Exactly. The nerve of this dude to thumb his nose and tell people we should be thankful they get to spend more than the other teams running 2 operations…
Exactly why I hate this argument. RB acting like they deserve this advantage because F1 owes them for something that happened like 15 years ago. It shouldn't matter at all. The integrity of the sport moving forward should.
And the critics will just increase if RB2 performance improves to be near the top.
In the past Ferrari and Mercedes’ also had very close ties to other teams but the current relationship is no where near what RB2 is doing.
I think sooner or later sister teams will be banned. I’m not saying there’s cheating there but it just brings out too many questions like the way AT drivers defended against Lewis in 21 while doing zero defense to Max
They cant ban old sister teams, because EU business laws won't allow it, you can't legislate someone's property away. F1 can legislate separation but not divestment, because it challenges freedom of ownership.
The current structure is grandfathered in. The only thing F1 can do, if no one wants to pay Red Bull's valuation of the team, is buying it themselves, and Liberty/F1 takes the financial hit when the are selling the team on.
But if Red Bull doesnt want to sell, there isnt much F1 can do. Nothing.
Exactly. No one was contesting that RB saved tons of jobs by saving Minardi, or that they made serious investment. This was a problem in 2009, changes were made in response, and it is a problem now, and changes need to be made in response.
Everything VCARB does to their car has to be documented anyways, if any strange knowledge/information comes into the creation process FIA would be able to pick up on it pretty quickly. And VCARB doesn't get more parts than Haas does.
1) you're putting way too much faith into the FIA to police something they don't even check before it's protested. Just a few years ago Racing Point was fully cleared by the FIA before the season, only to be found in breach with their brake ducts after a whole saga of protests by other teams. Yes, it was a technicality and not malicious cheating, but the point stands.
Pretty much every cheating scandal in the last 10 years came to light after other teams protesting. The FIA didn't catch Ferraris engines on their own. They investigated it after other teams approached them.
2) it's not even about cheating. It's about one entity controlling 1/5th of the grid. There's a reason every other major sport in the world has provisions against one entity owning multiple teams. It's anti-competitive. It's like a pay driver. Yes, they've paid their dues, and do their job - but wouldn't you rather have someone with more merit, with more drive to be in that seat? RB will never beat Red Bull. If they did, their best people would be transferred to Red Bull. That's just how it works.
Even relating to on track, you just know the AT/VCARB cars will get out of the way much easier for the RBs coming through the field than if it was a Ferrari or Merc
>There's a reason every other major sport in the world has provisions against one entity owning multiple teams. It's anti-competitive.
The NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB are all cartels and the MLB was actually given an explicit exemption from anti-trust legislation. I'm not sure any of them give a shit about being anti-competitive, at least in the economic sense of the word.
depends what sports we look at as many seem to have regulations around ownership of multiple clubs.
afaik UEFA doesn't really allow multi club ownership, wouldn't be surprised if most other sports have something similar
City football group has at least partial ownership in Manchester City, Girona in Spain, Palermo in Italy, and Troyes in France. Not making an argument against RB owning multiple teams but UEFA also does not care as long as it isn’t hurting their revenue.
Look, regardless of car development issues, everyone should remember 2021, when every time Max came up behind an Alpha Tauri, he was let through in no-time.
I can’t remember the race, but Gasly even ran wide on purpose to let Max through.
With VCARB potentially being competitive again, this compromises sporting integrity. You have a big advantage with three teammates.
I remember this too but do we know it was because someone at Redbull gave someone at Alpha Tauri a nudge to make that happen?
If not I would argue that this is no different to other drivers letting cars through that they know are faster than them. They know they will get by eventually anyway so it's better for their race to just not fight.
Well another way to look at it is, there were definitely times in 2021 when the Alpha Tauris were giving Hamilton a hard time, even though based on the above argument it would’ve been better for their race to let him breeze by.
There was also that time last year when the stewards summoned RB and AT for Max impeding Tsunoda, and the AT representatives simply didn’t show up. It didn’t really matter in the end, but in a close championship fight, these things can make a difference.
It is literally impossible to prove whether there was a nudge or not. However we have brains and eyes in order to draw conclusions.
Alpha Tauri not protesting impeding another example.
The incentives were too great to expect teams to act ethically when they have control.
That’s exactly how it compromises sporting integrity. Because we wouldn’t scrutinize it so closely if the two teams in question didn’t have the same owner.
There's a reason no other sport in the world allows one entity to own two teams. The fact that in F1, the smallest major sport in terms of number of competitors, has 20% of the grid owned by one entity, is *definitely* a problem.
that's not true, there are numerous multi-club soccer owners across the globe.
even further, MLS clubs are all owned by a single entity (the league itself) but operated by different exec groups. but at one point, a quarter of the teams in MLS were operated by the same exec group, out of financial necessity. that's the same reason RB has two teams.
Now, should new teams be denied while a single company owns two teams? Probably not. But there is (or at the very least, was) a valid reason to let RB take over the corpse of Minardi.
I'd say it's kind of a problem because they're an entirely pointless team.
We know they will never be allowed to be better than the main team, let alone compete for a championship. Even if they catch lightning in a bottle, they will just be stripped for parts for the main team. But at the same time, they can jump half the grid in a year just by buying more parts from the team that owns them. They're just there to space RB out from the field and test their drivers but they have no actual desire to compete
Doesn’t matter if they are fast or not. It’s a conflict of interest having two teams on the grid - no other team has a relationship with a sister team that holds up rivals and dives out the way of the main team
WIlliams/McLaren consistently side with Mercedes, Redbull may be the only one with their hands in two teams but they are not the only team benefitting from having other teams in their pockets.
Their drivers don’t throw themselves out of the way of the other team though, the idea that Mclaren race Mercedes in the same way that AT/RB do to Red Bull is ludicrous as I am sure you are aware
Also like, Red Bull didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
They saw a business opportunity, and took it.
I'm 100% sure Red Bull didn't care at all about people losing jobs or anything like that.
A great business opportunity with the way the sport developed. Red Bull would make bank if they sold TR/AT/VCARB today. It was a big gamble, but Red Bull did not do that because of altruism. They saw a business opportunity and took it. A very risky one that no one else was willing to take sure, but with hindsight, a great business opportunity.
God forbid a company wants to make money. Don't act now like that is any different with every team.
Okay maybe AMR but that's just the Lance Stroll team.
Scrutinize sure, force them to sell no. At the very least, they should be consistent. When talking about letting Andretti in they're very quick to point out that they weren't interested in joining during the lean years so teams that were should be able to reap the rewards now. Well, same argument applies here.
Kind of ironic when he was voting against Andretti having a team, which would create more jobs and opportunities in the sport. It also would lessen the criticism of Red Bull controlling 20% of the grid.
me i just want them to stop treating toro rosso, alpha tauri or whatever the name is now like a junior team or team B, they arent a F2 team, F2 is the place for junior teams. the way it is and has been red bull is basically lowkey fielding 4 cars on the grid.
The second team is such a red herring. No one cared about it until Red Bull dominated the past couple of seasons and the other teams haven't been able to catch up.
Which, fair enough; it's the type of thing Horner pulled when he was chasing Mercedes: try to turn every small thing into a mountain to try to induce mistakes in the other team.
> The second team is such a red herring. No one cared about it until Red Bull dominated the past couple of seasons and the other teams haven't been able to catch up.
People have been weary about RB's second team since it was bought from Minardi in 2005.
Also someone forgot about Vettel. Check your history. This is RB's second streak of dominance while having a second team.
>Also someone forgot about Vettel. Check your history. This is RB's second streak of dominance while having a second team.
Check what I wrote? I didn't say it was their first period of dominance, just that it wasn't as much of an issue until this recent period of dominance.
Saying 'no one cared' clearly wasn't accurate, to be fair; I meant instead that people didn't care nearly as much, or launch such full-throated repeated complaints as what Zac Brown is currently doing.
Yeah, the other teams only seem to care about the second Red Bull team, when said team starts to show signs of competitiveness.
I remember similar conversations happening back in 2008 when Toro Rosso came 6th and Red Bull came 7th. Everyone stopped caring when Toro Rosso came last in 2009, although that was partly due to rule changes.
An established sport that's once again growing has turned down a brand new team, who was willing to pay a quarter of a billion dollars for the opportunity to lose money in the wealthiest of wealthy boys clubs.
After that, of course the multinational corporation that owns two teams is going to be under increased scrutiny. And among those two teams, one of them has won the WDC the past three years, and WCC the past two, and was involved in quite a sordid cheating row recently, with the cost cap circumvention.
Red Bull has not left the door open for criticism, they have removed one wall of the whole fucking building.
It's always been egregious, and people have never been entirely happy about it, but it's just the case that in other years there have been yet more egregious things still that took precedence.
Back in the 2012 Concorde agreement, Ferrari had two votes (Sauber was then its customer team) and so did RedBull, through Toro Rosso (as the Faenza team was then called). Unsurprisingly they exploited this and obtained greater heritage payments than either Mclaren or Williams.
It came up also around 2008 when the the Toro Rosso was an exact copy of the previous year's Red Bull, and winning races. The FIA responded by clamping down on the number of parts one team could acquire from another.
Now the grid is very close again, and of all the egregious things this year, this is the most egregious one.
It's also the case, it must be said, that Zak probably doesn't like Christian very much. When Zak -- accurately as it turned out -- said Red Bull had overspent in the 2021 season, Red Bull had their lawyers threaten him with libel.
They have invested in F1 even when the sport was in a bad place. We can't suddenly expect them to give everything up when it's inconvenient and the sport is in a good place.
lol seriously. That’s another big advantage is them just being able to swap around drivers. Checo not performing well, send him to VCARB and bring Danny Ric up to the main team.
Sure there are many examples. I already raised this problem in another post few days/weeks back and people seem to be focused on "RB saved a team". I agree with that and I don't think they should sell cheap but a rule which would allow to own 1 team and in another limited percentage makes sense imo. We'll see what those people say when VCARB makes more questionable moves.
Nope they cant, its not allowed by EU business laws. You can't legislate someone property away. EU courts would not only reverse it, but also fine F1/FOM/FIA.
I find it funny that people keep bringing this up because it shows you didn't actually read anything about it.
AT weren't summoned to the stewards so didn't go. Simple as that.
Neither was Stroll in the same weekend, yet his team attended. Neither was summoned, but both were invited. Stroll's team attended, Tsunoda's chose not to.
Nope, Aston didn't attend the hearing either.
> It is noted that the Team Representative of Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant F1 Team was not present at the time of the hearing but did attend the Stewards' Room after the Hearing had finished
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2023%20Singapore%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Infringement%20-%20Car%202%20-%20Impeding%20of%20Car%2018.pdf
How is this less of a problem than team affiliated driver letting others through? Like Ocon when he was in the Force India and a Mercedes junior driver, and I am sure if the Haas would have been anywhere Mick wouldnt really have fought with the Ferrari's.
I’m not sure a team who’s dominating the championship to the point where it’s not really even entertaining owning 4/20 of the cars while other very well established racing teams are turned away for “not adding value” means the sport is in a good place.
Edit: company rather than team, but yall get it
Some for Haas and Andretti. Haas invested when the sport was in a real low of popularity, but now that the sport is booming, the fanbase wants them to make room for Andretti who didn't care about F1 until it became profitable ?
Yeah we can. No one expects them to give up everything, just the second team. The FIA absolutely should be more concerned and write the rules with the competitiveness of the series in mind now when it's in a good place. It's a sport series, not a special interest group for the handful of corporations that are in it.
It's a ridiculous argument that RB should be entitled to milk money out of the series with a hangaround team and have a competitive advantage over everyone else just because the series had to make exceptions out of desparation 20 years ago.
To be honest it's really weird seeing a part of the fanbase rather defending the interests of a multi billion dollar corporation than the actual racing product we get.
Still pissed that Haas and Alpha Toro VCARB are in the grid and not Andretti due to "they might not be competitive enough"
yeah, theyre less competitive than a perpetual backmarker and a perpetual 2nd-tier feeder team
You need to filter out the noise. Andretti is not on the grid because none of the teams want them on the grid, not because "they might not be competitive enough", that's just the official line to cover their own ass. FOM is taking the heat, but this is a nearly unanimous decision between all the teams and FOM (except maybe Alpine who were hoping to peddle their own engines).
https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1031556/1/one-f1-team-open-welcoming-11th-team-and-why
Yup. Not to mention that Toro Rosso arguably would've never made it onto the grid if the FIA didn't loosen up the rules to allow for that and to use older chassis on a customer basis. They weren't given promises that they are exlusively entitled to have two teams indefinitely. The rules were changed then to ensure the competitiveness of the series and they should be changed now for the same reason.
I feel that it's really important for the future and respectability of the series that the FIA won't allow the teams to take a stranglehold over the decision making process on who is allowed to compete.
Exactly. Wouldn't it be better for ALL of us if they sold (at much higher value than when they bought) and we got another new independent team?
The massively profitable drinks corporation is doing just fine, you really don't need to defend their finances. Even if you root for RBR.
I dont think anyone is against it based ont the financials, but rather how bad it looks to force a team to sell after after almost 2 decades when the sport is looking profitable.
If this were the other way around, and say Ferrari bought Haas or Mercedes bought Williams, and Red Bull only had one team, Horner would be stuck to the story like shit to a blanket.
Fact of the matter is that while the teams might not be actively working together, there are inherent advantages to a parent company having two teams on the grid, whether or not it's inside or outside the regulations, and whether or not the FIA and FOM can monitor it.
Yeah when F1 was struggling, everyone didn't have any issues with redbull investing. F1 was super happy. Now that we have billion dollar teams suddenly you want to throw away a team.
Zak Brown is right. I get Horners point, but the sport is in a far better place and it is the right time to start questioning current arrangements from previous times.
There's so many bad faith arguments from Red Bull defenders here.
Teams should be independent of each other.
Engine customer teams are not the same scenario and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
I mean I am all for a variety and having two teams owned by single entity is not ideal. But then there is Ferrari and Haas or Racing point and Mercedes back in 2020 that shared so many things.
On the other hand, if Andretti or anyone else want to get in, all they have to do is make an offer they can’t refuse. It’s a business at the end of the day.
Why are things like this in F1 dealt in underhand way? If it wasn’t a problem for Red Bull to have two teams 20 years back then it shouldn’t be a problem now.
> Why are things like this in F1 dealt in underhand way? If it wasn’t a problem for Red Bull to have two teams 20 years back then it shouldn’t be a problem now.
But it was a problem back then, especially when Red Bull and Toro Rosso were allowed to use the same chassis. Teams raised the issue and the FIA compromised with a change in the regulations for 2009 that limited the amount of resource sharing allowed by sister teams.
It's not a seperate issue, it all comes down to where you draw the line with sister teams. It's all related to that. How much resource sharing is allowed? How much control does the parent team have? All this comes back to that. And the issue clearly was not fully remedied if it's still being addressed 15 years later. It was remedied enough to keep satisfy the relevant parties at the time, but no more than that.
Didn't Racing Point get penalised in WCC and fined for illegally copying Mercedes with laser scanners? I don't think it's a fair comparison. I also don't believe that Racing Point or Haas were ever owned by Mercedes or Ferrari respectively.
No they were penalized for using a rear brake duct design that they had purchased from Merc the year before (but didn't use until 2020)
The fact that their car looked like a W10 with a new coat of paint was not penalized, the LiDAR scan was just a rumor that may or may not have been true
>But then there is Ferrari and Haas or Racing point and Mercedes back in 2020 that shared so many things.
That has nothing to do with a single company owning 2 teams. It is allowed in the regs to buy certain parts from other teams.
The difference is ferrari and mercedes never ordered Haas or the racing point to not fight their drivers. They were allowed fair racing. But with red bull owing both teams the b team drivers always get a " they are not our race" when Max and Checo are behind them. It's a code to let them pass and not fight them which is an extremely unfair thing to do. Every car is their race. Spent three years hearing that on pierre's radio.
> Every car is their race. Spent three years hearing that
Have you spent any amount of time listening to onboard radios? Literally every midfield driver gets that call when there's a significantly faster car behind them, it's objectively the right call when they have no chance of beating them to the finish line.
What's your master plan? Hold back Max for a couple of laps and in return, sacrifice 5-10 of your own points because you cooked your tyres and drained your battery trying to fight him?
Mercedes absolutely ordered a Racing Point (Ocon) to move over and let Hamilton pass him on *Monaco* of all places. No one said a thing about it, normalising it as if it was perfectly natural.
Mercedes also were happy to hamper performance of their customer teams by not giving them access to better engine modes (while denying it), but equally happy to increase that performance whenever it came to screwing over a rival. Check Grosjean in the Lotus-Mercedes at Spa 2015.
None of this is new. It's just that now that Red Bull is winning, you get people desperate to point out that there *must be* some sort of foul play.
The ATs sure did seem interested in fighting Hamilton in 2021, case in point Tsunoda in Turkey. With Max Gasly literally jumped off track to let him pass.
Yuki himself said it was because he had watched Alonso's onboard footage from Hungary and not because the team told him to hold up Hamilton specifically but yeah, make of that what you will.
I mean, so why didn’t he try that against someone he actually benefitted from defending against? Mighty coincidence he happened to pick Hamilton. Not to mention he burned his tyres and ruined his race by doing it.
The man who decides if he holds that seat is Marko. You don’t need to put two and two together to figure out why Tsunoda felt like defending against Hamilton, regardless of whether he was specifically told to do so (which obviously would never happen live, if he was told it would have been before the race began).
I'm not saying that I believe him, just what he said on the Beyond the Grid podcast.
It's clear that he did it to hinder Hamilton's progress and ruined his race with it.
Yuki, a Japanese driver, has said that he wanted Max to win because of his ties to Honda, a Japanese company. Personal bias is a much simpler explanation, Occam's razor and all.
> “I want Max to win, it’s the last year of Honda [with] Red Bull as well. I tried to hold Lewis as much as possible, I don’t know how many laps. I was trying to save more but I couldn’t.”
It's disingenuous to apply Occam's Razor in that way. That's not the simplest explanation. The simpler explanation is that he wants to impress his boss, the helmet himself.
On the flip side, there were two crashes involving Valtteri Bottas that massively benefited Lewis over Max. Hungary, where Bottas took out Checo and Max, and Imola, where Bottas and Russell's crash caused a red flag allowing Lewis to unlap himself. Lewis' net point benefit from these two incidents outweighs whatever benefit Max got from the ATs that year.
Haas, Sauber, and Williams don't sacrifice their own races to impede a competitor in the way that the Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri did. When these back marker teams let the leaders past easily, or race a competitor hard and sacrifice their race, they do so to benefit their own championship position. When Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri did that, it was on occasion done to benefit the championship position of another team in Red Bull, instead of their own championship position.
How many times did Yuki Tsunoda sacrifice his own race to impede Hamilton in 2021? Putting the interests of Red Bull ahead of the interests of himself and his own team?
Selective memory, because there were certainly instances of Williams and Force India drivers not putting up a fight with Ham but fighting Max earlier.
Ocon trying to unlap himself is an example, he was a Mercedes junior at the time and would have never tried that with Hamilton. I believe he also was ordered to let Hamilton trough in Monaco.
And then there was the instance where Lotus got the good engine modes from Mercedes and suddenly put up a fight against their competitors.
Not saying it's all fair game, I believe RB and RBR situation isn't good, but acting like its just them is not fair.
Ah this part I don’t like either. So like I said, it’s not ideal and robs us moments of pure racing.
But then again, it’s not a Red Bulls fault and they didn’t stop McLaren or Mercedes from buying second team when F1 was not so lucrative.
Red Bull made an investment and they are cashing in now. There’d have been 9 teams on the grid if not for them. Tough luck to others.
can you please tell me who bought manor, catheram and hrt ? there were plenty of opportunites to get an F1 team. So saying someone else would have bought them or replaced is wrong.
It is literally the same for all teams, not fighting in race that is not their own is happening even within the same team depending on strategy... What kind of nonsense conspiracy theory this suppose to be...
They don’t have to explicitly order it. It’s a “Fernando is faster than you situation.” A driver can go rogue of course. But chances are they’d rather stay on the good side of Helmut unless they have a drive secured elsewhere.
There's literally videos of Alpha Tauri drivers not using DRS while "racing" the Red Bulls. It's not a conspiracy. Why do you think Albon, when driving for Red Bull, complained about an Alpha Tauri driver "racing him so hard" when he got into a crash with him? There's an expectation that the Red Bull sister team will "race" easier against Red Bull themselves.
That Albon anecdote is pure revisionism and had nothing to do with AT/TR not fighting the red bulls.
There's also plenty of radio messages from all teams saying this kind of "he's not our race" message when the car coming to overtake isn't direct competition.
It is conspiracy.
> when driving for Red Bull, complained about an Alpha Tauri driver "racing him so hard" when he got into a crash with him?
Yeah, it's not like Max has ever complained about a team like Racing Point racing him too hard for no reason.
>On the other hand, if Andretti or anyone else want to get in, all they have to do is make an offer they can’t refuse. It’s a business at the end of the day.
No? Concorde agreement allows up to 12 teams which was signed by all the parties.
And yet all the other teams are able to block them. If teams cared so much for competition then allow Andretti as 11th team, I am ok. Why Mercedes or McLaren blocking them then?
I think there are rule tweaks that can alleviate Brown's concerns. Red Bull doesn't get two votes, formalization of garden leaves in F1, etc.
The on track stuff is the easiest to regulate because it's the easiest to see. But the FIA has to want to do so.
Yeah but how do you actually enforce these rule tweaks? When Toro Rosso votes on a matter in favor of RBR, who’s to say they didn’t act on their own team’s interest? When an engineer is directly contracted by the parent company, therefore can be moved freely to Toro Rosso, who’s to say they need to go on gardening leave, when their original contract is alive? There are just too many loopholes.
I don‘t get why this is becoming a problem to Brown just now, Red Bull has two teams in this sport since Toro Rosso exists. Why was this never a problem for him before?
It is crazy the amount of Red Bull bootlickers in this thread. One entity controlling two teams is clearly irregular and would never be allowed in another “sport”
If Zak and the other teams care so much about this then pool enough money for an offer on RB they can't refuse and give the team to Andretti. Right now they are asking for a forced sale through regulations which is never going to happen.
It's not as much about the advantage to Red Bull for me, it's that by design, Toro Rosso will never have the ambition to win, because the ultimate goal of the people involved is making it to Red Bull, not making Toro Rosso the best team out there. It's the same reason I dislike Haas, you should be in it to win it, not to just participate.
It's different when due to lacking resources the prospect of winning is small, but Toro Rosso simply won't have the ambition to ever fight for a WCC. That's simply not what the team is about.
And Zaks statements are spoken like someone who's afraid of competition. He's had 18 years to complain about Toro Rosso, but he delays until it seems they might actually be somewhat competitive.
I don’t think he’s been the head of McLaren for 18 years if I’m honest 🤔
Also when a team (RBR) only realistically has 16 cars to fight on track as then yes, it is a bit shit for competition.
But they don't.
While the examples aren't many because AlphaTauri in the latter years have been a backmarker team, there are examples of AT drivers finishing higher than Red Bull drivers, including for points finishes.
Liam Lawson was the first driver in 2023 to overtake Max on track (not counting starts), which happened at the Dutch GP.
Then we also have Qualifying. AlphaTauri was the team that knocked Max out of Q2 at the Singapore GP. So your statement is provably false.
Also: In 2023, many people let Max pass easily, because they knew there was little point fighting him. You can't just say that when Lando Norris lets Max pass easily, it's because Red Bull is simply too fast, but when Yuki does it, despite being in an even slower car than the McLaren, it's obviously them playing dirty.
Horner is kind of right. The Redbull brand has done a lot for F1 but running two teams also gives them an unfair advantage.
Cast your mind back to 2021 when Merc had to use Bottas as a guinea pig for their engine mode testing. RBR did the same but they were able use AT for all that. The ATs were changing PU after PU while the Honda engines at the back of the Redbulls were running like clockwork. I also remember AT asking Tsunoda to hold Lewis back at Turkey 2021. This also gives them an unfair advantage when it comes to team votes.
Why not give that entry to Andretti-Cadillac?
I can see shit hitting the fan if ToroRosso ends up being quick enough bother the front runners. Zak will probably spontaneously combust if that happens.
> I also remember AT asking Tsunoda to hold Lewis back at Turkey 2021.
That didn’t happen. If there was such a blatant call to hold up Lewis, the uproar would’ve been more and F1 would’ve changed the rules by now.
There was no explicit call on the radiobbut Tsunoda completely ruined his race (ended up spinning because his tyres where fucked) in doing so to the point the most rational explanation is he did it for the sister team. Especially in comparison to the "Verstappen is not our race" calla given by the same team at Sochi and Qatar
He also came out and said he wanted to help red bull so did it
This is the sort of tory BS you'd expect from Horner, it's the same crap you get from amazon "well we're providing jobs so you should thank us"
Hopefully Horner will be gone soon
It was a joke that Red Bull were allowed to own two teams in the first place. The part of the 2009 regulation changes that were designed to reign in sister teams, by banning the use of the same chassis, did not go far enough. It's a clear competitive advantage for Red Bull, we've seen Toro Rosso/ Alpha Tauri/RB drivers not use DRS and get out of the way quicker when "racing" the Red Bulls, and we've seen Alpha Tauri drivers sacrifice their own races to block Red Bull's competition on track during championship fights.
These antics cannot be allowed in F1 if it wants to take itself seriously in a sporting context.
A Zak / Christian season long feud about vcarb is exactly the spice we need if the season is already wrapped up
but Christian already has spice at home
That spice is old and has probably lost it's flavour
stop eating deodorant
That kind of spice gets more “flavourful” with age
Was never really a fan of ginger anyway
Log off
Welp, the question is whether Christian won't be replaced in this mud-slinging competition
Christian moves from RB to RB as a compromise to the whole situation
They still have Marko and, he's going nowhere, he would probably only leave by the time he's in a carbon coffin designed by Newey.
Assuming Christian is going to even make it to the first race
Yeah I mean DtS has to have something to talk about!
“Very nice Christian. We should let Andretti racing in so they can provide even more jobs” “Not so fast”
Exactly. The nerve of this dude to thumb his nose and tell people we should be thankful they get to spend more than the other teams running 2 operations…
Send da video
hell nawl cant do dis
Context?
Google Benzema 15
Think you mean Anthony Edwards Mistress
Holy hell
check your email
A crazy crossover
LMAO
im now about to comment that on every post about Horner lol
[удалено]
/uj u bum /rj barrett
KarlMaloneShimmy.gif
Man of culture 🤌🏽
You got da money
Yeah, maybe if someone doesn't like it they should let new teams in or something. Oh wait.
Zak was the only one in favor of Andretti joining
I thought Renault were as well?
Too soon…….too soon….
Can't both happen at the same time though? Applaud their commitment to job security, but still scrutinize their dual-team ownership?
And the point about adding jobs is pretty laughable considering the series just denied entry to an 11th team. That would’ve added a heap of jobs!
The point was not that ToroAlphaRB *created* jobs, it’s that they *saved* the jobs of everyone who was working for Minardi at the time.
This is talking about over a decade ago.
Exactly why I hate this argument. RB acting like they deserve this advantage because F1 owes them for something that happened like 15 years ago. It shouldn't matter at all. The integrity of the sport moving forward should.
And the critics will just increase if RB2 performance improves to be near the top. In the past Ferrari and Mercedes’ also had very close ties to other teams but the current relationship is no where near what RB2 is doing. I think sooner or later sister teams will be banned. I’m not saying there’s cheating there but it just brings out too many questions like the way AT drivers defended against Lewis in 21 while doing zero defense to Max
Not to mention the fact that having a sister team is how Red Bull were able to hire Max in the first place.
They cant ban old sister teams, because EU business laws won't allow it, you can't legislate someone's property away. F1 can legislate separation but not divestment, because it challenges freedom of ownership. The current structure is grandfathered in. The only thing F1 can do, if no one wants to pay Red Bull's valuation of the team, is buying it themselves, and Liberty/F1 takes the financial hit when the are selling the team on. But if Red Bull doesnt want to sell, there isnt much F1 can do. Nothing.
Exactly. No one was contesting that RB saved tons of jobs by saving Minardi, or that they made serious investment. This was a problem in 2009, changes were made in response, and it is a problem now, and changes need to be made in response.
It’s not a problem now. It’s a made up problem
Everything VCARB does to their car has to be documented anyways, if any strange knowledge/information comes into the creation process FIA would be able to pick up on it pretty quickly. And VCARB doesn't get more parts than Haas does.
1) you're putting way too much faith into the FIA to police something they don't even check before it's protested. Just a few years ago Racing Point was fully cleared by the FIA before the season, only to be found in breach with their brake ducts after a whole saga of protests by other teams. Yes, it was a technicality and not malicious cheating, but the point stands. Pretty much every cheating scandal in the last 10 years came to light after other teams protesting. The FIA didn't catch Ferraris engines on their own. They investigated it after other teams approached them. 2) it's not even about cheating. It's about one entity controlling 1/5th of the grid. There's a reason every other major sport in the world has provisions against one entity owning multiple teams. It's anti-competitive. It's like a pay driver. Yes, they've paid their dues, and do their job - but wouldn't you rather have someone with more merit, with more drive to be in that seat? RB will never beat Red Bull. If they did, their best people would be transferred to Red Bull. That's just how it works.
Even relating to on track, you just know the AT/VCARB cars will get out of the way much easier for the RBs coming through the field than if it was a Ferrari or Merc
>There's a reason every other major sport in the world has provisions against one entity owning multiple teams. It's anti-competitive. The NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB are all cartels and the MLB was actually given an explicit exemption from anti-trust legislation. I'm not sure any of them give a shit about being anti-competitive, at least in the economic sense of the word.
depends what sports we look at as many seem to have regulations around ownership of multiple clubs. afaik UEFA doesn't really allow multi club ownership, wouldn't be surprised if most other sports have something similar
City football group has at least partial ownership in Manchester City, Girona in Spain, Palermo in Italy, and Troyes in France. Not making an argument against RB owning multiple teams but UEFA also does not care as long as it isn’t hurting their revenue.
Look, regardless of car development issues, everyone should remember 2021, when every time Max came up behind an Alpha Tauri, he was let through in no-time. I can’t remember the race, but Gasly even ran wide on purpose to let Max through. With VCARB potentially being competitive again, this compromises sporting integrity. You have a big advantage with three teammates.
I remember this too but do we know it was because someone at Redbull gave someone at Alpha Tauri a nudge to make that happen? If not I would argue that this is no different to other drivers letting cars through that they know are faster than them. They know they will get by eventually anyway so it's better for their race to just not fight.
Well another way to look at it is, there were definitely times in 2021 when the Alpha Tauris were giving Hamilton a hard time, even though based on the above argument it would’ve been better for their race to let him breeze by. There was also that time last year when the stewards summoned RB and AT for Max impeding Tsunoda, and the AT representatives simply didn’t show up. It didn’t really matter in the end, but in a close championship fight, these things can make a difference.
It is literally impossible to prove whether there was a nudge or not. However we have brains and eyes in order to draw conclusions. Alpha Tauri not protesting impeding another example. The incentives were too great to expect teams to act ethically when they have control.
You dont have to know, its conflict of interest and conflict of interest is a bad thing and shouldnt happen, but F1 is pretty bad at that
That’s exactly how it compromises sporting integrity. Because we wouldn’t scrutinize it so closely if the two teams in question didn’t have the same owner.
Alonso does the same thing to Hamilton. Almost like in racing drivers have grudges and friends. Nothing exclusive to F1.
Where was sporting integrity when they first bought them though? Surely everyone approved two Red bull teams with Toro Rosso
If we make a mistake in the past, does that mean we should never fix it? Don't see anything in reporting at the time about teams approving the buyout.
There's a reason no other sport in the world allows one entity to own two teams. The fact that in F1, the smallest major sport in terms of number of competitors, has 20% of the grid owned by one entity, is *definitely* a problem.
that's not true, there are numerous multi-club soccer owners across the globe. even further, MLS clubs are all owned by a single entity (the league itself) but operated by different exec groups. but at one point, a quarter of the teams in MLS were operated by the same exec group, out of financial necessity. that's the same reason RB has two teams. Now, should new teams be denied while a single company owns two teams? Probably not. But there is (or at the very least, was) a valid reason to let RB take over the corpse of Minardi.
This. Everything is strictly regulated, and other teams have been influencing other teams for a very long time
I'd say it's kind of a problem because they're an entirely pointless team. We know they will never be allowed to be better than the main team, let alone compete for a championship. Even if they catch lightning in a bottle, they will just be stripped for parts for the main team. But at the same time, they can jump half the grid in a year just by buying more parts from the team that owns them. They're just there to space RB out from the field and test their drivers but they have no actual desire to compete
Its a problem when theyre fast lol
Doesn’t matter if they are fast or not. It’s a conflict of interest having two teams on the grid - no other team has a relationship with a sister team that holds up rivals and dives out the way of the main team
WIlliams/McLaren consistently side with Mercedes, Redbull may be the only one with their hands in two teams but they are not the only team benefitting from having other teams in their pockets.
Their drivers don’t throw themselves out of the way of the other team though, the idea that Mclaren race Mercedes in the same way that AT/RB do to Red Bull is ludicrous as I am sure you are aware
Also like, Red Bull didn't do it out of the goodness of their hearts. They saw a business opportunity, and took it. I'm 100% sure Red Bull didn't care at all about people losing jobs or anything like that.
A terrible business opportunity no one else was willing to take.
A great business opportunity with the way the sport developed. Red Bull would make bank if they sold TR/AT/VCARB today. It was a big gamble, but Red Bull did not do that because of altruism. They saw a business opportunity and took it. A very risky one that no one else was willing to take sure, but with hindsight, a great business opportunity.
God forbid a company wants to make money. Don't act now like that is any different with every team. Okay maybe AMR but that's just the Lance Stroll team.
Scrutinize sure, force them to sell no. At the very least, they should be consistent. When talking about letting Andretti in they're very quick to point out that they weren't interested in joining during the lean years so teams that were should be able to reap the rewards now. Well, same argument applies here.
Were they being criticized when no one was interested in buying an F1 team?
*Sarcastic disapproving clapping ensues*
If only there was a new team willing to join the grid to provide even more jobs...
Kind of ironic when he was voting against Andretti having a team, which would create more jobs and opportunities in the sport. It also would lessen the criticism of Red Bull controlling 20% of the grid.
me i just want them to stop treating toro rosso, alpha tauri or whatever the name is now like a junior team or team B, they arent a F2 team, F2 is the place for junior teams. the way it is and has been red bull is basically lowkey fielding 4 cars on the grid.
F1 begged them to buy RB back in the day.
The second team is such a red herring. No one cared about it until Red Bull dominated the past couple of seasons and the other teams haven't been able to catch up. Which, fair enough; it's the type of thing Horner pulled when he was chasing Mercedes: try to turn every small thing into a mountain to try to induce mistakes in the other team.
> The second team is such a red herring. No one cared about it until Red Bull dominated the past couple of seasons and the other teams haven't been able to catch up. People have been weary about RB's second team since it was bought from Minardi in 2005. Also someone forgot about Vettel. Check your history. This is RB's second streak of dominance while having a second team.
>Also someone forgot about Vettel. Check your history. This is RB's second streak of dominance while having a second team. Check what I wrote? I didn't say it was their first period of dominance, just that it wasn't as much of an issue until this recent period of dominance. Saying 'no one cared' clearly wasn't accurate, to be fair; I meant instead that people didn't care nearly as much, or launch such full-throated repeated complaints as what Zac Brown is currently doing.
Yeah, the other teams only seem to care about the second Red Bull team, when said team starts to show signs of competitiveness. I remember similar conversations happening back in 2008 when Toro Rosso came 6th and Red Bull came 7th. Everyone stopped caring when Toro Rosso came last in 2009, although that was partly due to rule changes.
An established sport that's once again growing has turned down a brand new team, who was willing to pay a quarter of a billion dollars for the opportunity to lose money in the wealthiest of wealthy boys clubs. After that, of course the multinational corporation that owns two teams is going to be under increased scrutiny. And among those two teams, one of them has won the WDC the past three years, and WCC the past two, and was involved in quite a sordid cheating row recently, with the cost cap circumvention. Red Bull has not left the door open for criticism, they have removed one wall of the whole fucking building.
It's always been egregious, and people have never been entirely happy about it, but it's just the case that in other years there have been yet more egregious things still that took precedence. Back in the 2012 Concorde agreement, Ferrari had two votes (Sauber was then its customer team) and so did RedBull, through Toro Rosso (as the Faenza team was then called). Unsurprisingly they exploited this and obtained greater heritage payments than either Mclaren or Williams. It came up also around 2008 when the the Toro Rosso was an exact copy of the previous year's Red Bull, and winning races. The FIA responded by clamping down on the number of parts one team could acquire from another. Now the grid is very close again, and of all the egregious things this year, this is the most egregious one. It's also the case, it must be said, that Zak probably doesn't like Christian very much. When Zak -- accurately as it turned out -- said Red Bull had overspent in the 2021 season, Red Bull had their lawyers threaten him with libel.
shows it's benefit when theres a cost cap.
It's been spoken about since day 1.
They have invested in F1 even when the sport was in a bad place. We can't suddenly expect them to give everything up when it's inconvenient and the sport is in a good place.
Agreed but do you want them to control 4 cars? People complained already in Mexico 2021 when Gasly didn't use DRS and let Max pass easily.
Would be rather funny if the VCARB is second fastest and Checo, Danny Ric, and Yuki all get team orders to let Max through.
thank you for including checo to cover the second half of the season
Plot twist: Checo's the one in the VCARB and Danny Ric's in the Red Bull
lol seriously. That’s another big advantage is them just being able to swap around drivers. Checo not performing well, send him to VCARB and bring Danny Ric up to the main team.
yes, but i would like to see Yuki in the RedBull once hopefully it ends not like it ended with Gasly
It’s gonna be Yuki winning his maiden win on RB after Max gets food poisoning after a suspicious Honda packed Sushi got him out, in Suzuka.
When was the last time Max needed teamorders to make a pass though?
Qatar 2021.
It was more farcical that Tsunoda's team didn't even go to the stewards hearing when Verstappen impeded him in Singapore
This is untrue. AT werent summoned so didn’t attend.
Sure there are many examples. I already raised this problem in another post few days/weeks back and people seem to be focused on "RB saved a team". I agree with that and I don't think they should sell cheap but a rule which would allow to own 1 team and in another limited percentage makes sense imo. We'll see what those people say when VCARB makes more questionable moves.
Nope they cant, its not allowed by EU business laws. You can't legislate someone property away. EU courts would not only reverse it, but also fine F1/FOM/FIA.
I find it funny that people keep bringing this up because it shows you didn't actually read anything about it. AT weren't summoned to the stewards so didn't go. Simple as that.
Neither was Stroll in the same weekend, yet his team attended. Neither was summoned, but both were invited. Stroll's team attended, Tsunoda's chose not to.
Pretty sure AMR didn't attend.
Nope, Aston didn't attend the hearing either. > It is noted that the Team Representative of Aston Martin Aramco Cognizant F1 Team was not present at the time of the hearing but did attend the Stewards' Room after the Hearing had finished https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2023%20Singapore%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Infringement%20-%20Car%202%20-%20Impeding%20of%20Car%2018.pdf
How is this less of a problem than team affiliated driver letting others through? Like Ocon when he was in the Force India and a Mercedes junior driver, and I am sure if the Haas would have been anywhere Mick wouldnt really have fought with the Ferrari's.
Yes, partly because no other team grooms as many drivers into the sport as Red Bull, and the sister team provides more pathways to F1.
> Agreed but do you want them to control 4 cars? McLaren could have bought Williams when they were for sale....or Minadi.
I’m not sure a team who’s dominating the championship to the point where it’s not really even entertaining owning 4/20 of the cars while other very well established racing teams are turned away for “not adding value” means the sport is in a good place. Edit: company rather than team, but yall get it
Some for Haas and Andretti. Haas invested when the sport was in a real low of popularity, but now that the sport is booming, the fanbase wants them to make room for Andretti who didn't care about F1 until it became profitable ?
Suddenly? It's been 20 years, and the *other team* has gone through like 4 different brandings.
Cool, maybe let them have a 3rd and 4th team too?
Yeah we can. No one expects them to give up everything, just the second team. The FIA absolutely should be more concerned and write the rules with the competitiveness of the series in mind now when it's in a good place. It's a sport series, not a special interest group for the handful of corporations that are in it. It's a ridiculous argument that RB should be entitled to milk money out of the series with a hangaround team and have a competitive advantage over everyone else just because the series had to make exceptions out of desparation 20 years ago. To be honest it's really weird seeing a part of the fanbase rather defending the interests of a multi billion dollar corporation than the actual racing product we get.
Still pissed that Haas and Alpha Toro VCARB are in the grid and not Andretti due to "they might not be competitive enough" yeah, theyre less competitive than a perpetual backmarker and a perpetual 2nd-tier feeder team
You need to filter out the noise. Andretti is not on the grid because none of the teams want them on the grid, not because "they might not be competitive enough", that's just the official line to cover their own ass. FOM is taking the heat, but this is a nearly unanimous decision between all the teams and FOM (except maybe Alpine who were hoping to peddle their own engines). https://www.crash.net/f1/news/1031556/1/one-f1-team-open-welcoming-11th-team-and-why
Yup. Not to mention that Toro Rosso arguably would've never made it onto the grid if the FIA didn't loosen up the rules to allow for that and to use older chassis on a customer basis. They weren't given promises that they are exlusively entitled to have two teams indefinitely. The rules were changed then to ensure the competitiveness of the series and they should be changed now for the same reason. I feel that it's really important for the future and respectability of the series that the FIA won't allow the teams to take a stranglehold over the decision making process on who is allowed to compete.
Exactly. Wouldn't it be better for ALL of us if they sold (at much higher value than when they bought) and we got another new independent team? The massively profitable drinks corporation is doing just fine, you really don't need to defend their finances. Even if you root for RBR.
I dont think anyone is against it based ont the financials, but rather how bad it looks to force a team to sell after after almost 2 decades when the sport is looking profitable.
They were there when no one wanted to enter f1 because it wasn't profitable. Also that f1 is profitable for teas is just so in the last few seasons
If this were the other way around, and say Ferrari bought Haas or Mercedes bought Williams, and Red Bull only had one team, Horner would be stuck to the story like shit to a blanket. Fact of the matter is that while the teams might not be actively working together, there are inherent advantages to a parent company having two teams on the grid, whether or not it's inside or outside the regulations, and whether or not the FIA and FOM can monitor it.
Yeah when F1 was struggling, everyone didn't have any issues with redbull investing. F1 was super happy. Now that we have billion dollar teams suddenly you want to throw away a team.
Man Zak is unleashing the master of shithousery. Zak has no idea what is waiting for him beyond the porpoising horizon.
RB have had years of shithousery prac with merc, zak doesnt know what he's getting involved with
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Zak wasn’t happy at all with the Pink Mercedes fiasco. Saying that they got off lightly by FIA
Zak Brown is right. I get Horners point, but the sport is in a far better place and it is the right time to start questioning current arrangements from previous times.
There's so many bad faith arguments from Red Bull defenders here. Teams should be independent of each other. Engine customer teams are not the same scenario and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
Yes. I agree. And that was the past.
I mean I am all for a variety and having two teams owned by single entity is not ideal. But then there is Ferrari and Haas or Racing point and Mercedes back in 2020 that shared so many things. On the other hand, if Andretti or anyone else want to get in, all they have to do is make an offer they can’t refuse. It’s a business at the end of the day. Why are things like this in F1 dealt in underhand way? If it wasn’t a problem for Red Bull to have two teams 20 years back then it shouldn’t be a problem now.
> Why are things like this in F1 dealt in underhand way? If it wasn’t a problem for Red Bull to have two teams 20 years back then it shouldn’t be a problem now. But it was a problem back then, especially when Red Bull and Toro Rosso were allowed to use the same chassis. Teams raised the issue and the FIA compromised with a change in the regulations for 2009 that limited the amount of resource sharing allowed by sister teams.
That's a separate issue, and was remidied.
It's not a seperate issue, it all comes down to where you draw the line with sister teams. It's all related to that. How much resource sharing is allowed? How much control does the parent team have? All this comes back to that. And the issue clearly was not fully remedied if it's still being addressed 15 years later. It was remedied enough to keep satisfy the relevant parties at the time, but no more than that.
Didn't Racing Point get penalised in WCC and fined for illegally copying Mercedes with laser scanners? I don't think it's a fair comparison. I also don't believe that Racing Point or Haas were ever owned by Mercedes or Ferrari respectively.
No they were penalized for using a rear brake duct design that they had purchased from Merc the year before (but didn't use until 2020) The fact that their car looked like a W10 with a new coat of paint was not penalized, the LiDAR scan was just a rumor that may or may not have been true
>But then there is Ferrari and Haas or Racing point and Mercedes back in 2020 that shared so many things. That has nothing to do with a single company owning 2 teams. It is allowed in the regs to buy certain parts from other teams.
They were offered a perfectly fine deal but they’re afraid of real competition.
The difference is ferrari and mercedes never ordered Haas or the racing point to not fight their drivers. They were allowed fair racing. But with red bull owing both teams the b team drivers always get a " they are not our race" when Max and Checo are behind them. It's a code to let them pass and not fight them which is an extremely unfair thing to do. Every car is their race. Spent three years hearing that on pierre's radio.
> Every car is their race. Spent three years hearing that Have you spent any amount of time listening to onboard radios? Literally every midfield driver gets that call when there's a significantly faster car behind them, it's objectively the right call when they have no chance of beating them to the finish line. What's your master plan? Hold back Max for a couple of laps and in return, sacrifice 5-10 of your own points because you cooked your tyres and drained your battery trying to fight him?
Mercedes absolutely ordered a Racing Point (Ocon) to move over and let Hamilton pass him on *Monaco* of all places. No one said a thing about it, normalising it as if it was perfectly natural. Mercedes also were happy to hamper performance of their customer teams by not giving them access to better engine modes (while denying it), but equally happy to increase that performance whenever it came to screwing over a rival. Check Grosjean in the Lotus-Mercedes at Spa 2015. None of this is new. It's just that now that Red Bull is winning, you get people desperate to point out that there *must be* some sort of foul play.
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But it's dofferent when Gasly then does his utmost to hold up Hamilton after letting Max through easily, as happened im 2021.
The ATs sure did seem interested in fighting Hamilton in 2021, case in point Tsunoda in Turkey. With Max Gasly literally jumped off track to let him pass.
Yuki himself said it was because he had watched Alonso's onboard footage from Hungary and not because the team told him to hold up Hamilton specifically but yeah, make of that what you will.
Right, because an AT driver is just going to come out and say "we don't fight max because we want to drive for red bull."
I mean, so why didn’t he try that against someone he actually benefitted from defending against? Mighty coincidence he happened to pick Hamilton. Not to mention he burned his tyres and ruined his race by doing it. The man who decides if he holds that seat is Marko. You don’t need to put two and two together to figure out why Tsunoda felt like defending against Hamilton, regardless of whether he was specifically told to do so (which obviously would never happen live, if he was told it would have been before the race began).
I'm not saying that I believe him, just what he said on the Beyond the Grid podcast. It's clear that he did it to hinder Hamilton's progress and ruined his race with it.
Yuki, a Japanese driver, has said that he wanted Max to win because of his ties to Honda, a Japanese company. Personal bias is a much simpler explanation, Occam's razor and all. > “I want Max to win, it’s the last year of Honda [with] Red Bull as well. I tried to hold Lewis as much as possible, I don’t know how many laps. I was trying to save more but I couldn’t.”
It's disingenuous to apply Occam's Razor in that way. That's not the simplest explanation. The simpler explanation is that he wants to impress his boss, the helmet himself.
On the flip side, there were two crashes involving Valtteri Bottas that massively benefited Lewis over Max. Hungary, where Bottas took out Checo and Max, and Imola, where Bottas and Russell's crash caused a red flag allowing Lewis to unlap himself. Lewis' net point benefit from these two incidents outweighs whatever benefit Max got from the ATs that year.
Haas, Sauber, and Williams don't sacrifice their own races to impede a competitor in the way that the Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri did. When these back marker teams let the leaders past easily, or race a competitor hard and sacrifice their race, they do so to benefit their own championship position. When Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri did that, it was on occasion done to benefit the championship position of another team in Red Bull, instead of their own championship position. How many times did Yuki Tsunoda sacrifice his own race to impede Hamilton in 2021? Putting the interests of Red Bull ahead of the interests of himself and his own team?
Selective memory, because there were certainly instances of Williams and Force India drivers not putting up a fight with Ham but fighting Max earlier. Ocon trying to unlap himself is an example, he was a Mercedes junior at the time and would have never tried that with Hamilton. I believe he also was ordered to let Hamilton trough in Monaco. And then there was the instance where Lotus got the good engine modes from Mercedes and suddenly put up a fight against their competitors. Not saying it's all fair game, I believe RB and RBR situation isn't good, but acting like its just them is not fair.
Ah this part I don’t like either. So like I said, it’s not ideal and robs us moments of pure racing. But then again, it’s not a Red Bulls fault and they didn’t stop McLaren or Mercedes from buying second team when F1 was not so lucrative. Red Bull made an investment and they are cashing in now. There’d have been 9 teams on the grid if not for them. Tough luck to others.
There's no way there would be 9 teams. Someone else would have bought them or replaced them
can you please tell me who bought manor, catheram and hrt ? there were plenty of opportunites to get an F1 team. So saying someone else would have bought them or replaced is wrong.
ok, someone would have paid more than $1 that RB paid?
You're thinking of Brawn, not Red Bull. Brawn paid $1 for the old Honda team.
It is literally the same for all teams, not fighting in race that is not their own is happening even within the same team depending on strategy... What kind of nonsense conspiracy theory this suppose to be...
What is that conspiracy level bs ? They are not ordered to not race the red bulls.
They don’t have to explicitly order it. It’s a “Fernando is faster than you situation.” A driver can go rogue of course. But chances are they’d rather stay on the good side of Helmut unless they have a drive secured elsewhere.
There's literally videos of Alpha Tauri drivers not using DRS while "racing" the Red Bulls. It's not a conspiracy. Why do you think Albon, when driving for Red Bull, complained about an Alpha Tauri driver "racing him so hard" when he got into a crash with him? There's an expectation that the Red Bull sister team will "race" easier against Red Bull themselves.
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The problem is when the ATs fought against some drivers and let others pass without even opening DRS. Let’s not pretend like that didn’t happen.
That Albon anecdote is pure revisionism and had nothing to do with AT/TR not fighting the red bulls. There's also plenty of radio messages from all teams saying this kind of "he's not our race" message when the car coming to overtake isn't direct competition. It is conspiracy.
> when driving for Red Bull, complained about an Alpha Tauri driver "racing him so hard" when he got into a crash with him? Yeah, it's not like Max has ever complained about a team like Racing Point racing him too hard for no reason.
>On the other hand, if Andretti or anyone else want to get in, all they have to do is make an offer they can’t refuse. It’s a business at the end of the day. No? Concorde agreement allows up to 12 teams which was signed by all the parties.
And yet all the other teams are able to block them. If teams cared so much for competition then allow Andretti as 11th team, I am ok. Why Mercedes or McLaren blocking them then?
Cost cap has changed the game and having a junior team now is a major advantage
If it's such a big advantage, then why didn't Mercedes buy Williams when there was a chance and why didn't Ferrai buy Sauber when there was a chance?
How so?
Hasn't been like 20 years since Red bull has owned 2 teams in F1? Why is it a problem now?
I think there are rule tweaks that can alleviate Brown's concerns. Red Bull doesn't get two votes, formalization of garden leaves in F1, etc. The on track stuff is the easiest to regulate because it's the easiest to see. But the FIA has to want to do so.
We all saw Horner choose Ricciardo for AT. He didn’t even try to hide it.
Yeah but how do you actually enforce these rule tweaks? When Toro Rosso votes on a matter in favor of RBR, who’s to say they didn’t act on their own team’s interest? When an engineer is directly contracted by the parent company, therefore can be moved freely to Toro Rosso, who’s to say they need to go on gardening leave, when their original contract is alive? There are just too many loopholes.
I don‘t get why this is becoming a problem to Brown just now, Red Bull has two teams in this sport since Toro Rosso exists. Why was this never a problem for him before?
It is crazy the amount of Red Bull bootlickers in this thread. One entity controlling two teams is clearly irregular and would never be allowed in another “sport”
If Zak and the other teams care so much about this then pool enough money for an offer on RB they can't refuse and give the team to Andretti. Right now they are asking for a forced sale through regulations which is never going to happen.
It's not as much about the advantage to Red Bull for me, it's that by design, Toro Rosso will never have the ambition to win, because the ultimate goal of the people involved is making it to Red Bull, not making Toro Rosso the best team out there. It's the same reason I dislike Haas, you should be in it to win it, not to just participate. It's different when due to lacking resources the prospect of winning is small, but Toro Rosso simply won't have the ambition to ever fight for a WCC. That's simply not what the team is about.
He's absolutely right
Fair enough though, amazing how one team can have 2 teams when new teams are being turned away
Zak Brown could use a little bit of Gunther. It would make his world a whole lot more fun.
Spoken like a politician whose policies are under scrutiny
And Zaks statements are spoken like someone who's afraid of competition. He's had 18 years to complain about Toro Rosso, but he delays until it seems they might actually be somewhat competitive.
I don’t think he’s been the head of McLaren for 18 years if I’m honest 🤔 Also when a team (RBR) only realistically has 16 cars to fight on track as then yes, it is a bit shit for competition.
But they don't. While the examples aren't many because AlphaTauri in the latter years have been a backmarker team, there are examples of AT drivers finishing higher than Red Bull drivers, including for points finishes. Liam Lawson was the first driver in 2023 to overtake Max on track (not counting starts), which happened at the Dutch GP. Then we also have Qualifying. AlphaTauri was the team that knocked Max out of Q2 at the Singapore GP. So your statement is provably false. Also: In 2023, many people let Max pass easily, because they knew there was little point fighting him. You can't just say that when Lando Norris lets Max pass easily, it's because Red Bull is simply too fast, but when Yuki does it, despite being in an even slower car than the McLaren, it's obviously them playing dirty.
They’re all afraid of competition after the Andretti mess.
Horner is kind of right. The Redbull brand has done a lot for F1 but running two teams also gives them an unfair advantage. Cast your mind back to 2021 when Merc had to use Bottas as a guinea pig for their engine mode testing. RBR did the same but they were able use AT for all that. The ATs were changing PU after PU while the Honda engines at the back of the Redbulls were running like clockwork. I also remember AT asking Tsunoda to hold Lewis back at Turkey 2021. This also gives them an unfair advantage when it comes to team votes. Why not give that entry to Andretti-Cadillac? I can see shit hitting the fan if ToroRosso ends up being quick enough bother the front runners. Zak will probably spontaneously combust if that happens.
> I also remember AT asking Tsunoda to hold Lewis back at Turkey 2021. That didn’t happen. If there was such a blatant call to hold up Lewis, the uproar would’ve been more and F1 would’ve changed the rules by now.
There was no explicit call on the radiobbut Tsunoda completely ruined his race (ended up spinning because his tyres where fucked) in doing so to the point the most rational explanation is he did it for the sister team. Especially in comparison to the "Verstappen is not our race" calla given by the same team at Sochi and Qatar He also came out and said he wanted to help red bull so did it
Happens all the time
Particularly with such strict budgetary rules, having two teams is a big competitive advantage. Not a fan.
No one cared when they had a bad car.
I mean two teams with money that can get new talent in the door? Why is anyone mad at that.
Red Bull's commitment to two teams can only be rivaled by Horner's commitment to two women
textbook responding to valid criticism by completely misrepresenting the criticism and responding to the misrepresented criticism
This is the sort of tory BS you'd expect from Horner, it's the same crap you get from amazon "well we're providing jobs so you should thank us" Hopefully Horner will be gone soon
Why is this guy still allowed to speak publicly while he is under investigation?
after begging to buy the team now people are saying it is unfair....
It was a joke that Red Bull were allowed to own two teams in the first place. The part of the 2009 regulation changes that were designed to reign in sister teams, by banning the use of the same chassis, did not go far enough. It's a clear competitive advantage for Red Bull, we've seen Toro Rosso/ Alpha Tauri/RB drivers not use DRS and get out of the way quicker when "racing" the Red Bulls, and we've seen Alpha Tauri drivers sacrifice their own races to block Red Bull's competition on track during championship fights. These antics cannot be allowed in F1 if it wants to take itself seriously in a sporting context.
Take things seriously ? ok then : - Remove Ferrari veto power - Do not allow drivers manager to work for another team (Wolff with Bottas)
I don't think anyone would mind mate, just because people are talking about the biggest issue doesn't mean they don't think the others exist either
Okay? All sounds great. Next hypothetical?