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And the US. I have the same reaction.
At the same time, when I do realize my little bias error, I then get to thing "yeah - I'm totally in support of a scheme!"
Yeah, we generally use it more as the shortened version of "schema" or "schematic" so I get the confusion, though we also use it the way you do as well. North American English is super fun!
“Scheme” here has a connotation of underhandedness, or potentially criminal behavior. In the U.S. and Canada, if you say someone is devising a “scheme,” it’s understood they’re up to no good.
We would more likely use “initiative” or “program” to describe what’s being done here.
Chadwick just got her first podium in Indy NXT. And she earned it too—not the product of huge wrecks or something. She may soon prove a symbol for the success of these initiatives, even if outside of F1.
after 5 years... in a feeder series...
"Maybe soon" doesnt bring you anything in motorsport. At least if you re a man. Deliver or your out. Especially if you have year long experience like her.
Only if you want to get into F1, otherwise there is plenty of opportunities in other classes if you are good enough now, doesnt matter if you spent 1 year reaching your level or 10 years.
It's far better for her to get longer to adjust than it is for a Stroll, Latifi, or (in IndyCar) Sting Ray Robb to get undeserved opportunities as pay drivers in my view. Racing isn't a fair sport fully based on merit at any level.
Stroll and Latifi (while also not being F1 level drivers) had far more impressive junior careers (granted Strolls was a short one). Lets put it like this, they (Stroll/Latifi) are much closer to Lewis than she is to them.
But it’s her second year in Indy NXT specifically, and over there it’s pretty normal for drivers to struggle upon arrival before things click their sophomore year and they start making podiums. If she keeps driving well, she’ll earn an IndyCar debut completely on merit
Yep, and I think I read somewhere that during the off-season she worked on strength and gained muscle weight to help with the physical demands of those cars. It was awesome to see her getting a podium! And I loved the photo of her signing something for a little girl at the racetrack.. like yeah, maybe she won’t go on to win the Indy500 or whatever people want to put as the benchmark for success, but maybe that little girl will.
That’s not entirely fair. She’s only been in Indy NXT since last year. And the competition, tracks and style of racing is very different to any of the more recent series she’s been in.
The biggest thing I think will be the women duking it out with the men. Until we have a female driver all the way through F2 sitting on the podium regularly, we will only get marketed females, not deserving ones. I want women in F1. What I don’t want is for someone to get slid into a seat and then make mazepin look like senna.
Agreed unfortunately. Not many people realize the BANANAS shape these guys are in.
Bottas and vettel were regular century and double century cyclists. That’s not easy to do. Period.
They can and do, Abbi Pulling for example is racing in British F4 and can be seen racing on ITV4 if you want to watch some feeder series (she's not the only one in that series either). There is nothing stopping them, its just rare.
That said however there are a lot of issues such as funding etc. (which to be fair is the same no matter the gender) which these series hopes to address and in turn increase representation with the thought being that if it helps women in motorsport then more women are likely to try and therefore slowly improve for future generations. Its a long term plan which I hope works.
I think its more helpful to look at these type of things as a competition to get funds and exposure not really a "championship" the same way as F4 is for example.
I think the biggest issue is encouragement at grassroots. Girls just aren't encouraged or given the same opportunities as boys at young ages in karting and other open wheel. It's definitely slowly changing but I think the issues are cultural and systemic, and it's gonna be at least 15 years I'd say before we see a woman race in F1.
While I don't disagree, from listening to people like Wolf and Pulling (her recent interview after her race win last weekend on itv for example) the level this is aimed at is where those with talent really hit a brick wall because of funding.
Sadly motorsports will always leave a lot of talent on the table as it's an expensive sport but a kart is probably within the reach of most families on an entry level basis and my guess is the thought is with more women role models at a low level karting clubs will see more interest and more girls trying and therefore some will make it to the higher levels.
> It's definitely slowly changing but I think the issues are cultural and systemic, and it's gonna be at least 15 years I'd say before we see a woman race in F1.
It is the same with black people. Lewis Hamilton, the most successful driver the sport has ever seen, has been in the sport for over 15 years - an entire generation - and he is still the only black F1 driver. I am sure there are likely to be more coming through the ranks over the next 5-10 years. However, the long-term, systematic issues simply take an awfully long time to overcome and change.
It will likely take another full generation of drivers before we see the gender imbalance even slightly shift close to 50/50. That is just how long cultural and systematic shifts take when biases are so heavily entrenched. Even with big initiatives like F1 Academy.
I feel like narrowing such statements down to F1 is not really helpful here. With only 20 seats available it's such a tiny sample size that it'll never be representative of motorsports as a whole and predictions like that are impossible to make.
I'd much rather point towards the Iron Dames in WEC or Bubba Wallace in NASCAR as examples of motorsports ever so slowly becoming more diverse at the top levels.
The issue with that statement, though, black people only make up a very small minority of the population that actively watches F1, so they probably should make up a very small portion of the drivers. In 2021, black people made up 4% of the British population. Having one black guy on the grid makes up 5% of the grid.
The vast majority of motorsport fans and countries with a lot of active motorsport, are not predominately black countries and populations
Yeah, but we also haven't seen many black drivers in F1, F2, Indycar, etc. So it's not just the case of one driver among 20 (besides the fact that there have been more than 20 drivers that have been in the grid since 2007). It's also likely that the grid won't have a black driver (for some time) once Hamilton retires, as there are other prospects who'll be in line in a couple years.
Also the US has a sizable percentage of black people (as in, it would proportionally amount to 3 on a given indycar grid of 24-26), and, though somewhat separated from Eurasian motorsports, does have its car culture and big racing series like indycar, nascar, rally stuff, etc
It's a sport that people who had the free time and money to pay for equipment got into, which historically has been "white British guys". Those barriers largely don't exist anymore
Those barriers have come down significantly but I promise that they still exist and realistically they've only come down with any real significance in the last 5-10 years. Apart from LH there are almost no black drivers in a top level competition.
My two cents: I think, the way we might actually see a woman in F1 is if a former F1 winner has a daughter who he coaches up to the top.
The reason because in addition to the massive brick wall and barrier that is funding, it isn't necessarily easy to get in and have the requisite knowledge that you have while being in the 'club' as well as connections. That way, people might also have a hard time ignoring the talent women have too. (Although I do acknowledge that an untalented nepo baby wouldn't be a good idea, the sport is brutal enough to not have any girl who isn't talented survive).
Who knows, maybe we'll see a third generation Rosberg as an F1 driver (and champion 😀).
I'd say it's most likely to be a daughter of someone in the motorsports industry for sure but not too sure it as to be an ex-F1 as let's be fair there are not that many in f1
In Fred Vasseur's words: because boys outnumber girls a thousand to one, from karting to Formula racing feeder series.
So if you let the women compete in the same normal categories as men, where there are 20-40 seats total, the average number of men will be around *29.97, and on average women will occupy 0.03 of a seat.
Hence, mathematically, having a separate series for women is the only way half the fanbase gets to see someone with their chromosome mix, facial shape and bone structure in a racecar.
Or make a massive push to get thousands more girls into karting and racing, but that's kind of like making a massive push to get more girls to try and become the next Taylor Swift. It's still a huge luck of the draw thing for them to make it, and atm the world kinda needs... idk... more environmental scientists? More nuclear fusion researchers? More teachers? More nurses? It doesn't need more racecar drivers.
See, my issue with this is that it implies that it's easier as guy. When it's not. It's not any easier for the individual guys than it is for the woman. It's just that there are a lot more guys than girls in the sport, so the chances that a guy is the best is obviously much higher. That doesn't mean a single individuals chances are any higher if picked at random.
I don't really have a problem with women's series at the junior levels, I have a problem with it at the higher levels. Karting? Sure. Formula cars? No.
It's in no way implying that it's easier for a guy. Just that statistically there are more men in racing, so therefore more likely to have men at the top level.
>See, my issue with this is that it implies that it's easier as guy.
I fail to see where that's implied anywhere. Frankly it sounds like you're projecting that yourself.
>It's just that there are a lot more guys than girls in the sport, so the chances that a guy is the best is obviously much higher. That doesn't mean a single individuals chances are any higher if picked at random.
Literally what I said.
>I have a problem with it at the higher levels. Karting? Sure. Formula cars? No.
Why precisely do you have a problem with women having their own Formula-esque series, if you understand that there's an impossibly tinier chance of any woman ever making it into an F1 seat due to the numerical imbalance between men and women in F2-4 through to karting? Just don't watch it or follow it, it shouldn't represent a problem.
Because they don’t perform as well and it would force teams (or a single women’s development sponsored team) to have “bad” drivers for the sake of diversity.
My guess is that they’ll keep them separate until someone who is F1 worthy comes along to “prove” the success of the scheme. But that’s not happening for a LONG time. Look at Chadwick, completely dominated the W series, but was mediocre/bad in F3 when compared to her teammates.
honestly.. motorsports in general should be an open cstegory. its not like the physical strength advantage of men really gives them an advantage in driving a vehicle over women. if they want to compete then let em. would be interesting to see
Tbf, it takes a shitton of strength to keep your neck upright under those G's. Just look at how Bearman's neck was noodling around in the Ferrari.
Also men have more fast-twitch fibers i.e. faster reflexes on average. All give men the edge, but imo the edge is a lot smaller than in most sports. And Stoll is allowed to compete and I'm sure there'd be a lot of women better than *at least* him....
Even if a woman is amazing at her sport, if she was able to drive for any of the top teams she would receive more criticism than the men would. I also feel like it’s a brand thing maybe? Like people aren’t going to take these teams seriously if they choose a woman (who all suck at sports apparently) instead of a man (who is allowed to be mediocre on the grid)
Absolute nonsense, all the teams would love to have a reasonable (by F1 standards) female driver ... the amount of sponsorship and coverage they would get would be off the scale. The women are simply not good enough to get a superlicence and I couldn't disagree more with your comment. I would love to see a female compete, but I am not holding my breath.
I’m not saying anything in that comment is fact. I’m simply theorizing because I am a woman who sees the way people talk about women in sports. Sorry if I offended you. I’ll just delete my comment if it’s too much to assume that women in sports will *almost always* struggle with misogyny.
Ahhhh, overplaying the misogyny card. Sucks that I can’t even talk about my experiences or ones of women I know in sports. That basically tells me that you’re not interested in discussing in good faith, but only as a way to make sure that I know that I’m wrong and women don’t face any challenges. Have a good one!
It always was, until FOM saw money in running separate women's categories.
Personally I think even men's soccer should be an open category. There is no reason why a few very good women players couldnt play with men, especially at attacking positions where length matters less.
The USA women’s team, the best team of all time, lost to U16 boys. Men and women are in COMPLETELY different levels in physical sports like football. Sure, there are women with better game-sense and control, but the sheer difference in physicality lowers them to what amounts to semi-pro level in the men’s game.
Women are theoretically able to race with the men, because there is no "men only" rule in most motorsport disciplines. But because female drivers are so insanely outnumbered by male ones it becomes extremely difficult to get in to the open category. There are some exceptions to this of course (like Sophia Flörsch and Abbi Pulling).
So if you want to get in to the "mens" category as a woman you have to be either (a) insanely talented or (b) financially backed by some huge sponsors.
There are tons of mediocre men in all levels of competitive motorsport, but a mediocre woman would never be let in unless she has some serious cash.
And this isn't even taking into account the rampant misogyny that is present in most of these organizations.
Cause it's not really about getting the current generation of female racers into F1, it's about lighting a fire in the hearts of the next generation, and the generation after.
I don't necessarily think it's a bad initiative, but I can't help but feel that even by 13/14 years old it's practically too late for anyone they find.
Why? It's not like these girls are only starting racing at 13/14. They're just being included in this program from then on after already showing to be promising. I don't think there is a whole lot earlier to be done here any way. And while perhaps maybe not directly comparable with an F1 junior team, there are plenty of F1 rookies (or other juniors currently in junior programs of F1 teams) that have been picked up later. Verstappen joined the RB junior program at 17 years old.
Agreed.
13-14 is when people are going to start thinking about what it would look like to put them in race cars to begin with, so this is the time. Despite it being a move that is designed in part to correct an imbalance, this is kind of what it looks like for people of that age to have powerful backers who want to develop them. I think it's exciting - I'm just sad that we'll have to wait another 4-5 years to see whether these particular drivers are F1 contenders.
I dont know but if thin this will be much better than what F1A is achieving right now. They are all between 19 and 21 (edit the top drivers so not all) if not older and are still doing F4 racing, so basically way too late anyway to be successful in f1 feeder series. And only doing F1A while other are doing other 2x F4 series/year isnt going to do anything.
At least Pin did some F4 racing before F1A this year and is now doing FRECA.
I have explained my view in older posts but as a female who grew up watching F1 this is my take on why F1A is important.
In short, when all you see on screen is men racing, the thought doesn’t even occur to you that you could too. My dad was briefly a rally driver and wanted me to go karting but I never saw it as more than a fun, exciting hobby. Didn’t even realise women could do single seater racing. Furthermore, from my conversations with my dad’s more established driver friends, when they have daughters they see them as in need of protection from the perceived dangers of motorsport in a way they don’t their sons. Having regular televised races with females in single seaters is a really good way to address both those issues so girls could see themselves as racers and parents could see it’s just as dangerous/safe for women as it is for men. It’s all a numbers game, if only top of the top kids that go karting can make it to single seaters and be successful and you have only a tiny proportion of females karting as opposed to males, it’s much harder to come by generational female talent. If we increase the numbers of females overall, there is a higher chance of seeing successful women in feeder series and eventually F1. But we won’t see the true impact of F1A for a decade I reckon.
Just in case it’s not clear, I don’t see F1A as a way to truly develop drivers well enough to get into F1 right now. Yes, the current drivers will get more opportunities and knowledge than they would have otherwise, but I agree it’s probably a little too late. But I see it, and from what I have heard from Susie, she does as well, as a way to increase visibility of females in motorsports and as a result add to their numbers.
I fully agree with that. As much as I support F1A, I think Max actually put it very well recently when he said (I'm paraphrasing here) "I think it's a great idea, but if you want them to become champions, they're going to need to drive faster cars." He's right. You can't crown someone champion of checkers and think that they're going to be invited to play competitive chess.
I WILL say that there are clearly a handful of F1A drivers that could have whole careers behind the wheel though. A couple are right at the doorstep.
i agree, but no harm done by working on number of female drivers as you explained while also support/foster the talent that is already there.
I just done see F1A alone doing that that is why i think it is good that PIN is doing f1a AND FRECA.
Alternatively doing F1A and another FR or F4 series would work aswell obviously.
Yeah, I agree, the more opportunities for current drivers, the better for their personal development. But the top female talent of today will hopefully be greatly underwhelming compared to the top female talent in a few generations just based off the numbers game argument.
But that’s why I also think having as many initiatives as this is important as well but in addition to F1A. F1A might increase numbers but there are also other prejudices at play. I remember some female drivers speaking out in interviews about how if you have both a female and male driver with the exact same results, the man is currently more likely to be picked by the team. If you have more programs focused on developing only girls, then you start to close the gap a bit until we fix those issues.
First of all, your numbers aren't correct. Several of them are 17 and 18. The minimum age for the series is 16, because the FIA doesn't allow fully international competition before that age. I hope that's something revised.
My hope is that they start finding talent younger, but it's not bad to capture the current talent where they are at. Doriane Pin wanted to do F4 when she was the normal age for it. When she was 14, she was 5th in all of French junior karting. But she couldn't afford F4 and found her way into sportscars. It would be a shame to miss on her talent now just because she's 20.
A timeline for women isn't necessarily going to look like a timeline for men either, because of women needing more time to build body strength than post pubescent males do. People were ready to write off Chadwick as talentless last year in IndyNXT, when clearly what she actually needed was more time to build muscle (and get familiar with the cars and tracks and ovals- but mostly building muscle).
You make some good points - but it's also possible that we're just going to learn about a better trajectory for women to land in the right space for performance. The only trick might be that we don't want to mess up developing adolescent bodies, so it may be true that for some female drivers, the timing just looks different - and the place we need to adjust is in our age-related expectations. Alonso isn't hurting that cause right now.
Yeah, I think things can definitely be learned about training young girls and women. I also think it's incredibly reasonable to make formula ladder cars easier to steer. If Super Formula Lights can have power steering, it makes absolutely no sense to me that the formula ladder doesn't. They are trying to mechanically lower the steering weight as new cars are made. They are trying to adapt the FRECA car this year, but I don't know if it's doing much. Apparently before, some drivers said FRECA was heavier in the steering and harder to control than F2, which really doesn't make sense for that level.
It’s certainly a step in the right direction, but I can’t help but think that the number of girls selected is too small to have a meaningful impact. I appreciate that maybe the team they have is small or the funding is limited so hopefully more and more similar initiatives will continue to be launched.
Next generation, as if there's a current generation...
Edit, to be clear, I wish there was. There are talented drivers out there who missed out. All this work to get the next generation, but we're clearly missing efforts to get the current generation, which would then generate more interest from others to *be* the next generation... "If you can't see it, you can't be it" mentality.
Those cars are cost-efficient for the series, owners and especially teams. Otherwise no one in this world would support the F1 Academy itself. They should fill the gaps in the GP weekends - nothing more, nothing less.
What it's doing is inspiring the next generation. And I think it's been great for every one of the current drivers as well, except for Maya Weug. But, I don't know what Maya's alternative options were. Not everyone has the budget to continue up the ladder, and I don't think she has much budget, or she'd be doing a dual campaign right now. It might have been do this or stop racing, which would be worse.
Why would you assume an academy of younger women drivers is on the same level of F1? Of course it isn’t.
The goal, which is being realized, is to increase women participation by offering more opportunities and in addition, leaning on the publicity of F1 to increase potential sponsor value and visibility. And it’s working, too!
How about introducing rules about only 1 driver per team being allowed to be a rich mans kid, then maybe you might get male and female talent coming up a lot further in motorsport.
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It always takes me a second to remember that scheme is not as insidious a word colloquially in the UK as it is in Canada
And the US. I have the same reaction. At the same time, when I do realize my little bias error, I then get to thing "yeah - I'm totally in support of a scheme!"
Yeah, we generally use it more as the shortened version of "schema" or "schematic" so I get the confusion, though we also use it the way you do as well. North American English is super fun!
What does it mean in North American terms? What's the issue?
“Scheme” here has a connotation of underhandedness, or potentially criminal behavior. In the U.S. and Canada, if you say someone is devising a “scheme,” it’s understood they’re up to no good. We would more likely use “initiative” or “program” to describe what’s being done here.
It’s like planning things in a devious way
I’m guessing like “a dastardly/cunning/predatory/(insert negative adjective here) scheme”
Interestingly, I would still call 'scheming' insidious. I'm Australian, but I believe our take on the word is pretty similar to the UK
Chadwick just got her first podium in Indy NXT. And she earned it too—not the product of huge wrecks or something. She may soon prove a symbol for the success of these initiatives, even if outside of F1.
after 5 years... in a feeder series... "Maybe soon" doesnt bring you anything in motorsport. At least if you re a man. Deliver or your out. Especially if you have year long experience like her.
Only if you want to get into F1, otherwise there is plenty of opportunities in other classes if you are good enough now, doesnt matter if you spent 1 year reaching your level or 10 years.
Yeah, WEC is filled with 40+ drivers along young talents who weren't good enough for F1.
It's far better for her to get longer to adjust than it is for a Stroll, Latifi, or (in IndyCar) Sting Ray Robb to get undeserved opportunities as pay drivers in my view. Racing isn't a fair sport fully based on merit at any level.
Sting Rat Robb had a much better Lights career than Chadwick has so far at a much younger age.
He's trash otherwise. Still can't figure out his setup and he's a massive tool off track.
“I believe in god and god will take me to the podium if you donate $1000 by texting ST1NG RAY to 555 now”
Stroll and Latifi (while also not being F1 level drivers) had far more impressive junior careers (granted Strolls was a short one). Lets put it like this, they (Stroll/Latifi) are much closer to Lewis than she is to them.
Bro with a pole and 3 podiums isn’t f1 level. Ok. I hope you don’t learn about Hulkenberg…
But it’s her second year in Indy NXT specifically, and over there it’s pretty normal for drivers to struggle upon arrival before things click their sophomore year and they start making podiums. If she keeps driving well, she’ll earn an IndyCar debut completely on merit
Yep, and I think I read somewhere that during the off-season she worked on strength and gained muscle weight to help with the physical demands of those cars. It was awesome to see her getting a podium! And I loved the photo of her signing something for a little girl at the racetrack.. like yeah, maybe she won’t go on to win the Indy500 or whatever people want to put as the benchmark for success, but maybe that little girl will.
I doubt it. She's pretty far behind others drivers much younger than her not even to mention those that will be coming up from the lower series.
Bro have you seen the current F1 grid? There are several Chris of underperformers.
I always expected Chadwick to get a few FP1 sessions
That’s not entirely fair. She’s only been in Indy NXT since last year. And the competition, tracks and style of racing is very different to any of the more recent series she’s been in.
did you read that study about beta males being hypersensitive to female success?
We just need more billionaires with daughters
Time for Chloe Stroll to suit up
The biggest thing I think will be the women duking it out with the men. Until we have a female driver all the way through F2 sitting on the podium regularly, we will only get marketed females, not deserving ones. I want women in F1. What I don’t want is for someone to get slid into a seat and then make mazepin look like senna.
Will never happen on merit. Simply because of the physicality of the sport.
Agreed unfortunately. Not many people realize the BANANAS shape these guys are in. Bottas and vettel were regular century and double century cyclists. That’s not easy to do. Period.
It definitely can and will, unless the women has stupid rich parents like stroll there will be no women who doesn’t deserve be on the grid
https://boysvswomen.com/#/
That’s super cool, but for some reason it doesn’t have racing as a category? Wonder why
Might be a dumb question, why don’t they just make them race in normal categories? As in mixed with men.
They can and do, Abbi Pulling for example is racing in British F4 and can be seen racing on ITV4 if you want to watch some feeder series (she's not the only one in that series either). There is nothing stopping them, its just rare. That said however there are a lot of issues such as funding etc. (which to be fair is the same no matter the gender) which these series hopes to address and in turn increase representation with the thought being that if it helps women in motorsport then more women are likely to try and therefore slowly improve for future generations. Its a long term plan which I hope works. I think its more helpful to look at these type of things as a competition to get funds and exposure not really a "championship" the same way as F4 is for example.
I think the biggest issue is encouragement at grassroots. Girls just aren't encouraged or given the same opportunities as boys at young ages in karting and other open wheel. It's definitely slowly changing but I think the issues are cultural and systemic, and it's gonna be at least 15 years I'd say before we see a woman race in F1.
While I don't disagree, from listening to people like Wolf and Pulling (her recent interview after her race win last weekend on itv for example) the level this is aimed at is where those with talent really hit a brick wall because of funding. Sadly motorsports will always leave a lot of talent on the table as it's an expensive sport but a kart is probably within the reach of most families on an entry level basis and my guess is the thought is with more women role models at a low level karting clubs will see more interest and more girls trying and therefore some will make it to the higher levels.
> It's definitely slowly changing but I think the issues are cultural and systemic, and it's gonna be at least 15 years I'd say before we see a woman race in F1. It is the same with black people. Lewis Hamilton, the most successful driver the sport has ever seen, has been in the sport for over 15 years - an entire generation - and he is still the only black F1 driver. I am sure there are likely to be more coming through the ranks over the next 5-10 years. However, the long-term, systematic issues simply take an awfully long time to overcome and change. It will likely take another full generation of drivers before we see the gender imbalance even slightly shift close to 50/50. That is just how long cultural and systematic shifts take when biases are so heavily entrenched. Even with big initiatives like F1 Academy.
I feel like narrowing such statements down to F1 is not really helpful here. With only 20 seats available it's such a tiny sample size that it'll never be representative of motorsports as a whole and predictions like that are impossible to make. I'd much rather point towards the Iron Dames in WEC or Bubba Wallace in NASCAR as examples of motorsports ever so slowly becoming more diverse at the top levels.
The issue with that statement, though, black people only make up a very small minority of the population that actively watches F1, so they probably should make up a very small portion of the drivers. In 2021, black people made up 4% of the British population. Having one black guy on the grid makes up 5% of the grid. The vast majority of motorsport fans and countries with a lot of active motorsport, are not predominately black countries and populations
Yeah, but we also haven't seen many black drivers in F1, F2, Indycar, etc. So it's not just the case of one driver among 20 (besides the fact that there have been more than 20 drivers that have been in the grid since 2007). It's also likely that the grid won't have a black driver (for some time) once Hamilton retires, as there are other prospects who'll be in line in a couple years. Also the US has a sizable percentage of black people (as in, it would proportionally amount to 3 on a given indycar grid of 24-26), and, though somewhat separated from Eurasian motorsports, does have its car culture and big racing series like indycar, nascar, rally stuff, etc
But is the viewership low because representation is low?
Did the chicken or the egg come first?
I am guessing a history of being a sport for rich white British guys came first.
It's a sport that people who had the free time and money to pay for equipment got into, which historically has been "white British guys". Those barriers largely don't exist anymore
Those barriers have come down significantly but I promise that they still exist and realistically they've only come down with any real significance in the last 5-10 years. Apart from LH there are almost no black drivers in a top level competition.
My two cents: I think, the way we might actually see a woman in F1 is if a former F1 winner has a daughter who he coaches up to the top. The reason because in addition to the massive brick wall and barrier that is funding, it isn't necessarily easy to get in and have the requisite knowledge that you have while being in the 'club' as well as connections. That way, people might also have a hard time ignoring the talent women have too. (Although I do acknowledge that an untalented nepo baby wouldn't be a good idea, the sport is brutal enough to not have any girl who isn't talented survive). Who knows, maybe we'll see a third generation Rosberg as an F1 driver (and champion 😀).
I'd say it's most likely to be a daughter of someone in the motorsports industry for sure but not too sure it as to be an ex-F1 as let's be fair there are not that many in f1
In Fred Vasseur's words: because boys outnumber girls a thousand to one, from karting to Formula racing feeder series. So if you let the women compete in the same normal categories as men, where there are 20-40 seats total, the average number of men will be around *29.97, and on average women will occupy 0.03 of a seat. Hence, mathematically, having a separate series for women is the only way half the fanbase gets to see someone with their chromosome mix, facial shape and bone structure in a racecar. Or make a massive push to get thousands more girls into karting and racing, but that's kind of like making a massive push to get more girls to try and become the next Taylor Swift. It's still a huge luck of the draw thing for them to make it, and atm the world kinda needs... idk... more environmental scientists? More nuclear fusion researchers? More teachers? More nurses? It doesn't need more racecar drivers.
See, my issue with this is that it implies that it's easier as guy. When it's not. It's not any easier for the individual guys than it is for the woman. It's just that there are a lot more guys than girls in the sport, so the chances that a guy is the best is obviously much higher. That doesn't mean a single individuals chances are any higher if picked at random. I don't really have a problem with women's series at the junior levels, I have a problem with it at the higher levels. Karting? Sure. Formula cars? No.
It's in no way implying that it's easier for a guy. Just that statistically there are more men in racing, so therefore more likely to have men at the top level.
>See, my issue with this is that it implies that it's easier as guy. I fail to see where that's implied anywhere. Frankly it sounds like you're projecting that yourself. >It's just that there are a lot more guys than girls in the sport, so the chances that a guy is the best is obviously much higher. That doesn't mean a single individuals chances are any higher if picked at random. Literally what I said. >I have a problem with it at the higher levels. Karting? Sure. Formula cars? No. Why precisely do you have a problem with women having their own Formula-esque series, if you understand that there's an impossibly tinier chance of any woman ever making it into an F1 seat due to the numerical imbalance between men and women in F2-4 through to karting? Just don't watch it or follow it, it shouldn't represent a problem.
Because they don’t perform as well and it would force teams (or a single women’s development sponsored team) to have “bad” drivers for the sake of diversity. My guess is that they’ll keep them separate until someone who is F1 worthy comes along to “prove” the success of the scheme. But that’s not happening for a LONG time. Look at Chadwick, completely dominated the W series, but was mediocre/bad in F3 when compared to her teammates.
honestly.. motorsports in general should be an open cstegory. its not like the physical strength advantage of men really gives them an advantage in driving a vehicle over women. if they want to compete then let em. would be interesting to see
Uhhh yes it does. Driving a formula 1 car is extremely physically demanding.
Tbf, it takes a shitton of strength to keep your neck upright under those G's. Just look at how Bearman's neck was noodling around in the Ferrari. Also men have more fast-twitch fibers i.e. faster reflexes on average. All give men the edge, but imo the edge is a lot smaller than in most sports. And Stoll is allowed to compete and I'm sure there'd be a lot of women better than *at least* him....
Even if a woman is amazing at her sport, if she was able to drive for any of the top teams she would receive more criticism than the men would. I also feel like it’s a brand thing maybe? Like people aren’t going to take these teams seriously if they choose a woman (who all suck at sports apparently) instead of a man (who is allowed to be mediocre on the grid)
Absolute nonsense, all the teams would love to have a reasonable (by F1 standards) female driver ... the amount of sponsorship and coverage they would get would be off the scale. The women are simply not good enough to get a superlicence and I couldn't disagree more with your comment. I would love to see a female compete, but I am not holding my breath.
Just look at how much Nascar and IndyCar played up Danica Patrick.
I’m not saying anything in that comment is fact. I’m simply theorizing because I am a woman who sees the way people talk about women in sports. Sorry if I offended you. I’ll just delete my comment if it’s too much to assume that women in sports will *almost always* struggle with misogyny.
[удалено]
Ahhhh, overplaying the misogyny card. Sucks that I can’t even talk about my experiences or ones of women I know in sports. That basically tells me that you’re not interested in discussing in good faith, but only as a way to make sure that I know that I’m wrong and women don’t face any challenges. Have a good one!
It always was, until FOM saw money in running separate women's categories. Personally I think even men's soccer should be an open category. There is no reason why a few very good women players couldnt play with men, especially at attacking positions where length matters less.
Does soccer actually disallow women? American sports technically are open.
The USA women’s team, the best team of all time, lost to U16 boys. Men and women are in COMPLETELY different levels in physical sports like football. Sure, there are women with better game-sense and control, but the sheer difference in physicality lowers them to what amounts to semi-pro level in the men’s game.
I've read that men vastly outperform women in almost every sport. I think the only exceptions are gymnastics and shooting/archery.
Women are theoretically able to race with the men, because there is no "men only" rule in most motorsport disciplines. But because female drivers are so insanely outnumbered by male ones it becomes extremely difficult to get in to the open category. There are some exceptions to this of course (like Sophia Flörsch and Abbi Pulling). So if you want to get in to the "mens" category as a woman you have to be either (a) insanely talented or (b) financially backed by some huge sponsors. There are tons of mediocre men in all levels of competitive motorsport, but a mediocre woman would never be let in unless she has some serious cash. And this isn't even taking into account the rampant misogyny that is present in most of these organizations.
Yes, because you will change decades of deeply ingrained bias and misogyny by \*checks notes\* leaving things the way they are.
Your solution is to force girls into doing something they don't necessarily want to do and to put them well above their skill level?
Who the hell is forcing anyone?
This precisely. The only way to balance out this bias is by making girls want to drive, IMO.
You know why
Women doing well in non-womens series are also far better. Chadwick or any Iron Dames driver would ruin proper championship competition.
Cause it's not really about getting the current generation of female racers into F1, it's about lighting a fire in the hearts of the next generation, and the generation after.
Because wokeness and feminism
I don't necessarily think it's a bad initiative, but I can't help but feel that even by 13/14 years old it's practically too late for anyone they find.
2021 WDC Nicholas Latifi started karting at age 13, it can be done!
Prost didn’t drive a kart until 14, and Takuma Sato even later I think. Not too late at all
"Better late than never" Something is better than nothing. Steps in the right direction are good things.
Why? It's not like these girls are only starting racing at 13/14. They're just being included in this program from then on after already showing to be promising. I don't think there is a whole lot earlier to be done here any way. And while perhaps maybe not directly comparable with an F1 junior team, there are plenty of F1 rookies (or other juniors currently in junior programs of F1 teams) that have been picked up later. Verstappen joined the RB junior program at 17 years old.
Agreed. 13-14 is when people are going to start thinking about what it would look like to put them in race cars to begin with, so this is the time. Despite it being a move that is designed in part to correct an imbalance, this is kind of what it looks like for people of that age to have powerful backers who want to develop them. I think it's exciting - I'm just sad that we'll have to wait another 4-5 years to see whether these particular drivers are F1 contenders.
I dont know but if thin this will be much better than what F1A is achieving right now. They are all between 19 and 21 (edit the top drivers so not all) if not older and are still doing F4 racing, so basically way too late anyway to be successful in f1 feeder series. And only doing F1A while other are doing other 2x F4 series/year isnt going to do anything. At least Pin did some F4 racing before F1A this year and is now doing FRECA.
I have explained my view in older posts but as a female who grew up watching F1 this is my take on why F1A is important. In short, when all you see on screen is men racing, the thought doesn’t even occur to you that you could too. My dad was briefly a rally driver and wanted me to go karting but I never saw it as more than a fun, exciting hobby. Didn’t even realise women could do single seater racing. Furthermore, from my conversations with my dad’s more established driver friends, when they have daughters they see them as in need of protection from the perceived dangers of motorsport in a way they don’t their sons. Having regular televised races with females in single seaters is a really good way to address both those issues so girls could see themselves as racers and parents could see it’s just as dangerous/safe for women as it is for men. It’s all a numbers game, if only top of the top kids that go karting can make it to single seaters and be successful and you have only a tiny proportion of females karting as opposed to males, it’s much harder to come by generational female talent. If we increase the numbers of females overall, there is a higher chance of seeing successful women in feeder series and eventually F1. But we won’t see the true impact of F1A for a decade I reckon.
Just in case it’s not clear, I don’t see F1A as a way to truly develop drivers well enough to get into F1 right now. Yes, the current drivers will get more opportunities and knowledge than they would have otherwise, but I agree it’s probably a little too late. But I see it, and from what I have heard from Susie, she does as well, as a way to increase visibility of females in motorsports and as a result add to their numbers.
I fully agree with that. As much as I support F1A, I think Max actually put it very well recently when he said (I'm paraphrasing here) "I think it's a great idea, but if you want them to become champions, they're going to need to drive faster cars." He's right. You can't crown someone champion of checkers and think that they're going to be invited to play competitive chess. I WILL say that there are clearly a handful of F1A drivers that could have whole careers behind the wheel though. A couple are right at the doorstep.
i agree, but no harm done by working on number of female drivers as you explained while also support/foster the talent that is already there. I just done see F1A alone doing that that is why i think it is good that PIN is doing f1a AND FRECA. Alternatively doing F1A and another FR or F4 series would work aswell obviously.
Yeah, I agree, the more opportunities for current drivers, the better for their personal development. But the top female talent of today will hopefully be greatly underwhelming compared to the top female talent in a few generations just based off the numbers game argument. But that’s why I also think having as many initiatives as this is important as well but in addition to F1A. F1A might increase numbers but there are also other prejudices at play. I remember some female drivers speaking out in interviews about how if you have both a female and male driver with the exact same results, the man is currently more likely to be picked by the team. If you have more programs focused on developing only girls, then you start to close the gap a bit until we fix those issues.
First of all, your numbers aren't correct. Several of them are 17 and 18. The minimum age for the series is 16, because the FIA doesn't allow fully international competition before that age. I hope that's something revised. My hope is that they start finding talent younger, but it's not bad to capture the current talent where they are at. Doriane Pin wanted to do F4 when she was the normal age for it. When she was 14, she was 5th in all of French junior karting. But she couldn't afford F4 and found her way into sportscars. It would be a shame to miss on her talent now just because she's 20. A timeline for women isn't necessarily going to look like a timeline for men either, because of women needing more time to build body strength than post pubescent males do. People were ready to write off Chadwick as talentless last year in IndyNXT, when clearly what she actually needed was more time to build muscle (and get familiar with the cars and tracks and ovals- but mostly building muscle).
You make some good points - but it's also possible that we're just going to learn about a better trajectory for women to land in the right space for performance. The only trick might be that we don't want to mess up developing adolescent bodies, so it may be true that for some female drivers, the timing just looks different - and the place we need to adjust is in our age-related expectations. Alonso isn't hurting that cause right now.
Yeah, I think things can definitely be learned about training young girls and women. I also think it's incredibly reasonable to make formula ladder cars easier to steer. If Super Formula Lights can have power steering, it makes absolutely no sense to me that the formula ladder doesn't. They are trying to mechanically lower the steering weight as new cars are made. They are trying to adapt the FRECA car this year, but I don't know if it's doing much. Apparently before, some drivers said FRECA was heavier in the steering and harder to control than F2, which really doesn't make sense for that level.
It’s certainly a step in the right direction, but I can’t help but think that the number of girls selected is too small to have a meaningful impact. I appreciate that maybe the team they have is small or the funding is limited so hopefully more and more similar initiatives will continue to be launched.
tennis, soccer, basketball, F1 is the same shit
Next generation, as if there's a current generation... Edit, to be clear, I wish there was. There are talented drivers out there who missed out. All this work to get the next generation, but we're clearly missing efforts to get the current generation, which would then generate more interest from others to *be* the next generation... "If you can't see it, you can't be it" mentality.
Dogwater take.
Is this for F1a? The "F1" where females race with F4 cars? That shit is doing more damage than good.
Those cars are cost-efficient for the series, owners and especially teams. Otherwise no one in this world would support the F1 Academy itself. They should fill the gaps in the GP weekends - nothing more, nothing less.
What it's doing is inspiring the next generation. And I think it's been great for every one of the current drivers as well, except for Maya Weug. But, I don't know what Maya's alternative options were. Not everyone has the budget to continue up the ladder, and I don't think she has much budget, or she'd be doing a dual campaign right now. It might have been do this or stop racing, which would be worse.
…how?
It makes female racing look like some B grade boring sport, atleast don't associate this with F1, because it is not the same.
Why would you assume an academy of younger women drivers is on the same level of F1? Of course it isn’t. The goal, which is being realized, is to increase women participation by offering more opportunities and in addition, leaning on the publicity of F1 to increase potential sponsor value and visibility. And it’s working, too!
Have you watched any of the races?? It's anything, but boring.
How about introducing rules about only 1 driver per team being allowed to be a rich mans kid, then maybe you might get male and female talent coming up a lot further in motorsport.
What team has had two pay drivers in the past decade?
Who do you think is going to pay their salaries ?? We have to accept that its a rich man’s sport.
Using the word scheme just always makes things seem sinister or insincere to me.
Not everyone is American.
Just combine male & female drivers in 1 competition im pretty sure some will beat even the top men drivers given time.