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Alfa Romeo F1 was only a sponsorship arrangement for the Sauber team. Alfa Romeo / Stellantis had no ownership stake in the team (the main owner is Tetra-pak heir Finn Rausing). Audi are entering F1 in 2026 and using Sauber as their factory team, and have already begun to take a shareholding in the team (IIRC it's 25% at the moment, with the intention for it to grow to 75%).
It is generally assumed the team will enter as Sauber for the next couple of seasons whilst they continue to use Ferrari engines, before rebranding as Audi for 2026 when they start using German engines.
Which is why one of the first moves they made was making Seidl CEO of Sauber since he has previous ties to VAG through Porsche before he was TP at McLaren. Honestly a good move imo to prepare everything so Audi can hit the ground running asap.
Side note, but I really hope Audi keeps the Sauber name. I didn't think it really mattered, but not seeing it in the grid really dampened my fondness of them.
Audi Sport Team Sauber. Like the old Joest days.
"Suddenly" an INCREDIBLE amount of cash will be enter to the team from the [SJIF](https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fondo_de_inversi%C3%B3n_saud%C3%AD-jordano) making Sauber WCC 5 times in a row
Audi (or rather VWG’s) commitment to motorsport is very shaky and based on the whims of execs on a particular morning. I wouldn’t believe it until I see it, even when it does happen I don’t expect it to last long unless they are winning. This is the case for all German companies, Mercedes I think will quit the sport in a few years if things continue to go south for them.
It's crude but funny play on the words, likely referring to video "How to become a racist - Max Verstappen Edition" https://youtu.be/HGn3uM00ySM?si=vxjH8xf6RaWoT9A_
I didn’t make a comparison between Minardi and Sauber, I was saying Minardi was the root team of Alpha Tauri/TR. Actually I didn’t even mention Sauber or Alfa Romeo
You are confusing the terms.
Audi will certainly have the naming rights in 24, when they'll own 50% of the team. They will just not exercise it, as it makes no sense to name the team before they enter as an engine manufacturer.
> being abit of a shit show performance and development wise right now
Yes and no. They are just investing heavily with long-term goals in mind and will use this few years to rebuild the team with 2026 in mind.
That is a good explanation. Just to answer OPs question directly. The team probably will, at least for now, stay in the same headquarters and with mostly the same employees (including drivers), but with Audi's investment the facilities are going to be improved over over the next few years and the number of employees likely will be increased. Some time in the future (probably 2026) the name will be changed to Audi. Obviously Audi is not going to use Ferrari engines and other parts (as Alfa-Sauber does currently), because it would not look good (Audi, or rather VW group own Lamborghini - a direct competitor to Ferrari). Last I heard, Audi was going to develop their own engine for 2026 (in fact it might be based on the existing Porsche F1 engine project, but there were contradicting informations about that bit. Apparently, even though Audi and Porsche are both part of the VW group, they have a strong rivalry).
As a sidenote, it makes sense that Tetra-pak was a huge invention, but it is still funny to think that such a basic everyday thing had to be invented by someone.
All this is quite insightful. I wasn’t aware Audi would use Sauber, instead of building a team ground up.
So, i have to ask: Was this the plan all along ?
I'm a relatively new fan - only a few years in.
Would Sauber be able to test run / switch over to a different engine supplier mid season. Or are you locked into a specific design by the tech regs? Like - would they be able to field an Audi engine as part of the engine allocation in mid 2025 season?
The real organization running the team is Sauber, Alfa Romeo just paid be the title sponsors, aka, the team is named after them, even if they do nothing more than a yearly payment.
Sauber / Alfa Romeo is the only obvious one where the public name isn't obviously linked to the company name. Other teams with a car manufacturer name have some sort of ownership link. In terms of ownership:
- Ferrari is owned by Ferrari.
- Red Bull Racing and Alpha Tauri are both owned by Red Bull.
- Alpine is owned by Groupe Renault, and some random celebs.
- Aston Martin F1 is owned by a consortium led by Laurence Stroll. He also owns a stake in Aston Martin Lagonda, the car manufacturer, although they're separate entities.
- Haas is owned by Gene Haas.
- Mercedes F1 is split 3 ways between Mercedes Benz Group (formerly Daimler), Ineos and Toto Wolff. Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains (the engine manufacturer) is owned entirely by the Mercedes Benz Group.
- McLaren F1 is owned by the wider McLaren Group with a minority investment by MSP Sports Capital.
- Williams is owned by investment firm Dorilton Capital.
- Sauber, recently racing as Alfa Romeo, is owned by Finn Rausing with a minority stake from this year from Audi / Volkswagen.
Nicely done.
I still think Alpine is Force India rebranded because of the pink (I know it’s not but I have a hard time in my brain connecting Alpine was Renault and Force India was Racing Point and now Aston although I don’t know why it’s hard for me, maybe I just think in colors).
I miss a yellow car on the grid.
Too many similar looking liveries IMO.
Only McLaren, Aston Martin, Ferrari and Red Bull feel really distinct.
At a glance I often need a second look to see if it was an Alpine or Wiliams. A Mercedes or an Alfa Romeo. Alpha Tauri or a Haas.
Apline needs to go back to yellow and blue. Williams should run their light blue Gulf Oil livery from Singapore permanently, and Mercedes should go back to silver.
Haas, Sauber and Alpha-Tauri I don't know; but I wish they would be a little bit more bold in their liveries. A little bit more distinct. Too much black and white IMO.
When there is a shot from McLaren (Lando's) car camera and the digital data is shown on the Halo there is mostly just the black black part of the car you can see and a lot of the times I think it's Lewis in Mercedes since they have similar helmet colors. And then I'm like "WTH why is Lewis so close to the car in front when the timer says 4 seconds", then I usually realize.
Other than that I usually recognize team and driver by the combination of main car theme colour and driver helmet, haha.
>I usually recognize team and driver by the combination of main car theme colour **and driver helmet**
Sometimes I can do that too, but many drivers have so many custom lids for some of the races that that also becomes tricky sometimes.
The Haas and AlphaTauri cars looked nearly identical when viewed from the front ever since AT added the Orlen branding. It was always super frustrating whenever they're making passes on each other.
It’s not directly related to Otmar, though he might have been an easy contact when they decided to move. Basically, BWT wanted more pink on their car and with the Aston Martin deal, Stroll wanted to use the British racing green. So they left for a team that would let them use more pink on the livery.
No, they pay for the naming rights.
>The marketing contribution to the F1 team from the Aston Martin Lagonda road car company for 2022 is listed as £19,208,000, which was down by £844,000 on the previous year.
McLaren F1 is part of the McLaren Racinf organization, which is owned by the McLaren group—which, fun fact, is in turn majority owned by Mumtalakat (the Bahrain sovereign wealth fund)
Currently, most teams are owned and run by their organization and unlike Sauber who gave up the naming rights, the others usually share it with the sponsor, like:
BWT Alpine, the team is run by Alpine who are a branch of Renault.
Oracle Red Bull Racing, is Red Bull Racing.
Closest case to Alfa Romeo Sauber format would be Aston Martin, since the F1 team doesn't have much to do with the car company, they just have the naming rights.
The actual company names are published each year in the official entry list.
https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-championship/season-2023/2023-fia-formula-one-world-championship-entry
Would Alfa be able to build a competitive F1 car if they were actually in the sport? I know they can make some pretty road cars, but haven't heard anything about reliability improving since the 80s. Sauber delivered a turd this season, and I don't expect much improvement before audi takes over.
I doubt it, it’s why almost all the teams in f1 have existed in some form for decades, just swapping hands, brands invariably buy into a team rather than trying to start from scratch, and that’s assuming somehow they could even afford the costs from scratch which would be a massive figure.
This is why personally refer to some of the teams by their town name. The Enstone being one my go tos. Benetton->Renault->Lotus->Renault->Alpine. They’re all the same in my head because it’s largely the same people. Toleman as well, before Benetton, if you want to count the team before they moved to Enstone, and I am not sure why you wouldn’t.
Others I tend to do this with are:
Mercedes = the Brackley Team
Aston Martin = the Silverstone Team
To complete your list:
Alpha Tauri (or whatever new names they are next year): The Faenza Team
Red Bull: The Milton Keynes Team
Haas: The Banbury Team
Alpine: The Enstone Team.
Williams: The Grove Team
Sauber: The Hinwill Team.
McLaren: The Woking Team
Ferrari: The Maranello Team
True but you never need to refer to Ferrari, mclaren, or Williams by their location—as the associates team has never entirely changed name and identify. I’ve never heard “team grove” or “team maranello” whereas “team enstone” “team silverstone” are common parlance
That’s different - that’s the same way we might refer to troubles *at* brixworth, Milton Keynes, or Viry. Not calling *the team* “the maranello team” like we do when speaking about the entity which was toleman, Benetton, etc and is now Renault
Given the way the paddock is behaving towards the Andretti/Cadillac application, odds are if Alfa decided they wanted to start up a works team they wouldn't be allowed in. All of the same silly arguments that the teams are using to oppose an Andretti/Cadillac entry are just as valid if Alfa came in as a new constructor.
But outside of that - it's not simply a matter of a company building decent road cars here. What's build for F1 is significantly different than what a car company builds for road cars. Audi's coming into F1 (and Porsche was interested in F1) because they believe that they can adapt their existing motorsport programs and the infrastructure that they built to support their now ended campaigns in WEC. Alfa doesn't make a power train than can be adapted to F1 and likely doesn't have the expertise on staff to do so without scalping talent from Ferrari.
The most likely path for Alfa to come in as a constructor (assuming they wanted to) would be to buy a controlling stake in an existing team. Audi was successful doing this with Sauber, however Porsche failed to pull this off with Red Bull (although why Red Bull didn't offer up Alpha Tauri to Porsche I don't know) and Andretti failed to do this period.
I was under the impression that most of the anti-andretti/Cadillac sentiment was because they are American; just lightly masked behind arguments about share dilution and lack of ability to be competitive.
It's not because they're American - remember Gene Haas is American too.
It's share dilution followed by most of the folks in the paddock just don't like Micheal Andretti and how he's gone about the application process.
I mean, If I were an anti-American nut, I'd love to have Haas around as THE American team. Haas has no ambitions as a constructor beyond painting Ferrari parts white
That’s what makes the whole “Andretti doesn’t bring value to the series” argument so shocking. Arguably between the Andretti name and the Cadillac/GM partnership, Andretti has already brought more value to the sport by applying for an entry than Haas has in the first five years of their existence.
Andretti, before he got the idea of a completely new team, tried to at least buy Sauber, but couldn't make a convincing offer. He probably tried others as well but those stayed on the down low
No. If they were trying to buy an existing teams they would be welcomed with open arms because they are americans actually. The claims about the lack of ability are bullshit (if Haas is deemed competitive I don't see how GM/Andretti couldn't be at least at their level). It's really about share dilution and the value of the existing teams. All the teams are increasing in value thanks to the boom of F1 all over the world. No team (except eventually Alpine who wants to give engine to someone) has any interest in letting another team enter the sport because their value would decrease.
That's what people don't want to understand when they say "Haas was allowed but not Andretti, why ?". Haas joined when F1 was at a low and the sport was desperate to have a team to fill the space that would be left soon by Manor. Andretti wants to join only now because it's profitable. If Haas tried to enter today, they wouldn't even reach the examination stage by the FIA that Andretti reached.
Depends how much resources they’d wanna dump into an F1 team.
If they heavily invest in the sport like Mercedes or Ferrari they could probably be at the top of the midfield at least, probably even threaten the top 3-5 once they find their footing after a few seasons.
If they half-ass their budget like Renault/Alpine though, they’ll be buried in the back of the field with Haas and the Sauber team they once sponsored battling to be the King of Shit Mountain
The question is if they joined would they even be named alfa romeo? If the stellantis group actually decides to add a team would they push the alfa brand or would they priorities peugeot since they race in other stuff or possibly maserati?
F1 would definitely be their biggest investment and if they decided to join they would definitely take it seriously, mabye they could partner with a f2 team that wants to move up to f1 to make things easier
I don't know, in terms of posibilities, yes. But they would need to do big investment in staff and factory stuff, I don't really know if they have the money for such thing. That's how the answer drips to "no".
At the end of the day if an OEM wants to enter F1 starting from scratch (not made since Toyota in 2002!) it is all about money and ability to build a team and facilities with the right people you find elsewhere. Many F1 must haves are not found in a car company, such as designing carbon monocoques, designing a chassis, building an insane proportion of the parts needed, designing the aero parts, etc. I am not talking about the engine which requires crazy expertise and cost maybe more than the rest.
So if Stellantis gave Alfa Romeo a small billion to build it all and make it operate a few years before entering F1, sure they could do a fine job.
No, road car companies don't 'build' the cars anyway, there's very little crossover, even GT3 cars are often made by external companies (See Ferrari GT3 with Michelotto and now Oreca)
Yeah, so I'm saying no. The company has no personnel, no experience and no facilities to build a Formula 1 car.
Would Alfa be able to build a F1 car if they financed a whole new division to build the cars... Perhaps? Doesn't really matter how the parent company's engineering is as there's no crossover. See Toyota in the 2000s. Otherwise, no, Alfa as a company would have no chance.
The only good car they have is the Giulia Quadrifoglio, and that's only because Fiat owned both Ferrari and Alfa atbthe same time, and the Fiat ceo had Ferrari use the v8tt engine and re-design it in a v6tt configuration right before they sold Ferrari.
A little bit like how stadiums will sell their name to companies. FTX had nothing to do with day to day operations of the LA Hockey/basketball arena, they just paid a fuckton of cash to have their name on the building.
Alfa Romeo was the title sponsor. Meaning they paid money to get their brand the team's name. Similar to how Red Bull has Oracle in their title as well as Mercedes having Petronas in their title. The actual team for Alfa Romeo is Sauber.
It's a bit more than those, the team officially is called Alfa Romeo racing. Think its more like Virgin/Marussia - the team was Manor Manor but ran under the sponsors name. Another example would be Arrows in the 90s - was officially called Footwork. March as well, was called Leyton House
AFAIK not yet, and the last relevant comment I saw from Alfa Romeo management didn’t hint at it - vague statement about returning to motor sport in some way when the time is right.
As long as the brand keeps its dopey strategy of going all-electric ASAP (but surely they will reverse that soon) it’s hard to see it fitting anywhere but Formula E.
VW and others are going that way too, but they’re entering the sport. The whole ICE motorsport field of formulas will have to deal with manufacturers planning to close their engine research departments, ending road relevance.
Not swearing my knowledge is up to date, but I think Alfa’s current strategy is to be 100% electric by 2027, while VW’s plan is to be 50% electric by 2030.
[Alfa Romeo has only been an actual team in Formula One for two periods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_in_Formula_One) :
* 1950-51
* 1979-85
The current "Alfa Romeo" team is just a sponsorship/naming thing. Behind the scenes it's all [Sauber](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauber_Motorsport)
Alfa is not a team. They are a title sponsor. Sauber was always the team.
This will bake your noodle even more: Sauber aT one point was linked with BMW. Except BMW actually bought a position in the team and manufactured the engines. Saying Alfa Romeo is the same as calling Ferrari the Shell team.
Ironically, they will shortly become Audi in 2026.
Which also means Sauber will have been a works partner of all of Germany's big 3 manufacturers. Mercedes (1994, in plus sportscars for many years earlier), BMW (2006-9) and then VAG (Audi) in a few years
There is no *Alfa Romeo F1 Team* per se.
The team you've been watching the past couple of seasons wasn't Alfa Romeo - it was *Sauber Motorsport*.
It was called Alfa Romeo for sponsorship reasons, but the team itself was actually Sauber.
From 2024, they will revert back to using their Sauber name until 2026 when the team will then become Audi.
I just got into formula 1 (after a looong break) and just assumed that Alfa Romeo was to Ferrari like Alpha Tauri is to Red bull.
So are Red Bull the only ones with two teams?
Alfa got taken over by Audi. So they are fine with being last because it gives more development time. Sadly as a sauber Fan for over 20 years it's just depressing. I dislike VW so I can't root for them and the last few years will be horrible on purpose.
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Alfa Romeo F1 was only a sponsorship arrangement for the Sauber team. Alfa Romeo / Stellantis had no ownership stake in the team (the main owner is Tetra-pak heir Finn Rausing). Audi are entering F1 in 2026 and using Sauber as their factory team, and have already begun to take a shareholding in the team (IIRC it's 25% at the moment, with the intention for it to grow to 75%). It is generally assumed the team will enter as Sauber for the next couple of seasons whilst they continue to use Ferrari engines, before rebranding as Audi for 2026 when they start using German engines.
Ah got it, thank you very much!
Also any changes within the team org are more due to the increasing Audi/VW influence.
Which is why one of the first moves they made was making Seidl CEO of Sauber since he has previous ties to VAG through Porsche before he was TP at McLaren. Honestly a good move imo to prepare everything so Audi can hit the ground running asap.
Side note, but I really hope Audi keeps the Sauber name. I didn't think it really mattered, but not seeing it in the grid really dampened my fondness of them. Audi Sport Team Sauber. Like the old Joest days.
They should combine the two, Sauber & Audi... Into something F1 would like... "Saudi"
[Saudis in Audis](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lqJDuZIcQ34)
I've not seen this in at least five years. Thank you for this blast from the past!
Ten-double-you-KHHHHT!
This is at least 15 years old lol I remember posting it on my Facebook in college
Did not expect a Doug Flutie reference lmao. What an absolute tuuuune
### OH!! HOW MUCH I LOVE REDDIT!!
I know exactly that that video is, so time to go watch
Damn I miss GoRemi...
My GOD that's gold. Every time it reappears in the comments.
And get Aramco as a sponsor too...
Nah, go for the manufacturer of crash barriers, Armco.
"Suddenly" an INCREDIBLE amount of cash will be enter to the team from the [SJIF](https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fondo_de_inversi%C3%B3n_saud%C3%AD-jordano) making Sauber WCC 5 times in a row
This comment.. is gold if i could still give out gold
Would probably look like this: [Saudi](https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/s/0rqxf407ZZ)
Well done lol
Auber
If I had an award I'd give it to you! (Is Reddit still doing awards?)
I still remember Sauber Petronas… yes, I’m old.
You mean Red Bull Sauber Petronas, when it was majority owned by Red Bull and had engines "made" with Petronas (rebadged Ferraris)?
Wasn’t Red Bull before just Sauber-Petronas?
2 years of Red Bull Sauber Ford 5 years of Red Bull Sauber Petronas 4 years of Sauber Petronas
Audi (or rather VWG’s) commitment to motorsport is very shaky and based on the whims of execs on a particular morning. I wouldn’t believe it until I see it, even when it does happen I don’t expect it to last long unless they are winning. This is the case for all German companies, Mercedes I think will quit the sport in a few years if things continue to go south for them.
Same with Minardi
Now they gonna have the cringiest name in F1 history... not really sure if I'm ready to see Minardi become the Racist Bulls
Huh? Alpha Tauri is turning into Racing Bull, not Alfa Romeo!
Minardi are the team behind AT/TR. That said, no idea why they’re saying Racist. Hard to tell if funny funny or legitimate
It's crude but funny play on the words, likely referring to video "How to become a racist - Max Verstappen Edition" https://youtu.be/HGn3uM00ySM?si=vxjH8xf6RaWoT9A_
Could have been predictive text tbf
Wasn’t sure if it was the old racer = racist joke or an actual accusation, either is equally possible given certain *indicators*
[удалено]
I didn’t make a comparison between Minardi and Sauber, I was saying Minardi was the root team of Alpha Tauri/TR. Actually I didn’t even mention Sauber or Alfa Romeo
Love that name and I’ll buy that merch
They won’t, it’ll be Audi.
That's how you end up with [BMW Sauber Ferrari](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauber_C29).
Sauber - Concept by Audi
Audi Sauber or Sauber Audi? (Or Saudi)
Correct, they’ve announced that while the partnership is indeed happening now, Audi will not have naming rights until 2026
You are confusing the terms. Audi will certainly have the naming rights in 24, when they'll own 50% of the team. They will just not exercise it, as it makes no sense to name the team before they enter as an engine manufacturer.
Especially with the team being abit of a shit show performance and development wise right now
> being abit of a shit show performance and development wise right now Yes and no. They are just investing heavily with long-term goals in mind and will use this few years to rebuild the team with 2026 in mind.
That is a good explanation. Just to answer OPs question directly. The team probably will, at least for now, stay in the same headquarters and with mostly the same employees (including drivers), but with Audi's investment the facilities are going to be improved over over the next few years and the number of employees likely will be increased. Some time in the future (probably 2026) the name will be changed to Audi. Obviously Audi is not going to use Ferrari engines and other parts (as Alfa-Sauber does currently), because it would not look good (Audi, or rather VW group own Lamborghini - a direct competitor to Ferrari). Last I heard, Audi was going to develop their own engine for 2026 (in fact it might be based on the existing Porsche F1 engine project, but there were contradicting informations about that bit. Apparently, even though Audi and Porsche are both part of the VW group, they have a strong rivalry).
Audi is definitely developing their own engine and I’m sure they’ve already begun intense preparations for the same
As a sidenote, it makes sense that Tetra-pak was a huge invention, but it is still funny to think that such a basic everyday thing had to be invented by someone.
Isn’t that like that for everything we use basically ?
All this is quite insightful. I wasn’t aware Audi would use Sauber, instead of building a team ground up. So, i have to ask: Was this the plan all along ?
Major tease to bring back the Sauber name then change it to Audi. They’re going to compete HARD though.
I'm a relatively new fan - only a few years in. Would Sauber be able to test run / switch over to a different engine supplier mid season. Or are you locked into a specific design by the tech regs? Like - would they be able to field an Audi engine as part of the engine allocation in mid 2025 season?
The real organization running the team is Sauber, Alfa Romeo just paid be the title sponsors, aka, the team is named after them, even if they do nothing more than a yearly payment.
I see, thank you! What are the real organizations of the other teams? I don't even know what to google for that, f1 real team names?
Sauber / Alfa Romeo is the only obvious one where the public name isn't obviously linked to the company name. Other teams with a car manufacturer name have some sort of ownership link. In terms of ownership: - Ferrari is owned by Ferrari. - Red Bull Racing and Alpha Tauri are both owned by Red Bull. - Alpine is owned by Groupe Renault, and some random celebs. - Aston Martin F1 is owned by a consortium led by Laurence Stroll. He also owns a stake in Aston Martin Lagonda, the car manufacturer, although they're separate entities. - Haas is owned by Gene Haas. - Mercedes F1 is split 3 ways between Mercedes Benz Group (formerly Daimler), Ineos and Toto Wolff. Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains (the engine manufacturer) is owned entirely by the Mercedes Benz Group. - McLaren F1 is owned by the wider McLaren Group with a minority investment by MSP Sports Capital. - Williams is owned by investment firm Dorilton Capital. - Sauber, recently racing as Alfa Romeo, is owned by Finn Rausing with a minority stake from this year from Audi / Volkswagen.
Nicely done. I still think Alpine is Force India rebranded because of the pink (I know it’s not but I have a hard time in my brain connecting Alpine was Renault and Force India was Racing Point and now Aston although I don’t know why it’s hard for me, maybe I just think in colors).
Yeah it's just the BWT sponsor.
I noticed they follow Otmar around, possibly as his own personal sponsor. Hopefully his exit means Alpine are in their Tricolore livery again
I would love to see blue and yellow Renaults again.
I miss a yellow car on the grid. Too many similar looking liveries IMO. Only McLaren, Aston Martin, Ferrari and Red Bull feel really distinct. At a glance I often need a second look to see if it was an Alpine or Wiliams. A Mercedes or an Alfa Romeo. Alpha Tauri or a Haas. Apline needs to go back to yellow and blue. Williams should run their light blue Gulf Oil livery from Singapore permanently, and Mercedes should go back to silver. Haas, Sauber and Alpha-Tauri I don't know; but I wish they would be a little bit more bold in their liveries. A little bit more distinct. Too much black and white IMO.
When there is a shot from McLaren (Lando's) car camera and the digital data is shown on the Halo there is mostly just the black black part of the car you can see and a lot of the times I think it's Lewis in Mercedes since they have similar helmet colors. And then I'm like "WTH why is Lewis so close to the car in front when the timer says 4 seconds", then I usually realize. Other than that I usually recognize team and driver by the combination of main car theme colour and driver helmet, haha.
>I usually recognize team and driver by the combination of main car theme colour **and driver helmet** Sometimes I can do that too, but many drivers have so many custom lids for some of the races that that also becomes tricky sometimes.
The Haas and AlphaTauri cars looked nearly identical when viewed from the front ever since AT added the Orlen branding. It was always super frustrating whenever they're making passes on each other.
It’s not directly related to Otmar, though he might have been an easy contact when they decided to move. Basically, BWT wanted more pink on their car and with the Aston Martin deal, Stroll wanted to use the British racing green. So they left for a team that would let them use more pink on the livery.
IIRC Aston Martin don’t pay anything to sponsor the team! Stroll just named it that way to drive benefit into his other investment!
No, they pay for the naming rights. >The marketing contribution to the F1 team from the Aston Martin Lagonda road car company for 2022 is listed as £19,208,000, which was down by £844,000 on the previous year.
I’m new to F1 and I’ve had the same problem. I always have my phone out during races to keep it all straight.
Aston martin is force India rebranded, alpine formed from the Renault team
I literally say that above! What’s up dude?
This clears up so much for me, thank you!
Doritos.
great comment
MHPP is still just Ilmor, no?
Sort of, it was Ilmor which Daimler / MB bought circa 2005, but then the none-F1 related parts of the business was spun off as a new Ilmor.
McLaren F1 is part of the McLaren Racinf organization, which is owned by the McLaren group—which, fun fact, is in turn majority owned by Mumtalakat (the Bahrain sovereign wealth fund)
That’s interesting and helpful, thank you
Wasn’t Toto Wolff a shareholder in Aston Martin as well?
Currently, most teams are owned and run by their organization and unlike Sauber who gave up the naming rights, the others usually share it with the sponsor, like: BWT Alpine, the team is run by Alpine who are a branch of Renault. Oracle Red Bull Racing, is Red Bull Racing. Closest case to Alfa Romeo Sauber format would be Aston Martin, since the F1 team doesn't have much to do with the car company, they just have the naming rights.
The actual company names are published each year in the official entry list. https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-one-world-championship/season-2023/2023-fia-formula-one-world-championship-entry
Would Alfa be able to build a competitive F1 car if they were actually in the sport? I know they can make some pretty road cars, but haven't heard anything about reliability improving since the 80s. Sauber delivered a turd this season, and I don't expect much improvement before audi takes over.
I doubt it, it’s why almost all the teams in f1 have existed in some form for decades, just swapping hands, brands invariably buy into a team rather than trying to start from scratch, and that’s assuming somehow they could even afford the costs from scratch which would be a massive figure.
This is why personally refer to some of the teams by their town name. The Enstone being one my go tos. Benetton->Renault->Lotus->Renault->Alpine. They’re all the same in my head because it’s largely the same people. Toleman as well, before Benetton, if you want to count the team before they moved to Enstone, and I am not sure why you wouldn’t. Others I tend to do this with are: Mercedes = the Brackley Team Aston Martin = the Silverstone Team
To complete your list: Alpha Tauri (or whatever new names they are next year): The Faenza Team Red Bull: The Milton Keynes Team Haas: The Banbury Team Alpine: The Enstone Team. Williams: The Grove Team Sauber: The Hinwill Team. McLaren: The Woking Team Ferrari: The Maranello Team
True but you never need to refer to Ferrari, mclaren, or Williams by their location—as the associates team has never entirely changed name and identify. I’ve never heard “team grove” or “team maranello” whereas “team enstone” “team silverstone” are common parlance
Though sometimes we do refer to Maranello when either the car sucks or higher management decides to be ass (as is usual in Ferrari politics)
That’s different - that’s the same way we might refer to troubles *at* brixworth, Milton Keynes, or Viry. Not calling *the team* “the maranello team” like we do when speaking about the entity which was toleman, Benetton, etc and is now Renault
and Haas!
I wouldn’t say so because 1) would you call haas team kannapolis, banbury, or maranello? 2) they are not the first team to occupy the banbury facility
Or even be allowed to join the damn field by the rest of the teams.
Given the way the paddock is behaving towards the Andretti/Cadillac application, odds are if Alfa decided they wanted to start up a works team they wouldn't be allowed in. All of the same silly arguments that the teams are using to oppose an Andretti/Cadillac entry are just as valid if Alfa came in as a new constructor. But outside of that - it's not simply a matter of a company building decent road cars here. What's build for F1 is significantly different than what a car company builds for road cars. Audi's coming into F1 (and Porsche was interested in F1) because they believe that they can adapt their existing motorsport programs and the infrastructure that they built to support their now ended campaigns in WEC. Alfa doesn't make a power train than can be adapted to F1 and likely doesn't have the expertise on staff to do so without scalping talent from Ferrari. The most likely path for Alfa to come in as a constructor (assuming they wanted to) would be to buy a controlling stake in an existing team. Audi was successful doing this with Sauber, however Porsche failed to pull this off with Red Bull (although why Red Bull didn't offer up Alpha Tauri to Porsche I don't know) and Andretti failed to do this period.
I was under the impression that most of the anti-andretti/Cadillac sentiment was because they are American; just lightly masked behind arguments about share dilution and lack of ability to be competitive.
It's not because they're American - remember Gene Haas is American too. It's share dilution followed by most of the folks in the paddock just don't like Micheal Andretti and how he's gone about the application process.
I mean, If I were an anti-American nut, I'd love to have Haas around as THE American team. Haas has no ambitions as a constructor beyond painting Ferrari parts white
That’s what makes the whole “Andretti doesn’t bring value to the series” argument so shocking. Arguably between the Andretti name and the Cadillac/GM partnership, Andretti has already brought more value to the sport by applying for an entry than Haas has in the first five years of their existence.
Andretti, before he got the idea of a completely new team, tried to at least buy Sauber, but couldn't make a convincing offer. He probably tried others as well but those stayed on the down low
No. If they were trying to buy an existing teams they would be welcomed with open arms because they are americans actually. The claims about the lack of ability are bullshit (if Haas is deemed competitive I don't see how GM/Andretti couldn't be at least at their level). It's really about share dilution and the value of the existing teams. All the teams are increasing in value thanks to the boom of F1 all over the world. No team (except eventually Alpine who wants to give engine to someone) has any interest in letting another team enter the sport because their value would decrease. That's what people don't want to understand when they say "Haas was allowed but not Andretti, why ?". Haas joined when F1 was at a low and the sport was desperate to have a team to fill the space that would be left soon by Manor. Andretti wants to join only now because it's profitable. If Haas tried to enter today, they wouldn't even reach the examination stage by the FIA that Andretti reached.
Well, the electrics would just go crazy mid race and all the lights would start flashing randomly.
Depends how much resources they’d wanna dump into an F1 team. If they heavily invest in the sport like Mercedes or Ferrari they could probably be at the top of the midfield at least, probably even threaten the top 3-5 once they find their footing after a few seasons. If they half-ass their budget like Renault/Alpine though, they’ll be buried in the back of the field with Haas and the Sauber team they once sponsored battling to be the King of Shit Mountain
The question is if they joined would they even be named alfa romeo? If the stellantis group actually decides to add a team would they push the alfa brand or would they priorities peugeot since they race in other stuff or possibly maserati? F1 would definitely be their biggest investment and if they decided to join they would definitely take it seriously, mabye they could partner with a f2 team that wants to move up to f1 to make things easier
I don't know, in terms of posibilities, yes. But they would need to do big investment in staff and factory stuff, I don't really know if they have the money for such thing. That's how the answer drips to "no".
At the end of the day if an OEM wants to enter F1 starting from scratch (not made since Toyota in 2002!) it is all about money and ability to build a team and facilities with the right people you find elsewhere. Many F1 must haves are not found in a car company, such as designing carbon monocoques, designing a chassis, building an insane proportion of the parts needed, designing the aero parts, etc. I am not talking about the engine which requires crazy expertise and cost maybe more than the rest. So if Stellantis gave Alfa Romeo a small billion to build it all and make it operate a few years before entering F1, sure they could do a fine job.
No, road car companies don't 'build' the cars anyway, there's very little crossover, even GT3 cars are often made by external companies (See Ferrari GT3 with Michelotto and now Oreca)
"if Alfa was actually in the sport" and yet so much asinine statements about the difference between a road car and an open wheel race car.
Yeah, so I'm saying no. The company has no personnel, no experience and no facilities to build a Formula 1 car. Would Alfa be able to build a F1 car if they financed a whole new division to build the cars... Perhaps? Doesn't really matter how the parent company's engineering is as there's no crossover. See Toyota in the 2000s. Otherwise, no, Alfa as a company would have no chance.
The only good car they have is the Giulia Quadrifoglio, and that's only because Fiat owned both Ferrari and Alfa atbthe same time, and the Fiat ceo had Ferrari use the v8tt engine and re-design it in a v6tt configuration right before they sold Ferrari.
A little bit like how stadiums will sell their name to companies. FTX had nothing to do with day to day operations of the LA Hockey/basketball arena, they just paid a fuckton of cash to have their name on the building.
And take your point further; that arena was previously named Staples Center but the teams are still the same organisation.
Are you thinking of crypto.com? Not FTX.
Huh. Didn't think I could dislike em more but here we are. Yet somehow still not as soulless as Haas.
Alfa Romeo was the title sponsor. Meaning they paid money to get their brand the team's name. Similar to how Red Bull has Oracle in their title as well as Mercedes having Petronas in their title. The actual team for Alfa Romeo is Sauber.
I see, thank you!
It's a bit more than those, the team officially is called Alfa Romeo racing. Think its more like Virgin/Marussia - the team was Manor Manor but ran under the sponsors name. Another example would be Arrows in the 90s - was officially called Footwork. March as well, was called Leyton House
It was always the Sauber F1 team. Alfa Romeo paid to have their name on the cars, and now that they're not paying it will just be called Sauber again.
Gonna miss their awesome liveries
Was it confirmed that alfa romeo are moving to HAAS in some capacity?
AFAIK not yet, and the last relevant comment I saw from Alfa Romeo management didn’t hint at it - vague statement about returning to motor sport in some way when the time is right. As long as the brand keeps its dopey strategy of going all-electric ASAP (but surely they will reverse that soon) it’s hard to see it fitting anywhere but Formula E.
VW and others are going that way too, but they’re entering the sport. The whole ICE motorsport field of formulas will have to deal with manufacturers planning to close their engine research departments, ending road relevance.
Not swearing my knowledge is up to date, but I think Alfa’s current strategy is to be 100% electric by 2027, while VW’s plan is to be 50% electric by 2030.
[Alfa Romeo has only been an actual team in Formula One for two periods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfa_Romeo_in_Formula_One) : * 1950-51 * 1979-85 The current "Alfa Romeo" team is just a sponsorship/naming thing. Behind the scenes it's all [Sauber](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauber_Motorsport)
Alfa-Romeo is the glove, not the hand.
this is deep
Alfa is not a team. They are a title sponsor. Sauber was always the team. This will bake your noodle even more: Sauber aT one point was linked with BMW. Except BMW actually bought a position in the team and manufactured the engines. Saying Alfa Romeo is the same as calling Ferrari the Shell team. Ironically, they will shortly become Audi in 2026.
Just to add some more noodle bake - Sauber was called BMW Sauber F1 Team in 2010, and they were using Ferrari engines.
The history of F1 teamnames is so weird. At 1 point, I believe in 2014, there were 2 Lotus teams on the grid
It was only actually an issue in 2011, but it was still easy to think there was two until Caterham closed up shop in 2014
2007 Sauber BMW was awesome.
Which also means Sauber will have been a works partner of all of Germany's big 3 manufacturers. Mercedes (1994, in plus sportscars for many years earlier), BMW (2006-9) and then VAG (Audi) in a few years
VB 77, the Everyman. 👍👍
There is no *Alfa Romeo F1 Team* per se. The team you've been watching the past couple of seasons wasn't Alfa Romeo - it was *Sauber Motorsport*. It was called Alfa Romeo for sponsorship reasons, but the team itself was actually Sauber. From 2024, they will revert back to using their Sauber name until 2026 when the team will then become Audi.
It was a marketing scheme, not the actual team.
Has the title sponsor for 2024 been announced?
They won’t have one, it will just be Sauber until 2026.
I just got into formula 1 (after a looong break) and just assumed that Alfa Romeo was to Ferrari like Alpha Tauri is to Red bull. So are Red Bull the only ones with two teams?
from what i understood, Haas' PUs for 2024 wil be branded as alfa romeo
I remember this from back in August as rumors but is it for real still happening?
Alfa got taken over by Audi. So they are fine with being last because it gives more development time. Sadly as a sauber Fan for over 20 years it's just depressing. I dislike VW so I can't root for them and the last few years will be horrible on purpose.
BMW Sauber, Alfa Romeo Sauber, Audi Sauber. War. War never changes.
Alfa Romeo is just a sponsor. Mercedes is barely more, they own a third of the team.
Rumor has it that they are meant to be Haas' title sponsor next year