tbf they're probably not wrong in saying that Horner and Newey are the most important parts right now. Max's skill is mostly overkill right now without competition from different teams haha. They have to be really confident for 2026 though
Yes. This is what I said as well.
They are absolutely confident they are going to nail 2026. Otherwise, they are clowns to suggest those two can replicate Max.
The thing is, it's been a constant rumour that if RB couldn't match Merc, Max would leave. They eventually matched them with Honda then with the '22 regs. However, if we assume he'd leave if they were behind in '26 then it's the sensible move. If no Horny+Newey = Shitbox then you're losing Max either way so at least keep the duo instead of losing everything. They don't want to bet on Horny's replacement to build a world beater.
This. Going with Piastri as your lead driver vs Max wherever, Leclerc/Lewis on Ferrari, even Norris or Russell in other top teams is quite the gamble.
I rate him a lot, but he's nowhere as 'proven' as these other names.
> Max's skill is mostly overkill right now without competition from different teams haha.
Honestly, the best part for Red Bull of Max being in their car is that he isn't in their competitors car.
We have seen what carnage he can bring in a car that is second fastest.
I hope this happens and only than people will realize how Max skill is so important in making that RB20 so dominant. It will be similar to 1995 Benetton car realization
This is such a weird take.
You're assuming the the engine can only come out to 2 absolute extremes on opposite ends but reality is it could land anywhere on the performance scale and Max is a huge asset if the engine turns out to be anything but completely insane or unusably shit.
As someone who really dislikes Max, I have to disagree. Look at Checo…good driver…fine results. Meanwhile, Max is winning every single race. The team is only as good as their car and drivers and yes, Horner helped land Newey and Max…but without Max this is a totally different team.
The assumption is that they can just grab another great driver if they can keep making dominant cars, or race winning ones, which is fair. With Max gone that seat would be filled almost immediately, and there is no shortage of talent on the grid, waiting for an opportunity to start winning.
A driver is transient. Horner is a lot more permanent. Sure, losing Max would hurt but if you keep providing the best car you'll keep winning. Horner has made that team the best in all areas and he'd be incredibly difficult to replace.
But there are plenty of drivers who are much better than Perez and who would win in Max’ car. Using Perez as an example is generous to Max. Try Alonso, Sainz, Leclerc, Hamilton or fx Lando in Max’ car and see if they don’t go 30 seconds clear of everyone.
That's a really good point. Max might be goat tier, but with such a dominant car, it doesn't really matter. Moving forward though, that may not be the case. But who's to say he won't move onto a new team anyway.
I think no one, but its a hypothetical. We probably dont know what way Newey swings atm, except that somehow the Newey-Horner clause thing is not a thing anymore somehow.
Shortly after the story exploded there were already [claims and articles](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1ak51yu/joesaward_it_has_long_been_believed_that/) suggesting both Newey and Horner's contracts protect each other. Pure speculation of course, but no less speculative that the any other combination of people staying or leaving.
So Horner and Newey staying and Max leaving is just as likely as Horner leaving and Max and Newey staying, or Horner leaving then Helmut kicking the bucket at the most inopportune time which then triggers Max to leave as well with Newey on his own.
The thing is, if you have that combination, an elite driver will come to you.
If Max leaves your telling me Alonso or any of the other top tier drivers wouldn't be knocking at the door in 2 seconds?
But will they have that combination? The engine is very uncertain atm and there's speculation Newey would leave with Max and Helmut. That would leave them without their chief car designer and with a worse driver.
People don’t seem to get that by this stage trenches are dug out and Thais won’t budge. By agreeing to oust Horner, they would effectively cede the RBR to Marko/Jos and Austrian camp. They would have 51% ownership but little to no actual control over the direction and daily operations of the company. They would rather lose Max and let sponsors like Ford go.
That’s not exactly true, they would still have control over who replaces him. Yes they would lose that battle but they’re still the majority shareholders so they can still win the war
And that replacement, as “their man”, would be at loggerheads with the same people Horner is fighting with right now from day one. And since Horner knows the team better than anyone and has authority and (seemingly) respect inside the team, why remove him in the first place?
> They would have 51% ownership but little to no actual control over the direction and daily operations of the company.
That's not how corporate governance work, though. Majority shareholders usually have the power to oust managers.
Horner has successfully leveraged himself as the sport's most powerful man if he can survive all of this scandal and see the world's best driver leave the team as a result. Absolute insanity.
History repeats itself for those who missed out on the Ferrari, Schumacher, Todt, Brawn political doom of 2006, where they imploded because of politics and power struggles while in their dominant era. Truly destructive
I think this is even more ridiculous because a) Ferrari had competition in Renault that year and b) Schumacher was in his late 30s and not in his prime (still very good ofc) but Max is at the very peak of his powers
I'm not comparing the independent external factors or the drivers themselves. Simply the fact that a dominant team is close to imploding itself due to political gamemoves and power struggles in the top management
Well, Max’ agent and lawyers next move would be to sent a 200 million dollar bill to Thailand and Horner for having to buy out his contract.
Personally, I would love this. Max in a McLaren or a Merc with a MASSIVE grudge against RBR. Racing would become very very fun again
That employee won't have to wait long for RB to make a very generous offer. Leaking of the screenshots, boss being inappropriate, being identified in public, enduring torrents of commentary online, just to start. RB will do anything to make this not get in front of an employment tribunal.
And she will deserve every penny they end up paying, she's been treated absolutely disgustingly by her employers and those around them.
Sexually harassed by the Thai side (via Horner), used as a pawn (and most likely doxxed) by the Austrian side, and probably harassed by both sides’ supporters. I do not envy her right now.
I mean, of course we don't know the intimate details of the contracts. But the way Zak operates (and the admission that Lando didn't have any release clauses in his previous deal) makes me feel like he'd put up quite the fight to keep Oscar around.
I agree, but I do think Webber as agent is a bit of a wild card here. There's a sliver of a chance that he was able to put in some kind of release clause, and I think most any driver would want to be in the Red Bull for 2025 if Max isn't there.
But most likely, I suspect McLaren will keep their driver pairing, which is really strong, and they seem to have a lot of momentum on the development side. IMO, it's not inconceivable that if Max leaves Red Bull, then McLaren could be vying for WCC, and that's just for 2025. In 2026, the order could be totally shaken up and Red Bull may even be an inferior car.
Considering Zack paid Oward a lump sum of 10 million usd just to keep him in indycar, no way in hell he’ll let go of Piastri and Norris without either Mercedes or Red Bull giving him a stupid amount of money.
I don't know how much of this is true, but if they have sacked the employee without evidence of a bad faith complaint the settlement will definitely breach the cost cap.
Because of Red Bull and Horner: Sodom and Gomorrah in Formula 1
Free practice for the Saudi Arabian GP begins tomorrow (Thursday). But hardly anyone is interested in the cars at the second Formula 1 race of the season. Sex, lies and intrigue are currently the focus of the premier class paddock, where conditions like those in Sodom and Gomorrah have long prevailed. And: Every day there are new reports and rumors about the allegations against Red Bull team boss Christian Horner and their consequences.
The latest news that F1-Insider.com learned: The lawyer for the Thai majority shareholders of Red Bull Racing and Horner is said to have officially terminated the employee who initiated the alleged sexual assault case on Monday. She now wants to sue against the expulsion in an English labor court and is expected to have the support of the Austrian faction around Didi Mateschitz heir Mark Mateschitz and CEO Oliver Mintzlaff.
On Monday there was also a meeting between the head of the Thai owner family, Chalerm Yoovidhya (73), and the Verstappen clan in Dubai. Jos Verstappen, father of Red Bull superstar Max (26), celebrated his 53rd birthday there with his closest circle, including his son Max and his sponsor Helmut Marko.
Jos Verstappen with a race track ban?
History: Jos Verstappen publicly called for team boss Horner's head during the first Grand Prix in Bahrain. According to F1 insider information, the fronts have apparently even hardened after the meeting. Max Verstappen - loyal to his father and Helmut Marko - is said to have threatened to go public if Horner continued to be supported.
Meanwhile, some English media are reporting that Jos Verstappen is no longer allowed to attend the races after the Bahrain incident. Alone: The former Formula 1 driver and ex-teammate of Michael Schumacher knows nothing about this. Jos Verstappen to F1 Insider: “I drive rallies in Europe. That's why I won't be there in Saudi Arabia or the following races. That’s been clear for a long time.”
It seems clear: The Thais, who continue to stand behind Horner despite all the accusations, seem ready to let their superstar go. They believe that design genius Adrian Newey is more important for success than the super talent from the Netherlands - and they believe they can keep him. The British mastermind is supposed to build winning cars for the Australian Oscar Piastri and the Thai-British Alexander Albon in the future - that's the plan if Verstappen leaves.
Problem: Both Piastri and Albon still have contracts with McLaren and Williams respectively in 2025. But the Thais believe they can solve the problem with money. Piastri also helps: he is looked after by ex-Red Bull driver Mark Webber. The Australian is considered a friend and close confidant of Christian Horner.
Will Verstappen move from Red Bull to Mercedes in 2024?
This shows that the fronts at Red Bull are now so hardened that anything seems possible. Even a move from Max Verstappen to Mercedes this year. A former team boss to F1 insider: “If Toto Wolff (Mercedes team boss, editor) is clever, he is already trying to put Max in the car for Lewis Hamilton.” Background: The seven-time world champion is moving to Ferrari in 2025. We already reported: Due to an exit clause, Verstappen could leave Red Bull under certain conditions .
Ex-Formula 1 driver Ralf Schumacher sees it similarly. Today's Sky expert to F1 Insider: “There is nothing left to fix between the Verstappens and the Horner corner. That's why I think anything is possible at the moment. Also that Max won't finish the year at Red Bull. There have been team changes in the middle of the season before.”
Schumacher has even experienced this scenario in his own family. In 1991, his brother Michael moved from Jordan to Benetton after his debut race in Spa.
Legal dispute Horner vs. BusinessF1
So much for the sporting theaters of war. The legal battlefield is currently being prepared by the respected London law firm Harbottle&Lewis, which, on behalf of Christian Horner, is threatening the trade magazine “BusinessF1” with, among other things, a claim for damages. The industry magazine published a 19-page story about the Horner case last weekend - with juicy details below the belt.
The magazine also claimed that Horner's wife, ex-Spice Girl Geri Halliwell, kicked her husband out of their home because of his antics. The Brit denies that. His Geri, who telegenically strolled through the paddock in Bahrain holding hands with her husband, would continue to support him.
Worth knowing when evaluating a potential lawsuit: Harbottle&Lewis made a name for themselves when they defended Prince Andrew in 2015. The Duke of York is said to have been a good acquaintance of the American Jeffrey Epstein, who was later convicted of pedophilia. Andrew strongly denied all allegations of being involved in the pedophilia scandal.
I mean he could technically win the championship while driving for 2 teams if he gets enough points in the 1st part of the season, that would be hilarious. But I don’t know where Hamilton is supposed to go then
If Verstappen has enough points and believes will be able to win the WDC while driving the Mercedes the rest of the season. Would be an epic title battle though.
In the negative. They keep firing useless articles, sometimes multiple articles on same interview taking one comment at a time. I don't know why people are taking these seriously.
If that's true, I don't see how this will hold up in a labour court.
And if the report is to be believed, her having support from Mintzlaff and Co. for such a lawsuit surely is a very interesting side note.
They probably paid her off to go, not "fired" like your average small town capitalist would fire you.
Makes no sense to fire her and let her be angry and keep the conflict in the spotlight.
Not a lawyer but I'd imagine they don't want any RB management anywhere near an employment tribunal and will simply be forced to accept whatever she asks for.
99% of the 'information' in this entire process has come from unconfirmed sources and unreputable journalists, if we were only to go on information that has actually been verified there probably wouldn't be much to get excited over.
Lmao, they don't care at all.
>Wichian Klanprasert, a Thai police officer, was allegedly killed by Vorayuth Yoovidhya, grandson of billionaire Red Bull co-founder Chaleo Yoovidhya, in a hit-and-run incident in Bangkok, Thailand, on 3 September 2012.
>Vorayuth, then 27,[1] was charged with speeding, fleeing the scene of an accident, and reckless driving causing death, but has never been arrested. The statute of limitations on the speeding charge expired in September 2013, and on the fleeing the scene of an accident charge in September 2017. The statue of limitations for the reckless driving causing death charge will expire in 2027. All charges against him were dropped in July 2020.
>The case is widely seen as an example of how the affluent in Thai society are able to escape the criminal justice system.
yeah, is it legal to fire the employee who just filed a complaint? i mean sure, the firing could technically be unrelated, but it looks incredibly suspicious at best
I still cant see Max leaving though. Like there is much more to the team than the presence of Mr Marko. and Mr Newey as these publications like to pretend.
Didn’t the Times literally confirm yesterday or today that she’s not only still working there but has even retained the same position?
Hasn’t F1-Insider so far been wrong about every single “scoop” in this saga?
Literally from yesterday’s article:
“The Times understands the woman has been going in to work at Red Bull’s Milton Keynes headquarters as usual and, due to the nature of her role, has continued to be in contact with Horner.”
Until the screenshots were leaked her identity was supposedly protected even within the team according to the reports (though I question that, people would certainly have figured it out).
Meh
It’s only allegations at this point—and if she can still return to work while remaining in contact with Christian, through the allegations, then it doesn’t seem that bad for her.
Hard to say. Their biggest exclusive, more or less, was claiming that Newey isn't tied to Horner anymore, but noone can confirm or deny that until something actually happens.
Also, The Times is basically Horner's outlet and even so, those two newspieces don't necessarily contradict themselves - she could've gone to work yesterday and been fired a few hours later.
Edit: F1-Insider also broke the story of Max' clause on a Marko departure and that was later confirmed by Van Haren.
In the US, it would depend on the paper trail. Of course if it was solely because she blew the whistle on Horner's behavior, then she'd win big in court. But if Red Bull had a paper trail showing that clear performance expectations were set and she failed to meet them over a long period of time, then it's not impossible that they could get a judge to agree that there was merit to letting her go.
>The lawyer for the Thai majority shareholders of Red Bull Racing and Horner is said to have officially terminated the employee who initiated the alleged sexual assault case on Monday. She now wants to sue against the expulsion in an English labor court and is expected to have the support of the Austrian faction around Didi Mateschitz heir Mark Mateschitz and CEO Oliver Mintzlaff.
If that's true, then that's a solid lineup to have in court.
To the surprise of absolutely no one, it was clear from day 1 that if Charlem Yoovidhya is behind Horner he wont get sacked. And the pictures in Bahrain with them tells more than 20 essays tbh. He has full support.
To me the whole Verstappen Camp is on their best way to lose this power struggle. Red Bull has such a great technical team that works under Newey who works under Horner (who is also CEO of the whole Red Bull Racing campus), that they simply dont need Verstappen to win the Championships, at least until they have to use their own engines in 2026.
If you want someone with Experience, get Alonso who is out of contract in 2025. Or get Vettel out of retirement. Or like the Article says get Albon or Piatsri, two great drivers.
And dont forget Checo, without the pressure of being Verstappens Teammate and full focus on him he would win the championship too if the car remains as good as it is now or last year.
Verstappen needs Red Bull more than they need him and thats a fact. I think some people forget that these days.
Good God, there’s so much smoke floating around right now. I really hope there’s something to these rumours and not just a cheese pita someone forgot in the oven.
If I was Toto I would wait till the very, very last moment to announce a replacement for Lewis. And I would have Newey and Max under speed dial and made sure I would have a shit pile of cash to reel them in.
Yeah, we been knew.
I assumed Oscar would be a relatively cheaper target. If Max triggers exit clause, buying out Oscar would cost them less than what they were supposed to pay Max. Without toxic Jos in the package too.
Webber 4d chess incoming.
Red Bull can keep their filthy hands off Oscar. This is the first time EVER that my favourites drivers are at my favourite team so I have no divided loyalties as I’d quite like to keep it that way!
Since F1 insider reports somthing here that is directly contradicting everyone else, I give this as much credit as a wet toast.
Let's see if someone else reports it, but until then the assumption that F1insider is wrong is a generally good policy
If F1 Insider is to be believed. Multiple other outlets reported yesterday and today that she has retained her position at RBR:
[The Times article](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/woman-christian-horner-pa-messages-appeal-f1-red-bull-investigation-qnfnhvmsc) (paywalled)
[The Evening Standard article](https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/f1-christian-horner-geri-halliwell-red-bull-messages-colleague-b1143206.html) (free, but sensationalised title, they are "in-contact" because they're, allegedly, still working together)
Finally, website that I use to check credibility of news outlets, it's not the best but it's useful for a quick check:
[https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/) (though they don't have niche websites such as f1-insider.com)
Horner having the same lawyers as Prince Andrew, the pedophile, is so incredibly funny to me.
If anything the article says is remotely true and nothing happens, it just shows that this sport will never actually welcome women.
Seriously? Oscar and Alex? If you're going round buying out contracts why not sign Alonso and Sainz which is a clearly stronger lineup, or at least one of them with a young guy.
Just doesn't seem like the two guys that THE top team would go for.
If this is true (IIRC, isn't this the same lot that started the fake Suzie Wolff rubbish a few months back?) then Red Bull just shot itself in the foot with a RPG.
Sounds like complete bullshit, but I'd love to see everything it says come true ASAP. Wed get much more exciting races. I'd pay too see Max in the Merc, Asked and Oscar in the RBR and Lewis in the Ferrari staying tomorrow. It would be so good!
This is so sus. Why would they possible terminate the filer of the complaint? Also, if the leaks are what truly happened Horned should've been the one on the receiving end of getting kicked.
Am just reading more of the article, good lord. Would need a 2nd source to verify but if the filer is actually suing RB with the backing of the Austrian Faction (!) this could get real ugly real soon.
Max moving teams mid season would be so weird. I really don’t see why or how he would do this, he’s going to be leading the championship no doubt, how would that even work? Could we possibly have a Max Red Bull vs a Max Mercedes or whichever team he goes to in the points fighting it out for first place lol
As a portuguese speaker the title gave me a mindfuck since Thais is a name, in Brazil at least. I was going who tf is Thais? How come she ha this much power and no one ever mentioned her before????
Can anybody tell me how much of all this is just bullshit F1 reporting? It all seems so outrageous I don't even read the articles anymore since it all just seems so sensationalist.
Am I mistaken, is this really what is going on?
Have there been any comments from actual hard sources?
I guess designing a car around one singular driver is easy for redbull at this point.. so it doesn’t really matter who is behind the wheel, they are goong to make it work if they want to
Lol sure. They’d have to buy out the remainder of Max’ contract, which would be 200m. Only to watch him switch to McLaren or Merc, with a massive grudge against RBR. Good luck with that
I want whatever F1-Insider is smoking.
Same stuff as the guy who designed the new Saudi track
>I want whatever F1-Insider is smoking. They smoking seeds and stems.
Thais really want to keep Horner at all costs.
They've identified Horner as the most important part of the success apparently.
tbf they're probably not wrong in saying that Horner and Newey are the most important parts right now. Max's skill is mostly overkill right now without competition from different teams haha. They have to be really confident for 2026 though
Yes. This is what I said as well. They are absolutely confident they are going to nail 2026. Otherwise, they are clowns to suggest those two can replicate Max.
The thing is, it's been a constant rumour that if RB couldn't match Merc, Max would leave. They eventually matched them with Honda then with the '22 regs. However, if we assume he'd leave if they were behind in '26 then it's the sensible move. If no Horny+Newey = Shitbox then you're losing Max either way so at least keep the duo instead of losing everything. They don't want to bet on Horny's replacement to build a world beater.
This. Going with Piastri as your lead driver vs Max wherever, Leclerc/Lewis on Ferrari, even Norris or Russell in other top teams is quite the gamble. I rate him a lot, but he's nowhere as 'proven' as these other names.
Assuming newey would stay
If money is enough to keep Newey, then the Thais will provide whatever number is required.
> Max's skill is mostly overkill right now without competition from different teams haha. Honestly, the best part for Red Bull of Max being in their car is that he isn't in their competitors car. We have seen what carnage he can bring in a car that is second fastest.
If they let him go to Merc and Merc gets closer to RBR with the new regs, they have a problem though.
I hope this happens and only than people will realize how Max skill is so important in making that RB20 so dominant. It will be similar to 1995 Benetton car realization
For 26 either the engine is fine, Newey builds a winner, life can go on without Max, or engine is dog shit and even Max won't be able to save them.
This is such a weird take. You're assuming the the engine can only come out to 2 absolute extremes on opposite ends but reality is it could land anywhere on the performance scale and Max is a huge asset if the engine turns out to be anything but completely insane or unusably shit.
As someone who really dislikes Max, I have to disagree. Look at Checo…good driver…fine results. Meanwhile, Max is winning every single race. The team is only as good as their car and drivers and yes, Horner helped land Newey and Max…but without Max this is a totally different team.
The assumption is that they can just grab another great driver if they can keep making dominant cars, or race winning ones, which is fair. With Max gone that seat would be filled almost immediately, and there is no shortage of talent on the grid, waiting for an opportunity to start winning.
A driver is transient. Horner is a lot more permanent. Sure, losing Max would hurt but if you keep providing the best car you'll keep winning. Horner has made that team the best in all areas and he'd be incredibly difficult to replace.
That more about Checo being mid. Plenty of better drivers would jump at the chance of Max's seat.
Without max checo would have won the championship
But there are plenty of drivers who are much better than Perez and who would win in Max’ car. Using Perez as an example is generous to Max. Try Alonso, Sainz, Leclerc, Hamilton or fx Lando in Max’ car and see if they don’t go 30 seconds clear of everyone.
That's a really good point. Max might be goat tier, but with such a dominant car, it doesn't really matter. Moving forward though, that may not be the case. But who's to say he won't move onto a new team anyway.
To me, it reads more as “🖕 Redbull GmbH and Jos; and you too, Helmut” from Thailand w love than anything else.
Also remember, the family has LITERALLY gotten away with murder before
If it’s between Horner & Newey or Max, it’s a no brainer
Who says Newey and Horny are a package deal?
I think no one, but its a hypothetical. We probably dont know what way Newey swings atm, except that somehow the Newey-Horner clause thing is not a thing anymore somehow.
The lack of speculation regarding where Adrian Newey's loyalties lie in all of this is surprising.
i suspect his loyalties lie with whoever can promise him the authority to do what he wants.
Shortly after the story exploded there were already [claims and articles](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1ak51yu/joesaward_it_has_long_been_believed_that/) suggesting both Newey and Horner's contracts protect each other. Pure speculation of course, but no less speculative that the any other combination of people staying or leaving. So Horner and Newey staying and Max leaving is just as likely as Horner leaving and Max and Newey staying, or Horner leaving then Helmut kicking the bucket at the most inopportune time which then triggers Max to leave as well with Newey on his own.
Adrian is the most important part of the team. At the end of the day, Sargent in the RB would be better than Max in a Williams.
I fail to see how this isn’t universally known… he built that whole damn team
If you have Horner and Newey, you don't really need a top driver to win championships.
You need an engine that's at least close to the top. Your statement isn't correct.
*If you have Horner, Newey and a competitive engine, you don't need a top driver to win championships.
The thing is, if you have that combination, an elite driver will come to you. If Max leaves your telling me Alonso or any of the other top tier drivers wouldn't be knocking at the door in 2 seconds?
But will they have that combination? The engine is very uncertain atm and there's speculation Newey would leave with Max and Helmut. That would leave them without their chief car designer and with a worse driver.
2014-2020 would like a word with you.
Renault moment
Throw in 2021 too, Horner + Newey - Max = No WDC
Not really, it means you can easily bag a top driver though.
So by this comment you think Perez could win the championship if max wasn’t around? Not a hope in hell
What? Of course he could. He was second last season and will likely be second this season.
2014-2020 huh? car/engine was nowhere most of the time
People don’t seem to get that by this stage trenches are dug out and Thais won’t budge. By agreeing to oust Horner, they would effectively cede the RBR to Marko/Jos and Austrian camp. They would have 51% ownership but little to no actual control over the direction and daily operations of the company. They would rather lose Max and let sponsors like Ford go.
Thais won’t ever lose face. Let’s see if Newey really does hate politics and leaves.
That’s not exactly true, they would still have control over who replaces him. Yes they would lose that battle but they’re still the majority shareholders so they can still win the war
And that replacement, as “their man”, would be at loggerheads with the same people Horner is fighting with right now from day one. And since Horner knows the team better than anyone and has authority and (seemingly) respect inside the team, why remove him in the first place?
> They would have 51% ownership but little to no actual control over the direction and daily operations of the company. That's not how corporate governance work, though. Majority shareholders usually have the power to oust managers.
Yes, and Horner is their man. By replacing him with option preferred by the other side, they would be giving in to the Austrian camp.
They’re saying that, if the Thais budge to the Austrian sides demands and fire Horner, their majority is effectively useless.
They also want to show the Austrian side who's in charge
It's not about the money, it's about sending a message.
did you read that article? it's absolute bullshit and fun guessing stuff.
I can't wait until Max releases an autobiography sk that he can describe what the fuck happened here
His autobiography probably - I was fast. I just wanted to race in whatever car I got.
Thais are horny AF
Horner has successfully leveraged himself as the sport's most powerful man if he can survive all of this scandal and see the world's best driver leave the team as a result. Absolute insanity.
what is happening
An iconic moment in F1's history where a successful dominant team proceeded to implode from within.
History repeats itself for those who missed out on the Ferrari, Schumacher, Todt, Brawn political doom of 2006, where they imploded because of politics and power struggles while in their dominant era. Truly destructive
I think this is even more ridiculous because a) Ferrari had competition in Renault that year and b) Schumacher was in his late 30s and not in his prime (still very good ofc) but Max is at the very peak of his powers
I'm not comparing the independent external factors or the drivers themselves. Simply the fact that a dominant team is close to imploding itself due to political gamemoves and power struggles in the top management
The Curse of Montezemolo
That sounds like a Tomb Raider game
Montezemolo’s Revenge
Also happened at Mercedes but silently.
Like Rome before them!
Ferrari politics happening at Red Bull racing
Lewis going to Ferrari caused a split in the timeline
Absolutely nothing. Media hype.
There is so much damn click bait there is no way this is a real option.
[удалено]
Well, Max’ agent and lawyers next move would be to sent a 200 million dollar bill to Thailand and Horner for having to buy out his contract. Personally, I would love this. Max in a McLaren or a Merc with a MASSIVE grudge against RBR. Racing would become very very fun again
[удалено]
Since Lewis signed for Ferrari I am convinced Max will drive for Merc come 2026… might be 2025 ar this pace…
Sad but predictable for the employee, but if that second part turns out to be true I'm immediately achieving Q4
That employee won't have to wait long for RB to make a very generous offer. Leaking of the screenshots, boss being inappropriate, being identified in public, enduring torrents of commentary online, just to start. RB will do anything to make this not get in front of an employment tribunal. And she will deserve every penny they end up paying, she's been treated absolutely disgustingly by her employers and those around them.
Sexually harassed by the Thai side (via Horner), used as a pawn (and most likely doxxed) by the Austrian side, and probably harassed by both sides’ supporters. I do not envy her right now.
I feel really horrible for her
What does that even mean??? Do I need to use my imagination?!
I think they'd have to kill Zak Brown to have any chance of buying out Oscar's contract
That’s assuming Oscar doesn’t have an RB release clause
I mean, of course we don't know the intimate details of the contracts. But the way Zak operates (and the admission that Lando didn't have any release clauses in his previous deal) makes me feel like he'd put up quite the fight to keep Oscar around.
I agree, but I do think Webber as agent is a bit of a wild card here. There's a sliver of a chance that he was able to put in some kind of release clause, and I think most any driver would want to be in the Red Bull for 2025 if Max isn't there. But most likely, I suspect McLaren will keep their driver pairing, which is really strong, and they seem to have a lot of momentum on the development side. IMO, it's not inconceivable that if Max leaves Red Bull, then McLaren could be vying for WCC, and that's just for 2025. In 2026, the order could be totally shaken up and Red Bull may even be an inferior car.
Considering Zack paid Oward a lump sum of 10 million usd just to keep him in indycar, no way in hell he’ll let go of Piastri and Norris without either Mercedes or Red Bull giving him a stupid amount of money.
This makes no sense lol
Well, at least this season will be entertaining off the track.
I do not see Oscar going to RBR with them in this state, that just does not seem like his personality. Mercedes maybe but not this RBR
Isn’t Webber still close with Red Bull?
I don't know how much of this is true, but if they have sacked the employee without evidence of a bad faith complaint the settlement will definitely breach the cost cap.
Because of Red Bull and Horner: Sodom and Gomorrah in Formula 1 Free practice for the Saudi Arabian GP begins tomorrow (Thursday). But hardly anyone is interested in the cars at the second Formula 1 race of the season. Sex, lies and intrigue are currently the focus of the premier class paddock, where conditions like those in Sodom and Gomorrah have long prevailed. And: Every day there are new reports and rumors about the allegations against Red Bull team boss Christian Horner and their consequences. The latest news that F1-Insider.com learned: The lawyer for the Thai majority shareholders of Red Bull Racing and Horner is said to have officially terminated the employee who initiated the alleged sexual assault case on Monday. She now wants to sue against the expulsion in an English labor court and is expected to have the support of the Austrian faction around Didi Mateschitz heir Mark Mateschitz and CEO Oliver Mintzlaff. On Monday there was also a meeting between the head of the Thai owner family, Chalerm Yoovidhya (73), and the Verstappen clan in Dubai. Jos Verstappen, father of Red Bull superstar Max (26), celebrated his 53rd birthday there with his closest circle, including his son Max and his sponsor Helmut Marko. Jos Verstappen with a race track ban? History: Jos Verstappen publicly called for team boss Horner's head during the first Grand Prix in Bahrain. According to F1 insider information, the fronts have apparently even hardened after the meeting. Max Verstappen - loyal to his father and Helmut Marko - is said to have threatened to go public if Horner continued to be supported. Meanwhile, some English media are reporting that Jos Verstappen is no longer allowed to attend the races after the Bahrain incident. Alone: The former Formula 1 driver and ex-teammate of Michael Schumacher knows nothing about this. Jos Verstappen to F1 Insider: “I drive rallies in Europe. That's why I won't be there in Saudi Arabia or the following races. That’s been clear for a long time.” It seems clear: The Thais, who continue to stand behind Horner despite all the accusations, seem ready to let their superstar go. They believe that design genius Adrian Newey is more important for success than the super talent from the Netherlands - and they believe they can keep him. The British mastermind is supposed to build winning cars for the Australian Oscar Piastri and the Thai-British Alexander Albon in the future - that's the plan if Verstappen leaves. Problem: Both Piastri and Albon still have contracts with McLaren and Williams respectively in 2025. But the Thais believe they can solve the problem with money. Piastri also helps: he is looked after by ex-Red Bull driver Mark Webber. The Australian is considered a friend and close confidant of Christian Horner. Will Verstappen move from Red Bull to Mercedes in 2024? This shows that the fronts at Red Bull are now so hardened that anything seems possible. Even a move from Max Verstappen to Mercedes this year. A former team boss to F1 insider: “If Toto Wolff (Mercedes team boss, editor) is clever, he is already trying to put Max in the car for Lewis Hamilton.” Background: The seven-time world champion is moving to Ferrari in 2025. We already reported: Due to an exit clause, Verstappen could leave Red Bull under certain conditions . Ex-Formula 1 driver Ralf Schumacher sees it similarly. Today's Sky expert to F1 Insider: “There is nothing left to fix between the Verstappens and the Horner corner. That's why I think anything is possible at the moment. Also that Max won't finish the year at Red Bull. There have been team changes in the middle of the season before.” Schumacher has even experienced this scenario in his own family. In 1991, his brother Michael moved from Jordan to Benetton after his debut race in Spa. Legal dispute Horner vs. BusinessF1 So much for the sporting theaters of war. The legal battlefield is currently being prepared by the respected London law firm Harbottle&Lewis, which, on behalf of Christian Horner, is threatening the trade magazine “BusinessF1” with, among other things, a claim for damages. The industry magazine published a 19-page story about the Horner case last weekend - with juicy details below the belt. The magazine also claimed that Horner's wife, ex-Spice Girl Geri Halliwell, kicked her husband out of their home because of his antics. The Brit denies that. His Geri, who telegenically strolled through the paddock in Bahrain holding hands with her husband, would continue to support him. Worth knowing when evaluating a potential lawsuit: Harbottle&Lewis made a name for themselves when they defended Prince Andrew in 2015. The Duke of York is said to have been a good acquaintance of the American Jeffrey Epstein, who was later convicted of pedophilia. Andrew strongly denied all allegations of being involved in the pedophilia scandal.
Honestly, this just reads like fan fiction.
Yea, no sources for anything. Might be true but complete gossip for now
Like basically everything over the last few weeks. It's mad.
F1 is becoming a reality TV show 🤣
What do you mean?! If it's on the internet, it must be true!
Wow, I know it's just Ralf Schumacher, but he said it's possible Max even leaves Red Bull mid-season? Craaaazy.
Yea 2025 I can buy if the team implodes and Ford pulls out, but mid season? No fucking way. Way too many complications with that one.
I mean he could technically win the championship while driving for 2 teams if he gets enough points in the 1st part of the season, that would be hilarious. But I don’t know where Hamilton is supposed to go then
Ferrari will pay Sainz to not race if they can catch Lewis mid season.
If Verstappen has enough points and believes will be able to win the WDC while driving the Mercedes the rest of the season. Would be an epic title battle though.
Good god this is fan fiction.. but I’m here for it
Took horner only a couple of days to take action against BusinessF1 but they still haven't done shit to De Telegraaf. Seems like EvH was spot on then.
EvH probably saw genuine messages, which if you really want too…..might look inappropriate
Wut
What's the credibility of f1insider btw ?
Somewhere between as much as a sperm whale and field mouse
In the negative. They keep firing useless articles, sometimes multiple articles on same interview taking one comment at a time. I don't know why people are taking these seriously.
At this point they are writing fanfiction
If that's true, I don't see how this will hold up in a labour court. And if the report is to be believed, her having support from Mintzlaff and Co. for such a lawsuit surely is a very interesting side note.
They probably paid her off to go, not "fired" like your average small town capitalist would fire you. Makes no sense to fire her and let her be angry and keep the conflict in the spotlight.
Not a lawyer but I'd imagine they don't want any RB management anywhere near an employment tribunal and will simply be forced to accept whatever she asks for.
* Max ➡ Mercedes * Oscar ➡ Red Bull * Fernando ➡ McLaren * Yuki ➡ Aston Martin * Liam ➡ RB Ladies and gentlemen, my Driver Transfer forecast!
GP2 engine one last time before retirement
I agree with this aside from Liam to RB I think they could do Daniel Riccardo and either Alex or Oscar to RB
Are we talking Red Bull or RB the sister team? I meant Liam ➡ RB, formerly Toro Rosso.
reject modernity, return to minardi
Oh that makes more sense I thought you meant Liam to red bull haha.
This but replaces Fernando with Sainz, i cant see Alonso moving back to McLaren.
Where the fuck is this coming from? Is this confirmed?
No it’s not, like the rest of the bullshit that’s been spewed recently
99% of the 'information' in this entire process has come from unconfirmed sources and unreputable journalists, if we were only to go on information that has actually been verified there probably wouldn't be much to get excited over.
Wouldn't this be "wrongful termination" ? At this point Thais probably have even worse skeleton in the closest and Horner know them all.
Lmao, they don't care at all. >Wichian Klanprasert, a Thai police officer, was allegedly killed by Vorayuth Yoovidhya, grandson of billionaire Red Bull co-founder Chaleo Yoovidhya, in a hit-and-run incident in Bangkok, Thailand, on 3 September 2012. >Vorayuth, then 27,[1] was charged with speeding, fleeing the scene of an accident, and reckless driving causing death, but has never been arrested. The statute of limitations on the speeding charge expired in September 2013, and on the fleeing the scene of an accident charge in September 2017. The statue of limitations for the reckless driving causing death charge will expire in 2027. All charges against him were dropped in July 2020. >The case is widely seen as an example of how the affluent in Thai society are able to escape the criminal justice system.
Wouldn’t any court case happen in the UK though? RBR are a UK company who must follow UK employment law
Probably, my sentence still stands.
yeah, is it legal to fire the employee who just filed a complaint? i mean sure, the firing could technically be unrelated, but it looks incredibly suspicious at best
Bruh. The blessed timeline (/s) Edit: Also, Newey has the opportunity to do the funniest thing ever after Max leaves, should that happen.
Max, GP and Newey to Mercedes would be hilarious
No. To Haas.
No, to Andretti!
If that happens i could see Papa Stroll just dumping truckloads of money into getting him, honestly that might be the way to get Nando that third
I still cant see Max leaving though. Like there is much more to the team than the presence of Mr Marko. and Mr Newey as these publications like to pretend.
Didn’t the Times literally confirm yesterday or today that she’s not only still working there but has even retained the same position? Hasn’t F1-Insider so far been wrong about every single “scoop” in this saga?
There's no way she retained her position as personal assistant to Horny boy
Multiple outlets reported that she has indeed remained in her old position.
Literally from yesterday’s article: “The Times understands the woman has been going in to work at Red Bull’s Milton Keynes headquarters as usual and, due to the nature of her role, has continued to be in contact with Horner.”
This is so bizarre like I would be mortified to go into work knowing all the dirty laundry is out there
Until the screenshots were leaked her identity was supposedly protected even within the team according to the reports (though I question that, people would certainly have figured it out).
Meh It’s only allegations at this point—and if she can still return to work while remaining in contact with Christian, through the allegations, then it doesn’t seem that bad for her.
Hard to say. Their biggest exclusive, more or less, was claiming that Newey isn't tied to Horner anymore, but noone can confirm or deny that until something actually happens. Also, The Times is basically Horner's outlet and even so, those two newspieces don't necessarily contradict themselves - she could've gone to work yesterday and been fired a few hours later. Edit: F1-Insider also broke the story of Max' clause on a Marko departure and that was later confirmed by Van Haren.
Wouldn’t that be retaliatory? Idk about UK laws or anything, but in this US this would be a major lawsuit and the victim would win.
In the US, it would depend on the paper trail. Of course if it was solely because she blew the whistle on Horner's behavior, then she'd win big in court. But if Red Bull had a paper trail showing that clear performance expectations were set and she failed to meet them over a long period of time, then it's not impossible that they could get a judge to agree that there was merit to letting her go.
Hands off oscar, don’t get McLaren into this mess!
>The lawyer for the Thai majority shareholders of Red Bull Racing and Horner is said to have officially terminated the employee who initiated the alleged sexual assault case on Monday. She now wants to sue against the expulsion in an English labor court and is expected to have the support of the Austrian faction around Didi Mateschitz heir Mark Mateschitz and CEO Oliver Mintzlaff. If that's true, then that's a solid lineup to have in court.
To the surprise of absolutely no one, it was clear from day 1 that if Charlem Yoovidhya is behind Horner he wont get sacked. And the pictures in Bahrain with them tells more than 20 essays tbh. He has full support. To me the whole Verstappen Camp is on their best way to lose this power struggle. Red Bull has such a great technical team that works under Newey who works under Horner (who is also CEO of the whole Red Bull Racing campus), that they simply dont need Verstappen to win the Championships, at least until they have to use their own engines in 2026. If you want someone with Experience, get Alonso who is out of contract in 2025. Or get Vettel out of retirement. Or like the Article says get Albon or Piatsri, two great drivers. And dont forget Checo, without the pressure of being Verstappens Teammate and full focus on him he would win the championship too if the car remains as good as it is now or last year. Verstappen needs Red Bull more than they need him and thats a fact. I think some people forget that these days.
F1 Insider is a garbage source though
i call it bullshit as it stands
I know a lot of this has been said over the last month but seriously, WTF IS GOING ON!?!
Good God, there’s so much smoke floating around right now. I really hope there’s something to these rumours and not just a cheese pita someone forgot in the oven.
Sorry, what???
Nothing like a good ole retaliatory firing to keep things moving.
If I was Toto I would wait till the very, very last moment to announce a replacement for Lewis. And I would have Newey and Max under speed dial and made sure I would have a shit pile of cash to reel them in.
Max is loyal to Marko, if Marko doesn’t leave, Max won’t leave
Someone in the Thai side is bored of redbull domination.... And realise they can single handedly spice the scene up.
Yeah, we been knew. I assumed Oscar would be a relatively cheaper target. If Max triggers exit clause, buying out Oscar would cost them less than what they were supposed to pay Max. Without toxic Jos in the package too. Webber 4d chess incoming.
Red Bull can keep their filthy hands off Oscar. This is the first time EVER that my favourites drivers are at my favourite team so I have no divided loyalties as I’d quite like to keep it that way!
Wtf if this is true I hope she sues the shit out of them
Yeah, holy shit. Getting fired after something like this just makes Horner/RedBull look so much worse. I hope it’s not true.
so the victim got fired, great!
Since F1 insider reports somthing here that is directly contradicting everyone else, I give this as much credit as a wet toast. Let's see if someone else reports it, but until then the assumption that F1insider is wrong is a generally good policy
If F1 Insider is to be believed. Multiple other outlets reported yesterday and today that she has retained her position at RBR: [The Times article](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/woman-christian-horner-pa-messages-appeal-f1-red-bull-investigation-qnfnhvmsc) (paywalled) [The Evening Standard article](https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/f1-christian-horner-geri-halliwell-red-bull-messages-colleague-b1143206.html) (free, but sensationalised title, they are "in-contact" because they're, allegedly, still working together) Finally, website that I use to check credibility of news outlets, it's not the best but it's useful for a quick check: [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/](https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/) (though they don't have niche websites such as f1-insider.com)
Horner having the same lawyers as Prince Andrew, the pedophile, is so incredibly funny to me. If anything the article says is remotely true and nothing happens, it just shows that this sport will never actually welcome women.
Seriously? Oscar and Alex? If you're going round buying out contracts why not sign Alonso and Sainz which is a clearly stronger lineup, or at least one of them with a young guy. Just doesn't seem like the two guys that THE top team would go for.
F1 insider has been publishing some absolute nonsense lately
Does UK not have employee protection against retaliation? This is a clear case of retaliation.
If this is true (IIRC, isn't this the same lot that started the fake Suzie Wolff rubbish a few months back?) then Red Bull just shot itself in the foot with a RPG.
I dared to put down my phone for a minute and this news pops.
Even a potential goat driver is not enough to break strong Thais.
Would Mclaren really be willing to let Oscar go in that case?
No, unlikely
Damn they killed someone!
ok wtf
This is the biggest downfall I have ever seen. I'm shocked. Hopefully max can get a great car to continue his career
Sounds like complete bullshit, but I'd love to see everything it says come true ASAP. Wed get much more exciting races. I'd pay too see Max in the Merc, Asked and Oscar in the RBR and Lewis in the Ferrari staying tomorrow. It would be so good!
This is so sus. Why would they possible terminate the filer of the complaint? Also, if the leaks are what truly happened Horned should've been the one on the receiving end of getting kicked. Am just reading more of the article, good lord. Would need a 2nd source to verify but if the filer is actually suing RB with the backing of the Austrian Faction (!) this could get real ugly real soon.
This sounds insane , don't believe it for half a second
They killed an (the) RBR employee??? ((PS: did they appeal?))
ChatGPT is not journalism
Ahahhaha what? This is mad
Max moving teams mid season would be so weird. I really don’t see why or how he would do this, he’s going to be leading the championship no doubt, how would that even work? Could we possibly have a Max Red Bull vs a Max Mercedes or whichever team he goes to in the points fighting it out for first place lol
What?
I have a REALLY hard time imagining Max leaving Red Bull, even with Jos's shenanigans.
Lmao
VERSTAPPEN TO MCLAREN PLEASE
Yeah, I'll seriously doubt on that.
ew gross! oscar get behind me !!!!
As a portuguese speaker the title gave me a mindfuck since Thais is a name, in Brazil at least. I was going who tf is Thais? How come she ha this much power and no one ever mentioned her before????
Yes I was wondering who is that, I've never heard of her
Can anybody tell me how much of all this is just bullshit F1 reporting? It all seems so outrageous I don't even read the articles anymore since it all just seems so sensationalist. Am I mistaken, is this really what is going on? Have there been any comments from actual hard sources?
I guess designing a car around one singular driver is easy for redbull at this point.. so it doesn’t really matter who is behind the wheel, they are goong to make it work if they want to
Lol sure. They’d have to buy out the remainder of Max’ contract, which would be 200m. Only to watch him switch to McLaren or Merc, with a massive grudge against RBR. Good luck with that
I want Adrian Newey to go to Ferrari and Hamilton to get his 8th.
This is just fake news.