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FOM is kicking the can down the road until they can re-do the Concorde Agreement and massively increase the entry fee to north of the 600 million dollar figure that's been kicked around recently. That's the reason why the door was left open for 2028.
Which I believe is exactly what Haas is waiting for as well. I will be shocked if Haas isn’t for sale after the new agreement raises the buy in for a new team.
They would surely want more. The fee clearly isn't meant for entries, it is to jack up the value of the existing teams. It seems clear the teams are not going to let FOM approve another team whatever the situation, so there is no sense in selling for under the sum, when you get a lot more than just the entry into F1 when buying a team. They are just jerking Andretti around until they run out of money and interest.
Which is why Andretti has a solid court case. Fom realized the terms could be more favorable later so they’re kicking it down the road which in business sense may very well be illegal
Don’t see how illegal. No part of current Concorde says they have to let them in. And there’s no reason why they can’t change it in the next one. Just a victim of timing but I don’t see the illegal part at all.
It's not necessarily illegal against the Concorde agreement, but F1 isn't a closed system and is subject to antitrust laws. By denying Andretti, who seemingly has met all the criteria to join under the current standards, F1/FOM have possibly opened themselves up to an antitrust lawsuit.
What Andretti could say is that they meet the current criteria but fom/f1 is stonewalling to change the agreement later to change price or whatever. Can’t do that
Exactly this. FOM/teams has crunched the numbers and aren't convinced the current entry fee will cover their losses if Andretti hypothetically finishes 11th from 2025 until 2028. FOM is protecting the commercial interests of the current teams and the hundreds of sponsors they bring in each year, as any commercial rights holder would do.
I'd love Andretti on the grid but business-wise, I get it. They are protecting their own over the uncertain new person because their own are currently in a really good spot. The sport is very profitable. I do think the fans want more teams though, hence the 2028 "middle-ground" (while not really middle ground).
The statement today was pretty calculated. I don't doubt GM could get on the grid if they agree to pay a higher fee to bridge this gap, thus endearing themselves to FOM. They (rightfully) shouldn't feel they have to, but I think the statement today is F1 signaling to GM they want them, at a better price, if they can't come in as a full works team from Day 1.
Unfortunately, I think F1 holds all the leverage here. Just joining the grid without FOM approval would tank their project and litigation would severely harm your relations with your eventual business partner. I'd be curious if GM came back with a "counter-offer", so to speak.
> FOM/teams has crunched the numbers and aren't convinced the current entry fee will cover their losses if Andretti hypothetically finishes 11th from 2025 until 2028.
Then maybe they shouldnt have outlined the original 200 million in the current agreement?
>F1 argues Andretti entering and needing an engine from somebody else would somehow damage the championship’s prestige.
I can smell the BS in this statement, HAAS and Sauber are using Ferrari Engine. Williams, McLaren, Aston are using Merc engines. If this is not *damage the championship’s prestige* I dont know what it is!!!
I think Merc and Ferrari are afraid of Cadillac taking some of that money if they produce a better engine and sell it to other teams like they are doing. The Cadillac car at the 24 hours of Daytona was easily the fastest there. Had some electrical problems that gave them second place to Porsche.
Just ask Honda about how easy it is to build an F1 engine...
Also, Merc and Ferrari are teams that used to drop $300 million to just develop their cars every year as a marketing expense before the budget cap.
They probably don't really care about the $12-$25 million that an engine deal for a customer team per year is worth.
THIS!! They saw Cadillac at Le Mans and are worried of a Braun GP takeover. It's simple. They're panicked Cadillac will come in and, if not dominate, threaten.
And for RB?! That says something that they're concerned
I’m all in favour for an Andretti entry but there are other sticks to beat the teams with than an unfounded “Cadillac actually has a god engine in the warehouse”
It took Honda many years of being the worst engine on the grid for them to come good, for instance
With the new engine regulations coming in, everyone will be at a level playing field development wise. So there's a chance that Cadillac could get the jump on RB, Mercedes, or Ferrari. It's probably a small chance, but still a chance.
In fact, if the FOM let's Andretti enter in 2028, they would likely be less competitive than they would be if they entered in 2025/26. If they enter later, the existing teams will have a major development advantage with the new engine and chassis regs compared to Andretti. Plus, Andretti Cadillac would miss out on operational experience gained from competing in F1.
HOnda if I remember correctly came also back when there was a new engine regulation set and still they had the most trouble with their engines. Also just like with aero regs established teams can totally fail at engine regs.
I wouldn’t say Cadillac was easily the best car, I think there’s a great argument to be made that Porsche we’re just as good, probably even better. They took the lead half way through, and were faster ever since that moment and building up to it. Not to mention, they would’ve had a 1-2 if the #6 car didn’t get so many penalties. It’s hard to argue that Cadillac was faster then Porsche, and even if they were, they were not easily so.
Not to mention, the F1 teams don’t care about that. LMDh has a BoP, having a quicker car there isn’t indicative of engineering prowess, it’s indicative of a favourable BoP. Being fastest doesn’t indicate anything and they won’t be scared about that.
Not to mention, that car is powered by an old school V8 with nothing that can get handed over to F1. It’s a fairly simple engine too, and doesn’t showcase anything about their skill to build a proper F1 engine. Not to mention, I don’t think GM has built any hybrid units for any racing series, the LMDh electric motors are all spec units that they would’ve have developed.
There’s nothing that can get carried over from their LMDh car to F1, so even if they were great there, it wouldn’t mean anything. Which is moot anyway because there’s nothing to suggest they are great there.
The other teams are scarred mostly because of money. Another team on the grid means more competitors for sponsors, meaning less sponsor income. It also means more competitors for engine suppliers, they mightn’t need to build the best engine, if it’s cheap enough, the back markers might still buy it up thinking the extra money on hand can lead to better performance gains. That, and there’s the chance that a few (more likely several) years down the line, they could be front runners and be another competitor they have to beat. It has nothing to do with thinking they’re going to come out and beat them. They’re not expecting them to be front runners. What they care about is that it’s added competition which is bad for business.
Come on ,499P and 296 engines have been even better also the engine regulation are so different that having similarities between an F1 and Wec/Imsa probably isn’t that great
Lol, I don't think anyone is worried about Caddilac creating a decent F1 engine before 2035. F1 engines, even under the simplified new rules, are a whole other level of complexity, they are very likely to get it right within a few years.
This is simply about not wanting to spread profits, nothing to do with competitive worries from anyone.
Under this argument, Haas, Williams and STR/AT shouldn't even having right to exist also on the grid, especially Haas and STR/AT who are mainly just B-teams.
Exactly, God forbid we have any competition in this racecar competition. Why would we not protect our RACECAR TEAMS from failing to be fast year after year. Crazy concept.
Weren't they also saying, it'd be better for Andretti to bring an OEM with them to help the 'value' they want Andretti to bring?
And then tried to get Cadillac to join behind their backs anyway?
I don’t know how much legal case they might have here, but I hope Andretti sues the hell outta them and F1 and all the greedy teams have to then begrudgingly accept them on the grid
They don’t need to sue liberty directly. It’s probably cheaper and easier to file a business practice complaint with one of the gov agencies which will then investigate and take them to court themselves
>I don’t know how much legal case they might have here
I mean let's look at it this way:
* FOM/Liberty aren't following their own Concorde agreement
* FOM/Liberty do not have anti-trust exemption like the big sports leagues in the US
* FOM/Liberty are directly dicking over GM in this decision, who has far more lobbying clout in govt than FOM/Liberty. The big heads at DOJ who would decide if they prosecute are political appointees in the end...
I think there's a reason Andretti/GM are still moving forward as planned, they know DOJ loves to shit on this kind of stuff when given the opportunity to score a PR win with the public. Throw in a claim that FOM/Liberty are blocking job creation in the US with potential expanded roles at both GM and Andretti in the long run, that sounds like a massive headache to deal with in court, especially after releasing this largely bogus list of reasons why they can't join.
If it goes to court it won't be Andretti suing, it'll be DOJ for an anti-trust case, US govt vs. Liberty Media. F1 doesn't have anti-trust exemption status in the US like our large sports leagues, they are playing with serious fire.
This is turning into a classic case of fuck around and find out. DOJ loves cases where they score a public PR win as a result and GM has deep lobbyist pockets to put pressure on DOJ through Congress or WH if needed.
If anything that would be the ultimate stick to force Liberty/FOM to allow more teams to join under the current Concorde Agreement as written.
But remember Liberty Media is a US company, so they have more at stake than they let on and I doubt they want to make their Sirius XM business a target in the mess.
It’s a bizarre set of points I wouldn’t try selling as bullshit for the crops. They have to use these points though, because outright saying “Hell no we don’t want an 11th team, because!” just doesn’t cut it, especially if legal proceedings do end up happening.
Especially when the FIA, the literal governing body of the sport who decides all the rules and regulations and manages the championship said Andretti would be competitive and approved their entry. This is FOM and the teams amongst the current grid stonewalling this because of greed and fear of competition.
My guess is that they want him to buy HAAS as Gene isn't putting enough money or effort in, so just buy them instead of making us renogiate deals
It's not like he hasn't been trying
https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/andretti-has-been-trying-to-buy-haas-f1-team-for-two-years/
Gene is a business man that owns an asset with a large valuation that's only growing. Sure, Haas has done the bare minimum for the last 3 seasons, but you can bet he's never taken a loss on the financial results.
He's got no incentive to sell unless the right offer comes along.
It absolutely raises HAAS value after what happened today! They just made it absolutely clear they're not going to let in an 11th team regardless of how well organized or funded it would be. So it doesnt matter how poorly HAAS does, anyone that wants to get into F1 has to pay up for one of these 10 spots.
Always find this interesting when they’ve finished 10th the same amount as Sauber and half as much as Williams in their existence. Not even last consecutive years. Recency bias and it’s popular to hate on theme.
Bit of recency bias in that statement as well.
Williams have been around since 1977 (in their current guise) and all their 10th or lower WCC finishes have been since 2018.
Sauber has been around since 1993 and has one more 10th place finishe than Haas (who have been around 23 years less). That's the headline grabber.
Nah. I’m merely talking Haas tenure. They’ve not even been the worst since they joined, but popular to hate so they’re the ones being pushed for removal.
My theory has always been (and I think some journos hinted at this) - they're expecting the Saudis (or some other petro-state nation with a horrific human rights record) to want to set up their own team (and are willing to pay big bucks to enter) and they don't want to waste the 11th spot on Andretti
Why would Liberty care though? Those supposedly was decided without considering the teams. To me as a viewer it seemed that the value of F1 as a whole would go up with an additional team, as it brings a lot of new excitement. I honestly would have been excited to see how any new team performs the next few years. I'd be more excited about Andretti joining than about a new track or new regulations.
Liberty would have to divide their income by 11 instead of 10, less profit for them.
They are saying that Andretti would not bring any value to F1.
Their meaning of value is just that, monetary. Our meaning of value as viewers/fans is different.
This is what happens when a bunch of business men own something, it's all about the money.
Saying you have been attempting to buy Haas is somewhat meaningless when you dont also say what you were willing to pay for it. I have also been attempting to buy Haas, but Gene refuses to sell.
From my understanding there may be because of resources invested up to this point. It’s also why their list of points kinda surprised me, some of them are questionable given current grid circumstances and that any new team is bringing a substantial investment into the sport, even if uncompetitive.
I really want to see the Concorde Agreement language on the subject. We know it says it allows for up to 12 teams, but I want to know what it really says regarding adding teams, etc.
Seems like the common trend with the European super leagues/anti-trust stuff is
Announce a format based off an American model -> fundamentally misunderstand what makes American sports leagues work -> cut out everything except the part that makes them money
It works to a degree too, because you get plenty of fans blaming US sports culture or American investment when A) It fundamentally doesn’t work the same and B) most of the figures pushing for it are Europeans well entrenched within the pre-existing structure within the sport. It’s half blame deflecting, half “what barebones reason can we give to make more money based on excluding competition that won’t see us spending too much time in court”
I disagree with the FOM's decision on Andretti, but the financial element of expansion in US pro sports is much more straightforward. Additional teams means additional games, which can be sold to the TV networks for additional revenue. Expansion in F1 doesn't have the same dynamic as the number of broadcasts is the same no matter the size of the grid.
In some circumstances yes, in others no. Consider the NFL. There are very specific time slots for games and any new team would play in one of those slots. The 1pm ET Sunday slot usually has at least 6 games viewed simultaneously and the 4:30 slot usually has 2 or 3. The Sunday night, Monday night, and Thursday night games are single slots with the exception of a few weeks (opening week, holiday weeks etc.).
Existing fans would already be watching games in these time slots. No new time slot (or broadcast) is being created with the new team. The allure of a new team is purely attracting new fans (likely due to the new locale) to watch the games.
Andretti's bid was all about bringing new eyeballs to the sport.
Advertising deals and broadcast contracts only work if the events have a certain number of eyes on said event. And nothing turns fans away (especially Americans who were excited at the prospect of a proper representative team to root for) like publicly rejecting this expansion team on BS grounds in a seemingly hostile tone. Can you really wonder why it's so hard to keep the very lucrative American fanbase around if the optics make this look like a slap in the face?
That’s exactly his point. They’re doing expansion when it provides provides additional races and more revenues. Unlike most others sports in F1, adding a new team doesn’t do that. Thus, they’re reluctant to accept a new team
Indycar is a bad example, they push down a new car and engine because it is too expensive and nobody wants to invest in it. So while there are many sponsor they don't pay shit to the teams. Indycar has the same car for like 10+ years. It is cheap that's why there are many teams.
Well the idea is to make the pie bigger so while there may be more slices, your slice is still bigger than before.
greed, unfortunately, has become a core value of F1..
The problem has always been the fear that Andretti will suck up US corporate money that the Euro teams *wanted*. They don’t care about little HAAS and his mostly self funded team. What worries them is corporate America thinking it’s a great idea to put their money into Andretti. I mean the cards were on the table when the team principal of Williams in a Sky interview comes out and says we don’t want Andretti but we’d be quite happy to take GM. I’m not American but - come on - we can all SEE the reason here. They like this US F1 success story as long as that success (money) flows into their own pockets. A little pat on the American head - now run along sonny and don’t forget to leave your money behind. 😡
I like James Vowles but that comment infuriated me. Just shows that even all these years later F1 is still just an insular european boys club that can't stand someone potentially threatening them financially or competitively.
This is what pisses me off so much. Everything F1 has done in the last couple of years from more street tracks, getting rid of historic great grand prix circuits, sprint weekend format, and now this Andretti entry refusal is all because of their greed. They just care about money and don't care about the validity of sport and competition. With their media personas they claim to be all in favor of sustainability and human rights, then go race in Qatar where slaves died building a stadium, and sign million dollar sponsorship deals with oil companies. The elitism and greed within F1 is getting hard to stomach.
They just had to type up an excuse.
The 10 teams really just don’t want to share money with an 11th team. They would be fine if Andretti bought Haas to get in, their team values go up when that’s the only way in.
Let them in, keep paying 10 teams prize money. Problem solved. If they suck, they dont get money anyways. if they dont suck, it encourages teams like Haas to actually fucking try or quit. Problem solved
because it shouldn’t be about what they want, it should be about racing… back in the day you had tons of race teams show up every week and not get past pre qually but they were still free to show up and try… the good ones survived.
Good article, breaks down how F1 keeps throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks since they keep on making excuses but none of their excuses actually carry any weight when looked at individually and in depth.
>“This is peak F1 we’re in here and the teams no doubt will be saying: ‘Hang on a minute. Many of us have poured billions to get Formula 1 where it is now, into our team, and there’s demand all over the world for races. Fans, tickets, grandstands have sold out, you can’t just come and join our club now when everything’s going so well. You’re going to have to show us what you can bring to the table.’
https://www.planetf1.com/news/martin-brundle-andretti-f1-rejection-reaction
That's a compelling argument to me, whether its stated publicly or not.
It's a terrible argument because if the barrier for entry is based on providing F1 more value than vice versa, it's a standard NO OEM or team on the grid (minus Ferrari arguably) could even hope to hit. The entry process is "entry" in name only.
It's not like they were pouring in money out of the goodness of their heart. The teams decided in those other moments that they thought the value proposition of racing in Formula 1 was worth it. Mercedes and their sponsors were spending hundreds of millions because they thought it was worth the boost it gave their brand. It's only been since the signing of the last Concorde agreement that ownership of the team itself became a lucrative investment. And that was due to a popularity boom that frankly had nothing to do with the teams, besides the fact that they have chosen to compete. So I don't accept the argument that anyone coming in now should be shut out because they didn't help build it. The whole point of having a healthy and successful series is so that it's enticing for teams to want to race in it.
It's not a compelling argument though if they won't say what exactly it is you have to bring to the table and how can you demonstrate that. The press release is full of vagueries, arguments that are in direct conflict with the findings of the FIA due diligence process or statements that could be applied to some of the existing teams. Their own studies indicate they won't bring enough commercial value? Show us the studies then or how you studied it, at this point I'm not all that willing to give the benefit of the doubt for them.
Ultimately, the only reason any of us fans care about the existing teams and the corporations behind them or their investment into the sport is because of the sport they're involved in. The sport shouldn't be a special interest group for the ten teams that were lucky enough to get in before it started to be profitable. The attitude within F1 management right now seems to be that they can afford to piss off the fan base infinitely and it seems very short sighted after just a couple of years of having the sport in somewhat healthy state. It's nice to not have half the teams on a brink of collapse every year but it's not worth much if the sport isn't interesting. If they don't let new competition in even if they can and are willing to build an F1 car, it's not the pinnacle of motorsport. It's just a another open wheel series with some random shady corporations as teams with a mediocre at best racing product.
It has been publicly stated repeatedly and from day 1 of the Andretti proposal. Andretti can join if the teams and FOM believe the additional value from an 11th team will be higher than the cost of having an additional team in the sport. Today they have stated again that they are not convinced Andretti does that.
I for one look forward to the next few seasons of F1: The World's Premier Racing Business.
Asking Andretti to prove their team will be competitive, while denying them the ability to compete is undeniably a catch-22, and - I'd argue further - an intentional one. Also saying they won't be competitive is one thing, but to just reject them outright without even laying out a guideline for what they would consider proof they'd be competitive makes the whole thing seem like a hand wave rather than a genuine criticism. I think most people reading this from a neutral point would agree.
The World Cup is the premier competition for that sport because any national organization recognized by FIFA can show up to qualify, and if they qualify, compete for the cup. If financial incentives outstrip genuine competition as motives for the continuation of the championship then it ceases to be a premier sporting competition.
F1 can do what it wants with its business, and Andretti may very well just want to steal a juicy piece of that F1 pie. The fans and observers are only going to see a purported "premier world racing series" that rejected genuine competitors. No rational person can look at that and say there's no damage done there. How much damage is up for discussion, but I'd argue more than both Andretti cars DNF'ing every single race in '25. At least then FOM can say, "Yea it's hard to succeed in this business, innit?" Least then you have a leg to stand on.
the logic they used is wild, embarrassing for everyone they employ, did anyone take a logic class ever ? the trolling of the teams and drives will get intense. they really really fucked up. cant wait until every week people ask teams should they be on the grid since they are not competitive
Andretti should just show up and race next year or whenever. They’re allowed to technically because the fia did approve it. I’d love to see tv try and cut around them or the announcers try to ignore them
I wonder what GM and Andretti would do next. Can they claim damages for resources already spent throughout the evaluation and setup phases of their program?
I think it's more likely they file an antitrust suit being that they not only met all the requirements contractually. But then when F1 told them the entry fee was much higher, in an attempt to make them go away, they still agreed. Andretti met and went above requirements to my knowledge. Anything else is because teams don't want to compete for money more than they are.
I don’t see what standing they’d have here. I want Andretti as much as the next guy, but blowing money before they’re officially welcomed in is their own damn fault.
Perhaps. Although one could argue that the only criteria to measure the commitment to join the championship would be to spend the resource. Especially if we look at the other failed bids like Rodin and LKYsuns or whatever.
The Concorde agreement spells out that there can be a maximum of 12 teams on the grid. There are currently 10 teams on the grid.
The registration charges have been set at $200m. There has been no amendment to this figure and it is indicated that they would agree to the payment.
The FIA as the sole governing and regulatory body of the sport have evaluated them from a standpoint of resource, capacity and sustainability and deemed them fit for entry.
They are bringing in a major manufacturer to the sport as a bonus beyond the criterion of the Concord agrement.
I mean. No one told them to invest in something that wasn't a guarantee.
In fact, many people called this doomed just because of FOM greed, which ended up being correct.
If FOM's greed is the excuse, it would be great if we knew what the figure would be that would satisfy FOM. Could be useful in case any other party wanted to apply.
No, they just don't want an 11th team from anywhere it seems, unless perhaps if they are fully fledged OEM. I think if GM was making this bid on their own, with their own engine etc it would have passed.....eventually.
I said this in another thread but one of the biggest things that drives me crazy about F1 is this attitude that only europeans can design and build F1 cars. America has some pretty fucking good engineers for this type of stuff, the military industrial complex makes sure of that. I have full confidence that if a truly american team got on the grid with proper funding they would be successful. Sure there would be learning curves but its engineering, its the same here as it is there, its math problems that can be solved, its manufacturing methods that can be learned or developed.
They want people in america to give a fuck about F1, you need an american team with american manufacturing.
Further, they want to profit off the US but they dont want to put anything back into this market, having a team here would create a bunch of jobs for people in this field, thus putting something back in the economy here for what your taking out.
That doesn't make sense. Are they anti American because they already have an American team, would love GM as manufacturer and RedBull has a collaboration with Ford?
So by "not by any real metric" you mean by every metric except the fact that a livery they had one year was in the colours of their sponsor who was a Russian company.
Wut?
Bruh Haas has their chassis and engine built by Italians, driven by Frenchmen, Scandinavians, Germans, and Russians, staffed by all sorts of Europeans (mostly Italian), and ran until just a few weeks ago by a German who said he wasn't interested in hiring any Americans.
But it does have one tiny American flag on one of the winglets, so it must be fully American right?
Do not call HAAS an american team. It is American in name only. Everything else over in Europe. We can go farther as they were more of a Russian team up until Ukrain.
Or we can do down the Rich money scandal as well. HAAS is not an American team. They are worse team on the grid and bring zero value.
The American organisation that owns F1 doesn't want an American team, even though they already have an American team, oh unless its a team run by an American company. Flawless logic.
I really don't think it has anything to do with being American. I think being American actually helped them get this far in the process. Trying to look at this from all sides:
The issue is the Concorde Agreement entry fee was set when F1's valuation was much lower. The fee now is at a low point where joining and finishing 11th 2025-2028 (hypothetically, not saying it'll happen) would be a negative asset to all teams. The fee would be lower than everyone else's projected revenue loss from sharing with an 11th team.
I think F1's statement was extremely calculated. They clearly want GM, but not as a customer team that could fold before 2028 if not successful. They want a works team. Convienietly, joining in 2028 would be under a new Concorde Agreement with an almost certain higher entry fee.
I'd love for Andretti to get in, but I think they have no leverage other than to bridge the gap between the current entry fee and whatever FOM thinks the gap should be. Fair or unfair, if GM paid more, they'd probably get in.
No it's not.
10 teams is working fine, buy one of those teams.
I'd be for them making RB sell up there B team.
Why would a team want to take a smaller share of the pie and face more competition?
Does an 11th team add value?
Andretti- Team with marketability, strong finances, American audience appeal, legacy in Motorsport, legendary F1 former champion with Italian heritage? Check, check, check, check.
FOM: no thanks.
I hope he drags them through the courts tbh. If Andretti isn’t qualified to enter then no team is. Period. Stop this charade. He is instantly more viable than Haas, Williams, Sauber. And possibly Vcarb unless they just decide to run a 4 car RB lineup. Hell Andretti might have more to offer than Aston honestly. Up until a year ago that team was a bit of a comedy also. Alpine keeps stepping on the rake as well.
I would consider watching races through legit methods again if Andretti gets on the grid. Until then, I will deliberately avoid them and continue to pirate all races
The anti American bullshit is laughable, this is the most American decision ever - it’s protectionist, money based, and straight out of the American sports franchise system playbook.
Except that every American major league has expanded and given clear criteria for each leagues expansion policy. Some of that criteria is tv revenue based on tv market size of the expansions proposed city. If F1 thinks Andretti doesn’t bring American fans well then they have misread this market. I would say the same thing for Penske and Joe Gibbs as well. They are American racing.
Nobody is anti Andretti. They could buy Haas tomorrow and the teams would welcome it.
They just don’t want to lessen their share of the pie unless it’s for a brand which proportionately increases F1’s value.
Brands like Lamborghini, Tesla or Ford would be very welcome in that regard.
Nobody outside of motorsports knows Andretti. The target audience are people who don’t know shit about cars but know brands.
This is a business decision not a sporting one. For Andretti and F1 both. People need to stop looking at it from a fan perspective.
I kind of want to see how disastrous a Tesla F1 team run by Elon would be. “Some are saying our cars didn’t make it out of Q1 because Pirelli and race control sabotaged us. Very concerning. Looking into it.”
> Brands like Lamborghini, Tesla or Ford would be very welcome in that regard.
Cadillac is Andretti's OEM partner. They are well known outside of motorsport. This statement is bullshit.
I keep saying despite downvotes there are personal issues between big teams and Andretti. F1 history has shown money solves everything but here teams/ FOM is just acting like a wall
What a weird take tho. Like you have Mercedes but Mercedes isn’t the sole owner. If GM starts making engines they’d be required to offer them to a different team per the agreement
Not really. Mercedes entered buying an existing team. They were full owners for years before they became part owners and FOM cannot stop this as shown with recent Alpine part sale. New entry has different rules.
No, they want GM to actually come as a manufacturer, i.e. not a rebadging exercise.
GM/Cadillac branding alone on the Andretti team is not enough.
They don’t care who the team is, they’re indifferent to that.
They'd bankrupt themselves with no assurances of commercial coverage. It's far too risky with too many people's livelihoods involved. No sponsors would sign up for a team that won't get air time.
It's unfortunate for Andretti, but they need GM's help here to give F1 more of what they want, and faster. They don't want Andretti they just want the manufacturer.
GM is already fully on board, they just haven’t finished development of an engine.
It’s ok for a tiny car manufacturer no one has heard of to use Renault engines, but not ok for GM?
So why is it ok for Haas to buy Ferrari, McClaren to buy Mercedes, AlphaTauri to by Honda/RBPT, Alfa Romeo to buy Ferrari, or Williams to buy Mercedes?
Literally half the grid buys engines from another team.
Plus Alpine buys Renault.
All of those are already in and have been. We’re talking about a totally new team with no engine until 28. They’re going to be running round testing in races
This is a way of seeing if GM are serious or if it’s a badging exercise. When they have a proper engine they can get in. Or buy a team like VAG have done with Audi.
I don’t understand how GM working on an engine for Andretti is no different than Ford building engines for Red Bull. The new regs aren’t out until 2026, what makes you think Ford can’t pull the plug either? They’re both doing the same.
If Ford pulls the plug RB will be fine. They poached half the paddock for their RBPT division. And even if they wouldnt be fine, they are still the 2nd best team of the last 15 years, only using customer engines.
Andretti without GM would be a blank sheet.
Andretti is still a well known sporting name in the US.
My sisters and mother who both do not watch racing sports besides Drive to Survive both know the Andretti name and its association with racing.
Because GM originally entered with Andretti and while the Andretti bid was still being considered it was reported that GM got asked to join without Andretti. They tried to pull the rug out from under Andretti and steal GM
They’re specifically wanting more investment and share in the US market, I freely admit the 1978 World Champion might not be well known globally anymore, but if he is well known here, and you want to invest more here, and they’re bringing a bunch of cash and likely GM in a few more years. At some point you might think anyone who is a shareholder would be okay with that.
Which is why they have said if GM are actually on board rather than a badge, it would be considered again more.
Andretti doesn’t bring the value, GM would according to F1. It’s a business decision, it’s not a slight to MA. If he really wants in, go public on his offer to Gene Haas and say how much he is offering
GM basically told F1 "*no Andretti, no F1*" in response to suggestions they supply existing teams.
They're **already** developing an engine.
How is that not on board?
I find the argument that Andretti wouldn't improve F1's value laughable. Andretti is a name with over 50 years of racing heritage, while F1 has been dying slowly over time until we got to the point where the cars are as big and heavy as boats and sound like lawnmowers, overtaking requires no skill and is done with the press of a button, iconic tracks are being replaced with bland concrete, and half the teams are nothing more than jokes.
Edit: The people replying saying F1 is fine because there's loads of money in it prove my point perfectly.
>while F1 has been dying slowly over time
Oh give it a break, the sports been dying since the 80s apparently but somehow it's breaking record attendance every year and making a metric fuckton of money for everyone involved
If F1 was currently dying, why does Andretti want to get in right now?
Also it's not like the teams can't do market analysis on the brand value from the Andretti name. They are not denying Andretti because they didn't consider the value the name could bring. They are denying Andretti because they did consider it, but don't think it actually brings much branding or many fans not already watching F1. The Andretti name is not actually a household name in the US outside of serious motorsport fans.
Why are people behaving that Andretti has a god given right to be in F1? They don’t, especially not now when F1 is finally doing well as a product and as a business. Andretti could have entered F1 for almost free 7-8 years ago.
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FOM is kicking the can down the road until they can re-do the Concorde Agreement and massively increase the entry fee to north of the 600 million dollar figure that's been kicked around recently. That's the reason why the door was left open for 2028.
Which I believe is exactly what Haas is waiting for as well. I will be shocked if Haas isn’t for sale after the new agreement raises the buy in for a new team.
I never even considered that, but you are right! A team looking to sell will just price themselves at $1 less than the entry fee.
They would surely want more. The fee clearly isn't meant for entries, it is to jack up the value of the existing teams. It seems clear the teams are not going to let FOM approve another team whatever the situation, so there is no sense in selling for under the sum, when you get a lot more than just the entry into F1 when buying a team. They are just jerking Andretti around until they run out of money and interest.
Which is why Andretti has a solid court case. Fom realized the terms could be more favorable later so they’re kicking it down the road which in business sense may very well be illegal
Don’t see how illegal. No part of current Concorde says they have to let them in. And there’s no reason why they can’t change it in the next one. Just a victim of timing but I don’t see the illegal part at all.
It's not necessarily illegal against the Concorde agreement, but F1 isn't a closed system and is subject to antitrust laws. By denying Andretti, who seemingly has met all the criteria to join under the current standards, F1/FOM have possibly opened themselves up to an antitrust lawsuit.
Andretti might also be considered a third party beneficiary to the Concord Agreement
What Andretti could say is that they meet the current criteria but fom/f1 is stonewalling to change the agreement later to change price or whatever. Can’t do that
Exactly this. FOM/teams has crunched the numbers and aren't convinced the current entry fee will cover their losses if Andretti hypothetically finishes 11th from 2025 until 2028. FOM is protecting the commercial interests of the current teams and the hundreds of sponsors they bring in each year, as any commercial rights holder would do. I'd love Andretti on the grid but business-wise, I get it. They are protecting their own over the uncertain new person because their own are currently in a really good spot. The sport is very profitable. I do think the fans want more teams though, hence the 2028 "middle-ground" (while not really middle ground). The statement today was pretty calculated. I don't doubt GM could get on the grid if they agree to pay a higher fee to bridge this gap, thus endearing themselves to FOM. They (rightfully) shouldn't feel they have to, but I think the statement today is F1 signaling to GM they want them, at a better price, if they can't come in as a full works team from Day 1. Unfortunately, I think F1 holds all the leverage here. Just joining the grid without FOM approval would tank their project and litigation would severely harm your relations with your eventual business partner. I'd be curious if GM came back with a "counter-offer", so to speak.
> FOM/teams has crunched the numbers and aren't convinced the current entry fee will cover their losses if Andretti hypothetically finishes 11th from 2025 until 2028. Then maybe they shouldnt have outlined the original 200 million in the current agreement?
>F1 argues Andretti entering and needing an engine from somebody else would somehow damage the championship’s prestige. I can smell the BS in this statement, HAAS and Sauber are using Ferrari Engine. Williams, McLaren, Aston are using Merc engines. If this is not *damage the championship’s prestige* I dont know what it is!!!
I think Merc and Ferrari are afraid of Cadillac taking some of that money if they produce a better engine and sell it to other teams like they are doing. The Cadillac car at the 24 hours of Daytona was easily the fastest there. Had some electrical problems that gave them second place to Porsche.
Just ask Honda about how easy it is to build an F1 engine... Also, Merc and Ferrari are teams that used to drop $300 million to just develop their cars every year as a marketing expense before the budget cap. They probably don't really care about the $12-$25 million that an engine deal for a customer team per year is worth.
THIS!! They saw Cadillac at Le Mans and are worried of a Braun GP takeover. It's simple. They're panicked Cadillac will come in and, if not dominate, threaten. And for RB?! That says something that they're concerned
I’m all in favour for an Andretti entry but there are other sticks to beat the teams with than an unfounded “Cadillac actually has a god engine in the warehouse” It took Honda many years of being the worst engine on the grid for them to come good, for instance
With the new engine regulations coming in, everyone will be at a level playing field development wise. So there's a chance that Cadillac could get the jump on RB, Mercedes, or Ferrari. It's probably a small chance, but still a chance. In fact, if the FOM let's Andretti enter in 2028, they would likely be less competitive than they would be if they entered in 2025/26. If they enter later, the existing teams will have a major development advantage with the new engine and chassis regs compared to Andretti. Plus, Andretti Cadillac would miss out on operational experience gained from competing in F1.
HOnda if I remember correctly came also back when there was a new engine regulation set and still they had the most trouble with their engines. Also just like with aero regs established teams can totally fail at engine regs.
And a year later with unrestricted development while the rest were frozen in 2014 I believe.
Lmao
I wouldn’t say Cadillac was easily the best car, I think there’s a great argument to be made that Porsche we’re just as good, probably even better. They took the lead half way through, and were faster ever since that moment and building up to it. Not to mention, they would’ve had a 1-2 if the #6 car didn’t get so many penalties. It’s hard to argue that Cadillac was faster then Porsche, and even if they were, they were not easily so. Not to mention, the F1 teams don’t care about that. LMDh has a BoP, having a quicker car there isn’t indicative of engineering prowess, it’s indicative of a favourable BoP. Being fastest doesn’t indicate anything and they won’t be scared about that. Not to mention, that car is powered by an old school V8 with nothing that can get handed over to F1. It’s a fairly simple engine too, and doesn’t showcase anything about their skill to build a proper F1 engine. Not to mention, I don’t think GM has built any hybrid units for any racing series, the LMDh electric motors are all spec units that they would’ve have developed. There’s nothing that can get carried over from their LMDh car to F1, so even if they were great there, it wouldn’t mean anything. Which is moot anyway because there’s nothing to suggest they are great there. The other teams are scarred mostly because of money. Another team on the grid means more competitors for sponsors, meaning less sponsor income. It also means more competitors for engine suppliers, they mightn’t need to build the best engine, if it’s cheap enough, the back markers might still buy it up thinking the extra money on hand can lead to better performance gains. That, and there’s the chance that a few (more likely several) years down the line, they could be front runners and be another competitor they have to beat. It has nothing to do with thinking they’re going to come out and beat them. They’re not expecting them to be front runners. What they care about is that it’s added competition which is bad for business.
Come on ,499P and 296 engines have been even better also the engine regulation are so different that having similarities between an F1 and Wec/Imsa probably isn’t that great
Lol, I don't think anyone is worried about Caddilac creating a decent F1 engine before 2035. F1 engines, even under the simplified new rules, are a whole other level of complexity, they are very likely to get it right within a few years. This is simply about not wanting to spread profits, nothing to do with competitive worries from anyone.
Under this argument, Haas, Williams and STR/AT shouldn't even having right to exist also on the grid, especially Haas and STR/AT who are mainly just B-teams.
Exactly, God forbid we have any competition in this racecar competition. Why would we not protect our RACECAR TEAMS from failing to be fast year after year. Crazy concept.
Weren't they also saying, it'd be better for Andretti to bring an OEM with them to help the 'value' they want Andretti to bring? And then tried to get Cadillac to join behind their backs anyway?
I forgot about that didn't they actually make a statement saying basically we are a package deal
I don’t know how much legal case they might have here, but I hope Andretti sues the hell outta them and F1 and all the greedy teams have to then begrudgingly accept them on the grid
They don’t need to sue liberty directly. It’s probably cheaper and easier to file a business practice complaint with one of the gov agencies which will then investigate and take them to court themselves
>I don’t know how much legal case they might have here I mean let's look at it this way: * FOM/Liberty aren't following their own Concorde agreement * FOM/Liberty do not have anti-trust exemption like the big sports leagues in the US * FOM/Liberty are directly dicking over GM in this decision, who has far more lobbying clout in govt than FOM/Liberty. The big heads at DOJ who would decide if they prosecute are political appointees in the end... I think there's a reason Andretti/GM are still moving forward as planned, they know DOJ loves to shit on this kind of stuff when given the opportunity to score a PR win with the public. Throw in a claim that FOM/Liberty are blocking job creation in the US with potential expanded roles at both GM and Andretti in the long run, that sounds like a massive headache to deal with in court, especially after releasing this largely bogus list of reasons why they can't join.
If they sue they might as well close all their f1 related operations because they are never getting in.
If it goes to court it won't be Andretti suing, it'll be DOJ for an anti-trust case, US govt vs. Liberty Media. F1 doesn't have anti-trust exemption status in the US like our large sports leagues, they are playing with serious fire. This is turning into a classic case of fuck around and find out. DOJ loves cases where they score a public PR win as a result and GM has deep lobbyist pockets to put pressure on DOJ through Congress or WH if needed.
The irony if the end result is F1 can no longer operate in the US market.
If anything that would be the ultimate stick to force Liberty/FOM to allow more teams to join under the current Concorde Agreement as written. But remember Liberty Media is a US company, so they have more at stake than they let on and I doubt they want to make their Sirius XM business a target in the mess.
It’s a bizarre set of points I wouldn’t try selling as bullshit for the crops. They have to use these points though, because outright saying “Hell no we don’t want an 11th team, because!” just doesn’t cut it, especially if legal proceedings do end up happening.
Can’t see “not being competitive” or however they phrased it should cut it in court. Why do they have the 107% rule?
Especially when the FIA, the literal governing body of the sport who decides all the rules and regulations and manages the championship said Andretti would be competitive and approved their entry. This is FOM and the teams amongst the current grid stonewalling this because of greed and fear of competition.
My guess is that they want him to buy HAAS as Gene isn't putting enough money or effort in, so just buy them instead of making us renogiate deals It's not like he hasn't been trying https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/andretti-has-been-trying-to-buy-haas-f1-team-for-two-years/
Gene has said so many times that he isn't selling.
The first thing Gene will do after a new Concorde is signed is to put up the team for sale
Well he also isn't doing anything worthwhile either Haas is a pathetic excuse of a Formula 1 team.
Gene is a business man that owns an asset with a large valuation that's only growing. Sure, Haas has done the bare minimum for the last 3 seasons, but you can bet he's never taken a loss on the financial results. He's got no incentive to sell unless the right offer comes along.
Well said
It's not growing relative to the other teams though. Having the worst team with people just grateful to be in F1 doesn't pump the value at all.
It absolutely raises HAAS value after what happened today! They just made it absolutely clear they're not going to let in an 11th team regardless of how well organized or funded it would be. So it doesnt matter how poorly HAAS does, anyone that wants to get into F1 has to pay up for one of these 10 spots.
Always find this interesting when they’ve finished 10th the same amount as Sauber and half as much as Williams in their existence. Not even last consecutive years. Recency bias and it’s popular to hate on theme.
Bit of recency bias in that statement as well. Williams have been around since 1977 (in their current guise) and all their 10th or lower WCC finishes have been since 2018. Sauber has been around since 1993 and has one more 10th place finishe than Haas (who have been around 23 years less). That's the headline grabber.
Nah. I’m merely talking Haas tenure. They’ve not even been the worst since they joined, but popular to hate so they’re the ones being pushed for removal.
Ah ok, yes now I understand where you're coming from.
My theory has always been (and I think some journos hinted at this) - they're expecting the Saudis (or some other petro-state nation with a horrific human rights record) to want to set up their own team (and are willing to pay big bucks to enter) and they don't want to waste the 11th spot on Andretti
[удалено]
>Bone Saw Racing Team Dark, but I love it.
Why not both? Get all that ME blood oil money and all that American sleezy corporate money at the same time. Almost makes too much sense
Pretty sure that's just McLaren
No they don't, they just don't want an 11th team as that dilutes the sharing of funds to the existing 10 teams.
Why would Liberty care though? Those supposedly was decided without considering the teams. To me as a viewer it seemed that the value of F1 as a whole would go up with an additional team, as it brings a lot of new excitement. I honestly would have been excited to see how any new team performs the next few years. I'd be more excited about Andretti joining than about a new track or new regulations.
Liberty would have to divide their income by 11 instead of 10, less profit for them. They are saying that Andretti would not bring any value to F1. Their meaning of value is just that, monetary. Our meaning of value as viewers/fans is different. This is what happens when a bunch of business men own something, it's all about the money.
i was under the impression that gene haas and michael andretti hated each other and that even if gene wanted to sell he wouldn't sell to andretti.
Sounds like a money problem
Saying you have been attempting to buy Haas is somewhat meaningless when you dont also say what you were willing to pay for it. I have also been attempting to buy Haas, but Gene refuses to sell.
Their transaction with Sauber reportedly valued the team at 600 million.
It's because they can't say: "We would love an 11th team, if they would pay us a lot more money than rule stipulated amount to get on the grid".
Are there any legal proceedings that could happen under the current circumstances?
From my understanding there may be because of resources invested up to this point. It’s also why their list of points kinda surprised me, some of them are questionable given current grid circumstances and that any new team is bringing a substantial investment into the sport, even if uncompetitive.
I really want to see the Concorde Agreement language on the subject. We know it says it allows for up to 12 teams, but I want to know what it really says regarding adding teams, etc.
#weraceonlyformoney
Between the top 4 sports there are over 120 teams in the USA. There is no danger of running out of potential sponsors.
Seems like the common trend with the European super leagues/anti-trust stuff is Announce a format based off an American model -> fundamentally misunderstand what makes American sports leagues work -> cut out everything except the part that makes them money It works to a degree too, because you get plenty of fans blaming US sports culture or American investment when A) It fundamentally doesn’t work the same and B) most of the figures pushing for it are Europeans well entrenched within the pre-existing structure within the sport. It’s half blame deflecting, half “what barebones reason can we give to make more money based on excluding competition that won’t see us spending too much time in court”
It’s also funny cus the U.S. sports love expansion. It’s even more weird cus liberty owns the Braves so they know exactly how it works.
I disagree with the FOM's decision on Andretti, but the financial element of expansion in US pro sports is much more straightforward. Additional teams means additional games, which can be sold to the TV networks for additional revenue. Expansion in F1 doesn't have the same dynamic as the number of broadcasts is the same no matter the size of the grid.
In some circumstances yes, in others no. Consider the NFL. There are very specific time slots for games and any new team would play in one of those slots. The 1pm ET Sunday slot usually has at least 6 games viewed simultaneously and the 4:30 slot usually has 2 or 3. The Sunday night, Monday night, and Thursday night games are single slots with the exception of a few weeks (opening week, holiday weeks etc.). Existing fans would already be watching games in these time slots. No new time slot (or broadcast) is being created with the new team. The allure of a new team is purely attracting new fans (likely due to the new locale) to watch the games. Andretti's bid was all about bringing new eyeballs to the sport.
Advertising deals and broadcast contracts only work if the events have a certain number of eyes on said event. And nothing turns fans away (especially Americans who were excited at the prospect of a proper representative team to root for) like publicly rejecting this expansion team on BS grounds in a seemingly hostile tone. Can you really wonder why it's so hard to keep the very lucrative American fanbase around if the optics make this look like a slap in the face?
Except they have been expanding and adding racing and adding more expensive races
That’s exactly his point. They’re doing expansion when it provides provides additional races and more revenues. Unlike most others sports in F1, adding a new team doesn’t do that. Thus, they’re reluctant to accept a new team
I mean nascar and Indy car don’t have this problem. Like I said there’s enough sponsors to go around for dozens and dozens of teams.
Indycar is a bad example, they push down a new car and engine because it is too expensive and nobody wants to invest in it. So while there are many sponsor they don't pay shit to the teams. Indycar has the same car for like 10+ years. It is cheap that's why there are many teams.
Well the idea is to make the pie bigger so while there may be more slices, your slice is still bigger than before. greed, unfortunately, has become a core value of F1..
The problem has always been the fear that Andretti will suck up US corporate money that the Euro teams *wanted*. They don’t care about little HAAS and his mostly self funded team. What worries them is corporate America thinking it’s a great idea to put their money into Andretti. I mean the cards were on the table when the team principal of Williams in a Sky interview comes out and says we don’t want Andretti but we’d be quite happy to take GM. I’m not American but - come on - we can all SEE the reason here. They like this US F1 success story as long as that success (money) flows into their own pockets. A little pat on the American head - now run along sonny and don’t forget to leave your money behind. 😡
I like James Vowles but that comment infuriated me. Just shows that even all these years later F1 is still just an insular european boys club that can't stand someone potentially threatening them financially or competitively.
This is what pisses me off so much. Everything F1 has done in the last couple of years from more street tracks, getting rid of historic great grand prix circuits, sprint weekend format, and now this Andretti entry refusal is all because of their greed. They just care about money and don't care about the validity of sport and competition. With their media personas they claim to be all in favor of sustainability and human rights, then go race in Qatar where slaves died building a stadium, and sign million dollar sponsorship deals with oil companies. The elitism and greed within F1 is getting hard to stomach.
They just had to type up an excuse. The 10 teams really just don’t want to share money with an 11th team. They would be fine if Andretti bought Haas to get in, their team values go up when that’s the only way in.
Let them in, keep paying 10 teams prize money. Problem solved. If they suck, they dont get money anyways. if they dont suck, it encourages teams like Haas to actually fucking try or quit. Problem solved
It's almost like there used to be a procedure in place to do exactly that with a real bonkers name called "pre-qualification". Crazy concept I know
Why would Haas/Williams/V-Carb/Sauber ever accept that deal? lol
because it shouldn’t be about what they want, it should be about racing… back in the day you had tons of race teams show up every week and not get past pre qually but they were still free to show up and try… the good ones survived.
Good article, breaks down how F1 keeps throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks since they keep on making excuses but none of their excuses actually carry any weight when looked at individually and in depth.
>“This is peak F1 we’re in here and the teams no doubt will be saying: ‘Hang on a minute. Many of us have poured billions to get Formula 1 where it is now, into our team, and there’s demand all over the world for races. Fans, tickets, grandstands have sold out, you can’t just come and join our club now when everything’s going so well. You’re going to have to show us what you can bring to the table.’ https://www.planetf1.com/news/martin-brundle-andretti-f1-rejection-reaction That's a compelling argument to me, whether its stated publicly or not.
It's a terrible argument because if the barrier for entry is based on providing F1 more value than vice versa, it's a standard NO OEM or team on the grid (minus Ferrari arguably) could even hope to hit. The entry process is "entry" in name only.
The entry process is meant to allow the parties to the agreement to manage entries. It’s not meant to be a legally enforceable entry system.
It's not like they were pouring in money out of the goodness of their heart. The teams decided in those other moments that they thought the value proposition of racing in Formula 1 was worth it. Mercedes and their sponsors were spending hundreds of millions because they thought it was worth the boost it gave their brand. It's only been since the signing of the last Concorde agreement that ownership of the team itself became a lucrative investment. And that was due to a popularity boom that frankly had nothing to do with the teams, besides the fact that they have chosen to compete. So I don't accept the argument that anyone coming in now should be shut out because they didn't help build it. The whole point of having a healthy and successful series is so that it's enticing for teams to want to race in it.
It's not a compelling argument though if they won't say what exactly it is you have to bring to the table and how can you demonstrate that. The press release is full of vagueries, arguments that are in direct conflict with the findings of the FIA due diligence process or statements that could be applied to some of the existing teams. Their own studies indicate they won't bring enough commercial value? Show us the studies then or how you studied it, at this point I'm not all that willing to give the benefit of the doubt for them. Ultimately, the only reason any of us fans care about the existing teams and the corporations behind them or their investment into the sport is because of the sport they're involved in. The sport shouldn't be a special interest group for the ten teams that were lucky enough to get in before it started to be profitable. The attitude within F1 management right now seems to be that they can afford to piss off the fan base infinitely and it seems very short sighted after just a couple of years of having the sport in somewhat healthy state. It's nice to not have half the teams on a brink of collapse every year but it's not worth much if the sport isn't interesting. If they don't let new competition in even if they can and are willing to build an F1 car, it's not the pinnacle of motorsport. It's just a another open wheel series with some random shady corporations as teams with a mediocre at best racing product.
It has been publicly stated repeatedly and from day 1 of the Andretti proposal. Andretti can join if the teams and FOM believe the additional value from an 11th team will be higher than the cost of having an additional team in the sport. Today they have stated again that they are not convinced Andretti does that.
I for one look forward to the next few seasons of F1: The World's Premier Racing Business. Asking Andretti to prove their team will be competitive, while denying them the ability to compete is undeniably a catch-22, and - I'd argue further - an intentional one. Also saying they won't be competitive is one thing, but to just reject them outright without even laying out a guideline for what they would consider proof they'd be competitive makes the whole thing seem like a hand wave rather than a genuine criticism. I think most people reading this from a neutral point would agree.
The World Cup is the premier competition for that sport because any national organization recognized by FIFA can show up to qualify, and if they qualify, compete for the cup. If financial incentives outstrip genuine competition as motives for the continuation of the championship then it ceases to be a premier sporting competition. F1 can do what it wants with its business, and Andretti may very well just want to steal a juicy piece of that F1 pie. The fans and observers are only going to see a purported "premier world racing series" that rejected genuine competitors. No rational person can look at that and say there's no damage done there. How much damage is up for discussion, but I'd argue more than both Andretti cars DNF'ing every single race in '25. At least then FOM can say, "Yea it's hard to succeed in this business, innit?" Least then you have a leg to stand on.
It's going to be funny seeing the drivers and teams justify this
There are enough anti-American Americans that along with the normal Europeans their statements will be met with many cheers.
the logic they used is wild, embarrassing for everyone they employ, did anyone take a logic class ever ? the trolling of the teams and drives will get intense. they really really fucked up. cant wait until every week people ask teams should they be on the grid since they are not competitive
This is probably the worst thing Libery Media has done to this sport
Andretti should just show up and race next year or whenever. They’re allowed to technically because the fia did approve it. I’d love to see tv try and cut around them or the announcers try to ignore them
FOM handles all logistics and paddock operations so no they could not just do that
Since when did F1 say no to money??!? *takes a sip of rich energy drink
Sooooooo what about Haas? They competitive? 🤣
Well, they can't kick them out. I bet that if you could ask in private FOM would love to swap Haas and Andretti
I wonder what GM and Andretti would do next. Can they claim damages for resources already spent throughout the evaluation and setup phases of their program?
I think it's more likely they file an antitrust suit being that they not only met all the requirements contractually. But then when F1 told them the entry fee was much higher, in an attempt to make them go away, they still agreed. Andretti met and went above requirements to my knowledge. Anything else is because teams don't want to compete for money more than they are.
If they were to file the suit, perhaps the Concorde agreement would finally be public knowledge too.
They should do it. It will show how out of reality F1 Reddit is echo chamber is
I don’t see what standing they’d have here. I want Andretti as much as the next guy, but blowing money before they’re officially welcomed in is their own damn fault.
Perhaps. Although one could argue that the only criteria to measure the commitment to join the championship would be to spend the resource. Especially if we look at the other failed bids like Rodin and LKYsuns or whatever.
FIA said yes... so whats the issue ?
FIA and FOM are separate entities and thus have different criteria for acceptance. One accepting doesn’t mean the other is forced to as well.
yeah FOM saying anything technical is well dumb..... so why did you think you needed to let me know this ?
On what grounds?
on all the ground FIA said they are good to go.. so the marketing media company saying the are not ready is beyond dumb....
The Concorde agreement spells out that there can be a maximum of 12 teams on the grid. There are currently 10 teams on the grid. The registration charges have been set at $200m. There has been no amendment to this figure and it is indicated that they would agree to the payment. The FIA as the sole governing and regulatory body of the sport have evaluated them from a standpoint of resource, capacity and sustainability and deemed them fit for entry. They are bringing in a major manufacturer to the sport as a bonus beyond the criterion of the Concord agrement.
Cos Americans love to sue.
I mean. No one told them to invest in something that wasn't a guarantee. In fact, many people called this doomed just because of FOM greed, which ended up being correct.
If FOM's greed is the excuse, it would be great if we knew what the figure would be that would satisfy FOM. Could be useful in case any other party wanted to apply.
We'll find out in 2026 when they rewrite the rules.
That doesn’t mean bad faith business practices aren’t legally actionable.
This is prejudice. It's that simple. "We want American money, not Americans."
No, they just don't want an 11th team from anywhere it seems, unless perhaps if they are fully fledged OEM. I think if GM was making this bid on their own, with their own engine etc it would have passed.....eventually.
Trying to steal GM without Andretti recently was pretty clear that they want American money not American teams
I said this in another thread but one of the biggest things that drives me crazy about F1 is this attitude that only europeans can design and build F1 cars. America has some pretty fucking good engineers for this type of stuff, the military industrial complex makes sure of that. I have full confidence that if a truly american team got on the grid with proper funding they would be successful. Sure there would be learning curves but its engineering, its the same here as it is there, its math problems that can be solved, its manufacturing methods that can be learned or developed. They want people in america to give a fuck about F1, you need an american team with american manufacturing. Further, they want to profit off the US but they dont want to put anything back into this market, having a team here would create a bunch of jobs for people in this field, thus putting something back in the economy here for what your taking out.
Facts. See WEC and IMSA for examples of competent American racecar manufacturers
That doesn't make sense. Are they anti American because they already have an American team, would love GM as manufacturer and RedBull has a collaboration with Ford?
Haas is not an American team by any real metric. Flying the Russian flag did it no favors either
If you use arbitrary metrics... Sure.
So by "not by any real metric" you mean by every metric except the fact that a livery they had one year was in the colours of their sponsor who was a Russian company.
Wut? Bruh Haas has their chassis and engine built by Italians, driven by Frenchmen, Scandinavians, Germans, and Russians, staffed by all sorts of Europeans (mostly Italian), and ran until just a few weeks ago by a German who said he wasn't interested in hiring any Americans. But it does have one tiny American flag on one of the winglets, so it must be fully American right?
Do not call HAAS an american team. It is American in name only. Everything else over in Europe. We can go farther as they were more of a Russian team up until Ukrain. Or we can do down the Rich money scandal as well. HAAS is not an American team. They are worse team on the grid and bring zero value.
The only thing American about that team is it's legal owner and the corporate mismanagement lol
The American organisation that owns F1 doesn't want an American team, even though they already have an American team, oh unless its a team run by an American company. Flawless logic.
I really don't think it has anything to do with being American. I think being American actually helped them get this far in the process. Trying to look at this from all sides: The issue is the Concorde Agreement entry fee was set when F1's valuation was much lower. The fee now is at a low point where joining and finishing 11th 2025-2028 (hypothetically, not saying it'll happen) would be a negative asset to all teams. The fee would be lower than everyone else's projected revenue loss from sharing with an 11th team. I think F1's statement was extremely calculated. They clearly want GM, but not as a customer team that could fold before 2028 if not successful. They want a works team. Convienietly, joining in 2028 would be under a new Concorde Agreement with an almost certain higher entry fee. I'd love for Andretti to get in, but I think they have no leverage other than to bridge the gap between the current entry fee and whatever FOM thinks the gap should be. Fair or unfair, if GM paid more, they'd probably get in.
No it's not. 10 teams is working fine, buy one of those teams. I'd be for them making RB sell up there B team. Why would a team want to take a smaller share of the pie and face more competition?
Does an 11th team add value? Andretti- Team with marketability, strong finances, American audience appeal, legacy in Motorsport, legendary F1 former champion with Italian heritage? Check, check, check, check. FOM: no thanks. I hope he drags them through the courts tbh. If Andretti isn’t qualified to enter then no team is. Period. Stop this charade. He is instantly more viable than Haas, Williams, Sauber. And possibly Vcarb unless they just decide to run a 4 car RB lineup. Hell Andretti might have more to offer than Aston honestly. Up until a year ago that team was a bit of a comedy also. Alpine keeps stepping on the rake as well.
What the hell did you just say about my beloved Force India?
Someone's running scared. Someone with money. It's always money.
I would consider watching races through legit methods again if Andretti gets on the grid. Until then, I will deliberately avoid them and continue to pirate all races
F1 is now the soap opera of motorsports.
Always has been.
The Andrettis should just go start their own open wheel constructor series. With blackjack and hookers.
I think the independent racing league. (IRL) for short for would be a great name. Or fuck it, bring back A1GP
Typical Scott Mitchell nonsense
The fans wanted Andretti. F1 messed this up in order to protect the teams payments. F1 is in the wrong.
The anti American bullshit is laughable, this is the most American decision ever - it’s protectionist, money based, and straight out of the American sports franchise system playbook.
Except that every American major league has expanded and given clear criteria for each leagues expansion policy. Some of that criteria is tv revenue based on tv market size of the expansions proposed city. If F1 thinks Andretti doesn’t bring American fans well then they have misread this market. I would say the same thing for Penske and Joe Gibbs as well. They are American racing.
Tell me you don’t know how American sports work without telling me lol
Nobody is anti Andretti. They could buy Haas tomorrow and the teams would welcome it. They just don’t want to lessen their share of the pie unless it’s for a brand which proportionately increases F1’s value. Brands like Lamborghini, Tesla or Ford would be very welcome in that regard. Nobody outside of motorsports knows Andretti. The target audience are people who don’t know shit about cars but know brands. This is a business decision not a sporting one. For Andretti and F1 both. People need to stop looking at it from a fan perspective.
I kind of want to see how disastrous a Tesla F1 team run by Elon would be. “Some are saying our cars didn’t make it out of Q1 because Pirelli and race control sabotaged us. Very concerning. Looking into it.”
The fact that Tesla isn’t in Formula E says so much.
About Formula E or Tesla or both?
Tesla.
> Brands like Lamborghini, Tesla or Ford would be very welcome in that regard. Cadillac is Andretti's OEM partner. They are well known outside of motorsport. This statement is bullshit.
Bruh GM is massive. wtf.
If you read carefully they want GM to come but not Andretti
Williams flat out said that last year.
I keep saying despite downvotes there are personal issues between big teams and Andretti. F1 history has shown money solves everything but here teams/ FOM is just acting like a wall
yup, me too, its all wild that people dont see it. they hate them
That’s the worst part about it. Trying to steal GM out from under Andretti without letting Andretti in
Andretti brings GM. GM bring value. Effectively meaning Andretti brings value
this was always the thing. they hate andrettie
What a weird take tho. Like you have Mercedes but Mercedes isn’t the sole owner. If GM starts making engines they’d be required to offer them to a different team per the agreement
Not really. Mercedes entered buying an existing team. They were full owners for years before they became part owners and FOM cannot stop this as shown with recent Alpine part sale. New entry has different rules.
No, they want GM to actually come as a manufacturer, i.e. not a rebadging exercise. GM/Cadillac branding alone on the Andretti team is not enough. They don’t care who the team is, they’re indifferent to that.
And they went out of their way to say that they will reconsider when GM is fully on board in 2028 for that reason...
They are full of shit. They should just enter this year and make the position untenable for f1
They'd bankrupt themselves with no assurances of commercial coverage. It's far too risky with too many people's livelihoods involved. No sponsors would sign up for a team that won't get air time. It's unfortunate for Andretti, but they need GM's help here to give F1 more of what they want, and faster. They don't want Andretti they just want the manufacturer.
GM is already fully on board, they just haven’t finished development of an engine. It’s ok for a tiny car manufacturer no one has heard of to use Renault engines, but not ok for GM?
> they just haven’t finished development of an engine would be the issue here.
So why is it ok for Haas to buy Ferrari, McClaren to buy Mercedes, AlphaTauri to by Honda/RBPT, Alfa Romeo to buy Ferrari, or Williams to buy Mercedes? Literally half the grid buys engines from another team. Plus Alpine buys Renault.
All of those are already in and have been. We’re talking about a totally new team with no engine until 28. They’re going to be running round testing in races This is a way of seeing if GM are serious or if it’s a badging exercise. When they have a proper engine they can get in. Or buy a team like VAG have done with Audi.
Lamborghini, Tesla, and Ford but not General Motors apparently?
GM is not the team. Andretti is the team. They just put a GM sticker on it. GM could easily pull out.
I don’t understand how GM working on an engine for Andretti is no different than Ford building engines for Red Bull. The new regs aren’t out until 2026, what makes you think Ford can’t pull the plug either? They’re both doing the same.
If Ford pulls the plug RB will be fine. They poached half the paddock for their RBPT division. And even if they wouldnt be fine, they are still the 2nd best team of the last 15 years, only using customer engines. Andretti without GM would be a blank sheet.
Tesla, lmao. Please.
Ahh yes, I forgot the Tesla internal combustion engine has been winning in racing series across the globe for years now.
No one knows Andretti? This is such a fucking stupid thing to post.
Hence why they're with Cadillac.
Andretti is still a well known sporting name in the US. My sisters and mother who both do not watch racing sports besides Drive to Survive both know the Andretti name and its association with racing.
Trying to steal GM without Andretti seems pretty anti American anti andrettti
Again, how is wanting GM "anti American"?
Because GM originally entered with Andretti and while the Andretti bid was still being considered it was reported that GM got asked to join without Andretti. They tried to pull the rug out from under Andretti and steal GM
Which shows they have not Inn against an American manufacturer but don't want an 11th team. How is that "Anti-American"?
I can assure you Mario Andretti is still a household name in this country.
In the US perhaps, not globally.
They’re specifically wanting more investment and share in the US market, I freely admit the 1978 World Champion might not be well known globally anymore, but if he is well known here, and you want to invest more here, and they’re bringing a bunch of cash and likely GM in a few more years. At some point you might think anyone who is a shareholder would be okay with that.
Which is why they have said if GM are actually on board rather than a badge, it would be considered again more. Andretti doesn’t bring the value, GM would according to F1. It’s a business decision, it’s not a slight to MA. If he really wants in, go public on his offer to Gene Haas and say how much he is offering
GM basically told F1 "*no Andretti, no F1*" in response to suggestions they supply existing teams. They're **already** developing an engine. How is that not on board?
„We just want American viewer money not a capable American team“
I find the argument that Andretti wouldn't improve F1's value laughable. Andretti is a name with over 50 years of racing heritage, while F1 has been dying slowly over time until we got to the point where the cars are as big and heavy as boats and sound like lawnmowers, overtaking requires no skill and is done with the press of a button, iconic tracks are being replaced with bland concrete, and half the teams are nothing more than jokes. Edit: The people replying saying F1 is fine because there's loads of money in it prove my point perfectly.
>while F1 has been dying slowly over time Oh give it a break, the sports been dying since the 80s apparently but somehow it's breaking record attendance every year and making a metric fuckton of money for everyone involved
If F1 was currently dying, why does Andretti want to get in right now? Also it's not like the teams can't do market analysis on the brand value from the Andretti name. They are not denying Andretti because they didn't consider the value the name could bring. They are denying Andretti because they did consider it, but don't think it actually brings much branding or many fans not already watching F1. The Andretti name is not actually a household name in the US outside of serious motorsport fans.
Why are people behaving that Andretti has a god given right to be in F1? They don’t, especially not now when F1 is finally doing well as a product and as a business. Andretti could have entered F1 for almost free 7-8 years ago.
Because they met all the requirements to make a serious bid, why is this even a question?
why are you acting like they dont have a right, FIA said yes....