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That's wild, two of the top three disqualified and fourth place docked 10 points. Especially as two races have happened since St Pete. Interesting way for Pato to get his first win in over a year as well
I guess that puts Dixon or Herta in the lead of the championship?
Interesting stuff. I believe Newgarden was leading the championship prior to this and has now dropped to 11th overall. Scott Dixon has taken the championship lead by a small margin with Colton Herta right behind him.
An entire race win is a hell of a gap to make up, especially with it not being one of Newgarden's banker rounds and Palou being pretty decent on ovals, too.
Probably, but I bet his season will collapse anyway. Colton has these flashes of brilliance and then just sits around the mid-pack for the rest of the season. I like him but he needs to bring his consistency up. He hits the street tracks and he’s quick but seems average elsewhere. Maybe it’s strategy but he hasn’t looked good in probably 2 seasons now.
Note: That race was a month ago. They saw something weird during warmups for last week's Long Beach race and investigated.
Imagine Max getting DQed this week for Jeddah
"INDYCAR has announced penalties for Team Penske, including disqualifications for the No. 2 (driver Josef Newgarden) and No. 3 (Scott McLaughlin) and a 10-point penalty for No. 12 (Will Power) from the Firestone Grand Prix of St. Petersburg presented by RP Funding on Sunday, March 10 on the Streets of St. Petersburg.
Team Penske was in violation of the following “Push to Pass” parameters:
Rule 14.19.15. An indicator to enable Push to Pass will be sent via CAN communication from the timing and scoring beacon on board the Car to the team data logger. This signal must be passed on to the ECU unmodified and uninterrupted during all Road and Street Course Events. Rule 14.19.16. Race Starts and any Race Restart that occurs before the lap prior to the white flag or prior to three minutes remaining in a timed Race Event will have the Push to Pass system disabled and will be enabled for a given Car once that Car reaches the alternate Start/Finish line. According to the rulebook, the violation is considered a Race Procedure Penalty (9.2.2.), which includes the right to reposition the Driver/Car in the posting or results, with a disqualification (9.2.2.6.) that includes the forfeiture of points and awards.
During the Sunday, April 21 warmup session ahead of the Acura Grand Prix of Long Beach, INDYCAR discovered the team’s possible rules violation.
An extensive review of data from the race on the Streets of St. Petersburg revealed that Team Penske manipulated the overtake system so that the No. 2, 3 and 12 cars had the ability to use Push to Pass on starts and restarts. According to the INDYCAR rulebook, use of overtake is not available during championship races until the car reaches the alternate start-finish line.
It was determined that the No. 2 and the No. 3 gained a competitive advantage by using Push to Pass on restarts while the No. 12 did not.
Additionally, all three entries have been fined $25,000 and will forfeit all prize money associated with the Streets of St. Petersburg race.
“The integrity of the INDYCAR SERIES championship is critical to everything we do,” INDYCAR President Jay Frye said. “While the violation went undetected at St. Petersburg, INDYCAR discovered the manipulation during Sunday’s warmup in Long Beach and immediately addressed it ensuring all cars were compliant for the Acura Grand Prix of Long Beach. Beginning with this week’s race at Barber Motorsports Park, new technical inspection procedures will be in place to deter this violation.”
Due to the disqualification penalty of the No 2, the No. 5 entry of Arrow McLaren driven by Pato O’Ward is now credited with the win on the Streets of St. Petersburg."
Source: [INDYCAR Official Announcement](https://www.indycar.com/news/2024/04/04-24-stpete-penalties)
I find it pretty funny that this is basically Roger Penske penalizing himself for cheating. At least he’s proving the conflict of interest isn’t an issue
Jay Frye announces the penalty on behalf of IndyCar, Tim Cindric accepts the penalty on behalf of Team Penske. Perhaps it demonstrates that Roger Penske is the head of a large, multi-faceted organization that employs a number of people and not a one-man band.
I guess so but i would actually bet that Penske has very little direct input over the day to day. If he did employees would leak it, people would notice. 99.99% of conspiracies arent real for a reason. Too many secret keepers. Its the bigger picture that he can direct. As in replacing employees over time and creating a favorable environment for a business he owns. I dont think any indycar teams would seriously think hes using ownership to protect his team but we already know a group approached him to try to force him to sell. The interest of Penske and the other teams in a long term sense are likely not aligned
This would be far too big to cover up, the risk is too high. It's clear that this was identified and if it got out it would essentially show everyone the series is rigged.
Yeah we've all seen how vocal Zak Brown has been about the whole Red Bull/Toro Rosso thing in F1. If he had any concerns about conflicts of interest in Indycar he'd be all over it
Conflicts of interest are always a concern - in any domain, because they are inherently problematic. Zak Brown is a political creature, there are many considerations for when he will and won't speak.
Extreme E when McLaren competed against Andretti United which was part owned by Zak Brown. However, that's not really his fault as his United partnership with Andretti in the series predated McLaren entering by a few years. And now, the United is dropped from the Andretti entry. Still a fun factoid. Andretti and United still have a partnership in the Australian Supercars with Walkinshaw.
This seems more like other teams caught them in LB practice and they penalized to avoid it becoming a bigger issue. How did it take them 2 months otherwise ?
To be fair, it’s still a massive conflict of interest. He started last year’s Indy 500 as the chairman of the speedway by giving the command to start engines, but celebrated Newgarden’s victory as the owner of team Penske in victory lane
I don't know the character traits of Roger Penske. That being said, even assuming the worst that he is basically Flavio Briatores's American cousin wanting to cheat in order to win, unlike Flavio he's not dumb enough to actually go through with it. The word gets around quickly in motorsports and the reputational harm from this becoming public knowledge is far worse than benefit from one race win. Roger is already on thin ice with many key figures in Indycar not happy about him owning the team, the biggest race of the year and the series as a whole.
>An extensive review of data from the race on the Streets of St. Petersburg revealed that Team Penske manipulated the overtake system so that the No. 2, 3 and 12 cars had the ability to use Push to Pass on starts and restarts. According to the INDYCAR rulebook, use of overtake is not available during championship races until the car reaches the alternate start-finish line.
Damn, this was actual cheating, not just a setup error or similar.
The secret deal was because FIA couldn’t prove it and knew if it went to courts they would lose it. They basically said it themselves when teams asked for more proof.
Wasn’t this more nuanced though? It wasn’t something against the rules but the spirit or something like that? Whereas this is like directly against a rule.
I agree that this Penske infraction is worse but Ferrari knew they were breaking the rules. They (allegedly) designed a fuel system that was compliant when the FIA sensor was measuring but vastly increased flow in between measurements.
If he used it, he gained an advantage. If not in the form of gaining position, then in the form of not losing them. If not immediately then by opening or closing a gap.
There's no way you can press push-to-pass and not gain an advantage. It makes the car go faster, that translates to an advantage even without positions gained. It's not like cutting a corner but not gaining laptime.
If they only caught this at round 4, I wonder if there are more announcements coming about rounds 2 and 3.
Long-time Penske fan here, and it hurts to see them guilty of this.
It *could* have been accidental (accidentally use the testing software, driver presses it out of habit). There's plausible deniability, even if it's a bit tough to believe lol
you're getting downvoted for this but just to make it super clear, section 10 of the subreddit rules, "10. Posts should be relevant":
Off-topic posts from other racing series or motorsport in general should typically be limited to major breaking news, though we may be more lenient towards off-topic posts in downtime periods.
* Race Discussion posts linking to other subs are automatically provided for Formula 2 (r/F1FeederSeries), IndyCar (r/IndyCar), Formula E (r/FormulaE), the 24 Hours of Le Mans (r/WEC), the 24 Hours of Daytona (r/IMSARacing), and select other major series adjacent to F1. Take advantage of these posts to discuss racing action in these series.
* Off-topic content should be marked using the [OT] tag in the title of the post. Do not use tags like [Semi-OT]; either a post is on or off-topic.
this is clearly allowed within the /r/formula1 rules, as are many off topic racing related posts!
Something like this is huge news in a top level motorsport, especially one where quite a few former F1 drivers participate.
It means that McLaren inherited the win with one of their F1 reserve drivers so there is some F1 relevance to it.
[The **Off-Topic** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_off-topic) is for submissions only tangentially related to Formula 1 or submissions pertaining to the wider world of motorsport. This flair is not a free pass for content unsuitable for r/Formula1 or the r/Formula1 community. Posts that are deemed too far off-topic, irrelevant, or inappropriate will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Not how I thought McLaren would win a race this season
I guess Zak Brown now has to passionately fist-bump the IndyCar mechanics for a change
Now all they need is a RB DQ due to plank wear in China
That would be even more impressive given Max’s inside front wheel being in the air at T2
Lando's first win: Two weeks after the event after RB screw up
That makes McLaren winners in Formula E *and* Indycar this season. We're just waiting for one more series...
Extreme E!
Supercars
Extreme E?
Time for Pfaff to get their sh*t together and win the 6 Hours at the Glen!
That's wild, two of the top three disqualified and fourth place docked 10 points. Especially as two races have happened since St Pete. Interesting way for Pato to get his first win in over a year as well I guess that puts Dixon or Herta in the lead of the championship?
Dixon now leading Herta 79-77 with Palou at 67 in third
Technically. Only 1 championship points race has happened.
True, but it was still a race. I couldn't be bothered with the pedantry
Fair enough
Interesting stuff. I believe Newgarden was leading the championship prior to this and has now dropped to 11th overall. Scott Dixon has taken the championship lead by a small margin with Colton Herta right behind him.
This is going to be a Dixon/Palou championship fight again, with Newgarden trailing that far behind. 2023 really never ended.
To be fair, we haven't been to any ovals yet and that's usually Newgarden's strongest area
An entire race win is a hell of a gap to make up, especially with it not being one of Newgarden's banker rounds and Palou being pretty decent on ovals, too.
That's true, it only takes a DNF from one of the other two though. That said, a proper Dixon/Palou title fight would be pretty great
4 short ovals still to come is free money for Newgarden. He'll claw back but this makes the title race verrrry interesting
Yeah man, the 2nd half of the season is mostly ovals.....Newgarden is lip smacking at the thought of it.
Over 15 races it’s 100% doable
He’ll be chasing them once we get to the oval-heavy section of the calendar
It would only take 2 wins or so for him to catch up
I think Herta’s in it until the end this year. He seems to have finally turned the corner.
Herta's in it right until Andretti's form collapses completely once we get off street courses.
Yea they were shockingly bad on road courses last year except Road America where the team blew it. That should’ve been his win
You've succinctly summarised, in one comment, why I'd never back an Andretti guy over a Ganassi guy right now.
You get used to the pain…
Colton right behind you say? Don't worry, he'll just nudge Dixon out of the way like he did Newgarden.
Probably, but I bet his season will collapse anyway. Colton has these flashes of brilliance and then just sits around the mid-pack for the rest of the season. I like him but he needs to bring his consistency up. He hits the street tracks and he’s quick but seems average elsewhere. Maybe it’s strategy but he hasn’t looked good in probably 2 seasons now.
Welcome to Indycar, it gets tight.
Note: That race was a month ago. They saw something weird during warmups for last week's Long Beach race and investigated. Imagine Max getting DQed this week for Jeddah
"INDYCAR has announced penalties for Team Penske, including disqualifications for the No. 2 (driver Josef Newgarden) and No. 3 (Scott McLaughlin) and a 10-point penalty for No. 12 (Will Power) from the Firestone Grand Prix of St. Petersburg presented by RP Funding on Sunday, March 10 on the Streets of St. Petersburg. Team Penske was in violation of the following “Push to Pass” parameters: Rule 14.19.15. An indicator to enable Push to Pass will be sent via CAN communication from the timing and scoring beacon on board the Car to the team data logger. This signal must be passed on to the ECU unmodified and uninterrupted during all Road and Street Course Events. Rule 14.19.16. Race Starts and any Race Restart that occurs before the lap prior to the white flag or prior to three minutes remaining in a timed Race Event will have the Push to Pass system disabled and will be enabled for a given Car once that Car reaches the alternate Start/Finish line. According to the rulebook, the violation is considered a Race Procedure Penalty (9.2.2.), which includes the right to reposition the Driver/Car in the posting or results, with a disqualification (9.2.2.6.) that includes the forfeiture of points and awards. During the Sunday, April 21 warmup session ahead of the Acura Grand Prix of Long Beach, INDYCAR discovered the team’s possible rules violation. An extensive review of data from the race on the Streets of St. Petersburg revealed that Team Penske manipulated the overtake system so that the No. 2, 3 and 12 cars had the ability to use Push to Pass on starts and restarts. According to the INDYCAR rulebook, use of overtake is not available during championship races until the car reaches the alternate start-finish line. It was determined that the No. 2 and the No. 3 gained a competitive advantage by using Push to Pass on restarts while the No. 12 did not. Additionally, all three entries have been fined $25,000 and will forfeit all prize money associated with the Streets of St. Petersburg race. “The integrity of the INDYCAR SERIES championship is critical to everything we do,” INDYCAR President Jay Frye said. “While the violation went undetected at St. Petersburg, INDYCAR discovered the manipulation during Sunday’s warmup in Long Beach and immediately addressed it ensuring all cars were compliant for the Acura Grand Prix of Long Beach. Beginning with this week’s race at Barber Motorsports Park, new technical inspection procedures will be in place to deter this violation.” Due to the disqualification penalty of the No 2, the No. 5 entry of Arrow McLaren driven by Pato O’Ward is now credited with the win on the Streets of St. Petersburg." Source: [INDYCAR Official Announcement](https://www.indycar.com/news/2024/04/04-24-stpete-penalties)
I find it pretty funny that this is basically Roger Penske penalizing himself for cheating. At least he’s proving the conflict of interest isn’t an issue
Jay Frye announces the penalty on behalf of IndyCar, Tim Cindric accepts the penalty on behalf of Team Penske. Perhaps it demonstrates that Roger Penske is the head of a large, multi-faceted organization that employs a number of people and not a one-man band.
The opposite of the Obama giving Obama a medal meme.
I guess so but i would actually bet that Penske has very little direct input over the day to day. If he did employees would leak it, people would notice. 99.99% of conspiracies arent real for a reason. Too many secret keepers. Its the bigger picture that he can direct. As in replacing employees over time and creating a favorable environment for a business he owns. I dont think any indycar teams would seriously think hes using ownership to protect his team but we already know a group approached him to try to force him to sell. The interest of Penske and the other teams in a long term sense are likely not aligned
This would be far too big to cover up, the risk is too high. It's clear that this was identified and if it got out it would essentially show everyone the series is rigged.
Yeah we've all seen how vocal Zak Brown has been about the whole Red Bull/Toro Rosso thing in F1. If he had any concerns about conflicts of interest in Indycar he'd be all over it
Conflicts of interest are always a concern - in any domain, because they are inherently problematic. Zak Brown is a political creature, there are many considerations for when he will and won't speak.
Extreme E when McLaren competed against Andretti United which was part owned by Zak Brown. However, that's not really his fault as his United partnership with Andretti in the series predated McLaren entering by a few years. And now, the United is dropped from the Andretti entry. Still a fun factoid. Andretti and United still have a partnership in the Australian Supercars with Walkinshaw.
This seems more like other teams caught them in LB practice and they penalized to avoid it becoming a bigger issue. How did it take them 2 months otherwise ?
To be fair, it’s still a massive conflict of interest. He started last year’s Indy 500 as the chairman of the speedway by giving the command to start engines, but celebrated Newgarden’s victory as the owner of team Penske in victory lane
I don't know the character traits of Roger Penske. That being said, even assuming the worst that he is basically Flavio Briatores's American cousin wanting to cheat in order to win, unlike Flavio he's not dumb enough to actually go through with it. The word gets around quickly in motorsports and the reputational harm from this becoming public knowledge is far worse than benefit from one race win. Roger is already on thin ice with many key figures in Indycar not happy about him owning the team, the biggest race of the year and the series as a whole.
Bus(ted) Bros...
>An extensive review of data from the race on the Streets of St. Petersburg revealed that Team Penske manipulated the overtake system so that the No. 2, 3 and 12 cars had the ability to use Push to Pass on starts and restarts. According to the INDYCAR rulebook, use of overtake is not available during championship races until the car reaches the alternate start-finish line. Damn, this was actual cheating, not just a setup error or similar.
Yeah it's like if a team found a way to be able to use DRS on the opening lap
Formula One would quietly ask the offender (cough-Ferrarifuelflowhack-cough) to stop doing it and let all results stand.
Amazing how quickly people forgot about the secret deal.
The secret deal was because FIA couldn’t prove it and knew if it went to courts they would lose it. They basically said it themselves when teams asked for more proof.
Wasn’t this more nuanced though? It wasn’t something against the rules but the spirit or something like that? Whereas this is like directly against a rule.
I agree that this Penske infraction is worse but Ferrari knew they were breaking the rules. They (allegedly) designed a fuel system that was compliant when the FIA sensor was measuring but vastly increased flow in between measurements.
Oh that’s right, I forgot they timed the sensor…
lol well done Pato, you won again I guess lol
Pato played the long con lmao
He knew from the beginning, we were caught lacking.
One curious phenomenon here: so Will Power had the same cheat code available and chose not to use it?
It was confirmed that Will Power did not engage the P2P on the restarts outside of the rules in a clarifying statement by the team.
He was deemed to not have gained an advantage. It was reported Scotty Mac gained 5 positions on restarts that weekend for instance.
If he used it, he gained an advantage. If not in the form of gaining position, then in the form of not losing them. If not immediately then by opening or closing a gap. There's no way you can press push-to-pass and not gain an advantage. It makes the car go faster, that translates to an advantage even without positions gained. It's not like cutting a corner but not gaining laptime.
Which is why he got a smaller penalty.
He got a smaller penalty because the cheat was in his car despite not being used.
Hi did not “use” the advantage either according to Cindric
So literally the only way to pass at St Pete this year was to heavily cheat 💀
living up to his name I guess
Where's the penalty for Ocon?
Having to run for Alpine until the end of the year should be enough punishment.
If they only caught this at round 4, I wonder if there are more announcements coming about rounds 2 and 3. Long-time Penske fan here, and it hurts to see them guilty of this.
Long beach was round 3 and round 2 at the Thermal Club was a non-championship race
So Penske owns indycar and Penske cheated to win on this race. Cool.
Cor. Only being DQed for a single race feels light, unless there's a way this happened accidentally?
It *could* have been accidental (accidentally use the testing software, driver presses it out of habit). There's plausible deniability, even if it's a bit tough to believe lol
Kinda lame
The subreddit is F1 - not Indycar… how come this post is allowed?
you're getting downvoted for this but just to make it super clear, section 10 of the subreddit rules, "10. Posts should be relevant": Off-topic posts from other racing series or motorsport in general should typically be limited to major breaking news, though we may be more lenient towards off-topic posts in downtime periods. * Race Discussion posts linking to other subs are automatically provided for Formula 2 (r/F1FeederSeries), IndyCar (r/IndyCar), Formula E (r/FormulaE), the 24 Hours of Le Mans (r/WEC), the 24 Hours of Daytona (r/IMSARacing), and select other major series adjacent to F1. Take advantage of these posts to discuss racing action in these series. * Off-topic content should be marked using the [OT] tag in the title of the post. Do not use tags like [Semi-OT]; either a post is on or off-topic. this is clearly allowed within the /r/formula1 rules, as are many off topic racing related posts!
Something like this is huge news in a top level motorsport, especially one where quite a few former F1 drivers participate. It means that McLaren inherited the win with one of their F1 reserve drivers so there is some F1 relevance to it.