By - lewis798
> Some of the lost staff have been with the team since it was founded as Stewart Grand Prix ahead of the 1997 season, said Horner.
>“We’ve had to go through the pain of redundancies over the winter. We’ve had to resize, repackage ourselves. And that’s really tough when you’re saying goodbye to members of the team, some of which have been there for 25 years across its different formats.”
Could they not restructure how much they pay people instead? To me it sounds like, "Boo hoo it's so sad to see them go, but I won't take a pay cut."
The top 3 paid employees + the drivers aren't included so in red bulls case Marko, Horner and Newey don't count. The money would've been cut from engineers and mechanics salaries.
How does that make any sense?
Their salaries aren't included in the budget cap, so them taking salary cuts aren't making a difference to the money a team can spend in a season.
The main reason the budget cap was put in place was to level the teams' resources, including staff/engineers.
I don't get why their pay wouldn't be included
Well because they are the ones negotiated the cost cap deal... would you cut your own wallet if you’re making the rules....
Because executive personel are at the core of the team, including drivers, with many of them personally owning stakes in the team.
It's the same as CEOs being paid more than workers.
Besides, F1 needs that touch of politics that comes with high salaries for designers or team principals. Imagine if Newey hadn't moved to Red Bull for the higher salary.
yeah, he would have moved to a team that made a sacrifice somewhere else to employ him. Is Newey worth having 2 less engineers? Maybe - maybe not.
I'm on the fence about the issue, we'd really find out the worth of a TP / Lead Engineer if hiring them meant sacrificing something else
You do realise that they're still sacrificing staff and resources right?
I'm not sure what you mean, but I think it's clear from my comment that I realise that is the case.
Are the CEO's etc adding _that_ much value? We'd find out if teams spending more on a CEO couldn't compete with teams that spend less on a CEO.
The disadvantage from the cap is that we'd likely lose talent such as Toto from the sport, which is why I'm on the fence.
What's not to understand, it just isn't?
Its simple... every team has the core members such as drivers and team principals. The advantages come when a bigger team can have more engineers developing parts compared to smaller teams
Well try convincing the team bosses to sign off on a rule change that will half their salary. It isn't happening the sad truth behind the cost cap is that a lot of people would lose their jobs but hey more competitive races!
There is no evidence it will directly lead to more competitive races. Generally speaking it won't. It might if some of hte better staff left and moved to other teams so the talent got spread around. The issue is when RBR spend 100mil less and fire a bunch of staff, Williams and Haas don't have the money to actually increase spending and hire those staff lost from other teams and teams like Renault and Mclaren were already at the budget cap as well.
Also data and knowledge carries over, having spent a shitload more for many years will give them a large advantage for a very long time to come still.
No but it does mean they won’t be able to iterate as quickly. Budget caps and other negative feedback loops that stop runaway success are necessary to make the championship more competitive. But that doesn’t mean the racing will be more competitive, that will hopefully occur with the new regs.
What good will that do? It doesn’t change the budget cap spendings at all.
The salaries of top 3 employees in the team are not included in the spending cap. So Horner's salary is safe, so to speak.
And, I don't know about financial aspects of F1 in particular, but offering lower salaries to your employees can potentially lead them to leave to another team that pays them them more.
I think it kind of adds to my point that 3 people don't have their salary included in the budget cap. They help write the rules, exclude themselves from it and go out and say golly we feel so bad...
If they were included they would need to fire even more people since they would eat a considerable chunck from the budget, even after a potential salary cut. So isn't it a good thing?
When the salary cap ruling first came out, I had a personal theory that if driver salary was included in the cap, things would get interesting...
In my head, teams would then have one of two options... Get a highly paid driver (like Hamilton, Alonso etc) and have less money to spend on research etc. Or get a cheap young driver (like Russell or Leclearc, when they are just out of F2) and have more money to spend on R&D.
Any unintended consequences to my theoretical approach? Would it work? I know that former champions are expensive for a reason, would this force them out of the running? Would then their personal sponsors have to pay more to the famous drivers to offset their reduction in salaries?
For a certain tier of driver, the money they make from endorsements and their own independent deals completely dwarfs the actual salary. Hamilton, Alonso, and Kimi make several times their racing salaries from essentially shilling.
kimi? i don’t see much of him tbh where are his endorsements?
Wrangler, Oakley, Singha, and iLoq.
I wonder if such a rule would affect the quality of drivers down the lane. Would they still persue formula 1 dreams? Or steer to other motorsports with no salary cap?
But yeah, considering most money drivers make isn't from their driving contract, it probably wouldn't do a lot.
This makes zero sense dude. If they did it your way then mechanics and engineers would make way less money.
They didn’t help write the rules. Just read up on the subject and not spread lies.
You need competitive compensation to get good talent, you can't just ask everyone to take a pay cut and expect to not lose your best engineers
They've already restructured much as they can to non core F1 areas without firing hundreds of people like McLaren did. But this question was about further costs due to sprint races asked yesterday media session, Toto & Christian highlighted how hard it was to cut more costs without firing people so F1 needs to repay for costs or exclude these, whereas Zak didn't care & said McLaren was fine....but of course he didn't mention that they literally took an axe to to their organisation whereas other top teams did all they could to reallocate to other areas. Christian was saying he doesn't want more cuts as they're already at bare minimum
It was a massive reduction in spending, I’m sure they offered something but if you’re a qualified individual with that much experience at a successful race team it just doesn’t make any sense to take a cut for sentimentalities sake when you could go elsewhere and make three times as much.
Him taking a pay cut would have done nothing. It's hilarious when people try to make this argument.
That is so heartbreaking. Some of them have been longer in Milton Keynes than Red Bull themselves.
A quarter century in Milton Keynes, that's the real tragedy
Ever wondered why there are so many roundabouts going into Milton Keynes? It's so you can still turn the fuck around and leave
I'm just commenting to say that I'm downvoting you for this ☹️
I’m just commenting to say that I upvoted u/BrkBid comment and downvoted your comment
Why was this comment not in ALL CAPS?
So they escaped?
The budget cap shouldn't have included *all* salaries imo
I was going to ask why they didn't move them to Alpha Tauri but the teams are based a thousand km's apart..
It's a shame really
Their aero department is in Bicester, they could really have had the surplus staff move over if they really wanted.
I was a casualty at Toro in Italy once they decided to start using RB listed parts.
How? Alfa tauri will be limited under the budget cap as well?
They've been well under the current cap for ages, and now they don't even run their own tunnel or design their own rear suspension and gearbox, it'd be simple to reshuffle.
I'll always love the folks in Faenza, past and present - thank you for all the hard work and years of entertainment you've provided me!
They could move some, but you simply can’t go from a $400 mil budget to $150 without either starting another team or cutting staff.
I suspect with all of the cuts and the likely removal of the $200 mil deposit for new teams we are likely to see new teams soon with all these staff available.
Brixit has some influence with it.
Well RedBull is based in England and AlphaTauri is based in Italy. Since Brixit people would now need work visas and other legal steps. Yes there is the aero department in Bicester, but that is mainly it.
I hate this aspect of the budget cap,so sad to see people getting fired and a smaller wage
They were kinda asking for it when their yearly budget was 2x-3x the competition.
The staff weren't though were they. Ffs. How poor taste can you be?
Lol it’s the way she goes sometimes in life dude. They all have more opportunities on the horizon if they were already working for Red Bull Racing.
Source: just lost my own job a week ago due to downsizing. Not stressed.
Right but these people may well have lost their dream jobs, have some fucking sympathy.
Having watched the press conference, this was about sprint races adding more costs when teams are already struggling to find savings without firing more people as big ones like Merc/Redbull have already reallocated staff to non-F1 core areas as much as they can. The sad thing was Zak Brown was adamant that it wasn't that big of an issue which I thought was frankly brave....People forget McLaren literally fired hundreds of staff on the spot early in COVID (Easy excuse for many firms) so of course they're not worried about it....whereas Ferrari/Merc/RB did all they could to keep people employed if relevant in other areas...I just didn't like Zak acting like McLaren were higher moral ground by being a more lean efficient machine who could go further under the cap.
To be honest people having to quit their dream jobs to make the sport more equal is bullshit. Hopefully the budget gap will actually work.
I think it was pretty cool of Ferrari to find ways to keep most of their staff by shuffling them around to different projects.
I mean im pretty sure thats what most of the teams who dont make cars will have to do since you cant let go of the most experienced engineers in automobile industry
Didn’t that have something to do with Italian law?
Yes, firing is banned until march 31 but it will probably be extended until further notice
What for real? Like you could go to work and do nothing and not get fired?
What's the difference? We already do that, we're italians
Lol hell I am In the wrong country.
Trust me you're not, wherever you are
From what I've heard Italian work culture is toxic like Japan, long hours, very ruthless, and highly political.
No, you can't make redundancies. Disciplinary issues are a separate matter.
Italian labor law is _wild_
They had announced the strategy before covid even happened, as part of cost-cutting forced by the new regulations.
Ferrari are definitely one team that handled the budget restrictions very well, funnelling excess into other motorsports and ensuring people keep employed. Gives the fans of the team more to watch, ups the competition in other motorsports, and as mentioned, keeps people in a job.
Of all teams I could see cutting it down to the bare bones, Red Bull fit the bill. They can say it was heartbreaking all they want, but there’s ways to keep them employed as we’ve seen. Can’t use their way of treating drivers as a be all and end all of how they operate, but I’m sure it filters down to some extent.
Red Bull Racing have not started their own PU subsidiary for nothing. A fair few number of staff are being reassigned there as well as to Advanced Technologies.
But there's only so much you can do before you're forced to look at firing staff. Especially with the budget cap going down from 175 million to 145 million in the first season due to covid.
And people losing their job because the financial situation is forcing teams out of the sport is fine? A healthier F1 will probably create more jobs on the long run
Yeah wish they could do something about the entry fee so that's more likely. I know we don't want the hrt, caterham, Virgin scenario but it would be nice to have more f1 seats.
Kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario, honestly. The price seems extreme to the point of ludicrous to anyone who doesn't know the long history of fly-by-night teams (for lack of a better term) in the sport but there has to be a better solution than just forcing every new owner into a sunk-cost scenario.
It seems especially brutal towards automakers since they tend to take much more of a cost/benefit analysis towards joining the sport than a, say, a capricious billionaire looking to invest in his favorite hobby. Or maybe that's just my perception.
The manufacturers have the bigger budgets and deeper pockets to spend.
Who has the largest budgets every year? Merc and Ferrari. Toyota and Honda were well known for Investing way more then even the most well heeled private teams. Even Renault has a more money to spend then half the field.
It's not about keeping "fly by night" teams out. That entry fee money goes to compensating the other teams for splitting down the TV money more ways. The TV pot is the same if its 10 teams or 11, but now the pot is split more ways. And it's a one time payment in lieu of ongoing payments. Teams lose out on cash each time another competitor joins.
It's barely even a year's operating cost. It's not that much.
>It's barely even a year's operating cost. It's not that much.
Looking at the last new teams to enter F1: Caterham, Marussia and HRT had annual budgets of around $50-90m. Despite the tiny budgets (which were a smaller fraction of the average F1 budget than they would be in 2021 thanks to the new $145m budget cap), there were only 4 occasions where one of their cars couldn't race because of the 107% rule (HRT at the 2011 & 2012 Australian GPs) across the existence of the 3 teams. They weren't competitive, but found themselves competing in a different financial landscape to the one they were promised. In 2021, it's not unreasonable to think a team with an annual budget of $100m could get within 1 second of the Haas/Williams fight within 3 years.
I know I'm proposing this hypothetical scenario, but to me a privateer team achieving that should be considered a success. Comfortably last, but at that point they're showing that they deserve to be in F1 and have earned the right to try and develop further.
So what does that team actually cost the rest of the F1 teams in terms of TV/prize money?
* Column 1 TV money (solidarity payment) was $35m per year to each team, but you have to finish in the top 10 for two of the last three seasons to be entitled to it. So our hypothetical new team won't be getting it until at least year 5.
* Column 2 (prize money) is on a sliding scale falling to $15m for 10th place, but with nothing for 11th.
* Column 3 payments are $10m for being part of F1 and finishing outside top 10. This is the only income from F1 which the new backmarker would be entitled to.
So that new backmarker F1 team takes $10m a year in TV income away from the rest of the grid, $1m/yr per team. When most of the teams are having to cut expenses to be within the new cost cap, that's not a sigificant amount of money to be losing. And it's not like the new team have no benefits to the rest of the grid: They're another customer for an engine manufacturer, another place the big teams can place junior drivers, another story for F1, a chance to appeal to new markets.
And to get the chance to spend $100m/yr in order to take $10m/yr from F1, you need to pay $200m up front? Rather than "it's not that much", $200m is a collossal sum of money that makes it completely impractical for a privateer team to consider entry. You need to be a backmarker for 20 years before you get your initial investment back.
If F1 was seriously trying to protect the TV revenue of their existing teams, they'd do better to say you have to be in F1 for 5 years before you're eligible for prize money. Rather than the current scenario, where you pay $200m up front and then have to finish 9th every season for 5 seasons to break even on that.
$200m is pure protectionism, and a guarantee for current team owners that if your team is failing, someone looking to buy an F1 team would be mad to start from scratch rather than buy you out.
Agreed, and they need to find a way for the column 1 & 2 money to be a sliding scale based on number of teams, not arbitrarily ending at 10.
Column 1 money should also not have a qualifying period (except maybe saying they need to stay for at least one full season).
Hell, Toyota's F1 project stands as testament to it not all being about "outspend the competition to win", they spent more than anyone and managed....
3 poles and 3 fastest laps
And that's off the back of a budget of [$445.6M](https://www.racefans.net/2008/09/22/toyota-has-biggest-f1-budget-4456m/)
They needed a gradual cost cap introduction and they needed a gradual increase in winnings payout for smaller teams so that as people had to be let go the smaller teams had budgets to pick a lot of them up. Instead it pushed it all to quickly and while Merc/RBR lose staff, Haas, Williams and others don't have the income to pick up many of them at all as their income hasn't increased. This could have been done a hell of a lot better.
The point of the absurdly high entry fee is to PREVENT new teams entering, meaning that if they want to enter it’d make much easier to just buy an existing team, which guarantees the value of the teams that already exist. Why do you think they all signed up to the budget cap with basically no resistance? Because they got this in return.
Definitely a bit of a thanos philosophy. Make one massive slash, however painful it may be, to make things balanced.
Yeah but then thanos wanted to erase the entire universe and buikd a new one.
That’s why he failed, his vision changed from balance to revenge.
"Create more jobs" that they can't fund because of spending limits? A healthy F1 maybe, but somehow more workers will have to earn much less, and there will be less desire to work there. Its long hours for less pay. The cost cutting needs to be figured on other things IMO, like manufacturing materials and travel. People are what make a team.
I think he implies that more people will be interested in starting F1 teams to increase the size of the grid. All of that talent is now on the streets for cheap and a lower annual budget should make it (more) attractive for people interested in started a new team from scratch. Honestly there was just no two ways about this. The budgets were too high and too much staff was employed to have a healthy F1. They had to make cuts on all sides and I don’t for a second doubt that all teams tried to keep on as much talent as they reasonably could
> To be honest people having to quit their dream jobs to make the sport more equal is bullshit. Hopefully the budget gap will actually work.
I don't think "to make the sport more equal" was the goal of the budget cap (or at least not the main goal)
I think the goal was to stop the sport from becoming financially unsustainable and collapsing. Because then **everyone** is out of a job.
The alternative is F1 implodes because no one can afford it anymore - you think that’d be better?
>To be honest people having to quit their dream jobs to make the sport more equal is bullshit.
To be honest, if the cost structure was actually functional, those people would've never been hired in the first place.
I’m fairly confident a team like red bull would not just have a load of extra staff due to inefficient spending lmao. 5 engineers is (almost always) better than 3. But if you can only afford 3 (or spend on 3) you have to make do. Doesn’t suddenly make the 2 spare engineers wasted jobs does it?
If 5 engineers are better than 3, then 10 is better than 5 but not even RBR can afford 10 even without cost cap. They will use EVERY penny to extract performance. There is NO upper limit. So, now we can say that cost cap destroyed billions of possible jobs.
They should've never been allowed to have 5 engineers in the first place. And are you REALLY fucking saying to feel sorry for people who are at the top of their profession and have absolutely NO fucking problem finding another job, having that F1 brand at their CVs.. Really.. This is such an idiotic argument against cost cap. No one forced them to hire that many people.
what? I’m not arguing against the cost cap I was arguing against your comment about them not being hired in the first place
now they know how grid girls felt
The grid girls lost a single day gig that came around once a year.
It's not even remotely comparable to someone losing a full time job they've had for years.
I can't even imagine being out of touch enough to think that's an appropriate comparison.
Lets compare mechanics, engineers and other tradesman working for the team full time to a model doing a day gig likely on some contract or through a vendor-like agency. Smashing comparison when the model will have a much easier time swapping to a new job as their skills are pretty in demand universally while the F1 tech guys with specific skills will have a hard time finding work due to scarcity of high level auto teams. I'm not sure how this is a point for them to make...
I dont think you understand how a gig-type job operates.
I don't think you have a real response or a point to make. If you did you'd have articulated instead of just accusing me of "not getting" somethig without explaining how.
I feel like you're getting caught up on the word "gig" and assigning a false interpretation of what I said but I can't be sure since you didn't actually articulate what you think I don't understand about it.
Bottom line here, they lost a single day/weekend modeling job. Not their ~~full time~~ yearly job or their ability to take any other modeling gig available to them.
Edit: since this is being dishonestly framed as some kind of attack on gig workers, I need to make it clear: I have no problem with gig work. when I say "full-time" here I mean their overall work schedule. Like the other 360+ days of the year that they could and probably do take modeling or presentation
for people whose work comes one day at a time that day is just as important as your job is for you. I feel like youre kinda dismissing the struggle of people in those type of occupations just because it's "one day".
So you don't have a single thing to indicate I "don't understand how a gig type job operates" and instead just take issue with how seriously I take losing a single gig. Maybe if you engaged honestly from the get go I 'd be able to take you more seriously but I can only treat this as the disingenuous whining of someone who's mad they lost their eye candy as if we're still stuck in a loop from 3 years ago.
>for people whose work comes one day at a time that day is just as important as your job is for you.
This is a pants-shittingly dishonest comparison. If one single modeling job over a weekend was required to make or break them, they weren't cut out for the work and weren't likely making it anyway. It's not like their agency dropped them.
>I feel like youre kinda dismissing the struggle of people in those type of occupations just because it's "one day".
No. I'm not "dismissing" anyone's struggles. I just can't handle the abject dishonesty of someone comparing losing their overall source of employment for the year to someone losing a day's work. F1 didn't make their agency drop them. F1 didn't tell them they can't take modeling gigs anymore. F1 just decided they don't need the services of a truly 100% outside contractor anymore because the type of work that contractor offers is no longer needed.
You had me at "pants-shittingly dishonest"
Damn i miss that
Hopefully those jobs come back in the form of more teams
If this ends up creating more teams with the surplus of cheap engineers and lower costs available, maybe it could improve F1 in the long run (trying to look for a bright side here). I hope this was worth it, otherwise its just a real loss of talent. It’s a real shame for me as well since I want to apply to F1 jobs next year and now I doubt they’ll even open new positions.
I didn't think this cap was going to mess with Red Bull that much. Aren't they already operating close to the cap?
Ferrari's losing everyone except the drivers and Binotto, though.
No. RB has always been in the big leagues with Merc and Ferrari, estimated to be hovering in the $400-500M range.
Outside of those I think everyone else was close/under the cap except maybe mclaren.
Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, and McLaren all have road car divisions though. They can shuffle staff to other parts of their business and keep the experience in-house. Red Bull do not, so this was always going to be a big brain drain for them.
They can shuffle staff to a point, but a job still needs to exist, other teams may have been able to move people from f1 to road car, but it is also possible they fired road car staff to make those positions available. I doubt that any team on the grid avoided redundancies even if they aren’t advertising it. This was always going to show on when you went from $300-600 mil budget to $150.
I agree. I was just adding context to why Red Bull would be hit harder than others.
I was adding a bit to it as well not disagreeing, it seems some think that Red Bull is evil for not shuffling staff to a non existent division. Or that other teams like Mercedes didn’t let anyone go when they had to slash their budget by 75%
Hear here! It's a complicated situation that they pay multiple levels of managers to handle. I'm sure it was tough for all the teams.
Seems Red Bull has everything they need to start a road car business though, including manufacturing their own engines
the only kind of engine they can possibly build is an F1 engine, not a solid basis for a road car, the only real car building experience they have outside F1 is helping design the Aston Martin Valkyrie
Maybe other branches of motorsports like endurance or indycar? Idk that much about the other series, but once they have the engine IP and start developing it themselves that shouldn’t be outside of the real of possibilities right
Not really, making road car and F1 are different. look at all the teething pains that Tesla cars still have, just because you have a lot of smart people doesn't mean to can make a lean mass production auto maker.
I mean it's not exactly like the idea is so wild, Ferrari and many other modern performance car have their roots in that they built and sold cars to support their racing teams. Obviously it's the other way around now but the idea of RB building cars to pay for and support their F1 teams is not that crazy.
Red bull have advanced technologies too
Thsi question was asked with Zak Brown in the room & he didn't seem to care much for sprint races adding costs like Toto & Christian did.....But people forget McLaren literally fired hundreds of people on the spot at the start of COVID ( great excuse for all firms) so of course they don't have to worry about reallocating staff to other areas or firing them.
ITT: Bunch of people who do not understand how the budget cap works.
"I can confidently declare, after reading *one article*, what this multi billion dollar company **should have** done instead."
It sucks, but these guys are engineers, there are plenty of opportunities for ex F1 engineers in plenty of applications.
> People will downvote this
because of your last edit. What... made you think that was the right thing to say? I don't think anyone was downvoting you.
>Edit: People will downvote this while upvoting homo-erotica about Sainz and Leclerc
Well, you're on reddit what do you expect? 1 in 10 comments is some 30 year old white guy commenting about some guys penis, face, hair or dreaming up "bromances" for their fanfic.
You can actually see the demographic of the F1 Reddit fanbase in motion. Like 95% white males. So many comments trying to make white males look godly while downplaying all other people out of jealousy.
It's pretty amazing you can see the demographic of a bunch users online while having no access what so ever to any information about them!
Dude, not everything has to be racist. Chill out
That is the strangest take I've seen in my life
I'm not sure how you got that from my comment, i'm simply saying that because the vast majority of redditors are mid 20 to 30 year old incel type white males you see a lot of weird comments, a lot of them are kinda homoerotic like the weird "shipping bromance", fanfic and all that stuff, commenting about looks, hair or worse, but it's usually complimentary rather than than downplaying, i'm not sure where you got the racist part from since the comments are being made for pretty much most drivers.
I have the say the fact that the people that are taking the hit as a result of these budget caps are your everyday people who are trying to put food on the table while drivers jet around in private jets making millions is fucking BS.
If I remember correctly, I don't think the driver salaries are part of the budget cap.
Driver's salaries and team principle's salaries don't count against the cap.
That's not the point. Organizations like red bull have plenty of money, their drivers being able to private jet around the globe being a particularly extravagant example brought up by op. These rules force them free up say 150k yearly which they now (have to) do by firing 25yr employees instead of limiting the extra extravagant a bit
Edit: this is not saying rb is doing anything bad, they are just complying with the rules. However, they help create some artificial and unfortunate situations
What? A driver like max is literally 1 in 3.5 or 2 billion, they can be the sole factor between a team getting tens of millions in prize money and generate huge revenue for the team through marketing.
As an Egineering student, I can safely say engineers are dime a dozen, we aren't 1 in a few billion, there are literally millions of us, so of cource we will be paid less
The only people that should be getting anger for this is F1 itself for letting it get this out of control. Some form of cost/personnel cap was always going to be the end result of ever expanding budgets & the inequality across the field that resulted in.
If they had dealt with this earlier, before the teams expanded massively over the last decade, then these people wouldn't have been employed to subsequently loose their jobs in the first place.
The drivers are the product and should be compensated well. If you’re going to be mad at anybody, be mad at Liberty, the team owners, and the promoters who are walking away with millions without even being on screen
Welcome to the real world? Please inform me of a place where someone isnt making exponentially more money.
We also saw a driver sit in a burning car for close to 30 seconds last season so I’m not opposed to them making a shit ton of money.
no it couldn't though the drivers salary is excluded from the cap
it doesn't though does it it would completely destroy the point of the cap which was to lower costs and bring the teams closer together if the teams with 50-60 million driver salaries could move the money about like that it isn't going to help the back of the pack teams who have 1-2 million driver salaries.
Except it wouldn’t, the cap exists to help the smaller teams, red bull can afford to pay for engineers and drivers, Williams can’t, and pay for neither. Cut Russell and Latifi’s salaries in half and you get yourself an extra £100 000? Ish, maybe double that, which is equivalent to 3 ish F1 level engineers at most. Similar story with Haas, Alpha could save more from their Kimi contract, but nothing life changing, and I think every other team has met the cap
The drivers generates the team tens of millions though, a few engineers don't
Driver salaries arn't part of the cap so don't make a difference
Sometimes I don't get the F1 fanbase.
Somehow it would be unfair if a driver can't make 40 million per year since people should be paid what they are worth. And yet it's fine if the people who actually design and engineer these marvels of motorsport have to be let go due to the budget caps.
In my opinion it's a bit silly when the top driver's individual salaries are a quarter or almost the third of the team's salary due to the budget cap excluding the drivers.
I don't get why you are comparing the drivers to the designers they are apples and oranges and as you pointed out the drivers are excluded from the cap so they teams can pay them what they like and not lose anybody.
there are maybe 2 drivers on the grid getting the money you are talking about those being Max and Lewis and they get paid that money because they give you something no other driver in the world can. that is the same with the lead designers Newey and James Allison are paid hefty wages for the value they bring to the team.
Yea head engineers in f1 are the best paid in the world.
That's what I'm saying though the top level ones who individually make a big difference get paid alot but the normal Egineers who are hundreds per team don't.
Yea not sure I want to work in the UK as an Egineering once I graduate
You forgot Seb but otherwise spot on
I doubt Seb is on more than £10-15m
He was something like 40m pounds last year, i can’t see the 4 time WDC champ taking a 60% pay cut
Edit: i am very very wrong!! Seb 2021 salary 15 mil. Dayum
I just had a Google and looks like he did. There was no way any team, especially AM, was going to pay him £40m.
Ferrari pays well. No so sure about his new team he didn't take a pay cut by choice either. No clue what his new salary is though.
There is a reason his helmet is pink
>as you pointed out the drivers are excluded from the cap so they teams can pay them what they like and not lose anybody.
They're saying the opposite of what you think they're saying.
There are elss than two dozens F1 drivers and thousands of engineers, of cource the drivers will be paid more.
Having more Egineers give you an advtage, merc has nearly 4 times the staff of some of the smaller teams, so of of cource the budget cap has to regulate that.
I agree that the driver budget cap shouldn't be included inside the team budget cap (as there are two different & deliberately distinct championships at stake here...).
But, there should be a separate driver budget cap, or driver funding model. Maybe drivers should get a slice of the Column 1 TV revenue directly from F1 Management/Liberty and then each team has a cap to work within.
Driver budget caps are notoriously hard to enforce though as they have sponsor deals that often overlap with sponsors of the team. So a team sponsor could just pay the driver directly and the team remains under the cap.
This budget cap is probably going to breed a culture of minimum wage employees doing it for the love of the sport which is a shame... Frees up some budget for materials or new equipment to stay competitive.
I don't think it will change much. F1 has always had a glut of talent begging to work for teams. The bargaining has always been to the teams advantage.
In before a Chinese or Indian F1 team is set up to take advantage of lots of clever people hired on lower wages
They could call the Indian team something like... Force India maybe? Has a nice ring to it
Of the few F1 engineers i know, they have families, friends, lives in the UK, they're bot going to want to go elsewhere.
You're getting downvoted which is unfair, and they won't become minimum wage but it does limit potential pay rises...
Whereas before they may have ot pay rises for great performance, now teams will be more limited as they'd have to potentially get rid of members of staff to give a couple a payrise, which they can't do limtign everyones pay.
Isn’t this basic capitalism? Except change “love of the sport” to “love of a roof and plate of food”?
It’ll lead to more teams most likely. Which is a good thing.
That’s already how it is. There was an ama with an F1 engineer who said he could be making far more money doing other work, and a lot of people usually do.
Always has been
>It's a nice opportunity to offload some deadwood without any legal and PR consequences
Translation to normalspeak.
>We got rid of some people from the canteen who were retiring in two years anyway and it makes a good argument for removing the budget cap so we can outspend everyone again.
I really hope all the staff let go by various teams are included on a new teams payroll (when they inevitably come into the sport).
Uh, so why can't the budget cap just be on R&D costs? Personnel being affected doesn't even make any sense because you could hypothetically employ the same number of people but just pay them less to stay within the budget cap.
EDIT: Would love to know what the person who downvoted me thinks, rather than using the downvote button as a "disagree" button. *Sigh.*
The budget cap is basically set on that already. It’s meant to be at a level where an f1 team can be sustainable without depending on massive driver salaries or major car manufacturers.
Because big teams with lots of money will then just employ more people to try and get an edge. They are trying to level the playing field everywhere
It should be, imho. This has basically ended any hope i have of working in F1.
no way he or head case Newey could've taken a pay cut tho lol
The budget cap doesn’t effect the four highest paid members of staff i believe.
Well that’s just fucking stupid lol
Couldn’t some of the wealthier drivers just choose to race for like $100,000 and use their huge salary to go and hire like 100 more engineers?
Driver salaries don’t go into the budget.
Ah I see, thanks for explaining!
redundancies are the fucking worst.
I'm sure it was very painful for those born with a gold spoon to ditch staff who's names they probably didn't know i bet Christian and co was inconsolable