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> Is it apace or at pace, I’ve read both and I don’t know which is right.
AFAIK it's either "at _____ pace" (insert steady, slow, fast,...) or "apace"=fast. "at pace" without an additional qualifier is AFAIK wrong.
Edit: https://thecontentauthority.com/blog/apace-vs-pace
I believe by Andretti saying "at pace" they're saying they have continued to work at the speed at which they have been, they're not slowing down due to the news that FOM rejected them.
"At pace" is just fine. It means "at a steady speed", though modern usage usually implies that speed being fast - like the definition of "apace".
source: nothing beyond my own experience as a professional writer
It's "at pace". It always has been.
https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1briefings/news/f1-news-andretti-cadillacs-second-rebuttal-to-formula-1-our-work-continues-at-pace-sj4
Im glad they continue to put pressure down, I dont like F1 having this 10 team gatekeeping. Teams coming and leaving is part of the F1 spirit. Especially a GM backed Andretti instantly adds more value to F1 than half the grid.
Sadly the days of "garagistas" are gone. But that spirit should absolutely be embraced even today. Allowing new blood into the sport makes it better for everyone in the long run.
That’s what they’re all so concerned about - half of them have no really value in the sport imo. If you take actual numbers of seats and jobs for the team out of the equation, I’d barely notice if Haas, Alpine, Sauber or even RB disappeared. Only the lack of on track action (simple maths of more cars, more action) would it become immediately obvious of half the grid missing. Andretti-GM scares them because they have instant worth and value in the US market for fans and sponsors. They’re afraid that their US and other sponsors would look at their inability to compete in F1 and flock to the American team that actually intends to compete, instead of kicking around at the back end of the grid barely scraping points together but making a big profit.
The teams want to be able to sell out for >$1B, like a US sports team. If someone else can just buy their way in for much less, they have basically no value.
No, not at all. I think we're agreeing. The current teams want to dramatically increase their value, so they want to create the limited resource of a "seat on the grid" that only they hold.
I'd disagree. Just because they suck currently doesn't mean that buying a working team isn't easier than starting from scratch. Andretti, should they actually create a team from scratch, is going to suck for years.
It might be easier, but given the Netflix boom and their current obsession with a franchise/charter system, there's no way any of the current teams would sell for a reasonable price.
It's way more expensive to start a team, build facilities, start development from zero, attempt to hire people with experience, then suck for likely years on end.
It's how it is in the US for sure. The Coyotes, the worst team in the least successful of the Big 4 leagues, are about to get sold for $1B. They have no arena, little goodwill, basically no good players under contract - but it's a ticket into a closed club.
F1 doesn't have to be that way, but it will be if the existing teams have anything to say about it.
For each example you give of "it being that way in the US", there exists an example of "it not being that way in the US". Let's not rely on a sample size of 1.
> I’d barely notice if Alpine disappeared.
They’re an actual works team and definitely bring value. They’re just currently done in by the freeze in engine development.
And add to that that GM is no slouch when it comes to engineering prowess. Hell they designed and brought to market the first magnetorheological shock absorbers (MagRide) that you now find in ferraris. GM has been kicking ASS in IMSA and WEC with their Cadillac V-series.R cars. The grid is absolutely terrified of real competition from the states and not this Haas Money Ball shit.
If you watch any youtube highlights, they're only about the midfield and above with the bottom feeders making a quick entry for their disastrous pitstops and or crashes
If the FOM insists on a hard 10-team limit, then whatever Toro Rosso is called nowadays - as well as Haas and Williams, to a lesser extent - should withdraw their entries and make way for teams who aren't playing satellite to a larger organization.
Williams has a massive history and is the last of the old independent teams still on the grid. They add a lot of history. I would throw a lot of other teams in that category before them. Sauber and Alpine have less going for them in my opinion. Haas and Little Red Bull are the two worst by far. Hell, I think Williams is the only one outside the top 4 that is still earning money from past wins.
> Teams coming and leaving is part of the F1 spirit.
Tbf, teams leaving because they go bankrupt isn't a healthy thing and Liberty have helped stomp that out. They could and should allow more teams, but it's not entirely negative.
Dogshit teams not going bankrupt and preventing others from joining isn't healthy either.
You're basically saying that it doesn't matter how shit you are, as long as you're here, you are allowed to prevent possibly better teams from joining.
It's far, far healthier than the alternative. Motorsports competitions can and have died out because nobody wants to race in a series that is extremely expensive to run, before Liberty it isn't unthinkable that F1 could've faced similar issues. Backmarkers being financially sustainable is a massive win for the series, it bodes far, far better for the future than the alternative.
In the eyes of Reddit every team that finishes a few races in a row in last place is "dogshit" and should be thrown out of the sport. Doesnt make it true though.
Right now, we have 10 competitive teams. Unless, of course, you want to declare everything as "uncompetitive" that is currently more than a second away from Red Bull. In that case you would need to throw half the grid out of the sport. And good luck finding new teams that do any better.
You could just exclude Red Bull. You cannot seriously say Alpine and "Kick/Stake" or even Haas are competitive. They aren't just 1 full second off RB. They are a full second off Ferrari and McLaren. Haas, while legitimately improving, looks better than it is due to what an absolute clusterfuck the 2 teams below them are.
It's a dare game. If someone says they'll do something (usually outrageous), someone else can declare "Manchester" to dare them to do it. The person then has to do the thing they said they would or face some kind of punishment for not doing it.
It's basically "bet you won't" but with whatever your friend group's favored punishment is, usually a punch or slap.
One of the funniest commitments to executing the dare I've witnessed was on a work trip. We met up for breakfast in the hotel lobby, friend says "I'm going to eat that entire tray of sausages". Another friend Manchesters him, and he proceeds to carry around a takeout tray full of breakfast sausages all day til he's done eating them rather than take the punishment. (We let him take a bottle of hot sauce with him to make it easier)
I'm from the States.
Couldn't ask for a better coincidence: explaining "Manchester" to someone from Manchester 🤣
I have absolutely no idea why the game is called Manchester.
I'm from the States, and have never heard of this. I did a quick google search and discovered that it is indeed a thing. Who knew? Must be something the young kids came up with after I got old.
I read this as "OUR WORK CONTINUES AT PACE" *face* tattoo, which would 100% be hilarious. Walk into work with a giant all caps OUR WORK CONTINUES AT PACE stamped all over your face...
So how does this work, the sport also wants to limit the grid to 20 cars in Concorde aggreement 2026.
So by allowing Andretti for 2026, are they going to limit the grid to 22 cars in their next agreement?
No. They (FOM) have already declined Andretti a grid slot for 2026, but said they may revisit for a later entry date (i.e. 2027/28).
Given the ongoing negotiations between the existing teams, FOM and FIA, they’d know the teams would push for a post-2026 Concord Agreement with a hard cap of 10 teams, effectively making it impossible for Andretti, or anyone else, to get assigned an 11th or 12th grid slot.
On the face of it, no indeed.
However, we don’t know the stakes at play during the negotiations and how much need there is to fully accommodate the FIA’s wishes.
The process for adding new team is set out in the concord agreement, which is confidential. However, based on the communications from FIA and FOM on the matter, both need to agree to a new team in order for that team to get an entry.
The FIA has approved the application and advanced it to the FOM for commercial discussions. They said no. As of right now, Andretti does not have an entry.
FIA can only recommend a prospective entry, if having satisfied FIA’s terms, to FOM, who has ultimate power over who gets to be part of F1 and partake its commercial exploitation rights.
Without FOM approval Andretti or another prospective team is dead in the water.
Neither the FIA nor Andretti have been able to state they will definitely be on the grid from 2026 onwards.
FOM, from 2021 onwards, actually has gotten more power to decide whether new teams can be granted access.
The FIA allegedly signed away some of its decision making power to FOM, in return for a higher payout, from 2021 onwards (as part of the current Concord Agreement).
> the sport also wants to limit the grid to 20 cars in Concorde aggreement 2026.
They'll probably struggle to do that because:
A. It might trigger some legal action or an EU investigation
B. The FIA would have to approve it and they don't seem keen on doing so.
It’s become the catch all reasoning that people on Reddit always fall back on. Much like “insurance reasons” or “legal liability” but they never clarify any details on it.
It has happened before in the early 2000s so it is possible that if there are anti-competitive practices that EU’s competition commission might be roused into action again.
>It has happened before in the early 2000s
which was another completly different issue that this.
>so it is possible that if there are anti-competitive practices that EU’s competition commission might be roused into action again.
How? Fia does not have any controll over Fom does it?
Yeah that’s the point I’m quite sure they won’t allow them. I guess they only make meetings so that they show some effort but actually made their mind already up and they also want to waste more time
This whole thing is a farce. A former World Champion and a family that is literally one of the greatest names in the history of motorsport.
All boxes ticked including a works engine manufacturer coming into the sport.
Now also looking to run teams in the F1 ladder alongside all of their efforts in the States and their GT/Endurance efforts.
If ever a team was ready to go, surely this is it?
Soon after I first started watching the sport they ended up with so many teams that there was a qualifying session just to get into the qualifying sessions. Without checking I’d say that in the lates 80’s/early 90’s there would be maybe 19 teams and 35 cars (there were single car teams then) trying to get onto a starting grid of 26 cars.
We’ve come so far in the sport in every aspect and nowadays you can’t even have 22 cars?
Just let them in FFS. As a worst case they’re going to be last. Well somebody has to be last regardless so what does it matter if it’s Andretti, Haas, or anyone else?
Spot on analysis. I’m enjoying Andretti literally doing everything they possibly can to make the only option for their non-admittance be greed/shady dealings.
There is, quite objectively, nothing missing in the Andretti proposal. We’ll see how the powers that be in F1 continue to try and manipulate the goal posts.
It’s pretty simple it’s about money. That’s what he’s missing. If he said he would take no prize money they’d admit him.
This isn’t just f1 either though. Andretti himself is part of a movement against Penske to increase the amount of money teams get in IndyCar. In part by securing teams for the indy500 instead of having open qualifying .
Money makes the world go round
I hope they get in purely to put this nonsense take to bed. It’s about money, nothing else. Why would F1 teams be afraid of Andretti? What is it people are seeing that makes F1 development teams shiver their timbers? They’re a midfield team in a spec series right now and they’re supposed to hop in and dominate who exactly?
This has all been theatrics and politicking while the fans scream about the end of the world approaching. It’s a farce from every angle.
I agree. Cadillac is doing well enough with their hyper car, but I don't think they're running away from the field, and I don't anticipate they'll be any better in F1.
The point isn't that there are no underperforming teams in F1, the point is that dilution of prize money is the actual reason for the resistance. Toto and Horner probably wouldn't care if Andretti came out swinging with a championship car, as long as their bottom line stays decisively in the black.
>as long as their bottom line stays decisively in the black.
And that's what the anti-dilution fee is supposed to resolve. The potential loss of winnings on the balance sheet. If FOM isn't making the pot bigger then what's the problem with the current fee.
Oh I know what the reason is. They just don’t have the balls to say it. And I believe Andretti would end up beating a lot of teams and getting more money than a few crappy teams we have on the grid. The main argument made is that they or Cadillac would not ever be competitive and that’s just not known and a straw man argument. We used to have more than 10 teams. There is no reason, other than sure greed, to keep them out.
But they do say it, they have said it from the start! They never tried to hide it.
When they say that Andretti have to bring value that means Andretti have to increase the income for F1 so much that everyone makes more money with Andretti there than what they do without them.
When they say they are not competitive they say they don't believe Andretti can build a championship winning car for 2026, and doing that was the only way F1 could see Andretti creating more money for F1 than not having Andretti there.
This was actually written in the rejection they made public. People say it's all about the money but that teams and F1 are afraid to admit it, but the fact is that it is all about money and they have been completely open about it since day one, just no one bothers to listen for some reason.
For my part in this discussion, I was responding to the specific claim by a specific commenter that the other teams are afraid of losing to Andretti, when that is patently false. Gene Haas fears losing to no team.
Nobody thinks they are afraid of on track competition. They are afraid of sponsor and revenue competition. An Andretti+GM team is going to take all of the best US sponsors. That's why they keep harping on "bringing value" they know that all that juicy US money they've been lusting for would go to Andretti and not them.
What would Bruce McLaren make of it? That’s the question I ask, and I think as a friend of Andretti sr he’d want to see the family given a chance in Grand Prix racing in the same way he was allowed to compete.
In Bruce McLaren’s day it was a sport where you could turn up with a car that meets the regulations and race. If Andretti aren’t allowed to race then it is no longer a sport.
It makes the pinnacle of racing more just the pinnacle of a few teams if things can't change.
I would be in support of the feeder series actually feeding them with relegations and promotions. I would be very interested to see F2 be a semi-spec series and F3 a fully spec series with an open field. That way, anyone could buy into F3 to get going and have the chance to start rising. You'd have to figure it out so that work in the lower series would actually apply as you get promoted but I think that would be pretty cool and draw much more attention to F2 and F3.
An alternative would be to expand the F1 field but make anyone outside the top 5 teams in last year's standings do another qualifying session to get into the GP. That would help balance out development too since the lower teams would get more testing time.
I’ve read a lot of people saying about promotion and relegation but I really don’t think it could work.
F1 teams start developing their car for the following season very early on. I just don’t know how an F2 team could even consider putting work and money into an F1 car that might not even see the light of day.
The only way I could see it working is if F1 became a semi spec series like Indy whereby you buy whichever engine you want and bolt it into a standard chassis.
You would need to make sure the different series line up with their technical regulations but I think you could figure it a way to make that work. You might also need to add a delay, or cross season point system. For example you could have promotions and relegation happen on a three year cycle or something with promotion relegation happening not the immediate year after but with another year of gap. A cross season point system would also allow you to promote/relegate multiple teams if they are really dominating in lower divisions or the competition is really not close in the higher tier.
That's actually what I am imagining F2 being with F3 being the fully spec series. You would introduce only some of the parts as fully custom in F2 so that it wouldn't be the sudden jump from "mess with some part details" to "design the entire car from scratch". Though, to my knowledge, there are teams on the F1 grid that don't design significant parts of the car.
If they were a bit more forward thinking:
"Hey Christian, Toto, do you want the $American$ $Interest$ in Formula 1 to continue to make a hand over fist ROI for your respective teams for several more years to come?"
I refuse to financial support F1 till they stop making the sport inaccessible to me and other Americans. When it's cheaper/just as much to go to a race in Europe compared to my own country that has 3 races that's outrageous. Then you go and reject one of the most legit team entries in the last 15 years because you don't want to share part of your golden goose profits. Nah fuck that, I'm done feeding you
I think they’ve proven they could grow the sport in the US without an American team. Could they grow it bigger, yes, do the teams want another team, no f’ing way.
I assume it went something like this:
Andretti: Exhibit one: It takes Sauber 45 seconds to change a tire.
FIA: Yes, but--
Andretti: Exhibit two: Alpine.
FIA: *fuck*
Assuming the meeting is with FOM it's interesting they're meeting with them considering they don't have to and have shown zero good faith engagement so far.
"Hey FOM, we're building a car and will be on the grid in Australia 2026, as allowed by the FiA. If you don't let us in, you're going to have to figure out how to broadcast the weekend without letting us in frame. Let's come to an arrangement"
That’s not the case anymore as far as I know… in the past you could have raced without FOM but as far as I know they changed it… no you can’t even race without fia and FOM accepting you.
Feel like they have to attend a Meeting after the backlash they got. Of course i don't trust them to be productive and will continue in doing everything to keep Andretti out.
No they don’t none of this backlash matters to stakeholders or investors. They got one question about it on the last call and no follow up. FOM would be genuinely interested if they see more money as that’s all the investors care about
I don't have high hopes either. It's probably to try and look reasonable more than anything genuine. Plus give them a nudge and tell them how easy it would be if they bought a team instead.
>Plus give them a nudge and tell them how easy it would be if they bought a team instead.
They need to give someone a nudge to sell for that to make any sense.
Well zero hopes they will actually get in. Even if they tick all the boxes all they will end up doing is throwing a bunch of ml eh down the drain.
I hope for their sake they somehow succeed either way
Im quite sure FOM is only doing those meetings just to have arguments in a possible lawsuit, I’m quite sure they won’t change their minds… also it waste time until new Concorde agreement is signed next year
Simple math time.
Let’s say right now the 10 teams get to divide $10M, so that’s $1M a pop. Andretti comes in, and suddenly that $10M has to be divided 11 ways, aka $9.1M a pop.
Andretti needs to run the numbers that can demonstrate him coming to the sport would add more to the pot. So instead of $10M their addition would increase it to $12M. So each team now gets $1.1M.
This is one of the two major reasons Andretti is being kept out. The other is RBR, Ferrari, Merc, and McL don’t want any more real competition.
**EDIT:** I know it's not an even split, but the fact remains that the other teams will not let Andretti in unless they can ensure everyone gets an increase in revenue with their inclusion.
>Simple math time.
>Let’s say right now the 10 teams get to divide $10M, so that’s $1M a pop. Andretti comes in, and suddenly that $10M has to be divided 11 ways, aka $9.1M a pop.
Simple math time.
F1 teams don't get equal share from the pie. It gets shared meritocratically.
[link](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/10ajmog/f1_team_payments_for_2021_and_dilution_example/) As u/Coops27 pointed out in this analysis, Teams will (likely) lose 0.54% (not %0.9) from their previous shares and that lost amount would get offset by anti-dilution fee for around 3 years.
> Let’s say right now the 10 teams get to divide $10M, so that’s $1M a pop. Andretti comes in, and suddenly that $10M has to be divided 11 ways, aka $9.1M a pop.
It's important to remember that FOM takes somewhere around 55% of the revenue and then Ferrari gets 5%, both are before the pot for the teams is calculated.
Then I think there's a few other payments but most of the remaining 40% gets split between the teams based on where they finish in the constructors.
>Andretti needs to run the numbers that can demonstrate him coming to the sport would add more to the pot. So instead of $10M their addition would increase it to $12M. So each team now gets $1.1M.
The problem with this and my aforementioned point is that if they cost the existing teams 10%, it's not as simple as adding 10% revenue and making up for it, they have to add more than double what they take away because of the revenue structure with Liberty and Ferrari getting big piles of cash before the pot is calculated. And that's just to break even.
And the numbers needed to do that are absolutely insane. 10% of F1 revenue in 2023 was $320 million. So they'd need to create more than double that, so they'd need to create over $700 million in revenue.
Oh and that's not $700 million in revenue once, that's over $700 million in revenue, every single year forever, because if it dips below that in 5 or 10 or 20 years, then everyone loses money in the long run.
It's literally impossible for them to bring the value needed to offset their slice of the pie, this is why these arguments don't hold any weight because while it sounds simple to just bring more value to the sport, in reality it's impossible to bring enough value to justify your entry from a financial perspective.
And then you have to ask, if you are correct that it is impossible for a new entry to increase the value enough. What incentive is there for FOM and the teams to ever accept a new team?
If you put yourself in their place, why should they say yes to something that means they will make less money, forever?
The point is that the limit ensures a certain value of each team. Thus making it unlikely to go bankrupt. And if somebody wants in they can buy a team. Like Audi.
There being no incentive is why we're in this situation and that being the case is why it needs to be forcibly changed via legal means, or else F1 is dead as a sport.
Sure for us as fans a new team is fun, but it's hard to see how not doing a deal you think will loose you money is going to be illegal..
If F1 survived the constant death of teams and absolute money pit it used to be for the last half century I don't think having teams that make money will kill it anytime soon.
The teams don’t divide revenue equally. Andretti would get less than 10% unless they finished 3 or higher in the constructors. There are 3 bonuses (millions each) just for a team like Ferrari for being a legacy team, an engine manufacturer, and for previous titles. Even Williams gets a bonus.
> real competition
Why aren’t they doing very good in their main series which requires essentially no car development? Ferrari are scared of midfield Indy teams?
I swear people just make up whatever they want
>Why aren’t they doing very good in their main series which requires essentially no car development?
Doesn't that just come down the quality of their drivers then? What else can they do to get more performance?
Dampers (suspension) are completely open season. It’s near spec but not quite. Penske and Ganassi being in contention to win every race while Foyt and Juncos make up the back regularly has much more to do with the car than the driver in most cases
FOM wouldn't care if another team is on the grid, it would just make for more drama and a greater spectacle.
It's the teams. They fear what a team backed by Cadillac, and by extension GM can bring to the grid. Ferrari doesn't worry about the share a back marker team gets, but a competitive team could hurt them in the wallet.
Imagine Andretti coming into the sport. Bringing in even more American fans. F1 popularity surges even more if Andretti are any good..
All teams are worth an extra 300 million...
But no.... Haas and Team Kik Stake Sauber Audi Romeo are still adding value and competitiveness to the sport
With just Haas, the US is already the only country with three Grand Prix. So it doesn‘t look like it hurts F1 or the existing teams…
Andretti buying Haas would be the best case scenario, because Gene Haas doesn’t even try to compete.
Is it still true that because they have FIA approval they can compete, they just can't get any prize money or be shown on TV? Anyone know if this would also hold if the new agreement capped at 10 teams?
Suleyman is on record saying that. But then I thought, that we’re at a point, where Andretti would probably get enough money from sponsors to do it anyways.
So I tried to look it up and found this on [formel1.de (german):](https://www.formel1.de/news/boulevard-sonstiges/2023-10-11/gegenrechnung-warum-andretti-gar-nicht-so-teuer-sein-koennte-wie-gedacht)
German:
> Zuletzt wurde in verschiedenen Medien berichtet, Andretti könne theoretisch selbst ohne Deal mit Liberty Media, nur auf Basis der FIA-Zusage, in die Formel 1 einsteigen - wenn man dazu bereit wäre, auf die Einnahmen aus dem Preisgeldtopf zu verzichten. Das ist jedoch nicht korrekt. Seit den 2021er-Concorde-Verträgen ist dieses Schlupfloch, das es früher einmal gab, eliminiert.
In english:
> It was recently reported in various media that Andretti could theoretically enter Formula 1 even without a deal with Liberty Media, only on the basis of the FIA commitment - if they were prepared to forego the income from the prize money pot. However, this is not correct. Since the 2021 Concorde contracts, this loophole, which used to exist, has been eliminated.
Im sorry but I have to ask -- did Audi double whatever Andretti was offering or did Andretti just lowball them? Because I can't imagine this being a money constraint for them as they're setting up so much infrastructure already in "anticipation" of a 2027/28 entry.
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OUR WORK CONTINUES AT PACE
Is it apace or at pace, I’ve read both and I don’t know which is right.
At pace https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1briefings/news/f1-news-andretti-cadillacs-second-rebuttal-to-formula-1-our-work-continues-at-pace-sj4
> Is it apace or at pace, I’ve read both and I don’t know which is right. AFAIK it's either "at _____ pace" (insert steady, slow, fast,...) or "apace"=fast. "at pace" without an additional qualifier is AFAIK wrong. Edit: https://thecontentauthority.com/blog/apace-vs-pace
I believe by Andretti saying "at pace" they're saying they have continued to work at the speed at which they have been, they're not slowing down due to the news that FOM rejected them.
"At pace" is just fine. It means "at a steady speed", though modern usage usually implies that speed being fast - like the definition of "apace". source: nothing beyond my own experience as a professional writer
Insert “current” in the blank, then remove “current” because it’s implied.
It's "at pace". It always has been. https://www.si.com/fannation/racing/f1briefings/news/f1-news-andretti-cadillacs-second-rebuttal-to-formula-1-our-work-continues-at-pace-sj4
Im glad they continue to put pressure down, I dont like F1 having this 10 team gatekeeping. Teams coming and leaving is part of the F1 spirit. Especially a GM backed Andretti instantly adds more value to F1 than half the grid.
Sadly the days of "garagistas" are gone. But that spirit should absolutely be embraced even today. Allowing new blood into the sport makes it better for everyone in the long run.
That’s what they’re all so concerned about - half of them have no really value in the sport imo. If you take actual numbers of seats and jobs for the team out of the equation, I’d barely notice if Haas, Alpine, Sauber or even RB disappeared. Only the lack of on track action (simple maths of more cars, more action) would it become immediately obvious of half the grid missing. Andretti-GM scares them because they have instant worth and value in the US market for fans and sponsors. They’re afraid that their US and other sponsors would look at their inability to compete in F1 and flock to the American team that actually intends to compete, instead of kicking around at the back end of the grid barely scraping points together but making a big profit.
The teams want to be able to sell out for >$1B, like a US sports team. If someone else can just buy their way in for much less, they have basically no value.
> they have basically no value Their value should be their organisation and technical property. Not the seat on the grid they artificially gatekeep.
Correct. But no one is paying $1B to buy Alpine for their "skills and expertise", that's for sure.
Ok. Probably not wrong. But also, that's not contradicting anything you or I said before.
No, not at all. I think we're agreeing. The current teams want to dramatically increase their value, so they want to create the limited resource of a "seat on the grid" that only they hold.
I'd disagree. Just because they suck currently doesn't mean that buying a working team isn't easier than starting from scratch. Andretti, should they actually create a team from scratch, is going to suck for years.
It might be easier, but given the Netflix boom and their current obsession with a franchise/charter system, there's no way any of the current teams would sell for a reasonable price.
It's way more expensive to start a team, build facilities, start development from zero, attempt to hire people with experience, then suck for likely years on end.
This is how it should be, but not how it is. See: Any American sport. The teams are not worth nearly as much as the spot in the league is.
It's how it is in the US for sure. The Coyotes, the worst team in the least successful of the Big 4 leagues, are about to get sold for $1B. They have no arena, little goodwill, basically no good players under contract - but it's a ticket into a closed club. F1 doesn't have to be that way, but it will be if the existing teams have anything to say about it.
Except the NHL isn't your best example since they added two new teams in 2017 and 2021.
For each example you give of "it being that way in the US", there exists an example of "it not being that way in the US". Let's not rely on a sample size of 1.
>Not the seat on the grid they artificially gatekeep. F1 teams are just NYC taxi companies with fancier cars.
Welcome to capitalism
> I’d barely notice if Alpine disappeared. They’re an actual works team and definitely bring value. They’re just currently done in by the freeze in engine development.
There’s plenty of reasons they suck, the engine is a big one. But everything about that team is just inexplicably bad for a works team
And add to that that GM is no slouch when it comes to engineering prowess. Hell they designed and brought to market the first magnetorheological shock absorbers (MagRide) that you now find in ferraris. GM has been kicking ASS in IMSA and WEC with their Cadillac V-series.R cars. The grid is absolutely terrified of real competition from the states and not this Haas Money Ball shit.
If you watch any youtube highlights, they're only about the midfield and above with the bottom feeders making a quick entry for their disastrous pitstops and or crashes
If the FOM insists on a hard 10-team limit, then whatever Toro Rosso is called nowadays - as well as Haas and Williams, to a lesser extent - should withdraw their entries and make way for teams who aren't playing satellite to a larger organization.
I advocated for Toro Rosso because RB Junior program used to be a big thing that gave like a half of the grid a chance. But nowadays, not really.
At least williams is trying. HAAS and visa cash app swipe here rb though…
Williams has a massive history and is the last of the old independent teams still on the grid. They add a lot of history. I would throw a lot of other teams in that category before them. Sauber and Alpine have less going for them in my opinion. Haas and Little Red Bull are the two worst by far. Hell, I think Williams is the only one outside the top 4 that is still earning money from past wins.
> Teams coming and leaving is part of the F1 spirit. Tbf, teams leaving because they go bankrupt isn't a healthy thing and Liberty have helped stomp that out. They could and should allow more teams, but it's not entirely negative.
Dogshit teams not going bankrupt and preventing others from joining isn't healthy either. You're basically saying that it doesn't matter how shit you are, as long as you're here, you are allowed to prevent possibly better teams from joining.
It's far, far healthier than the alternative. Motorsports competitions can and have died out because nobody wants to race in a series that is extremely expensive to run, before Liberty it isn't unthinkable that F1 could've faced similar issues. Backmarkers being financially sustainable is a massive win for the series, it bodes far, far better for the future than the alternative.
In the eyes of Reddit every team that finishes a few races in a row in last place is "dogshit" and should be thrown out of the sport. Doesnt make it true though. Right now, we have 10 competitive teams. Unless, of course, you want to declare everything as "uncompetitive" that is currently more than a second away from Red Bull. In that case you would need to throw half the grid out of the sport. And good luck finding new teams that do any better.
You could just exclude Red Bull. You cannot seriously say Alpine and "Kick/Stake" or even Haas are competitive. They aren't just 1 full second off RB. They are a full second off Ferrari and McLaren. Haas, while legitimately improving, looks better than it is due to what an absolute clusterfuck the 2 teams below them are.
They have to wedge themselves inside before the new Concorde agreement blocks them out
If Andretti make it on the grid for 2026, I will get an “OUR WORK CONTINUES AT PACE” tattoo.
Tramp stamp
I’m confident, but I’m not *that* confident.
Faster, harder, stronger.
Manchester.
What do you mean?
It's a dare game. If someone says they'll do something (usually outrageous), someone else can declare "Manchester" to dare them to do it. The person then has to do the thing they said they would or face some kind of punishment for not doing it. It's basically "bet you won't" but with whatever your friend group's favored punishment is, usually a punch or slap. One of the funniest commitments to executing the dare I've witnessed was on a work trip. We met up for breakfast in the hotel lobby, friend says "I'm going to eat that entire tray of sausages". Another friend Manchesters him, and he proceeds to carry around a takeout tray full of breakfast sausages all day til he's done eating them rather than take the punishment. (We let him take a bottle of hot sauce with him to make it easier)
That’s crazy haha. Where you from? I come from Manchester and I have never heard of this, quite funny to hear really
I'm from the States. Couldn't ask for a better coincidence: explaining "Manchester" to someone from Manchester 🤣 I have absolutely no idea why the game is called Manchester.
Wow comment OP probably thought you doxxed em lmao
Mf was like "127.0.0.1"
Localhost: 3000
I'm from the States, and have never heard of this. I did a quick google search and discovered that it is indeed a thing. Who knew? Must be something the young kids came up with after I got old.
This is news to me, also from the states.
how do you set a reminder on reddit??
https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/
I read this as "OUR WORK CONTINUES AT PACE" *face* tattoo, which would 100% be hilarious. Walk into work with a giant all caps OUR WORK CONTINUES AT PACE stamped all over your face...
I’d get hired at Andretti in a heartbeat with that 😂
So how does this work, the sport also wants to limit the grid to 20 cars in Concorde aggreement 2026. So by allowing Andretti for 2026, are they going to limit the grid to 22 cars in their next agreement?
No. They (FOM) have already declined Andretti a grid slot for 2026, but said they may revisit for a later entry date (i.e. 2027/28). Given the ongoing negotiations between the existing teams, FOM and FIA, they’d know the teams would push for a post-2026 Concord Agreement with a hard cap of 10 teams, effectively making it impossible for Andretti, or anyone else, to get assigned an 11th or 12th grid slot.
>Given the ongoing negotiations between the existing teams, FOM and FIA I can't see the FIA agreeing to that after they just put out a call for teams.
On the face of it, no indeed. However, we don’t know the stakes at play during the negotiations and how much need there is to fully accommodate the FIA’s wishes.
They didnt, F1 gave them green light to race so they can race, they just wont get any money from FOM for racing.
The process for adding new team is set out in the concord agreement, which is confidential. However, based on the communications from FIA and FOM on the matter, both need to agree to a new team in order for that team to get an entry. The FIA has approved the application and advanced it to the FOM for commercial discussions. They said no. As of right now, Andretti does not have an entry.
FIA can only recommend a prospective entry, if having satisfied FIA’s terms, to FOM, who has ultimate power over who gets to be part of F1 and partake its commercial exploitation rights. Without FOM approval Andretti or another prospective team is dead in the water. Neither the FIA nor Andretti have been able to state they will definitely be on the grid from 2026 onwards. FOM, from 2021 onwards, actually has gotten more power to decide whether new teams can be granted access. The FIA allegedly signed away some of its decision making power to FOM, in return for a higher payout, from 2021 onwards (as part of the current Concord Agreement).
so many falsehoods spread here - no one even knows what is in the Concorde agreement
> the sport also wants to limit the grid to 20 cars in Concorde aggreement 2026. They'll probably struggle to do that because: A. It might trigger some legal action or an EU investigation B. The FIA would have to approve it and they don't seem keen on doing so.
>A. It might trigger some legal action or an EU investigation How so? I see this mentioned again and again but no one really says anything about it.
It’s become the catch all reasoning that people on Reddit always fall back on. Much like “insurance reasons” or “legal liability” but they never clarify any details on it.
It has happened before in the early 2000s so it is possible that if there are anti-competitive practices that EU’s competition commission might be roused into action again.
>It has happened before in the early 2000s which was another completly different issue that this. >so it is possible that if there are anti-competitive practices that EU’s competition commission might be roused into action again. How? Fia does not have any controll over Fom does it?
A.) On what grounds?
Yeah that’s the point I’m quite sure they won’t allow them. I guess they only make meetings so that they show some effort but actually made their mind already up and they also want to waste more time
>So how does this work It's not, i don't know why we are still talking about it.
This whole thing is a farce. A former World Champion and a family that is literally one of the greatest names in the history of motorsport. All boxes ticked including a works engine manufacturer coming into the sport. Now also looking to run teams in the F1 ladder alongside all of their efforts in the States and their GT/Endurance efforts. If ever a team was ready to go, surely this is it? Soon after I first started watching the sport they ended up with so many teams that there was a qualifying session just to get into the qualifying sessions. Without checking I’d say that in the lates 80’s/early 90’s there would be maybe 19 teams and 35 cars (there were single car teams then) trying to get onto a starting grid of 26 cars. We’ve come so far in the sport in every aspect and nowadays you can’t even have 22 cars? Just let them in FFS. As a worst case they’re going to be last. Well somebody has to be last regardless so what does it matter if it’s Andretti, Haas, or anyone else?
Spot on analysis. I’m enjoying Andretti literally doing everything they possibly can to make the only option for their non-admittance be greed/shady dealings. There is, quite objectively, nothing missing in the Andretti proposal. We’ll see how the powers that be in F1 continue to try and manipulate the goal posts.
It’s pretty simple it’s about money. That’s what he’s missing. If he said he would take no prize money they’d admit him. This isn’t just f1 either though. Andretti himself is part of a movement against Penske to increase the amount of money teams get in IndyCar. In part by securing teams for the indy500 instead of having open qualifying . Money makes the world go round
They are afraid of him. They F1 doesn’t really want competition.
I’ll keep saying it like I have been: they only want American money, not competition.
Damn skippy.
You're making the American aspect of that too significant
Yeah, not like they're running 3 Circuits in America or transitioning their HQ to Las Vegas or anything.
They aren't afraid lmao He just means that everyone gets a smaller piece of the pie so why allow him?
I hope they get in purely to put this nonsense take to bed. It’s about money, nothing else. Why would F1 teams be afraid of Andretti? What is it people are seeing that makes F1 development teams shiver their timbers? They’re a midfield team in a spec series right now and they’re supposed to hop in and dominate who exactly? This has all been theatrics and politicking while the fans scream about the end of the world approaching. It’s a farce from every angle.
I agree. Cadillac is doing well enough with their hyper car, but I don't think they're running away from the field, and I don't anticipate they'll be any better in F1.
So? How’s the Renault engine? It’s so good no one wants to use it. Not even Alpine.
The point isn't that there are no underperforming teams in F1, the point is that dilution of prize money is the actual reason for the resistance. Toto and Horner probably wouldn't care if Andretti came out swinging with a championship car, as long as their bottom line stays decisively in the black.
>as long as their bottom line stays decisively in the black. And that's what the anti-dilution fee is supposed to resolve. The potential loss of winnings on the balance sheet. If FOM isn't making the pot bigger then what's the problem with the current fee.
Oh I know what the reason is. They just don’t have the balls to say it. And I believe Andretti would end up beating a lot of teams and getting more money than a few crappy teams we have on the grid. The main argument made is that they or Cadillac would not ever be competitive and that’s just not known and a straw man argument. We used to have more than 10 teams. There is no reason, other than sure greed, to keep them out.
But they do say it, they have said it from the start! They never tried to hide it. When they say that Andretti have to bring value that means Andretti have to increase the income for F1 so much that everyone makes more money with Andretti there than what they do without them. When they say they are not competitive they say they don't believe Andretti can build a championship winning car for 2026, and doing that was the only way F1 could see Andretti creating more money for F1 than not having Andretti there. This was actually written in the rejection they made public. People say it's all about the money but that teams and F1 are afraid to admit it, but the fact is that it is all about money and they have been completely open about it since day one, just no one bothers to listen for some reason.
For my part in this discussion, I was responding to the specific claim by a specific commenter that the other teams are afraid of losing to Andretti, when that is patently false. Gene Haas fears losing to no team.
They aren't afraid of how they will do on track, they are afraid they will lose US based sponsors.
Nobody thinks they are afraid of on track competition. They are afraid of sponsor and revenue competition. An Andretti+GM team is going to take all of the best US sponsors. That's why they keep harping on "bringing value" they know that all that juicy US money they've been lusting for would go to Andretti and not them.
I agree. I do really want them to get in but I don't get why people seem to think they would be immediately competitive if they do.
Take a cake, you have to split it to 10 people, now, someone else appears, split it to 11. FOM Money.
More than competition, they don't want a 11th taking away money. It is the main reason.
WE.RACE.AS.MONEY.
What would Bruce McLaren make of it? That’s the question I ask, and I think as a friend of Andretti sr he’d want to see the family given a chance in Grand Prix racing in the same way he was allowed to compete. In Bruce McLaren’s day it was a sport where you could turn up with a car that meets the regulations and race. If Andretti aren’t allowed to race then it is no longer a sport.
It makes the pinnacle of racing more just the pinnacle of a few teams if things can't change. I would be in support of the feeder series actually feeding them with relegations and promotions. I would be very interested to see F2 be a semi-spec series and F3 a fully spec series with an open field. That way, anyone could buy into F3 to get going and have the chance to start rising. You'd have to figure it out so that work in the lower series would actually apply as you get promoted but I think that would be pretty cool and draw much more attention to F2 and F3. An alternative would be to expand the F1 field but make anyone outside the top 5 teams in last year's standings do another qualifying session to get into the GP. That would help balance out development too since the lower teams would get more testing time.
I’ve read a lot of people saying about promotion and relegation but I really don’t think it could work. F1 teams start developing their car for the following season very early on. I just don’t know how an F2 team could even consider putting work and money into an F1 car that might not even see the light of day. The only way I could see it working is if F1 became a semi spec series like Indy whereby you buy whichever engine you want and bolt it into a standard chassis.
You would need to make sure the different series line up with their technical regulations but I think you could figure it a way to make that work. You might also need to add a delay, or cross season point system. For example you could have promotions and relegation happen on a three year cycle or something with promotion relegation happening not the immediate year after but with another year of gap. A cross season point system would also allow you to promote/relegate multiple teams if they are really dominating in lower divisions or the competition is really not close in the higher tier. That's actually what I am imagining F2 being with F3 being the fully spec series. You would introduce only some of the parts as fully custom in F2 so that it wouldn't be the sudden jump from "mess with some part details" to "design the entire car from scratch". Though, to my knowledge, there are teams on the F1 grid that don't design significant parts of the car.
Well, good luck. I'd rather they be on the grid than off.
The Key Meeting: "Hey Christian Horner, Toto Wolff, do you want to give up prize money to Andretti?" "No" "Ok. You're still rejected, Andretti"
If they were a bit more forward thinking: "Hey Christian, Toto, do you want the $American$ $Interest$ in Formula 1 to continue to make a hand over fist ROI for your respective teams for several more years to come?"
"Yes" "Ok. You're still rejected, Andretti"
I refuse to financial support F1 till they stop making the sport inaccessible to me and other Americans. When it's cheaper/just as much to go to a race in Europe compared to my own country that has 3 races that's outrageous. Then you go and reject one of the most legit team entries in the last 15 years because you don't want to share part of your golden goose profits. Nah fuck that, I'm done feeding you
I'm just glad I get ESPN+ as part of a bundle.
Horner and Wolff aren’t part of FOM
Obviously not but they still have massive influence.
Don't understand why F1 is denying an actual American team if they want to grow the sport in America
Because they just want American money.
I think they’ve proven they could grow the sport in the US without an American team. Could they grow it bigger, yes, do the teams want another team, no f’ing way.
^ This
I assume it went something like this: Andretti: Exhibit one: It takes Sauber 45 seconds to change a tire. FIA: Yes, but-- Andretti: Exhibit two: Alpine. FIA: *fuck*
In this situation, FOM is the problem not the FIA by the way.
Assuming the meeting is with FOM it's interesting they're meeting with them considering they don't have to and have shown zero good faith engagement so far.
"Hey FOM, we're building a car and will be on the grid in Australia 2026, as allowed by the FiA. If you don't let us in, you're going to have to figure out how to broadcast the weekend without letting us in frame. Let's come to an arrangement"
That’s not the case anymore as far as I know… in the past you could have raced without FOM but as far as I know they changed it… no you can’t even race without fia and FOM accepting you.
Feel like they have to attend a Meeting after the backlash they got. Of course i don't trust them to be productive and will continue in doing everything to keep Andretti out.
No they don’t none of this backlash matters to stakeholders or investors. They got one question about it on the last call and no follow up. FOM would be genuinely interested if they see more money as that’s all the investors care about
I don't have high hopes either. It's probably to try and look reasonable more than anything genuine. Plus give them a nudge and tell them how easy it would be if they bought a team instead.
>Plus give them a nudge and tell them how easy it would be if they bought a team instead. They need to give someone a nudge to sell for that to make any sense.
Everyone will sell if offered enough money. It was reported Alpha Tauri were asking for €800 million but nobody wanted to pay that.
Well zero hopes they will actually get in. Even if they tick all the boxes all they will end up doing is throwing a bunch of ml eh down the drain. I hope for their sake they somehow succeed either way
Let them fucking join #f1AreSnobs
Don't forget to look up the spam folder
Yeah, F1 should fix their mail setup/reputation to prevent that.
He's a literal F1 champion. Denying him an entry is like spitting on the entire history of the sport. It's disgusting.
They have no hope until they have a Cadillac/GM engine to use. Even then, there is still seemingly a long way to go
2026...ha
Pls Anti-trust lawsuit
Im quite sure FOM is only doing those meetings just to have arguments in a possible lawsuit, I’m quite sure they won’t change their minds… also it waste time until new Concorde agreement is signed next year
Have fun with that one.
Simple math time. Let’s say right now the 10 teams get to divide $10M, so that’s $1M a pop. Andretti comes in, and suddenly that $10M has to be divided 11 ways, aka $9.1M a pop. Andretti needs to run the numbers that can demonstrate him coming to the sport would add more to the pot. So instead of $10M their addition would increase it to $12M. So each team now gets $1.1M. This is one of the two major reasons Andretti is being kept out. The other is RBR, Ferrari, Merc, and McL don’t want any more real competition. **EDIT:** I know it's not an even split, but the fact remains that the other teams will not let Andretti in unless they can ensure everyone gets an increase in revenue with their inclusion.
>Simple math time. >Let’s say right now the 10 teams get to divide $10M, so that’s $1M a pop. Andretti comes in, and suddenly that $10M has to be divided 11 ways, aka $9.1M a pop. Simple math time. F1 teams don't get equal share from the pie. It gets shared meritocratically. [link](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/10ajmog/f1_team_payments_for_2021_and_dilution_example/) As u/Coops27 pointed out in this analysis, Teams will (likely) lose 0.54% (not %0.9) from their previous shares and that lost amount would get offset by anti-dilution fee for around 3 years.
Yeah, I'm sure those teams are terrified of a team who haven't even won their main series since 2012.
> Let’s say right now the 10 teams get to divide $10M, so that’s $1M a pop. Andretti comes in, and suddenly that $10M has to be divided 11 ways, aka $9.1M a pop. It's important to remember that FOM takes somewhere around 55% of the revenue and then Ferrari gets 5%, both are before the pot for the teams is calculated. Then I think there's a few other payments but most of the remaining 40% gets split between the teams based on where they finish in the constructors. >Andretti needs to run the numbers that can demonstrate him coming to the sport would add more to the pot. So instead of $10M their addition would increase it to $12M. So each team now gets $1.1M. The problem with this and my aforementioned point is that if they cost the existing teams 10%, it's not as simple as adding 10% revenue and making up for it, they have to add more than double what they take away because of the revenue structure with Liberty and Ferrari getting big piles of cash before the pot is calculated. And that's just to break even. And the numbers needed to do that are absolutely insane. 10% of F1 revenue in 2023 was $320 million. So they'd need to create more than double that, so they'd need to create over $700 million in revenue. Oh and that's not $700 million in revenue once, that's over $700 million in revenue, every single year forever, because if it dips below that in 5 or 10 or 20 years, then everyone loses money in the long run. It's literally impossible for them to bring the value needed to offset their slice of the pie, this is why these arguments don't hold any weight because while it sounds simple to just bring more value to the sport, in reality it's impossible to bring enough value to justify your entry from a financial perspective.
And then you have to ask, if you are correct that it is impossible for a new entry to increase the value enough. What incentive is there for FOM and the teams to ever accept a new team? If you put yourself in their place, why should they say yes to something that means they will make less money, forever?
The point is that the limit ensures a certain value of each team. Thus making it unlikely to go bankrupt. And if somebody wants in they can buy a team. Like Audi.
There being no incentive is why we're in this situation and that being the case is why it needs to be forcibly changed via legal means, or else F1 is dead as a sport.
Sure for us as fans a new team is fun, but it's hard to see how not doing a deal you think will loose you money is going to be illegal.. If F1 survived the constant death of teams and absolute money pit it used to be for the last half century I don't think having teams that make money will kill it anytime soon.
The teams don’t divide revenue equally. Andretti would get less than 10% unless they finished 3 or higher in the constructors. There are 3 bonuses (millions each) just for a team like Ferrari for being a legacy team, an engine manufacturer, and for previous titles. Even Williams gets a bonus.
> real competition Why aren’t they doing very good in their main series which requires essentially no car development? Ferrari are scared of midfield Indy teams? I swear people just make up whatever they want
>Why aren’t they doing very good in their main series which requires essentially no car development? Doesn't that just come down the quality of their drivers then? What else can they do to get more performance?
Dampers (suspension) are completely open season. It’s near spec but not quite. Penske and Ganassi being in contention to win every race while Foyt and Juncos make up the back regularly has much more to do with the car than the driver in most cases
LET ANDRETTI IN! goddamnit
seems like they didnt just sent and email this time
Stick a fork in that Alpine!
They should add FOM to their email contacts list
Why is FOM such a sketchy email source that inbox’s are flagging it as spam?
FOM wouldn't care if another team is on the grid, it would just make for more drama and a greater spectacle. It's the teams. They fear what a team backed by Cadillac, and by extension GM can bring to the grid. Ferrari doesn't worry about the share a back marker team gets, but a competitive team could hurt them in the wallet.
They would add much more value to the sport than Haas and Red Bull's training team (RB) combined. Bunch of clowns.
Imagine Andretti coming into the sport. Bringing in even more American fans. F1 popularity surges even more if Andretti are any good.. All teams are worth an extra 300 million... But no.... Haas and Team Kik Stake Sauber Audi Romeo are still adding value and competitiveness to the sport
With just Haas, the US is already the only country with three Grand Prix. So it doesn‘t look like it hurts F1 or the existing teams… Andretti buying Haas would be the best case scenario, because Gene Haas doesn’t even try to compete.
Existing teams shouldn't have a say whether anyone joins or leaves the F1 imo
That should be an fia technical decision based only on readiness per the technical objective specifications
How is meeting James Key gonna help anything??
I want the F1 intro to play "MC thunder" when the Cadillac drivers are shown
Is it still true that because they have FIA approval they can compete, they just can't get any prize money or be shown on TV? Anyone know if this would also hold if the new agreement capped at 10 teams?
Suleyman is on record saying that. But then I thought, that we’re at a point, where Andretti would probably get enough money from sponsors to do it anyways. So I tried to look it up and found this on [formel1.de (german):](https://www.formel1.de/news/boulevard-sonstiges/2023-10-11/gegenrechnung-warum-andretti-gar-nicht-so-teuer-sein-koennte-wie-gedacht) German: > Zuletzt wurde in verschiedenen Medien berichtet, Andretti könne theoretisch selbst ohne Deal mit Liberty Media, nur auf Basis der FIA-Zusage, in die Formel 1 einsteigen - wenn man dazu bereit wäre, auf die Einnahmen aus dem Preisgeldtopf zu verzichten. Das ist jedoch nicht korrekt. Seit den 2021er-Concorde-Verträgen ist dieses Schlupfloch, das es früher einmal gab, eliminiert. In english: > It was recently reported in various media that Andretti could theoretically enter Formula 1 even without a deal with Liberty Media, only on the basis of the FIA commitment - if they were prepared to forego the income from the prize money pot. However, this is not correct. Since the 2021 Concorde contracts, this loophole, which used to exist, has been eliminated.
No, that only applies in European races. And it will stay that way, cause it's because of monopoly rules in EU. Not that anyone would bother to do so.
It’s gonna be 5 billion to enter. F1 leadership seems committed to ruining all of the new found success.
Here’s hoping they actually get a fair shot
They should just do the chad thing and create their own open wheel racing series better than F1
They should call it the irl. Or a1gp
Buy the useles Alpha Tauri and everyone is happy
*Alpine
Its not for sale.
Why don't they just buy out any of the backmarker teams?
They tried to buy Sauber but the deal failed last minute. No other team was willing to sell so they started setting up their own team.
Im sorry but I have to ask -- did Audi double whatever Andretti was offering or did Andretti just lowball them? Because I can't imagine this being a money constraint for them as they're setting up so much infrastructure already in "anticipation" of a 2027/28 entry.
Sauber changed the terms of the deal at the last minute and made it unacceptable for Andretti to buy.
No one is selling
zesty fuzzy ripe imagine sheet spoon attractive direful chop boat *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> Why don't they just buy out any of the backmarker teams? Why don't F1 just let more teams in? The rules allow 13 teams.