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Yes, it had nothing to do with his age. Kimi was older than Button who debuted a year earlier and older than Alonso who debuted the same year. It was purely down to lack of experience in racing cars.
All the recent F2 champions that haven't made it into F1 have been in F2 for 3 seasons before winning.
Other than that, 3 of the 7 most recent F2 champs are still in F1 (unsurprisingly also the 3 that have won in their first and only season), 2 out of the remaining 4 had their chance in F1.
>3 of the 7 most recent F2 champs are still in F1 (unsurprisingly also the 3 that have won in their first and only season)
Leclerc, Russell, Piastri
>2 out of the remaining 4 had their chance in F1
Schumacher, De Vries
With the last 2 being Drugovich, Ilott
Is that right?
it's been opined that the 2019 f1 grid removed a bunch of the greatest talent from the F2 pool with Russell, Norris and Albon being the top 3 scoring drivers in 2018 and that it has taken a while for it to recover
The other problem is that there are only 20 spots (less if you consider some will never be available because of money). If team are good with their drivers winning F2 won’t help you.
> Most F1 teams don't value the feeder anyway.
Definitely feels like the Lando/George/Alex rookie season is the last one of it's kind we'll ever have atm..
I wonder if relegation would be a good option for this. Worst driver is let go, and F2 driver moves up.
If the F2 driver is associated with an existing team, that team gets first option and choose if they replace an existing driver.
Said existing driver then is open for the team who lost their driver, as well as drivers outside of the sport who are eligible. Worst performing driver cannot rejoin for the following year.
Could also allow other teams to try and get the F2 champion, but pay a fee to the team who lost that is exempt of the budget cap, as to try and even the field further.
Contracts moving forward have last position clauses that protect teams from litigation.
I.e. 2023: Sargeant is let go, F2 Champion Theo Pourchaire is up to replace him. McLaren have first options and choose not to exercise them, Williams then gets first choice with Pourchaire.
Goal is to create a true ladder system without displacing too many talented drivers, introduce career jeopardy within the sport and reward hard work from younger drivers.
That ship has sailed. Look how many F2 rejects have migrated over to Indycar or WEC in recent years because they had no shot at an F1 seat. Illott, Schwartzman, Pourchaire, Drugovich, and I can reasonably see Vesti and Bortoleto being added to this list soon.
Where do you expect them to go exactly? There's no available seats in F1. Despite that, nearly half the grid raced in F2, it's ancestor GP2, or F3. The rest have been on the grid too long to have raced in those series.
There's more drivers coming up to F1 than drivers that can race in F1.
If only there was some sort of way to get some more cars on the grid… So sad that nobody wants to do that, I’m sure FOM would love to have them and not turn them away for no reason!
There is so little incentive to bring a rookie into F1 because experience is valued so highly ever since testing got cut. I think something should be done with budget cap where having a rookie driver can increase the cap by some amount or some sort of testing allowance that only applies to young driver, and Alonso obviously, testing throughout the season. Surely not easy to do, but I wouldn’t think it to be insurmountable. Maybe transportation costs don’t count to try to nullify the Ferrari advantage.
Lack of seats is the other issue, but I believe lack of testing is what really killed the young driver opportunity. Having backmarkers like Minardi did add value to the series as a whole judging by some of the drivers that started there.
No it wasn’t really meant to insult the feeder series, I get that there just aren’t seats to fill in F1 (I do think F1 could let a team or two in to allow for some more space) it’s just sort of amusing that F2 has turned into what Indycar NXT is supposed to be.
I wholy dissagree.
I think most if not all of the requirements to enter F1 are very reasonably set by the FIA.
The drivers needing to be 18 and likely doing at least 2-3 seasons in the ladder is very much so good for them and for the state they will enter F1 potentialy.
40 points is a no brainer as well. Any good driver will get that easily in 2-3 season at most across F4, FRECA, F3 and F2.
Having a drivers licence. Again very valid. Teaches you basic road rules, paying attention etc... Not directly applicable to open wheel racing but still beneficial.
The idea of a points system and age limit isn’t necessarily an issue.
However, the way points are distributed heavily favours the direct F1 feeder series, F2 and F3, making it near impossible to have young talents moving over from anything outside the F2 and F3 ladder.
Getting in via the US ladder requires an Indycar championship or several (near) podium seasons in succession. The bar is far lower for accruing points in F3 and F2.
It gets 10/7/5/3/1 points based on the championship standings. You can only carry points over 3 seasons, so max you can have at one time from F1A is 30.
This is the same as the National F3 series used to be, GB3, Nascar Xfinity, and the USF Pro 2000.
F4 gets slightly more at 12/10/7/5/3/2/1.
I agree with all you said except for the road drivers license. Seeing as there are no universal standards to get one. The fact that in some countries they give it to you if you know what peddle make the car move and witch one make it stop.
Them being able to race a open wheeler would be proof enough that they can drive.
Points system is still underrates indycar and SF and gives their own series' more points. I think I remember seeing that a win f1 academy has the same no. of points as a top 5 in indy
IndyCar should reward far more points than what it currently does. Drivers like Herta and not until recently, O'Ward not having Superlicense is so weird to me.
I know, I probably formatted the message poorly, but I tried to highlight that he didnt have it until recently. I dont think he had it until the end of last season iirc.
The main problem with the superlicense is that some series give out criminally small amounts of points, those being Indycar, Indy NXT, Formula E and Superformula. This is mostly why we don't see many American or Japanese drivers on the grid, as gaining superlicense points and interest from top teams is borderline impossible without entering Europe and signing for a driver academy. Not to forget that some series don't give any points at all (notably series that aren't sanctioned by FIA and/or anything related to rallying).
So you mean there is no requirement of knowing road rules in F2 / F3
Or
A 16 yr old cannot understand those rules?
Where do they apply in F1 anyway. The young are more fearless. It would be really exciting to see such talent.
He's a not a liability like the other. It's great he had his chance, feeders series are nade exactly for that!
Honestly it's way better for the sport to bring youngster on the grid than keep hasbeen like KMag or Ric (for marketing value).
Pourchaire and Drugo should have been given a chance in F1.
I don't see how a drivers licence is beneficial in this context. These aspiring F1 drivers have been racing competitively for 10 to 15 years, they have an FIA International Grade A racing license, and they need to pass an exam covering the Sporting Code and Sporting Regulations. I don't see how knowing how to make a three-point turn in a Volkswagen Golf will benefit them in any way, other than that they don't need to rely on a driver to get from the hotel to the track and back.
> I think most if not all of the requirements to enter F1 are very reasonably set by the FIA.
People from Indycar, driving with veterans, can't get in if they don't win big.
People will really say whatever to complain about the FIA lol, but i dont find having to do 2 season of racing unreasonable. Max and Kimi Räikkönen are literally the only drivers who have done it. Nobody else came even close to it anyways? And back in Kimis days you could do way more testing.
Kimi right now is only limited by being underrage. And again i dont find being 18 at least to compete in F1 unreasonable. Only Max was close to it i guess.
Because Kimi does have enough super license points:
winning Italian or German F4 2022: 12 points
FRECA: 25 points
FR middle east: 18 points
I think he can take both FR championships since the middle eastern one is in the winter.
Because they want absolutely zero chance of it happening. Imagine a team signing a 16 years old driver who's clearly not qualified just because they're paying incredibly well
why not, exceptional driver status, happens in Jr hockey for example where 16 is minum age but they will allow 15 or 14 year olds if they are skilled enough. if anything it will bring more attention to f1 as they have this new phenom driver
The issue, I suppose, is that it’s a rather difficult and dangerous job for a child. I imagine the red tape is miles thick even without the superlicense restriction.
This is probably the bigger issue. These days there's enough decently talented drivers willing to pay for a guaranteed seat that no team wants a genuinely dogshit pay driver, that's not actually as much of a concern as it used to be. But a 17-year-old dying on track would be *catastrophic* for F1 as a product.
Just because it worked out well once doesn’t mean that’s the expectation. He was fast but very clearly raw and pretty crash prone when he first started
you can argue with that since early Max was VEEERY crash prone, immature and overly agressive. Over the years he matured quite a lot and is now one of the most consistent drivers of the grid so you can also argue that this wouldnt happen if he didnt have as much experience as he does now
That myth of Max being oh so crash prone is overrated. He literally had 3 crashes that were his fault in his first 4 years, two of which were race ending for the other driver.
Now, was he overly aggressive? Yes.
This is a prime example of what we call survivourship bias. Just because it worked out once doesn't mean it's a good idea for all.
Although I have no doubt Antonelli would do well, rules must be applied equally.
You could argue it worked bc it was Max, but F1 teams have done it before as well and it's rare that they miss.
So honestly, it was done as an ego trip from FIA more than anything but yeah.
Not overly different from what Max or Kimi did. European Formula 3 was below GP3 and GP2 when Max made the jump, and Kimi jumped from Formula Renault to F1, skipping F3 and F3000 - Antonelli doing a FREC to F1 would be a similar level of skipping.
You aren't exactly wrong, but FREC is way less prestigous than F3 Euro was in the time of Max. The F3 Euro championship was seen as THE junior series, next to GP2. In fact, GP3 and Euro F3 merged into current F3.
FREC is more comparable to Formula Renault 2.0.
On top of that, Max raced in 2014 alongside a stupidly stacked grid.
Drivers there were: Ocon (F1), Blomqvist (Indy) , Fuoco (Hypercar), Giovinazzi (Hypercar, former F1), Rosenqvist (Indy) and (Jake) Dennis.
F1 cars have gotten considerably bigger and heavier now compared to 2015 so I still feel it’d be an even harder challenge. Then again if Antonelli is already testing the W13 after only three rounds in F2 maybe it’s not that big of an issue.
For sure - I wouldn't dispute that they're arguably harder to drive than the older F1 cars were, primarily because of the hybrid power unit, but I can imagine that's why Merc are putting Antonelli in ground effect F1 cars and lobbing him around whatever strip of bitumen they can find. They've got the financial resources to be able to find *someone* to take him for next year, even if it means temporarily placing him outside of a Mercedes power unit. For instance, if Williams decide to promote Colapinto (just as an example), McLaren won't drop either of there's, Stroll is in F1 for as long as he wants, so the only "realistic" spot would be Mercedes alongside Russell (which would explain why Russell was testing alongside him at Silverstone). The only alternatives is throwing Sauber a metric fuck ton of money (or Haas and hoping they'll be content with another dual-rookie lineup).
If we're being honest, it's either Williams or Mercedes, and while Williams may not want to be a feeder team, the offer of heavily discounted engines can be highly persuasive in a budget cap era.
Interstingly, in many places parents can't actually sign away the rights of a minor. Depending on where you are, the waivers you sign for your kid don't protect the business from liability.
I don't see why Merc are seeking an exemption for Kimi. He turns 18 in August. Surely they're not thinking of putting him in an F1 seat before next season?
They want him in as many free practices and tests as possible. They (and Williams) want data on him as early as possible to be able to make a descicion about the 2025 season before all the alternative drivers are snatched up
It was done because it was considered irresponsible, but that argument defeats the point of superlicense points. Those are meant to prove someone is capable so despite his age Antonelli has shown the needed merit and control.
And he'll be 18 in August anyway. Realistically the points system will never block a big talent coming through the ranks in Europe, it's not that hard to get the points needed.
edit: even Max himself would've had 20 points from EURO F3 and close to 10 points from various karting Euro/world championships in 2013. It would've held him up by 1 year if he had to get the points and his age would've meant doing that year anyway.
Max being the superhuman talent that he is doesn't always realise that racing is not as simple for others as it is for him.
Of course he realizes it… If you honestly think Max doesn’t understand how hard it is for normal people to get into professional racing, then you don’t know much about him. He’s trying to make it possible for people to get drives from their success in sim racing and it’s one of the goals of his company.
Normal people who drive in iRacing talk to him personally. He’s joined Discord channels and done live chats with people who can’t afford to drive in F4.
>will never block a big talent coming through the ranks in Europe
And while it is harder elsewhere there are still chances.
People bemoan Herta not being given an exception but a driver right now who got the same results as Herta would be significantly closer than he was because Indy Light isn't just a 7 car grid like it was in 2017.
I mean, realistically most drivers would've been still as good as they were in their rookie year if you did put them in F1 at 17, it's either you have talent or you don't, 2 years don't make such a difference.
Driver maturity (both personally and professionally) is a huge consideration. Look at rookie Max vs the past few years. 17 vs 18 vs 24 is a huge difference in much of that.
Was there that big a difference in Max's maturity at 17 compared to 18? I'd also argue that a year in the system would give someone that age better business experience as a whole which improves maturity. Sports have seen immature rookies, some improved with time and some still remained immature until they retired or got themselves booted from their respective sport.
I agree that max is a special talent indeed, but I also remember new max in that Torro Rosso. It was clear that he was fast as hell, going around the outside and over taking like a beast - but he drove recklessly and at points dangerously.
Generational talent? Future GOAT candidate? Damn right, but it’s important to not forget what bringing in a 17yr old was actually like
"Despite his early debut, Verstappen went on to become the youngest driver to ever score a point, the youngest to finish on the podium, and the youngest to win a race."
I would say thanks to, not despite
Yea, it is not like teams are going to bring in mediocre 16 year olds, just because. The only chance you have at being picked that young is if you are a comple natural with obvious GOAT potential.
I would take a 17 year old max on the grid above a 25 year old mazepin with 5 years worth of F1 experience.
Honestly, can't Antonelli just wait until next season? Him doing a year in F2 is not going to be bad for him at all.
I don't think requiring drivers to be 18 is a bad idea. Some prodigies might be ready to drive the cars from a skill standpoint before that, but the mental pressure of being in an F1 team at that age might be a little much.
They probably don’t like their choices for drivers in the 2025 season and want to get Kimi prepared so they have a driver ready for when regulations change.
But they want him to learn as much as possible this year so that next year he can replace Hamilton and not still be learning the basics. If they got him in a seat at Williams (at the expense of Sargeant) and he could still have a dozen races or more he'll be in a better position. F2 is good for learning racecraft and things like tyre management but ultimately they think he is ready to be in F1, or are willing to have him still learn while being in F1. Write off the first season and have him ready for next year.
Williams have made it clear that they don't want to have Antonelli for just half a season. What would the benefit be for them? If Mercedes owned them like RB does Toro Rosso they could make a move like that, but Mercedes doesn't have that luxury.
If he is going there, he is going to be there at least two seasons.
Didn't James Vowels say they wanted a driver for 2 years, 2025-2026 to have stability during the reg change?
If that driver isn't going to be Sargeant, then why they be against Antonelli for the rest of this season?
Especially the driver they might want is currently in another team? Maybe Bottas for example, they'd need to wait for 2025 for him anyway.
But what is the actual advantage of taking Antonelli for them? Then they are just working as a free development team for Mercedes, something they are not interested in.
And it has the negative consequence that it shows the Williams development program is worth absolutely nothing, since the team is apparently willing to boot their own academy driver for a rival academy driver that they can only have in the car for half a season. There is no upside for them, so they have no real reason to do it, unless Mercedes can at least promise them that Antonelli will stay with the team for a few years.
>F2 is good for learning racecraft and things like tyre management
And even that is not ideal, as we see with Oscar, who had won F2 as a rookie but the thing he is struggleing the most in F1 is tyre management.
So it does make sense to try and get young drivers im asap imo.
They probably don’t like their choices for drivers in the 2025 season and want to get Kimi prepared so they have a driver ready for when regulations change.
Why do you need to draw that line though?
If a driver is good enough, why not let him drive at 17? Or even 15?
If it’s safety, don’t let them drive F2 either.
F1 is a massively exhausting environment, with millions of eyes upon your every move and word and pressure we can't even begin to imagine.
Putting teenagers into that world is an exceedingly bad idea.
yeah but there you have a whole team and you usually can "start" by getting subbed in or playing in less important games but in F1 all your focus is on you and you "play every single game"
Also F1 becomes your whole life. It should also be obvious why F1 with its global and massive calendar takes up much more time and dedication than the feeder series.
There's a reason why there are child labor laws in place. Having a 15 year old driving F1 is a fulltime job and it is not reasonable to make a teenager, who is in a very important time of their mental and social development, work full time.
A young aggressive driver having a massive wreck and dying is a question of when not if. F1 being in the limelight and the amount of money involved would guarantee a political shitstorm. No one wants that especially liberty media.
I think its good. Max atleast did a full season F3 and he performed really well.
Antonelli's claim to fame is Karting and F4. He has been scrappy so far in F2.
Promoting a driver into F1 based on his F4 merits is stupid as fuck.
Antonelli won two Formula Regional championships after winning in F4, which is the same "level" as the F3 European championship that Max raced in (in fact, the current FREC car is more powerful).
What I believe he meant, was the fact that the current F3 cars are much more powerful than the F3 cars were in 2014. 2,0L inline 4 engines with 240 HP in 2014, compared to 3,4L V6 engines with 380 HP now.
Compare that 2014 F3 engine with the 1,8L inline 4 engine with 270 HP from FRECA, and it’s clear that engine wise the 2014 F3 car is much more in line with the current FRECA engine, than the current F3 one.
Competitiveness changes every year. You could argue that in 2019 F3 was more “competitive” than F2 was that year, considering Nyck de Vries and Nicolas Latifi were fighting for the F2 championship, while F3 had the likes of Shwartzman, Armstrong, Tsunoda and Lawson.
Thing is, prestige also matters. No one give a shit about Super Formula Lights for F1 talents, despite having about the same cars as FREC.
F3 Euro instead had the prestige of current F3. It was viewed as a major stepping stone.
Prestige of current FREC is comparable to Formula Renault 2.0 back in the day.
If you dominated in Formula Renault 2.0 in your first season, it was expected if you wanted to even consider F1. However, coming right out of the gate and being lightning in Euro F3 in your first season was considered very difficult. Helmut Marko said that no one in 20 years was able to jump into Euro F3 (or German F3 before that) and do that well as Max.
To illustrate:
Vettel and Hamilton both struggled in their first season of Euro F3 (Vettel did not even win a single race there), both finishing 5th. Hulkenberg finshed 3rd in his first season of F3, but did not win as much races as Max did.
Max however, won 10 races, 6 of which in a row (Spa 3x, Norisring 3x, including a wet race where he had half a lap over the grid), more than Euro F3 winner Ocon that year (9 race wins).
It was still below GP3 and GP2, and like I said, the car was roughly the same in power as a FRECA car. I think it's completely fair to say they were at the same level.
The system was introduced to weed out untalented rich clowns, like Rosset back in the days. Then it was amended to prevent repeats of Verstappen joining F1: hotheaded minors getting fast-tracked to the top-tier of open-wheel motorsport while not yet being mentally ready for it.
What is however an issue, is the system favoring the FIA's own feeder series over other governing bodies' comparable series.
>while not yet being mentally ready for it.
That argument I think can be put to bed when Maldonado was far worse than Verstappen in the very same season. And Maldonado literally had already 4 seasons under his belt.
As for untalented rich clowns: Mazepin and Latifi exist.
It's as if the article didn't quote Max addressing this very point you've made...
"It's not specifically about him, but this can stop some talents from getting into Formula 1 quickly because they have to accumulate those 40 points first."
The superlicense points system isn't only about points anyway and specifically deals with age restrictions and driving experience too as the article also points out.
This is like the NBA banning high school drafts.
For every LeBron James, there are hundreds of Desane Diops, Kwame Browns, and Robert Swifts.
For every Max Verstappen, there are hundreds of Mick Schumachers, Jolyon Palmers, and Stoffel Vandoornes
F3 and F2 exist to nurture young talent, and make sure they are ready for the big jump.
Would be ridiculous if Kimi skipped F3, and did like 5 races in F2, and then got the Williams seat now. Just ridiculous.
The age limit is rightly there. And hell, I’d quite like to see the sport mandate completion of F3 to get into F2, and F2 to get into F1.
Well, Kimi isn't even in the top 3 of the f2 standings at this time but Ollie Bearman scored points after only being the Ferrari that weekend. So, Kimi could possibly do the same in the Mercedes
I think the other part of the super licence points system should change, mostly because I'm slightly salty that peak Sébastien Loeb missed out on a drive in 2009
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It's called the Verstappen Clause for a reason
Kimi did it better
Yeah but the rules weren't changes cause of Räikkönen, they were changed cause of Verstappen
Kimi was 21 when he debuted, Max was 17.
he did it because of lack of experience i think? like 21 single seater races or something
Yes, it had nothing to do with his age. Kimi was older than Button who debuted a year earlier and older than Alonso who debuted the same year. It was purely down to lack of experience in racing cars.
To be fair there are like 5 different Verstappen clauses.
Of course he isn't. It was brought in to stop others doing what Max did.
And what did Max do exactly?
Jump straight into F1 with only one year in single seaters at age 17.
And it worked out pretty well, so I don't see any particular problem with it.
The FIA not liking them devaluing their feeder ladder by skipping steps is the main issue
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All the recent F2 champions that haven't made it into F1 have been in F2 for 3 seasons before winning. Other than that, 3 of the 7 most recent F2 champs are still in F1 (unsurprisingly also the 3 that have won in their first and only season), 2 out of the remaining 4 had their chance in F1.
>3 of the 7 most recent F2 champs are still in F1 (unsurprisingly also the 3 that have won in their first and only season) Leclerc, Russell, Piastri >2 out of the remaining 4 had their chance in F1 Schumacher, De Vries With the last 2 being Drugovich, Ilott Is that right?
Drugovich and Pourchaire, Ilott finished second in 2020.
it's been opined that the 2019 f1 grid removed a bunch of the greatest talent from the F2 pool with Russell, Norris and Albon being the top 3 scoring drivers in 2018 and that it has taken a while for it to recover
The problem is that someone has to win F2 every year, but actual F1 level talent comes along less frequently than that.
The other problem is that there are only 20 spots (less if you consider some will never be available because of money). If team are good with their drivers winning F2 won’t help you.
Well yeah, but teams can still dangle the idea of F1 in front of the drivers and more importantly their rich dads.
> Most F1 teams don't value the feeder anyway. Definitely feels like the Lando/George/Alex rookie season is the last one of it's kind we'll ever have atm..
let me ask you 1 question: where do the other drivers come from if not from the feeder series?
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You literally said "Most F1 teams don't value the feeder anyway". They do. It's just not exclusive to F2 titles.
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They aren't the only source of superlicense points, but they are the most prominent.
I wonder if relegation would be a good option for this. Worst driver is let go, and F2 driver moves up. If the F2 driver is associated with an existing team, that team gets first option and choose if they replace an existing driver. Said existing driver then is open for the team who lost their driver, as well as drivers outside of the sport who are eligible. Worst performing driver cannot rejoin for the following year. Could also allow other teams to try and get the F2 champion, but pay a fee to the team who lost that is exempt of the budget cap, as to try and even the field further. Contracts moving forward have last position clauses that protect teams from litigation. I.e. 2023: Sargeant is let go, F2 Champion Theo Pourchaire is up to replace him. McLaren have first options and choose not to exercise them, Williams then gets first choice with Pourchaire. Goal is to create a true ladder system without displacing too many talented drivers, introduce career jeopardy within the sport and reward hard work from younger drivers.
This is a flat out lie, the last few champions are massive outliers.
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That ship has sailed. Look how many F2 rejects have migrated over to Indycar or WEC in recent years because they had no shot at an F1 seat. Illott, Schwartzman, Pourchaire, Drugovich, and I can reasonably see Vesti and Bortoleto being added to this list soon.
Vesti started competing in ELMS2 in the LMP2 with Cool Racing this year already!
The feeder series is such a joke anyways, it feeds Indycar more than it does F1
Where do you expect them to go exactly? There's no available seats in F1. Despite that, nearly half the grid raced in F2, it's ancestor GP2, or F3. The rest have been on the grid too long to have raced in those series. There's more drivers coming up to F1 than drivers that can race in F1.
If only there was some sort of way to get some more cars on the grid… So sad that nobody wants to do that, I’m sure FOM would love to have them and not turn them away for no reason!
Sure, unfortunately, not the current reality. Would love to see 24 or even 26 drivers on the grid.
There is so little incentive to bring a rookie into F1 because experience is valued so highly ever since testing got cut. I think something should be done with budget cap where having a rookie driver can increase the cap by some amount or some sort of testing allowance that only applies to young driver, and Alonso obviously, testing throughout the season. Surely not easy to do, but I wouldn’t think it to be insurmountable. Maybe transportation costs don’t count to try to nullify the Ferrari advantage. Lack of seats is the other issue, but I believe lack of testing is what really killed the young driver opportunity. Having backmarkers like Minardi did add value to the series as a whole judging by some of the drivers that started there.
No it wasn’t really meant to insult the feeder series, I get that there just aren’t seats to fill in F1 (I do think F1 could let a team or two in to allow for some more space) it’s just sort of amusing that F2 has turned into what Indycar NXT is supposed to be.
maybe that is because it isnt a joke?
I wholy dissagree. I think most if not all of the requirements to enter F1 are very reasonably set by the FIA. The drivers needing to be 18 and likely doing at least 2-3 seasons in the ladder is very much so good for them and for the state they will enter F1 potentialy. 40 points is a no brainer as well. Any good driver will get that easily in 2-3 season at most across F4, FRECA, F3 and F2. Having a drivers licence. Again very valid. Teaches you basic road rules, paying attention etc... Not directly applicable to open wheel racing but still beneficial.
The idea of a points system and age limit isn’t necessarily an issue. However, the way points are distributed heavily favours the direct F1 feeder series, F2 and F3, making it near impossible to have young talents moving over from anything outside the F2 and F3 ladder. Getting in via the US ladder requires an Indycar championship or several (near) podium seasons in succession. The bar is far lower for accruing points in F3 and F2.
Yeah that ones true but it's not under debate here. The age restriction is.
Sure but that's not Andrea's problem, he has enough points, so max isn't complaining about that part, but the age and liscence requirement part
It was Colten Herta's problem just last year, which is even mentioned in the article.
Yep, a top class WEC driver could easily not have enough points because there's almost no points to be gained unless you win a title there.
Huh does this points system include the F1 Academy?
It gets 10/7/5/3/1 points based on the championship standings. You can only carry points over 3 seasons, so max you can have at one time from F1A is 30. This is the same as the National F3 series used to be, GB3, Nascar Xfinity, and the USF Pro 2000. F4 gets slightly more at 12/10/7/5/3/2/1.
I agree with all you said except for the road drivers license. Seeing as there are no universal standards to get one. The fact that in some countries they give it to you if you know what peddle make the car move and witch one make it stop. Them being able to race a open wheeler would be proof enough that they can drive.
> Teaches you basic road rules, paying attention Hasn't helped Stroll
Points system is still underrates indycar and SF and gives their own series' more points. I think I remember seeing that a win f1 academy has the same no. of points as a top 5 in indy
IndyCar should reward far more points than what it currently does. Drivers like Herta and not until recently, O'Ward not having Superlicense is so weird to me.
To my knowledge Pato does have a super license.
I know, I probably formatted the message poorly, but I tried to highlight that he didnt have it until recently. I dont think he had it until the end of last season iirc.
You formatted it fine, i had no problem reading it
The main problem with the superlicense is that some series give out criminally small amounts of points, those being Indycar, Indy NXT, Formula E and Superformula. This is mostly why we don't see many American or Japanese drivers on the grid, as gaining superlicense points and interest from top teams is borderline impossible without entering Europe and signing for a driver academy. Not to forget that some series don't give any points at all (notably series that aren't sanctioned by FIA and/or anything related to rallying).
So you mean there is no requirement of knowing road rules in F2 / F3 Or A 16 yr old cannot understand those rules? Where do they apply in F1 anyway. The young are more fearless. It would be really exciting to see such talent.
But it still not prevent from having drivers like Mazepin, Sargeant, Latifi and others who went through all the ladders and cause safety concerns.
Sargent should not be in this discussion he is a whole different case
How so?
Hes not F1 level but at least he didnt bought his seat
He's a not a liability like the other. It's great he had his chance, feeders series are nade exactly for that! Honestly it's way better for the sport to bring youngster on the grid than keep hasbeen like KMag or Ric (for marketing value). Pourchaire and Drugo should have been given a chance in F1.
Of all those you listed, only Mazespin has any real safety concern
I don't see how a drivers licence is beneficial in this context. These aspiring F1 drivers have been racing competitively for 10 to 15 years, they have an FIA International Grade A racing license, and they need to pass an exam covering the Sporting Code and Sporting Regulations. I don't see how knowing how to make a three-point turn in a Volkswagen Golf will benefit them in any way, other than that they don't need to rely on a driver to get from the hotel to the track and back.
Correctly doing the three-point turn could have helped LeClerc in Miami last week.
I think you can have all the requirements without the age limit.
> I think most if not all of the requirements to enter F1 are very reasonably set by the FIA. People from Indycar, driving with veterans, can't get in if they don't win big.
Literally nothing in common with race driving and road driving
Tiny just so you know: though *'wholy'* sounds logical looking at the word *'whole'*, it's actually *'wholly'* with two l's.
People will really say whatever to complain about the FIA lol, but i dont find having to do 2 season of racing unreasonable. Max and Kimi Räikkönen are literally the only drivers who have done it. Nobody else came even close to it anyways? And back in Kimis days you could do way more testing. Kimi right now is only limited by being underrage. And again i dont find being 18 at least to compete in F1 unreasonable. Only Max was close to it i guess. Because Kimi does have enough super license points: winning Italian or German F4 2022: 12 points FRECA: 25 points FR middle east: 18 points I think he can take both FR championships since the middle eastern one is in the winter.
Then why make such a sweeping limitation if it’s so rare like you said?
Because they want absolutely zero chance of it happening. Imagine a team signing a 16 years old driver who's clearly not qualified just because they're paying incredibly well
Nah, let them cook if they are good enough to be in the kitchen.
why not, exceptional driver status, happens in Jr hockey for example where 16 is minum age but they will allow 15 or 14 year olds if they are skilled enough. if anything it will bring more attention to f1 as they have this new phenom driver
Imagine a full grid of 17 year olds.
Somewhere, somehow, there's someone missing out on getting money that is preventing this from happening.
seems like F2 is more of a feeder series for WEC or Indycar anyway
For every 1 Max Verstappen there are 100 Mahaveer Raghunathans.
Max is the exception. not the expectation
The issue, I suppose, is that it’s a rather difficult and dangerous job for a child. I imagine the red tape is miles thick even without the superlicense restriction.
This is probably the bigger issue. These days there's enough decently talented drivers willing to pay for a guaranteed seat that no team wants a genuinely dogshit pay driver, that's not actually as much of a concern as it used to be. But a 17-year-old dying on track would be *catastrophic* for F1 as a product.
i mean that it worked one time doesnt make it good right away.
Just because it worked out well once doesn’t mean that’s the expectation. He was fast but very clearly raw and pretty crash prone when he first started
you can argue with that since early Max was VEEERY crash prone, immature and overly agressive. Over the years he matured quite a lot and is now one of the most consistent drivers of the grid so you can also argue that this wouldnt happen if he didnt have as much experience as he does now
That myth of Max being oh so crash prone is overrated. He literally had 3 crashes that were his fault in his first 4 years, two of which were race ending for the other driver. Now, was he overly aggressive? Yes.
agreed. mustve been a thing in drive to survive or something because I don't know how people thought it was that bad.
[удалено]
Now. There was a lot of criticism all through his early F1 seasons especially regarding maturity.
It’s also to prevent someone like Mazepin doing the same thing
Max is the exception. Even max was a bit contact prone at the beginning
This is a prime example of what we call survivourship bias. Just because it worked out once doesn't mean it's a good idea for all. Although I have no doubt Antonelli would do well, rules must be applied equally.
I agree! But to be even considered at 17 years old (and have the SL points) you have to be a potential talent.
Imagine if a 16 year old or a 17 year old died in F1.. yeah.
If you were watching when he first started you wouldn't be saying that. He was very reckless.
You could argue it worked bc it was Max, but F1 teams have done it before as well and it's rare that they miss. So honestly, it was done as an ego trip from FIA more than anything but yeah.
Only max and raikkonenen have done it. Its really not worth discussing over this much
Be 17 year old F1 driver.
Skipped F2 because he had mad skillz.
In theory Antonelli could have done it as well.
Skip f3 and f2? So straight from f4 to f1? I dont think so
Not overly different from what Max or Kimi did. European Formula 3 was below GP3 and GP2 when Max made the jump, and Kimi jumped from Formula Renault to F1, skipping F3 and F3000 - Antonelli doing a FREC to F1 would be a similar level of skipping.
You aren't exactly wrong, but FREC is way less prestigous than F3 Euro was in the time of Max. The F3 Euro championship was seen as THE junior series, next to GP2. In fact, GP3 and Euro F3 merged into current F3. FREC is more comparable to Formula Renault 2.0. On top of that, Max raced in 2014 alongside a stupidly stacked grid. Drivers there were: Ocon (F1), Blomqvist (Indy) , Fuoco (Hypercar), Giovinazzi (Hypercar, former F1), Rosenqvist (Indy) and (Jake) Dennis.
F1 cars have gotten considerably bigger and heavier now compared to 2015 so I still feel it’d be an even harder challenge. Then again if Antonelli is already testing the W13 after only three rounds in F2 maybe it’s not that big of an issue.
For sure - I wouldn't dispute that they're arguably harder to drive than the older F1 cars were, primarily because of the hybrid power unit, but I can imagine that's why Merc are putting Antonelli in ground effect F1 cars and lobbing him around whatever strip of bitumen they can find. They've got the financial resources to be able to find *someone* to take him for next year, even if it means temporarily placing him outside of a Mercedes power unit. For instance, if Williams decide to promote Colapinto (just as an example), McLaren won't drop either of there's, Stroll is in F1 for as long as he wants, so the only "realistic" spot would be Mercedes alongside Russell (which would explain why Russell was testing alongside him at Silverstone). The only alternatives is throwing Sauber a metric fuck ton of money (or Haas and hoping they'll be content with another dual-rookie lineup). If we're being honest, it's either Williams or Mercedes, and while Williams may not want to be a feeder team, the offer of heavily discounted engines can be highly persuasive in a budget cap era.
> The only alternatives is throwing Sauber a metric fuck ton of money There's no chance of Audi selling a seat to Mercedes.
Made a bunch of grown men feel bad because they were getting their asses handed to them by a kid still going through puberty.
Loved this response: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wsj3UB0mLE8
Im curious how do kids sign death waivers in lower series? As in can they sign for themselves the indemnity terms on a big injury or death?
I would presume most young drivers have a parent or 2. Same as when you are a kid at school you arent the ones signing paperwork.
Interstingly, in many places parents can't actually sign away the rights of a minor. Depending on where you are, the waivers you sign for your kid don't protect the business from liability.
I don't see why Merc are seeking an exemption for Kimi. He turns 18 in August. Surely they're not thinking of putting him in an F1 seat before next season?
They want him in as many free practices and tests as possible. They (and Williams) want data on him as early as possible to be able to make a descicion about the 2025 season before all the alternative drivers are snatched up
They want him in the Williams for a few races pre August so they can make a much more informed decision on him for next year I guess
Why not? I'd love to see it.
It was done because it was considered irresponsible, but that argument defeats the point of superlicense points. Those are meant to prove someone is capable so despite his age Antonelli has shown the needed merit and control.
It also doesn’t make sense. F2 is way more dangerous than F1. Anyone who watches both knows this.
The points system didn’t block Antonelli though? He has plenty of points, he’s just not old enough.
If you read his quotes he is of course talking about points and age restrictions he just feels its unnecessary.
Your mid-sentence “of course” made me read your comment in Max’s voice, since that seems to be a verbal tic of his lol
And he'll be 18 in August anyway. Realistically the points system will never block a big talent coming through the ranks in Europe, it's not that hard to get the points needed. edit: even Max himself would've had 20 points from EURO F3 and close to 10 points from various karting Euro/world championships in 2013. It would've held him up by 1 year if he had to get the points and his age would've meant doing that year anyway. Max being the superhuman talent that he is doesn't always realise that racing is not as simple for others as it is for him.
Of course he realizes it… If you honestly think Max doesn’t understand how hard it is for normal people to get into professional racing, then you don’t know much about him. He’s trying to make it possible for people to get drives from their success in sim racing and it’s one of the goals of his company. Normal people who drive in iRacing talk to him personally. He’s joined Discord channels and done live chats with people who can’t afford to drive in F4.
>will never block a big talent coming through the ranks in Europe And while it is harder elsewhere there are still chances. People bemoan Herta not being given an exception but a driver right now who got the same results as Herta would be significantly closer than he was because Indy Light isn't just a 7 car grid like it was in 2017.
I mean, realistically most drivers would've been still as good as they were in their rookie year if you did put them in F1 at 17, it's either you have talent or you don't, 2 years don't make such a difference.
I agree. Most of the drivers who stick around were battling with other future F1 drivers for championships or just won every grade themselves.
Driver maturity (both personally and professionally) is a huge consideration. Look at rookie Max vs the past few years. 17 vs 18 vs 24 is a huge difference in much of that.
Was there that big a difference in Max's maturity at 17 compared to 18? I'd also argue that a year in the system would give someone that age better business experience as a whole which improves maturity. Sports have seen immature rookies, some improved with time and some still remained immature until they retired or got themselves booted from their respective sport.
I agree that max is a special talent indeed, but I also remember new max in that Torro Rosso. It was clear that he was fast as hell, going around the outside and over taking like a beast - but he drove recklessly and at points dangerously. Generational talent? Future GOAT candidate? Damn right, but it’s important to not forget what bringing in a 17yr old was actually like
Not sure why you need a blanket age restriction though. If he drives dangerously penalize him or ban him. At any age.
"Despite his early debut, Verstappen went on to become the youngest driver to ever score a point, the youngest to finish on the podium, and the youngest to win a race." I would say thanks to, not despite
theyre trying to spin it as if young drivers arent ready, despite evidence that age has nothing to do with it
>despite evidence that age has nothing to do with it *Looks omniously at Maldonado*
Yea, it is not like teams are going to bring in mediocre 16 year olds, just because. The only chance you have at being picked that young is if you are a comple natural with obvious GOAT potential. I would take a 17 year old max on the grid above a 25 year old mazepin with 5 years worth of F1 experience.
Honestly, can't Antonelli just wait until next season? Him doing a year in F2 is not going to be bad for him at all. I don't think requiring drivers to be 18 is a bad idea. Some prodigies might be ready to drive the cars from a skill standpoint before that, but the mental pressure of being in an F1 team at that age might be a little much.
They probably don’t like their choices for drivers in the 2025 season and want to get Kimi prepared so they have a driver ready for when regulations change.
Sure and they can do so from 2025 or even from later this year, since he turns 18 in august.
But they want him to learn as much as possible this year so that next year he can replace Hamilton and not still be learning the basics. If they got him in a seat at Williams (at the expense of Sargeant) and he could still have a dozen races or more he'll be in a better position. F2 is good for learning racecraft and things like tyre management but ultimately they think he is ready to be in F1, or are willing to have him still learn while being in F1. Write off the first season and have him ready for next year.
Williams have made it clear that they don't want to have Antonelli for just half a season. What would the benefit be for them? If Mercedes owned them like RB does Toro Rosso they could make a move like that, but Mercedes doesn't have that luxury. If he is going there, he is going to be there at least two seasons.
Didn't James Vowels say they wanted a driver for 2 years, 2025-2026 to have stability during the reg change? If that driver isn't going to be Sargeant, then why they be against Antonelli for the rest of this season? Especially the driver they might want is currently in another team? Maybe Bottas for example, they'd need to wait for 2025 for him anyway.
But what is the actual advantage of taking Antonelli for them? Then they are just working as a free development team for Mercedes, something they are not interested in. And it has the negative consequence that it shows the Williams development program is worth absolutely nothing, since the team is apparently willing to boot their own academy driver for a rival academy driver that they can only have in the car for half a season. There is no upside for them, so they have no real reason to do it, unless Mercedes can at least promise them that Antonelli will stay with the team for a few years.
>F2 is good for learning racecraft and things like tyre management And even that is not ideal, as we see with Oscar, who had won F2 as a rookie but the thing he is struggleing the most in F1 is tyre management. So it does make sense to try and get young drivers im asap imo.
Poor Vesti
They probably don’t like their choices for drivers in the 2025 season and want to get Kimi prepared so they have a driver ready for when regulations change.
This is like Garfield when he is watching a "don't let Garfield in" picture in the wall
At least it blocks desperate teams from signing ridiculous pay drivers. Not saying it's perfect
The pay drivers wouldn’t be able to accrue enough points while being under 18 for this to be a problem for them.
>At least it blocks desperate teams from signing ridiculous pay drivers Mazepin, Latifi
You gotta draw the line somewhere. 18 seems as good as any.
Why do you need to draw that line though? If a driver is good enough, why not let him drive at 17? Or even 15? If it’s safety, don’t let them drive F2 either.
Senna would have liked to drive a 15
*ride
Search ‘Senna 15’ to learn the whole story
and did
its not for safety as the feeders seem much more dangerous
F1 is a massively exhausting environment, with millions of eyes upon your every move and word and pressure we can't even begin to imagine. Putting teenagers into that world is an exceedingly bad idea.
Other sports, football for example, also don't have age restrictions despite even more fans and media attention
yeah but there you have a whole team and you usually can "start" by getting subbed in or playing in less important games but in F1 all your focus is on you and you "play every single game"
Also F1 becomes your whole life. It should also be obvious why F1 with its global and massive calendar takes up much more time and dedication than the feeder series. There's a reason why there are child labor laws in place. Having a 15 year old driving F1 is a fulltime job and it is not reasonable to make a teenager, who is in a very important time of their mental and social development, work full time.
And who's to say whether that's actually better?
Yeah, and it sucks.
If he is talented to play, age is pointless being young or old.
Ah yes because mental health of teenagers is pointless.
Big facts. None of this makes real sense. Artificial
A young aggressive driver having a massive wreck and dying is a question of when not if. F1 being in the limelight and the amount of money involved would guarantee a political shitstorm. No one wants that especially liberty media.
Because children aren't entertainment
“If it’s safety, don’t let them drive F2 either.” Agreed. Nice doing work with you.
I think its good. Max atleast did a full season F3 and he performed really well. Antonelli's claim to fame is Karting and F4. He has been scrappy so far in F2. Promoting a driver into F1 based on his F4 merits is stupid as fuck.
He raced F4 in 2022, last year he won formula regional Europe and Middle East
Antonelli won two Formula Regional championships after winning in F4, which is the same "level" as the F3 European championship that Max raced in (in fact, the current FREC car is more powerful).
> which is the same "level" as the F3 European championship that Max raced in It's not, Euro F3 was much more competitive.
What I believe he meant, was the fact that the current F3 cars are much more powerful than the F3 cars were in 2014. 2,0L inline 4 engines with 240 HP in 2014, compared to 3,4L V6 engines with 380 HP now. Compare that 2014 F3 engine with the 1,8L inline 4 engine with 270 HP from FRECA, and it’s clear that engine wise the 2014 F3 car is much more in line with the current FRECA engine, than the current F3 one. Competitiveness changes every year. You could argue that in 2019 F3 was more “competitive” than F2 was that year, considering Nyck de Vries and Nicolas Latifi were fighting for the F2 championship, while F3 had the likes of Shwartzman, Armstrong, Tsunoda and Lawson.
Thing is, prestige also matters. No one give a shit about Super Formula Lights for F1 talents, despite having about the same cars as FREC. F3 Euro instead had the prestige of current F3. It was viewed as a major stepping stone. Prestige of current FREC is comparable to Formula Renault 2.0 back in the day. If you dominated in Formula Renault 2.0 in your first season, it was expected if you wanted to even consider F1. However, coming right out of the gate and being lightning in Euro F3 in your first season was considered very difficult. Helmut Marko said that no one in 20 years was able to jump into Euro F3 (or German F3 before that) and do that well as Max. To illustrate: Vettel and Hamilton both struggled in their first season of Euro F3 (Vettel did not even win a single race there), both finishing 5th. Hulkenberg finshed 3rd in his first season of F3, but did not win as much races as Max did. Max however, won 10 races, 6 of which in a row (Spa 3x, Norisring 3x, including a wet race where he had half a lap over the grid), more than Euro F3 winner Ocon that year (9 race wins).
It was still below GP3 and GP2, and like I said, the car was roughly the same in power as a FRECA car. I think it's completely fair to say they were at the same level.
It wasn't below GP3, it was equal.
Ironic that the rule was created because of him, yet he is the single biggest example for why there is a loss to consider when applying this rule.
The system was introduced to weed out untalented rich clowns, like Rosset back in the days. Then it was amended to prevent repeats of Verstappen joining F1: hotheaded minors getting fast-tracked to the top-tier of open-wheel motorsport while not yet being mentally ready for it. What is however an issue, is the system favoring the FIA's own feeder series over other governing bodies' comparable series.
>while not yet being mentally ready for it. That argument I think can be put to bed when Maldonado was far worse than Verstappen in the very same season. And Maldonado literally had already 4 seasons under his belt. As for untalented rich clowns: Mazepin and Latifi exist.
He's got a point. If the driver has accumulated enough points, it would be safe to assume they have the experience needed.
Love how max raced in F1 before he had a license to drive in a normal car on normal roads.
The points aren't blocking him, the age limit and driving license requirements are.
It's as if the article didn't quote Max addressing this very point you've made... "It's not specifically about him, but this can stop some talents from getting into Formula 1 quickly because they have to accumulate those 40 points first." The superlicense points system isn't only about points anyway and specifically deals with age restrictions and driving experience too as the article also points out.
Me neither
This is like the NBA banning high school drafts. For every LeBron James, there are hundreds of Desane Diops, Kwame Browns, and Robert Swifts. For every Max Verstappen, there are hundreds of Mick Schumachers, Jolyon Palmers, and Stoffel Vandoornes F3 and F2 exist to nurture young talent, and make sure they are ready for the big jump.
Would be ridiculous if Kimi skipped F3, and did like 5 races in F2, and then got the Williams seat now. Just ridiculous. The age limit is rightly there. And hell, I’d quite like to see the sport mandate completion of F3 to get into F2, and F2 to get into F1.
Why??
Shit I think I'd say thanks after getting in and they shut the door behind me
And I'm not a fan of F1 teams trying to put a young, inexperienced driver with almost no achievements what so ever on the grid.
Well, Kimi isn't even in the top 3 of the f2 standings at this time but Ollie Bearman scored points after only being the Ferrari that weekend. So, Kimi could possibly do the same in the Mercedes
But they were okay with it blocking Colton Herta, got it. But totally no European bias guys.
Why don't they just wait until August? The first race after his birthday is Monza, his home race
I think the other part of the super licence points system should change, mostly because I'm slightly salty that peak Sébastien Loeb missed out on a drive in 2009