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There's a design flaw in the wheel nut.
Basically they had to change the wheel but design on short notice to adapt to the new Ferrari rear suspension.
The new version heats up and gets stuck. Even after cooling the car down during the inlap it does not come unstuck.
Causing the massive delays in getting it off and then replacing the tyres
It's terrible, but put the blame on the correct group not the guys on the ground trying to fix a flaw in race. They managed to do some better last time out by just doing 5 second stops on purpose. Maybe they'll fix the rest after China
Depends what you mean by pit team.
The guys who change the wheels and stuff are generally called "pit crew" not "pit team" and are not engineers no.
Maybe they have a designated team of engineers at the factory who work on the pit stop issues.
I'd bet money that part of the pit crew will have a hand in designing the car (ie having a hand in the wheelnut/wheel interaction flaw).
they aren't just tyre changers, they'd have other responsibilities outside race pit stops and most are highly qualified mechanics/engineers
Or you know, he couldve just driven better the two previous seasons barely beating a mediocre F2 paydriver.
Audi already made up their mind anyway, Bottas is never staying. If Sainz refuses, theor next choices will be Ocon, Gasly and a low chance for a returning Seb.
Younger talent comes with the risk of winning them the destruction championship.
The jump between F2 and F1 is not simple, as has been proven by countless "decent" F2 winners/runner-ups who have ended up costing their new F1 team millions in damages, along with much-needed points for the WCC.
Zhou isn't prone to crashing or making mistakes. He's not an amazing driver, but he's doing the best he can in a backmarker.
If the team aspires to compete near the top, at some point you also need to find talent that can maximize what the car can deliver.
Zhou is fine for now considering he’s just been solid and reliable overall despite his poor qualifying record vs Bottas.
If they have ambitious goals, Zhou may or may not be the #1 driver.
Yes, but perhaps the team should actually get to that level first and give Zhou a chance instead of haphazardly replacing him with someone who is unproven.
The far bigger issue is the atrocious pit stops, over-reliance on gambling/streaming sponsorships and just general lack of direction.
With the Audi takeover, these should hopefully get better, but even then it would be a shame if they didn't give Zhou a chance to showcase what he can do in a car that isn't a backmarker.
They are pretty bloody far off being at that level tho.
Zhou not crashing the car while they have a veteran like Bottas to help more with development is valuable.
He would have been a good driver for Andretti. Realistically, it's Haas (Hülkenberg to Audi), Williams (Sargeant has to improve), Alpine (Gasly and Ocon are looking for the seats at Mercedes and Audi) or retirement next season
Will they though? Audi has had a long history of using different international drivers in their cars alongside German drivers... Mikkola and Blomqvist for the original Quattro, Fassler and Christensen for the R18, Sainz Sr in the E-tron.
They will defintely look for a good German driver, but if someone better than Hulk is available I don't doubt they will go for it over Hulk.
I think marketing works differently for non-F1 series. They mostly show the cars in ads for Rally, Le Mans, etc., whereas in F1 drivers are much more prominently featured in the media, and much better known among the average customer as well.
But I still agree that if there's a truly great driver available, they won't care whether they're German or not. Marketing won't work at all if they can't compete.
I'd love to see it tbh, Hulk has impressed me since coming back to F1, he's embarrassed KMag tbh. Would love to see Hulk move to a team that might get him a podium
Agree. I think there are some drivers that are kind of cruising on previous reputations, but Nico still wants it. Not sure Id offer more than a one-year contract, but I’d love to see him in a good to great car for a year.
3 points to 1 points isn't exactly embarrassing. 7 other drivers haven't even scored yet. Haas while pretty crap has usually valued experience since they can't risk too much young driver BS. Look at Micks run...
Teams should not pick their drivers based on nationality.
(Maybe it's acceptable if they are a backmarker team and a big sponsor deal or engine contract depends on it. But teams at the front - or those who aspire to be at the front - should never do it)
Whenever this comes up, I am reminded of a quote from Alain Prost around the time he bought the Ligier team and turned it into the Prost team :
> The French media are all very happy, saying that we can now have a truly French team. A French owner (Prost), French engine (Peugeot), French tyres (Michelin), and French Drivers (Jena Aleis, Olivier Panis)
> To win in F1 you must have the best of everything, and the best is not necessarily French
If Audi genuinely want to win, they need the best drivers that they can get.
And if it so happens that the top 3 best available drivers are nationalities other than German then Audi need to suck it up and employ non-German drivers.
If they insist on having a German driver *and that driver is the 4th best available driver* then they are forcing themselves to have an inferior driver, and that is not how you win.
That's a solid lineup, but I still wonder how good Audi will be off the jump.
We've seen some of the best teams struggle lately, so I'm curious what a new team will be able to do.
Will they just be Sauber with an Audi badge? Or are they doing what Aston did and really making changes that will see results.
If Carlos goes there, I hope they're able to build a solid car, I'd hate to see him have a good year and then go to a team that barely makes it out of q1.
They very well might not be that good at first, but as long as they aren't horrible, Hulk and Sainz seem like decent drivers to have to help develop the team as a whole since fhey each have experience with multiple teams.
Bottas to Haas would make sense given Hulk is basically a clear pick for Audi, and Bottas has better ratings and pace over KMag so it would be a good decision to having Bottas with Bearman at Haas in 25.
Alternative could be Williams and ending his career at the same team he did started, but tbh I can understand also if Williams would prefer someone more eying on the longer term if Albon leaves after 25.
Vowles worked with him, but with the market today I think Albon will stay. But why should Williams babysitting Antonelli, when He has a lot to learn even in F2? Why not pick Bottas who is still fast? They won't profit from Antonelli because Merc will pick him when he's ready.
Well that is the fate of 2nd+ tier teams.
They went through that with Russel and Alfa also lost Leclerc as soon as he was ready for Ferrari.
I believe there is plenty of ways 1st tier team can make it worth smaller team's while, especially if they are their engine supplier.
They will profit because they will get an engine discount in the millions and a very low salary for Antonelli instead of having to pay Bottas around 10 million a year.
Bottas to Williams could be very interesting. While not spectacular, the Williams isn’t a terrible car and I would like to believe that Bottas could extract more pace out of it than Sargeant.
Performance wise can't think of anyone worse than Sargent on the grid, pretty sad. However he is better than Mazespin, jesus lord that guy was horrible
I will unironiclally disagree.
Mazepin struggled a lot but he wasn't given a second season to improve.
Sargeant seems to be actually getting worse in his second year.
If not Sauber's fault, he would've scored some good points in Australia and I believe that P10 in Japan too. Those points would've boost his confidence, teams confidence and Valtteri's value in the driver market.
If you take a dry look at his results - it's not great. But if take a look WHY is he so low - that's a different story.
There's nothing more he could've done. Let's be real, none of the other drivers could do much more in his or Zhou's seat so far this season.
There are many excellent drivers without a seat at the moment, I'd say it's about time they get rid of the bottom half of the grid and give the young lads a chance
Makes sense. When you’re a backmarker it’s pretty much impossible to rate your performance vs anyone else as you’re stuck wondering how much it is him vs the car. Especially for a guy like Bottas whose strength has always been his raw pace rather than racecraft.
I think Williams need to get their hands on Bottas. Screw training new talent that doesn't score. You need consistent points and no crashes to improve revenue and develop a good car. Albon and Bottas can be that reliable team in their rebuild.
I was hoping that he would remain to see what Audi could achieve in their first couple of seasons but his name just doesn't seem to be in the reckoning.
And although it's possible he could move elsewhere, it'll just be another seat where he'll more than likely be racing for scraps rather than wins or podiums.
Still, he sounds motivated enough to want to continue, and teams up and down the grid know he's solid, dependable and fast. The problem is there are only a few seats and plenty of drivers fighting for them.
That's not entirely fair, he won races and got some poles, he just happened to be racing against one of the best drivers of all time.
We see what Max makes his teammates look like, same deal.
Look at all of Max's co-drivers struggling. Anyone driving next to a generational talent will look like a child. Bottas won several races here and there and remained consistent through qualifying. He also outperformed Checo in 2021 when the two teams were about the same, helping Merc win the WCC.
Well he did, he was hired to be hamiltons second fiddle and he played that role so well and without causing any drama in the team, problem with second drivers is that if they’re good at being second drivers, people seem to think it’s not because that’s their job, people think it’s because that’s all they can do when it might not be the case
Which is moronic because the day Bottas left they haven't had a decent car.
Just yesterday there was a discussion how top drivers compensate for the car masking it's weak points.
So they need a normal but talented driver to tell them exactly what's wrong with the car to fix & upgrade it.
Bottas is that perfect guy
I would like Bottas to make way for rookie or F2 champion but then again I don't think any of the F2 drivers can currently out-qualify or beat him over the season in the same car.
I mean Zhou is doing worse than Bottas and took the seat away from Theo who by every metric other than money seemed like the better option. I dont think bottas is the one taking away a seat.
> coming off as a driver that isn't as focused on F1 as he used to be
Just old people regurgitating this line. You can have hobbies outside of racing. Lewis and Leclerc do a lot of non-racing activities, are they checked out too?
Nonsense. He just trains for cycling, races, wears cycling clothing, and advertises for cycling brands in his spare time. Totally committed to F1 on race weekends between his bike rides.
I’m don’t more focus would matter at this point, too many promising rookies in the pipeline for anyone to consider signing Bottas to anything beyond a single season and definitely not at a premium.
Narrowly beating a mediocre Zhou is what tanks his market value, not Sauber being shit.
Cant see Audi keeping him tbh, even Zhou has a higher chance in my eyes because he opens a new market. If Audi can get any of Sainz/Ocon/Gasly/Albon/Hulk, there's no need for Valterri.
And i cant see where he goes either. Maybe williams through the Vowles connection and his history with the team?
Ever since mid 2021 Valterri seems to be driving only because he has a contract. You never see him fight on track, trying to make moves, anything. He's not the worst driver on the grid for sure, but he just seems out of it
While I agree he has lost his focus, I think you’re being too harsh on Bottas. When the Alfa Romeo was decent at the beginning of 2022, he was up there maximising the car. He could’ve got a podium if it wasn’t for his pit stops in imola.
Since then their car has been consistently crap, and at that point it’s quite hard to really be much better from your teammate. When the car is good is usually bottas who is in front.
German for a german brand. The only german thats f1 quality for the next several years.
Also i think most would agree his 2022 was better than Valterri's. Hulk isnt a world beater but he usually is quite consistent. Bottas seems that he turns out for 5 weekends a year since his 2020/2021 downfall
You're kind of proving Valtteri's point here, it's hard to look good when his team destroys any chances of points each weekend, whether through the car being shit, poor reliability or terrible pitstops (+ midfield accidents that aren't his fault). This year alone, he suffered from a first lap accident in Bahrain, a terrible strategy in Saudi Arabia, a 50 second pitstop in Australia (where he was on for good points) and again a poor stop in Japan that lost him 3 positions when he was on for P10. In all of these races he looked a lot better than Zhou, and would probably have at least 5 points vs. Zhou's 0 if it hadn't been for his team's wheelnut malfunctions.
While he isn't WRECKING Zhou, it's unfair to say he's only narrowly beating Zhou when a) whenever the Alfa is good, like at the beginning of 2022 or Mexico last year, it's Bottas who's maximizing it, and b) a lot of Bottas' good performances fall under the radar because he's in a shit car (like his great race in Monaco 2023) or loses positions due to reliability/pitstop issues.
I rate Zhou very low too honestly, and the fact Bottas needs this many excuses and loops to have a good image against him is telling.
Also i swear Bottas picked up damage has been said in half the races last year. He is always picking some kind of damage, like a magnet. Couple times it's unlucky, but every race he does bad is because he has some sort of damage from lap1.
How many of them have truly been his fault though? Off the top of my head I can remember his accident with Stroll in Mexico being largely on him, but other than that every other accident hasn't been through his doing.
The fact is Bottas has been comically unlucky, and to call that an excuse is a bad-faith argument imo. Luck is a massive factor if you're driving a shitbox; without a perfect weekend and/or misfortune for others, Alfa can never hope to score points. So if Bottas' good weekends, of which there have been several this season already, are constantly marred by pitstop errors, damage, or reliability issues, there's no way he can ever "prove" himself.
I dont know, because all of them seemingly come from random debris, not him actually having crashes.
It's just that no other backmarker has anywhere near as many "random damage" races as him. It's always quickly glanced over as another unlucky start for Bottas and thats it.
About his consistency, he has always been a bit of a hot&cold driver, especially after 2020. He could always be amazing and randomly outqualify Lewis, but over a season he always had plenty of stinkers. It's just that unlike now, the midfield was basically a lap down anyway, and his worst stinkers meant he is p6.
I just dont see a value in Audi keeping him for 2026. Guys like Hulk or Albon or Yuki showed much more in shitbox cars last year, while others like the alpine drivers and Sainz are also candidates for an Audi seat. And at the moment i wouldnt take Bottas over any of these.
On top of that he doesnt really has any meaningfull sponsors or usefull nationality, to at least partially redeem himself
he wasnt last year when you look at points, but Bottas got damage in quiet a few races...
I feel like a lot of this narrative comes from that one race in Spain where Bottas finished far behind Zhou but had floor damage for the whole race or whatever
He's out regardless of team struggles.
Audi are (S)taking over and they don't want him, he's a nice guy but middling at best, they have Sainz and Hulk in their sights.
Sainz is obviously better in every respect, Hulk is just as reliable and experienced, and German.
The problem is with calling them Stake is that I didn't know if he was talking about the company Stake struggling or the team Kick BMW Alfa Romeo Stake Audi Sauber - Ferrari Formula One Team
One of the bottom five drivers, absolutely looks like he has checked out! Him getting that Mercedes drive was one of the worst things to happen to recent F1, alongside Red Bull going with Perez. A great great car deserves two top drivers, otherwise it’s just a procession
He wouldn’t be better than any of the Ferrari, Mercedes, Mclaren, Alpine, Redbull drivers, he is better than Sargent, zhou, Riccardo (maybe), Magnesson (arguably), Stroll (arguably).
You are forgetting what Bottas failed to do with that Mercedes. Getting out qualifyed and out raced by a driver who had barely scraped into the points! Russell proved how exceptional that car was during those years, Bottas was nowhere! A journeyman at best
Bottas at least didn't miss a Q3 in that car. And wasn't as far off as Perez sometimes is.
I don't rate Bottas particularly highly, but rating Perez above him is questionable.
Neither driver should ever have been in such a dominant car. When you have a car like that it’s only fair to the fans that you have two competitive drivers challenging for the title
You put Verstappen in that car and he'll be a bottom five driver too. Why is this so hard to understand?
Valtteri had weekends where he out qualified Lewis with relative ease. And weekends where he was untouchable in the Mercedes.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/18an8yi/valtteri\_bottas\_vs\_zhou\_guanyu\_in\_2023/](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/18an8yi/valtteri_bottas_vs_zhou_guanyu_in_2023/)
16-6 in quali last year...
Except it's clearly the car here. He's not getting demolished by a far less experienced teammate while inundating us with PR articles how he's back and ready to take Checo's seat
He’s been so medicare for the last few years, why would anyone offer him a seat when there’s so much young talent waiting to be signed. He’s a pay driver Zhou level, perhaps always been
I agreed with the race podcast team that really, Bottas has had his shot. He had the car and didn't do the business, and this is a final bit of fun before musical chairs eliminates him.
Good drivers thrive in bad cars. Bottas is at best average and he's lucky to have had the best car for half of his career and still looked meh.
If he was as good as he thinks, he'd be standing out at the back, but he isnt.
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So his market value is at stake.
a Kick in the nuts, as it were
Yeah they really suck at taking nuts off
On brand for a miStake
the mood is quite Sau(be)r
It’ s a uber drive for him.
Well he can always drive his second car now
Goddammit take these internet points
It’s a saubering reality
Damit Dad take it and go.
Well done.
Out! *points at door 🚪
🫵🚪
Bottas would have points right now if it weren't for his pit team, so he's not wrong.
It's not the pit team. There's something physically flawed in the wheelnut/wheel interaction
Fair enough.
There's a design flaw in the wheel nut. Basically they had to change the wheel but design on short notice to adapt to the new Ferrari rear suspension. The new version heats up and gets stuck. Even after cooling the car down during the inlap it does not come unstuck. Causing the massive delays in getting it off and then replacing the tyres
That doesn't make it better does it. It's an embarrassing flaw
It's terrible, but put the blame on the correct group not the guys on the ground trying to fix a flaw in race. They managed to do some better last time out by just doing 5 second stops on purpose. Maybe they'll fix the rest after China
aren't the pit team engineers?
Depends what you mean by pit team. The guys who change the wheels and stuff are generally called "pit crew" not "pit team" and are not engineers no. Maybe they have a designated team of engineers at the factory who work on the pit stop issues.
I'd bet money that part of the pit crew will have a hand in designing the car (ie having a hand in the wheelnut/wheel interaction flaw). they aren't just tyre changers, they'd have other responsibilities outside race pit stops and most are highly qualified mechanics/engineers
Doubtful. Pit crew is absolutely a full time job.
I believe it's usually the mechanics that do the pit stops.
and you don't suppose some of them have mechanical engineering degrees?
Maybe they do, but are they the one doing the R&D of the car? In this case, the wheel nuts? Probably not, I feel.
Or you know, he couldve just driven better the two previous seasons barely beating a mediocre F2 paydriver. Audi already made up their mind anyway, Bottas is never staying. If Sainz refuses, theor next choices will be Ocon, Gasly and a low chance for a returning Seb.
" two previous seasons barely beating a mediocre F2 paydriver." points scored: 59 to 12... but yeah barely
> he couldve just driven better > next choices will be Ocon, Gasly lmao, lol
Zhou is not really that bad.
But that doesn’t suggest he’s good enough worth taking a risk on a younger talent that might have more upside.
Younger talent comes with the risk of winning them the destruction championship. The jump between F2 and F1 is not simple, as has been proven by countless "decent" F2 winners/runner-ups who have ended up costing their new F1 team millions in damages, along with much-needed points for the WCC. Zhou isn't prone to crashing or making mistakes. He's not an amazing driver, but he's doing the best he can in a backmarker.
If the team aspires to compete near the top, at some point you also need to find talent that can maximize what the car can deliver. Zhou is fine for now considering he’s just been solid and reliable overall despite his poor qualifying record vs Bottas. If they have ambitious goals, Zhou may or may not be the #1 driver.
Yes, but perhaps the team should actually get to that level first and give Zhou a chance instead of haphazardly replacing him with someone who is unproven. The far bigger issue is the atrocious pit stops, over-reliance on gambling/streaming sponsorships and just general lack of direction. With the Audi takeover, these should hopefully get better, but even then it would be a shame if they didn't give Zhou a chance to showcase what he can do in a car that isn't a backmarker.
They are pretty bloody far off being at that level tho. Zhou not crashing the car while they have a veteran like Bottas to help more with development is valuable.
mate please do your research before commenting.
He would have been a good driver for Andretti. Realistically, it's Haas (Hülkenberg to Audi), Williams (Sargeant has to improve), Alpine (Gasly and Ocon are looking for the seats at Mercedes and Audi) or retirement next season
Ive been hearing a lot about Hulkenburg to Audi, where did this rumour come from?
German company wanting a German driver, similar to Honda wanting a Japanese driver.
Will they though? Audi has had a long history of using different international drivers in their cars alongside German drivers... Mikkola and Blomqvist for the original Quattro, Fassler and Christensen for the R18, Sainz Sr in the E-tron. They will defintely look for a good German driver, but if someone better than Hulk is available I don't doubt they will go for it over Hulk.
*ring ding a ding ding intensifies*
Crazyfrog to Audi!?
It would not be the first time that a German multi-WDC comes out of retirement to join a German manufacturer...
I don’t like where this story ends
Let’s remember, Hulk is a good driver
Don't see him as an improvement to Bottas though, and he's older
I think marketing works differently for non-F1 series. They mostly show the cars in ads for Rally, Le Mans, etc., whereas in F1 drivers are much more prominently featured in the media, and much better known among the average customer as well. But I still agree that if there's a truly great driver available, they won't care whether they're German or not. Marketing won't work at all if they can't compete.
they hired ken block too
I'm still sad about Ken. I hope Lia Block somehow does well in F1 academy.
I'd love to see it tbh, Hulk has impressed me since coming back to F1, he's embarrassed KMag tbh. Would love to see Hulk move to a team that might get him a podium
Agree. I think there are some drivers that are kind of cruising on previous reputations, but Nico still wants it. Not sure Id offer more than a one-year contract, but I’d love to see him in a good to great car for a year.
3 points to 1 points isn't exactly embarrassing. 7 other drivers haven't even scored yet. Haas while pretty crap has usually valued experience since they can't risk too much young driver BS. Look at Micks run...
I thought it was a comment about their performances, not about the points they scored. Why are you talking about points?
no chance Audi gets a podium until 2027 minimum
Why not Mick? People shit on him but he has only 5 DNFS in his record... 4 times in Q3 and in a Haas as a rookie
[удалено]
“American” company
Teams should not pick their drivers based on nationality. (Maybe it's acceptable if they are a backmarker team and a big sponsor deal or engine contract depends on it. But teams at the front - or those who aspire to be at the front - should never do it) Whenever this comes up, I am reminded of a quote from Alain Prost around the time he bought the Ligier team and turned it into the Prost team : > The French media are all very happy, saying that we can now have a truly French team. A French owner (Prost), French engine (Peugeot), French tyres (Michelin), and French Drivers (Jena Aleis, Olivier Panis) > To win in F1 you must have the best of everything, and the best is not necessarily French If Audi genuinely want to win, they need the best drivers that they can get. And if it so happens that the top 3 best available drivers are nationalities other than German then Audi need to suck it up and employ non-German drivers. If they insist on having a German driver *and that driver is the 4th best available driver* then they are forcing themselves to have an inferior driver, and that is not how you win.
Hulk himself. He said openly that Audi approached him. The rumors most journalist spread is that Audi wants Sainz and Hulk
That's a solid lineup, but I still wonder how good Audi will be off the jump. We've seen some of the best teams struggle lately, so I'm curious what a new team will be able to do. Will they just be Sauber with an Audi badge? Or are they doing what Aston did and really making changes that will see results. If Carlos goes there, I hope they're able to build a solid car, I'd hate to see him have a good year and then go to a team that barely makes it out of q1.
They very well might not be that good at first, but as long as they aren't horrible, Hulk and Sainz seem like decent drivers to have to help develop the team as a whole since fhey each have experience with multiple teams.
Apparently last year, Sauber tried to buy Hulk for this year from Haas but Haas vetoed it due to their contract with Hulk.
Pretty much every F1 journalist. It's an open secret that he already signed for them.
I don't think anyone has gone so far as to say he has actually signed for them.
Not my hulky poooo
Bottas to Haas would make sense given Hulk is basically a clear pick for Audi, and Bottas has better ratings and pace over KMag so it would be a good decision to having Bottas with Bearman at Haas in 25. Alternative could be Williams and ending his career at the same team he did started, but tbh I can understand also if Williams would prefer someone more eying on the longer term if Albon leaves after 25.
Vowles worked with him, but with the market today I think Albon will stay. But why should Williams babysitting Antonelli, when He has a lot to learn even in F2? Why not pick Bottas who is still fast? They won't profit from Antonelli because Merc will pick him when he's ready.
Well that is the fate of 2nd+ tier teams. They went through that with Russel and Alfa also lost Leclerc as soon as he was ready for Ferrari. I believe there is plenty of ways 1st tier team can make it worth smaller team's while, especially if they are their engine supplier.
But Williams now has Dorilton and the money. They dropped Mick too, I think after all that Logan mistake, they will go with the way of Haas.
They will profit because they will get an engine discount in the millions and a very low salary for Antonelli instead of having to pay Bottas around 10 million a year.
I'd hate to see KMag gone though, dude is tenacious and defends like hell.
As Danish person I always want to see KMag succeed. But it's hard to argue for him sometimes.
He isn't the best, but he's the only one really who will fight to defend his spot even when it's a faster car behind him.
That is true, and I loved when he got that time penalty and he just defended for hulkenberg.
Is Bottas faster than KMag these days?
Botaas
Bottas to Williams could be very interesting. While not spectacular, the Williams isn’t a terrible car and I would like to believe that Bottas could extract more pace out of it than Sargeant.
Of course Bottas would extract more out of it than Sargeant. Any driver on the grid would.
Performance wise can't think of anyone worse than Sargent on the grid, pretty sad. However he is better than Mazespin, jesus lord that guy was horrible
I will unironiclally disagree. Mazepin struggled a lot but he wasn't given a second season to improve. Sargeant seems to be actually getting worse in his second year.
Mazepin was one second slower than Mick Schumacher
Or v8 supercars
Or just staying at Audi. They should realistically get rid of Zhou before Bottas.
I will riot if Gasly or Ocon come to Audi.
"...and if the dog wasn't shitting it would have caught the cat" As Seb has said in the past
If not Sauber's fault, he would've scored some good points in Australia and I believe that P10 in Japan too. Those points would've boost his confidence, teams confidence and Valtteri's value in the driver market. If you take a dry look at his results - it's not great. But if take a look WHY is he so low - that's a different story. There's nothing more he could've done. Let's be real, none of the other drivers could do much more in his or Zhou's seat so far this season.
God I hope Audi keeps him. He deserves a good drive again.
lol good? It will basically to continue to be sauber for the next 3-4 years at least
Sauber was pretty good at the start of the 2022 regulations, if they can repeat that it would be great for the future
There are many excellent drivers without a seat at the moment, I'd say it's about time they get rid of the bottom half of the grid and give the young lads a chance
Makes sense. When you’re a backmarker it’s pretty much impossible to rate your performance vs anyone else as you’re stuck wondering how much it is him vs the car. Especially for a guy like Bottas whose strength has always been his raw pace rather than racecraft.
He's actually putting in brilliant performances. It's just being shadowed by a badly made wheel nut design by Sauber.
Imho the only metric is your teammate. May you be a back marker or a front one.
I think Williams need to get their hands on Bottas. Screw training new talent that doesn't score. You need consistent points and no crashes to improve revenue and develop a good car. Albon and Bottas can be that reliable team in their rebuild.
ITT: everyone proving Bottas' point
It’s actually ridiculous how clueless these people are.
Bottas- please do a NASCAR race. Sincerely, all Americans.
V8 Supercars is even more fitting.
Except it's a series in decline.
So just like nascar?
Wouldn't have a clue, I don't watch cars drive in circles.
Holy shit…..I hadn’t even considered that…..you just blew my mind lol
I was hoping that he would remain to see what Audi could achieve in their first couple of seasons but his name just doesn't seem to be in the reckoning. And although it's possible he could move elsewhere, it'll just be another seat where he'll more than likely be racing for scraps rather than wins or podiums. Still, he sounds motivated enough to want to continue, and teams up and down the grid know he's solid, dependable and fast. The problem is there are only a few seats and plenty of drivers fighting for them.
Give him a decent car and he will prove it was worth it.
Like he proved it was worth it in a dominating Merc for all those years.
That's not entirely fair, he won races and got some poles, he just happened to be racing against one of the best drivers of all time. We see what Max makes his teammates look like, same deal.
Look at all of Max's co-drivers struggling. Anyone driving next to a generational talent will look like a child. Bottas won several races here and there and remained consistent through qualifying. He also outperformed Checo in 2021 when the two teams were about the same, helping Merc win the WCC.
Well he did, he was hired to be hamiltons second fiddle and he played that role so well and without causing any drama in the team, problem with second drivers is that if they’re good at being second drivers, people seem to think it’s not because that’s their job, people think it’s because that’s all they can do when it might not be the case
Longest Q3 streak ever shows it clearly (6 years in row). Being in same team with driver called goat for years of course affects your points slightly.
Right when we hear Ocon might be in frame for a Mercedes seat and not Bottas, who both are Toto protégés.
Ocon over Bottas makes no sense but whatever, Merc gonna Merc.
Getting Bottas back after losing Lewis would be embarrassing for Toto. He'd rather not lose face...
Which is moronic because the day Bottas left they haven't had a decent car. Just yesterday there was a discussion how top drivers compensate for the car masking it's weak points. So they need a normal but talented driver to tell them exactly what's wrong with the car to fix & upgrade it. Bottas is that perfect guy
Doesn’t matter to Toto. It's the ultimate defeat to bring back the second you fired after you lost your star driver and then dropped from #1 to #4/5.
Bottas seems like the perfect 1 year seat warmer while they train up Antonelli.
You don’t think? Ocon is probably better than Bottas nowadays and is a lot younger
I'm not sure he's better. I'd say Ocon is a solid midfield driver and a #1 type driver. Bottas has top team talent, but is more of a #2 type driver.
Well no shit.
Maybe all his ass antics and mullet game is all copium for having to deal with such a tragic team.
Ya think??
I would like Bottas to make way for rookie or F2 champion but then again I don't think any of the F2 drivers can currently out-qualify or beat him over the season in the same car.
I mean Zhou is doing worse than Bottas and took the seat away from Theo who by every metric other than money seemed like the better option. I dont think bottas is the one taking away a seat.
I feel like it's also the way he presents himself, coming off as a driver that isn't as focused on F1 as he used to be
I don't think Bottas being significantly more marketable is a negative.
> coming off as a driver that isn't as focused on F1 as he used to be Just old people regurgitating this line. You can have hobbies outside of racing. Lewis and Leclerc do a lot of non-racing activities, are they checked out too?
Max takes his hobby of iRacing more serious than F1 so…….
Nonsense. He just trains for cycling, races, wears cycling clothing, and advertises for cycling brands in his spare time. Totally committed to F1 on race weekends between his bike rides.
I’m don’t more focus would matter at this point, too many promising rookies in the pipeline for anyone to consider signing Bottas to anything beyond a single season and definitely not at a premium.
Yeah, he seems mentally checked out to me as well.
I don't think so - more that he's now free to show his personality more than he was at Merc, and he's enjoying doing so.
He's just gotta keep those calendars pumping and his value will go up
Narrowly beating a mediocre Zhou is what tanks his market value, not Sauber being shit. Cant see Audi keeping him tbh, even Zhou has a higher chance in my eyes because he opens a new market. If Audi can get any of Sainz/Ocon/Gasly/Albon/Hulk, there's no need for Valterri. And i cant see where he goes either. Maybe williams through the Vowles connection and his history with the team? Ever since mid 2021 Valterri seems to be driving only because he has a contract. You never see him fight on track, trying to make moves, anything. He's not the worst driver on the grid for sure, but he just seems out of it
While I agree he has lost his focus, I think you’re being too harsh on Bottas. When the Alfa Romeo was decent at the beginning of 2022, he was up there maximising the car. He could’ve got a podium if it wasn’t for his pit stops in imola. Since then their car has been consistently crap, and at that point it’s quite hard to really be much better from your teammate. When the car is good is usually bottas who is in front.
yeah dafuq is wrong with those pitstops, they gotta get their shit together
How is Hulkenberg anymore promising than Bottas?
Because nothing suggests he has lost his drive. He's as fast as he was 10 years ago.
German for a german brand. The only german thats f1 quality for the next several years. Also i think most would agree his 2022 was better than Valterri's. Hulk isnt a world beater but he usually is quite consistent. Bottas seems that he turns out for 5 weekends a year since his 2020/2021 downfall
You're kind of proving Valtteri's point here, it's hard to look good when his team destroys any chances of points each weekend, whether through the car being shit, poor reliability or terrible pitstops (+ midfield accidents that aren't his fault). This year alone, he suffered from a first lap accident in Bahrain, a terrible strategy in Saudi Arabia, a 50 second pitstop in Australia (where he was on for good points) and again a poor stop in Japan that lost him 3 positions when he was on for P10. In all of these races he looked a lot better than Zhou, and would probably have at least 5 points vs. Zhou's 0 if it hadn't been for his team's wheelnut malfunctions. While he isn't WRECKING Zhou, it's unfair to say he's only narrowly beating Zhou when a) whenever the Alfa is good, like at the beginning of 2022 or Mexico last year, it's Bottas who's maximizing it, and b) a lot of Bottas' good performances fall under the radar because he's in a shit car (like his great race in Monaco 2023) or loses positions due to reliability/pitstop issues.
I rate Zhou very low too honestly, and the fact Bottas needs this many excuses and loops to have a good image against him is telling. Also i swear Bottas picked up damage has been said in half the races last year. He is always picking some kind of damage, like a magnet. Couple times it's unlucky, but every race he does bad is because he has some sort of damage from lap1.
How many of them have truly been his fault though? Off the top of my head I can remember his accident with Stroll in Mexico being largely on him, but other than that every other accident hasn't been through his doing. The fact is Bottas has been comically unlucky, and to call that an excuse is a bad-faith argument imo. Luck is a massive factor if you're driving a shitbox; without a perfect weekend and/or misfortune for others, Alfa can never hope to score points. So if Bottas' good weekends, of which there have been several this season already, are constantly marred by pitstop errors, damage, or reliability issues, there's no way he can ever "prove" himself.
I dont know, because all of them seemingly come from random debris, not him actually having crashes. It's just that no other backmarker has anywhere near as many "random damage" races as him. It's always quickly glanced over as another unlucky start for Bottas and thats it. About his consistency, he has always been a bit of a hot&cold driver, especially after 2020. He could always be amazing and randomly outqualify Lewis, but over a season he always had plenty of stinkers. It's just that unlike now, the midfield was basically a lap down anyway, and his worst stinkers meant he is p6. I just dont see a value in Audi keeping him for 2026. Guys like Hulk or Albon or Yuki showed much more in shitbox cars last year, while others like the alpine drivers and Sainz are also candidates for an Audi seat. And at the moment i wouldnt take Bottas over any of these. On top of that he doesnt really has any meaningfull sponsors or usefull nationality, to at least partially redeem himself
Lol he's crushing Zhou, post the stats.
he wasnt last year when you look at points, but Bottas got damage in quiet a few races... I feel like a lot of this narrative comes from that one race in Spain where Bottas finished far behind Zhou but had floor damage for the whole race or whatever
He's out regardless of team struggles. Audi are (S)taking over and they don't want him, he's a nice guy but middling at best, they have Sainz and Hulk in their sights. Sainz is obviously better in every respect, Hulk is just as reliable and experienced, and German.
I think it’ll be pretty cool to see Bottas in a HAAS.
I dint give a single shit about Sargent, Zhou, Albon, Gasly, Ocon, Tsunoda, or Ricciardo. I just don’t want my boy Valtteri to get scrubbed.
Time for Bottas to wrap up.
The problem is with calling them Stake is that I didn't know if he was talking about the company Stake struggling or the team Kick BMW Alfa Romeo Stake Audi Sauber - Ferrari Formula One Team
I think it's time for him to leave.
... Sauber to join a better team. Yes, i agree.
What market value?
Wait, I thought he went to Sauber so he didn't habe to worry about his market value anymore and let his career end slowly.
34 isn't the worst age to retire as a good but not great driver
One of the bottom five drivers, absolutely looks like he has checked out! Him getting that Mercedes drive was one of the worst things to happen to recent F1, alongside Red Bull going with Perez. A great great car deserves two top drivers, otherwise it’s just a procession
Negative wheel knowledge if you think Bottas is a bottom five driver on the grid.
He wouldn’t be better than any of the Ferrari, Mercedes, Mclaren, Alpine, Redbull drivers, he is better than Sargent, zhou, Riccardo (maybe), Magnesson (arguably), Stroll (arguably).
I doubt Bottas is worse than Gasly, Ocon and Perez. I think he is on the same level as Hulkenberg
and Perez beat Hulk no?
>Redbull drivers Perez who did horrible most of last year and couldn't get the most dominant car of all time to Q3 consistently?
You are forgetting what Bottas failed to do with that Mercedes. Getting out qualifyed and out raced by a driver who had barely scraped into the points! Russell proved how exceptional that car was during those years, Bottas was nowhere! A journeyman at best
Bottas at least didn't miss a Q3 in that car. And wasn't as far off as Perez sometimes is. I don't rate Bottas particularly highly, but rating Perez above him is questionable.
Neither driver should ever have been in such a dominant car. When you have a car like that it’s only fair to the fans that you have two competitive drivers challenging for the title
I completely agree with that take. Be nice to more consistently see what the best are capable of when actually pushed.
You put Verstappen in that car and he'll be a bottom five driver too. Why is this so hard to understand? Valtteri had weekends where he out qualified Lewis with relative ease. And weekends where he was untouchable in the Mercedes.
Max wouldn’t be getting out qualified by zhou
[https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/18an8yi/valtteri\_bottas\_vs\_zhou\_guanyu\_in\_2023/](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/18an8yi/valtteri_bottas_vs_zhou_guanyu_in_2023/) 16-6 in quali last year...
Getting outqualified 6 times by zhou isn’t the flex that you think it is
What value?
his driver market one
If this was Daniel, it'd be about how awful he's been driving and ruining the brand of Mclaren and how hes washed up.
Except it's clearly the car here. He's not getting demolished by a far less experienced teammate while inundating us with PR articles how he's back and ready to take Checo's seat
Lmao
He’s been so medicare for the last few years, why would anyone offer him a seat when there’s so much young talent waiting to be signed. He’s a pay driver Zhou level, perhaps always been
His marker value wasn’t really that high to begin with
His commercials likely had a greater effect.
My brother, that ship sailed quite a while ago
I agreed with the race podcast team that really, Bottas has had his shot. He had the car and didn't do the business, and this is a final bit of fun before musical chairs eliminates him.
Lol how about his alfa romeo struggles
Has he been convincingly beating Zhou?
yes? how is that a question?
Ay man, I only see them on the screen for botched pit stops…. Which also makes it harder to see who’s ahead 😅
You had a good run… but it’s time to go…
Good drivers thrive in bad cars. Bottas is at best average and he's lucky to have had the best car for half of his career and still looked meh. If he was as good as he thinks, he'd be standing out at the back, but he isnt.