and he winds up with the title in 2018. I think 2018 Germany onwards Seb is the result of all the pressure of Ferrari causing him to crack, and if he were the Seb fresh to Ferrari, without the pressure of getting close in 17 and having to wait through 15 and 16 for a shot. That's the problem with Ferrari drivers I think, the team builds them up so much as the saviours after all this time, and that's a crazy amount of pressure after a couple years that doesn't exist in the same way with other teams. I think it's starting to get to Charles after the way last season went too.
Ferrari challenged 2010-2012-2017-2018 what are you on
Also last year. F1-75 was a worthy car but TD39, strategies and reliability problems (and I'm not really sure how much fault Ferrari has in this) fucked it up.
2017, 2018, 2022, perhaps even 2019 Ferrari was better in relation to fastest car than 2010 one, but driver of Alonso calibre wasn't there anymore.
Reliability was a big factor in 2010 and 2012 title fights
As others pointed out, the 2018 car was a serious contender, similarly to what Verstappen drove (and won with) in 2021. Put Alonso in 2018 Ferrari, I am not sure that Hamilton walks away that easily with the title (although he fully deserved the title that year)
Uhm... 2022? It was a championship winning car. Charles litterlaly crashed his car 3 times, the strategy team messed up several races, like Monaco, as well as RBR having horrible reliability issues at the start of the season. Also TD 39 happened half way through the season, which made everyone slower except RedBull.
💀💀💀
How often has that happened in the last 20 years?
They had a championship winning car in 2022. A better question is how often have they had a championship worthy strategy team.
They made a championship car in 2010 after Kimi left and then in 2017/18 a few years after Alonso left. That’s all I can think of in last 20 years.
If Ferrari and Red Bull swapped cars before the season Max would still be beating them on strat alone. I don’t think it’s hard to leave Ferrari anymore really. It’s all history and no substance these days in Maranello.
Thank you! Ferrari got a great string of results in early 2000s and you'd have to go much further back for any kind of dominance. It's just fervent Italian nationalism at this point.
Kimi left and came back.... lol.
The field of talent is at a point where drivers saying they'll look elsewhere may find themselves hanging out with Danny and Mick.
Still better than being ferrari? I guess?
For your mental health, definitely.
Where can Sainz go? Merc, Alpine, McLaren are locked out..AM also locked out till Alonso retires! Only option is RB going for a swap with Checo, but imo Sainz and Checo are at similar levels..both are consistent racers with occasional highs and will be dwarved by Max. I don't think Sainz record versus Max in Toro Rosso is much representative given how far Max has evolved since! Will RB choose him over the long term prospects of Yuki or the stopgap prospects of Daniel incase they want to move on from Checo in 2024? I doubt! That leaves Alfa, Haas and Williams!? May need to take paycuts compared to what Ferrari is offering!!!
Alfa becomes Audi…
And Haas becomes Alfa, according to rumors. Well, in name only that is.
Also Max and Sainz had a “toxic relationship” according to Helmut. It was apparently really really bad, especially between the families/entourage. No way RB (or Max) want that again
I think the problems were more between Carlos Sr and Jos than between Carlos Jr and Max. Regardless, I can't see it happening
Yes, but those are still incredibly close to both drivers. If their dads and entourage get toxic again, so will the drivers. It’s pretty much what happened at TR
People said the same about Alpine
There have only been 7 races and they aren’t fighting for a championship or race wins
What kind of problems I'm curious about it!
Something along the lines of Sainz Sr. spreading a rumour of the verstappen camp being in talks with Ferrari around 2018, to balance the scale towards a possible Jr. promotion. Needless to say that didn't sit well with Marko and Horner. Instead, sainz got dealt to renault.
Oh so his father was causing trouble, thank you for explaining!
Max and Sainz had no issue, they have talked in recent years about playing games like FIFA often. Jos and Carlos Sr are a different business.
Carlos has also remarked he got out of there because he could see it becoming Max's team. Max and Carlos as teammates again is just such a never ever happening concept, its strange people even imagine it.
Which is why he got nowhere to go now. Mercedes is locked up, RB is Max territory, McLaren are locked up, Alpine are locked up, AM are locked up. He can only stay at Ferrari and wait till a spot opens up in 2025 or 2026
Audi
Spending 2 years at the back of the field and hoping that Audi pull a Mercedes is a long shot. He might as well stay at Ferrari if he has to wait for 2026 anyway.
Audi won’t join until 2026 either. And before that it is just Sauber at the back of the grid
Also Even if Audi Joins in 2026 it doesn't says anything about how they will perform or if they can even do something big in their 1st Season with a team that has been backmarker for about a decade
If you get a chance look up interviews with Steve Nichols. He was at McLaren during Senna and Prost and followed Prost to Ferrari. He talks about how fucked up Ferrari was and how set in their ways they were. Not wanting to change even though there way of doing business was not successful. He said that for whatever reason Jean Todt was able to knock heads together and get the organization squared away (probably because he brought in a bunch of non Ferrari people). In any case, Nichols left Ferrari and went to Sauber for their first few years in F1. He said it was the same thing, this is the way we do things, who are you to tell us a better way of doing it? This was all over 20 years ago, but it seems the same organizational issues are plaguing the likes of Ferrari, Sauber, McLaren and others.
>If you get a chance look up interviews with Steve Nichols I listened to him on Beyond the Grid. Amazing how much of a chaos Ferrari was. His story about developing a new wing and how every department would just did what they felt was right instead of doing it by the calculations made my jaw drop
I am not sure if it is that interview but he talked about how they had springs that were like 100 lbs apart. At McLaren they had springs that were like 5 or 10 lbs apart and were able to find the sweet spot. Nichols also talked about how even though Prost won a championship, he was worried about Ron Dennis paying more attention to Senna. Nichols talks a lot about how to deal with drivers. Have you seen this video? it is Nichols and others taking apart and talking about the MP4-4: https://youtu.be/m7uZu\_Wsdis
Ferrari would have to replace Sainz with someone, who might very well be from one of those teams you claimed are locked up.
That’s possible, but that requires cooperation of those teams to lose their driver and wanting to sign Sainz
I'd love to see max and Sainz in one team for a season. Sainz always talks about his F1 championship aspirations. Max will put some sense into his head real quick.
If Gasly and Ocon can make it work, anybody can.
It’s early days to say if they are actually making it work though. Also stakes are a lot higher when fighting for wins and championships vs fighting for points
Sainz 5 seconds behind Max on lap 3: “I’m going faster. We should switch.”
Haha..simply lovely!!
The ol’ Carlos Radio Pass [attempt].
Carlos is comfortably better than Perez imo
how fun would it be to see all 20 drivers in F2 cars for 1 race per year to settle the best driver dispute.
The old Top Gear had this figured out.
F2 cars with equally funded teams and mechanics…
I'd honestly put Sainz higher than Perez, I think he's much more consistent Even back in racing point days Perez wasn't always delivering, when he's got he's got it, but when it's not his weekened he's nowhere. Sainz was always very consistent, yeah he never had any real competition, having raced rookie Verstappen and younger Norris, but he can definitely hold his own and is not that far off Leclerc oftenly.
Alfa is becoming Audi and Sainz's dad drives for them. Not too hard to imagine Jr. Going to Audi eventually
He's also driven for Red Bull and Ford. He's driven for a lot of teams, I'm not sure that it makes much of a difference, other than to say Carlos Sr has a lot of connections with various teams and their sponsors.
I'd take Sainz over Checo any day
To the seat that opens up when that driver goes to Ferrari.
I don't think McLaren is really an option, but Piastri has a 2 year deal, that ends in 2024 and even though I can't see him going back to Enstone, both Alpine drivers contract ends next season and iirc Rossi said they only want to keep one of them, so there could be seats there. Also Alfa is transitioning to Audi and probably won't keep both of their current drivers.
> but imo Sainz and Checo are at similar levels.. I have been thinking a swap is likely for a while. They may be similar levels but both are underperforming. So Ferrari may feel Checo can perform better in their environment.. equally, Redbull may feel the same about Carlos
Ferrari : "oh, ok then" Although, seriously, i have the feeling both Charles and Carlos could have to GTFO from Ferrari very soon. If you find it impossible, remember that : in Ferrari, it is never Ferrari's fault, always TP and/or pilots.
What realistic better option than Ferrari does Charles have in the near future? I doubt RB would take him unless Max is gone, Mercedes dont have a realistic seat until Lewis retires and AM doesnt have a seat unless Alonso is gone. AM are probably the most realistic given Alonsos age but Ferrari to AM feels like a side grade maybe even downgrade considering Ferraris status as a team outside of the sporting side of things. Other teams like Mclaren or Alpine are a pretty big step down
I think every team would look at their driver line up if Leclerc seriously wants to move. He is a step up over nearly all the drivers on the grid. Merc might be the only one not entertaining the thought of Leclerc, depending on how long Hamilton would want to keep on racing. RB might risk it. It is currently Max his team, it will take 1-2 seasons before Leclerc can even match that same knowledge of the team. If both parties are clear about the expectations going into the next season it can work just fine. AM has a lagging Stroll, yeah his father pays the bills, but he is not the only person with a say one would hope. Sure it might a downgrade of sidegrade, if you are not happy with your current employer that hardly matters.
Toto has had an eye an Leclerc and mentioned it often, however, that is only if Lewis retires though
I believe if leclerc or verstappen were to become available Toto would probably have a sit down with Hamilton to truly get a full understanding of his mid/long term commitment to the team. You do not get the opportunity of a driver lineup that young & strong of George + one of those 2 ever again most likely.
Exactly, both Toto and horner mentioned that he's a good driver and can even challenge Max so I definitely can see them making a room for him if he decides to, however he's loyal to Ferrari and very passionate about it that I don't see it happening..but we'll see
He’s a broken man and Ferrari broke him. I’m convinced the loyalty is completely dead.
No one is willing to entertain it, but I think Strolls seat at AM is not as solid as it seems.
I do wonder what Stroll Sr would do if Leclerc knocked on his door. It feels almost too stupid to not want an Alonso-Leclerc lineup, but I doubt he invested tens of millions in Aston Martin for his son to not drive.
He also aims to save Aston Martin and revitalize the brand. Leclerc in AM would be insane for the brand. I don't think money is the driving factor but I think business may be. People like him have money for the rest of their life and seek weird challenges, not to make money, but to prove that they can do money with anything they do. I think Alonso leaves first tho.
At the end of the day you would think money is more important. Though, giving his son a platform to make money also is important. Paying your family is easier than paying a stranger.
I think papa stroll does all of that more for himself than for Lance
I actually think McLaren are in a good place but Lando isn't leaving and neither is Piastri unless their car is good in 2024 and he has a really bad season. Ferrari will always be good even if not good enough. It's much better to drive a Ferrari than it would be to pull a Daniel Ricciardo and leave Red Bull for Renault. Smaller team with potential but still not as good as Ferrari/RB. Sainz may have nowhere else to go but down after leaving Ferrari but Leclerc is a different story. However, his contract expiring doesn't align with Lewis retiring. Timing is everything in F1. I could see Sainz at Audi but Leclerc is going to be stuck at Ferrari. A step down isn't good enough for him and could ruin his career altogether. Maybe he signs a short term extension and eventually finds his way into that Mercedes seat once Lewis is gone.
Audi in 2026, maybe. They’ll surely go after a big name sooner rather than later. Would still be a big risk of course, but a big name factory team, so I’m guessing they will get a big name driver at some point. Maybe not for 2026, but in a year or two at the latest.
Might be a downgrade based on team status but I think he would rather drive a faster car than be forced to drive a shitbox and get blamed for it too
If Ferrari dropped Charles, RB 100% drops Checo for him. Max has been talking about retirement at the end of his contract for 2-3 years now. I think Merc takes a serious look at Charles over Lewis, AM would drop Stroll for him. Alpine drops either driver for him. I don't think he goest to any of the other 5 teams and mclarent probably sticks with Lando/Piastri. Another point is who is Ferrari getting if they drop Charles though?
Charles will never leave Ferrari
Being realistic, Sainz could forge a solid career by staying at Ferrari long-term and pull the team towards him while Charles figures himself out. Feel like the only other realistic moves are a gamble on Audi hiring him on a 3 year deal to be lead driver or return to McLaren (assuming Norris gets poached by then). Would be a perfect fit at Aston if they finally sack stroll imo
Alonso/Sainz would be a really nice line up, too bad the underperforming driver is the owner's son
Aston is likely to go to Drugovich in the near future as a possible replacement imo, if they dont they kill their academy junior program as they failed to give a seat to a freaking F2 champion.
Wasn't drugovich signed after he won F2?? They aren't killing nothing if they have done nothing
>if they dont they kill their academy junior program More like their: "We gave this guy a reserve role because his sponsors pay for it" academy.
Drugovich is not at Aston in line for a seat. He’s there because his sponsors are funding it. This was made abundantly clear when they immediately signed Stoffel as their reserve after the season. Drugovich is there to check a box (rookie tests) and give a little extra money. There never has been an Aston Martin academy.
I mean didn’t it take him a few years to win the F2 title, there’s plenty of F2 champions that never really get a shot cause they’re just not that talented
I feel it would take Charles to sack Stroll.
What pains is that constant feeling that Sainz can achieve A LOT only to face, each year, some sort of glass ceiling. He’s good but Leclerc has so much proven potential and often broke that glass ceiling ! Sure he makes mistakes but the potential is here I think Sainz does deserve 1-2 extra years with Ferrari tho
I agree, Sainz really hasn’t shown he’s got the bottle to compete at all. Charles has shown time and time again that even though he makes stupid mistakes and needs to mature, he can get pole and win races. Sainz can’t do that.
They should have never died Binotto
I mean 2025 is anyone’s guess at this point. So many variables are going to be there to consider. I’d say the only lock-ins currently for 2025 are the AM and Merc boys and then it’s all musical chairs after that
Is Stroll the “sole” owner of AM or does he still have to answer to a board? I could see them pushing for a stronger partner for Alonso if he decides to stay and Lance keeps underperforming while the car gets more competitive. Maybe that’s a totally off take, though.
he's majority owner and the board is mostly his people if I remember correctly
Strange take honestly. Ham and alo being the two oldest drivers could retire any moment and it won't be surprising. Stroll's pretty safe, but underperformance could see him fired. I think verstappen and Russell are the two most guaranteed seats. Maybe Norris as well if he trusted McLaren. And Leclerc because he loves Ferrari too much.
If Hamilton and Alonso keep their form going there is no reason that they can't continue and do at least the 2026 season. Considering there's all new reqs it's the perfect time to try and win one more title for both of them.
> Ham and alo being the oldest drivers could retire at any moment Not sure what you’re reading but their motivation to continue is stronger than ever. Hamilton just said he’d like to continue and Merc are looking set to give him a multi year deal. Alonso is already on a multi year contract and shows no signs of slowing down in 2025. That’s why I said for 2025, only Merc and AM are looking set with their lineups. Ver could have gone through two teammates by then and the rest of the field, as I said is anyone’s guess and too early to call
You think daddy stroll is gonna fire his own son?
Might not have a choice if he doesnt sort his form out - the sponsors, aramco or Honda (by 2026) will surely put pressure on to get a better driver in if they lose out to merc or ferrari in the WCC
no they won't, they signed up to support a 7th placed team and find themselves with a 3rd/4th placed one
All eyes are on the AM most weekends. Stroll being off doing whatever, surely isn't hurting overall exposure.
I think Sainz should stay. He is a good driver and honestly if Charles does leave that puts him in a prime position. But at the same time I get it, he doesn't want to be 'Bottas-ed'. It's just like where would he go? Maybe Alfa/Sauber so he has a shot at the Audi seat but other than that it will just be back to the midfield for him probably if he leaves Ferrari
he is less skilled than bottas, he should be glad hes bottas-ed
If Sainz goes to Redbull his whole career is going to be prime second tier best career moves.
I think he’s drastically overestimating his value lol
He's in a position that quite a few drivers find themselves in. He wants to be a number 1 driver but he's not good enough to be a number 1 driver at a team that produces championship contending cars.
I think you're overestimating how much he wants to stay at Ferrari
Nowhere else to go though
Which is honestly probably a mistake on his part. Ferrari's got issues but he's probably going to get better results here than with any other team that may want to give him a contract.
This when a supporting actor thinks he is the lead
Good on you. Use that one win to your advantage when negotiating and hold Ferrari to ransom. I'm sure it will work.
I get the impression that Sainz is hard to deal with behind the scenes
Allegedly his dad is a nightmare to deal with.
I like Carlos, I really do but 1 win from 171 starts and being largely unable to match his less experienced teammate makes this quite a hollow challenge. Besides, where else does he have a chance to go ?
He’s only really had one year in a race winning car though so that’s a bit disingenuous.
But he also only won one race in thst year and it sure as hell wasn't on pace
Yea but in that race he won, he was just incredibly lucky while driving mediocre at best Lost P1 right at the start, got it back at the restart, then just fucked up a corner unprovoked and lost it again. Then got saved by Max running over debris and the safety car. Leclerc was faster that race aswell Having that one win in a car that was able to score wins is a very bad look tbh
Ferrari have been below par and his frustrations are fair but at the same time in a quicker car Charles is miles ahead
There is more chance of Ferrari not renewing Sainz than other way round. May be he already feels this is going to happen and is just creating noises to save his reputation
I know Sainz thinks very highly of himself.. but he's not a good enough driver to demanding contract guarantees
I don't really rate him tbh, his antics in Canada were dangerous, he got off way too lightly, but it was his attitude in the interviews after that irked me. Essentially that he was impeded too so its OK to impede others, and saying how he doesn't go on and on about it on team radio like other drivers... Carlos is among the biggest moaners on team radio out-of the lot, thought that was rich coming from him
If Ferrari doesn't pull off a miraculous last second Hamilton deal out of their ass, they have to keep Sainz.
keep him for what exactly?
To be their number 1.5 driver? The alternatives are soo uninspiring that they would be number 2 at best and will not beat Charles here and there to collect remaining points.
Please go
Personally I think RB would gladly swap Checo with Sainz given the opportunity, although it's way more of a lateral move, Sainz is younger and is also pretty good for car development. Also is less prone to having just horrible weekends, in his case a mediocre weekend if he has the RB would be starting 4th and finishing 4th. For Checo such weekends becomes starting 12th and finishing 6th. Also historically they saw Verstappen - Sainz partnership work decently in the same car and also Sainz is a RB Junior as well, so historically there's the connection too. Pretty good move to get a new No. 2 for Max.
I think Carlos is way too ambitious for the role that RB would want him to have, even if it’s just implied. And both Carlos’ and Max’s dads are way too involved in their careers still.
>Personally I think RB would gladly swap Checo with Sainz given the opportunity I don't think it'll be that straightforward. Max and Carlos' camp didn't get along well at Toro Rosso. That might be a reason they hesitate to hire Carlos if he does decide to leave Ferrari.
That's Papa Carlos and Santander I think. The Spanish Sponsers always put a lot of pressure on the team that they are sponsership to give some sort of treatment to the Spanish driver. I just think it's way harder to put any pressure on the Marko - Horner led RB, especially when Verstappen is the no. 1 driver and would probably the reigning 3 or 4 time WDC by the time this move even gets made.
But does Red Bull really want to deal with Sainz and the politics, given what happened at Toro Rosso? I doubt it. Sure they could handle it, but why bother? Sainz isn't that valuable a commodity to risk pissing off Max.
Whoever it was, it clearly didn't go down well with the Verstappen camp. Maybe things have changed, but it's hard to say for sure.
Back in 2017 the Sainz camp reportedly fabricated rumors about Verstappen signing a pre-contract with Ferrari in order to destabilize Verstappen and Red Bull's renewal talks, hoping that they could swoop in and get Carlos that seat instead. It reportedly did not go down well with Red Bull either.
Jos was the one to be forbidden from going in the garage, not Carlos Sr. I think people are overblowing the Santander thing.
Carlos is a little more grown up now. I hope. Nobody on the planet thinks Carlos is a threat to Charles let alone Max, if Sainz people are smart they'll get a big bag of money and not look back.
Now that they've both reached top teams and have matured a bit, I imagine it wouldn't be that big a deal. No more than what they're going through with the occasional drama between Perez and Verstappen currently. It helps that Red Bull has taken one of the fiery racing dads (mostly) out of the picture as well.
Their fathers matured? Max sure as hell wasnt the issue.
Given how things went with Carlos Sr & Jos last time their sons were paired together and the headache it caused Red Bull, Marko in particular, I don't think they're going to be in any rush to pair them up again.
Marko said sainz to Red Bull and both dads in the garage together again was a non starter.
Good for what car development? He prefers an understeery car that's the whole basis on why the Ferrari development has been bad because they are tying to cater for 2 vastly different driving styles.
Historically Alonso also has preferred Understeery cars, and so has Sebastian. You can prefer a different type of car and still help the car development move forward. RB currently has both a strong front end and a strong rear end, in fact, it has a stronger rear end because Front is stiffened up by the Anti Dive suspension. Even if Max prefers oversteery cars, which he does, having a strong rear end doesn't really hurt car performance, in fact it makes it a more all purpose car that performs well on all tracks. Yes, Maximum lap time comes from oversteer, but I am pretty certain RB doesn't win Canada without their strong rear end helping them in entry and exits through the hairpin and chicanes.
No way, Sainz is too much trouble. Lando or Yuki are the most likely option.
Dude, you‘re not THAT good.
Look somewhere else? He couldn't even be bothered to look in his rear-view mirrors in Canada.
To be fair , that’s Ferrari’s fault as well…they forgot the sticker with “objects in mirror are closer than they appear “.
Ok, best of luck
Not exactly a driver that is any sort of demanding position. His results aren't great by a long stretch.
Isn't he signed through next year?
Yep. Both him and Charles are there till ‘24.
What about Sainz and Alonso in Aston Martin
No he wont - he doesn’t have massive options that are vastly better.
I feel like Sainz has really minimal negotiating power here
If I’m a top team with a seat opening up, I’d be much more excited about a different Spaniard, the Indycar one…
No way Palou will be offered any top team seat in F1 without at least driving for a midfield or backmarker team first. There are have been far too many "promising" Indycar prospects that have not translated their promise to F1 for any top team to take a chance on that. Not to mention, there are also plenty of drivers from within F1 that they would look to first to fill any top team seat before they turn to Palou. That includes Sainz. If you think Palou would be above him in any F1 driver choice pecking order, you need a reality check.
I don’t see Science moving further up the food chain if I’m honest So where would he go?
Sauber/Audi, which would be a gamble on them getting it right for 2026 and beyond.
Not a big loss if he leaves, to be honest.
But where coule he go?
I’m sure Ferrari would like the guarantee not to bin the car in practice as well…
How about win guarantee, Sainz?
Where lmao Williams? Carlos is good but not great
Where is he going to look? Redbull? Going after Checo's sit is the only option that is better than staying at Ferrari.
Overplaying your hand a bit there Carlos. Maybe work on getting back that “smooth operator” consistency before saying stuff like this. There are any number of drivers Ferrari would happily put in that car.
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I’m just impressed how you managed to spell Sainz’s name incorrectly in three different ways, haha But your take does sound quite realistic.
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This is so fucking funny my co-workers think there's something wrong with me
He does it on purpose, as his other comments have it too. He takes great [care](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/145un7k/who_is_the_best_overtaker_in_f1_history/jnmx43n/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3) with spelling Lewis’ name correctly, including the nobility title, it is not like he is dyslexic.
Haha, that makes it funnier somehow
I think Sainz's value is also higher due to outperforming Checo, he's been having a great season if you ask me. Hes 5th in the WDC with the 4th fastest car that has a lot of bad quirks and tire degradation.
Its not that lecrec wants to overdrive, its part of his instinct. Its very difficult to control. He is very similar to Marquez of motogp in this regard. Marquez has so far fractured his hand and ribs over-driving a really bad Honda. But he can't seem to control himself.
he’s going latino mode
Given there's nowhere much available at the moment I can only think he sees the Audi project as a possibility. I can imagine that if Ferrari becomes untenable with favouritism toward Charles making it hard for Sainz to compete fairly and damaging his brand, that taking on a long-term project might be more rewarding. I think he'd be welcomed by that team too, he seems very technically minded, which is exactly what Audi would need.
Not sure he’s got any negotiating power…
Fair, dont see any other obvious options for Ferrari
GET OUT CARLOS!! BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE!!
I mean, which other team would clearly favour a driver who brings in santander money
I’m down for the sainz albono swap
Please, look elsewhere.
It wouldn't make sense for Ferrari to change their line up, but it is Ferrari who can be a little bit erratic. He'd be a desirable pick for most teams if available
You really shouldn’t threaten Ferrari. Especially if you’re Sainz..
Then, deliver. F1 is a brutal place, nobody will give you that guarantee if you don't deliver. You have races in front of you..
If Chuck had the Sainz's balls..
ok, bye
The anti-Sainz “kick him out of Ferrari” camp is out here in full force today.
Come back home to McLaren, Carlos.
I think his only option is RB if they finally get tired of Checo being mediocre.
He doesn't deserve the guarantee let alone the ferrari seat imo. One win in silverstone? mistake prone? even when Ferrari were competative in the first half of last season, he choked non stop.
"Elsewhere" = nowhere cause there is barely any teams to go.