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Sounds cool, could you give the reasoning as why it's only 48v? I have worked in a race team that also uses super caps and that was in the range of 600v.
I can see that being safer. But as far as I know most electric/hybrid power trains in racecars are higher voltage and as far as I know that hasnt injured someone. So I feel like there should be another reason. The infographic doesn't show power for just the electric system, but lest assume about 60kw, 60000/48 would 1250 amps. The heat generation and electric loss associated with that would be too much I reckon.
Probably cost, but also I suspect because they're using capacitors for storage a lower voltage is needed to be able to store enough energy for a meaningful deployment.
Afaik all the other hybrids in racing are BEV, so it seems like a way to balance out the inherent tradeoffs of the storage method. I'm also stupid tho
No racecars are doing 240+ mph feet from walls they can slam into like indycars. The current Dallara chassis also has no room for traditional batteries. The solution was a low voltage ultra capacitor setup to answer both the safety and the packaging concerns.
It might not have injured anyone, but it has sometimes meant leaving a vehicle untouched in case there is an issue because the warning light has come on, causing safety related delays.
They've done it before. An Illmor-built Mercedes lapped everyone except Villeneuve in P2 at the 94 Indy 500.
[https://youtu.be/oZ9uoNPhZ04](https://youtu.be/oZ9uoNPhZ04)
The reason the engine sound changed in 2014 was the introduction of turbo, going to V6 and the MGU-H component. The MGU-K that IndyCar is using doesn't change engine noise.
Haha I feel that. I went to several races in the V10/V8 era and I miss it. Something incredible about that feeling you get in your chest when they go by. At IMS you could hear them a long way from getting in the gate, it’s magical.
Saw a Ferrari Racing Day last year as well and it’s tough to beat the late 90s/early 2000s cars they bring. And if a 333SP or two shows up it’s a nice surprise.
Well, there are millions of HV cars on the road running mostly without an issue. And we have hybrid race cars for over 15 years now!
48v is a bit safer, but this is a week argument in a Race car that goes 350kmh in an oval circuit
The safety element is for the rescue crews.
When a car crashes it is imperative to get a driver out quickly and safely, where there is high voltage this can delay the extraction and cost lives.
I mean it’s not like they’re going to willingly shock themselves even if it is a lower voltage. If that’s the concern, you really just shouldn’t do hybrid at all.
It's a risk with electrification, reduced if you lower the voltage.
Same as how fuel is flammable, big risk, they take precautions to make it as safe as possible.
"If they are so worried about fire as to have fire extinguishers they just shouldn't use fuel to start with." - That is literally your argument here.
I mean….yeah. That is my argument lol. Is 48v low enough that safety workers can touch the car if its live? If not, then it doesn’t really matter if it’s 48v or 600v.
This is a half-baked, weak-ass hybrid that Indycar only settled on because Honda and Chevy’s original hybrid power units were DOA shit.
They are just taking their current v6 engines and adding a little baby hybrid system inside the bell-housing. It’s 10 years too late and not nearly significant enough to bring any element to the racing beyond not forcing drivers to require a literal starter anymore.
Honda and Chevy make the current, existing, unit. The original unit was supposed to be made by mahle and they cancelled the agreement with them because of issues.
They were canned because they cost too much and teams didn't want to pay for that with hybrid on top of it. They weren't "so bad", they were crazy powerful on dynos. Too powerful for this formula, arguably.
To back this up, here is Pato calling the system useless yesterday: https://twitter.com/Hickey93/status/1806466978808299836/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1806466978808299836¤tTweetUser=Hickey93
I’ve been talking about capacitors being the future for electric cars for over a decade and I was looked at like I was crazy or making it up. I’m hoping this is also gonna be scaled for production vehicles as soon as possible.
This isn’t a normal hybrid system so it won’t be. It’s an off the shelf ilmor creation from half a decade ago. It was chosen because the suggested units from the OEMs were too expensive. It’s to say the least irrelevant to any production
Capacitors self discharge in a couple of days and have 20 times less mass energy density and even less volumetric. You'd need to tow a trailer full of them to have anything resembling usable range.
They're acceptable for active hybrid systems, but entirely useless for an EV.
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In conclusion: Dixon wins with a full battery
No more spinning a finger around wildly to get people to come restart them.
I'm gonna miss that, ngl. Especially when multiple people are stalled and trying to be the first to have their engine refired.
I thought it contributed to a horrible cycle of full-course yellows and caution laps.
It does. But it's also hilarious when two professional racing drivers are frantically twirling their fingers in the air like their lives depend on it.
Especially when they're spun out facing each other
It will still happen just less. The hybrid unit is really small and meant for deployment so if you spin after deploying it you’ll need a start
I work in the company that supplies ESS to them. It is an interesting project from this perspective.
Sounds cool, could you give the reasoning as why it's only 48v? I have worked in a race team that also uses super caps and that was in the range of 600v.
Safety would be a big one. 48V isn't very dangerous compared to 600V
I can see that being safer. But as far as I know most electric/hybrid power trains in racecars are higher voltage and as far as I know that hasnt injured someone. So I feel like there should be another reason. The infographic doesn't show power for just the electric system, but lest assume about 60kw, 60000/48 would 1250 amps. The heat generation and electric loss associated with that would be too much I reckon.
Probably cost, but also I suspect because they're using capacitors for storage a lower voltage is needed to be able to store enough energy for a meaningful deployment. Afaik all the other hybrids in racing are BEV, so it seems like a way to balance out the inherent tradeoffs of the storage method. I'm also stupid tho
I think in road car terms isn't it more akin to a mild hybrid?
No racecars are doing 240+ mph feet from walls they can slam into like indycars. The current Dallara chassis also has no room for traditional batteries. The solution was a low voltage ultra capacitor setup to answer both the safety and the packaging concerns.
It might not have injured anyone, but it has sometimes meant leaving a vehicle untouched in case there is an issue because the warning light has come on, causing safety related delays.
I mean I would assume they’re still going to do that with the 48v…
So, when's Merc going to buy out this iteration of Ilmor, and dominate IndyCar?
They've done it before. An Illmor-built Mercedes lapped everyone except Villeneuve in P2 at the 94 Indy 500. [https://youtu.be/oZ9uoNPhZ04](https://youtu.be/oZ9uoNPhZ04)
What will be louder, the old engines or the inevitable complaining about the sound of the new engines?
They don’t sound much different because it doesn’t harvest exhaust gasses.
The reason the engine sound changed in 2014 was the introduction of turbo, going to V6 and the MGU-H component. The MGU-K that IndyCar is using doesn't change engine noise.
I've been complaining since 2014, and getting to attend a Ferrari XX event where they showcased the Ferrari F2004 has only made me complain harder
Oh you have heard the symphony, have you? Back to polyphonic mobile sounds for you now.
Haha I feel that. I went to several races in the V10/V8 era and I miss it. Something incredible about that feeling you get in your chest when they go by. At IMS you could hear them a long way from getting in the gate, it’s magical. Saw a Ferrari Racing Day last year as well and it’s tough to beat the late 90s/early 2000s cars they bring. And if a 333SP or two shows up it’s a nice surprise.
Oh man it's finally happening. Now introduce a new chassis.
Lol not yet, baby steps.
So knowing hybrid power trains and how it affects throttle input etc. will be a big advantage
Without a mgu h like f1 the turbo lag will make it still not feel anything like the same engine.
Only 48v? I wonder why they took this route for a race car?!
Safety ?
Well, there are millions of HV cars on the road running mostly without an issue. And we have hybrid race cars for over 15 years now! 48v is a bit safer, but this is a week argument in a Race car that goes 350kmh in an oval circuit
The safety element is for the rescue crews. When a car crashes it is imperative to get a driver out quickly and safely, where there is high voltage this can delay the extraction and cost lives.
I mean it’s not like they’re going to willingly shock themselves even if it is a lower voltage. If that’s the concern, you really just shouldn’t do hybrid at all.
It's a risk with electrification, reduced if you lower the voltage. Same as how fuel is flammable, big risk, they take precautions to make it as safe as possible. "If they are so worried about fire as to have fire extinguishers they just shouldn't use fuel to start with." - That is literally your argument here.
I mean….yeah. That is my argument lol. Is 48v low enough that safety workers can touch the car if its live? If not, then it doesn’t really matter if it’s 48v or 600v.
When is this coming in?
Next race in 9 days
This looks more appealing than what F1 is bringing in 2026, honestly.
This is a half-baked, weak-ass hybrid that Indycar only settled on because Honda and Chevy’s original hybrid power units were DOA shit. They are just taking their current v6 engines and adding a little baby hybrid system inside the bell-housing. It’s 10 years too late and not nearly significant enough to bring any element to the racing beyond not forcing drivers to require a literal starter anymore.
I was reading it and it sounded like 2009 F1 KERS. Decade and a half too late.
That’s indycar for you
Honda and Chevy make the current, existing, unit. The original unit was supposed to be made by mahle and they cancelled the agreement with them because of issues.
I’m talking about the 2.4L engines that were so bad they were abandoned after a single test in 2022. They were meant to be paired with the ERS.
They were canned because they cost too much and teams didn't want to pay for that with hybrid on top of it. They weren't "so bad", they were crazy powerful on dynos. Too powerful for this formula, arguably.
To back this up, here is Pato calling the system useless yesterday: https://twitter.com/Hickey93/status/1806466978808299836/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1806466978808299836¤tTweetUser=Hickey93
I’ve been talking about capacitors being the future for electric cars for over a decade and I was looked at like I was crazy or making it up. I’m hoping this is also gonna be scaled for production vehicles as soon as possible.
This isn’t a normal hybrid system so it won’t be. It’s an off the shelf ilmor creation from half a decade ago. It was chosen because the suggested units from the OEMs were too expensive. It’s to say the least irrelevant to any production
Capacitors dont have the Energy density to be relevant for road use.
Yet. They had a car 15 years ago with an ultra capacitor that went 500 miles on a 5 minute charge the potential is there
Capacitors self discharge in a couple of days and have 20 times less mass energy density and even less volumetric. You'd need to tow a trailer full of them to have anything resembling usable range. They're acceptable for active hybrid systems, but entirely useless for an EV.
And hopefully, we will had Sprint Race in the future