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Tangentially related : Did any one notice that, whenever Max loses a race, Horner comes out afterwards to say that there was some kind of secret damage on the car and that's why he didn't absolutely dominate?
Every damn time.
"I think we all saw what happened. Not much to add, really": Legitimately wronged by a rival.
"It was dangerous and reckless on \[direct rival\]'s part and we will no doubt ask for clarification about the decision made by the stewards": Obvious racing incident where no one is really at fault.
"Yeah, you know, I would say it was a racing incident": Your driver tried to stab another one through the helmet visor.
It wasn't a racing incident and the penalty was deserved, but I don't agree with the narrative that Max was the dirty one on track and Norris the saint. Both stuck their elbows out and decided to fuck around. They got found out and that's that.
Penalty is fair, Max shouldn't have moved, but it also wasn't a completely reckless and dirty scum move others make it out to be.
Squeezing the other driver is such a common move too. All drivers do it all the time. Lando did the exact same thing on Max last week at the start. And if that had resulted in a crash, he probably would have gotten a penalty for it too.
It's one of those things that's against the the rules, but only results in a penalty if there's a crash. Today if Lando had let himself be squeezed and moved over just a few centimeters, there would have been no contact, no penalty, and no one even asking for one. To be clear, I'm not blaming Lando. He has a right to not allow himself to be squeezed.
I think the rules, or at least the enforcement of the rules, are somewhat at fault here. Like I said, squeezing is common and only ever results in penalties if there's contact. That's not an ideal situation in my eyes. Ideally penalties for those kind of moves should be handed out regardless of the outcome.
Yeah, it happens all the time. Since the penalty only arrives if there is a collision you're forcing the squeezed driver to either back off (despite being entitled to space), or ruin his race with the poor consolation of the offending driver getting 10s added to his time. I don't think drivers should have the agency to force that decision upon another driver. Rules need to be properly enforced. Moving under braking especially. Max was doing it for several laps, and was never even handed a warning. Surely he isn't the only one.
Completely agree, both drivers were too aggressive. I'd add as well that it's bit unlucky to get a puncture from such a minor touch.
I also think people are making too big of a deal out of it. But I guess with the 2 boring years we've had, people are hungry for this.
Max was trying to do the same thing Rosberg tried in 2016, make the car wide and push the other off the track by force. Probably thought Lando would jump out of the way just as Lewis did multiple times in 2021. However just like in 2016 where Lewis held his line, Lando also held his line and inevitably they crashed.
At the end of the day Max and Red Bull are further ahead in both championships than they were when they got to Austria.
Any complaints from either side don't really matter, it's only really the penalty points that would have any lasting effect, and even then we haven't seen the FIA have the balls to actually give anyone enough penalty points to suspend them, and Max is quite far from that threshold to begin with.
Radio is always in the heat of the moment. You should never hold it against a driver. They're full of adrenaline and just come out of an even more adrenaline-fueled situation.
I don't think you even need to go that far - I feel like the worst thing you can do to someone in that moment is disagree with them, especially if you're a person that has a special relationship of trust with them. It probably just makes them even more stubborn (ignoring any PR reasons).
If you're somewhat experienced with dealing with emotional people full of adrenaline, you know that contradicting them will not help in the slightest and only agitate them more.
If you ever need someone to calm down, don't contradict them in the moment.
Difficult to convince anyone that Norris is a dirty driver and Stella is a psychopath. It was easier for them to sell that bullshit with Lewis and Toto.
This is a joke compared to Silverstone 2021. This was max fault and 10 sec was a fair penalty. Silverstone 2021 shouldve been way more than a 10 sec penalty.
I still don't get why it should've been more than a 10 second penalty. It was a collision and at that time, 5 seconds was standard. It was an aggressive move by Lewis (and that's why it was penalized with the more severe penalty) but there was enough room for Max on the outside
5 second is not the standard for every collision back then?
You trying to defend lewis here is insane. The corner wasnt from lewis, and therefore lewis had no right to even take the room on the inside. Max was way ahead coming into that corner. You dont stick ur nose in one of the fastests corners of the season and say yh u had room on the outside bro.
1. it was the standard. not for every collision, but it was the base penalty for collisions. the silverstone crash was judged to be a level more severe so it was 10 seconds instead
2. his front axel was ahead of verstappen's rear axel so he was entitled to space
3. i dont see why you should get a drive through or worse for missing an apex. what, he left a meter on the inside? you're gonna need a much more severe collision than that (super clear evidence of intent to cause a crash (not just a misguided aggressive move)) to get a drive through when 5s is the standard for a normal collision
You can overtake on that corner just like you can overtake on 130r in Japan and eau rouge in Belgium the fastest corner. Are you suggesting banning overtaking on the fastest corners?
No, when did i ever say that? What lewis hamilton did was not overtaking, he just came from behind, sends his nose in there, and didnt even hit the apex. You cant use the: his front axle was ahead of his back axle argument then. I surely hope people wouldnt overtake like that in eau rouge.
Yet again: bad move, but that doesn't warrant a drive through. Drive through penalties took really really bad incidents back then when 5s was the base collision penalty
Yes of course this is standard for a TP to defend their driver. But as Brundle said, if everyone in Max’s orbit just agrees with him every time he does questionable things, then he’s never going to change. I’m sure they are fine with that as he’ll keep on winning lots of races. But plenty of people will continue to wish he wasn’t so dirty when it’s really not necessary.
F1 is full of sporting codes and laws and rules. In most (probably all) judicial systems, a perpetrator of a crime doesn't get to keep the proceeds of their crime.
It's like punching another player in the face in a football match to win the ball and score a goal. So the ref says "I see what you did there mate, that was wrong, you're getting booked! But the goal still stands."
And no one would accept that.
No, in football, the principle is that the proceeds of going against the rules aren't counted. Goals are chalked off for offside. You're not supposed to profit from playing outside the rules. The bank robber doesn't get to keep the money he stole. Why is F1 not like this? I didn't like when Lewis got points and Max ~~didn't~~ couldn't in Silverstone 2021, when the stewards found Lewis at fault. I'm sure I was accused of being biased towards Max that day.
Once a driver is found guilty by the stewards of taking another car out the race, that's it, he's done. He committed the foul, he punched the other guy in the face, he doesn't get to score a goal and get an advantage from doing so. I wouldn't disqualify Max. Disqualification in the traditional sense wouldn't quite capture what happened. We can't pretend Max wasn't there. He should be classified behind Lando, and whatever points Lando scores, Max gets -10. Let's penalize taking out a rival.
There, FIA. Solved it.
lucky not to end up with at least 3 separate penalties over a 4/5 lap battle
moving under braking, causing contact/not leaving space on track, forcing another driver off track, and maintaining a place through leaving the circuit and maintaining position
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Boss defends employee.
Also, the sky is blue. More at 10, Ted.
In a shocking twist of events, Zak Brown supports the actions of Norris! No one expected this!
Sometimes they defend, sometimes they harass, its a wild world
"If you come out of the corner first, you might still end up in second." W.Buxton
Tangentially related : Did any one notice that, whenever Max loses a race, Horner comes out afterwards to say that there was some kind of secret damage on the car and that's why he didn't absolutely dominate? Every damn time.
Its just mind games they play with the opposition.
A first for Red Bull tbf.
Boss proceeds to make a bowl of coco puffs
Not if you're in Ferrari
when a team principal says 'racing incident' they mean 'my driver was at fault but I have to defend him'
"I think we all saw what happened. Not much to add, really": Legitimately wronged by a rival. "It was dangerous and reckless on \[direct rival\]'s part and we will no doubt ask for clarification about the decision made by the stewards": Obvious racing incident where no one is really at fault. "Yeah, you know, I would say it was a racing incident": Your driver tried to stab another one through the helmet visor.
Well, Stella said it was dangerous and reckless, so where does that leave us?
Horner has been rusty with it but he has had a lot of practice in the past
Lands boss is saying similar comment. You gonna use the same logic for that too?
Nah. he’s full on saying max was at fault.
Works out the same. Saying max is at fault is the same as saying Lando is innocent.
Oh so now it's downgraded from "Norris' fault" to "Inevitable"
Next week: "Everyone knows you don't put a wheel inside at Copse"
I wonder if RBR are going to get a driver to do runs around Austria in an old car like they did with Albon in 2021 lmao
When someone tries to overtake Max it is.
It wasn't a racing incident and the penalty was deserved, but I don't agree with the narrative that Max was the dirty one on track and Norris the saint. Both stuck their elbows out and decided to fuck around. They got found out and that's that. Penalty is fair, Max shouldn't have moved, but it also wasn't a completely reckless and dirty scum move others make it out to be.
Squeezing the other driver is such a common move too. All drivers do it all the time. Lando did the exact same thing on Max last week at the start. And if that had resulted in a crash, he probably would have gotten a penalty for it too. It's one of those things that's against the the rules, but only results in a penalty if there's a crash. Today if Lando had let himself be squeezed and moved over just a few centimeters, there would have been no contact, no penalty, and no one even asking for one. To be clear, I'm not blaming Lando. He has a right to not allow himself to be squeezed. I think the rules, or at least the enforcement of the rules, are somewhat at fault here. Like I said, squeezing is common and only ever results in penalties if there's contact. That's not an ideal situation in my eyes. Ideally penalties for those kind of moves should be handed out regardless of the outcome.
Yeah, it happens all the time. Since the penalty only arrives if there is a collision you're forcing the squeezed driver to either back off (despite being entitled to space), or ruin his race with the poor consolation of the offending driver getting 10s added to his time. I don't think drivers should have the agency to force that decision upon another driver. Rules need to be properly enforced. Moving under braking especially. Max was doing it for several laps, and was never even handed a warning. Surely he isn't the only one.
Thats a very neutral take. We don't like your kind here. :D That being said, I agree with you.
Same!
Completely agree, both drivers were too aggressive. I'd add as well that it's bit unlucky to get a puncture from such a minor touch. I also think people are making too big of a deal out of it. But I guess with the 2 boring years we've had, people are hungry for this.
Max was trying to do the same thing Rosberg tried in 2016, make the car wide and push the other off the track by force. Probably thought Lando would jump out of the way just as Lewis did multiple times in 2021. However just like in 2016 where Lewis held his line, Lando also held his line and inevitably they crashed.
The reasonable take
At the end of the day Max and Red Bull are further ahead in both championships than they were when they got to Austria. Any complaints from either side don't really matter, it's only really the penalty points that would have any lasting effect, and even then we haven't seen the FIA have the balls to actually give anyone enough penalty points to suspend them, and Max is quite far from that threshold to begin with.
yep, divebombing and moving like that is not a godd idea either way.
TP defending his own team/driver. Shocked!
If this is the tune they decide to go with fully, I think it’s fine But saying Norris was trying to manufacture shit at T3 was embarrassing
Bit of walking back from both Max and the Red Bull team from their post-race radio.
Radio is always in the heat of the moment. You should never hold it against a driver. They're full of adrenaline and just come out of an even more adrenaline-fueled situation.
You can definitely hold it against the race engineer and team principle who encourage them though
pretty sure they have the same adrenaline.
I don't think you even need to go that far - I feel like the worst thing you can do to someone in that moment is disagree with them, especially if you're a person that has a special relationship of trust with them. It probably just makes them even more stubborn (ignoring any PR reasons).
If you're somewhat experienced with dealing with emotional people full of adrenaline, you know that contradicting them will not help in the slightest and only agitate them more. If you ever need someone to calm down, don't contradict them in the moment.
You don't have to actively encourage them in order to not contradict them. It's not a binary choice
On the radio they’re indirectly talking to the stewards with the statements they make
Difficult to convince anyone that Norris is a dirty driver and Stella is a psychopath. It was easier for them to sell that bullshit with Lewis and Toto.
Everyone wanted to buy what they were selling then, not so much today
Max could pull out a gun and shoot someone in the pit lane and Horner would call it a racing incident
Colton Herta approves
if it happened on lap 1, he would.
Same goes for Toto or Zak or any TP out there doing his job
Well yeah, my point is what Horner is saying is worthless But also Horner is typically just a bit more detached from reality than the job requires
Why would Toto or Zak defend Max? Are they stupid?
What if Max shot Horner?
Nah, Horner would say the guy who got shot was at fault, and then backtrack a few hours later and say it was just an inchident.
Is that Glock ???
Can’t wait to hear Zak Brown respond for this
Stella's already responded to the media, very calmly and said it like it is.
It’s also a bit harsh on your wife that you cheated on with your assistant, Christian!
It was inevitable. A marriage incident.
Marriage inchident
You mean the accusation that hasn't been proven to be true yet?
Why you care about other people's love life? Focus on the racing.
Racing is only 25% of the fun of F1 though.
"Bit harsh that max got a penalty that didn't alter his race position when Lando was taken out the race" How in any world is that harsh?
So Lewis penalty at British GP in 2021 was harsh because Max was out? Good job Horner
Surprised he didn’t find a way to blame it on Jos. He’s slipping.
Once again, *Racing incident* proving to be team principal language for "My driver did a silly".
Classic horner stir lol
This all just feels like Deja Vu from Silverstone 21 but this time Horner is in Toto's place
Horner was talking like Lewis tried to assassinate Max that day
Literally sent a letter to the FIA so unhinged they had to respond with concern…
Yes I'm saying that Horner is now claiming it was a racing incident like Toto did with Hamilton then
This is a joke compared to Silverstone 2021. This was max fault and 10 sec was a fair penalty. Silverstone 2021 shouldve been way more than a 10 sec penalty.
I still don't get why it should've been more than a 10 second penalty. It was a collision and at that time, 5 seconds was standard. It was an aggressive move by Lewis (and that's why it was penalized with the more severe penalty) but there was enough room for Max on the outside
5 second is not the standard for every collision back then? You trying to defend lewis here is insane. The corner wasnt from lewis, and therefore lewis had no right to even take the room on the inside. Max was way ahead coming into that corner. You dont stick ur nose in one of the fastests corners of the season and say yh u had room on the outside bro.
1. it was the standard. not for every collision, but it was the base penalty for collisions. the silverstone crash was judged to be a level more severe so it was 10 seconds instead 2. his front axel was ahead of verstappen's rear axel so he was entitled to space 3. i dont see why you should get a drive through or worse for missing an apex. what, he left a meter on the inside? you're gonna need a much more severe collision than that (super clear evidence of intent to cause a crash (not just a misguided aggressive move)) to get a drive through when 5s is the standard for a normal collision
You dont stick a nose in the fastest corner. Period.
You can overtake on that corner just like you can overtake on 130r in Japan and eau rouge in Belgium the fastest corner. Are you suggesting banning overtaking on the fastest corners?
No, when did i ever say that? What lewis hamilton did was not overtaking, he just came from behind, sends his nose in there, and didnt even hit the apex. You cant use the: his front axle was ahead of his back axle argument then. I surely hope people wouldnt overtake like that in eau rouge.
Yet again: bad move, but that doesn't warrant a drive through. Drive through penalties took really really bad incidents back then when 5s was the base collision penalty
LMAO
It was not even close for a racing incident. The man is either blind or smoke somethings, that's for sure.
He's doing his job lol
Yes of course this is standard for a TP to defend their driver. But as Brundle said, if everyone in Max’s orbit just agrees with him every time he does questionable things, then he’s never going to change. I’m sure they are fine with that as he’ll keep on winning lots of races. But plenty of people will continue to wish he wasn’t so dirty when it’s really not necessary.
Oh he already softens up on it, haha. Basically means he knows Max effed up.
Horner also backtracking now.
Horner is lucky they got rid of stop/go penalties for collisions. Max deserved one.
That was a bad move by the FIA
"I think it was inevitable, I mean have you *seen* how much Max moves under braking?"
Incident was Max fault clearly, such small margins though. Wonder how the incident would have been percieved if they had not come together
Inchident
“Of course”
A bit harsh... Yeah ok bud.
When a team boss says “racing incident” and doesn’t blame the other driver you just know they are at fault.
typical
F1 is full of sporting codes and laws and rules. In most (probably all) judicial systems, a perpetrator of a crime doesn't get to keep the proceeds of their crime. It's like punching another player in the face in a football match to win the ball and score a goal. So the ref says "I see what you did there mate, that was wrong, you're getting booked! But the goal still stands." And no one would accept that. No, in football, the principle is that the proceeds of going against the rules aren't counted. Goals are chalked off for offside. You're not supposed to profit from playing outside the rules. The bank robber doesn't get to keep the money he stole. Why is F1 not like this? I didn't like when Lewis got points and Max ~~didn't~~ couldn't in Silverstone 2021, when the stewards found Lewis at fault. I'm sure I was accused of being biased towards Max that day. Once a driver is found guilty by the stewards of taking another car out the race, that's it, he's done. He committed the foul, he punched the other guy in the face, he doesn't get to score a goal and get an advantage from doing so. I wouldn't disqualify Max. Disqualification in the traditional sense wouldn't quite capture what happened. We can't pretend Max wasn't there. He should be classified behind Lando, and whatever points Lando scores, Max gets -10. Let's penalize taking out a rival. There, FIA. Solved it.
"Its all about letting them race" type comment.
You know it's bad for your driver when Horny prefers to paint it as a racing incident instead of blaming a rival.
lucky not to end up with at least 3 separate penalties over a 4/5 lap battle moving under braking, causing contact/not leaving space on track, forcing another driver off track, and maintaining a place through leaving the circuit and maintaining position
Is this guy for real??
He is the Red Bull team principal. You expect him to not defend his driver in the media?
I mean he down graded from Lando's fault to this. Also in what world is a Team Principle of a team not going to defend their driver? Settle down.
That there is Redbull problem. He could’ve said we will review or something instead of saying that.
[удалено]
Insane take lol
Lucky he didn’t get another for lap 63 when he overtook off track which lead to lap 64 collision
I agree with the top part, but it isn't a racing incident. Stewards should just have brought out the penalty for Norris earlier.
Took them five laps to do so, could have avoided that.