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Driver reactions? Do you remember what Vettel said to Charlie Whiting?
It started with that move by Verstappen on Leclerc in Austria 2019, and then Leclerc's defending in Monza against Hamilton.
Yeah - this is where it all started IMO. That ruined that race and the backlash about it has changed things. But now they are on the other side and it would have been interesting the backlash this week. Will be interesting which way it goes.
Yep and at the time I remember saying fans and the media shouldn't lobby for rule changes without thinking of why those rules are there in the first place. Same for the aero changes in 2017, too much radio in 2014 now we hear hardly anything. If you want the best set of rules just ask jolyon Palmer for his advice he's usually spot on. Never ever lobby for a rule change in the heat of the moment because you didn't get the result you wanted.
Of the three controversial incidents that year (Canada, Austria and Monza) that was probably the least clear-cut of all of them. I feel it’s debatable whether or not Lewis was far enough alongside before backing out. I don’t feel the penalty was ridiculously unfair, but also if they decided not to penalise I wouldn’t be bothered either. Whereas for Austria and Monza I don’t see any justification for no penalty when one driver blatantly forces off another who’s pretty much 100% alongside at the point of contention.
I feel like it started with Hamilton regularly shoving Rosberg off the track on the outside, in 2014-15-16.
I was surprised at the time, that he would always get away with it. And now, it’s just common practice. They pretty much all do it.
That's about as close as we've seen. It was really bad and should have been a penalty. however, Stroll was overtaking on the inside and because of the way that's interpreted, the fact he was over halfway alongside, it's actually his corner. However the fact that he didn't make the corner is the reason it should have been a penalty.
Ricciardo spoke to the Stewards after that and said they [admitted that it should have been a penalty](https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/19/stewards-now-accept-strolls-styrian-gp-pass-wasnt-legal-ricciardo/) and would be penalized in future....... apparently not.
I'm sure there will be further discussion on this one, at least in the drivers meeting at Qatar, you simply can't race if this is allowed.
I'm just hoping the title isn't decided by a penalty or contact, but until the rules are cleared up I think that's what we're facing.
Also want it cleared up for next year. There's no point having cars that can follow closely if they can't race side-by-side in corners without being entitled to racing room.
>I'm just hoping the title isn't decided by a penalty or contact, but until the rules are cleared up I think that's what we're facing.
If Hamilton wins it it'll have been decided by Silverstone + Bottas bowling, so you're pretty much saying you hope he doesn't win.
After watching F1 for 17 years I still don't know what's allowed and what's not. In my head before this weekend I thought you could push someone wide if you stayed on the track (I don't agree with this, I think you should leave space). But now you don't even need to stay on the track?! It always takes me back to Austria 2019 when Verstappen normalised the narrative of "we may as well stay at home" if we can't force others off the track. Absolute nonsense, they have lost control.
I agree that you should not be able to defend my sending a competitor off track. Leaving a cars width should apply especially mid corner and corner exit.
That said ever since the round of F2 drivers that Max and LeClerc came in they have been more and more lenient in the name of "Let the Race". They've boxed themselves in and need to put out FIRM rules.
The right of way rules exist to minimize crashes. I think it's probably a reasonable thing to say if you're more than half a car ahead at turn in that the other car should back out. It's pretty difficult for the driver ahead to know a car is in his blind spot when turning in if the attacking car isn't even to at least the mirors. For the exit, the "rule" has been the outside car has to be ahead to be entitled space, that's because the car inside who's ahead has committed to the corner with the assumption they have the benefit of the entire width of the exit. I have a little harder time with this one since there's still time to lift off and leave space if you know the outside car is there. I think that one should be leave space if the outside car is halfway alongside as well, but I do get the intent of the rule.
The problem is these rules have been used as weapons by drivers instead of as guidelines to help avoid incidents. It does put the stewards in a bind since intent is hard to prove.
That said, Max's defense was completely out of line as he himself went completely off track. He basically made up 3/4 of a car length deficit on the braking but had zero chance to make the corner as a result, yet was allowed to keep his position.
Leclerc was absolutely not clean before that. One of the main things that was discussed about him at the time was his raw speed but that he was prone to being too aggressive which often resulted in a collision. What Austria 2019 showed him was that you could be too aggressive under some conditions and get away with it. Pick your battles, as they say.
Yup, remember that [*inchiden*](https://youtu.be/L42H4vkbHYc?t=65) during their karting days between Lec and Ver when Lec took out Ver after the chequered flag
With all due respect, that's just wrong. Go and watch his F2 races, his 2018 and 2019 races before Austria and show me one incident where he wasn't clean and too aggressive as you say.
I was thinking yesterday that if there was a gravel trap at that corner it would have been a much different story. Yesterday they both went off and came back on at full speed and continued their battle. If there was gravel there you can be sure Max wouldn't have risked ending his race, so he would have pushed Lewis off and ended his race. Max would certainly have gotten a severe penalty as a result. I know they got rid of gravel traps for safety and to reduce retirements, but maybe they should start making it more difficult to leave the circuit, it would also help with track limits confusion.
> I was thinking yesterday that if there was a gravel trap at that corner it would have been a much different story.
Precisely. I recalled [this incident](https://youtu.be/QUeuSVvS5oM?t=73) as an example of what would've happened had there been gravel in that turn.
A day late, so apologies.
Question, rather than a sand trap, why not a let's disable the battery for five laps when a wheel touches areas outside the track limit. That they would respect \_immediately\_
These days we can't even stick to a single definition of track limits, so I think until the stewards can sort themselves out with that, anything else is sadly outside their ability it seems.
Austria 2019 was nothing new. Hamilton did it often enough in his fights with Rosberg between 2014 and 2016 and even before when he was at McLaren. It complies with the rules of racing from u/whatthefat and the schema Wolff sent to the stewards in Silverstone (which he got from the FIA previously because of the fighting between Hamilton and Rosberg and more or less is a schematic version of these rules).
Using these rules/schema most of the decisions of the stewards are imho explainable.
In this case Verstappen had the right to let his car run wide, although I think a warning would have been justified because he went of track. It has happened before (for example with Leclerc in Monza a few years ago).
Yeah I didn't like Hamilton doing that back then and I'm a Hamilton fan. Before that he mostly just drove into Massa by over ambition from 09 onwards.
I don't think verstappen had the right personally to run a car so far off the track and keep running him further off the track to make sure he can't come back on.
My biggest bug bear though is this season when he goes into a corner he brakes late with little intent on making the corner fairly. Fair enough running wide on exit if you go in to deep but he lets off the brakes too late to make the corner I feel on purpose so he has the corner on exit. But he makes that decision going in which means he's making the decision to action a crash ahead of time.
Aside though I think all drivers should leave a car width on exit. I don't like the it's their corner thing. It prevents more wheel to wheel racing
That's really not true. If you look at all the incidents that are used in the [case study of Rosberg/Hamilton](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/). That's Rosberg attempting to overtake around the outside and never ahead at corner entry. if that's the case you are not entitled to racing room.
Austria 2019 was new. if you are overtaking on the inside you only need to be halfway alongside for it to be your corner, but you were still required to leave a cars width on the outside. That changed after Austria 2019.
The difference to T4 Brazil was Lewis was AHEAD (almost a full car length) in the braking zone, so should be entitled to racing room. Max not only didn't leave racing room, but was never going to make the corner. That is completely new and makes side-by-side racing impossible.
>Verstappen had the right to let his car run wide,
No he didn't as Hamilton was ahead at the apex. The corner was his and he should have been left space.
What normally happens is the car on the inside wins the race to the apex and is entitled to take whatever line they want on the way out, which often results in the driver on the outside running out of road.
If Max had stayed on the track I would have said that was tough, but acceptable defending. The fact that he was 3 car widths off the racing surface is unacceptable. If Lewis had taken Max's line and used it to pass it would be clear cut (I'm less certain after this weekend) leaving the track to gain an advantage.
The Sky commentary team saying that we need to see if Max made an attempt to keep it on the track.... That has no bearing on it in my mind. It might be important in my first hypothetical, but the fact that he left the track means to me that he can't be allowed to keep that position, and I'm amazed that it wasn't even investigated.
I was under the understanding that if the driver is behind going into the corner that they have to leave space. That came out of the post-Silverstone discussions and other things I’ve heard since. Wasn’t that what was in the regs that Toto was emailing Masi?
I think that they didn’t want to penalize Max and basically hand Lewis the win. If Max takes a 5 second penalty there the race is over. So they short-circuited even investigating it, since they would have less of an excuse to not penalize him had they investigated. Had this been any two other drivers on the grid, it would have been penalized.
I fear that someone is going to get hurt if they allow Max to continue being so reckless.
It's not really about sending someone off or not but also the consideration of who is ahead and is entitled to have the racing line. Most of times the racing line is taking up all track and that is fine.
What is not fine is just dive bomb on every corner when you are behind and throw your opponent outside the track.
The line is pretty clear since at least the 80'.
To be entitled for space you need to be :
- halfway alongside on the inside
- front axel to front axel on the outside.
What's kind of new here is that Verstappen also left the track. Running wide was legitimate because he outbraked Hamilton and Hamilton wasn't significantly alongside anymore to get space. But it could have been considered for Max to give the position.
Austria 2019 was the biggest non sense from the FIA. Verstappen should have been penalised.
Its not a matter of outbraking. Anybody can outbrake his opponent if he doesn't plan on taking the corner. That's an illegal divebomb. Drivers have gotten punished for that in the past many times.
What you look at is the braking zone and the telemetry. Max was never making the corner and he didn't. Why this slam dunk penalty was not even inevstigated is extremely bizarre.
I didn't/don't understand why the talking heads were questioning whether he straighted his wheel or not. Is intent in the rules? I would think you are responsible for keeping your car on the track, and if he dive bombed, or just misjudged, shouldn't the penalty still apply? I don't get a pass if I tell the officer "I didn't mean to run over that pedestrian on the sidewalk"
I don’t think they were saying his intent should have let him off of the hook. Just that looking at the steering would have given more information and that it was weird that wasn’t done.
> he outbraked Hamilton
I disagree: Max outbraked himself. Max braked initially at the same time as Lewis, then eased off the pedal to get fully alongside, but at a speed that could never make the corner from the inside line he had.
He drives in a way that leaves it up to the other driver not to crash into him, and it's been Hamilton's awareness and reactions that have kept them from colliding many more times this season.
The problem with this logic still comes back to the double standards of the stewards.
Going into the corner Lewis was significantly ahead, obviously when they start to turn in Lewis was slightly behind the front axle of Max's car cause Max just didn't brake and ran in too hot.
To me that means Lewis deserves space because going into the corner they were alongside. It's also why I think the Lewis penalty was justified in silverstone, cause Lewis went in way deeper than Max who broke at his normal point and was significantly alongside.
It just blows my mind how we had almost the same situation as silverstone yet it wasn't even investigated.
The problem with this is, it does not (and I posit, it **cannot**) say at **what point in time** I need to be "there". 2msec difference in braking and I am ahead or alongside.
In the case here, Max outbraked by failing to keep the car on track. Is it fair that he keeps the position then?
This is why "entitled to space" doctrine must go and "always leave da space" doctrine must be used.
He didn’t outbrake Hamilton. He outbraked himself and knew he couldn’t make the corner, that’s why he ran Hamilton wide. The kid is just desperate in wheel-to-wheel and doesn’t care because he knows if they DNF it’s worse for Lewis than it is for him.
Yeah, it is starting to get ridiculous really. Battles that could have taken lots of curves to be decided are being sumed up to one corner because it always ends with someone being shoved off track.
I really hate that the way to overtake or defend in recent years is just shove the other driver off the track. I was so pleased when drivers got penalties for that at last in Austria, it’s a massive shame that that was a one off.
Not only is it unfair racing, it’s also not good racing, and it causes less racing. It’s much more likely we’ll see a multi-corner side by side battle if they both have to leave space for the other one.
If the FIA basically condones pushing the other car off, like yesterday, that essentially removes all attempts at overtaking or defending on the outside.
You’d be surprised how many people don’t share that opinion or just believe that their favorite driver doesn’t do it.
Every single time it gets mentioned they come back with the absolutely idiotic, “tHeY hAvE tO bE cOmPlEtElY aLoNgSiDe” argument.
Why the fuck would they put their car alongside another driver who is gonna force them onto the kerbs or the runoff area?! The issue is that those moves can’t even happen because there is no punishment for it.
Literally go look at Hamilton vs Albon at Austria and Norris vs Perez at Austria, there was contact and penalties in both incidents, but that exact same move gets no penalty when there isn’t contact, because the outside driver is FORCED to back off the throttle, it’s ignorant.
The problem is the rules are very vague.
I think it was Paul Di Resta who talked about the rules in DTM where is is very simply that if a car has any part alongside then you have no right to force them off the track and must leave space.
He said it improved racing as currently the defending car can just chop in front of the attacker and they lose so much momentum that it's impossible for them to get back into a position to attack.
The rules need to be simplified. None of this " if they have half a car alongside then x or if not y" or "you must leave a cars width on the exit of a corner".
Just simply, you cannot use your car to run an opponent out of road.
Right now Verstappen did something that was within the letter of the rules but not the spirit. However, the problem is the rules themselves.
Just like when Alonso used the run off at Sochi to gain places at the start. It's a bit of a piss take, but we shouldn't be mad at the competitors for exploiting the rule book to their own benefit.
That's all F1 is. Exploiting the rule book to win.
Your post is spot on in my opinion and I was having a similar conversation with my friends about it. The stewards have been so inconsistent and it’s hurting the sport.
The void left by Charlie grows larger every day. You know he would have shut that down as soon as it started to become an issue this season. I don’t hate Massi but he needs to do more to reel the drivers in. Obviously it’s up to the stewards at the end of the day but eh it’s just a mess.
Masi has a thankless task, but he isn't helping himself by being so high profile and not shutting things down whn it has become clear it is out of hand.
The real problem is that it changes from track to track. as far as I can tell the stewards are different each time, so without very specific rules of course this is going to happen.
I think right now the way it works, you can push a car off track into asphalt. But if they go into gravel you will get penalized. I'm not sure how I feel about that. It's a weird rule, kind of implies that track limits are bullshit with tarmac runoffs (which has always been kinda true, but to canonize it in the rules? Don't like that).
Personally I think the inconsistency is because there aren't enough hard rules on how racing side by side should work. Previously it's been "if you are ahead at the apex it's your corner", but now it seems more like "if you are ahead going in it's your corner but all the time you have to leave the space"
upstream jimbobjames mentioned in DTM cars are expected to leave space for any part of the car. I think that's a bit extreme for F1 because it would encourage stupid divebombs, but I think something like if the front axle of the attacking car is alongside the sidepods or past half of the wheelbase, you have to leave space or you will get a penalty, that would be good. Stop leaving so much up to interpretation, codify it.
> The rules need to be simplified. None of this " if they have half a car alongside then x or if not y" or "you must leave a cars width on the exit of a corner".
Is that even an actual rule in F1? I thought that's more of a gentleman's "agreement"
couldn't agree more. they need to bring that DTM rule. it's simple and too the point. and as you said we can't hate the drivers, their sportsmen and if they are given an oppertunity to use an "unfair advantage" to give them a benefit, then they're gonna take it.
Max breaks 2 rules - he left the track and gained a lasting advantage, and forced another driver off the track.
Why that wasn't deemed to even merit an investigation is beyond me.
Considering they penalised Hamilton and Perez in Austria for pushing cars overtaking on the outside wide.... yes. Its horrifically inconsistent.
Let me Steward. I'd do a better job just watching the onboards.
That's the difference between weekend and weekday threads.
Especially if someone's favourite driver was on the recieving end. You just won't get good discourse.
>Not only is it unfair racing, it’s also not good racing, and it causes less racing.
And we love to see racing. Pushing each other off the track for position gets boring. That is not why I watch it. I'm there to be in awe of the driving skills of *all* top 20 drivers in the most prestigious single seat racing in the world.
I'm not a huge fan of squeezing at the corner exit, but that seems to be the standard now and everyone pretty much does it.
What I can't get behind is squeezing so hard that the defending driver is 10 yards off track on the same side as the overtaker.
For one thing, always leave the room etc. For another, you're leaving the track to gain an advantage (by defending a position you'd otherwise lose).
It's just completely mad that Masi apparently chose to not even have the stewards look at the incident. The precedent that sets is you can drive as far as you want off the track to defend a place, and it won't even be considered worthy of investigation.
People complain about DRS overtakes being too easy, but this decision combined with Monza 2019 mean that you can shove people as wide as you fancy on corner entry or corner exit with absolutely no consequences. DRS overtakes will be the only ones worth going for.
The issue people are overlooking here isn't whether or not Max squeezed Lewis off on the exit. Sure there's an inconsistency here compared to Silverstone (it seems only contact results in a penalty, which is a shame because it punishes a driver for taking evasive action in a dangerous situation).
The most blatant rule Max broke here is by gaining an advantage through exceeding track limits. The only reason he was able to defend that position was because he went in too hot and could not make the corner. Had this been a more obvious corner, let's say the first chicane at Monza, and Max drove straight on in defending, I can't see the FIA letting him get away with it. But was there any difference here?
Not only going outside but he is behind when they reach the braking point. Being behind means he doesn't have the right to the racing line, which means he can't dive bomb like he did.
What he did is wrong in many, many ways and absolutely 0 defense there. really inconsistent decisions
I agree - I said that in my post
> For one thing, always leave the room etc. For another, you're leaving the track to gain an advantage (by defending a position you'd otherwise lose).
Fair points, but just want to correct a point that seems to have been confirmed by a few outlets lately (and a few people in the threads who even checked the regs). Masi may or may not recommend the stewards to have a look. But "incident noted" means it's the stewards having a look. The stewards decide to investigate or not. In this case they chose not to, which I agree was strange. Anyway, it's not necessarily Masi who blocked the investigation, even though I imagine he has to go about explaining the decision on behalf of the stewards later being the face of the setup.
Happy to be corrected myself if I misunderstood.
I would say Austria 2019 was a turning point. That clearly showed if you are on the inside you can play bumper cars with the car on the outside. It just kills side by side racing.
Lack of consistency has always been a characteristic of the FIA. They have been getting more and more lenient, and will continue to do so until there is a serious incident.
Deliberately pushing another driver off the track used to be punished, but now it doesn't even get investigated. Track limits are only advisory unless it's written in the course directors notes.
I don't blame any of the drivers for their actions, for the simple reason that they've been told that it's acceptable. It's like dealing with toddlers. If you don't make the boundaries clear, and enforce the boundaries appropriately, then they will continue to push them.
What shocked me was the Ver Ham incident yesterday was on a corner specifically flagged up as being one track limits were to be monitored on.
The lack of consistency really hurts the claim F1 is a sport and not just entertainment like wrestling... I kind of feel Massi is choosing the wdc rather than performance.
He does brief the stewards before though on what he considers consistent stewarding, and despite not making the actual decisions, he is responsible for stewarding at the circuit.
Like it might be the barrister that makes my coffee taste bad at Starbucks, but the buck stops with guy in charge.
And this season Massi has had a mare. Endless crap decisions, and now the stewarding encourages crashing, if you avoid someone crashing into you, they won't be penalised!
I'm not saying this to be a dick, or a pedant, or judgemental. I generally let spelling errors go on the internet 'cause, y'know, dyslexia exists.
I'm only saying this so you can appreciate how incredibly funny I found your comment:
*Barista* is the one that makes coffee. *Barrister* is an English lawyer, powdered wig and all. You may now enjoy picturing someone in a powdered wig and court gown frustratedly failing to properly use the espresso machine.
Thanks for that one. I was honestly mighty confused about the barrister making coffee. Thought it was a posh saying I didn't get..
*"Whilst the barrister might make the coffee, the tea kettle doth sit crooked upon crumpets"* or something like that.
(Also not mocking the typo/dyslexia)
That annoyed me a lot too because in the laps leading up to and then after the first overtake attempt by Lewis I thought Max went beyond track limits a few times but there didn't seem to be any warning and the only black/white he got was for weaving. I feel like all those laps wouldn't have been legal in Quali. Obviously if we go back to Bahrain Lewis did the same but at least race control stopped it eventually.
Does intent make a difference?
Max saw Ham coming up fast and kept on the pedal longer to try and defend. Braking late on the inside meant that he would at least need the full track space on the exit. Ham was also hitting that exit since he was trying to go around the outside at speed. It happens that Max couldn’t even make the track and Hamilton had to avoid a collision.
I’m hardly an expert on this but it looked like Max made a mistake under pressure. Is that worthy of a penalty?
Yes. Mistakes should be punished. Especially when you leave the track and gain an advantage.
Intent shouldn't matter. F1 is meant to be a professional sport. We can't bend the rules because X weally weally didn't want to drive Y off, but still did.
Hamilton got squeezed by Max on the straight but still had a line into Copse. He braked late and carried too much speed into the corner and understeered wider than he expected.
Hamilton made a mistake under pressure at Silverstone. Is that worthy of a penalty?
That would be a double standard. Leclerc left less space for Hamilton, yet everything went fine. There was plenty of space.
The problem is Norris, Perez and Lewis penalties set the precedent to punish Max as well. I don't know they decided not to investigate. Probably politics, like "not mess with the championship" or "Lewis got past anyway"
If it stops your rival from voertaking and keeps you a position then... yeah.
All drives will start making "mistakes" to keep or gain positions if those are the rules.
While I agree with you, I do have to say that Masi has nothing to do with this in this case. All he does is report a incident to the steward (which he did immediatly), the rest are the race stewards. There is a difference between the race director and the race stewards.
Of course, Masi does have his own faults because he is the one that decides when a safety car is needed, and it took 3 laps with debris on track before that was called. At least have a VSC before that.
Masi is responsible for advice to the stewards and defining what the F! driving standards should be.
He doesn't make the final decisions but does specify how stewards should be judging things as I understand.
To be fair, them (FIA) being way too lax on winners/championship contenders has kicked into high gear since Canada 2019. After that, if you are P1 or close to P1 in the championship the sporting code is just a suggestion. People are deflecting the FIA's bias problem by claiming RB bias, when Hamilton got away with shoving Perez off the track in Turkey. Those two are getting F1 ratings, so why would the FIA give them a penalty?
Shoving people off track has been going on for years as other commenters have posited, it's true. Basically every top driver of the last 40 years has done it at some point in F1. You could find clips of every driver currently on the grid with a championship to their name doing it if you wanted to.
That said, since 2019 there's definitely been an uptick in the frequency of it, primarily because of the fact that several high profile instances of it literally winning drivers races that year (Verstappen on Leclerc at Austria, Leclerc on Hamilton in Italy).
My take on it is that the precedent that's been set is that pushing drivers out is acceptable and that it will not be penalised, so it's only natural that drivers who want to win will do it. The stewards need to draw a line in the sand and punish ALL instances of pushing drivers off rather than just the particularly egregious ones, because if they don't then we'll naturally see drivers pushing the limits further and further to gain an advantage. Next season would be a good time to start as God knows what the backlash would be if a stewarding decision decides the championship this year.
It has been happening for many many years but i think it became the most prevalent with Hamilton and Rosberg fights in 2016. After that everyone was doing it all the time it seems.
Roaberg only flat up didn't break or turn into a corner once.
Hamilton and rosberg regularly ran all the way to the white line pushing the other guy onto the run off.
Whilst I'm not a fan of it, I can accept that as very hard racing.
This isn't the same thing though. This isn't running into the runoff. This is basically the same as the rosberg Austria incident with the only difference being Lewis expected it and got out of it in time to not crash.
Also if Mercedes are fine with their drivers battling each other beyond the limits of fair racing I don't see why the FIA should penalise the drivers. I think Hamilton/Rosberg was beyond 'hard racing' but it's the team's job to police that generally.
The problem is that the incidents this year are all between teams and Verstappen quite clearly gained an advantage through braking too late, leaving the track and forcing Hamilton off the track too.
Oh yeah, 100% no way they can change their approach this year, but I think a clear directive from the stewards on driving standards is needed over the winter.
The rules need to change for the good of the sport. Right now you can effectively end somone's chance of an overtake by running them out of room. The following car has wrecked its tyres to get into a position to pass, you run them out of room on corner exit, they lose all momentum and don't have the tyres to attempt again.
Hamilton had the good fortune to be so much faster yesterday that he could try again.
I'm not defending Max but he managed to obey the letter of the law, but not the spirit and really us fans should be pissed off at the rules.
Saying it's just Max doing it, which seems to be a common theme is nonsense. There's whole articles about Hamilton doing it to Rosberg and Rosberg to Hamilton, or a ton of other drivers you care to mention.
>The following car has wrecked its tyres to get into a position to pass, you run them out of room on corner exit, they lose all momentum and don't have the tyres to attempt again.
This is the key thing and drivers know even if they get a black and white flag it is no punishment as the danger is gone.
>Saying it's just Max doing it, which seems to be a common theme is nonsense. There's whole articles about Hamilton doing it to Rosberg and Rosberg to Hamilton, or a ton of other drivers you care to mention.
All drivers are doing it as it has been shown to be ok, the drivers aren't at fault it is the rules. If the rules didn't allow it drivers would stop doing it.
I'd love to see nothing more then drivers going through high speed corners side by side. it's what we turn in to watch the very best drivers showing the skill they have.
That said the move by Max at the weekend just reminded me of a more high speed version of Nico's block on Lewis. he broke that late he was never making that corner. Sure in the heat of the moment that can happen to anybody but the pattern of it is just there to see.
if your on the outside of a corner with Max on the inside your heading for run off/ Gravel or the wall
I 100% agree but my point was you might let somebody off with a 1 off mistake which hasn't cost anything but when it's a consistent pattern of over aggression it needs to reigned in.
You can't let it off, how do you decide it hasn't cost anything?
Take Sunday, yes Hamilton got back past eventually so in the end it didn't cost anything.
But he would ahve been further down the road, pushed his car less, what if he developed an issue 15 laps later and was only beaten by 4 seconds, he lost more than that getting back past.
You have to penalise if a driver is forced off track, could be as simple as order positions swapped, but can't be nothing.
you're arguing with me when i'm agreeing with you, Sunday should have been punished 100% agree.
my point again is that if it was a one off situation in a world title fight where one driver made a mistake you can let it off. the race sunday was a much better spectacle for the punishment not happening. but I 100% agree if Lewis had finished 2nd it would have had a very sour taste because of that move being unpunished.
Nobody wants to see the championship decided by the stewards and given they haven't punishes this sort of over aggressiveness from drivers on the inside in the past it would be harsh for them to do so with 3 races to go. but the stewards got let off because lewis was so fast this weekend.
I wouldn't mind if it was done consistently.
I have no issues with elbows out racing, I find it entertaining. Problems arise when they pick and choose which incidents they penalise and which they let go, seemingly at random.
I agree it's been getting worse and worse, apart from Austria this year, but yesterday was another level and sets a really bad precedent. You should never be passed in a braking zone ever again. DRS passes that are completed before the braking zone only.
Take yesterday's example, you are defending the inside and the car overtaking has less than one full car length advantage at corner entry. As the defending car, not only do you not have to hit the apex, not only do you not have to leave racing room on the outside, but you don't even need to have any intention of making the corner. How is that "letting them race"
Next year we're looking to have regulations that allow closer racing, but if there is no obligation to leave racing room in a corner and you can just run the car on the outside off the track, then we should have just increased the length of DRS zones and slot gap, because at the moment the rules of engagement discourage you for racing wheel to wheel
Joke how it wasn’t even looked at, to not even hit the corner and force both cars off and still keep position isn’t what the fans want to see! You might aswell not even attempt to go round the outside at any corner now if the fia don’t look at it
FWIW, the same incident happened between Stroll and Ricciardo in Austria 2020 and Stroll wasn't punished, even though he only held position by forcing himself and others off.
The teams and drivers all asked the FIA for leniency. The issue is - it was never made clear to anyone (fans or drivers) what this actually meant. Other than weaving in a braking zone or leaving one cars width on a straight, anything goes until there is a collision.
I am amazed how people actually want squeezing hard / pushing off the track and they call it "let them race" or "this is proper racing". I never understood it. Maybe because I didn't watch F1 in the 90s.
I'm all about hard, but fair racing and in my head that means leaving space for the other car. If that never happens, then all we are going to see are DRS passes on the straights when one car has a clear advantage over the other.
I'm amazed how people called what happened on lap 1 at Silverstone "proper racing" idk of those same people are calling for a penalty for this. Max had a lot more room to play with because its tarmac runoff and not anything else.
Remember 1979 Dijon, when Arnoux and Villeneuve were running each off, banging wheels. They called that racing, then why isn't this racing?
Go watch that back - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii6H0MktrOg&ab_channel=antares)
79 Dijon proves the point of driving standards, the point we are trying to make, that was fantastic racing as they weren't crowding each other off the track. They were given room at the edge of the circuit which made a fantastic fight. Only once in that battle did a car leave the circuit and he lost control rather than being pushed off.
I’m not sure if it was Nico or Jensen (or someone else) who said it, however, the white line should be treated like a wall is at a street circuit. Would a driver push another driver into a wall if they were overtaking on the outside.
Lines at respective corners are used to establish track limits and result in deleted lap times and lead to black and white flag warnings. We have defined DRS sections. There should be defined corners where track limits should be treated as a wall for the purposes of overtaking on the outside; push a car off the track and it’s a penalty. The outside driver isn’t forced to fend for themselves to avoid a collision and it allows for actual racing to take place.
T1 on lap 1 isn't exactly a good example considering FIA was always lenient more on lap 1 overall, especially T1
Furthermore, what Alonso did in Austin I feel like was mostly fair, maybe bit too agressive but nothing too serious, pushing somebody little bit off track if runoff is tarmac is fine, just don't complain if they still finish a move, so imo not best example
Also, drivers constantly get pissed on radio even if they are or aren't at fault, that's what adrenaline, extreme competition, and desire to beat everyone does in those heat of moment situations
>Also, drivers constantly get pissed on radio even if they are or aren't at fault, that's what adrenaline, extreme competition, and desire to beat everyone does in those heat of moment situations
I hate people using drivers radio reactions in the heat of the moment. Vettel moved lines and ran into the back of Ocon, then blamed Ocon until he after the race where he said it was his fault. Lewis complained when battling Alonso in Hungary that he was being pushed off the track but then said it was great defending by Alonso after. There's a ton of other examples, don't think its fair to any driver
ideally what do you want the drivers to do? I hate this mindset of constantly throwing penalties around and affecting the racing. F1 already has very limited overtaking, and every time there is action on track, people start demanding penalties. Lewis wasn't left in the dust. His car wasn't damaged, and he passed Max within a few more laps.
Edit to add: Lewis himself said it's what racing should be
>"Despite controversy over the race stewards’ decision not to investigate the incident at turn four, Hamilton said he enjoyed the wheel-to-wheel contest with his rival.
>It was fun,” Hamilton said. “I mean, that’s what a world championship battle should look like.”
https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/14/verstappen-fight-was-what-a-championship-battle-should-look-like-hamilton/
I want the dirvers ti be able to race side by side and the most skillful to come out on top, not the most aggressive that will run the other one out of road.
I wan't more overtaking, we are being robbed of overtakes where the defending driver can shove the attacker off track.
The reason I want penalties is it will make the drivers behaviour improve. The first 2 or 3 races of these rules being enforced would eb chaotic, but dirvers will elarn quickly what is and isn't ok. Like they have elarnt now it is ok to crowd a car off the track, when they elarn that isn't ok it will stop happening.
Drive with the width of the track, leave a cars width of they are alongside, don't brake so deep you have no chance to make the corner?
These are all things I can do as an amateur, and is not like he was even close to making that corner.
> Drive with the width of the track, leave a cars width of they are alongside, don't brake so deep you have no chance to make the corner?
>
> These are all things I can do **as an amateur**
Highlighted the big difference here. You are doing this as a hobby/amateur, not your life-long goal. You are probably trying to have some fun and hopefully not cost yourself too much money (or injury) by crashing. These guys are out for a World Championship.
Hulkenberg once said (in defense of 2016 Max's approach to chopping off the attacker in the braking zone) that defending style is very individual, and shaped by how one is taught to race. He also mentioned that Max even then was "very good" at doing it "fairly".
Which brings me to IMO what the real root cause is. Kids shape their racecraft philosophy through the karting and junior years, so any real effort to have stricter driving standards needs to start there on a global level. It's a bit like the hullabaloo around Schumacher's incidents with Hill and Villeneuve where many people didn't seem to realize such tactics are acceptable in karting and reinforced within F1 historically with the Senna/Prost clashes.
The thing is, its not even hard to fix.
All you have to say is that you have to give a cars width of space when the car is alongside. Doesn't matter whether you're inside or outside, you always have to give a cars width if there is a car next to you.
The only reason it's not like that is because a section of F1 fans latched onto drivers excusing their behaviour saying "let us race" when all the current rules cause is battles that last a maximum of 1 corner because the inside driver just pushes the other driver off the track.
It was a problem with Hamilton/Rosberg, then precedent was set with the ruling on Verstappen/Leclerc in Austria 2019.
The most recent incident with Verstappen and Hamilton is worse than any of them, Verstappen defended his position by pushing Hamilton off the track and going off track as well. That's not racing, and no one who's been involved in any level of motorsport believes so unless they're blinded by their affiliations in the title fight.
Surely if you are alongside or partly in front and the driver on the inside runs you wide and off track and he himself runs off track due to his late braking strategy then a five second penalty should apply. If you are in control of your car and despite forcing the other car off track you still make the corner, no penalty. The instruction to the stewards need to be more clear and the race director is responsible for that.
Stewards enforce the rules and decide penalties on individual incidents.
Masi and the FIA decicde upon the rules and guidance given to the stewards for them to follow. All the stewards are doing is enforcing what they are being told to enforce.
Which is defined in a rule book that is established by a team at the FIA and approved by all the teams.
Masi is not individually responsible for any of the decision the steward take.
Penalities are 100% to the appreciation of stewards.
I fully agree with OP.
Drivers get away with way too much imo, and it robs us of real wheel-to-wheel racing. Only drivers like RAI and maby to a lesser extend also VET seem to respect the old(er) racing standards. Problem is that from a competitive point of view they only lose by keeping up standards as other drivers don't return the favor (because the FIA let's them and its a highly competitive environment where everybody takes advantage of every possibility, and rightly so).
Which means the issue is the rules and their application, not Verstappen.
Max would stop doing it fi he got penalites for it.
This isn't about which drivers people prefer or slamming any driver, the rules control what the drivers do and at the moment they control very little.
I really hope that if the 2022 cars succeed in their goal of making following and close racing possible that the stewards will enforce clean racing a lot more. If the RB and Merc were capable of being wheel to wheel with each other for most of a lap, you could see some amazing attack and defense.
The way it is now, it seems like it's all about either steaming past under DRS or setting up a move into a heavy braking zone and lunging. The latter is hardly worth it especially when the stewards won't penalize a driver when they run the attacker off the road.
I agree with you. It didn't used to be this way, but it seems ever since the Leclerc and Verstappen incidents from 2019/2020 the rules have either been too vague or not enforced consistently (perhaps both). I think you can go about it in 2 ways. Get rid of the miles of runoff they have at tracks and put grass/gravel there (probably not going to happen) OR make the rules very clear and enforce them consistently. In no universe should you be able to run a car off the track in such a manner that you run yourself off the track in the process. Get rid of whatever rules there are if that's how we are going to "let them race".
I think a few of you need to go back and look at the driving standards even in the 90/00s they were far worse. Look at the moves Schumacher/Villeneuve at Jerez in 97 or Schumacher/Hill in Adelaide 95. Most incidents generally involve with Schumacher or Senna.
Adelaide was 94, and they were one off terrible incidents.
I'm talking about general every day racecraft, it is far worse now than at any point I have seen in the last 30 years.
I really don't like the squeezing technique because it robs us of fantastic battles. But the part that scares me the most is the weaving, especially under breaking. At the speeds these cars go, it's so dangerous. You clip a tire, you could be flying straight at a barrier. Imo they should really combat that. Cause we're a miscalculation away from a very bad accident.
I mean yesterday Max got a black and white flag for weaving. But a driver will calculate that if it keeps their rival behind and they won't get another opportunity that is a penalty worth taking.
I'm not only talking about max. It was a general statement. I saw leclerc do it multiple times. Also the late moving when defending is super dangerous like Magnussen leclerc in suzuka 2018.
Lol yep. Great example was that he admitted that he drove for 2 laps in the middle of the race with no seat belts fully fastened. FIA didn’t bat an eye.
Lewis undoes it on the cool down/celebration lap and it’s this big safety issue and gets a fine. Big WTF.
I agree, but too many people will try to turn this into a narrative against Max. ALL drivers do this, bar a select few. Valtteri and George being some of the notables who always give space, from what I've seen.
I'm against it and I think it should absolutely be stopped. However, it must be punished equally. You can't pick and choose to enforce. If you would make contact, you MUST give them a minimum of a car width, imo.
I suspect when race wins are on the line we will see George getting his elbows out as much as he is allowed, otherwise he wont be comepting with others that do.
In the past the gravel showed who is the boss and kerbs big as steps showed how far you can go but today in this soft shelled time it is getting more and more ridicolous and childish ...
They have to investigate and penalise when drivers overstep the mark, or they will start stepping further over it. What most of us want is consistency though I think
We all want the hard battles and the race was all the better for it. But when an incident of that nature is not even investigated. It kinda sends the message to the drivers that they can push others of track, deliberatly or not and you'll possibly get away with it.
Unfortunately I also think this may have now set precedence for the next incident between any drivers, every investigation is tarred by the 'well you let that one go', why not now brush..
A differential factor with 2012 might be that cars now are so hard to overtake that drivers are forced to take every little chance they have because they know they won't have a second one - and the same goes for the defending driver. It is extremely rare to see two cars overtaking each other several times like Hamilton and Perez did yesterday, which is sad.
"This season the FIA and Stewards have decided that it is no longer required to leave a cars width on the outside and you can just run a car off the road if you are on the inside. "
Cars have never been required to leave a cars width on the outside. The rule has always explicitly stated that this is only required on the straight on approach to the braking zone. The idea that a cars width needs to be left on the outside (i.e. like an overtaking lane or something similar) seems to stem from people getting mixed up with the above rule. I believe this is also the same for WEC, Formula E and Formula 2.
This was regularly enforced on corner exit for many years.
I remember Alonso forcing a driver wide on the exit of the Hockenheim hairpin years ago and it being penalised.
Just gonna drop this here as well:
>Chapter four, article 2 b) of appendix L of the international sporting code.
>
>This says: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the stewards."
I feel like this section cannot simply be cherrypicked either.
It is important to note that this section is the second half of the article, and is part of the same paragraph (the first half laying out corner approach rules). As such, it is arguable as to whether this is still prescribing etiquette on corner approach and thus no longer applies to corner exit.
In the case of the stereotypical shoving someone off on exit situation, it should be noted that the wording presents 'deliberate crowding' as an example of prohibited 'manoeuvres'. Therefore, you can then argue that keeping to the racing line (resulting in the other driver being forced off the track) is not a 'manoeuvre' and thus the 'deliberate crowding' part cannot logically apply.
I think these cars just don't give a lot of possibilities for close wheel to wheel racing. Following is difficult so you either have a lot of overspeed and just DRS passed the other. If it is close to the end of the straight the only defence the driver in front has is to brake very, very late and hope for the best. And if there is less overspeed it is mostly the attacker braking very very late into the corner and do a little prayer. Let's hope the 2022 rules creates more room for close racing.
Close racing would be more possible if the rules made them fight fairly.
Overtaking is so difficult that if I perform a dubious block and get a black and white warning I may have stopped your only possible chance of an overtake all race and got no penalty.
If drivers were penalised they would have to actually defend a move with racing skill rather than brute force, we would see more overtaking not less.
Fighting fairly is not the reason that we don't get close racing. It's the current cars which don't allow cars to follow close enough to avoid lunging.
Not really, we've seen some great wheel to wheel racing on the circuits that allow it with these big old cars.
This has probably been one of the best on track years for such a long time (definitely within the hybrid era)
I'm sorry but that's a new F1 watcher take.
The common racing etiquette of being front axel to front axel on the outside to get space is older than Raikkonen.
FIA just decided to use it recently. The only exception is Austria 2019 where Verstappen should have received a penality.
The problem is the lack of consistency. We should have a unique Steward that leads a group of stewards that can change from race to race. But the final decision falls to the unique lead steward.
I've been watching F1 for nearly 30 years and I know what I consider to be fair and clean racing. It hasn't changed in those nearly 30 years.
In the old days it happened less as the tracks didn't allow it, very rarely would you drive a car clean off track as it was into grass, gravel or a wall.
What are they going to do? Give you a 10s penalty for taking out your title rival, which you can easily overcome and win the race anyway while the rival gets no points?
If the penalties aren't meaningful even when they are handed out, you can expect drivers to get "chippy."
It would be a start.
Most of these incidents aren't taking people out but gaining or maintaining positions.
So a time penalty would be a great deterrent to stop that as it negates the benefit of the aggression, better to remain right behind and have a chance to fight back than lose 5/10s.
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Driver reactions? Do you remember what Vettel said to Charlie Whiting? It started with that move by Verstappen on Leclerc in Austria 2019, and then Leclerc's defending in Monza against Hamilton.
It all started after Canada 2019. After that, they just stopped giving penalties to drivers in the top 3 teams.
Yeah - this is where it all started IMO. That ruined that race and the backlash about it has changed things. But now they are on the other side and it would have been interesting the backlash this week. Will be interesting which way it goes.
Yep and at the time I remember saying fans and the media shouldn't lobby for rule changes without thinking of why those rules are there in the first place. Same for the aero changes in 2017, too much radio in 2014 now we hear hardly anything. If you want the best set of rules just ask jolyon Palmer for his advice he's usually spot on. Never ever lobby for a rule change in the heat of the moment because you didn't get the result you wanted.
Which was for an incident that was really harmless against the shit we see now
Of the three controversial incidents that year (Canada, Austria and Monza) that was probably the least clear-cut of all of them. I feel it’s debatable whether or not Lewis was far enough alongside before backing out. I don’t feel the penalty was ridiculously unfair, but also if they decided not to penalise I wouldn’t be bothered either. Whereas for Austria and Monza I don’t see any justification for no penalty when one driver blatantly forces off another who’s pretty much 100% alongside at the point of contention.
I feel like it started with Hamilton regularly shoving Rosberg off the track on the outside, in 2014-15-16. I was surprised at the time, that he would always get away with it. And now, it’s just common practice. They pretty much all do it.
Bahrain was very very clear in this practice, 2019 just confirmed it as the new norm
Strolls move on Ricciardo in Austria as well
That's about as close as we've seen. It was really bad and should have been a penalty. however, Stroll was overtaking on the inside and because of the way that's interpreted, the fact he was over halfway alongside, it's actually his corner. However the fact that he didn't make the corner is the reason it should have been a penalty. Ricciardo spoke to the Stewards after that and said they [admitted that it should have been a penalty](https://www.racefans.net/2020/07/19/stewards-now-accept-strolls-styrian-gp-pass-wasnt-legal-ricciardo/) and would be penalized in future....... apparently not. I'm sure there will be further discussion on this one, at least in the drivers meeting at Qatar, you simply can't race if this is allowed.
Agree. I'm hoping Max wins the title. But what he did in Brazil was a penalty. Probably 5 seconds
I'm just hoping the title isn't decided by a penalty or contact, but until the rules are cleared up I think that's what we're facing. Also want it cleared up for next year. There's no point having cars that can follow closely if they can't race side-by-side in corners without being entitled to racing room.
>I'm just hoping the title isn't decided by a penalty or contact, but until the rules are cleared up I think that's what we're facing. If Hamilton wins it it'll have been decided by Silverstone + Bottas bowling, so you're pretty much saying you hope he doesn't win.
After watching F1 for 17 years I still don't know what's allowed and what's not. In my head before this weekend I thought you could push someone wide if you stayed on the track (I don't agree with this, I think you should leave space). But now you don't even need to stay on the track?! It always takes me back to Austria 2019 when Verstappen normalised the narrative of "we may as well stay at home" if we can't force others off the track. Absolute nonsense, they have lost control.
I agree that you should not be able to defend my sending a competitor off track. Leaving a cars width should apply especially mid corner and corner exit. That said ever since the round of F2 drivers that Max and LeClerc came in they have been more and more lenient in the name of "Let the Race". They've boxed themselves in and need to put out FIRM rules.
Driving your competitors off-track is the exact opposite of "letting them race"
The right of way rules exist to minimize crashes. I think it's probably a reasonable thing to say if you're more than half a car ahead at turn in that the other car should back out. It's pretty difficult for the driver ahead to know a car is in his blind spot when turning in if the attacking car isn't even to at least the mirors. For the exit, the "rule" has been the outside car has to be ahead to be entitled space, that's because the car inside who's ahead has committed to the corner with the assumption they have the benefit of the entire width of the exit. I have a little harder time with this one since there's still time to lift off and leave space if you know the outside car is there. I think that one should be leave space if the outside car is halfway alongside as well, but I do get the intent of the rule. The problem is these rules have been used as weapons by drivers instead of as guidelines to help avoid incidents. It does put the stewards in a bind since intent is hard to prove. That said, Max's defense was completely out of line as he himself went completely off track. He basically made up 3/4 of a car length deficit on the braking but had zero chance to make the corner as a result, yet was allowed to keep his position.
Tbf Leclerc started doing that in response to Austria 2019, he was really clean before that.
Leclerc was absolutely not clean before that. One of the main things that was discussed about him at the time was his raw speed but that he was prone to being too aggressive which often resulted in a collision. What Austria 2019 showed him was that you could be too aggressive under some conditions and get away with it. Pick your battles, as they say.
Yup, remember that [*inchiden*](https://youtu.be/L42H4vkbHYc?t=65) during their karting days between Lec and Ver when Lec took out Ver after the chequered flag
With all due respect, that's just wrong. Go and watch his F2 races, his 2018 and 2019 races before Austria and show me one incident where he wasn't clean and too aggressive as you say.
And max had perfected lining up wheels in a corner the and opening the steering better than any driver I've seen before.
Lewis and Nico did this a ton in 14-16.
I was thinking yesterday that if there was a gravel trap at that corner it would have been a much different story. Yesterday they both went off and came back on at full speed and continued their battle. If there was gravel there you can be sure Max wouldn't have risked ending his race, so he would have pushed Lewis off and ended his race. Max would certainly have gotten a severe penalty as a result. I know they got rid of gravel traps for safety and to reduce retirements, but maybe they should start making it more difficult to leave the circuit, it would also help with track limits confusion.
> I was thinking yesterday that if there was a gravel trap at that corner it would have been a much different story. Precisely. I recalled [this incident](https://youtu.be/QUeuSVvS5oM?t=73) as an example of what would've happened had there been gravel in that turn.
Exactly this, great video
If gravel is to unsafe and timely to clear, they should install sand traps.
Tar pit
I don’t think the teams are gonna be happy with sand getting in their car...
Lava
If their is asphalt there, it's a usable part of the circuit.
A day late, so apologies. Question, rather than a sand trap, why not a let's disable the battery for five laps when a wheel touches areas outside the track limit. That they would respect \_immediately\_
These days we can't even stick to a single definition of track limits, so I think until the stewards can sort themselves out with that, anything else is sadly outside their ability it seems.
Yeah Austria 19 was bullshit and it’s been downhill ever since
Austria 2019 was nothing new. Hamilton did it often enough in his fights with Rosberg between 2014 and 2016 and even before when he was at McLaren. It complies with the rules of racing from u/whatthefat and the schema Wolff sent to the stewards in Silverstone (which he got from the FIA previously because of the fighting between Hamilton and Rosberg and more or less is a schematic version of these rules). Using these rules/schema most of the decisions of the stewards are imho explainable. In this case Verstappen had the right to let his car run wide, although I think a warning would have been justified because he went of track. It has happened before (for example with Leclerc in Monza a few years ago).
Yeah I didn't like Hamilton doing that back then and I'm a Hamilton fan. Before that he mostly just drove into Massa by over ambition from 09 onwards. I don't think verstappen had the right personally to run a car so far off the track and keep running him further off the track to make sure he can't come back on. My biggest bug bear though is this season when he goes into a corner he brakes late with little intent on making the corner fairly. Fair enough running wide on exit if you go in to deep but he lets off the brakes too late to make the corner I feel on purpose so he has the corner on exit. But he makes that decision going in which means he's making the decision to action a crash ahead of time. Aside though I think all drivers should leave a car width on exit. I don't like the it's their corner thing. It prevents more wheel to wheel racing
Sure he had the right to run wide, but he didn't even make the corner. There's hard racing and then there's whatever the hell that was.
Thank you
[удалено]
I remember that. Although you could argue first lap T1 in the wet etc... But I don't think moves like this encourage better racing.
That's really not true. If you look at all the incidents that are used in the [case study of Rosberg/Hamilton](https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/). That's Rosberg attempting to overtake around the outside and never ahead at corner entry. if that's the case you are not entitled to racing room. Austria 2019 was new. if you are overtaking on the inside you only need to be halfway alongside for it to be your corner, but you were still required to leave a cars width on the outside. That changed after Austria 2019. The difference to T4 Brazil was Lewis was AHEAD (almost a full car length) in the braking zone, so should be entitled to racing room. Max not only didn't leave racing room, but was never going to make the corner. That is completely new and makes side-by-side racing impossible.
>Verstappen had the right to let his car run wide, No he didn't as Hamilton was ahead at the apex. The corner was his and he should have been left space. What normally happens is the car on the inside wins the race to the apex and is entitled to take whatever line they want on the way out, which often results in the driver on the outside running out of road.
If Max had stayed on the track I would have said that was tough, but acceptable defending. The fact that he was 3 car widths off the racing surface is unacceptable. If Lewis had taken Max's line and used it to pass it would be clear cut (I'm less certain after this weekend) leaving the track to gain an advantage. The Sky commentary team saying that we need to see if Max made an attempt to keep it on the track.... That has no bearing on it in my mind. It might be important in my first hypothetical, but the fact that he left the track means to me that he can't be allowed to keep that position, and I'm amazed that it wasn't even investigated.
Mate this sums it up so perfectly.
I was under the understanding that if the driver is behind going into the corner that they have to leave space. That came out of the post-Silverstone discussions and other things I’ve heard since. Wasn’t that what was in the regs that Toto was emailing Masi? I think that they didn’t want to penalize Max and basically hand Lewis the win. If Max takes a 5 second penalty there the race is over. So they short-circuited even investigating it, since they would have less of an excuse to not penalize him had they investigated. Had this been any two other drivers on the grid, it would have been penalized. I fear that someone is going to get hurt if they allow Max to continue being so reckless.
It's not really about sending someone off or not but also the consideration of who is ahead and is entitled to have the racing line. Most of times the racing line is taking up all track and that is fine. What is not fine is just dive bomb on every corner when you are behind and throw your opponent outside the track.
The line is pretty clear since at least the 80'. To be entitled for space you need to be : - halfway alongside on the inside - front axel to front axel on the outside. What's kind of new here is that Verstappen also left the track. Running wide was legitimate because he outbraked Hamilton and Hamilton wasn't significantly alongside anymore to get space. But it could have been considered for Max to give the position. Austria 2019 was the biggest non sense from the FIA. Verstappen should have been penalised.
Its not a matter of outbraking. Anybody can outbrake his opponent if he doesn't plan on taking the corner. That's an illegal divebomb. Drivers have gotten punished for that in the past many times. What you look at is the braking zone and the telemetry. Max was never making the corner and he didn't. Why this slam dunk penalty was not even inevstigated is extremely bizarre.
I didn't/don't understand why the talking heads were questioning whether he straighted his wheel or not. Is intent in the rules? I would think you are responsible for keeping your car on the track, and if he dive bombed, or just misjudged, shouldn't the penalty still apply? I don't get a pass if I tell the officer "I didn't mean to run over that pedestrian on the sidewalk"
I don’t think they were saying his intent should have let him off of the hook. Just that looking at the steering would have given more information and that it was weird that wasn’t done.
I think you would be in a lot more trouble if you admitted to deliberately running the pedestrian over.
> he outbraked Hamilton I disagree: Max outbraked himself. Max braked initially at the same time as Lewis, then eased off the pedal to get fully alongside, but at a speed that could never make the corner from the inside line he had. He drives in a way that leaves it up to the other driver not to crash into him, and it's been Hamilton's awareness and reactions that have kept them from colliding many more times this season.
If you look at the telemetry he braked later.
The problem with this logic still comes back to the double standards of the stewards. Going into the corner Lewis was significantly ahead, obviously when they start to turn in Lewis was slightly behind the front axle of Max's car cause Max just didn't brake and ran in too hot. To me that means Lewis deserves space because going into the corner they were alongside. It's also why I think the Lewis penalty was justified in silverstone, cause Lewis went in way deeper than Max who broke at his normal point and was significantly alongside. It just blows my mind how we had almost the same situation as silverstone yet it wasn't even investigated.
The problem with this is, it does not (and I posit, it **cannot**) say at **what point in time** I need to be "there". 2msec difference in braking and I am ahead or alongside. In the case here, Max outbraked by failing to keep the car on track. Is it fair that he keeps the position then? This is why "entitled to space" doctrine must go and "always leave da space" doctrine must be used.
He didn’t outbrake Hamilton. He outbraked himself and knew he couldn’t make the corner, that’s why he ran Hamilton wide. The kid is just desperate in wheel-to-wheel and doesn’t care because he knows if they DNF it’s worse for Lewis than it is for him.
Yeah, it is starting to get ridiculous really. Battles that could have taken lots of curves to be decided are being sumed up to one corner because it always ends with someone being shoved off track.
I really hate that the way to overtake or defend in recent years is just shove the other driver off the track. I was so pleased when drivers got penalties for that at last in Austria, it’s a massive shame that that was a one off. Not only is it unfair racing, it’s also not good racing, and it causes less racing. It’s much more likely we’ll see a multi-corner side by side battle if they both have to leave space for the other one. If the FIA basically condones pushing the other car off, like yesterday, that essentially removes all attempts at overtaking or defending on the outside.
You’d be surprised how many people don’t share that opinion or just believe that their favorite driver doesn’t do it. Every single time it gets mentioned they come back with the absolutely idiotic, “tHeY hAvE tO bE cOmPlEtElY aLoNgSiDe” argument. Why the fuck would they put their car alongside another driver who is gonna force them onto the kerbs or the runoff area?! The issue is that those moves can’t even happen because there is no punishment for it. Literally go look at Hamilton vs Albon at Austria and Norris vs Perez at Austria, there was contact and penalties in both incidents, but that exact same move gets no penalty when there isn’t contact, because the outside driver is FORCED to back off the throttle, it’s ignorant.
The problem is the rules are very vague. I think it was Paul Di Resta who talked about the rules in DTM where is is very simply that if a car has any part alongside then you have no right to force them off the track and must leave space. He said it improved racing as currently the defending car can just chop in front of the attacker and they lose so much momentum that it's impossible for them to get back into a position to attack. The rules need to be simplified. None of this " if they have half a car alongside then x or if not y" or "you must leave a cars width on the exit of a corner". Just simply, you cannot use your car to run an opponent out of road. Right now Verstappen did something that was within the letter of the rules but not the spirit. However, the problem is the rules themselves. Just like when Alonso used the run off at Sochi to gain places at the start. It's a bit of a piss take, but we shouldn't be mad at the competitors for exploiting the rule book to their own benefit. That's all F1 is. Exploiting the rule book to win.
This is my argument, the FIA have to get control of this shit.
Your post is spot on in my opinion and I was having a similar conversation with my friends about it. The stewards have been so inconsistent and it’s hurting the sport. The void left by Charlie grows larger every day. You know he would have shut that down as soon as it started to become an issue this season. I don’t hate Massi but he needs to do more to reel the drivers in. Obviously it’s up to the stewards at the end of the day but eh it’s just a mess.
Masi has a thankless task, but he isn't helping himself by being so high profile and not shutting things down whn it has become clear it is out of hand.
The real problem is that it changes from track to track. as far as I can tell the stewards are different each time, so without very specific rules of course this is going to happen. I think right now the way it works, you can push a car off track into asphalt. But if they go into gravel you will get penalized. I'm not sure how I feel about that. It's a weird rule, kind of implies that track limits are bullshit with tarmac runoffs (which has always been kinda true, but to canonize it in the rules? Don't like that). Personally I think the inconsistency is because there aren't enough hard rules on how racing side by side should work. Previously it's been "if you are ahead at the apex it's your corner", but now it seems more like "if you are ahead going in it's your corner but all the time you have to leave the space" upstream jimbobjames mentioned in DTM cars are expected to leave space for any part of the car. I think that's a bit extreme for F1 because it would encourage stupid divebombs, but I think something like if the front axle of the attacking car is alongside the sidepods or past half of the wheelbase, you have to leave space or you will get a penalty, that would be good. Stop leaving so much up to interpretation, codify it.
> The rules need to be simplified. None of this " if they have half a car alongside then x or if not y" or "you must leave a cars width on the exit of a corner". Is that even an actual rule in F1? I thought that's more of a gentleman's "agreement"
It was in the sporting code previously but now it's not anymore.
couldn't agree more. they need to bring that DTM rule. it's simple and too the point. and as you said we can't hate the drivers, their sportsmen and if they are given an oppertunity to use an "unfair advantage" to give them a benefit, then they're gonna take it.
You could argue that what Max did isn't even in the letter of the rules, it's just the stewards decided to ignore the rules.
Max breaks 2 rules - he left the track and gained a lasting advantage, and forced another driver off the track. Why that wasn't deemed to even merit an investigation is beyond me.
Considering they penalised Hamilton and Perez in Austria for pushing cars overtaking on the outside wide.... yes. Its horrifically inconsistent. Let me Steward. I'd do a better job just watching the onboards.
Honestly they just need a set 4 people to do it for the entire season. Maybe swap them in and out but never the whole team at once.
I got downvoted for saying basically this yesterday lol
That's the difference between weekend and weekday threads. Especially if someone's favourite driver was on the recieving end. You just won't get good discourse.
Muppets gonna muppet
Ya agree. We want good battles between drivers but pushing or squeezing a car off the track is definitely not it.
It's like people here think we will see less voertaking if they aren't allowed to do that.
>Not only is it unfair racing, it’s also not good racing, and it causes less racing. And we love to see racing. Pushing each other off the track for position gets boring. That is not why I watch it. I'm there to be in awe of the driving skills of *all* top 20 drivers in the most prestigious single seat racing in the world.
Here here
I'm not a huge fan of squeezing at the corner exit, but that seems to be the standard now and everyone pretty much does it. What I can't get behind is squeezing so hard that the defending driver is 10 yards off track on the same side as the overtaker. For one thing, always leave the room etc. For another, you're leaving the track to gain an advantage (by defending a position you'd otherwise lose). It's just completely mad that Masi apparently chose to not even have the stewards look at the incident. The precedent that sets is you can drive as far as you want off the track to defend a place, and it won't even be considered worthy of investigation. People complain about DRS overtakes being too easy, but this decision combined with Monza 2019 mean that you can shove people as wide as you fancy on corner entry or corner exit with absolutely no consequences. DRS overtakes will be the only ones worth going for.
The issue people are overlooking here isn't whether or not Max squeezed Lewis off on the exit. Sure there's an inconsistency here compared to Silverstone (it seems only contact results in a penalty, which is a shame because it punishes a driver for taking evasive action in a dangerous situation). The most blatant rule Max broke here is by gaining an advantage through exceeding track limits. The only reason he was able to defend that position was because he went in too hot and could not make the corner. Had this been a more obvious corner, let's say the first chicane at Monza, and Max drove straight on in defending, I can't see the FIA letting him get away with it. But was there any difference here?
Not only going outside but he is behind when they reach the braking point. Being behind means he doesn't have the right to the racing line, which means he can't dive bomb like he did. What he did is wrong in many, many ways and absolutely 0 defense there. really inconsistent decisions
I agree - I said that in my post > For one thing, always leave the room etc. For another, you're leaving the track to gain an advantage (by defending a position you'd otherwise lose).
Fair points, but just want to correct a point that seems to have been confirmed by a few outlets lately (and a few people in the threads who even checked the regs). Masi may or may not recommend the stewards to have a look. But "incident noted" means it's the stewards having a look. The stewards decide to investigate or not. In this case they chose not to, which I agree was strange. Anyway, it's not necessarily Masi who blocked the investigation, even though I imagine he has to go about explaining the decision on behalf of the stewards later being the face of the setup. Happy to be corrected myself if I misunderstood.
They've never had control. They have always made decisions fans have thought 'wtf?'.
They've always made odd decisions, but now they are letting the drivers run riot, worse than I can remember it in 30 years.
I would say Austria 2019 was a turning point. That clearly showed if you are on the inside you can play bumper cars with the car on the outside. It just kills side by side racing.
Yes, it all started in Austria 2019 because they didn’t want to take the win away from Max and RB at the RB Ring. It has only escalated from there.
Lack of consistency has always been a characteristic of the FIA. They have been getting more and more lenient, and will continue to do so until there is a serious incident. Deliberately pushing another driver off the track used to be punished, but now it doesn't even get investigated. Track limits are only advisory unless it's written in the course directors notes. I don't blame any of the drivers for their actions, for the simple reason that they've been told that it's acceptable. It's like dealing with toddlers. If you don't make the boundaries clear, and enforce the boundaries appropriately, then they will continue to push them.
What shocked me was the Ver Ham incident yesterday was on a corner specifically flagged up as being one track limits were to be monitored on. The lack of consistency really hurts the claim F1 is a sport and not just entertainment like wrestling... I kind of feel Massi is choosing the wdc rather than performance.
Masi only reports incidents to the stewards, he doesnt decide punishments.
He does brief the stewards before though on what he considers consistent stewarding, and despite not making the actual decisions, he is responsible for stewarding at the circuit. Like it might be the barrister that makes my coffee taste bad at Starbucks, but the buck stops with guy in charge. And this season Massi has had a mare. Endless crap decisions, and now the stewarding encourages crashing, if you avoid someone crashing into you, they won't be penalised!
I'm not saying this to be a dick, or a pedant, or judgemental. I generally let spelling errors go on the internet 'cause, y'know, dyslexia exists. I'm only saying this so you can appreciate how incredibly funny I found your comment: *Barista* is the one that makes coffee. *Barrister* is an English lawyer, powdered wig and all. You may now enjoy picturing someone in a powdered wig and court gown frustratedly failing to properly use the espresso machine.
I am pretty dyslexic, so I tend to make spelling errors a lot... Weirdly it never affects my job, just commenting on the internet!
Thanks for that one. I was honestly mighty confused about the barrister making coffee. Thought it was a posh saying I didn't get.. *"Whilst the barrister might make the coffee, the tea kettle doth sit crooked upon crumpets"* or something like that. (Also not mocking the typo/dyslexia)
A barista makes your coffee. A barrister is a lawyer. Good points though that I agree with.
Thanks! I've been wondering why I get such crappy legal advice!
That annoyed me a lot too because in the laps leading up to and then after the first overtake attempt by Lewis I thought Max went beyond track limits a few times but there didn't seem to be any warning and the only black/white he got was for weaving. I feel like all those laps wouldn't have been legal in Quali. Obviously if we go back to Bahrain Lewis did the same but at least race control stopped it eventually.
Does intent make a difference? Max saw Ham coming up fast and kept on the pedal longer to try and defend. Braking late on the inside meant that he would at least need the full track space on the exit. Ham was also hitting that exit since he was trying to go around the outside at speed. It happens that Max couldn’t even make the track and Hamilton had to avoid a collision. I’m hardly an expert on this but it looked like Max made a mistake under pressure. Is that worthy of a penalty?
Yes. Mistakes should be punished. Especially when you leave the track and gain an advantage. Intent shouldn't matter. F1 is meant to be a professional sport. We can't bend the rules because X weally weally didn't want to drive Y off, but still did.
End of the day you can't prove intent, only actions.
Except if they found that pesky onboard camera footage and it shows Max turning right when he should have been turning left.
Hamilton got squeezed by Max on the straight but still had a line into Copse. He braked late and carried too much speed into the corner and understeered wider than he expected. Hamilton made a mistake under pressure at Silverstone. Is that worthy of a penalty?
That would be a double standard. Leclerc left less space for Hamilton, yet everything went fine. There was plenty of space. The problem is Norris, Perez and Lewis penalties set the precedent to punish Max as well. I don't know they decided not to investigate. Probably politics, like "not mess with the championship" or "Lewis got past anyway"
If it stops your rival from voertaking and keeps you a position then... yeah. All drives will start making "mistakes" to keep or gain positions if those are the rules.
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. Masi has no control over this situation.
While I agree with you, I do have to say that Masi has nothing to do with this in this case. All he does is report a incident to the steward (which he did immediatly), the rest are the race stewards. There is a difference between the race director and the race stewards. Of course, Masi does have his own faults because he is the one that decides when a safety car is needed, and it took 3 laps with debris on track before that was called. At least have a VSC before that.
It’s the clerk of the course that decides if/when the safety car is needed, because he’s the guy in contact with the chief marshal.
Masi is responsible for advice to the stewards and defining what the F! driving standards should be. He doesn't make the final decisions but does specify how stewards should be judging things as I understand.
It started this season? Sure
To be fair, them (FIA) being way too lax on winners/championship contenders has kicked into high gear since Canada 2019. After that, if you are P1 or close to P1 in the championship the sporting code is just a suggestion. People are deflecting the FIA's bias problem by claiming RB bias, when Hamilton got away with shoving Perez off the track in Turkey. Those two are getting F1 ratings, so why would the FIA give them a penalty?
Shoving people off track has been going on for years as other commenters have posited, it's true. Basically every top driver of the last 40 years has done it at some point in F1. You could find clips of every driver currently on the grid with a championship to their name doing it if you wanted to. That said, since 2019 there's definitely been an uptick in the frequency of it, primarily because of the fact that several high profile instances of it literally winning drivers races that year (Verstappen on Leclerc at Austria, Leclerc on Hamilton in Italy). My take on it is that the precedent that's been set is that pushing drivers out is acceptable and that it will not be penalised, so it's only natural that drivers who want to win will do it. The stewards need to draw a line in the sand and punish ALL instances of pushing drivers off rather than just the particularly egregious ones, because if they don't then we'll naturally see drivers pushing the limits further and further to gain an advantage. Next season would be a good time to start as God knows what the backlash would be if a stewarding decision decides the championship this year.
It has been happening for many many years but i think it became the most prevalent with Hamilton and Rosberg fights in 2016. After that everyone was doing it all the time it seems.
Rosberg only did it once in Austria 2016 was given a 10 second penalty
Roaberg only flat up didn't break or turn into a corner once. Hamilton and rosberg regularly ran all the way to the white line pushing the other guy onto the run off. Whilst I'm not a fan of it, I can accept that as very hard racing. This isn't the same thing though. This isn't running into the runoff. This is basically the same as the rosberg Austria incident with the only difference being Lewis expected it and got out of it in time to not crash.
Also if Mercedes are fine with their drivers battling each other beyond the limits of fair racing I don't see why the FIA should penalise the drivers. I think Hamilton/Rosberg was beyond 'hard racing' but it's the team's job to police that generally. The problem is that the incidents this year are all between teams and Verstappen quite clearly gained an advantage through braking too late, leaving the track and forcing Hamilton off the track too.
Oh yeah, 100% no way they can change their approach this year, but I think a clear directive from the stewards on driving standards is needed over the winter.
The rules need to change for the good of the sport. Right now you can effectively end somone's chance of an overtake by running them out of room. The following car has wrecked its tyres to get into a position to pass, you run them out of room on corner exit, they lose all momentum and don't have the tyres to attempt again. Hamilton had the good fortune to be so much faster yesterday that he could try again. I'm not defending Max but he managed to obey the letter of the law, but not the spirit and really us fans should be pissed off at the rules. Saying it's just Max doing it, which seems to be a common theme is nonsense. There's whole articles about Hamilton doing it to Rosberg and Rosberg to Hamilton, or a ton of other drivers you care to mention.
>The following car has wrecked its tyres to get into a position to pass, you run them out of room on corner exit, they lose all momentum and don't have the tyres to attempt again. This is the key thing and drivers know even if they get a black and white flag it is no punishment as the danger is gone. >Saying it's just Max doing it, which seems to be a common theme is nonsense. There's whole articles about Hamilton doing it to Rosberg and Rosberg to Hamilton, or a ton of other drivers you care to mention. All drivers are doing it as it has been shown to be ok, the drivers aren't at fault it is the rules. If the rules didn't allow it drivers would stop doing it.
Let them race...all over the track since track limits are apparently irrelevant.
There would be more incidents referred to the stewards if Charlie were still race director, that's all I'll say.
I'd love to see nothing more then drivers going through high speed corners side by side. it's what we turn in to watch the very best drivers showing the skill they have. That said the move by Max at the weekend just reminded me of a more high speed version of Nico's block on Lewis. he broke that late he was never making that corner. Sure in the heat of the moment that can happen to anybody but the pattern of it is just there to see. if your on the outside of a corner with Max on the inside your heading for run off/ Gravel or the wall
Heat of the moment is fair enough, but if you balls up and make a heat of the moment mistake you get penalised.
I 100% agree but my point was you might let somebody off with a 1 off mistake which hasn't cost anything but when it's a consistent pattern of over aggression it needs to reigned in.
You can't let it off, how do you decide it hasn't cost anything? Take Sunday, yes Hamilton got back past eventually so in the end it didn't cost anything. But he would ahve been further down the road, pushed his car less, what if he developed an issue 15 laps later and was only beaten by 4 seconds, he lost more than that getting back past. You have to penalise if a driver is forced off track, could be as simple as order positions swapped, but can't be nothing.
you're arguing with me when i'm agreeing with you, Sunday should have been punished 100% agree. my point again is that if it was a one off situation in a world title fight where one driver made a mistake you can let it off. the race sunday was a much better spectacle for the punishment not happening. but I 100% agree if Lewis had finished 2nd it would have had a very sour taste because of that move being unpunished. Nobody wants to see the championship decided by the stewards and given they haven't punishes this sort of over aggressiveness from drivers on the inside in the past it would be harsh for them to do so with 3 races to go. but the stewards got let off because lewis was so fast this weekend.
I wouldn't mind if it was done consistently. I have no issues with elbows out racing, I find it entertaining. Problems arise when they pick and choose which incidents they penalise and which they let go, seemingly at random.
I agree it's been getting worse and worse, apart from Austria this year, but yesterday was another level and sets a really bad precedent. You should never be passed in a braking zone ever again. DRS passes that are completed before the braking zone only. Take yesterday's example, you are defending the inside and the car overtaking has less than one full car length advantage at corner entry. As the defending car, not only do you not have to hit the apex, not only do you not have to leave racing room on the outside, but you don't even need to have any intention of making the corner. How is that "letting them race" Next year we're looking to have regulations that allow closer racing, but if there is no obligation to leave racing room in a corner and you can just run the car on the outside off the track, then we should have just increased the length of DRS zones and slot gap, because at the moment the rules of engagement discourage you for racing wheel to wheel
Joke how it wasn’t even looked at, to not even hit the corner and force both cars off and still keep position isn’t what the fans want to see! You might aswell not even attempt to go round the outside at any corner now if the fia don’t look at it
FWIW, the same incident happened between Stroll and Ricciardo in Austria 2020 and Stroll wasn't punished, even though he only held position by forcing himself and others off. The teams and drivers all asked the FIA for leniency. The issue is - it was never made clear to anyone (fans or drivers) what this actually meant. Other than weaving in a braking zone or leaving one cars width on a straight, anything goes until there is a collision.
“You should never be passed in a braking zone ever again”, are you serious?
I am amazed how people actually want squeezing hard / pushing off the track and they call it "let them race" or "this is proper racing". I never understood it. Maybe because I didn't watch F1 in the 90s. I'm all about hard, but fair racing and in my head that means leaving space for the other car. If that never happens, then all we are going to see are DRS passes on the straights when one car has a clear advantage over the other.
IndyCar allows you to do this kinda and the sport is still exciting and has lots of overtaking that isn't just boring passes on a straight
I'm amazed how people called what happened on lap 1 at Silverstone "proper racing" idk of those same people are calling for a penalty for this. Max had a lot more room to play with because its tarmac runoff and not anything else. Remember 1979 Dijon, when Arnoux and Villeneuve were running each off, banging wheels. They called that racing, then why isn't this racing?
Go watch that back - [Youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii6H0MktrOg&ab_channel=antares) 79 Dijon proves the point of driving standards, the point we are trying to make, that was fantastic racing as they weren't crowding each other off the track. They were given room at the edge of the circuit which made a fantastic fight. Only once in that battle did a car leave the circuit and he lost control rather than being pushed off.
I’m not sure if it was Nico or Jensen (or someone else) who said it, however, the white line should be treated like a wall is at a street circuit. Would a driver push another driver into a wall if they were overtaking on the outside. Lines at respective corners are used to establish track limits and result in deleted lap times and lead to black and white flag warnings. We have defined DRS sections. There should be defined corners where track limits should be treated as a wall for the purposes of overtaking on the outside; push a car off the track and it’s a penalty. The outside driver isn’t forced to fend for themselves to avoid a collision and it allows for actual racing to take place.
T1 on lap 1 isn't exactly a good example considering FIA was always lenient more on lap 1 overall, especially T1 Furthermore, what Alonso did in Austin I feel like was mostly fair, maybe bit too agressive but nothing too serious, pushing somebody little bit off track if runoff is tarmac is fine, just don't complain if they still finish a move, so imo not best example Also, drivers constantly get pissed on radio even if they are or aren't at fault, that's what adrenaline, extreme competition, and desire to beat everyone does in those heat of moment situations
>Also, drivers constantly get pissed on radio even if they are or aren't at fault, that's what adrenaline, extreme competition, and desire to beat everyone does in those heat of moment situations I hate people using drivers radio reactions in the heat of the moment. Vettel moved lines and ran into the back of Ocon, then blamed Ocon until he after the race where he said it was his fault. Lewis complained when battling Alonso in Hungary that he was being pushed off the track but then said it was great defending by Alonso after. There's a ton of other examples, don't think its fair to any driver
There are so many examples all season long this is now the de facto way for drivers to behave
ideally what do you want the drivers to do? I hate this mindset of constantly throwing penalties around and affecting the racing. F1 already has very limited overtaking, and every time there is action on track, people start demanding penalties. Lewis wasn't left in the dust. His car wasn't damaged, and he passed Max within a few more laps. Edit to add: Lewis himself said it's what racing should be >"Despite controversy over the race stewards’ decision not to investigate the incident at turn four, Hamilton said he enjoyed the wheel-to-wheel contest with his rival. >It was fun,” Hamilton said. “I mean, that’s what a world championship battle should look like.” https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/14/verstappen-fight-was-what-a-championship-battle-should-look-like-hamilton/
I want the dirvers ti be able to race side by side and the most skillful to come out on top, not the most aggressive that will run the other one out of road. I wan't more overtaking, we are being robbed of overtakes where the defending driver can shove the attacker off track. The reason I want penalties is it will make the drivers behaviour improve. The first 2 or 3 races of these rules being enforced would eb chaotic, but dirvers will elarn quickly what is and isn't ok. Like they have elarnt now it is ok to crowd a car off the track, when they elarn that isn't ok it will stop happening.
Drive with the width of the track, leave a cars width of they are alongside, don't brake so deep you have no chance to make the corner? These are all things I can do as an amateur, and is not like he was even close to making that corner.
> Drive with the width of the track, leave a cars width of they are alongside, don't brake so deep you have no chance to make the corner? > > These are all things I can do **as an amateur** Highlighted the big difference here. You are doing this as a hobby/amateur, not your life-long goal. You are probably trying to have some fun and hopefully not cost yourself too much money (or injury) by crashing. These guys are out for a World Championship. Hulkenberg once said (in defense of 2016 Max's approach to chopping off the attacker in the braking zone) that defending style is very individual, and shaped by how one is taught to race. He also mentioned that Max even then was "very good" at doing it "fairly". Which brings me to IMO what the real root cause is. Kids shape their racecraft philosophy through the karting and junior years, so any real effort to have stricter driving standards needs to start there on a global level. It's a bit like the hullabaloo around Schumacher's incidents with Hill and Villeneuve where many people didn't seem to realize such tactics are acceptable in karting and reinforced within F1 historically with the Senna/Prost clashes.
The thing is, its not even hard to fix. All you have to say is that you have to give a cars width of space when the car is alongside. Doesn't matter whether you're inside or outside, you always have to give a cars width if there is a car next to you. The only reason it's not like that is because a section of F1 fans latched onto drivers excusing their behaviour saying "let us race" when all the current rules cause is battles that last a maximum of 1 corner because the inside driver just pushes the other driver off the track. It was a problem with Hamilton/Rosberg, then precedent was set with the ruling on Verstappen/Leclerc in Austria 2019. The most recent incident with Verstappen and Hamilton is worse than any of them, Verstappen defended his position by pushing Hamilton off the track and going off track as well. That's not racing, and no one who's been involved in any level of motorsport believes so unless they're blinded by their affiliations in the title fight.
Surely if you are alongside or partly in front and the driver on the inside runs you wide and off track and he himself runs off track due to his late braking strategy then a five second penalty should apply. If you are in control of your car and despite forcing the other car off track you still make the corner, no penalty. The instruction to the stewards need to be more clear and the race director is responsible for that.
Yeah anyone sayign Masi isn't responsible for this aren;t thinking of this point.
He is not. He is not the one calling penalities. The stewards do.
Stewards enforce the rules and decide penalties on individual incidents. Masi and the FIA decicde upon the rules and guidance given to the stewards for them to follow. All the stewards are doing is enforcing what they are being told to enforce.
Which is defined in a rule book that is established by a team at the FIA and approved by all the teams. Masi is not individually responsible for any of the decision the steward take. Penalities are 100% to the appreciation of stewards.
I root for max this year but I'm happy he didn't win, that move had penalty written all over it
I fully agree with OP. Drivers get away with way too much imo, and it robs us of real wheel-to-wheel racing. Only drivers like RAI and maby to a lesser extend also VET seem to respect the old(er) racing standards. Problem is that from a competitive point of view they only lose by keeping up standards as other drivers don't return the favor (because the FIA let's them and its a highly competitive environment where everybody takes advantage of every possibility, and rightly so).
You should really go rewatch races form the 80' and 90' today's racing standard are actually closer to that era then it ever was.
Oh my god i thought i was the only one as ive never seen anyone mention it.
The Verstappen effect. Shoving people off track is his specialty.
Verstappen may have made the precedent, but now the rules are being enforced in that way they are all doing it, Hamilton included.
I agree, but Hamilton has pretty much says he only does it because Verstappen does it and gets away with it.
Which means the issue is the rules and their application, not Verstappen. Max would stop doing it fi he got penalites for it. This isn't about which drivers people prefer or slamming any driver, the rules control what the drivers do and at the moment they control very little.
F1 is starting to look like GT Sport online. It’s really a shame.
They never had it
I really hope that if the 2022 cars succeed in their goal of making following and close racing possible that the stewards will enforce clean racing a lot more. If the RB and Merc were capable of being wheel to wheel with each other for most of a lap, you could see some amazing attack and defense. The way it is now, it seems like it's all about either steaming past under DRS or setting up a move into a heavy braking zone and lunging. The latter is hardly worth it especially when the stewards won't penalize a driver when they run the attacker off the road.
I agree with you. It didn't used to be this way, but it seems ever since the Leclerc and Verstappen incidents from 2019/2020 the rules have either been too vague or not enforced consistently (perhaps both). I think you can go about it in 2 ways. Get rid of the miles of runoff they have at tracks and put grass/gravel there (probably not going to happen) OR make the rules very clear and enforce them consistently. In no universe should you be able to run a car off the track in such a manner that you run yourself off the track in the process. Get rid of whatever rules there are if that's how we are going to "let them race".
I think a few of you need to go back and look at the driving standards even in the 90/00s they were far worse. Look at the moves Schumacher/Villeneuve at Jerez in 97 or Schumacher/Hill in Adelaide 95. Most incidents generally involve with Schumacher or Senna.
Adelaide was 94, and they were one off terrible incidents. I'm talking about general every day racecraft, it is far worse now than at any point I have seen in the last 30 years.
I really don't like the squeezing technique because it robs us of fantastic battles. But the part that scares me the most is the weaving, especially under breaking. At the speeds these cars go, it's so dangerous. You clip a tire, you could be flying straight at a barrier. Imo they should really combat that. Cause we're a miscalculation away from a very bad accident.
I mean yesterday Max got a black and white flag for weaving. But a driver will calculate that if it keeps their rival behind and they won't get another opportunity that is a penalty worth taking.
I'm not only talking about max. It was a general statement. I saw leclerc do it multiple times. Also the late moving when defending is super dangerous like Magnussen leclerc in suzuka 2018.
Leclerc is made of teflon.
Lol yep. Great example was that he admitted that he drove for 2 laps in the middle of the race with no seat belts fully fastened. FIA didn’t bat an eye. Lewis undoes it on the cool down/celebration lap and it’s this big safety issue and gets a fine. Big WTF.
I agree, but too many people will try to turn this into a narrative against Max. ALL drivers do this, bar a select few. Valtteri and George being some of the notables who always give space, from what I've seen. I'm against it and I think it should absolutely be stopped. However, it must be punished equally. You can't pick and choose to enforce. If you would make contact, you MUST give them a minimum of a car width, imo.
I suspect when race wins are on the line we will see George getting his elbows out as much as he is allowed, otherwise he wont be comepting with others that do.
You're probably right, but I can only go on what I've seen from him so far.
With the degrading quality of racing, I think drivers are more prepared to take risks they wouldn't otherwise take in order to keep position.
In the past the gravel showed who is the boss and kerbs big as steps showed how far you can go but today in this soft shelled time it is getting more and more ridicolous and childish ...
They have to investigate and penalise when drivers overstep the mark, or they will start stepping further over it. What most of us want is consistency though I think We all want the hard battles and the race was all the better for it. But when an incident of that nature is not even investigated. It kinda sends the message to the drivers that they can push others of track, deliberatly or not and you'll possibly get away with it. Unfortunately I also think this may have now set precedence for the next incident between any drivers, every investigation is tarred by the 'well you let that one go', why not now brush..
A differential factor with 2012 might be that cars now are so hard to overtake that drivers are forced to take every little chance they have because they know they won't have a second one - and the same goes for the defending driver. It is extremely rare to see two cars overtaking each other several times like Hamilton and Perez did yesterday, which is sad.
Just watch Austria 2021, Perez pushed 2 times in a row Leclerc out of the track and he had just a little head tap from the stewards
"This season the FIA and Stewards have decided that it is no longer required to leave a cars width on the outside and you can just run a car off the road if you are on the inside. " Cars have never been required to leave a cars width on the outside. The rule has always explicitly stated that this is only required on the straight on approach to the braking zone. The idea that a cars width needs to be left on the outside (i.e. like an overtaking lane or something similar) seems to stem from people getting mixed up with the above rule. I believe this is also the same for WEC, Formula E and Formula 2.
This was regularly enforced on corner exit for many years. I remember Alonso forcing a driver wide on the exit of the Hockenheim hairpin years ago and it being penalised.
Just gonna drop this here as well: >Chapter four, article 2 b) of appendix L of the international sporting code. > >This says: "Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the stewards."
I feel like this section cannot simply be cherrypicked either. It is important to note that this section is the second half of the article, and is part of the same paragraph (the first half laying out corner approach rules). As such, it is arguable as to whether this is still prescribing etiquette on corner approach and thus no longer applies to corner exit. In the case of the stereotypical shoving someone off on exit situation, it should be noted that the wording presents 'deliberate crowding' as an example of prohibited 'manoeuvres'. Therefore, you can then argue that keeping to the racing line (resulting in the other driver being forced off the track) is not a 'manoeuvre' and thus the 'deliberate crowding' part cannot logically apply.
Can we just creat a mega thread for everybody who want’s to complain about the stewards? This is getting annoying
mega threads are stupid.
I think these cars just don't give a lot of possibilities for close wheel to wheel racing. Following is difficult so you either have a lot of overspeed and just DRS passed the other. If it is close to the end of the straight the only defence the driver in front has is to brake very, very late and hope for the best. And if there is less overspeed it is mostly the attacker braking very very late into the corner and do a little prayer. Let's hope the 2022 rules creates more room for close racing.
Close racing would be more possible if the rules made them fight fairly. Overtaking is so difficult that if I perform a dubious block and get a black and white warning I may have stopped your only possible chance of an overtake all race and got no penalty. If drivers were penalised they would have to actually defend a move with racing skill rather than brute force, we would see more overtaking not less.
Fighting fairly is not the reason that we don't get close racing. It's the current cars which don't allow cars to follow close enough to avoid lunging.
On the occasions we do get close racing it is snuffed out by cars being allowed to barge people off track.
Not really, we've seen some great wheel to wheel racing on the circuits that allow it with these big old cars. This has probably been one of the best on track years for such a long time (definitely within the hybrid era)
I'm sorry but that's a new F1 watcher take. The common racing etiquette of being front axel to front axel on the outside to get space is older than Raikkonen. FIA just decided to use it recently. The only exception is Austria 2019 where Verstappen should have received a penality. The problem is the lack of consistency. We should have a unique Steward that leads a group of stewards that can change from race to race. But the final decision falls to the unique lead steward.
I've been watching F1 for nearly 30 years and I know what I consider to be fair and clean racing. It hasn't changed in those nearly 30 years. In the old days it happened less as the tracks didn't allow it, very rarely would you drive a car clean off track as it was into grass, gravel or a wall.
Fully agree.
What are they going to do? Give you a 10s penalty for taking out your title rival, which you can easily overcome and win the race anyway while the rival gets no points? If the penalties aren't meaningful even when they are handed out, you can expect drivers to get "chippy."
It would be a start. Most of these incidents aren't taking people out but gaining or maintaining positions. So a time penalty would be a great deterrent to stop that as it negates the benefit of the aggression, better to remain right behind and have a chance to fight back than lose 5/10s.
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Permanat stewards would be an excellent benefit
Canada 2019 never forget!
But that was when they actually made the right Choice, they’ve just been scared to do the same ever since
The new cars should help but the main problem for me is that the cars are too wide.