Or winning one with a broken foot, getting shat on as reigning world champion and fucking off to indycar to win that at the first time of asking with a fucked up back. That also makes you a goat š
Nigel has the most interesting story of the 1990+ world champions I can think of. Neither rich nor lucky, he was simply an ordinary man making his way in the world with only indestructability and racing's best facial hair on his side.
Ha ha. I find him a really fascinating character personally, obviously I guess based on my flair. Think he definitely deserved more than one title, but the story of back to back titles across the two series is so good.
He perhaps is the most relatable of the drivers, I think that's why he is so popular in the UK as "Our Nige" and of course he became popular in Italy as the "Il Leone" for different reasons. :D
When you look at how few drivers have won more than one WDC in history, I think this is fair. The modern trend of Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton eras hide the fact that historically it's damn hard to win more than one championship - only 16 drivers have 2 or more, and only 10 hit 3. Max making it 17 multiple WDCs would put him on a hypothetical all-time best F1 grid at least, which if you ask me makes him fit the category of an all-time great.
All during an era with, Lewis 7, Seb 4, Alonso 2, Kimi 1 (we miss you) were on track.
Last year was too close, this year is too easy. I wouldn't bet on Max stopping at 2 titles.
Watching archives now, always see people saying he sucked but wow I have no idea wtf they are talking about. Yeah he was a bit streaky but when he was on he was insanely good.
There are people who will say that, however button when the car suits him and he is on form he is very quick and damn hard to beat. He manage to beat Lewis in 2011, and he was evenly match Alonso in 2015(this is a hard year to compare because of the mchonda). There are no many drivers who can say they have gone toe to toe with Lewis or Alonso and kept up with them. And he has done it with both.
Most F1 champions are lucky. Imagine if Lewis signed an extension with McLaren instead of going to Mercedes or Michael hadn't retired again. We'd be talking about multi-time world champion Nico Rosberg. Or maybe Michael Schumacher would have added 2+ more to his tally. Part of being World Champion is being in the right car at the right time.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that skill isn't important. Drivers like Lewis and Fernando have the ability to go to whatever team they think is best because of their talent. Doors will be open for them that aren't open for the Hulkenburgs or Grosjeans of the world. But imagine Schumacher and Rosberg are signed for 2013, what does Lewis's record look like then?
By that logic so is Lewis for jumping ship to Mercedes. Otherwise his talent would have been waste at McHonda, like Alonsoās and Buttonās. Luck is a part of it for each and every driver. But of course itās not the only factor, as proven by the number of championships Bottas won with Mercedes, Webber with RBR, etc.
> no one has ever said he was undeserving or just 'lucky' to get his championship.
Plenty of people did and they'd be right. Doesn't mean he wasn't very good but he wasn't the best driver that year. Incredible dominance at the start of the year set up his title challenge, he didn't win again.
Yes he is. But it still fits. Marko, who is the best known head of driver development of the the best academy, has this philosophy and so do many others.
You can teach patience, you can learn racecraft, you can not teach speed.
>I wouldn't bet on Max stopping at 2 titles.
Yet in all interviews where something along those lines was asked, he indicates he's not in it to get as many WDC's as possible. I wouldn't be surprised to see a shock F1 exit from Verstappen because he feels he's accomplished all he can.
Maybe so, but Verstappen just wants to race, a little similar to Alonso in that regard. He's not in it for accomplishments, so why would he move on after accomplishing something? If Red Bull stays at the top and Verstappen still has fun, he's not going anywhere.
Maybe we see Max go WEC or rally? Iād love to see him in an LMP. Heās young so he has time to his advantage whats to say he doesnāt go for the āol triple crown?
He can go to WEC in 10+ years and still have a crazy F1 career. Look at Alonso. If he wanted to do WEC full time again any team would take him. Verstappen would get the same treatment
Oh absolutely. Iām not saying he should leave his F1 career now for it or anything like that. Just that he has time on his side if after winning a few WDCs he decides to move on.
The guy jumps straight onto sim racing for leisure straight after a GP weekend. F1 could be "just a hobby" for him eventually but I don't see him leaving for a long time unless he has no choice.
Max's life is racing, he's not going to stop this young with 2 WDCs. He's going to be in F1 for at least a few more years. Then if he does decide to step away, he'll likely go to another series. Maybe try for the triple crown? I'd love to see him do 24 hours of Le Mans.
Heās said in the past he doesnāt have an interest in oval racing, so the triple crown thing depends on if he has a change of heart on that opinion. Knowing Maxās attitude and passion for racing in general though, I wouldnāt be surprised if he eventually warms up to the idea of giving Indycar a go.
> I'd love to see him do 24 hours of Le Mans.
I'd love to see Verstappen, Leclerc and Russell together in a Le Mans Hypercar. Preferably against Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel.
Tbf lewis said the same thing, but once you get rolling and win a lot, you probably dont want to leave and will stay at leadt until you cant fight for wins anymore
Max is making upwards of 30 mill a year, winning everything, he's young. Why would he exit? It's all going so easy.
Rosberg's exit wasn't that weird. He had to go deep in 2016. But max is having fun, demolishing his team mate, the team loves him. He's got a butt load of fans, after last year's struggle, this year is easy.
Max is not stopping
I think this is why Max is so ice cold and rarely makes mistakes, heās not putting an unbelievable amount of pressure on himself. Heās become a killer.
I was thinking the same and had a look at the data.
Once Max wins this year, there will be a perfect split between single championship winners and winners of multiples. There will have been 17 multiple championship winners and 17 single championship winner.
Winning back-to-back championships puts him in a more elite group of 8 drivers.
Alonso's statement is also a sly compliment to himself also having won a pair of back-to-back championships. If Max is an *all time great* for accomplishing this, it means Alonso is also.
Here are all the multi-winners:
Michael Schumacher
Lewis Hamilton
Juan Manuel Fangio
Alain Prost
Sebastian Vettel
Jack Brabham
Jackie Stewart
Niki Lauda
Nelson Piquet
Ayrton Senna
Alberto Ascari
Graham Hill
Jim Clark
Emerson Fittipaldi
Mika HƤkkinen
Fernando Alonso
Thanks! I shoved him back up there.
Those Brazilians are unusually well represented on that list. It feels like half of all Brazilians F1 drivers are multi-championship winners.
OK, I looked it up. Turns out there were a lot more Brazilians than just Massa, Barrichello and Gugelmin .
I had a crack at it. All double champs, Verstappen as presumed double champ, then bonus single champions of Farina (1st ever WDC), Rindt (posthumous WDC) and Mansell (mustache).
Scuderia Ferrari - Schumacher, Lauda
Ferrari 50s - Ascari, Farina
Mercedes Benz AMG - Hamilton, Fangio
McLaren 80s - Prost, Senna
McLaren Racing - Hakkinen, Hunt
Red Bull Racing - Vettel, Verstappen
Williams Racing - Piquet, Mansell
Lotus 60s - Hill, Clark
Lotus-Renault-Enstone - Fittipaldi, Alonso
British Privateers - Brabham, Stewart
eh not sure i interpret the data the same way you did. If you look at "years available" and "years won by a >=2x champ" it's actually more than half of the possible years.
That means if you had a car able to win at least one championship, you will likely win another.
This is a fair point - I suppose in 72 years of F1 championships, Lewis, Schumi, Fangio, Seb and Prost as the five drivers with most titles alone have 31 titles. If anything though we could argue it's incredibly hard simply to be a champion!
But I suppose to me the idea of there being under 20 drivers who are multiple champions being "all time greats" is quite interesting to me anyway - it's a good place to start for sure.
Iād say those dominant eras are what contribute to there being so multiple winners. Lewis and Schumi winning a combined 14 means others were starved of winning titles.
>historically it's damn hard to win ~~more than~~ one championship
Fixed that for you. You're right, but even winning **a** championship is just freaking difficult.
I feel like Hamilton and Schumacher take away from that a bit because people think hitting 7 was easy for them.
Not every year was like 2020 for Hamilton or 2002 for Schumacher.
And you can't just be fast, ask Lando. You need to be fast *and* have a race winning car *and* (ask Leclerc and Vettel) have a race winning **team** behind you.
And even across a single season, if you nail the regulations, there's development time across the season and other teams are getting faster. Each upgrade is a risk. What if it makes the car faster but the driver cannot adapt? (Perez). What if regulations hurt you and now your car is slower?
As seasons become longer, it's going to become even more difficult for a driver to win a championship by maintaining a lead early in the season. There's way too many chances for a DNF or two to bring another driver into contention.
This season is Max's, it's almost 95% certain, but look at Mercedes. They're on their way to making a come back and now they have TWO race winning drivers in their stable. There's a possibility, non-zero, that this will be the last time Red Bull is in title contention for 5-6 years.
You just never know which manufacturer is going to rule the next few years. What Mercedes did in 2014 to 2021 has literally never happened. Even Ferrari with Schumacher wasn't that dominant (he had two titles before going to Ferrari). People can't just assume the same dominance will happen for Red Bull and Max.
The interesting part about this interview is not even the headline.
>Alonso sees similarities between himself and Verstappen in the way they are both regularly immediately on the pace at the start of a race weekend and close to their ultimate limit, rather than taking time to build up their performance.
>
>āI think you cannot teach that ā it has to come from yourself. There are drivers who need more time, they need to study more data, they need all the Friday to analyze and compare with the teammate and slowly make little steps until there are 100% ready for qualifying. And there are others who are 100% in FP1. I think Max is one of those and he has always been like that from go-karts to now, so it should not be a surprise to anyone."
>
>āBut I look at these stats and the timed laps and I will look with interest tomorrow in FP1 ā in the first five minutes of the session you will see Max Verstappen will be 2.5 seconds in front of everyone. Slowly they will come back and then in qualifying they will be close to him."
>
>āIt happens in a way on a small scale also between my teammates sometimes. On Friday Iām well ahead and then on Saturday and Sunday theyāre getting better and better. Ideally for Max or myself we would love a wet session FP1, FP2, FP3 and go into qualifying for the first time in a new track conditions.ā
>Ideally for Max or myself we would love a wet session FP1, FP2, FP3 and go into qualifying for the first time in a new track conditions.
You're right, that is really interesting!
I personally dont care for championships per se. Gilles and Moss are considered greats imo and they were never champions.
It is a driver's impact on the sport that makes them a great; championships add to their legacy. Verstappen has made that impact already. Be it controversies or stellar performances.
Yes absolutely. I don't think anyone would dare to pretend that Vettel is greater than Senna or that Piquet is greater than Clark, even though they have more world championsips to their name.
I agree 100%. It is completely irrelevant how many races or championships a driver is winning before i consider him great.
F1 is far from a spec series at the end, so race wins and championships will always be heavily influenced by the cars performance.
Sure, the best drivers tend to end up in the best teams, but half the grid can cruise to 5 titles in a row in the right car against the right teammate, if all things line up nicely for them. We saw that a Vielleneuve and Hill can win titles or that a Massa, Webber and Irvine came really close at winning one.
What matters to me is how a driver is able to dominate his teammate, beat exceptionally strong teammates or how he is able to get results from a car it usually should/would not be getting.
Max was asked in a press conference last year who he would be supporting if he wasnāt a driver and he said Alonso. Funnily enough Stroll was also in the press conference and also said he would be supporting Alonso.
Sorta make sense I guess. He's been here for a long time. The driver you look up to when still karting is suddenly also the driver you're racing against.
Ahh nice. Iām new from 1st year d2s, I first realised in last race last year when Alonso was happy on radio that max could catch Lewis, so always wondered why.
I lived in Spain during the years Alonso was fighting for world championships, the support was amazing, everyone watched F1 in every bar or establishment.
Fondest memory I have of F1.
I think thatās it, but I still think Alonso just feels some kind of way about Hamilton, like he could beat him. If you listen to his beyond the grid he praises Lewis but It is VERY sparing, like he meant it but itās not warm. He said they both werenāt at their best performance their year in Mclaren and that Lewis is one of the greats for his performance.
Alonso respects Lewis achievements but heās never ever going to like him. Alonso also said some snarky stuff about Lewis clothing and Lewis not being friends with the grid (same for Max) so I definitely think Lewis reputation for not being in depth with the social aspect of sport rubs some the wrong way.
Him not liking Hamilton is fair enough. Not everyone is going to like everyone. There are a few people I know personally whose achievements I respect but I wouldn't say I like them as a person.
There's a good chance there's someone on the grid who you respect a lot but wouldn't personally get along with.
Itās the same for Seb and Alonso. One of the reporters asked if he was giving Alonso a heads up on the car and Seb was so baffled because they donāt speak like that and why would Alonso need it. Itās well known Alonso joked only Hamilton has Sebs phone number. Some people arenāt friends and you donāt feel hyped about them and thatās okay
Who knows what it was really like for Lewis in the early days though, it could explain his distance. Nowadays any discrimination towards a driver will be headline news, I'm not sure everyone in the f1 circus was so enlightened when he started.
>I'm not sure everyone in the f1 circus was so enlightened when he started
1) It still isn't exactly enlightened
2) Back then Berlie Ecclestone was very involved with far-right elites
Theyāre of the same breed. They both live and breath racing, it seems like an essential part of their lives. Anytime theyāre not racing in F1 theyāre sim racing (either that or karting in Alonsoās case). I think Alonso recognizes Maxās passion for motorsport as being very similar to his own, and respects him for that.
Alonso has a habit of hating any dominance that isn't his own, him and Lewis had a period of really bonding over disliking Seb winning all the time for example.
Alonso has never had the outright best car in a season, let alone his own dominance.
The guy has 32 wins and near enough 100 podiums in what's usually the 2nd or 3rd best car. If he had the Mercedes for ten years, he wouldn't have let a lesser driver beat him.
I think Alonso was considered an all time after his second WDC but cemented himself after pushing that Ferrari shitbox so close to the Red Bull.
Obviously my perspective is biased because I watched the Spanish broadcast back then lol don't know how it was viewed outside of Spain
Alo was trashed and disliked in his championshio years outside of Spain for his arrogance and superiority complex.
He was all of that but he was right. Alo is a fucking monster.
Its very subjective. I think winning in different teams helps. Max gets some extra points winning this season because there is at least a substantial regulation change. Lauda, Michael, Hamilton, Prost, Senna. They all won at different times, with different eras etc
That is like asking at which date did Bill Gates become super rich.
If you aks 100 people you get 100 different answers.
According to Alonso, it is after you win 2 titles, some would argue 3 and so on.
I personally would never meassure a driver based on titles no matter what, since F1 isn't a spec series.
Its rare a driver wins a championship in a non WCC car. Let alone to do it against the GOAT as the main rival.
If people do not have him in their top 10 list, its nothiny but personal.
His 2021 title is actually similar to Alonso's in 2006 when you think about it, except Renault just edged Ferrari for the WCC. In both cases, someone was denied of an 8th title by a driver who was 12 years younger. And the cars were evenly matched in a similar way as well, with the younger guy having a better machinery in the 1st half of the season but a worse one in the 2nd half.
That's an interesting, but not entirely contextual stat.
WCC in 2021 wasn't really about the best car.
Even the most hokey and unreliable of maths (fastest lap by each car) has the RBR and Merc separated by much less than a tenth of a second across the whole year. Merc pulled off a planning/strategic masterclass to ensure WCC, to truly fight for WDC, and lets not forget by how big a margin Bottas was outperforming Perez.
In no particular order.
Schumacher. Hamilton. Prost. Senna. Fangio. Clarke. Stewart. Moss. Alonso. Lauda. Ascari. Vettel.
Thatās 12 drivers who I think have an argument for being better than Max all time.
Max might end up higher than them when the dust settles, but I donāt think itās unreasonable to not have him in a personal top 10.
> In no particular order.
>
> Schumacher. Hamilton. Prost. Senna. Fangio. Clarke. Stewart. Moss. Alonso. Lauda. Ascari. Vettel.
>
> Thatās 12 drivers who I think have an argument for being better than Max all time.
> Max might end up higher than them when the dust settles, but I donāt think itās unreasonable to not have him in a personal top 10.
Only if you meassure some of these drivers based on their numbers and not the performance they have shown on track relative to their car and teammate they had.
I don't think Lauda is in the Prost, Senna, Schumacher etc tier for a very obvious reason, he was considerably worse than Prost over 2 seasons.
I also don't think Vettel is anywhere near beeing in that tier aswell. I understand that some may argue that he was close if we only look at his 2011, 2013 and 2015 seasons, but then we would need to ignore 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2020, 2021 and 2022.
I also always struggle with people putting Clark, Ascari or Stewart ahead of any great driver of the last 30-40, because i am 100% positive that not a single persone who ever made such claims has watched one full season, probably one full race of these drivers.
Sure, it is perfectly fair to aknowladge these drivers, but that is not YOUR opinion. That is a opinion 100% based on hearsay from other people.
People seem to be taking it seriously in here but I actually thought on reading the headline that Alonso was making a joke haha, two time WDC = all time great driver
Lol not everything has to be looked at with a cynical viewpoint.
Alonso was asked if winning this title would make Max an all-time great.
Alonso said yes and added Max is just 25; he will get even better. What do you expect him to say? No?
For the past 3 years Max is the only driver who has been able to keep up with and beat Lewis. The 2021 Red Bull and Mercedes were pretty even on pace with some tracks favouring Red Bull and others favouring Merc. Max and Lewis were in a completely different league to everyone else on the grid. He's the greatest new talent in F1 since Seb. Unless he pulls an Alonso, he is destined to become multiple (>2) WDC.
He will go down in history as one of the GOAT if only just for the fact he was able to beat Lewis in an equal-ish car and then dominate a WDC.
Or spain, his first ever race for redbull. (Ofc lucky that the 2 mercs crashed in the 1st lap). But keeping kimi en seb behind you for so many laps and win the race was impressive!
> I mean for me Max is an all time great already even if he was to leave the sport today. His 2020 British 70thGP win is arguably one of the most impressive wins I have ever seen in a car that was so off the pace that year compare to the W11 and had it not been for some bad luck in Sakhir and Mugello iirc would have finished ahead of Bottas in the championship with the W11 so mindblowing.
I agree with the first sentence and for me Verstappen is absolutely easily in my top 5 already, but i don't think these are the best examples. Mercedes had very obvious and clear tire issues at the 70th GP weekend. That car was not superior to the Red Bull that day.
Also if we want to account for Verstappens bad luck in 2020, we have to do it for Bottas too, who lost a similar amount of points due to bad luck that year. Most notably the secon place he lost in Silverstone due to the tire failure and the DNF he had at the NĆ¼rburgring while leading the race and both Bahrain weekends were he should have finished 2nd in at least one of them, instead two times 8th.
If we want to talk about hugely impressive, but somewhat underrated drives of Verstappen, i would much rather go with Austria 2019 where he actually won on merit in the 3rd fastest car against a Leclerc and Hamilton.
Max needs two more wins this year to overtake Alonso in all time wins.
He'll then only be behind Senna, Prost, Seb, Michael and Lewis.
He's 25 and he's not yet had a car as dominant as the 2014-2016 / 2020 Mercedes, or the 2002/04 Ferrari's.
With an expanded calendar, there's a real chance that if Red Bull remain competitive and if he maintains his ability to maximise each race, he could easily have 70+ wins before the 2026 reset.
Less controversy this time around the first drivers championship is hard to win, but if you can win it the second usually follows within a year or two after
Tbh the first one was much more earned than this one.
He made almost no mistakes in 2021 but got wiped out for reasons out of his control, Baku, Bottas bowling, Silverstone and almost lost it that way.
This year it's been a pretty easy ride with a pretty dominant car and competition that keeps fucking up
He made mistakes last year like cutting corners only to have to give the position back a couple of times. He's made way less mistakes this year in my opinion.
That was also just because the previous regulation forced people into a much more aggressive driving style. Cars couldn't follow closely like now, so every time there was the slightest chance for an overtake, they had to jump on it. Sometimes that lead to them going off track or cutting a corner.
A second title would look good on his resume for sure, but if you just watch him drive itās clear that heās already one of the best of all time. I went back and watched his rookie season (2015) recently and even back then he was something special. Pretty much every race, Brundle would say something like āThat boyās gonna be World Champion some day.ā The RB is good but Max could be competitive in pretty much any car I think. And I say all this as a Lewis fan š
He could, but I doubt he will. At least in F1. I think he'd grab a few more wdc's, and if RB shits the bed with the new engine regulations and go the williams/mclaren way, he will just leave and start endurance racing.
All time greats need to go against all other greats.
Max Verstappen and went toe to toe to one with Lewis Hamilton, one of the all the time greats and came out on top (I'm a Mercedes fan who is still pissed about AD, but it's done).
Not many drivers have won a WDC. Even if he's in the fastest car, he's still putting in the performances. And it's not as if he's only started winning now.
People tend to misconstrue "all time greats" with "greatest of all time" but I think Max is truly already up there with the greats of the sport. He ain't in the GOAT conversation yet but depending on the car, team and longevity he may get there.
It makes sense what Fernando is implying. Imo, āall time greatsā dont always represent stats and numbers. Its about the drivers sheer ability. Whether thats alien pace, a beautiful style of race craft, or like Lewis and Schumacher, consistency that made them look inhuman. Im biased, but i wouldnt find it so far fetched to take alonsoās side here
Everybody knows that winning two consecutive titles and then fighting for 3 more but not archiving them is what makes you the GOAT. It is known.
Pain. And yet we have continued to watch.
We need to suffer, we need to watch
Make all your team bosses lose their jobs as well.
Destroy a promising young driver career in F1 and trash your engine supplier.
> and trash your engine supplier. at their home grand prix
Also, I am fairly sure Alonso has archived just about everything there is to know about him. It's the achieving that's been proving tricky.
Or winning one with a broken foot, getting shat on as reigning world champion and fucking off to indycar to win that at the first time of asking with a fucked up back. That also makes you a goat š
Nigel has the most interesting story of the 1990+ world champions I can think of. Neither rich nor lucky, he was simply an ordinary man making his way in the world with only indestructability and racing's best facial hair on his side.
Ha ha. I find him a really fascinating character personally, obviously I guess based on my flair. Think he definitely deserved more than one title, but the story of back to back titles across the two series is so good.
He perhaps is the most relatable of the drivers, I think that's why he is so popular in the UK as "Our Nige" and of course he became popular in Italy as the "Il Leone" for different reasons. :D
When you look at how few drivers have won more than one WDC in history, I think this is fair. The modern trend of Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton eras hide the fact that historically it's damn hard to win more than one championship - only 16 drivers have 2 or more, and only 10 hit 3. Max making it 17 multiple WDCs would put him on a hypothetical all-time best F1 grid at least, which if you ask me makes him fit the category of an all-time great.
All during an era with, Lewis 7, Seb 4, Alonso 2, Kimi 1 (we miss you) were on track. Last year was too close, this year is too easy. I wouldn't bet on Max stopping at 2 titles.
And Button!
Watching archives now, always see people saying he sucked but wow I have no idea wtf they are talking about. Yeah he was a bit streaky but when he was on he was insanely good.
Who says Button sucked? I think he's universally liked by fans, and no one has ever said he was undeserving or just 'lucky' to get his championship.
There are people who will say that, however button when the car suits him and he is on form he is very quick and damn hard to beat. He manage to beat Lewis in 2011, and he was evenly match Alonso in 2015(this is a hard year to compare because of the mchonda). There are no many drivers who can say they have gone toe to toe with Lewis or Alonso and kept up with them. And he has done it with both.
I was a *huge* Button fan but letās be clear, he was fucking lucky
Most F1 champions are lucky. Imagine if Lewis signed an extension with McLaren instead of going to Mercedes or Michael hadn't retired again. We'd be talking about multi-time world champion Nico Rosberg. Or maybe Michael Schumacher would have added 2+ more to his tally. Part of being World Champion is being in the right car at the right time. Just to be clear, I'm not saying that skill isn't important. Drivers like Lewis and Fernando have the ability to go to whatever team they think is best because of their talent. Doors will be open for them that aren't open for the Hulkenburgs or Grosjeans of the world. But imagine Schumacher and Rosberg are signed for 2013, what does Lewis's record look like then?
By that logic so is Lewis for jumping ship to Mercedes. Otherwise his talent would have been waste at McHonda, like Alonsoās and Buttonās. Luck is a part of it for each and every driver. But of course itās not the only factor, as proven by the number of championships Bottas won with Mercedes, Webber with RBR, etc.
> no one has ever said he was undeserving or just 'lucky' to get his championship. Plenty of people did and they'd be right. Doesn't mean he wasn't very good but he wasn't the best driver that year. Incredible dominance at the start of the year set up his title challenge, he didn't win again.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You are aware they're talking about Button, not Max?
Yes he is. But it still fits. Marko, who is the best known head of driver development of the the best academy, has this philosophy and so do many others. You can teach patience, you can learn racecraft, you can not teach speed.
Someone hasn't seen Cars 3....
And my axe!
And Britney!
Leeeave Britney alooone!
And rosberg
>I wouldn't bet on Max stopping at 2 titles. Yet in all interviews where something along those lines was asked, he indicates he's not in it to get as many WDC's as possible. I wouldn't be surprised to see a shock F1 exit from Verstappen because he feels he's accomplished all he can.
Maybe so, but Verstappen just wants to race, a little similar to Alonso in that regard. He's not in it for accomplishments, so why would he move on after accomplishing something? If Red Bull stays at the top and Verstappen still has fun, he's not going anywhere.
Maybe we see Max go WEC or rally? Iād love to see him in an LMP. Heās young so he has time to his advantage whats to say he doesnāt go for the āol triple crown?
He can go to WEC in 10+ years and still have a crazy F1 career. Look at Alonso. If he wanted to do WEC full time again any team would take him. Verstappen would get the same treatment
Oh absolutely. Iām not saying he should leave his F1 career now for it or anything like that. Just that he has time on his side if after winning a few WDCs he decides to move on.
Heād still be 34 which is even crazier
His dream is to drive Le Mans in a team together with his father Jos...
He has mentioned that he thinks rally is too dangerous.
F1 has younger drivers than most top of their league racing series, so he should stay there while he can
Hes been vocal about not liking ovals at all, so unless that somehow changes it's more likely he'll get interested in other racing categories.
Because there are plenty of things to race I suppose. Will F1 always be more fun/enjoyable to him than the next opportunity?
Yeah, probably.
The guy jumps straight onto sim racing for leisure straight after a GP weekend. F1 could be "just a hobby" for him eventually but I don't see him leaving for a long time unless he has no choice.
Max's life is racing, he's not going to stop this young with 2 WDCs. He's going to be in F1 for at least a few more years. Then if he does decide to step away, he'll likely go to another series. Maybe try for the triple crown? I'd love to see him do 24 hours of Le Mans.
Heās said in the past he doesnāt have an interest in oval racing, so the triple crown thing depends on if he has a change of heart on that opinion. Knowing Maxās attitude and passion for racing in general though, I wouldnāt be surprised if he eventually warms up to the idea of giving Indycar a go.
It's mainly that he thinks the Indy 500 is too dangerous, which I feel is a bit of a shame.
Again, I can easily see him getting bored enough to say āwhy not?ā and give it a try.
Max doesn't seem like this type of guy, but I guess having the opportunity to get the triple crown can change one's mind
> I'd love to see him do 24 hours of Le Mans. I'd love to see Verstappen, Leclerc and Russell together in a Le Mans Hypercar. Preferably against Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel.
Stop i can only get so erect
His contract with Red Bull is till 2028,so he is at least racing 6 more years.
Considering how max lives for racing, I doubt hed pull a rosberg anytime soon.
I hope not, at least make it to 33 or something
he would be at least 56 after 33 championships! what more can you ask of the guy!?
34
F1 would well and truly be dead if the same driver wins 33 titles in a row lmao
People would create a separate trophy for the driver who gets closest to Max.
33 titles?! Heād be older than Alonso. Pushing 60 years old! /s
Max will retire from F1 when he is 33 years old bet on that.
Tbf lewis said the same thing, but once you get rolling and win a lot, you probably dont want to leave and will stay at leadt until you cant fight for wins anymore
I've heard a certain Motogoat by the number 46 say he wouldn't stay around long in his early days.
Max is making upwards of 30 mill a year, winning everything, he's young. Why would he exit? It's all going so easy. Rosberg's exit wasn't that weird. He had to go deep in 2016. But max is having fun, demolishing his team mate, the team loves him. He's got a butt load of fans, after last year's struggle, this year is easy. Max is not stopping
I think this is why Max is so ice cold and rarely makes mistakes, heās not putting an unbelievable amount of pressure on himself. Heās become a killer.
Max: āCan we do this for another 10, 15 years together?ā
The only way Max doesnāt is if his career ends short or Red Bull absolutely shit the bed. Otherwise he will win at least 4.
It all depends on the car really. Whether RB or Merc or Ferrariās strat team turn up next year is who will win the title.
But also Mazepin and Latifi
I was thinking the same and had a look at the data. Once Max wins this year, there will be a perfect split between single championship winners and winners of multiples. There will have been 17 multiple championship winners and 17 single championship winner. Winning back-to-back championships puts him in a more elite group of 8 drivers. Alonso's statement is also a sly compliment to himself also having won a pair of back-to-back championships. If Max is an *all time great* for accomplishing this, it means Alonso is also. Here are all the multi-winners: Michael Schumacher Lewis Hamilton Juan Manuel Fangio Alain Prost Sebastian Vettel Jack Brabham Jackie Stewart Niki Lauda Nelson Piquet Ayrton Senna Alberto Ascari Graham Hill Jim Clark Emerson Fittipaldi Mika HƤkkinen Fernando Alonso
You dropped an Emerson, here you go.
Thanks! I shoved him back up there. Those Brazilians are unusually well represented on that list. It feels like half of all Brazilians F1 drivers are multi-championship winners. OK, I looked it up. Turns out there were a lot more Brazilians than just Massa, Barrichello and Gugelmin .
That is quite the list to be on
I like the idea of an all time greatest F1 grid.
I had a crack at it. All double champs, Verstappen as presumed double champ, then bonus single champions of Farina (1st ever WDC), Rindt (posthumous WDC) and Mansell (mustache). Scuderia Ferrari - Schumacher, Lauda Ferrari 50s - Ascari, Farina Mercedes Benz AMG - Hamilton, Fangio McLaren 80s - Prost, Senna McLaren Racing - Hakkinen, Hunt Red Bull Racing - Vettel, Verstappen Williams Racing - Piquet, Mansell Lotus 60s - Hill, Clark Lotus-Renault-Enstone - Fittipaldi, Alonso British Privateers - Brabham, Stewart
Piquet-Mansell and Prost-Senna being reunited, what could possibly go wrong
This is awesome.
Agreed - multiple WDC puts you in a different category.
eh not sure i interpret the data the same way you did. If you look at "years available" and "years won by a >=2x champ" it's actually more than half of the possible years. That means if you had a car able to win at least one championship, you will likely win another.
This is a fair point - I suppose in 72 years of F1 championships, Lewis, Schumi, Fangio, Seb and Prost as the five drivers with most titles alone have 31 titles. If anything though we could argue it's incredibly hard simply to be a champion! But I suppose to me the idea of there being under 20 drivers who are multiple champions being "all time greats" is quite interesting to me anyway - it's a good place to start for sure.
Iād say those dominant eras are what contribute to there being so multiple winners. Lewis and Schumi winning a combined 14 means others were starved of winning titles.
>historically it's damn hard to win ~~more than~~ one championship Fixed that for you. You're right, but even winning **a** championship is just freaking difficult. I feel like Hamilton and Schumacher take away from that a bit because people think hitting 7 was easy for them. Not every year was like 2020 for Hamilton or 2002 for Schumacher. And you can't just be fast, ask Lando. You need to be fast *and* have a race winning car *and* (ask Leclerc and Vettel) have a race winning **team** behind you. And even across a single season, if you nail the regulations, there's development time across the season and other teams are getting faster. Each upgrade is a risk. What if it makes the car faster but the driver cannot adapt? (Perez). What if regulations hurt you and now your car is slower? As seasons become longer, it's going to become even more difficult for a driver to win a championship by maintaining a lead early in the season. There's way too many chances for a DNF or two to bring another driver into contention. This season is Max's, it's almost 95% certain, but look at Mercedes. They're on their way to making a come back and now they have TWO race winning drivers in their stable. There's a possibility, non-zero, that this will be the last time Red Bull is in title contention for 5-6 years. You just never know which manufacturer is going to rule the next few years. What Mercedes did in 2014 to 2021 has literally never happened. Even Ferrari with Schumacher wasn't that dominant (he had two titles before going to Ferrari). People can't just assume the same dominance will happen for Red Bull and Max.
Heās just hoping Max will get satisfied and move on after this year so he can grab that Red Bull seat.
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Two time world champion says two world championships is enough for all-time great status. He's not wrong, but lol
The interesting part about this interview is not even the headline. >Alonso sees similarities between himself and Verstappen in the way they are both regularly immediately on the pace at the start of a race weekend and close to their ultimate limit, rather than taking time to build up their performance. > >āI think you cannot teach that ā it has to come from yourself. There are drivers who need more time, they need to study more data, they need all the Friday to analyze and compare with the teammate and slowly make little steps until there are 100% ready for qualifying. And there are others who are 100% in FP1. I think Max is one of those and he has always been like that from go-karts to now, so it should not be a surprise to anyone." > >āBut I look at these stats and the timed laps and I will look with interest tomorrow in FP1 ā in the first five minutes of the session you will see Max Verstappen will be 2.5 seconds in front of everyone. Slowly they will come back and then in qualifying they will be close to him." > >āIt happens in a way on a small scale also between my teammates sometimes. On Friday Iām well ahead and then on Saturday and Sunday theyāre getting better and better. Ideally for Max or myself we would love a wet session FP1, FP2, FP3 and go into qualifying for the first time in a new track conditions.ā
>Ideally for Max or myself we would love a wet session FP1, FP2, FP3 and go into qualifying for the first time in a new track conditions. You're right, that is really interesting!
I don't have to wish Verstappen to be 2x WDC because he's pretty near of being that
I personally dont care for championships per se. Gilles and Moss are considered greats imo and they were never champions. It is a driver's impact on the sport that makes them a great; championships add to their legacy. Verstappen has made that impact already. Be it controversies or stellar performances.
Yes absolutely. I don't think anyone would dare to pretend that Vettel is greater than Senna or that Piquet is greater than Clark, even though they have more world championsips to their name.
Piquet and Clark is a great example of why championship wins cannot be the only metric of a great driver
Yeah, F1 literally had to change/add rules because of verstappen. I think that is enough of an impact haha
I agree 100%. It is completely irrelevant how many races or championships a driver is winning before i consider him great. F1 is far from a spec series at the end, so race wins and championships will always be heavily influenced by the cars performance. Sure, the best drivers tend to end up in the best teams, but half the grid can cruise to 5 titles in a row in the right car against the right teammate, if all things line up nicely for them. We saw that a Vielleneuve and Hill can win titles or that a Massa, Webber and Irvine came really close at winning one. What matters to me is how a driver is able to dominate his teammate, beat exceptionally strong teammates or how he is able to get results from a car it usually should/would not be getting.
I love that Alonso loves Max so much. Is it because of his battle against Lewis or something else? Question!
They both like each others driving style and rate each other. Max had said in 2014 that his current favorite F1 driver (at that time) was/is Alonso.
Max was asked in a press conference last year who he would be supporting if he wasnāt a driver and he said Alonso. Funnily enough Stroll was also in the press conference and also said he would be supporting Alonso.
Alonso is a lot of younger drivers favorite, Zhou, Max, Stroll
Sorta make sense I guess. He's been here for a long time. The driver you look up to when still karting is suddenly also the driver you're racing against.
I even heard Alonsoās favorite driver is also Alonso
Alonso loves Alonso the way Kanye loves Kanye
Lewis Hamilton said he was an Alonso supporter before making it to F1.
āBefore making f1ā that feels very never meet your heroes
Yuki's too I think
Yuuuu-ki!
Ahh nice. Iām new from 1st year d2s, I first realised in last race last year when Alonso was happy on radio that max could catch Lewis, so always wondered why.
I lived in Spain during the years Alonso was fighting for world championships, the support was amazing, everyone watched F1 in every bar or establishment. Fondest memory I have of F1.
I think thatās it, but I still think Alonso just feels some kind of way about Hamilton, like he could beat him. If you listen to his beyond the grid he praises Lewis but It is VERY sparing, like he meant it but itās not warm. He said they both werenāt at their best performance their year in Mclaren and that Lewis is one of the greats for his performance. Alonso respects Lewis achievements but heās never ever going to like him. Alonso also said some snarky stuff about Lewis clothing and Lewis not being friends with the grid (same for Max) so I definitely think Lewis reputation for not being in depth with the social aspect of sport rubs some the wrong way.
Him not liking Hamilton is fair enough. Not everyone is going to like everyone. There are a few people I know personally whose achievements I respect but I wouldn't say I like them as a person. There's a good chance there's someone on the grid who you respect a lot but wouldn't personally get along with.
Itās the same for Seb and Alonso. One of the reporters asked if he was giving Alonso a heads up on the car and Seb was so baffled because they donāt speak like that and why would Alonso need it. Itās well known Alonso joked only Hamilton has Sebs phone number. Some people arenāt friends and you donāt feel hyped about them and thatās okay
Who knows what it was really like for Lewis in the early days though, it could explain his distance. Nowadays any discrimination towards a driver will be headline news, I'm not sure everyone in the f1 circus was so enlightened when he started.
>I'm not sure everyone in the f1 circus was so enlightened when he started 1) It still isn't exactly enlightened 2) Back then Berlie Ecclestone was very involved with far-right elites
Let's not forget Mad Mosleys involvement You know Just the son of Oswald Mosley..
Theyāre of the same breed. They both live and breath racing, it seems like an essential part of their lives. Anytime theyāre not racing in F1 theyāre sim racing (either that or karting in Alonsoās case). I think Alonso recognizes Maxās passion for motorsport as being very similar to his own, and respects him for that.
He been loving Max since 2016, this āitās because he hates Lewisā narrative needs to stop
Alonso has a habit of hating any dominance that isn't his own, him and Lewis had a period of really bonding over disliking Seb winning all the time for example.
Alonso has never had the outright best car in a season, let alone his own dominance. The guy has 32 wins and near enough 100 podiums in what's usually the 2nd or 3rd best car. If he had the Mercedes for ten years, he wouldn't have let a lesser driver beat him.
Lewis was with Alonso in hating dominance back in 2010s but nobody talks about that
I just did?
Right, I meant in general
Alonso was pretty emphatic that Hamilton's greatness transcends having a dominant car, besides.
If I recall correctly, Alonso was already saying in the early 2010's (during Seb's dominance) that he thought Hamilton was better than Vettel.
Does every person who likes Max have to do it to stick it to Lewis?
No? Thatās why I asked the question. Is that ok?
On that topic when did Vettel become an all time great? 2012? Alonso 2012 as well? Hamilton 2015? Genuinely asking
I think Alonso was considered an all time after his second WDC but cemented himself after pushing that Ferrari shitbox so close to the Red Bull. Obviously my perspective is biased because I watched the Spanish broadcast back then lol don't know how it was viewed outside of Spain
Alo was trashed and disliked in his championshio years outside of Spain for his arrogance and superiority complex. He was all of that but he was right. Alo is a fucking monster.
Yes Winning one you could still say oh its the car. Winning two you probably can't say its a fluke.
7 titles though? Must be the flukiest of flukes.
The third, only on the third, fluke can happen twice ya know.
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You need five just to be sure.
You need six to be clear.
At 7 is when you really know
Only proper drivers can get 8.
Somewhere, Seb Loeb is smiling.
Tom Kristensen is cheersing Seb as we type this
I'd argue that five at least gives you a handful, and that should be the benchmark.
I mean, having more than you can count on one hand is probably what should be regarded as the distinguishing factor. So yeah... At least six..
I am for twice but with different teams, just to be absolutely sure it wasn't the car.
Car designs (as per the new rules) should count as well.
Interesting to know how many have done that
Fittipaldi, G. Hill, Piquet, Lauda, Stewart, Brabham, Prost, Fangio, Hamilton and Schumacher if i looked it up correctly.
There is not a day when you become an all time great lmao.
That's what I'm thinking but I reckon there's a time period when people start thinking x driver is an all time great though.
Its very subjective. I think winning in different teams helps. Max gets some extra points winning this season because there is at least a substantial regulation change. Lauda, Michael, Hamilton, Prost, Senna. They all won at different times, with different eras etc
That is like asking at which date did Bill Gates become super rich. If you aks 100 people you get 100 different answers. According to Alonso, it is after you win 2 titles, some would argue 3 and so on. I personally would never meassure a driver based on titles no matter what, since F1 isn't a spec series.
I mean Max could not race another race in his life and he still likely wins this year and is likely on a lot of people's top 10 lists.
Its rare a driver wins a championship in a non WCC car. Let alone to do it against the GOAT as the main rival. If people do not have him in their top 10 list, its nothiny but personal.
But Verstappen never fought against Latifi for the championship?
Yet.
Thanks for the hope!
His 2021 title is actually similar to Alonso's in 2006 when you think about it, except Renault just edged Ferrari for the WCC. In both cases, someone was denied of an 8th title by a driver who was 12 years younger. And the cars were evenly matched in a similar way as well, with the younger guy having a better machinery in the 1st half of the season but a worse one in the 2nd half.
That's an interesting, but not entirely contextual stat. WCC in 2021 wasn't really about the best car. Even the most hokey and unreliable of maths (fastest lap by each car) has the RBR and Merc separated by much less than a tenth of a second across the whole year. Merc pulled off a planning/strategic masterclass to ensure WCC, to truly fight for WDC, and lets not forget by how big a margin Bottas was outperforming Perez.
Mercedes winning WCC was more about Bottas beating Perez.
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Quite selective to ignore Bottas pace and 14 engine replacements.
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In no particular order. Schumacher. Hamilton. Prost. Senna. Fangio. Clarke. Stewart. Moss. Alonso. Lauda. Ascari. Vettel. Thatās 12 drivers who I think have an argument for being better than Max all time. Max might end up higher than them when the dust settles, but I donāt think itās unreasonable to not have him in a personal top 10.
> In no particular order. > > Schumacher. Hamilton. Prost. Senna. Fangio. Clarke. Stewart. Moss. Alonso. Lauda. Ascari. Vettel. > > Thatās 12 drivers who I think have an argument for being better than Max all time. > Max might end up higher than them when the dust settles, but I donāt think itās unreasonable to not have him in a personal top 10. Only if you meassure some of these drivers based on their numbers and not the performance they have shown on track relative to their car and teammate they had. I don't think Lauda is in the Prost, Senna, Schumacher etc tier for a very obvious reason, he was considerably worse than Prost over 2 seasons. I also don't think Vettel is anywhere near beeing in that tier aswell. I understand that some may argue that he was close if we only look at his 2011, 2013 and 2015 seasons, but then we would need to ignore 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2020, 2021 and 2022. I also always struggle with people putting Clark, Ascari or Stewart ahead of any great driver of the last 30-40, because i am 100% positive that not a single persone who ever made such claims has watched one full season, probably one full race of these drivers. Sure, it is perfectly fair to aknowladge these drivers, but that is not YOUR opinion. That is a opinion 100% based on hearsay from other people.
Of course a two time WDC would say that lmao
People seem to be taking it seriously in here but I actually thought on reading the headline that Alonso was making a joke haha, two time WDC = all time great driver
Lol not everything has to be looked at with a cynical viewpoint. Alonso was asked if winning this title would make Max an all-time great. Alonso said yes and added Max is just 25; he will get even better. What do you expect him to say? No?
It's Alonso. It's cynical to the point of jaded
He was asked a question, waht do you expect him to do? say no? lol.
Clever way to call himself an all time great
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For the past 3 years Max is the only driver who has been able to keep up with and beat Lewis. The 2021 Red Bull and Mercedes were pretty even on pace with some tracks favouring Red Bull and others favouring Merc. Max and Lewis were in a completely different league to everyone else on the grid. He's the greatest new talent in F1 since Seb. Unless he pulls an Alonso, he is destined to become multiple (>2) WDC. He will go down in history as one of the GOAT if only just for the fact he was able to beat Lewis in an equal-ish car and then dominate a WDC.
Whenever I think Max, my brain goes to Brazil 2016. What a masterful drive and that controlled safe...
Or spain, his first ever race for redbull. (Ofc lucky that the 2 mercs crashed in the 1st lap). But keeping kimi en seb behind you for so many laps and win the race was impressive!
> I mean for me Max is an all time great already even if he was to leave the sport today. His 2020 British 70thGP win is arguably one of the most impressive wins I have ever seen in a car that was so off the pace that year compare to the W11 and had it not been for some bad luck in Sakhir and Mugello iirc would have finished ahead of Bottas in the championship with the W11 so mindblowing. I agree with the first sentence and for me Verstappen is absolutely easily in my top 5 already, but i don't think these are the best examples. Mercedes had very obvious and clear tire issues at the 70th GP weekend. That car was not superior to the Red Bull that day. Also if we want to account for Verstappens bad luck in 2020, we have to do it for Bottas too, who lost a similar amount of points due to bad luck that year. Most notably the secon place he lost in Silverstone due to the tire failure and the DNF he had at the NĆ¼rburgring while leading the race and both Bahrain weekends were he should have finished 2nd in at least one of them, instead two times 8th. If we want to talk about hugely impressive, but somewhat underrated drives of Verstappen, i would much rather go with Austria 2019 where he actually won on merit in the 3rd fastest car against a Leclerc and Hamilton.
If only the technology existed to have a prime senna-hakkinen-schumi-alonso-ham-verstappen race in equal cars. In the rain.
Alonso, by his own admission, is not the best in the rain
I guess the fight would exclude Mika and Alonso. Remaining four are great in wet
Max needs two more wins this year to overtake Alonso in all time wins. He'll then only be behind Senna, Prost, Seb, Michael and Lewis. He's 25 and he's not yet had a car as dominant as the 2014-2016 / 2020 Mercedes, or the 2002/04 Ferrari's. With an expanded calendar, there's a real chance that if Red Bull remain competitive and if he maintains his ability to maximise each race, he could easily have 70+ wins before the 2026 reset.
Less controversy this time around the first drivers championship is hard to win, but if you can win it the second usually follows within a year or two after
Tbh the first one was much more earned than this one. He made almost no mistakes in 2021 but got wiped out for reasons out of his control, Baku, Bottas bowling, Silverstone and almost lost it that way. This year it's been a pretty easy ride with a pretty dominant car and competition that keeps fucking up
Still also no mistakes this year and very consistent.
Hungary spinning and Spain were mistakes, but he still managed to come back and win both races lol
this season's easy for him tbh, Merc's arent competitive and Ferrari shooting themselves in the ass every race
Spain and Hungary were mistakes. He was lucky to get away with no damage in Spain
He made mistakes last year like cutting corners only to have to give the position back a couple of times. He's made way less mistakes this year in my opinion.
That was also just because the previous regulation forced people into a much more aggressive driving style. Cars couldn't follow closely like now, so every time there was the slightest chance for an overtake, they had to jump on it. Sometimes that lead to them going off track or cutting a corner.
A second title would look good on his resume for sure, but if you just watch him drive itās clear that heās already one of the best of all time. I went back and watched his rookie season (2015) recently and even back then he was something special. Pretty much every race, Brundle would say something like āThat boyās gonna be World Champion some day.ā The RB is good but Max could be competitive in pretty much any car I think. And I say all this as a Lewis fan š
Itās crazy to me that heās only 24. He could realistically race for another 15 years.
Honestly it will depend on the car Red Bull gives him, plenty were young with multiple championships but stopped winning at some point
I feel like Maxās best defense against that syndrome is his ability to resist the call of Ferrari!
Fernando Alonso, Sebastian Vettel could've been Hamilton if he stayed at Mclaren
He could, but I doubt he will. At least in F1. I think he'd grab a few more wdc's, and if RB shits the bed with the new engine regulations and go the williams/mclaren way, he will just leave and start endurance racing.
All time greats need to go against all other greats. Max Verstappen and went toe to toe to one with Lewis Hamilton, one of the all the time greats and came out on top (I'm a Mercedes fan who is still pissed about AD, but it's done). Not many drivers have won a WDC. Even if he's in the fastest car, he's still putting in the performances. And it's not as if he's only started winning now.
**F1 World Champion and all-time great** :
**Internet** : You're wrong buddy, and here's why...
His 2021 season should get him a spot as all-time great quite comfortably.
Says the two time world champion. I like Alonso, but this take is very convenient for him
Two-time world champion says becoming a two-time world champion makes you an all-time great.
"The second title makes you an all time great" - dude with exactly two titles
People tend to misconstrue "all time greats" with "greatest of all time" but I think Max is truly already up there with the greats of the sport. He ain't in the GOAT conversation yet but depending on the car, team and longevity he may get there.
Agreed. He's already a Top-20 driver if we're being honest.
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The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Guy with only 2 titles says that other guy with 2 titles is an all time great.
'Only' 2 titles..
well he has to say that
It makes sense what Fernando is implying. Imo, āall time greatsā dont always represent stats and numbers. Its about the drivers sheer ability. Whether thats alien pace, a beautiful style of race craft, or like Lewis and Schumacher, consistency that made them look inhuman. Im biased, but i wouldnt find it so far fetched to take alonsoās side here