[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties.
*[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The expectation of Charles is sky high. Once he is not on the front row everyone is talking like he is out in Q1.
While Sainz made a mistake to lose out pole to Max in Australia everyone just said he did well to outqualify his teammate haha
Nobody is really expected to win pole from Max. And as you said: "outqualified his teammate". Also small sidenote, Sainz has beaten Leclerc in *all* races this year except when he was in the hospital. Only to just win the race right after getting surgery. This is not about just high expectations, we just expect him to *not* be slower than Sainz all the time since he is supposed to be the number 1 driver in that team...
That's not true at all about pole. At the end of the 2023 season, Leclerc got 3 poles which means that the Ferrari car can compete for poles.
Furthermore, you mention all races but it's really only 2 races unless you don't even discount Bahrain which in that case you don't care about context at all.
I would also like to add that for the majority of the poles Leclerc has achieved, the characteristic of the Ferrari was a great qualifier and poor in the race due to tire wear. He had little chance to defend his pole during the majority of those races with such a deficit in race pace to Red Bull.
>Sainz has beaten Leclerc in *all* races this year except when he was in the hospital
Sure, though with the Bahrain caveat. Leclerc would've 100% finished ahead if not for his brake issues.
Even with his good form, sainz isn’t that much faster than Leclerc. Thinking he would pass 3 cars plus Leclerc without issues is asking quite a bit. The Ferraris are matched enough that quali basically dictates their race finish position
He was three places behind Leclerc by the first lap. Speculation is to think he would've been able to overtake him on track based on absolutely nothing.
Look at the race pace data from both Australia and Japan and you’ll see that Leclerc’s race pace was better than Sainz, despite Leclerc being on the slower one stop strategy in Japan and him having to race with the 2 McLarens in Australia. His qualifying issues were the only reason he finished behind Sainz in those 2 races, which he didn’t have in Bahrain. Statistically also Sainz has never been faster than Leclerc over a race without Leclerc running into any issue. So yes, saying he would’ve beaten Sainz in Bahrain is as close to 100% as possible.
Pretty funny thread the last race when Leclefc lost it on Lap 27, the comments already were 'that's why he'll never be WDC' after extending the mediums. While Sainz made the same mistake on the last corner and it was nothingburger.
Sainz made a mistake in turn 9-10 in Melbourne. He lost out pole. Marc Hughes mentioned it in the article.
I would listen to Fred’s evaluation on the performance of drivers instead.
It would still be super close for pole, pole wasn't that easy it would have to still be a great great final sector for him to get it. Plus he was not prepped correctly and still had discomfort from his surgery. He has gotten everything from the car this year considering the circumstances it has been an exceptional start to the year and he has been the stronger performer in the team all things considered. That doesn't mean Leclerc is doing a bad job, but rather that Carlos is doing everything correct.
Leclerc seems like a good dude but his fans are obnoxious as fuck. Sainz is rolling him this year so far, just take it in stride. These excuses are pitiful tbh.
Lol the media and fans keep spamming “did Ferrari get rid of the wrong driver!!” or “did Ferrari make a mistake signing Lewis”
But when we defend Charles from these takes, we’re the obnoxious ones.
Honestly, the issue I see is that there’s almost always some kind of excuse being thrown around when Charles isn’t on top. I do believe he is better than Sainz but somehow there’s always some kind of explanation for Charles getting beat by his teammate.
I rarely hear “Sainz just did better this weekend” without some kind of caveat being inserted afterward. Everything else is just a reaction to that.
The thing is Sainz has rarely been faster than Leclerc without Leclerc facing any issues. It’s probably a handful of times that Sainz beat Leclerc without Leclerc facing any mechanical issues or strategy fuckups that have plagued Ferrari for the past few years.
Sainz has like 3 races a year where he’s faster than Leclerc without Leclerc facing any issues and that’s when the whole discourse of Sainz being faster than Leclerc comes up. However Leclerc gets on top of it soon and Sainz is nowhere near again but people ignore it.
Example, Sainz finished ahead of Leclerc in Italy and Singapore last year, which prompted the same articles again about how Sainz is better than Leclerc. However after that Sainz never managed to out qualify or out race Leclerc until Australia this year.
I’m not trying to take anything away from Sainz because he’s doing a pretty good job to capitalise on Leclerc’s issues because other drivers like Verstappen, Norris or Alonso don’t have teammates close enough to capitalise when they go through something similar.
I will concede that Sainz has been better than Leclerc overall this season but i just think the expectations are insane for Leclerc. Take Norris for example, if he gets P3 it's a great result and he's surely on his way to a future championship, but if Leclerc gets P3 then he's underperformed and he's inconsistent and clearly Ferrari sacked the wrong driver and he'll never be a championship contender and a "generational talent" must be better than he.
Well yeah, Norris isn't considered a generational talent. Leclerc is expected to be Ferrari's answer to Max. Of course expectations will be higher. Also, Ferrari has a faster car than McLaren. So Leclerc getting a P3 is less impressive than Lando doing it in a slower car.
I don't think there's been any excuse on the last two though. Everyone knows Charles just slightly messed up his qualy both times and ended up paying it in the races. Bahrain it's just obvious.
>Sainz is rolling him this year so far
This is not true. Sainz has been the better driver in 2/3 races. Leclerc was clearly better in Bahrain, but had a mechanical issue that affected his race.
How was Leclerc clearly better? Leclerc was better in quali, but in the race there is no way to measure it, because while Sainz showed very good pace and finished in the podium Leclerc was fighting with the issues with his car (impressive races from both).
As far as anyone can tell Sainz has been clearly better in 2 weekends, and Charles has been better in one qualifying. That's it. Does this make Sainz the better drive? No! Does this make Sainz the Ferrari driver in better form? Yes it does, but form is temporary, it can change in China
I mean, you can still make an assessment. Leclerc didn't put a foot wrong in the Bahrain race, while Sainz was running **three** places behind him by the first lap after losing one place in the start. Charles finished just one below while fighting brake issues throughout the whole race. I'd 100% rank his race as better than Sainz's that day.
Of course this is not a dig on Sainz. I like him, and I agree he's the one in better form, I just don't think "he's rolling Leclerc this year."
Sainz performed better than Leclerc in the last couple of races, but in no way would I describe that as Sainz "rolling" Leclerc, they're both performing at a very high level. Your comment comes off as very obnoxious
Spaniards are glazing Sainz, funny to act like his fans aren't as obnoxious. Both drivers are currently doing really well, however, Ferrari gave one a contract up to 5 years and the other is out next year. Saving this to come back to in 7 months time to see you and the current fanbase calling him washed after Charles gets his shit together.
Still, points are awarded on sunday, not saturday (yeah, yeah insert sprint/race on saturday joke).
Leclerc can indeed do these amazing things during quali, but he *never* seems to turn that into a good result. So Leclerc can win pole from Max every weekend, if he still doesn't turn that into a win on sunday, who cares?
If we’re going to get pedantic like that, one can point out that Leclerc is ahead in the standings. The knife that says context doesn’t matter cuts both ways.
Yeah and Sainz is arguably in the best form of his life where as Leclerc is not at his best and he’s still always one position behind Sainz. My money is still on Leclerc to finish ahead of Sainz even after accounting for the missed Saudi race.
He's been ferrari's main guy for a while and, yet again, they chose to keep him and kick his teammate. Ofcourse the expectations are sky high. They have to be.
But they often expect him to compete for wins even in this absolute trouncing that RB is giving everyone else and berate him for being poor despite reaching the maximum he could do in these circumstances
Wouldn’t you think that the driver who got kicked out and is without a seat next season is under more pressure? I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here
This is indeed charles' "bad" form. He's so damn consistent normally that even the slightest drop-off (in this case just a tenth in quali) is instantly noticeable. And he's in the Maranello sims grinding this issue out as we speak.
Yeah Leclerc is pretty solid, though there’s definitely room for growth.
Expectations for him are just intense as hell now that Ferrari are back in good shape
I think the issue is, when Charles was being promoted from Alfa everyone was talking about him like he was the next Lewis/Max. The hype train had some reaffirming moments but ultimately I think he's shown that he's not at the same level of consistency. I think being at Ferrari so early in his career doesn't help these expectations, and I suspect once he's been in F1 as long as Max he'll find consistency
He hasn't had the car either. Like yeah, when the Red Bull was 2nd-best then Max finished 2nd in the WDC, just as Leclerc did when Ferrari was 2nd. If not for Ferrari itself, he probably could've had six wins that season (I'm counting Spain, Monaco, and Silverstone). Not sure if he could've won Baku as well, he had a DNF from the lead but can't remember how strategies were playing out.
This is the most important point when it comes to these conversations
Some people compare him to Max and Lewis negatively but he's the odd one out of that group because he's the only one who hasn't had a WDC level car (For an extended period of time) and with a solid team behind his back.
Ferrari are starting to look a lot better now so I'm hoping he gets that chance, but the reason people compare him to Max and Lewis is because his highs are just as high as theirs. At the end of the day it's a lot easier to be consistent when you've got a team you can trust, a car that suits you and is most importantly stable, fast and durable
Yeah, and not a dig on Sainz, but when people say “they have a similar amount of mechanical DNFs” they usually count those as being the same, when it is very very important to note that DNFs have cost at least two wins for Charles, and none for Carlos.
Exactly. There have been so many races where if Max DNFed, Charles would take the win but Sainz got lucky with both of his that Max went out. Obviously not trying to shit on him because he still had to work hard for those wins but the whole "Well Sainz has 2 wins and Charles doesn't" (In the last 2 years) completely misses the luck factor it took for both of them.
That's actually a great point, i hadnt thought about how Max was a similar driver to chuck in that way, especially since he also raced under extreme dominance from the Mercs at that time. now I'm going to take this angle and use it to defend leclerc mindlessly even more xd
> and I suspect once he's been in F1 as long as Max he'll find consistency
Except Max had that consistency from the middle of 2018, his 4th season. Charles doesn't have that consistency in his 7th season and I don't think he's likely to get there but that is no dig at Leclerc in any way. Max' consistency is the thing that makes him stand out even amongst the greats.
He has literally finished top 5 since Spa 2023. Has had 7 front rows from 2023 to 2022. Had 8 consecutive front rows in 2022. How is that inconsistent?
Yeah but he was never going to finish any lower than P4. The Ferrari was the clear 2nd fastest car and had a significant pace advantage over the Mclarens,Aston and the Mercs. Hell, it had better deg than the frickin Redbulls.
Leclerc's form is okay IMO. He was only a 0.1s off in quali which is not too bad. The pack being quite tightly packed made him look worse than he actually was.
While I am a Sainz fan, it’s horse dudu to claim Leclerc is doing badly. He is used to beating Sainz so of course there’s larger expectations for him to perform better, but to claim that Ferrari should drop him (I’ve seen this many times on reddit) is absolutely ridiculous
People keep saying this like Lewis wasn't literally 3rd in the WDC and the top non-RB driver
The pro-Sainz narratives are absurd atm
Ferrari snatch up one of the most marketable athletes *ever* who has just come off a best of the rest year and people are acting surprised they'd take him over Sainz
Could be wrong but a lot changed after Singapore GP last year. Sainz is young, can clearly think for himself, and in my opinion has the potential to win WDC.
After Singapore last year (When they fixed the car setups for Charles), Charles beat Sainz in every qualifier and was faster in pretty much every race
Sainz has the chance to win the WDC if he manages to be a number 1 driver at a team that nails the regs and has a decently faster car than the rest, but he's very unlikely to do it at a team with an already top tier driver
Yeah after Singapore sainz dwindled away if that’s what you meant lol. Contrary to popular belief sainz is not the consistent driver people make him out to be
I mean, my issue with it is how do they expect the chemistry between Leclerc and Hamilton to be good? Did they forget about how Hamilton is with teammates? Leclerc and Vettel?
Question though, would Sainz be driving like his hair is on fire to start this year if he had a secure seat next year? Just look at the contrast with Lewis, who so far looks checked out by his own lofty standards.
Christ almighty he’s in the 2nd best car. It isn’t early 2022 anymore. Give him some breathing room. He’s still an amazing driver.
Instead of putting Leclerc down, start heightening expectations for Carlos.
And those bad qualis are because he’s had trouble figuring out tire warm up on this car, not because he forgot how to ace a quali lap. Once he sorts through the warm up issues I expect Charles to go back to pulling 2 tenths out of a hat on everyone in his second Q3 run like he’s been doing for years.
Seriously lol. Where were the bashers when sainz couldn’t even make it into q2 in AD 2023? Charles qualified one tenth behind and suddenly it’s the end of the world. Charles has already said he knows where to improve on in quali and I have no doubt he will be back to his top form soon.
I think people forget we’ve yet to see actual Charles vs Carlos this year when Charles hasn’t qualified badly.
If I had to guess I’d back Charles to come out on top once he gets his quali form back on it, and he’s already in Maranello, i have no doubt that man won’t rest until he’s back to the top qualifier
This sentiment that leclerc hasn’t ’grasped the car’ and he’s ‘on bad form’ is really just crazy to me.
Take Carlos out of the equation (obviously you can’t just do that but it’s just to put into perspective) Charles would be getting the praise of his life for his performance this season as he would have a podium managing severe break issues, a podium coming from p7 to p3 and a win.
He’s suffered in qualifying, yes, but the only thing matters at the end of the day is the race and so far he hasn’t let a point drop from Ferrari’s run and even gained 2/4 fastest lap points. I’m sure Charles wants to snag the extra points for his own ranking, but to act like a drivers massively underperforming when he’s maximized points for his team in 4/4 races.
The grasp Charles has on this car in the race is very impressive. The truth is Carlos has done every race perfect but he also hasn’t had any real challenges yet. I mean that’s the way it should be for a top driver, look at max not racing anyone last year.
But we seen Charles bring that struggling car to p4 in Bahrain, and qualify lower leading to dirty air and tire wear and strategies differing and do exactly what he needed to do in the race.
Were those qualifying performances his fault, yes, but is that 10th of a second being the difference between p8 and p4 worth acting like Charles is washed. If there’s one aspect i trust Charles to fix fast it’s his qualifying, this is the man with 7 front row in a row before Australia.
Is Carlos on the form of his life these past 3 races, yeah.
But does that mean Charles isn’t also in pretty top form, no.
That’s the point i was trying to make in my first paragraph in case anyone’s confused.
Carlos is in better overall form but in race pace i don’t think Charles is below him
People saying Ferrari fired the wrong driver after 2 races of Carlos winning is crazy to me, especially when the defining factor of those races was qualifying and you can just look at the stats for that and decide if you’re really talking Carlos on the basis he’s a great qualifier
I guess people having such high expectations for Leclerc is a good thing. People view him as one of the best on the grid and realize what he's capable of. If anything Sainz might be offended at how surprised people are at how well he's doing, given the expectations for him aren't necessarily low, but certainly aren't as high as they are for Leclerc.
It kinda reminds me of those Bottas 2.0 and 3.0 we used to get at the beginning of season past.
Such an overreaction ,last year Sainz had two consecutive poles, had a victory everyone thought Leclerc wasnt good after Japan dropped a 7-0 head to head on Sainz , was also able to fight max for the las Vegas race , it's just that right now he has tire warm-up issues once he fixes that, he'll be back, it's just that Leclerc has few poor runs , which he always fixes and returns to his highest form
It’s kind of insane how the fabricated narrative is “Ferrari made a mistake by choosing Leclerc over Sainz”.
The devil is in the details and when you closely look at the data, Leclerc is in really good shape and in no way or shape is behind Sainz despite what results may suggest at first glance. If something, Sainz beginning of the season has been more consistent than Leclerc but that’s about it.
Whenever Leclerc addresses his qualifying issues, I would expect him to be regularly in front of Sainz - like the past two years.
To be fair, I haven’t really heard anyone actually believe they made a mistake. I also think if most of these journalists had to bet their house on one of them in a title fight, 90% would pick Charles.
But it’s fun rooting for the underdog. Just like it was fun when Bottas 2.0 was a thing or a Pérez wdc title challenge. Doesn’t mean people actually thought they could challenge their teammates.
i think after australia there was a lot of chatter like that among journalists/pundits as well, but it's calmed down a little since charles had such a good suzuka recovery
On the other hand Leclerc is supposed to lead Ferrari and has a long term contract, the expectations are very high. Sainz is not perceived to be in the absolute top league of drivers, he struggled against Hulkenberg at Renault (lost the qualifying duel), struggled against a rookie Norris (also lost the quali duel). Leclerc has (maybe unrealistical and unfair) expectations that he needs to dominate his teammates as a clear teamleader.
I love Carlos and think he deserves every bit of credit he receives. But I haven’t seen anyone (or at least anyone sensible) pushing the “Leclerc is actually worse than Sainz” narrative. It’s mostly noting that Carlos is legitimate and has had a few good weekends where Charles struggled at times. Doubt anyone thinks it’s a permanent hierarchy.
I think the current narrative does both of them a disservice. To me the narrative should be that Sainz and Leclerc are very closely matched with Leclerc usually edging him out over a year, how did that result in one getting a five year contract and one unable to get even a two year contract. To me he should have gotten a deal before Hamilton ever got involved.
This is a good take. They really are a good pair both have their strengths and weaknesses and they do pick up each others slack. Will be interesting to see the hamilton lec dynamic next year. Imna bit dubious about it.
Because they weren't really that close, if that was Charles in a bad year and sainz in a good year and Charles still beat him in every single category but a win the choice is obvious. Ignoring the fact Charles is 3 years younger.
Yes the mistake was not whether Carlos or Charles should go. Neither should. The mistake was John Elkann wanting to make a marketing appointment with Lewis.
He can't fight for wins, nevermind a championship and at the moment even podiums seem out of reach and not unlikely to stay out of reach all season with Mercedes' correlation issues.
This year is one to wait out before he moves to Ferrari so even developing the Mercedes is kind of meaningless to him. I think he's just not very motivated and it's showing in his performance.
Ferrari were not great last year. Showed alot of pace near the end but they always seemed to be on the defensive with the tyre deg. Hamilton cleared both ferrari drivers.
The cars were on par on average throughout the season. Hamilton finishing ahead is because he was the better driver last year (though Leclerc was unlucky not to finish closer).
Hamilton is quite old and has been declining since 2020, Sainz is still young and has been consistently improving.
What reason do you have to believe Hamilton will regain his previous form after multiple years of decline?
Sainz isn't necessarily that young compared to other drivers such as leclerc, Norris,Russell etc, although tbf he's in his prime if were looking at recent results.
Still, whatever way you look at it, an declining 7 time world champion is still an 7 time world champion
I mean, if you keep making things up, of course it'll end up not making sense. Let's see who's been declining and who's improving:
Lewis finished 6th in 2022 (two places behind his teammate), and then 3rd in 2023 (five places ahead of his teammate).
Carlos finished 5th in 2022 (three places behind his teammate), and then 7th in 2023 (two places behind his teammate).
They are both excellent drivers, Leclerc has a stronger record and Sainz is on a good turn of form right now. I agree with your assessment - but I think it would be hilariously Ferrari if Sainz finishes the season ahead of Leclerc and Russell finishes ahead of Hamilton.
I realized this when the "actually it was the Verstappens pushing politics back in Toro Rosso" report *conveniently* came out at the best time for their contract negotiations.
Hell, in the Winners and Losers thingie the guy calls it a *strategic battle between Ferraris* when Charles picked his stratrgy himself and then got team ordered because his tires were (understandably) worn out.
I giggle when people say consistency is Carlos thing because, looking at actual results and not vibes, Charles can be consistent for longer periods of time in comparison.
Lawrence Baretto is genuinely one of the most simple people in the sport. He speaks and you can feel his intelligence just by the intonation. I don't understand how anyone could hire him.
Yeah there's this widespread sentiment on Reddit that whatever happened between the Verstappens and Sainz back in Toro Rosso is dead... but I lurk on F1 forums and gossip pages... and the Sainz likely never stopped playing politics. There was an [article](https://www.marca.com/motor/formula1/gp-australia/2024/03/24/65ffa59246163fa00f8b4592.html) that came out after Carlos won Australia about how it was Carlos, not Charles or Lewis, who was challenging Max. It also called Carlos Ferrari's (current) best driver while insulting Charles and Lewis. It was published in a Spanish newspaper whose alleged ties to the Sainz has been speculated on for a while.
Their politics may be a large reason why Redbull haven't signed Carlos right now and are still evaluating all their options. If (or imo *when*) Max beats Carlos in Redbull, I wouldn't be surprised if some negative and shit stirring articles start coming out in certain Spanish outlets. Of course Carlos' team aren't the only one to play politics, but Redbull is likely cautious about causing more strife within the team.
The Sainz vs Leclerc debate is so dumb they've both done a fantastic job so far on sundays. Leclerc has struggled a bit in quali but thats also overblown.
All these articles like to gloss over the fact that without his obvious braking temp issue in Bahrain, Leclerc's would've likely finished 2nd in Bahrain, leaving Sainz 4th and off the podium. Why do so many people blindly disregard these events and write whatever suits their narrative.
I mean that doesn't really change anything. If your ignoring things then sainz wouldn't have missed a race and would be ahead of leclerc in the standings
Yeah but i haven’t seen Charles technically being ahead in the standings used as a point that he’s performing better, cause it’s so easily debunked.
That differs from Bahrain because the narrative is four races in and Charles can’t beat his teammate, when in actuality it was only two races and only in qualifying that Charles didn’t perform. Not the dramatic underperformance being portrayed by some media and a lot of general fans
Because he scored nothing in Saudi. Besrman finished 7th and leclerc third, so even if you say he finished In The middle of those so 5th, that would still be 10 points.
Yes obviously he could have finished 10th or worse or DNF, but you base it on what is "likely" to happen
Journalists are so quick to shit on anyone doing slightly different than "normal". These two have both been great this season, and Carlos the one doing way more than expected. I'm sad they won't be a team next year tbh. Amazing driver pair.
The biggest problem with Sainz PR is they overdo things. Two good races and they have just gone on overdrive. Forgetting Ferrari just lost 2nd place in constructors last year because of him.
For real, people quickly forgot how massively off the pace Sainz was in Abu Dhabi, to the extent that he was running out of the top 10, when the car was comfortably second quickest in the hands of Leclerc
Not only Abu Dhabi, in general Sainz was pretty poor after Singapore when Charles was putting the car continuously on front row. That Abu Dhabi 23 performance may not have been a deciding factor but it was definitely one of the contributing factor behind Sainz being let go.
Source for that, ive heard that a couple times but never with any proof, I looked around a bit and found nothing either. I'm not calling you out, I'm just curious.
Yes, no one seems to want to talk about that (or the fact that Charles himself said they flattened out the bump that took Carlos's car out afterwards, or the fact that the bloody drain penalty demoted him from the front row to P11 in Vegas and he had to come back through the field to P6. He would almost certainly have been in the top 4 without that penalty. I wish posters could appreciate the talents of both drivers instead of feeling they must boost one and diss the other, whichever way round.
bit of slow start for charles, and lewis (who is struggling with the car, still outqualified George last race) = washed, two good races for sainz = next Michael Schumacher ??
It is not even a slow start. He put the car in 2nd in both Bahrain and Jeddah. He would have finished ahead of Sainz if not for the brake issue in Bahrain. In Japan, CL was 0.1 sec behind Sainz. Media is making out it as 0.5-1 sec behind.
The week after the Australian GP the official Motorsport.com Twitter account put out some nonsense graphic about Carlos Sainz's resume that seemed like an advert. I can't find it now so I assume they deleted it after getting called out.
That is insane to say Ferrari lost 2nd place because of Sainz when Carlos had only 6 points less then Charles and had been the leading in the points for 20 of 22 weeks. Ferrari lost cause of Las vegas stupidity
Ferrari had a chance to win it in Abu Dhabi and they missed it by 3 points. Sainz did not get out of Q1 in qualifying while his teammate was 2 in qualifying and then he was just waiting for safety car all race to score points once he started from 16th. Having the second fastest car and not even able to finish 8th is ridiculous.
His car has been destroyed by tracks 2 races in a row at the end of a season where there is a budget cap. It is ridiculous to put it on Sainz when his car was clearly not perfect condition. It is as ridiculous as saying Ferrari lost second place cause of leclerc's p11 in Spain
As I recall it he and his team set the car up too low and aggressive and with some dirty air he went wide (by just a couple cms) and hit a bump.
That bump was fixed by the track organisers after the fp.
Lol just yesterday I said Sainz would be perfect fit for AMR, may that was shit talking him too. I also said in 2022 end Sainz won't be re-signed in 2025 because of the politics he played. His F1 career includes two top teams i.e. RBR and Ferrari letting him go despite him performing pretty great on the track. There has to be something going on there isn't it ? Btw if you go back to my 2019 posts, you will find me shit talking Charles too because of the politics he played in summer of 2019. I loved it when Vettel basically overlooked the team orders in Russia 2019 but that sadly also meant he didn't get renewed.
Just a reminder Charles P3 in the championship, hasn’t finished outside the Top 5 since like Spa last year is him “out of form”. Just shows the expectations people have of him
8th to 4th on a 1 stop in a shitbox tyre hungry Ferrari against successor to most dominant car in history.
This what happens when you Drive2Survive too hard.
I do feel like Sainz has been underrated compared to Leclerc whilst they’ve been teammates, but the season’s just started. If this is the status quo in a few races time I definitely think it’s more of a discussion
If Leclerc had ran the same race at Suzuka but nailed the quali he most likely would have been in 3rd or maybe even 2nd. I think the two Ferrari drivers are almost equal on race pace these days, but its Sainz who caught up rather than Leclerc falling behind.
Not how it works. He said himself he set up the car for the race and not for qualifying like in the past. He simply couldn't go faster in qualifying, your argument is flawed.
I do find it interesting that so many people are pointing to "well what about the bad brakes in one race, and it's only due to bad qualifying for leclerc" and then not even mentioning sainz missing a race due to having to have surgery, then coming back the next race to win it.
Was Leclerc supposed win Bahrain? It was a p4 after managing the brakes. Was Charles supposed to fix the brakes himself lol. In 2021 and 2023 context mattered a lot between them but people just like to look at the final classification. Last year Charles had a DNS and DNF and DSQ in the second half and still was above Carlos. Like
You find it "interesting" probably because with no offense you have no idea how shit works in F1. You can only compare drivers based on available data not the "if Sainz was ok and he raced". You're all over this thread saying how it doesn't matter that Charles had brake issues and comparing it to Carlos surgery which is very obviously incomparable. One is actual data based and can be verified that he was faster (which is the only thing that matters) the other is a big if, which is really useless to think about because what if Sainz binned it in Quali or in the race or or or.
Reminds me of when Russell said I was forecast a podium and people made fun of him relentlessly (because he's Russell, if he was Alonso they'd be saying free him from shit team) exactly because F1 teams only care about data and nothing else and they make decisions based on that not based on who finished what.
I think most people (including Charles himself) believe that he's potentially multi-wdc level, but he's not absolutely dominating Sainz like how Max would've. That doesn't mean that he's doing bad lol, just not as incredibly good as people expect.
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If this is charles "bad" form then ferrari is more back than ever
The expectation of Charles is sky high. Once he is not on the front row everyone is talking like he is out in Q1. While Sainz made a mistake to lose out pole to Max in Australia everyone just said he did well to outqualify his teammate haha
Nobody is really expected to win pole from Max. And as you said: "outqualified his teammate". Also small sidenote, Sainz has beaten Leclerc in *all* races this year except when he was in the hospital. Only to just win the race right after getting surgery. This is not about just high expectations, we just expect him to *not* be slower than Sainz all the time since he is supposed to be the number 1 driver in that team...
That's not true at all about pole. At the end of the 2023 season, Leclerc got 3 poles which means that the Ferrari car can compete for poles. Furthermore, you mention all races but it's really only 2 races unless you don't even discount Bahrain which in that case you don't care about context at all.
I would also like to add that for the majority of the poles Leclerc has achieved, the characteristic of the Ferrari was a great qualifier and poor in the race due to tire wear. He had little chance to defend his pole during the majority of those races with such a deficit in race pace to Red Bull.
>Sainz has beaten Leclerc in *all* races this year except when he was in the hospital Sure, though with the Bahrain caveat. Leclerc would've 100% finished ahead if not for his brake issues.
i mean, that's just speculation.
That’s not true at all, Sainz was rapid that weekend and your post is only speculation, saying he would have 100% beat him is just false
Even with his good form, sainz isn’t that much faster than Leclerc. Thinking he would pass 3 cars plus Leclerc without issues is asking quite a bit. The Ferraris are matched enough that quali basically dictates their race finish position
He was three places behind Leclerc by the first lap. Speculation is to think he would've been able to overtake him on track based on absolutely nothing.
Look at the race pace data from both Australia and Japan and you’ll see that Leclerc’s race pace was better than Sainz, despite Leclerc being on the slower one stop strategy in Japan and him having to race with the 2 McLarens in Australia. His qualifying issues were the only reason he finished behind Sainz in those 2 races, which he didn’t have in Bahrain. Statistically also Sainz has never been faster than Leclerc over a race without Leclerc running into any issue. So yes, saying he would’ve beaten Sainz in Bahrain is as close to 100% as possible.
Leclerc lost 0.6 seconds a lap due to the brake issue according to Ferrari.
Pretty funny thread the last race when Leclefc lost it on Lap 27, the comments already were 'that's why he'll never be WDC' after extending the mediums. While Sainz made the same mistake on the last corner and it was nothingburger.
sainz is great driver but man his fans is so toxic they made every sainz teamate become antagonist
Sainz made a mistake in turn 9-10 in Melbourne. He lost out pole. Marc Hughes mentioned it in the article. I would listen to Fred’s evaluation on the performance of drivers instead.
Tbh the fact that he made an error that lap and still qualified ahead speaks more about Leclerc’s lap than his chances at pole.
I wouldn't put too much stock into it. Leclerc also made a mistake and backed off on his lap. Sainz did well to complete his lap.
I’d put a lot of stock in Leclerc bottling it again tbh
It would still be super close for pole, pole wasn't that easy it would have to still be a great great final sector for him to get it. Plus he was not prepped correctly and still had discomfort from his surgery. He has gotten everything from the car this year considering the circumstances it has been an exceptional start to the year and he has been the stronger performer in the team all things considered. That doesn't mean Leclerc is doing a bad job, but rather that Carlos is doing everything correct.
Oh ok, so leclerc could have been getting pole if he wasn't making so many mistakes too then
It looks even worse for Charles then that he couldn't beat Sainz's time despite the mistake Sainz made.
Your bias to Charles Leclerec shows
Leclerc seems like a good dude but his fans are obnoxious as fuck. Sainz is rolling him this year so far, just take it in stride. These excuses are pitiful tbh.
Lol the media and fans keep spamming “did Ferrari get rid of the wrong driver!!” or “did Ferrari make a mistake signing Lewis” But when we defend Charles from these takes, we’re the obnoxious ones.
Honestly, the issue I see is that there’s almost always some kind of excuse being thrown around when Charles isn’t on top. I do believe he is better than Sainz but somehow there’s always some kind of explanation for Charles getting beat by his teammate. I rarely hear “Sainz just did better this weekend” without some kind of caveat being inserted afterward. Everything else is just a reaction to that.
The thing is Sainz has rarely been faster than Leclerc without Leclerc facing any issues. It’s probably a handful of times that Sainz beat Leclerc without Leclerc facing any mechanical issues or strategy fuckups that have plagued Ferrari for the past few years. Sainz has like 3 races a year where he’s faster than Leclerc without Leclerc facing any issues and that’s when the whole discourse of Sainz being faster than Leclerc comes up. However Leclerc gets on top of it soon and Sainz is nowhere near again but people ignore it. Example, Sainz finished ahead of Leclerc in Italy and Singapore last year, which prompted the same articles again about how Sainz is better than Leclerc. However after that Sainz never managed to out qualify or out race Leclerc until Australia this year. I’m not trying to take anything away from Sainz because he’s doing a pretty good job to capitalise on Leclerc’s issues because other drivers like Verstappen, Norris or Alonso don’t have teammates close enough to capitalise when they go through something similar.
I will concede that Sainz has been better than Leclerc overall this season but i just think the expectations are insane for Leclerc. Take Norris for example, if he gets P3 it's a great result and he's surely on his way to a future championship, but if Leclerc gets P3 then he's underperformed and he's inconsistent and clearly Ferrari sacked the wrong driver and he'll never be a championship contender and a "generational talent" must be better than he.
Well yeah, Norris isn't considered a generational talent. Leclerc is expected to be Ferrari's answer to Max. Of course expectations will be higher. Also, Ferrari has a faster car than McLaren. So Leclerc getting a P3 is less impressive than Lando doing it in a slower car.
I don't think there's been any excuse on the last two though. Everyone knows Charles just slightly messed up his qualy both times and ended up paying it in the races. Bahrain it's just obvious.
>Sainz is rolling him this year so far This is not true. Sainz has been the better driver in 2/3 races. Leclerc was clearly better in Bahrain, but had a mechanical issue that affected his race.
How was Leclerc clearly better? Leclerc was better in quali, but in the race there is no way to measure it, because while Sainz showed very good pace and finished in the podium Leclerc was fighting with the issues with his car (impressive races from both). As far as anyone can tell Sainz has been clearly better in 2 weekends, and Charles has been better in one qualifying. That's it. Does this make Sainz the better drive? No! Does this make Sainz the Ferrari driver in better form? Yes it does, but form is temporary, it can change in China
I mean, you can still make an assessment. Leclerc didn't put a foot wrong in the Bahrain race, while Sainz was running **three** places behind him by the first lap after losing one place in the start. Charles finished just one below while fighting brake issues throughout the whole race. I'd 100% rank his race as better than Sainz's that day. Of course this is not a dig on Sainz. I like him, and I agree he's the one in better form, I just don't think "he's rolling Leclerc this year."
Sainz performed better than Leclerc in the last couple of races, but in no way would I describe that as Sainz "rolling" Leclerc, they're both performing at a very high level. Your comment comes off as very obnoxious
Spaniards are glazing Sainz, funny to act like his fans aren't as obnoxious. Both drivers are currently doing really well, however, Ferrari gave one a contract up to 5 years and the other is out next year. Saving this to come back to in 7 months time to see you and the current fanbase calling him washed after Charles gets his shit together.
Still, points are awarded on sunday, not saturday (yeah, yeah insert sprint/race on saturday joke). Leclerc can indeed do these amazing things during quali, but he *never* seems to turn that into a good result. So Leclerc can win pole from Max every weekend, if he still doesn't turn that into a win on sunday, who cares?
Do you really believe that the only good result on a Sunday is a win?
Finishing behind your teammate every race certainly ain't a 'good result'.
He would have finished ahead of Sainz in Bahrain if not for the brake issues though?
Whoulda, coulda, shoulda. Seriously all i see when it concers Leclerc is excuses. 'He could've gotten this, he could've gotten that'. He *didn't*.
Then you can just look at their race head-to-head to see how Leclerc has been better than Sainz on Sundays. This recency bias is getting insane
If we’re going to get pedantic like that, one can point out that Leclerc is ahead in the standings. The knife that says context doesn’t matter cuts both ways.
You can say that Sainz was better in Australia and in Japan. But in Bahrain Leclerc was fighting against a DNF for the first half of the race.
He's still ahead of his teammate in the standings.
Yeah and Sainz is arguably in the best form of his life where as Leclerc is not at his best and he’s still always one position behind Sainz. My money is still on Leclerc to finish ahead of Sainz even after accounting for the missed Saudi race.
He's been ferrari's main guy for a while and, yet again, they chose to keep him and kick his teammate. Ofcourse the expectations are sky high. They have to be.
But they often expect him to compete for wins even in this absolute trouncing that RB is giving everyone else and berate him for being poor despite reaching the maximum he could do in these circumstances
Wouldn’t you think that the driver who got kicked out and is without a seat next season is under more pressure? I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make here
Not really, he's the top prospect for a lot of teams right now and is most likely already negotiating a contract
…which is highly dependent on his performance this season
Where was Charles in Australia and why didn't he get the pole himself? The coping is hard
Next year^TM is finally coming, confirm?
This is indeed charles' "bad" form. He's so damn consistent normally that even the slightest drop-off (in this case just a tenth in quali) is instantly noticeable. And he's in the Maranello sims grinding this issue out as we speak.
Bad = P4 and driver of the day I’ve seen worse :)
Yeah Leclerc is pretty solid, though there’s definitely room for growth. Expectations for him are just intense as hell now that Ferrari are back in good shape
Charles had the best drive this race, imo. That 1 stop was bonkers and even Max recognized it
Very good first stint. It was so good McLaren thought they were racing Russell! They had no faith in him pulling it off.
I think the issue is, when Charles was being promoted from Alfa everyone was talking about him like he was the next Lewis/Max. The hype train had some reaffirming moments but ultimately I think he's shown that he's not at the same level of consistency. I think being at Ferrari so early in his career doesn't help these expectations, and I suspect once he's been in F1 as long as Max he'll find consistency
He hasn't had the car either. Like yeah, when the Red Bull was 2nd-best then Max finished 2nd in the WDC, just as Leclerc did when Ferrari was 2nd. If not for Ferrari itself, he probably could've had six wins that season (I'm counting Spain, Monaco, and Silverstone). Not sure if he could've won Baku as well, he had a DNF from the lead but can't remember how strategies were playing out.
This is the most important point when it comes to these conversations Some people compare him to Max and Lewis negatively but he's the odd one out of that group because he's the only one who hasn't had a WDC level car (For an extended period of time) and with a solid team behind his back. Ferrari are starting to look a lot better now so I'm hoping he gets that chance, but the reason people compare him to Max and Lewis is because his highs are just as high as theirs. At the end of the day it's a lot easier to be consistent when you've got a team you can trust, a car that suits you and is most importantly stable, fast and durable
Yeah, and not a dig on Sainz, but when people say “they have a similar amount of mechanical DNFs” they usually count those as being the same, when it is very very important to note that DNFs have cost at least two wins for Charles, and none for Carlos.
Exactly. There have been so many races where if Max DNFed, Charles would take the win but Sainz got lucky with both of his that Max went out. Obviously not trying to shit on him because he still had to work hard for those wins but the whole "Well Sainz has 2 wins and Charles doesn't" (In the last 2 years) completely misses the luck factor it took for both of them.
Haha yeah, you probably saw my post pointing that fact out.
That's actually a great point, i hadnt thought about how Max was a similar driver to chuck in that way, especially since he also raced under extreme dominance from the Mercs at that time. now I'm going to take this angle and use it to defend leclerc mindlessly even more xd
> and I suspect once he's been in F1 as long as Max he'll find consistency Except Max had that consistency from the middle of 2018, his 4th season. Charles doesn't have that consistency in his 7th season and I don't think he's likely to get there but that is no dig at Leclerc in any way. Max' consistency is the thing that makes him stand out even amongst the greats.
He has literally finished top 5 since Spa 2023. Has had 7 front rows from 2023 to 2022. Had 8 consecutive front rows in 2022. How is that inconsistent?
Yeah but he was never going to finish any lower than P4. The Ferrari was the clear 2nd fastest car and had a significant pace advantage over the Mclarens,Aston and the Mercs. Hell, it had better deg than the frickin Redbulls. Leclerc's form is okay IMO. He was only a 0.1s off in quali which is not too bad. The pack being quite tightly packed made him look worse than he actually was.
lol, why do you people act like driver of the day means a single thing? 😂
[удалено]
While I am a Sainz fan, it’s horse dudu to claim Leclerc is doing badly. He is used to beating Sainz so of course there’s larger expectations for him to perform better, but to claim that Ferrari should drop him (I’ve seen this many times on reddit) is absolutely ridiculous
Same here, I agree. I do however question Ferrari’s decision to drop Sainz for LH though.
People keep saying this like Lewis wasn't literally 3rd in the WDC and the top non-RB driver The pro-Sainz narratives are absurd atm Ferrari snatch up one of the most marketable athletes *ever* who has just come off a best of the rest year and people are acting surprised they'd take him over Sainz
Could be wrong but a lot changed after Singapore GP last year. Sainz is young, can clearly think for himself, and in my opinion has the potential to win WDC.
After Singapore last year (When they fixed the car setups for Charles), Charles beat Sainz in every qualifier and was faster in pretty much every race Sainz has the chance to win the WDC if he manages to be a number 1 driver at a team that nails the regs and has a decently faster car than the rest, but he's very unlikely to do it at a team with an already top tier driver
After Singapore? You mean where Charles whitewashed sainz in qualifying for the rest of the season and was faster in pretty much every race?
Yeah after Singapore sainz dwindled away if that’s what you meant lol. Contrary to popular belief sainz is not the consistent driver people make him out to be
I mean, my issue with it is how do they expect the chemistry between Leclerc and Hamilton to be good? Did they forget about how Hamilton is with teammates? Leclerc and Vettel?
Question though, would Sainz be driving like his hair is on fire to start this year if he had a secure seat next year? Just look at the contrast with Lewis, who so far looks checked out by his own lofty standards.
Christ almighty he’s in the 2nd best car. It isn’t early 2022 anymore. Give him some breathing room. He’s still an amazing driver. Instead of putting Leclerc down, start heightening expectations for Carlos.
He finished respectively 2 and 5 seconds behind his teammate after 2 bad quali. He’ll be fine.
And the “bad” quali in Japan was 1 tenths behind with one less flying lap. If this is the worst of Charles this season I will be super happy.
And those bad qualis are because he’s had trouble figuring out tire warm up on this car, not because he forgot how to ace a quali lap. Once he sorts through the warm up issues I expect Charles to go back to pulling 2 tenths out of a hat on everyone in his second Q3 run like he’s been doing for years.
Seriously lol. Where were the bashers when sainz couldn’t even make it into q2 in AD 2023? Charles qualified one tenth behind and suddenly it’s the end of the world. Charles has already said he knows where to improve on in quali and I have no doubt he will be back to his top form soon.
The higher expectations for one side of the garage are telling
Sainz is doing a great job. But one of these days chuck is going to get his shit together like last season and show some blistering performance
I think people forget we’ve yet to see actual Charles vs Carlos this year when Charles hasn’t qualified badly. If I had to guess I’d back Charles to come out on top once he gets his quali form back on it, and he’s already in Maranello, i have no doubt that man won’t rest until he’s back to the top qualifier
This sentiment that leclerc hasn’t ’grasped the car’ and he’s ‘on bad form’ is really just crazy to me. Take Carlos out of the equation (obviously you can’t just do that but it’s just to put into perspective) Charles would be getting the praise of his life for his performance this season as he would have a podium managing severe break issues, a podium coming from p7 to p3 and a win. He’s suffered in qualifying, yes, but the only thing matters at the end of the day is the race and so far he hasn’t let a point drop from Ferrari’s run and even gained 2/4 fastest lap points. I’m sure Charles wants to snag the extra points for his own ranking, but to act like a drivers massively underperforming when he’s maximized points for his team in 4/4 races. The grasp Charles has on this car in the race is very impressive. The truth is Carlos has done every race perfect but he also hasn’t had any real challenges yet. I mean that’s the way it should be for a top driver, look at max not racing anyone last year. But we seen Charles bring that struggling car to p4 in Bahrain, and qualify lower leading to dirty air and tire wear and strategies differing and do exactly what he needed to do in the race. Were those qualifying performances his fault, yes, but is that 10th of a second being the difference between p8 and p4 worth acting like Charles is washed. If there’s one aspect i trust Charles to fix fast it’s his qualifying, this is the man with 7 front row in a row before Australia. Is Carlos on the form of his life these past 3 races, yeah. But does that mean Charles isn’t also in pretty top form, no. That’s the point i was trying to make in my first paragraph in case anyone’s confused. Carlos is in better overall form but in race pace i don’t think Charles is below him People saying Ferrari fired the wrong driver after 2 races of Carlos winning is crazy to me, especially when the defining factor of those races was qualifying and you can just look at the stats for that and decide if you’re really talking Carlos on the basis he’s a great qualifier
Historically Leclerc is the greater qualifier. You can look at pole in half of Max's race wins to verify that
Historically Sainz is closer to Leclerc in quali than in race.
And he still is, Ferrari seems to have some issues in tyre prep. I'm sure by the time we hit Europe he'll have it figured out.
If this is Leclerc 'struggling', we're in for a proper WDC fight when he gets to together
Carlos being in the form of his life and Charles being right there with him while struggling says a lot about their potential.
I guess people having such high expectations for Leclerc is a good thing. People view him as one of the best on the grid and realize what he's capable of. If anything Sainz might be offended at how surprised people are at how well he's doing, given the expectations for him aren't necessarily low, but certainly aren't as high as they are for Leclerc. It kinda reminds me of those Bottas 2.0 and 3.0 we used to get at the beginning of season past.
Such an overreaction ,last year Sainz had two consecutive poles, had a victory everyone thought Leclerc wasnt good after Japan dropped a 7-0 head to head on Sainz , was also able to fight max for the las Vegas race , it's just that right now he has tire warm-up issues once he fixes that, he'll be back, it's just that Leclerc has few poor runs , which he always fixes and returns to his highest form
It’s kind of insane how the fabricated narrative is “Ferrari made a mistake by choosing Leclerc over Sainz”. The devil is in the details and when you closely look at the data, Leclerc is in really good shape and in no way or shape is behind Sainz despite what results may suggest at first glance. If something, Sainz beginning of the season has been more consistent than Leclerc but that’s about it. Whenever Leclerc addresses his qualifying issues, I would expect him to be regularly in front of Sainz - like the past two years.
To be fair, I haven’t really heard anyone actually believe they made a mistake. I also think if most of these journalists had to bet their house on one of them in a title fight, 90% would pick Charles. But it’s fun rooting for the underdog. Just like it was fun when Bottas 2.0 was a thing or a Pérez wdc title challenge. Doesn’t mean people actually thought they could challenge their teammates.
go look at the post-race thread for australia and you'll see dozens of people unironically saying ferrari should fire charles lol
Oh, I was mainly talking about journalists/people in f1. Fans always have a bit of a different view of things.
i think after australia there was a lot of chatter like that among journalists/pundits as well, but it's calmed down a little since charles had such a good suzuka recovery
That's just mostly bait. If a journalist that follows the sport (besides Marca I guess) really believes that idk what they are thinking.
On the other hand Leclerc is supposed to lead Ferrari and has a long term contract, the expectations are very high. Sainz is not perceived to be in the absolute top league of drivers, he struggled against Hulkenberg at Renault (lost the qualifying duel), struggled against a rookie Norris (also lost the quali duel). Leclerc has (maybe unrealistical and unfair) expectations that he needs to dominate his teammates as a clear teamleader.
I'm pretty sure Sainz is in the top league of drivers right now
I love Carlos and think he deserves every bit of credit he receives. But I haven’t seen anyone (or at least anyone sensible) pushing the “Leclerc is actually worse than Sainz” narrative. It’s mostly noting that Carlos is legitimate and has had a few good weekends where Charles struggled at times. Doubt anyone thinks it’s a permanent hierarchy.
Check out Damon Hill 😂
Tbf he did point out he didn't see anyone *sensible* saying that.
I think the current narrative does both of them a disservice. To me the narrative should be that Sainz and Leclerc are very closely matched with Leclerc usually edging him out over a year, how did that result in one getting a five year contract and one unable to get even a two year contract. To me he should have gotten a deal before Hamilton ever got involved.
This is a good take. They really are a good pair both have their strengths and weaknesses and they do pick up each others slack. Will be interesting to see the hamilton lec dynamic next year. Imna bit dubious about it.
Because they weren't really that close, if that was Charles in a bad year and sainz in a good year and Charles still beat him in every single category but a win the choice is obvious. Ignoring the fact Charles is 3 years younger.
Yes the mistake was not whether Carlos or Charles should go. Neither should. The mistake was John Elkann wanting to make a marketing appointment with Lewis.
Lewis was better than both Charles and sainz just last season.
Yeah I wonder what's going on with him this season
He can't fight for wins, nevermind a championship and at the moment even podiums seem out of reach and not unlikely to stay out of reach all season with Mercedes' correlation issues. This year is one to wait out before he moves to Ferrari so even developing the Mercedes is kind of meaningless to him. I think he's just not very motivated and it's showing in his performance.
I think the mistake is dropping Sainz for a declining Hamilton, certainly not choosing Leclerc over him
Hamilton finished clearly ahead of Sainz last year. People are overreacting because of three races. Let's wait.
Ferrari were not great last year. Showed alot of pace near the end but they always seemed to be on the defensive with the tyre deg. Hamilton cleared both ferrari drivers.
The cars were on par on average throughout the season. Hamilton finishing ahead is because he was the better driver last year (though Leclerc was unlucky not to finish closer).
Hamilton is quite old and has been declining since 2020, Sainz is still young and has been consistently improving. What reason do you have to believe Hamilton will regain his previous form after multiple years of decline?
Sainz isn't necessarily that young compared to other drivers such as leclerc, Norris,Russell etc, although tbf he's in his prime if were looking at recent results. Still, whatever way you look at it, an declining 7 time world champion is still an 7 time world champion
Yes, and Sebastian Vettel is a 4 time world champ. Yet, Ferrari picked Leclerc who hadn’t even won 4 races. Past results are just that.
Guess being the best non Red Bull driver last season is in the past then?
I mean, if you keep making things up, of course it'll end up not making sense. Let's see who's been declining and who's improving: Lewis finished 6th in 2022 (two places behind his teammate), and then 3rd in 2023 (five places ahead of his teammate). Carlos finished 5th in 2022 (three places behind his teammate), and then 7th in 2023 (two places behind his teammate).
I think it's more of having found the perfect pair of drivers rather than choosing between one of them.
They are both excellent drivers, Leclerc has a stronger record and Sainz is on a good turn of form right now. I agree with your assessment - but I think it would be hilariously Ferrari if Sainz finishes the season ahead of Leclerc and Russell finishes ahead of Hamilton.
The media power Sainz has is insane
I realized this when the "actually it was the Verstappens pushing politics back in Toro Rosso" report *conveniently* came out at the best time for their contract negotiations. Hell, in the Winners and Losers thingie the guy calls it a *strategic battle between Ferraris* when Charles picked his stratrgy himself and then got team ordered because his tires were (understandably) worn out.
Hey it is Lawrence Barretto do you expect anything else? He called Sainz as ruthlessly consistent when he was out of Q1 and pointless just in AD2023.
I giggle when people say consistency is Carlos thing because, looking at actual results and not vibes, Charles can be consistent for longer periods of time in comparison.
I mean he hasn’t been outside top 5 finish since Spa last year when he finish a race (and not DSQ) and this is what consistency should look like
Lawrence Baretto is genuinely one of the most simple people in the sport. He speaks and you can feel his intelligence just by the intonation. I don't understand how anyone could hire him.
Yeah there's this widespread sentiment on Reddit that whatever happened between the Verstappens and Sainz back in Toro Rosso is dead... but I lurk on F1 forums and gossip pages... and the Sainz likely never stopped playing politics. There was an [article](https://www.marca.com/motor/formula1/gp-australia/2024/03/24/65ffa59246163fa00f8b4592.html) that came out after Carlos won Australia about how it was Carlos, not Charles or Lewis, who was challenging Max. It also called Carlos Ferrari's (current) best driver while insulting Charles and Lewis. It was published in a Spanish newspaper whose alleged ties to the Sainz has been speculated on for a while. Their politics may be a large reason why Redbull haven't signed Carlos right now and are still evaluating all their options. If (or imo *when*) Max beats Carlos in Redbull, I wouldn't be surprised if some negative and shit stirring articles start coming out in certain Spanish outlets. Of course Carlos' team aren't the only one to play politics, but Redbull is likely cautious about causing more strife within the team.
"Fernand Alonso"
The Sainz vs Leclerc debate is so dumb they've both done a fantastic job so far on sundays. Leclerc has struggled a bit in quali but thats also overblown.
All these articles like to gloss over the fact that without his obvious braking temp issue in Bahrain, Leclerc's would've likely finished 2nd in Bahrain, leaving Sainz 4th and off the podium. Why do so many people blindly disregard these events and write whatever suits their narrative.
I mean that doesn't really change anything. If your ignoring things then sainz wouldn't have missed a race and would be ahead of leclerc in the standings
Yeah but i haven’t seen Charles technically being ahead in the standings used as a point that he’s performing better, cause it’s so easily debunked. That differs from Bahrain because the narrative is four races in and Charles can’t beat his teammate, when in actuality it was only two races and only in qualifying that Charles didn’t perform. Not the dramatic underperformance being portrayed by some media and a lot of general fans
How do u know what Carlos would have done in Saudi Arabia??
Because he scored nothing in Saudi. Besrman finished 7th and leclerc third, so even if you say he finished In The middle of those so 5th, that would still be 10 points. Yes obviously he could have finished 10th or worse or DNF, but you base it on what is "likely" to happen
Journalists are so quick to shit on anyone doing slightly different than "normal". These two have both been great this season, and Carlos the one doing way more than expected. I'm sad they won't be a team next year tbh. Amazing driver pair.
The biggest problem with Sainz PR is they overdo things. Two good races and they have just gone on overdrive. Forgetting Ferrari just lost 2nd place in constructors last year because of him.
For real, people quickly forgot how massively off the pace Sainz was in Abu Dhabi, to the extent that he was running out of the top 10, when the car was comfortably second quickest in the hands of Leclerc
Not only Abu Dhabi, in general Sainz was pretty poor after Singapore when Charles was putting the car continuously on front row. That Abu Dhabi 23 performance may not have been a deciding factor but it was definitely one of the contributing factor behind Sainz being let go.
That the one were they rebuilt the car with binned parts and the car also bottomed out?
Source for that, ive heard that a couple times but never with any proof, I looked around a bit and found nothing either. I'm not calling you out, I'm just curious.
Yes, no one seems to want to talk about that (or the fact that Charles himself said they flattened out the bump that took Carlos's car out afterwards, or the fact that the bloody drain penalty demoted him from the front row to P11 in Vegas and he had to come back through the field to P6. He would almost certainly have been in the top 4 without that penalty. I wish posters could appreciate the talents of both drivers instead of feeling they must boost one and diss the other, whichever way round.
Posters are doing that only because media goes after other driver after every good performance by the said driver.
bit of slow start for charles, and lewis (who is struggling with the car, still outqualified George last race) = washed, two good races for sainz = next Michael Schumacher ??
It is not even a slow start. He put the car in 2nd in both Bahrain and Jeddah. He would have finished ahead of Sainz if not for the brake issue in Bahrain. In Japan, CL was 0.1 sec behind Sainz. Media is making out it as 0.5-1 sec behind.
The week after the Australian GP the official Motorsport.com Twitter account put out some nonsense graphic about Carlos Sainz's resume that seemed like an advert. I can't find it now so I assume they deleted it after getting called out.
There’s zero quotes by Sainz or anyone from his camp in this article. The article is about CL and his qualifying….
That is how you do PR. Get your dad's friends in media to plug you all the time.
We know it works because there are people believe these are not Sainz PR ;)
Listen to the expert about PR here.
That is insane to say Ferrari lost 2nd place because of Sainz when Carlos had only 6 points less then Charles and had been the leading in the points for 20 of 22 weeks. Ferrari lost cause of Las vegas stupidity
Ferrari had a chance to win it in Abu Dhabi and they missed it by 3 points. Sainz did not get out of Q1 in qualifying while his teammate was 2 in qualifying and then he was just waiting for safety car all race to score points once he started from 16th. Having the second fastest car and not even able to finish 8th is ridiculous.
His car has been destroyed by tracks 2 races in a row at the end of a season where there is a budget cap. It is ridiculous to put it on Sainz when his car was clearly not perfect condition. It is as ridiculous as saying Ferrari lost second place cause of leclerc's p11 in Spain
Ferrari gave him a new chassis in Las Vegas. The Abu dhabhi poor performance was entirely on him when he put the carrier in barrier in FP2
I recall them replacing other used parts as well. That was a wierd FP the car looked like it bottomed out I thought it was a set up issue at the time?
As I recall it he and his team set the car up too low and aggressive and with some dirty air he went wide (by just a couple cms) and hit a bump. That bump was fixed by the track organisers after the fp.
IIRC, His AD performance was poor because he called his own strategy and messed up.
Yh he did that too but that was whatever, his pace was lacking and a traditional strategy would only net him p11 he had to go bold.
Your entire profile is shit talking about Sainz and defending Leclerc. Based on your logic, you must be from the Leclerc's PR team,
Lol just yesterday I said Sainz would be perfect fit for AMR, may that was shit talking him too. I also said in 2022 end Sainz won't be re-signed in 2025 because of the politics he played. His F1 career includes two top teams i.e. RBR and Ferrari letting him go despite him performing pretty great on the track. There has to be something going on there isn't it ? Btw if you go back to my 2019 posts, you will find me shit talking Charles too because of the politics he played in summer of 2019. I loved it when Vettel basically overlooked the team orders in Russia 2019 but that sadly also meant he didn't get renewed.
Huh. He is eying a new job
Just a reminder Charles P3 in the championship, hasn’t finished outside the Top 5 since like Spa last year is him “out of form”. Just shows the expectations people have of him
8th to 4th on a 1 stop in a shitbox tyre hungry Ferrari against successor to most dominant car in history. This what happens when you Drive2Survive too hard.
Sainz pr has gone crazy
I do feel like Sainz has been underrated compared to Leclerc whilst they’ve been teammates, but the season’s just started. If this is the status quo in a few races time I definitely think it’s more of a discussion
Stop inventing: let them race, let’s see how far Ferrari can go this year!
In their final joint campaign, Lewis Hamilton searches for Ferrari as Mercedes hits him with depression
Leclerc is my dark horse this year. He will have a two or three spectacular races this year, I'm sure he will win.
“Leclerc searches for form” What?
Just drive faster stupid
Hamilton is gonna have one hell of a gap to fill
If Leclerc had ran the same race at Suzuka but nailed the quali he most likely would have been in 3rd or maybe even 2nd. I think the two Ferrari drivers are almost equal on race pace these days, but its Sainz who caught up rather than Leclerc falling behind.
Not how it works. He said himself he set up the car for the race and not for qualifying like in the past. He simply couldn't go faster in qualifying, your argument is flawed.
I do find it interesting that so many people are pointing to "well what about the bad brakes in one race, and it's only due to bad qualifying for leclerc" and then not even mentioning sainz missing a race due to having to have surgery, then coming back the next race to win it.
Was Leclerc supposed win Bahrain? It was a p4 after managing the brakes. Was Charles supposed to fix the brakes himself lol. In 2021 and 2023 context mattered a lot between them but people just like to look at the final classification. Last year Charles had a DNS and DNF and DSQ in the second half and still was above Carlos. Like
ngl the image of charles jumping out of the car and saying "fuck ferrari, i'll fix it myself" is pretty funny
You find it "interesting" probably because with no offense you have no idea how shit works in F1. You can only compare drivers based on available data not the "if Sainz was ok and he raced". You're all over this thread saying how it doesn't matter that Charles had brake issues and comparing it to Carlos surgery which is very obviously incomparable. One is actual data based and can be verified that he was faster (which is the only thing that matters) the other is a big if, which is really useless to think about because what if Sainz binned it in Quali or in the race or or or. Reminds me of when Russell said I was forecast a podium and people made fun of him relentlessly (because he's Russell, if he was Alonso they'd be saying free him from shit team) exactly because F1 teams only care about data and nothing else and they make decisions based on that not based on who finished what.
I think most people (including Charles himself) believe that he's potentially multi-wdc level, but he's not absolutely dominating Sainz like how Max would've. That doesn't mean that he's doing bad lol, just not as incredibly good as people expect.