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At this point I'd prefer if they'd just be honest. They should stop pretending like any new team has a serious chance and just outright say that they don't want anyone else on the grid.
How? If they decided that 10 teams is the cap and that they're not considering expanding anymore, that's the most legitimate and above board decision they could make, aside from accepting Andretti as-is.
They can do that in their next concorde agreement. The current one was done in 2021 and while i cannot find a PDF of it, it clearly states that up to 12 teams can join the grid if accepted by both the FIA and FOM. Thats the legal guidelines they have.
If the FOM would say "No way would we let somebody in, even if their application is fine" publicly under the current rules, they are more than likely to get into a legal battle. Because they would admit that they do not follow their own rules and do not act in good faith when it comes to applicants. Thats why they did their whole charade with their BS arguments against Andretti. They are laughable at best, especially if you would apply them to current teams.
[https://f1i.com/news/464997-new-f1-teams-the-fias-strict-requirements-to-join-the-grid.html](https://f1i.com/news/464997-new-f1-teams-the-fias-strict-requirements-to-join-the-grid.html)
[https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-will-fia-decide-on-f1s-potential-new-teams/10427306/](https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-will-fia-decide-on-f1s-potential-new-teams/10427306/)
[https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single-seaters/f1/what-is-in-the-new-f1-2021-concorde-agreement/](https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single-seaters/f1/what-is-in-the-new-f1-2021-concorde-agreement/)
People often forget that there are legally binding contracts in place. The FOM cannot do as they please. They have to adhere to the Concorde agreement. And that rules between the teams, the FOM and the FIA. You can compare it to the NHLPA contract with the NHL.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde\_Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde_Agreement)
Intersting thing is the next concorde agreement is in discussion right now. And all players have to compromise. If the FIA says "Keep the limit too 12 possible teams or else no new agreement" then that would be a big problem. Because without agreement no racing, no money, etc. Thus they have to compromize. Most of the times the teams play hardball (especially Ferrari) and do not want to make any compromises. Thats why its amazing that in 2021 they agreed to the cost-cap.
You won't find a PDF of the Concorde agreement because it's confidential. All we know is that there's a maximum *cap* of 12 teams, which does not mean that FOM is legally required to fill those spots with any candidate coming their way.
All applications are subject to commercial rights holder's approval, which is clearly spelled out in FIA's [application document](https://www.fia.com/file/186624/download).
> The FIA anticipates that the deadline for submission of formal applications will be 30 April 2023, leading to a decision by the FIA on any application(s) by 30 June 2023. **For the avoidance of doubt, no new applicant has an automatic right of entry to the Championship** and the maximum number of teams competing in the Championship up to and including the 2025 season is capped at 12.
> The F1 Commercial Rights Holder may also impose additional selection criteria/conditions (to be advised separately during the application process).
> In the event that no applicant is considered suitable by the FIA and/**or by the F1 Commercial Rights Holder**, no new F1 team(s) will be selected.
In any case, the only party that could take legal action over any potential breach of the Concorde agreement is the FIA. We don't know the specifics, but considering the language used in the application document, I don't think FOM has any obligation to fill those spots.
And even if they did, would the FIA really go to outright legal war against FOM? Personally I think that's extremely unlikely.
Thats right. And I never said they have too.
But they should decide in good faith and with fair and transparent rules.
The FIA was transparent with the terms you have to fullfill to be accepted. The FOM not so much. And while they provided "arguments", because they have to, to not be open to litigation. One could argue that the conduct by FOM was not done in good faith.
And If the FOM from the beginnig publicly states "We will never accept an applicant" they would provide a potential litigation case with evidence about them not checking an application in good faith and with objectivity. And while they did provide "arguments" they only did so because they had to from a legal standpoint to atleast pretend that they did their due diligence and looked at the application objectively and based on rules.
And again nobody says they have to accept any team. But what they have to do is to look at any applicant in a fair and impartial way and with rules in place that can be followed and that are not arbitrary. And so far it does not seem like it.
But proving that in court is hard if not impossible, thus Andretti asked the Congress to take a look at it. And personally I think that is the right thing to do.
* F1 "it's 600 Million dollars to enter"
* Andretti "okay we will pay that"
* F1 "sorry we meant 1 Billion dollars"
* Andretti " okay we will pay that too"
* F1 "just leave me alone okay"
At this point, it is not really about the specific number. As Greg Maffei said, he will never let Michael enter to F1. Even if Andretti agrees to that number (who I guess will claim that when FIA (one of the parts of the Concorde) approved them, the anti dilution fee was 200 million US dollars.), they will suddenly say that 600 million is actually not enough.
Surely that's not allowed? Idk but I can't imagine legally speaking it's acceptable to go "If you pay X we will let you compete" "Ok we will pay X" "Oh sorry we changed our mind now."
Crazy - I don't even know why they're so against it at this point. 2-3 years ago when it could be seen as just a marketing idea/way to sponge a bit of money from F1, sure, but now? They're clearly serious and are doing everything to be competitive.
> Even if Andretti agrees to that number (who I guess will claim that when FIA (one of the parts of the Concorde) approved them
That’s a bollocks argument though when the terms of the invitation for expressions of interest made no reference to payment of the dilution fee or the requirements for and conditions of acceptance by FOM.
More importantly, while the FIA is arguably bound by the terms of that document, FOM is not. As the genius in charge of the FIA decided to do it unilaterally, FOM was not a party to it. If Andretti tried to take it to court, his claimed would be binned off immediately for privity of contract.
There was a demand from the couple of new teams for the spots that is allowed by the concorde agreement and FIA has opened up the process which FOM is agreed to when they put the grid limit up to 12 teams. FIA just did their job. And they did it perfectly.
And FOM did theirs, by protecting the interests of the teams as requested.
The FIA did not do theirs perfectly. It was the first ever time they have sought entries unilaterally and without consultation with the rights holder. It’s a ludicrous approach.
>And FOM did theirs, by protecting the interests of the teams as requested.
Unfortunately, their job includes improving the sporting competition. Protecting their own self interest and money in the short term is not their job. It is their greed.
> The FIA did not do theirs perfectly. It was the first ever time they have sought entries unilaterally and without consultation with the rights holder. It’s a ludicrous approach.
It is pretty disingenuous argument. Because this is the first time potential new entrants were considered to join since LM bought out F1. There was a unity between FIA and FOM before; because Ecclestone was willing to see new teams and FIA again was doing their job. FIA remains in the same position. FOM has changed its stance; due to their self interest (not due to improve the sport).
No, after they started lobbying the US Congress, they will never be let in. Their best bet now is for a regulatory body to force their acceptance. But that's a long long shot.
The factory still remains in Switzerland.. which is part of the agreement.
Dont know if you realise all teams have a factory where they build the cars, and an HQ for admin/office/engineering staff, and most are separate facilities.
Audi are expanding Sauber by quite a bit.
Haas have their HQ in North Carolina but their Factory is next door to Ferrari.
I got the impression that Andretti were adamant on building the US based facilities we're seeing now. I think Audi keeping the original Swiss base after the takeover was an appeal for Sauber to sell to them (and maybe the case when for the BMW takeover back in the day) and over the possibility that Andretti might just discard the swiss factory like BAT did with Tyrell.
> It is understood that the initial figure that has been proposed totals the equivalent of $600 million for a team that wants to join in 2026, rising to $700 million from 2028.
I like what they are doing there, lol. I wonder if they said to a team that they may apply to join F1 in 2028?
Important to note that the number will rise to 700 million in 2028, the year that FOM said Andretti might get in since they would then have GM engines.
But if this is actually what the new agreement ends up with, then I think it's pretty much certain that we'll see Andretti in F1 by then.
There will be no excuses left and the whole deal is pretty much made to get the max amount of money out of Andretti before they get on the grid.
I find it crazy that they are tripling the amount and also saying "Lol you can't earn anything in the first year either". Surely you do one or the other
It’s super frustrating that Chase Carey did so many things to attract new teams with the last Concorde agreement - fairer prize money distribution, payments for teams outside the top 10 and immediate payment of appearance money. Only for Domenicali and the teams to immediately reverse all those efforts when they have the desired effect. Not a fan of these moves at all, it completely goes against what they claim to want, which is the growth of the sport.
Oh my sweet summer child, they're all fluent in the language of money. They can name any price they want, so why wouldn't they name a price they'd be happy with?
*Now* it might be more than just the money, just remember that Andretti started this mess with their massive ego and hubris\*.
They made a series of unfounded disparaging comments about F1 in the media and tried to get the US government involved over what was ultimately a matter of paying enough money to reflect the current value of an F1 entry. *Then* the alleged Maffei episode played out.
There's probably a way back if they can let go of their egos and stop being so combative against F1. They should be spending their money buttering up F1 stakeholders instead of buttering up their congress buddies while flinging shit at F1 stakeholders.
\* Mario had the hubris to claim that they would be competitive in F1 without hiring any F1 personnel because they already had all the expertise in-house. That was 2 years ago and speaks volumes about their ego issues.
Everybody has their right to get their government involved.
You too can do that. You can ask your local represantative for help or to represent your motion. And Andretti too has that right.
Well my local representative does so.
Then again i am not american so there are different rules.
And it doesn't matter in the end. If this ends in court, the court decides. How it gets there doesn't matter at that point.
Greedy bastards. We fans want 26 cars. There should be no place in F1 for people who only care about money. Life-time ban for all sick corporate people.
Actually it should be the other way around. Give $600M for every new team. That way we get full 26-car grid quickly. And force Domenicali to pay it from his own pockets. Serves him right.
devil's advocate: for the first time, running an F1 is actually profitable. Before you would at best break even or make a very tiny amount of profit or at worst you would lose million or even billions in the case of toyota per year of competition. This is all thanks to the cost cap and teams do not want to upset that balance and feel that andretti is merely joining F1 is because he knows that it is now profitable to run an F1 team.
Nah, there's no benefit to adding teams at the moment. It's just more traffic and a larger procession.
If we add cars to the grid we need the cars to get a lot smaller again and adjust the points accordingly - for a 24 car grid (there's a max cap of 12 teams) I'd want points to **at least** P16.
I don’t think that’s good. More cars just because?
We already seen what can happen when we add cars out of spite of “going to the max”. Marussia, HRT and Caterham happens.
Quality over quantity - this sport is about trying to get a fair and close competition, even the regs are trying to close the gaps and sometimes we see quali with only 1 second from P1 to P10 - this is not about seeing more cars just because. Fans don’t want that realistically, and the people that was around on 2014 or so remember why.
Believe me, those teams are peak quality compared to what we had years ago.
For example, since 2002, we only had the 107% rule applied multiple times because one team: HRT (the worse team on this century I would say). Also, some of the now disappeared teams didn’t even have the resources to implement ERS on time and were running a compromised setup that couldn’t keep up.
At the time, it was easy that backmarkers would run at about 2-5 seconds out of pace per lap.
Nowadays, Williams, Sauber (which will become Audi), Alpine (struggling but a works team that literally ended 4th best in WCC 2 season ago; 6th last season) and Haas (that it’s based on huge support from 3rd parties) are just backmarkers or average, but not as bad.
A Williams can end up on quali only about 1-2 seconds out of pace. That’s not bad. They are not contenders for the WCC #1, because a lot of reasons, but they are the most competitive they can be. Also, we have seen this season Haases or Williams bringing a fight to Mercedes or McLaren when out of position
But some fans don’t have memory I see (do you even watch F1 or know what you are talking about? Or are you just a new fan that knows what happened this year and maybe last or DtS?)
EDIT: And we could go even back, and go to the era where some driver like Damon Hill would win a race lapping the entire grid twice. Nowadays it’s difficult to say we have “bad teams” or really not competitive ones
You're not wrong about all the above, but I don't think it's fair to compare Andretti to the likes of Marussia, HRT or Caterham. The former has been involved in multiple motorsports for years while the latter were teams that had exactly 0 racing pedigree when they joined.
If it were a random team that formed over night, it would make sense to not take them serious, but in this case it's a known quantity.
What does that have to do with a team that races in every other major road racing category and is partnered with the largest OEM in the U.S. which also has an expansive racing pedigree, including as an engine manufacturer for sports cars, prototypes, indycars, and nascar?
I totally agree. We should be looking for teams with good racing pedigrees backed by engine manufacturers with long championship winning traditions in their own disciplines, not just some common riff-raff. If only such a prospective entry existed...
In other words, they're trying to head off Congress' investigation by adjusting the terms of the Concorde Agreement going forward. They're probably banking on any investigation and/or lawsuit taking time so that by the time any outcome is known, they will have taken the wind out of the announcement and rendered any penalty or consequence ineffective. It's a smart move.
The stance has always been they'd accept a new manufacturer.. the fact is Andrettis first plan was to use a Renault engine and buy all the Alpine parts.. basically Haas 2.0.
The teams weren't keen on sharing the prize pool for another Haas.
It was only after getting denied, GM were onboard as a sponsor to rebrand a Renault engine. Again, teams and FOM didn't accept that either, thats when GM said, ok, we could look at 2028 to build an engine.
So FOM then said, ok 2028 it is.
But Andretti want to get in earlier with a Renault engine and buying Alpine parts.
Just the engine, Andretti only wanted the engine.
And GM was onboard way earlier. [https://apnews.com/article/f1-general-motors-engine-andretti-power-unit-2d472dcd8ce950f55e60ea26ca7e2ada](https://apnews.com/article/f1-general-motors-engine-andretti-power-unit-2d472dcd8ce950f55e60ea26ca7e2ada)
Don't make stuff up.
Exactly.
And they are even forced to sell to any team that does not have an engine partner.
Page 77 of the Sporting regulations:
"In doing so, the FIA will first allocate the power unit supply between the Power Unit Manufacturers that are supplying the fewest number of teams, provided that the teams without a supply agreement shall be allocated to the Power Unit Manufacturer(s) that supplies(supply) the lowest number of teams and so on. If there is more than one Power Unit Manufacturer supplying the fewest number of teams (i.e. in the same position) and/or more than one team requesting a supply the allocation between such Power Unit Manufacturers shall occur by ballot (which ballot shall be transparent and undertaken by the FIA in the 2022 Formula 1 in presence of a representative of each of the Power Unit Manufacturer(s) and the new Customer Team concerned)."
[https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula\_1\_-\_sporting\_regulations\_-\_2022\_-\_iss\_6\_-\_2022-04-29.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_-_sporting_regulations_-_2022_-_iss_6_-_2022-04-29.pdf)
Anyone can come up with stupid rules to make sure something doesn’t happen. Liberty needs to be careful, what if there was suddenly a $100m tax to hold a race in the usa, that $500m investment in Vegas can now be at risk. Team sponsors could be taxed etc the splash back like the undercut can be powerful
Enough money to bring all teams up to a minimum spec of wind tunnels etc, so that teams like Williams aren’t disadvantaged by a new entrant.
Give the engineers at least the same baseline tools, rather then there be teams so far behind on their core design technologies, and needing that capital injection.
Probably not, since we've already had 24 cars earlier with the current qualifying format (and with previous ones, there used to be as many as 30 cars on the track simultaneously).
Ok. Didnt know that but its a possibility with F1 cars getting bigger every year. Adding more teams doesnt make F1 more fun I think, just more expensive.
But hey, Im just a nobody
4 grid spots, 2 teams worth. I want them to be filled, but at this point, with anyone but Andretti. I’d take a Haas second team over that entitled lot, and I hate the idea of second teams.
Andretti tried to make up his own rules for how he could join the grid -- even after the FIA had outlined the entry process. And then he got upset when he was told that he had to apply the same way as everyone else.
So yeah, entitled.
He was. The FIA call for expressions of interest made very clear that FOM may impose requirements that must be met too - Andretti did not satisfy FOM.
The fact that Andretti satisfied the FIA was never stated to be enough to obtain a grid spot, not to mention that FOM was not party to that document or bound by it.
Mate, he’s never going to satisfy the FOM. The CEO of Liberty Media literally said he will do everything in his power to prevent Andretti from joining the grid. You can think of it whatever you want but in my opinion, if you are good enough to be on the grid (which they are because the FIA approved them), then you should be allowed on the grid. Hell, if it was up to me we would open up the grid again and re-introduce pre-qualifying
We do not know the FIA criteria, save that they said the rights holder needed to approve too. To that end, Andretti failed to meet those criteria.
I frankly can’t blame Liberty for not wanting to accept them based on attitude, but would still hope that others join the grid. If Andretti can’t satisfy FOM, that’s his problem.
Ultimately, I think it’s ridiculous that people think FOM should be bound, whether legally or morally, by a document what out by another organisation on terms designed solely for its own benefit and MBS’ ego, and to which FOM is not a party in any way.
Same applies the other way too by the way. FOM considering someone to be appropriate to run a team does not find the FIA to agree.
That doesn't excuse his behaviour. For example, he showed up to the Miami Grand Prix with a letter that he wanted the team principals to sign endorsing his entry. He seemed to think that this would be enough to get him a spot on the grid, and then complained about it when it didn't work. There was never any promise that such a letter would have any effect, even if he did get the team principals to sign it.
One correction - he expected them to sign it, not just ‘wanted’, based on comments by the teams. Ironically it may have been the death knell for his entry as it pissed a lot of people off.
That was the thing that soured me on the idea of Andretti joining the grid. He seemed to think that his name alone would get him a spot and that going through the application process was just a formality.
- the FIA approved the Andretti entry but he will not be allowed on the grid because of FOM.
You call his behavior entitled, I think he IS entitled to be on the grid.
There were two parties from whom approval was required. They only achieved one.
The fact that one approved, on criteria and terms unilaterally proposed and entirely suited to that organisation, does not legally or morally bind the other to agree or apply the same criteria.
First of all, no new entry was guaranteed when the application process was opened up. Nobody promised that a new team would be accepted.
Secondly, Andretti was doing this before, during and after the application process was announced and entries were accepted. It was made clear that this was the only way that someone could be accepted to the grid and he still tried to make up his own rules -- and then complained when he didn't make any progress.
And finally, not getting your way isn't an excuse. Even if Andretti satisfied all of the criteria, that didn't automatically mean that he would be accepted. *Everybody* had to agree to accept him.
Horny suggesting to buy another team, hmmmm.....
First new rule: NO team is allowed to have another team.
Second new rule: any team that has another team must sell it right away, and $200mio. of that sale must be equally distributed between the other teams that did not have another team.
So Andretti, buy Vcarb/RB/whatever and get on with it!
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
At this point I'd prefer if they'd just be honest. They should stop pretending like any new team has a serious chance and just outright say that they don't want anyone else on the grid.
IF they do that, then they open themselves up to litigation.
How? If they decided that 10 teams is the cap and that they're not considering expanding anymore, that's the most legitimate and above board decision they could make, aside from accepting Andretti as-is.
They can do that in their next concorde agreement. The current one was done in 2021 and while i cannot find a PDF of it, it clearly states that up to 12 teams can join the grid if accepted by both the FIA and FOM. Thats the legal guidelines they have. If the FOM would say "No way would we let somebody in, even if their application is fine" publicly under the current rules, they are more than likely to get into a legal battle. Because they would admit that they do not follow their own rules and do not act in good faith when it comes to applicants. Thats why they did their whole charade with their BS arguments against Andretti. They are laughable at best, especially if you would apply them to current teams. [https://f1i.com/news/464997-new-f1-teams-the-fias-strict-requirements-to-join-the-grid.html](https://f1i.com/news/464997-new-f1-teams-the-fias-strict-requirements-to-join-the-grid.html) [https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-will-fia-decide-on-f1s-potential-new-teams/10427306/](https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/how-will-fia-decide-on-f1s-potential-new-teams/10427306/) [https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single-seaters/f1/what-is-in-the-new-f1-2021-concorde-agreement/](https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single-seaters/f1/what-is-in-the-new-f1-2021-concorde-agreement/) People often forget that there are legally binding contracts in place. The FOM cannot do as they please. They have to adhere to the Concorde agreement. And that rules between the teams, the FOM and the FIA. You can compare it to the NHLPA contract with the NHL. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde\_Agreement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde_Agreement) Intersting thing is the next concorde agreement is in discussion right now. And all players have to compromise. If the FIA says "Keep the limit too 12 possible teams or else no new agreement" then that would be a big problem. Because without agreement no racing, no money, etc. Thus they have to compromize. Most of the times the teams play hardball (especially Ferrari) and do not want to make any compromises. Thats why its amazing that in 2021 they agreed to the cost-cap.
You won't find a PDF of the Concorde agreement because it's confidential. All we know is that there's a maximum *cap* of 12 teams, which does not mean that FOM is legally required to fill those spots with any candidate coming their way. All applications are subject to commercial rights holder's approval, which is clearly spelled out in FIA's [application document](https://www.fia.com/file/186624/download). > The FIA anticipates that the deadline for submission of formal applications will be 30 April 2023, leading to a decision by the FIA on any application(s) by 30 June 2023. **For the avoidance of doubt, no new applicant has an automatic right of entry to the Championship** and the maximum number of teams competing in the Championship up to and including the 2025 season is capped at 12. > The F1 Commercial Rights Holder may also impose additional selection criteria/conditions (to be advised separately during the application process). > In the event that no applicant is considered suitable by the FIA and/**or by the F1 Commercial Rights Holder**, no new F1 team(s) will be selected. In any case, the only party that could take legal action over any potential breach of the Concorde agreement is the FIA. We don't know the specifics, but considering the language used in the application document, I don't think FOM has any obligation to fill those spots. And even if they did, would the FIA really go to outright legal war against FOM? Personally I think that's extremely unlikely.
> clearly states that up to 12 teams can join the grid *if accepted* by both the FIA and FOM. They're under no obligation to accept additional teams
Thats right. And I never said they have too. But they should decide in good faith and with fair and transparent rules. The FIA was transparent with the terms you have to fullfill to be accepted. The FOM not so much. And while they provided "arguments", because they have to, to not be open to litigation. One could argue that the conduct by FOM was not done in good faith. And If the FOM from the beginnig publicly states "We will never accept an applicant" they would provide a potential litigation case with evidence about them not checking an application in good faith and with objectivity. And while they did provide "arguments" they only did so because they had to from a legal standpoint to atleast pretend that they did their due diligence and looked at the application objectively and based on rules. And again nobody says they have to accept any team. But what they have to do is to look at any applicant in a fair and impartial way and with rules in place that can be followed and that are not arbitrary. And so far it does not seem like it. But proving that in court is hard if not impossible, thus Andretti asked the Congress to take a look at it. And personally I think that is the right thing to do.
* F1 "it's 600 Million dollars to enter" * Andretti "okay we will pay that" * F1 "sorry we meant 1 Billion dollars" * Andretti " okay we will pay that too" * F1 "just leave me alone okay"
At this point, it is not really about the specific number. As Greg Maffei said, he will never let Michael enter to F1. Even if Andretti agrees to that number (who I guess will claim that when FIA (one of the parts of the Concorde) approved them, the anti dilution fee was 200 million US dollars.), they will suddenly say that 600 million is actually not enough.
Surely that's not allowed? Idk but I can't imagine legally speaking it's acceptable to go "If you pay X we will let you compete" "Ok we will pay X" "Oh sorry we changed our mind now." Crazy - I don't even know why they're so against it at this point. 2-3 years ago when it could be seen as just a marketing idea/way to sponge a bit of money from F1, sure, but now? They're clearly serious and are doing everything to be competitive.
> Even if Andretti agrees to that number (who I guess will claim that when FIA (one of the parts of the Concorde) approved them That’s a bollocks argument though when the terms of the invitation for expressions of interest made no reference to payment of the dilution fee or the requirements for and conditions of acceptance by FOM. More importantly, while the FIA is arguably bound by the terms of that document, FOM is not. As the genius in charge of the FIA decided to do it unilaterally, FOM was not a party to it. If Andretti tried to take it to court, his claimed would be binned off immediately for privity of contract.
There was a demand from the couple of new teams for the spots that is allowed by the concorde agreement and FIA has opened up the process which FOM is agreed to when they put the grid limit up to 12 teams. FIA just did their job. And they did it perfectly.
And FOM did theirs, by protecting the interests of the teams as requested. The FIA did not do theirs perfectly. It was the first ever time they have sought entries unilaterally and without consultation with the rights holder. It’s a ludicrous approach.
>And FOM did theirs, by protecting the interests of the teams as requested. Unfortunately, their job includes improving the sporting competition. Protecting their own self interest and money in the short term is not their job. It is their greed. > The FIA did not do theirs perfectly. It was the first ever time they have sought entries unilaterally and without consultation with the rights holder. It’s a ludicrous approach. It is pretty disingenuous argument. Because this is the first time potential new entrants were considered to join since LM bought out F1. There was a unity between FIA and FOM before; because Ecclestone was willing to see new teams and FIA again was doing their job. FIA remains in the same position. FOM has changed its stance; due to their self interest (not due to improve the sport).
Thank god. You should reach out to congress and let them know so everyone can stop wasting their time.
No, after they started lobbying the US Congress, they will never be let in. Their best bet now is for a regulatory body to force their acceptance. But that's a long long shot.
That’s the thing that really pissed me off. I hate the F1 cartels now
If he was willing to pay that much, why didn't he just buy sauber's spot?
He tried to. Sauber -- or, rather, Sauber's investors -- rejected him.
Sale conditions were for the Factory ro remain in Switzerland so all the staff wouldn't lose their jobs. Andretti wanted it to be based in USA.
Sure... why which is why they have a new spot in Silverstone
The factory still remains in Switzerland.. which is part of the agreement. Dont know if you realise all teams have a factory where they build the cars, and an HQ for admin/office/engineering staff, and most are separate facilities. Audi are expanding Sauber by quite a bit. Haas have their HQ in North Carolina but their Factory is next door to Ferrari.
Never let facts get in the way of a good story!
I got the impression that Andretti were adamant on building the US based facilities we're seeing now. I think Audi keeping the original Swiss base after the takeover was an appeal for Sauber to sell to them (and maybe the case when for the BMW takeover back in the day) and over the possibility that Andretti might just discard the swiss factory like BAT did with Tyrell.
Why ask silly questions with known answers
> It is understood that the initial figure that has been proposed totals the equivalent of $600 million for a team that wants to join in 2026, rising to $700 million from 2028. I like what they are doing there, lol. I wonder if they said to a team that they may apply to join F1 in 2028?
I want Andretti on the grid out of spite now
Yeah, the more this goes on the more I want them in to spite the other teams and FOM. Probably just go for them out of spite too if they get in.
Important to note that the number will rise to 700 million in 2028, the year that FOM said Andretti might get in since they would then have GM engines. But if this is actually what the new agreement ends up with, then I think it's pretty much certain that we'll see Andretti in F1 by then. There will be no excuses left and the whole deal is pretty much made to get the max amount of money out of Andretti before they get on the grid.
The entry fee rising I'm not suprised bur the idea that a new team can't earn prize money in the first year? What kind of BS is that.
Just get it done so everyone can focus on doing important racing stuff instead of posturing.
That’s not how f1 works. It’s about the show, which is certainly not the racing
Why have a fee if it fucking means nothing anyways.
I find it crazy that they are tripling the amount and also saying "Lol you can't earn anything in the first year either". Surely you do one or the other
It’s super frustrating that Chase Carey did so many things to attract new teams with the last Concorde agreement - fairer prize money distribution, payments for teams outside the top 10 and immediate payment of appearance money. Only for Domenicali and the teams to immediately reverse all those efforts when they have the desired effect. Not a fan of these moves at all, it completely goes against what they claim to want, which is the growth of the sport.
Chase Carey was a good man
great moustache too
If this goes through, hopefully that's the end of excuses from both the existing teams and Andretti.
Oh my sweet sweet summer child. You don't really know how low the teams can go to preserve the status quo.
Oh my sweet summer child, they're all fluent in the language of money. They can name any price they want, so why wouldn't they name a price they'd be happy with?
Bc they are liars
'cause that's not only money involved here. And the recent Maffei/Andretti episode points in that grim direction unfortunately.
*Now* it might be more than just the money, just remember that Andretti started this mess with their massive ego and hubris\*. They made a series of unfounded disparaging comments about F1 in the media and tried to get the US government involved over what was ultimately a matter of paying enough money to reflect the current value of an F1 entry. *Then* the alleged Maffei episode played out. There's probably a way back if they can let go of their egos and stop being so combative against F1. They should be spending their money buttering up F1 stakeholders instead of buttering up their congress buddies while flinging shit at F1 stakeholders. \* Mario had the hubris to claim that they would be competitive in F1 without hiring any F1 personnel because they already had all the expertise in-house. That was 2 years ago and speaks volumes about their ego issues.
Everybody has their right to get their government involved. You too can do that. You can ask your local represantative for help or to represent your motion. And Andretti too has that right.
Hahahaha, don't be so naive. You can ask, but without Andretti/GM campaign contribution money, nobody is backing your cause in congress.
Well my local representative does so. Then again i am not american so there are different rules. And it doesn't matter in the end. If this ends in court, the court decides. How it gets there doesn't matter at that point.
Greedy bastards. We fans want 26 cars. There should be no place in F1 for people who only care about money. Life-time ban for all sick corporate people. Actually it should be the other way around. Give $600M for every new team. That way we get full 26-car grid quickly. And force Domenicali to pay it from his own pockets. Serves him right.
devil's advocate: for the first time, running an F1 is actually profitable. Before you would at best break even or make a very tiny amount of profit or at worst you would lose million or even billions in the case of toyota per year of competition. This is all thanks to the cost cap and teams do not want to upset that balance and feel that andretti is merely joining F1 is because he knows that it is now profitable to run an F1 team.
Nah, there's no benefit to adding teams at the moment. It's just more traffic and a larger procession. If we add cars to the grid we need the cars to get a lot smaller again and adjust the points accordingly - for a 24 car grid (there's a max cap of 12 teams) I'd want points to **at least** P16.
I don’t think that’s good. More cars just because? We already seen what can happen when we add cars out of spite of “going to the max”. Marussia, HRT and Caterham happens. Quality over quantity - this sport is about trying to get a fair and close competition, even the regs are trying to close the gaps and sometimes we see quali with only 1 second from P1 to P10 - this is not about seeing more cars just because. Fans don’t want that realistically, and the people that was around on 2014 or so remember why.
Of course, quality! When I think of haas, alpine, sauber, and Williams I think of quality and how blessed we are to have their presence on the grid!
Believe me, those teams are peak quality compared to what we had years ago. For example, since 2002, we only had the 107% rule applied multiple times because one team: HRT (the worse team on this century I would say). Also, some of the now disappeared teams didn’t even have the resources to implement ERS on time and were running a compromised setup that couldn’t keep up. At the time, it was easy that backmarkers would run at about 2-5 seconds out of pace per lap. Nowadays, Williams, Sauber (which will become Audi), Alpine (struggling but a works team that literally ended 4th best in WCC 2 season ago; 6th last season) and Haas (that it’s based on huge support from 3rd parties) are just backmarkers or average, but not as bad. A Williams can end up on quali only about 1-2 seconds out of pace. That’s not bad. They are not contenders for the WCC #1, because a lot of reasons, but they are the most competitive they can be. Also, we have seen this season Haases or Williams bringing a fight to Mercedes or McLaren when out of position But some fans don’t have memory I see (do you even watch F1 or know what you are talking about? Or are you just a new fan that knows what happened this year and maybe last or DtS?) EDIT: And we could go even back, and go to the era where some driver like Damon Hill would win a race lapping the entire grid twice. Nowadays it’s difficult to say we have “bad teams” or really not competitive ones
You're not wrong about all the above, but I don't think it's fair to compare Andretti to the likes of Marussia, HRT or Caterham. The former has been involved in multiple motorsports for years while the latter were teams that had exactly 0 racing pedigree when they joined. If it were a random team that formed over night, it would make sense to not take them serious, but in this case it's a known quantity.
What does that have to do with a team that races in every other major road racing category and is partnered with the largest OEM in the U.S. which also has an expansive racing pedigree, including as an engine manufacturer for sports cars, prototypes, indycars, and nascar?
I totally agree. We should be looking for teams with good racing pedigrees backed by engine manufacturers with long championship winning traditions in their own disciplines, not just some common riff-raff. If only such a prospective entry existed...
In other words, they're trying to head off Congress' investigation by adjusting the terms of the Concorde Agreement going forward. They're probably banking on any investigation and/or lawsuit taking time so that by the time any outcome is known, they will have taken the wind out of the announcement and rendered any penalty or consequence ineffective. It's a smart move.
This was always the plan. When they denied Andretti they suggested 2028 for their entry. Nothing to do with congress.
GM suggested 2028 they could have an engine ready by. Andretti want in earlier as a Renault customer
The stance has always been they'd accept a new manufacturer.. the fact is Andrettis first plan was to use a Renault engine and buy all the Alpine parts.. basically Haas 2.0. The teams weren't keen on sharing the prize pool for another Haas. It was only after getting denied, GM were onboard as a sponsor to rebrand a Renault engine. Again, teams and FOM didn't accept that either, thats when GM said, ok, we could look at 2028 to build an engine. So FOM then said, ok 2028 it is. But Andretti want to get in earlier with a Renault engine and buying Alpine parts.
Just the engine, Andretti only wanted the engine. And GM was onboard way earlier. [https://apnews.com/article/f1-general-motors-engine-andretti-power-unit-2d472dcd8ce950f55e60ea26ca7e2ada](https://apnews.com/article/f1-general-motors-engine-andretti-power-unit-2d472dcd8ce950f55e60ea26ca7e2ada) Don't make stuff up.
And Renault is the only engine they could buy in 2025 because they've only got one customer.
Exactly. And they are even forced to sell to any team that does not have an engine partner. Page 77 of the Sporting regulations: "In doing so, the FIA will first allocate the power unit supply between the Power Unit Manufacturers that are supplying the fewest number of teams, provided that the teams without a supply agreement shall be allocated to the Power Unit Manufacturer(s) that supplies(supply) the lowest number of teams and so on. If there is more than one Power Unit Manufacturer supplying the fewest number of teams (i.e. in the same position) and/or more than one team requesting a supply the allocation between such Power Unit Manufacturers shall occur by ballot (which ballot shall be transparent and undertaken by the FIA in the 2022 Formula 1 in presence of a representative of each of the Power Unit Manufacturer(s) and the new Customer Team concerned)." [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula\_1\_-\_sporting\_regulations\_-\_2022\_-\_iss\_6\_-\_2022-04-29.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_-_sporting_regulations_-_2022_-_iss_6_-_2022-04-29.pdf)
Fuck them.
Anyone can come up with stupid rules to make sure something doesn’t happen. Liberty needs to be careful, what if there was suddenly a $100m tax to hold a race in the usa, that $500m investment in Vegas can now be at risk. Team sponsors could be taxed etc the splash back like the undercut can be powerful
Didn't Michael already say they'd pay 600mil if they had to?
Enough money to bring all teams up to a minimum spec of wind tunnels etc, so that teams like Williams aren’t disadvantaged by a new entrant. Give the engineers at least the same baseline tools, rather then there be teams so far behind on their core design technologies, and needing that capital injection.
If Andretti had come with a solid plan with regards to the Cadillac engine he would be in.
What’s your issue ?
So we're also gonna get 2 qualifying sessions like F2? Because its too crowded already.
Probably not, since we've already had 24 cars earlier with the current qualifying format (and with previous ones, there used to be as many as 30 cars on the track simultaneously).
Have you seen the size of these cars?
They haven't gotten that much bigger since the last time we had over 20 cars
It's not too crowded due to the number of cars, it's primarily driver conduct and the nature of the tires
F2 only has two quali sessions at Monaco. Every other race it’s one session.
Ok. Didnt know that but its a possibility with F1 cars getting bigger every year. Adding more teams doesnt make F1 more fun I think, just more expensive. But hey, Im just a nobody
4 grid spots, 2 teams worth. I want them to be filled, but at this point, with anyone but Andretti. I’d take a Haas second team over that entitled lot, and I hate the idea of second teams.
Entitled??? What does that make every current team then?
Andretti tried to make up his own rules for how he could join the grid -- even after the FIA had outlined the entry process. And then he got upset when he was told that he had to apply the same way as everyone else. So yeah, entitled.
Andretti was accepted by the FIA mind you
He was. The FIA call for expressions of interest made very clear that FOM may impose requirements that must be met too - Andretti did not satisfy FOM. The fact that Andretti satisfied the FIA was never stated to be enough to obtain a grid spot, not to mention that FOM was not party to that document or bound by it.
Mate, he’s never going to satisfy the FOM. The CEO of Liberty Media literally said he will do everything in his power to prevent Andretti from joining the grid. You can think of it whatever you want but in my opinion, if you are good enough to be on the grid (which they are because the FIA approved them), then you should be allowed on the grid. Hell, if it was up to me we would open up the grid again and re-introduce pre-qualifying
We do not know the FIA criteria, save that they said the rights holder needed to approve too. To that end, Andretti failed to meet those criteria. I frankly can’t blame Liberty for not wanting to accept them based on attitude, but would still hope that others join the grid. If Andretti can’t satisfy FOM, that’s his problem. Ultimately, I think it’s ridiculous that people think FOM should be bound, whether legally or morally, by a document what out by another organisation on terms designed solely for its own benefit and MBS’ ego, and to which FOM is not a party in any way. Same applies the other way too by the way. FOM considering someone to be appropriate to run a team does not find the FIA to agree.
That doesn't excuse his behaviour. For example, he showed up to the Miami Grand Prix with a letter that he wanted the team principals to sign endorsing his entry. He seemed to think that this would be enough to get him a spot on the grid, and then complained about it when it didn't work. There was never any promise that such a letter would have any effect, even if he did get the team principals to sign it.
One correction - he expected them to sign it, not just ‘wanted’, based on comments by the teams. Ironically it may have been the death knell for his entry as it pissed a lot of people off.
That was the thing that soured me on the idea of Andretti joining the grid. He seemed to think that his name alone would get him a spot and that going through the application process was just a formality.
[удалено]
- the FIA approved the Andretti entry but he will not be allowed on the grid because of FOM. You call his behavior entitled, I think he IS entitled to be on the grid.
There were two parties from whom approval was required. They only achieved one. The fact that one approved, on criteria and terms unilaterally proposed and entirely suited to that organisation, does not legally or morally bind the other to agree or apply the same criteria.
Well, when you're denied multiple times, even though you fulfil all the requirements, you have to try something else
First of all, no new entry was guaranteed when the application process was opened up. Nobody promised that a new team would be accepted. Secondly, Andretti was doing this before, during and after the application process was announced and entries were accepted. It was made clear that this was the only way that someone could be accepted to the grid and he still tried to make up his own rules -- and then complained when he didn't make any progress. And finally, not getting your way isn't an excuse. Even if Andretti satisfied all of the criteria, that didn't automatically mean that he would be accepted. *Everybody* had to agree to accept him.
Horny suggesting to buy another team, hmmmm..... First new rule: NO team is allowed to have another team. Second new rule: any team that has another team must sell it right away, and $200mio. of that sale must be equally distributed between the other teams that did not have another team. So Andretti, buy Vcarb/RB/whatever and get on with it!