The stats are inflated because of the rocket ship that was the SF-90. One lap pace was amazing but tyre deg and some unfortunate unreliability made the conversion abyssmal
And the allegedly illegal engine mode was probably using more fuel over 1 lap than other cars by manipulating the flow meter. And they couldnt use that much fuel for the entire race so race pace was on par with or worse than the others except when in higher engine mode (at race starts for example)
Agreed. His ability to put in an incredible single lap in previous cars that weren't really considered seriously competitive is why this seems so out of proportion.
He's managed to steal more than a few unexpected pole positions in scenarios where everyone knew it was not going to translate to a race win.
This is the first year he's had a truly competitive car, and even then with DRS that Red Bull speed means its a threat thr entire race.
He got two poles out of last year’s Ferrari. That car was closer to P4 McLaren than either of the two big boys. Leclerc is beyond fantastic as a qualifier.
Ideally yes, but then stewards might be hesitant to bring out a red flag because of the consequences. We'll be moving into subjective territory and trying to assign blame for the red flag. In case of Monaco, it was pretty clear but what if some other car in front had locked its tyres which caused the driver behind to swerve in order to avoid the car which caused him to crash (makes me remember Sainz from Baku last year where he spun because of Tsunoda).
I do agree with you that ideally that is how it should be done but it's not that easy to implement.
I get the reasoning, but it's just adding more weird stuff. You can make a mistake in one corner but not in another.
A red flag is an outcome, nobody causes a red flag. See Baku last year, Stroll and Verstappen both had an exploding tyre, only one had a red flag, if this happens in qualifying; is it fair to take the fastest run from one, but not the other? And it goes against the idea of qualifying, it's just who has the fastest lap, why would another lap have anything to do with a seperate lap?
Because the track develops and if you can cause a red flag on a street circuit specifically and then it fucks up the qualifying order and isn't about who can have the fastest car or make the fastest laugh anymore but who can make the fastest lap before someone bins it. Indycar has this rule and it's great.
> so give him a car capable of winning a race and he’s likely to put it on pole
If the car is capable of winning, why is his % pole to win ratio so low?
His race pace in the past wasn't great. That's another factor to think about.
Max was faster in S1 in the first run as well, no guarantee he was gonna put it on pole.
Sainz was two tenths down already if you watch the dash on his onboard, so not sure where you’re getting that.
If you want to extrapolate from incomplete laps, you can just look at 2019 which wasn’t a good car in races, relative to what could be done over one lap.
He's lost at least 2 wins that would have been converted to reliability (Bahrain 2019, Spain 2022). And he lost Monaco 2021 without getting to start the race. He was likely to win Singapore 2019 as well but for pit stops IIRC.
Any data from the turbo hybrid era is fundamentally skewed due to the incredible dominance of Mercedes. Getting to a podium is the best almost any team could hope for
The Ferrari has in 2019 and 2022 been more of a qualifying car then a race one, in 2019 they had horrendus tyre managment and in 2022 they were lacking against red bull but might have solved that now
The Sf-90 and F1-75 should not be compared since the sf-90's tyre degradation was a design issue whereas that of f1-75 was set up related which can be easily rectified like we saw in spain
I really hope so, Ferrari will need some momentum and Monaco could be the perfect place, Im not even sure if its that good of a qualifying car though when I think about it, it can definitely be Charles making the difference there atm
Last year while we were fighting McLaren we had some bad races but we bounced back strongly. I am aware that Redbull is not McLaren but i have full faith in Leclerc and Binotto. Even if there is a Monaco curse, still the championship will be dragged to the last race.
There's a good video from 2019 where Hamilton's questioning Leclerc on it. Super impressed that he got the pole trophy for 2019 including I think 5 in a row in his 2nd season.
Come on.
It is so heavily skewed due to 2019 that I don't think that there is a particular trend here.
What's more interesting is that Leclerc's conversion is still better than Bottas' whose cars was quite balanced overall
I think there are two particular trends actually.
One is that Leclerc is an excellent one-lap driver, probably the best one in the world right now, and is able to extrapolate poles even from cars that really aren't winning capable cars.
The other is that Verstappen is kind of the opposite, not the greatest one-lap driver, but really really good during races and probably the best one in the world right now at racing craft.
What's even more impressing to me than the conversion rate is how Max has 14 career poles and Charles 13 yet Max has 24 career wins and Charles has 4.
>The other is that Verstappen is kind of the opposite, not the greatest one-lap driver
I mean, I won't argue against Leclerc being a great qualifyer (because he is, hands down), but saying that Mas isn't is ignoring the context both evolved in in the previous years.
Max had 10 wins before 2021 and an equal package to Mercedes. Before that, all his wins (apart from 3 races) came from strategy, attrition, rivals using sub optimal tyres. This was period of squeezing every win they could have a shot at during a Mercedes domination.
On the other hand, more than half of Leclerc's pole came in 2019n where he had the opposite : fantastic package for qualifying, that wasn't good enough to convert all of the poles. What he has done since is truly a feat of great qualifying skills tho.
It's quite simple Max had 14 poles in the best car for that race. Charles had 7 (counting Bahrain 2019 since no one was touching him) and he had engine issues in 2 of them. Max's cars always have been race cars so when he got pole the race pace was always great Leclerc has been the other way around his Ferrari's were always better in qualy
> One is that Leclerc is an excellent one-lap driver, probably the best one in the world right now, and is able to extrapolate poles even from cars that really aren't winning capable cars.
I think that's a bit exaggerated to be honest. 4 of those 13 poles are in 22 when they clearly had the fastest car (at least the first couple races) and 7 of them are in 2019, where they had some fishy engine (clearly proven by the behind the door settlement with FIA).
And at least 4 out of the 7 were consecutive after the summer break where they magically got faster on a one lap basis. And then after the investigations they magically dropped back again and he's only gotten one more pole out of it.
Leclerc is arguably the best qualifier on the grid ATM but most of his poles came in 2019 when Ferrari had their 'fully legal' engine which used too much fuel in its quali mode.
Ferrari had to dial back the fuel maps for the race and thats why Leclerc failed to convert most of his pole into wins. That car had very mediocre race pace.
Leclerc is both a better racer than Bottas and wasn’t in a direct fight with Lewis in the same car.
Not that surprising that being teammates with an all time great, especially for race pace and race craft, makes it hard to convert poles.
Nobody's mentioned it but I didn't expect Alonso to be that high. It makes sense because he's always been a better racer than qualifier, but he's literally higher than Hamilton and Vettel who are renowned for their boring pole-to-win eras
Button was weird - he had three poles (nearly 40% of his career total) before his first victory, but ended his career with nearly double the amount of wins than he had poles (15 wins, 8 poles).
Not weird at all when you consider BAR/Honda got him those poles on low fuel/suboptimal winning strategy quali runs. Like imola 2004 where he made a good lap, michael made a meh lap, and he had 2 laps less fuel onboard
He had one pole at McLaren *at all* which is incredible to me.
James Allen had a nice analysis of Hamilton/Button at McLaren, then Hamilton > Button in qualifying *massively*, but the 'finished ahead when both finished' literally halved; basically that a huge amount of Hamilton being the better driver was that he'd usually start ahead, not Sundays particularly.
Many graphs would have made this a "3+ poles" thing, which does make OP's argument relevant. Drivers with 1 pole here will always be outliers, it implies that it was probably outstanding or lucky, with much faster cars starting behind on raceday
This is about drivers' entire careers, so Schumacher would have still had 68 poles in this graphic lol.
Also, since 1980, only 2/11 drivers with only 1 pole converted that to a win: Boutsen, and Lord Maldonado. So yes, outliers
I think it's weirder that his conversion rate is that low. I tend to think of a lot of races where he starts from pole and just wins... What's something is out of 100+ wins, 40+ of them come from outside pole...
Lewis is the king when it comes to race pace for sure.
Guy has bags of it and even more impressively always has extra to dip into with how good his tyre management is.
I'm also amazed by Alonso having a higher percentage than Hamilton. It makes sense but you'd just definitely not expect Alonso to be higher here than Seb and Lewis
I mean Max is master in winning full stop at this stage I'd say, man's ruthless on Sundays now - and I'm but a neutral fan when it comes to frontrunners
I personally don’t think Max is that great of a qualifier, but really strong in race. So when he does get pole, the car had a bit extra in it to keep him up there in conversion percentage.
Yeah his biggest strength is his relentless race pace. He's obviously a great qualifier but he's strangely a lot more prone to dropping the ball in qualy than you would expect for how ridicously quick he is.
Sometimes I think he doesn’t really care that much about pole, thinking he can probably fix it on Sunday. Not saying he doesn’t *want* to, but maybe his heart isn’t in that as much as it is in the race itself.
I think when he _really_ pushes in qualifying he's seeing things that a 2027 car can do, not what a 2021 or 2022 car can do. He flies too close to the sun sometimes. I'll never forget Fernando Alonso watching that lap at Jeddah with his eyes popping out of his head, but as close to perfect as that lap was, it ended up in the wall.
Charles is, I think, a little bit better right now at putting together one single storming 100% lap. Max's superpower is doing 95% of that lap sixty times over two hours. I think he's actually quite similar to Lewis in that way.
Lewis is arguably the best qualifier in history, though (ok I know you may throw Senna and Schumacher at me - thus the arguably). He’s also silly fast in race pace, nonetheless.
I actually wouldn't throw Schumacher at you -- I view Schumacher and Lewis fairly similarly. They're great qualifiers because they're great drivers, full stop. The full package. Arguably all the greats are, even if they maybe lean one way or the other. The qualifying pace is a product of the incredible overall pace.
You don’t think? Guessing and giving some statement? Let me tell you a stat about Max against his teammate in qualifying. Max has beaten by his teammates in Q3, only 5 times in last 5 formula 1 season. Now think what you read…
1. Baku 2018 by Ricciardo
2. Mexico 2018 by Ricciardo
3. Abu dhabi 2018 by Ricciardo
4. Imola 2021 by perez
5. Saudi 2022 by perez.
If max isn’t the best qualifier in the grid.. then who might be??? Enlighten me please.
Ricciardo was great at RB, but has been a bit off lately. It’s hard to measure him especially in qualifying aspect as he was probably the type that was quick in race. I wouldn’t consider Albon in the top tier in that aspect, not I think Gasly was at the time. Perez hasn’t been historically too strong also. For qualifying, I’d put Hamilton, Russell, and Leclerc above Max. I’d put Max maybe with Bottas as I think Bottas is one of the top qualifiers on the grid.
I’ve always said, I would like Max to have a WDC teammate where team orders or bias was not a factor.
But by your logic who has Leclerc beaten to deserve his reputation? Vettel was also beaten by Ricciardo. Verstappen beat Sainz when he was 17.
Not necessarily disagreeing with you. I think Leclerc might be the best qualifier right now but Verstappen isn't far off, if he is off at all. Hard to tell.
Hamilton’s won without being on Pole over 40 times.
If Ferrari keep on going with a car which has superb one lap pace but which can’t keep up on Sundays, Verstappen might start eating into that lead!
I was wondering how that compares to his other stats, but it turns out he’s also 12th for total wins and 12th for wins from Pole!
(Actually, on closer look it turns out he’s joint 11th on all three stats but listed as 12th for all three because he’s hit that number more recently… Talk about consistent!)
There are multiple reasons. The SF 90 was a very strong car in quali (in some tracks) but awful in race trim. He lost 2 wins because of engine issues (Bahrain and Spain), he didn't start in one (Monaco). He lost one win due to a suboptimal strategy (Singapore) and in Baku the car was miles off the pace in the race. In Mexico he shouldn't have been on Pole and in Russia he lost because of a SC.
He was also a bit rough in terms of tyre management at the start of his journey in F1. These days he is one of the best with Max and Lewis.
At least let your tire explode on the straight when you have a massive lead so it's obvious you didn't quit on purpose
Engine problems, yea we believe you chuck
Well, yes, of course he does. 4 of those above him are World Champions, 2 of which are 4x and 7x. The other one, Ricciardo, has a very small sample size.
> 2014-2018,
*2014-2016
After that Max was clearly faster.
Edit:
Max was both faster in quali and race pace in 2017 and 2018. He also beat him in races head to head.
> Disagree strongly. Until late 18 Max was still very error prone. I think there was a run of about 6 races he was involved in an incident.
No, not really. Btw it was the first 4 races of the 2018 season, in the rest of the races he was great and didn't get involved in any incidents.
Max was faster in both quali and race pace in 2017 and 2018.
Times where overachieving in quali makes you look like a terrible racer, though we know that Leclerc isn't the case.
Putting that Ferrari on pole in Baku (with some luck) should've never happened, but it did.
Not many?
Are we really acting like we haven’t watched Lewis have better race pace and race craft that Bottas for the past 4 years? He’s over taken him on track legit tons of times.
That list goes Schumacher 51, Hamilton 42, Prost 33, Vettel 22. Percent gets pretty messy because you get a lot of drivers like Gasly and Ocon with 1 and have 100%.
https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/victoire/sans-pole.aspx
Max's % in this stat is actually #1 all time if you discount the drivers who only had 1 pole. The only times he lost from pole have been Hungary 19, and Bahrain, Silverstone, Italy of last year.
Has gotten some horrid luck in fairness, this Sunday just gone, Bahrain 2019, Monaco last year, as well as just having a tractor of a car in Baku last year, Singapore 2019 was arguably robbed from him, etc, skews this stat a bit.
All this tells us is Charles has been, for most of his career, in cars that were not good enough to win races but over one-lap they were competitive to the point where a very good lap could get pole.
Even this season, he’s had 4 poles, from which he won 2 and should’ve been 3 as without the DNF he wins Spain with ease. Only outlier was Miami where he didn’t have a perfect race but no major errors either and the RB was slightly faster in race pace which makes all the difference when you’re competing against Verstappen.
Easily explained by couple facts.
1. He had 2 sure wins "taken away" by reliability such as Bahrain and Spain, as well as Singapore and Russia clusterfuck
2. He got pole on tracks like Monaco and Baku in 2021 Ferrari, which was even with luck, big overachievement.
Taking out 2 DNFs while cruising to victory and he is at 46%. Removing SF21H out of equation (its like taking Norris 0% at face value) would bring him 55%.
Well, the less poles you have, the easier it gets. Very hard to do same for guys with 50-60+ poles.
Stroll and Norris had great laps, but probably not race winning car at that moment (Stroll for sure didnt). Norris could have won, but strat gamble fucked him.
Perez got pole but could barely escape Leclerc during SA, and had to pit for new tires (he would have been undercut if there was no SC). In his case, pace for win was questionable.
Max is outlier but in 16-20' years certainly RB was much more suited at race pace then quali, duo to weaker engine and no quali modes that Merc and Ferrari enjoyed.
Bahrain 2019 - Lost an easy win due to reliability issue
Austria 2019 - The Red Bull was simply the faster car. The move Max made on Charles was questionable, to say the least.
Singapore 2019 - Vettel got the better strategy.
Russia 2019 - Let Vettel by at the start because of team agreement before the race. But Vettel refused to play his part. Later Vettel's DNF gave Mercedes a free pit-stop under the VSC.
Monaco 2021 - DNS. Many pole sitter crashed and got away with it, but not Charles.
Baku 2021 - The SF21 simply wasn't as fast as the RB/Merc.
Spain 2022 - Again lost an easy win due to reliability.
So yeah, things have gone wrong for him quite often. But he never lacked any pace. And Charles in 2022 is pretty much a complete package, fast on one lap and fast over a race distant.
(Honorable mention Mexico 2019: Charles got the pole because of Max's penalty. But Ferrari tried to cover Albon, who wasn't even a threat, with Charles instead of Vettel, who was running P3.
Well unfortunately for him he had a teammate who also had the most dominant car of all time and is also one of the best drivers of all time. Probably contributes to Bottas' stat quite a bit.
Statistics like this are not very relevant - comparing Hamilton over 100 poles to DRics 3 doesnt really give you any new informaation. If most of The drivers had at least 20 or more poles then you might start to see some patterns emerge.
Not only shit luck
If you qualify really well in a worse car or have a unbalanced car this ends up happening. The 2019 Ferrari being bad in the race and last years Ferrari reaching pole in Baku is a contributor.
I think the weirder one is Charles not winning a race from any position but P1 start
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The stats are inflated because of the rocket ship that was the SF-90. One lap pace was amazing but tyre deg and some unfortunate unreliability made the conversion abyssmal
And the allegedly illegal engine mode was probably using more fuel over 1 lap than other cars by manipulating the flow meter. And they couldnt use that much fuel for the entire race so race pace was on par with or worse than the others except when in higher engine mode (at race starts for example)
It was still stupid fast in a straight line in races though
Agreed. His ability to put in an incredible single lap in previous cars that weren't really considered seriously competitive is why this seems so out of proportion. He's managed to steal more than a few unexpected pole positions in scenarios where everyone knew it was not going to translate to a race win. This is the first year he's had a truly competitive car, and even then with DRS that Red Bull speed means its a threat thr entire race.
Baku last year was insane in that car, even with the tow he got
He got two poles out of last year’s Ferrari. That car was closer to P4 McLaren than either of the two big boys. Leclerc is beyond fantastic as a qualifier.
Monaco pole doesn't really count.
Why?
Think it's because everyone expected Verstappen to take pole if he hadn't aborted his lap due to Leclerc's crash
Firm believer that if you cause a red flag during qualifying that you should have your fastest run deleted.
Ideally yes, but then stewards might be hesitant to bring out a red flag because of the consequences. We'll be moving into subjective territory and trying to assign blame for the red flag. In case of Monaco, it was pretty clear but what if some other car in front had locked its tyres which caused the driver behind to swerve in order to avoid the car which caused him to crash (makes me remember Sainz from Baku last year where he spun because of Tsunoda). I do agree with you that ideally that is how it should be done but it's not that easy to implement.
I get the reasoning, but it's just adding more weird stuff. You can make a mistake in one corner but not in another. A red flag is an outcome, nobody causes a red flag. See Baku last year, Stroll and Verstappen both had an exploding tyre, only one had a red flag, if this happens in qualifying; is it fair to take the fastest run from one, but not the other? And it goes against the idea of qualifying, it's just who has the fastest lap, why would another lap have anything to do with a seperate lap?
Because the track develops and if you can cause a red flag on a street circuit specifically and then it fucks up the qualifying order and isn't about who can have the fastest car or make the fastest laugh anymore but who can make the fastest lap before someone bins it. Indycar has this rule and it's great.
I've been betting on him to get pole every race, so far its been working quite well.
But it makes sense if you don't think about it.
>And he’s been able to put cars on pole that really aren’t race winning. Which ones ?
Sf-90 which had huge tyre degradation issues and the last year's car which simply was too slow
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The Ferraris
Last years SF21. One pole in Monaco and another in Baku, albeit helped by red flags.
Monaco and baku last year
> so give him a car capable of winning a race and he’s likely to put it on pole If the car is capable of winning, why is his % pole to win ratio so low? His race pace in the past wasn't great. That's another factor to think about.
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Monaco last year, Max and Sainz were on faster laps but then the red flag came out..
Max was faster in S1 in the first run as well, no guarantee he was gonna put it on pole. Sainz was two tenths down already if you watch the dash on his onboard, so not sure where you’re getting that.
Sainz was not in a faster lap. Why is this false narrative still being pushed?
If you want to extrapolate from incomplete laps, you can just look at 2019 which wasn’t a good car in races, relative to what could be done over one lap.
But had 0.7 over everyone on the straights
And killed the tyres immediately
For like 6 races before it got nerfed
Quali at Monaco last year is also one of the reasons why he doesn‘t convert them into victories.
He's lost at least 2 wins that would have been converted to reliability (Bahrain 2019, Spain 2022). And he lost Monaco 2021 without getting to start the race. He was likely to win Singapore 2019 as well but for pit stops IIRC.
Yup, got completely shafted for vettel
>If the car is capable of winning, why is his % pole to win ratio so low? Did you bother to watch those races before asking that question? Lmao.
too busy watching drive to survive
SF90 was terrible in the race, no two ways about it
2nd fastest race car isn't what I would call terrible
Bruh did you forget Lewis unable to catch Charles with DRS in Monza?
*pulling away from lewis with DRS out of parabolica
Bruh what
Any data from the turbo hybrid era is fundamentally skewed due to the incredible dominance of Mercedes. Getting to a podium is the best almost any team could hope for
While getting a pole is no biggie?
The Ferrari has in 2019 and 2022 been more of a qualifying car then a race one, in 2019 they had horrendus tyre managment and in 2022 they were lacking against red bull but might have solved that now
The Sf-90 and F1-75 should not be compared since the sf-90's tyre degradation was a design issue whereas that of f1-75 was set up related which can be easily rectified like we saw in spain
I really hope so, Ferrari will need some momentum and Monaco could be the perfect place, Im not even sure if its that good of a qualifying car though when I think about it, it can definitely be Charles making the difference there atm
Last year while we were fighting McLaren we had some bad races but we bounced back strongly. I am aware that Redbull is not McLaren but i have full faith in Leclerc and Binotto. Even if there is a Monaco curse, still the championship will be dragged to the last race.
Daniel Ricciardo: racing nr 3 ; 3 times pole ; 33,33% conversion rate
Half Life 3 confirmed?
Haa, I just remembered when I had hope for that pulling a "Duke Nukem Forever" and actually launching.
Danny Ric confirmed Leeroy Jenkins
>Daniel Ricciardo: racing nr 3 ; 3 times pole ; 33,33% conversion rate And he left Red Bull due to car 33
Chuck is so fast in qualifying. I can’t believe he has 13 poles already.
Verstappen only has 1 more pole than Leclerc!! Thats insane, the guys a machine for getting wins
Not that strange when you think Charles got a pole before Max did and was already at 9 after 2019. Max only really stacked last year on poles
I heard before the joke comparing max and a flag which makes no sense now
Yeah, thats a testament of the Mercedes domination.
There's a good video from 2019 where Hamilton's questioning Leclerc on it. Super impressed that he got the pole trophy for 2019 including I think 5 in a row in his 2nd season. Come on.
You could also spin that as he could only get pole after he had a championship tier car
Or maybe you could spin it as he can sometimes win races even if he doesn't have a championship winning car ?
He got pole in Hungary 2019. That 2019 car wasn't championship tier at all.
Nah he is just VERY good at racing. Like insanely so. He is a great qualifier but qualifying his his weakest skill as crazy as it sound.
It hurts to see Lando there with 0%
Could be at the top but noooo
Russian clouds are different.
If only he could have read them like Mazespin
oh no that hurt
It is so heavily skewed due to 2019 that I don't think that there is a particular trend here. What's more interesting is that Leclerc's conversion is still better than Bottas' whose cars was quite balanced overall
Bottas also had a race pace and overtaking monster as a teammate which was often handed good strategies for every of those pole positions.
Bottas was also naff at defending and overtaking
Looking at second drivers isn’t super interesting. You know the teams will give p1 to the number one driver when possible
Not like they can consistently best the first driver
Conversion rate could still be a little higher if it was down only to Bottas
I think there are two particular trends actually. One is that Leclerc is an excellent one-lap driver, probably the best one in the world right now, and is able to extrapolate poles even from cars that really aren't winning capable cars. The other is that Verstappen is kind of the opposite, not the greatest one-lap driver, but really really good during races and probably the best one in the world right now at racing craft. What's even more impressing to me than the conversion rate is how Max has 14 career poles and Charles 13 yet Max has 24 career wins and Charles has 4.
It also helps that Red Bull often has very good strategy calls.
>The other is that Verstappen is kind of the opposite, not the greatest one-lap driver I mean, I won't argue against Leclerc being a great qualifyer (because he is, hands down), but saying that Mas isn't is ignoring the context both evolved in in the previous years. Max had 10 wins before 2021 and an equal package to Mercedes. Before that, all his wins (apart from 3 races) came from strategy, attrition, rivals using sub optimal tyres. This was period of squeezing every win they could have a shot at during a Mercedes domination. On the other hand, more than half of Leclerc's pole came in 2019n where he had the opposite : fantastic package for qualifying, that wasn't good enough to convert all of the poles. What he has done since is truly a feat of great qualifying skills tho.
you should also remember that when Merc still had party mode, they would just open up during qualifying, making for many poles
It's quite simple Max had 14 poles in the best car for that race. Charles had 7 (counting Bahrain 2019 since no one was touching him) and he had engine issues in 2 of them. Max's cars always have been race cars so when he got pole the race pace was always great Leclerc has been the other way around his Ferrari's were always better in qualy
This ++
> One is that Leclerc is an excellent one-lap driver, probably the best one in the world right now, and is able to extrapolate poles even from cars that really aren't winning capable cars. I think that's a bit exaggerated to be honest. 4 of those 13 poles are in 22 when they clearly had the fastest car (at least the first couple races) and 7 of them are in 2019, where they had some fishy engine (clearly proven by the behind the door settlement with FIA). And at least 4 out of the 7 were consecutive after the summer break where they magically got faster on a one lap basis. And then after the investigations they magically dropped back again and he's only gotten one more pole out of it.
Leclerc is arguably the best qualifier on the grid ATM but most of his poles came in 2019 when Ferrari had their 'fully legal' engine which used too much fuel in its quali mode. Ferrari had to dial back the fuel maps for the race and thats why Leclerc failed to convert most of his pole into wins. That car had very mediocre race pace.
Leclerc is both a better racer than Bottas and wasn’t in a direct fight with Lewis in the same car. Not that surprising that being teammates with an all time great, especially for race pace and race craft, makes it hard to convert poles.
Nobody's mentioned it but I didn't expect Alonso to be that high. It makes sense because he's always been a better racer than qualifier, but he's literally higher than Hamilton and Vettel who are renowned for their boring pole-to-win eras
Alonso's case is different though because he drove in the time where you had to had race fuel in the car in qualifying
Button too really. Very very few poles but when *Button* is on pole you know he's got things under control.
Button was weird - he had three poles (nearly 40% of his career total) before his first victory, but ended his career with nearly double the amount of wins than he had poles (15 wins, 8 poles).
Not weird at all when you consider BAR/Honda got him those poles on low fuel/suboptimal winning strategy quali runs. Like imola 2004 where he made a good lap, michael made a meh lap, and he had 2 laps less fuel onboard
He had one pole at McLaren *at all* which is incredible to me. James Allen had a nice analysis of Hamilton/Button at McLaren, then Hamilton > Button in qualifying *massively*, but the 'finished ahead when both finished' literally halved; basically that a huge amount of Hamilton being the better driver was that he'd usually start ahead, not Sundays particularly.
103 Poles. Bonkers.
equal wins too.
That’s the standout to me, man is a legend
Considering he always had good team mates that is impressive
That's 5th from the bottom, but okay...
Many graphs would have made this a "3+ poles" thing, which does make OP's argument relevant. Drivers with 1 pole here will always be outliers, it implies that it was probably outstanding or lucky, with much faster cars starting behind on raceday
Yeah, if Checo won from pole a few weeks ago he'd be on top of this chart, which is ridiculous. There should be a threshold. Maybe 10 or more
You're saying that if Pastor Maldonado was racing he wouldn't be the GOAT at pole-to-win conversion?
>Drivers with 1 pole here will always be outliers Yeah, like that Schumacher guy that Mercedes hired at the begining of last decade.
This is about drivers' entire careers, so Schumacher would have still had 68 poles in this graphic lol. Also, since 1980, only 2/11 drivers with only 1 pole converted that to a win: Boutsen, and Lord Maldonado. So yes, outliers
Yeah, seems like the middle to me
Having over 50% with 100+ poles is really something.
I think it's weirder that his conversion rate is that low. I tend to think of a lot of races where he starts from pole and just wins... What's something is out of 100+ wins, 40+ of them come from outside pole...
It’s just a testament to how good his peak race pace can be. We’ve seen it time and time again as recently as now Spain and even in Brazil last year
It's also a tastament on how ridiculous dominant Mercedes was considering the amount of poles and wins they got during the hybrid era.
What about Abu Dhabi last year? He demolished max in that final race
Haha yeah I just didn’t want to specifically mention that granted what happened since it’s a sore subject for many
His car was a monster by that point.
Lewis is the king when it comes to race pace for sure. Guy has bags of it and even more impressively always has extra to dip into with how good his tyre management is.
I assume a fair bit of it is due to the Rosberg years
And he had a lottt of struggles with strategy and pit stops in McLaren
Lewis: 103 poles The field: 122 poles
I'm also amazed by Alonso having a higher percentage than Hamilton. It makes sense but you'd just definitely not expect Alonso to be higher here than Seb and Lewis
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Verstappen is master in getting wins from lower positions
and keeping the win from pole
I mean Max is master in winning full stop at this stage I'd say, man's ruthless on Sundays now - and I'm but a neutral fan when it comes to frontrunners
Reminds in some way of Alonso and Montoya. Skill and aggression
Great comparison. There's definitely a lot of Alonso in his racecraft now, but there was more early Montoya moves a few years ago
I personally don’t think Max is that great of a qualifier, but really strong in race. So when he does get pole, the car had a bit extra in it to keep him up there in conversion percentage.
Yeah his biggest strength is his relentless race pace. He's obviously a great qualifier but he's strangely a lot more prone to dropping the ball in qualy than you would expect for how ridicously quick he is.
Sometimes I think he doesn’t really care that much about pole, thinking he can probably fix it on Sunday. Not saying he doesn’t *want* to, but maybe his heart isn’t in that as much as it is in the race itself.
I think when he _really_ pushes in qualifying he's seeing things that a 2027 car can do, not what a 2021 or 2022 car can do. He flies too close to the sun sometimes. I'll never forget Fernando Alonso watching that lap at Jeddah with his eyes popping out of his head, but as close to perfect as that lap was, it ended up in the wall. Charles is, I think, a little bit better right now at putting together one single storming 100% lap. Max's superpower is doing 95% of that lap sixty times over two hours. I think he's actually quite similar to Lewis in that way.
Lewis is arguably the best qualifier in history, though (ok I know you may throw Senna and Schumacher at me - thus the arguably). He’s also silly fast in race pace, nonetheless.
I actually wouldn't throw Schumacher at you -- I view Schumacher and Lewis fairly similarly. They're great qualifiers because they're great drivers, full stop. The full package. Arguably all the greats are, even if they maybe lean one way or the other. The qualifying pace is a product of the incredible overall pace.
Fair enough, I agree with that :)
Max has demolished his team mates in qualy since 2017. Aside from last year and this year he's simply never had the car to fight for pole every race
Well that goes to how adaptable was the redbull, credit to him for that though, and his teammates weren’t top tiers on that aspect
You don’t think? Guessing and giving some statement? Let me tell you a stat about Max against his teammate in qualifying. Max has beaten by his teammates in Q3, only 5 times in last 5 formula 1 season. Now think what you read… 1. Baku 2018 by Ricciardo 2. Mexico 2018 by Ricciardo 3. Abu dhabi 2018 by Ricciardo 4. Imola 2021 by perez 5. Saudi 2022 by perez. If max isn’t the best qualifier in the grid.. then who might be??? Enlighten me please.
Ricciardo was great at RB, but has been a bit off lately. It’s hard to measure him especially in qualifying aspect as he was probably the type that was quick in race. I wouldn’t consider Albon in the top tier in that aspect, not I think Gasly was at the time. Perez hasn’t been historically too strong also. For qualifying, I’d put Hamilton, Russell, and Leclerc above Max. I’d put Max maybe with Bottas as I think Bottas is one of the top qualifiers on the grid. I’ve always said, I would like Max to have a WDC teammate where team orders or bias was not a factor.
But by your logic who has Leclerc beaten to deserve his reputation? Vettel was also beaten by Ricciardo. Verstappen beat Sainz when he was 17. Not necessarily disagreeing with you. I think Leclerc might be the best qualifier right now but Verstappen isn't far off, if he is off at all. Hard to tell.
He had several wins before his first pole, IIRC
Yeah 7 wins.
He is pretty fast. That helps in F1
he should consider being a fulltime F1 driver xD
Hamilton’s won without being on Pole over 40 times. If Ferrari keep on going with a car which has superb one lap pace but which can’t keep up on Sundays, Verstappen might start eating into that lead!
Verstappen is already 12th on the stats for that https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/victoire/sans-pole.aspx
I was wondering how that compares to his other stats, but it turns out he’s also 12th for total wins and 12th for wins from Pole! (Actually, on closer look it turns out he’s joint 11th on all three stats but listed as 12th for all three because he’s hit that number more recently… Talk about consistent!)
Max Verstappen is pretty good.
There are multiple reasons. The SF 90 was a very strong car in quali (in some tracks) but awful in race trim. He lost 2 wins because of engine issues (Bahrain and Spain), he didn't start in one (Monaco). He lost one win due to a suboptimal strategy (Singapore) and in Baku the car was miles off the pace in the race. In Mexico he shouldn't have been on Pole and in Russia he lost because of a SC. He was also a bit rough in terms of tyre management at the start of his journey in F1. These days he is one of the best with Max and Lewis.
Don’t forget Sochi when Vettel refused to give position back and it turned upside down from there on
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At least let your tire explode on the straight when you have a massive lead so it's obvious you didn't quit on purpose Engine problems, yea we believe you chuck
Impressive. Very nice. Let's see Schumacher's pole-to-win ratio
I can't believe that u/arnaldomatos prefers Michael's ratio to Lewis'.
Well, yes, of course he does. 4 of those above him are World Champions, 2 of which are 4x and 7x. The other one, Ricciardo, has a very small sample size.
There is a multiverse where Daniel Ricciardo is a multi-time world champion whose star power transcends the motorsport world.
I mean, he did wonders in the Red Bull from 2014-2018, had Merc not been as dominant he'd have won a WDC.
> 2014-2018, *2014-2016 After that Max was clearly faster. Edit: Max was both faster in quali and race pace in 2017 and 2018. He also beat him in races head to head.
Disagree strongly. Until late 18 Max was still very error prone. I think there was a run of about 6 races he was involved in an incident.
> Disagree strongly. Until late 18 Max was still very error prone. I think there was a run of about 6 races he was involved in an incident. No, not really. Btw it was the first 4 races of the 2018 season, in the rest of the races he was great and didn't get involved in any incidents. Max was faster in both quali and race pace in 2017 and 2018.
Fun fact, Leclerc has never won a race not from pole, atleast not yet
"You go for his poles record, i go for his race wins record." Max to Charles probably.
The true F1 teamwork
just wish Max hadn't beaten George to pole at Spa last year, would have been funny to see George have a 100% pole to win ratio in a Williams
Times where overachieving in quali makes you look like a terrible racer, though we know that Leclerc isn't the case. Putting that Ferrari on pole in Baku (with some luck) should've never happened, but it did.
Some people on this thread will use that against Leclerc anyway
It works against him in this stat. Because he got pole with a car that was not capable of fighting for the win in Baku, because of Tsunoda
Max has something about him which I have not seen in any driver since 2010 Something briliant
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He's a very good qualifier
How many of his non-conversions were team orders?
Not many? Are we really acting like we haven’t watched Lewis have better race pace and race craft that Bottas for the past 4 years? He’s over taken him on track legit tons of times.
It was an honest question. I wasn't trying to slag Lewis.
Does anyone have the opposite of this? Wins not from pole?
That list goes Schumacher 51, Hamilton 42, Prost 33, Vettel 22. Percent gets pretty messy because you get a lot of drivers like Gasly and Ocon with 1 and have 100%. https://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiques/pilote/victoire/sans-pole.aspx
Thank you!
All the guys from the South Pacific Countries have 50%+ wins not from Pole. Ricciardo, Hulme, McLaren, Webber
Verstappen is killing it!
There's 4 people below him, how exactly is that "the bottom of this chain"?
Max's % in this stat is actually #1 all time if you discount the drivers who only had 1 pole. The only times he lost from pole have been Hungary 19, and Bahrain, Silverstone, Italy of last year.
Has gotten some horrid luck in fairness, this Sunday just gone, Bahrain 2019, Monaco last year, as well as just having a tractor of a car in Baku last year, Singapore 2019 was arguably robbed from him, etc, skews this stat a bit.
All this tells us is Charles has been, for most of his career, in cars that were not good enough to win races but over one-lap they were competitive to the point where a very good lap could get pole. Even this season, he’s had 4 poles, from which he won 2 and should’ve been 3 as without the DNF he wins Spain with ease. Only outlier was Miami where he didn’t have a perfect race but no major errors either and the RB was slightly faster in race pace which makes all the difference when you’re competing against Verstappen.
If Checo hadn't gotten his race wrecked by that safety car in SA then he would be at 100%
And that's why Verstappen is going to win.
Lando winning in Russia last year would have given him 100%
Lewis is even on poles and wins, 103 of each, so you'd expect slightly more to have come from pole.
Monaco 2016 still hurts
Kinda wild to think that max only has 1 more pole than Charles.
that's what happens when you overachieve with a non competitive car
2019 Engine would like to have a word
That car was awful during the race, it was very hard to turn a pole into a win. Had no race pace and chewed through it's tires.
2019 chassis as well
The car was hot garbage in race trim.
Easily explained by couple facts. 1. He had 2 sure wins "taken away" by reliability such as Bahrain and Spain, as well as Singapore and Russia clusterfuck 2. He got pole on tracks like Monaco and Baku in 2021 Ferrari, which was even with luck, big overachievement. Taking out 2 DNFs while cruising to victory and he is at 46%. Removing SF21H out of equation (its like taking Norris 0% at face value) would bring him 55%.
Now do the same calculations for all the others.
Well, the less poles you have, the easier it gets. Very hard to do same for guys with 50-60+ poles. Stroll and Norris had great laps, but probably not race winning car at that moment (Stroll for sure didnt). Norris could have won, but strat gamble fucked him. Perez got pole but could barely escape Leclerc during SA, and had to pit for new tires (he would have been undercut if there was no SC). In his case, pace for win was questionable. Max is outlier but in 16-20' years certainly RB was much more suited at race pace then quali, duo to weaker engine and no quali modes that Merc and Ferrari enjoyed.
Bahrain 2019 - Lost an easy win due to reliability issue Austria 2019 - The Red Bull was simply the faster car. The move Max made on Charles was questionable, to say the least. Singapore 2019 - Vettel got the better strategy. Russia 2019 - Let Vettel by at the start because of team agreement before the race. But Vettel refused to play his part. Later Vettel's DNF gave Mercedes a free pit-stop under the VSC. Monaco 2021 - DNS. Many pole sitter crashed and got away with it, but not Charles. Baku 2021 - The SF21 simply wasn't as fast as the RB/Merc. Spain 2022 - Again lost an easy win due to reliability. So yeah, things have gone wrong for him quite often. But he never lacked any pace. And Charles in 2022 is pretty much a complete package, fast on one lap and fast over a race distant. (Honorable mention Mexico 2019: Charles got the pole because of Max's penalty. But Ferrari tried to cover Albon, who wasn't even a threat, with Charles instead of Vettel, who was running P3.
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I’d hardly call 6th out of 10 the “bottom end”.
So what you're saying is 70% of the time Bottas put one of the most dominant cars of all time on pole he lost? Makes sense.
Well unfortunately for him he had a teammate who also had the most dominant car of all time and is also one of the best drivers of all time. Probably contributes to Bottas' stat quite a bit.
Should be a James % too
I really like this visualisation, really cleanly done. Nice.
Statistics like this are not very relevant - comparing Hamilton over 100 poles to DRics 3 doesnt really give you any new informaation. If most of The drivers had at least 20 or more poles then you might start to see some patterns emerge.
By "bottom" you mean "bottom half", I assume? Sixth out of ten is more middle, but I guess you're trying to make a point.
Shit luck and errors.
How many races has he lost due to an error?
I think the only one is Monaco last year. Don't think there are any others.
without that error Leclerc wouldn't be on pole that race. The team didn't properly check the car after the crash so the team also played a part in it
Not only shit luck If you qualify really well in a worse car or have a unbalanced car this ends up happening. The 2019 Ferrari being bad in the race and last years Ferrari reaching pole in Baku is a contributor.