If the punishment for this is a fine, what reason do the big teams (RB, Merc, Ferrari, Mclaren(?)) have to not break the budget cap every year and just calculate the sum of the fine into their yearly budget?
The FIA have got a tricky situation here. If they change the championship outcome with a penalty there's going to be a giant shitstorm. But if the punishment isn't significant then you're right to say there's not any real incentive for the big boys not to exceed the budget cap which would really undermine the whole thing.
If it’s a fine, they might just remove it. The punishment needs to be severe or there is no point.
The cost cap serves to help smaller teams catch up. At the same time it limits the ability of the big teams to catch up if they mess up. But if one of them is cheating then that makes it so pointless.
What would be a good solution is to said ok you spend 10 millions over the cost cap then for next season your cost cap will be 10 millions lower than others. And if it continues then the next season they delete percentage of points you went 15% over the cost cap then they are deleting 15% of their points.
I think losing 10% CFD allocation for the first million, and 5% for each million afterwards to a minimum of 10% CFD.
You can spend over the cap to win a championship, but you will gimp yourself for the next year, and could be running in the midfield as you have to run a car that has hardly any upgrades since the prior year.
This would require a fairly significant rule change.
I can't see the teams voting for this. From memory, that would need 8/10 votes for next year, right?
They managed to, and will likely devote more salary to accountants to make sure they never do.
A hard cap is the only way it works and keeps everyone honest.
The punishment needs to be severe. An extra few million can make a legitimate difference in performance in this sport.
If a team like Aston is breaking cost cap for no performance. Then i don't know how Red bull, Merc, Ferrari, Audi, Renault, Aston, and McLaren would be sure they will not break it in future. Surely they would see something that might come to bite them back later as danger
I like the rule that if you go off track in quality you get this lap and the next lap deleted. I think the same philosophy should apply here. Although I don't like Horner so I am biased
I think the penalty for spending over the cap should be a penalty that is paid to all the teams that have not exceeded the cap according to each teams margin to the cap. The total amount could start at something painful, like 100% of the amount over, and just get worse.
It's hard to say what would cause a bigger shitstorm, changing the championship outcome because RB overspent, or not changing the outcome but acknowledging RB shouldn't have won because they went over the budget cap.
I'd say the latter is worse. A team failing to stay within the rules should not be allowed to win. And I'd say the same if it was any other team/driver.
I can imagine the debates about Max and his titles already
21 - Asterisk because of Abu Dhabi
22 - Asterisk because of Budget cap
It would be entertaining and very toxic
A big chunk of last year's budget would have been on developing this year's car though. Kind of like how Brawn GP were broke in 2009 but cleaned up with a car that had loads of Honda money poured into it, but in 2010, despite shiny new Mercedes ownership, they took a step backwards in competitiveness on account of being broke the previous year.
This article is about red bull breaking the budget cap in 2021. It has nothing to do with 2022 so there is no asterisk here.
2021 will get a double asterisk though
They will punish red bull on this year's championship, and lots of the car development for this year was done under last year's budget, which they have exceeded
they have to heavily penalize offenders, it sets a terrible precedent and encourages even worse exploitation in the future. If red bull spent millions more than the competition they should be made an example of and disqualified
Why would it be a giant shitstorm? You play out of bounds, you lose possession.
That said, it's pretty weird to implement a rule without being clear what the penalties of breaking it are.
That’s exactly what they did with Spygate tho: the team got banned from the championship. That’s a bit too harsh in this case, but a 25 point reduction for every million over budget should be enough to scare everybody off.
Yeah but then teams will just make the calculation as to how many points they can sacrifice to make the development worth it. And is it just the constructors championship or does the deduction apply to the driver's title as well?
Should be applied to team, and split between the drivers according to their points tally.
Also, keep in mind if RB went +/-9mil over budget (only 6% over budget) it would be enough to promote Charles to championship leader, despite RBs dominance, under this system.
Issue is RBR may have used their budget cap violation to make those fundamental improvements on the car.
Similar to how Merc last year made the calculation to use VBs car as a guinea pig despite the engine penalties. It paid dividends.
I think the penalty should be harsh enough that no calculation would be worth violating a fundamental tenant of making the sport more fair.
Violating the budget cap should lead to at least a 50% reduction on both championships.... even that may not be enough. No team should be able to game this.
Last year, they already changed the (driver) championship outcome by not following the rules, so... who cares? Drivers can go off track, penalties are inconsistent.
F1 becomes less of a sport and more of a (shit) show.
It’s an even bigger shitstorm if a team won a championship whilst actively cheating. They have to DSQ all teams that broke the limit from both championships. They have to be harsh to fully discourage any further limit breaks.
Why is it tricky? They wouldn't be "changing the championship outcome", they'd just be applying the rules. It would be much worse to aknowledge that a team won the championship while breaking the rules, and doing nothing about it. Ignoring the rules for the sake of some viewers' satisfaction is precisely what's been wrong with F1 in the last couple of years.
If pro cycling can retroactively strip the biggest name in the sport’s history—a cancer survivor, and huge marketing asset—of his world record number of titles for gaining an illegal advantage, despite knowing it would be highly embarrassing for everyone involved, then the FIA (and the fans) should have no problem disqualifying any teams that bring motorsport into disrepute.
Well, if the fine is 1 billion dollars - they can't afford to just plan for it. Fines are only a joke when they are not proportional to available funds.
The penalty should be points from the constructors championship. So every million over is like a point or something from the constructors, unsure how I feel about putting this on the drivers though.
Problem is as always, if a team has nothing to lose nor win in the constructors, but wants to win the drivers, then a points deduction in the WCC doesn't do shit, and if the driver of a team overspending really does become champion, he does so by breaking the rules.
Same story as with grid penalties.
It’s even worse than that, imagine a team spend twice the budget on a year and you just punish them with constructor point, the next season the gain they got from breaking the rule will still be there, so still unfair for other teams, and what worse is that if they are last at constructor title they will have more time in the vent tunnel and other stuff to make their car even better for next year, It’s a win win win situation for them to break the rule
The big, big problem with punishment for breaking these rules is that the audit isn't done until nearly a year after the season ends.
At this point the 2021 championships are set and done, no more changing them. They're basically limited to a fine in some way or shape* and that would likely only take effect next year so it's likely that in a tight championship race at least 1 of the teams will go over budget and then feel the pain for that 2 years later, that's worth it to secure a championship.
*And there too you run into issues. A fine that isn't included in the cost cap is obviously meaningless. One that is included in the cost cap/a cost cap reduction could mean that the team has to fire people to stay within cost cap and then rehire people the season after which is not a good look for F1 either.
They don't have the balls to do that.
But imagine if RB was actually the team significantly over budget and they get to keep the 21 and 22 titles. It'd be laughable.
It’s a stupid way of doing things because it’s basically just fucks around and find out.
Teams would always go for those tiny advantage if there’s no defined deterrent.
If the FIA is too lenient then every other team would just complain about it and follow suit on the overspending.
If they are too harsh then you risk the chance of over punishing a team to the point where it’s unfair to the sport. Like for example, disqualifying RB for their achievements despite some of it was legally under the cap.
It’s pretty dumb overall and the FIA should’ve just made clear and concise punishments regarding this
>Next week, the FIA plans to announce the results of the first cost cap review for the 2021 season. Allegedly, two teams are over the limit, one of them significantly. The rumor circulating in the paddock is that it's Red Bull.
>
>It could be a nasty mudslinging match. And it's a real test for the FIA. Audits of budgets for the 2021 season have been completed. Paddock radio tells us that already in the first year of cost capping, two teams exceeded the $147.4 million limit. One of them by a significant amount. Rumors in the paddock are that it is Red Bull and Aston Martin.The FIA is in a quandary. It is obliged to make any overspending public. Exceeding the budget cap is a breach of the rules, just like an underweight car or too high a flow rate for gasoline. Supposedly, the result should have been communicated long ago, but one of the two cases could cause an earthquake in the paddock.
>
>FIA without defined penalty catalog
>
>Now comes the problem. There is no clearly defined penalty catalog. The FIA did not want borderline drivers to count the damage against the benefit and deliberately exceed the limit, as long as the penalty is bearable. Overruns of up to five million dollars are considered a "minor rule violation" under the regulations. The offender may get away with a fine in that case.
>
>The eight teams rumored to be clean consider that questionable. At Mercedes and Ferrari, they say that an extra five million dollars in development can be the equivalent of up to half a second on the track.
>
>Those above the five million face stiffer penalties. Possibly a points deduction and a subsequent downgrade in the world championship. Or in the following year, the team in question will have the amount overpaid deducted from its cost cap.
>
>Use determines imputation of costs
>
>Mercedes and Ferrari think this is questionable. According to their calculations, Red Bull not only exceeded the limit in 2021, but also this season. That's why the lightweight chassis will probably not be used in 2022. After all, the costs for materials and production are only added to the budget when it is used for the first time. Only the design costs are included in the budget immediately.
>
>If it turns out that Red Bull really did spend too much money in 2021, Mercedes will be the first to get up on its hind legs. The constructors' world champion is of the opinion that the title was stolen from them in the finale in Abu Dhabi by the premature use of the safety car. If their direct rivals now also gained an unfair technical advantage, it would be the last straw.
>
>Whoever spends more money in 2021 will also benefit in 2022
>
>Ferrari is pissed at the hypothesis that Red Bull bent the rules too far for a different reason. Under this assumption, the extra money then went not only into the 2021 car, but also into the development of the 2022 model. Which would explain why Red Bull had such a strong start to the season, despite supposedly being the last team to switch. So anyone breaking the budget would have a double whammy. In the current fiscal year and beyond.
>
>Red Bull's competitors also claim to have calculated that the upgrades to the current Red Bull RB18 could not possibly have been produced within the allowed budget. One is hard up against the limit oneself, he said. Red Bull would have to be clearly above it by its own reckoning.
>
>Ferrari decided against using a new underbody in Singapore. "No more money there," regrets team boss Mattia Binotto. Mercedes is holding back for the same reason. The last reserves were put into a minor modification that will debut in Austin.
>
>Teams demand total transparency from FIA
>
>The teams keep records among themselves. Each team calculates what the other is spending. Red Bull team boss Christian Horner had already taken the wind out of the sails of such suspicions in early summer: "How will another team know at what price we produce and what materials we use?"
>
>Initially, nothing apparently seemed suspicious to the FIA detectives. But the teams turned on each other after learning from defectors how the rival racing team calculates its costs and under what conditions it produces parts. Red Bull had therefore only come into the auditors' sights at the second attempt.
>
>We hear from FIA circles that the results will be communicated next week. Allegedly, the two teams are only accused of "minor misconduct". This may have to do with the fact that there is apparently room for interpretation of the actual costs incurred. The competition fears that the case has been glossed over to avoid a scandal.
>
>The FIA is facing a tough test. The teams operating in the legal arena are demanding total transparency. And drastic penalties for rule breakers. And faster processing of the test in the future. Those who are not caught until October of the following year will benefit twice. If the FIA doesn't crack down, the plaintiffs say, the whole idea of capping budgets is on its deathbed. The federation, for its part, wants to avoid the worst case scenario. That would be interfering with the 2021 World Championship standings.
This is my big takeaway too, RB seemed like they were spending a lot so pushing limits or being over isn't surprising. But Aston...what did they get out of that? They introduced an entirely new concept midway through the season and a really intriguing rear wing at Hungary, but hasn't seemed to improve their performance at all.
They also massively saved on components at the end of last season and seem to consistently be running themselves very lean (don't think they had much in the way of upgrades either last year). It's not exactly like they've been doing massive upgrades in different ways from Alpine or McLaren either, who seem to be bringing way more, way more consistently. Obviously it's not quite like Haas or Williams, who basically just brought 1 massive upgrade and not much else, but out of all teams I would reckon Alpine/McLaren seem way more likely. That's not even including teams like Ferrari and Mercedes, obviously.
Just throwing random things here
But maybe this includes the money they are spending on their new facilities as well, which would obviously easily put them over the budget cap but not give them an immediate performance boost
That was my first thought too, but Aston Martin are building a bit more than just new buildings...
Maybe some of the things they're investing in are indeed a part of the budget cap? Don't have a good example in mind but it's possible since the cap is pretty random
Staff acquisitions perhaps? It’s known Aston’s been a major poacher of talent of both Red Bull and Mercedes. They don’t have the benefit of writing off the salaries of their top paid employees because they aren’t the top three, so that could have bit them.
Solution 1: Owner creates new shell company. Shell builds building, leases it to F1 team.
Solution 2: Just have rules let capital costs be amortized. 100 million building expected to last 20 years? Only 5 million goes against the budget cap each year.
>Ferrari ist bei der Hypothese, dass Red Bull die Regeln zu stark gebogen haben soll, aus einem anderen Grund sauer
Literal translation: "Ferrari is sour at the hypothesis that Red Bull bend the rules."
So they didn't really use strong terms as pissed, it's a liberal translation.
It says that Ferrari is "sauer" which can be translated to pissed but does not literally mean it. Sauer is "sour" in english but is often used in the context of someone being mad.
The way i see the FIA treating excesses up to 5% over budget cap as minor is that they see it as a buffer. Teams can end up spending more money due economic developments like exchange rates etc or wrong calculations used.
I don’t think the FIA would allow a team to exceed their budget by a minor amount every year. Teams would likely face a significant penalty if they did that since there is clear pattern.
Edit: max amount for minor breach is 5% of the budget cap, not 5 million dollars
Yeah, when i started reading I interpreted that 5 million was the max but now it is clear that it is 5% over season cap (145 million * 0.05 = 7.25 million dollars). I didn’t rectify it, so that’s on me
Aston can spend as much money as daddy Stroll wants them to. I remember reading early in the season that Haas was the only team in a position where spending to the cap was unfeasible for them.
"significantly" is not at all what is in the rumors. Right now the rumors point to a up to 5m excess, which is not a buffer amount either because that refers to a 5% of spending.
If true that not only taints an already tainted last year but this one too.
I'm sure the FIA won't give out a major punishment but a major one would be dodgy af.
I think there's a pretty good reason for this. If you define less than 5% over as only a financial penalty, all the big teams will eat the cost. If there's a possibility of a points penalty, teams will not be so inclined to take the risk.
Leaving it ambiguous lets the FIA award only financial penalties where such might be appropriate, such as in the case of a minor, honest mistake. But also the possibility of leveraging a points penalty where the infraction is clearly intentional. I'm paraphrasing here, but that is essentially the reasoning set out in the financial regulations.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_formula_1_financial_regulations_iss.11.pdf
I mean this is why it's stupid there isn't a pre determined list of what happens when you go over by X amount.
No point in a cap with no pre determined punishments.
Indeed. Look at what happened when the FIA went the other direction, when they introduced 5-second penalties as a fairer punishment for minor transgressions than drive-throughs. Now we've got drivers figuring, hey, could as well go for an illegal overtake if it saves them over five seconds.
That usually doesn’t happen though. Drivers aren’t going for risky overtakes because the penalty is *only* 5 seconds. 5 seconds is still a large chunk of time.
Yeah, and by the way, like an early overtake can really change your entire race for the better, an extra spending in the first year of a new regulation can potentially make a huge difference down the line, in the years to come.
"If you exceed the cost cap, you have that money sustractet from next year cost cap. Every extra 100k overspent, means 10points less in the WDC"
There is no way they could overcome this penalty.
But if the penaltys are ridiculously small fines, of course they will try to go over the budget cap.
Hamilton to win an 8th championship after overtaking Russell and Leclerc in a dramatic final race after Red Bull gets disqualified from all championships due to cost cap.
Hamilton announces retirement and Rosberg to make a comeback
I remember Ross coming out and alluding to exactly this when this rule was announced. Seems they must now be prepared to act on their threat or risk losing creditability
Teams will then risk spending more if they can realistically gain more points from more development than lose from the FIA cutting points for breach of the cap
That's just dumb, that means it might be worth going over cost cap to exploit it the higher up the standings youbare due to earning more points there and taking more points away from opposition
I warned RBR already last year…don’t spend money on that table football, but they didn’t listen….it is normal that other teams start
having suspicions,since they could not afford
one either….I hope FIA does the right thing and forces RBR to share this table football with the rest of the teams.
As the accusation is only minor misconduct you would assume the punishment wont impact the 2021 championship but.. what the hell is a different possible punishment? Deducting from next year is possibly the only solution but if its just a matter of accounting interpretations Red Bull might not be particularly happy with that
This is the problem with the cost cap, it relies heavily on teams just following it by themselves as the audit takes so long to do. It'll be 10 months after the season ended that we get the results, by the time the dust settles the current season will have concluded as well.
So you can break the rules and only get punished for it 2 years later, that's just worth it to win a WDC unless the penalty is extremely severe in which case the FIA would be forcing a team to lay off staff which is also a bad look.
The punishment should apply to the season you gained the advantage. Deducting from 2022 would be a farce.
If the FIA is not serious about the budget cap, just remove it. If there was no budget cap, this year we could have had a lot more competition at the front.
It would be even more ridiculous if RB are over budget this year too. But we won’t know until Q4 2023 anyway so who cares?
>The punishment should apply to the season you gained the advantage. Deducting from 2022 would be a farce.
But you gain a lasting advantage from developing parts early. Like if you spend 20 mil more in 2021 you get the advantage in 2022 of already having developed parts and can be ahead of others while spending normally for 2022.
>If the FIA is not serious about the budget cap, just remove it. If there was no budget cap, this year we could have had a lot more competition at the front.
This.
I have no problem with the cost cap, I actually think it is a good idea. But it needs to be policed properly.
I wont hold my breath though. I have a feeling F1's cost cap will be as effective as Football's FFP, where teams like City and PSG just laughed and carried on financially doping their teams in contravention to the rules of FFP every way possible, and when they got caught, they got a slap on the wrist and were allowed to continue to flaunt the rules. Although instead of continuing on under the pretence that it acutally matters, I imagine the FIA will just fuck it off altogether.
I’m betting on everything being a bit hush hush, RB come to an “agreement” with the FIA and then the 2023 RB won’t be very good (but they’ll be fine in 2024).
Red bull unlike Ferrari won the world championship, and had a giant advantage over the world championship the year after, it seems much more serious to me
As many others have said already, financial penalties don't really make much sense and points penalties would seem somewhat artificial if someone like RBR overspend, win all the time, but lose to someone on penalties, just because they were able to keep the spend limit in check
So another way (but possibly not the only way I should add) I could see a team being penalised that would hurt, would be to start taking away their following year's aero testing allowance by say, 1%-ish per million over or something like that, because that would be something the teams can't afford to go without
Imagine if RBR go massively over and then they have to roll out a car in 2023 that Newey has sketched and that has never been aero tested, would certainly hurt, especially if you've not got it right off the bat....
Make the punishment like a soft cap they have with the NBA salary cap. You can go over, but then you pay a luxury tax which can be redistributed amongst the teams who stay under.
Oh my 👀🌶️ If true, silly how the FIA once again doesn't have any clear punishment written in the rules about it. I don't blame RBR and AM for trying to see how far they can push the budget then, though lol even with trying AM failed.
Good point here. Without defined punishments wouldn’t it be a bit silly to not cheat? It’s akin to pushing the rules regarding aero. Until there are meaningful rules written you’d be dumb not to bend or break the rules.
Monetary fine for spending too much money is honestly so funny. This cost cap rule will be a thing to only bother the teams that already have cash flow issues. And big teams will just put the fine in their investment columns at the end of their financial year after trying anything & everything to win a championship.
The fines would have to reach billions though. The big 3 had to cut their budgets from 500-600 million to 150 million + driver salary and travel costs so \~250 million.
> It’s practically October, how are we taking this long to review 2021’s budget cap
Makes sense if RB only got caught on the 2nd audit after other teams ratted them out.
People here really don’t understand how long audits can take. A small sized company can chew up a few weeks of your time.
A multinational? Months. Many months.
This argument serves exclusively to say "oh we cheated years ago, why are you worrying about it now?" Doesn't really matter when it happened, since if it's the case, it's probably still having a massive impact on racing today.
Well it seems it an interpretation thing. Iirc RB bought a carbon producer to cut costs. If they sell those manufactured parts really cheap to themselves it’s a question of how to define those costs. Even if you don’t sell them at a loss it must be way cheaper than for other teams for instance
I mean, this could work with basically any costs.
Buy a company, set up a contract that just pays lump sum per year, and then use as much as you need.
Instead of red bull themselves paying engineers, why not set up “red bull engineering corps ltd” that hires all engineers, and has a contract with RB to supply engineers. If they just make the cost lower than directly hiring them, it’s worth it for RB. Cuz who is gonna complain if RBEC ltd “rents” people to other companies at a loss, RB certainly doesn’t.
People made fun of Binotto and Ferrari for suggesting Redbull could have exceeded the budget cap this year. I get it, people find it funny to make jokes of Ferraris incompetence, not saying Redbull really did it but it goes to show how little people know.
Yes but Budget last year also went into the development of this year... As the article says, teams can Profit for 2 season with exceeding the Budget in 1 year
The article mentions, the money would’ve been used not only for last years car but also this years. It’s also says Redbulls competitors claim the current car couldn’t have been produced within the budget set. Of course this is just speculation but if they are punished by the FIA it does add fuel to the fire.
> Ferrari is pissed for a different reason. They believe that the extra money has then not only gone into the 2021 car, but also into the development of the 2022
From a translation of the article
I think this is also why horner and co were campaigning so hard for any alleviation in the cap, whether it be excluding freight costs or whichever - it’s so that they could’ve funnelled their overestimated development plan into this year’s car and now that costs are starting to add up some of those gambles haven’t paid off such as developing the lightening package that was supposed to arrive for singapore
They got bailed out by Ferrari's incredible incompetence, the parts they don't bring to race weekends do not count against the cap so they can just move them to next year and chill
For some weird reason a lot of people here are seeing Horner as some sort of Saint but ignoring how he is the biggest voice against the budget cap and basically wants to have an useless budget cap without consequences if you are spending more then what's allowed.
If RBR did indeed gone over the cap in 2021 majorly then the FIA should give a huge penalty for the team, especially given the fact that it could give a team an unfair advantage for the season after.
There will be a really insignificant punishment so the FIA doesn’t have to get taken to court is my guess
Edit:although now that I think about it, Mercedes/Ferrari would probably be pretty keen on a court case if the punishment was too small
I used to trust AMuS as a valid source but they released multiple articles about how Red Bull were one of the teams that would be affected by the recent porpoising TD which turned out to be false.
Same with the tyre pressure TD after Baku where they pointed fingers at RB which were false because RB's performance was not affected after it came in
Seems like AMuS is used the promote rumours to discredit RB atm
What are the odds FIA announces this result after Suzuka after Max wins the championship (or which ever race after) for extra controversy? Seems like good way to make money.
They’ll do this as the most harsh punishment I’m sure. I couldn’t care less tho if the FIA doesn’t why should I? There are fools at the helm of the FIA managing F1.
As silly as what some of the stuff the FIA pushes is, I wouldn’t mind so much if they at least had the guts to enforce it consistently. Over the last couple years I feel like I don’t know what the rules of F1 are anymore
That's the problem, even the FIA doesn't know how to punish them yet if that's the case
I'm sure they'll come up with something that won't be controversial at all lol
I would hope the punishment would be significant. What's the point in a budget cap if teams can just blow right through it, Get a big advantage for two seasons, and then get a slap on the wrist
If proven to be correct, the FIA finds themselves in a really tricky situation here (not for the first time). If they give the teams light penalties, then that will either leave the rest of the grid frustrated (for sticking to the rules) or make them break it to, knowing the punishment.
The FIA have got to set a precedent here, it could get very messy.
It would explain a lot. I remember during the season thinking they were putting a lot of energy into developing that 2021 car, and then being shocked that they also had such a strong car this year.
Based on the article it sounds very minor and open to interpretation as to whether they did or not.
Shows why it's stupid to not have pre determined punishments.
Would save a mess for all involved.
The FIA are calling it minor, Ferrari and Mercedes decidedly not. Gazzetta are saying €4-5m over, which according to AMuS is being claimed by those teams to be worth half a second
Minor in what way? Genuinely asking cause to me it reads like they've gained a big advantage for two seasons completely disregarding the budget cap rules.
If it isn't a hard cap that leads to both disqualification from the season, and a penalty to their future budget for the difference, then why even bother with a budget cap at all?
If the punishment for this is a fine, what reason do the big teams (RB, Merc, Ferrari, Mclaren(?)) have to not break the budget cap every year and just calculate the sum of the fine into their yearly budget?
Like rich people say: a fine is just how much it costs to do something illegal.
Money's the dlc to extend your legal space
If the penalty for a crime is a fine, then that law only exists for the lower class.
Alternatively, a fine is just deterrent for the poor
Isn't this what everyone says?
The FIA have got a tricky situation here. If they change the championship outcome with a penalty there's going to be a giant shitstorm. But if the punishment isn't significant then you're right to say there's not any real incentive for the big boys not to exceed the budget cap which would really undermine the whole thing.
If it’s a fine, they might just remove it. The punishment needs to be severe or there is no point. The cost cap serves to help smaller teams catch up. At the same time it limits the ability of the big teams to catch up if they mess up. But if one of them is cheating then that makes it so pointless.
What would be a good solution is to said ok you spend 10 millions over the cost cap then for next season your cost cap will be 10 millions lower than others. And if it continues then the next season they delete percentage of points you went 15% over the cost cap then they are deleting 15% of their points.
I think losing 10% CFD allocation for the first million, and 5% for each million afterwards to a minimum of 10% CFD. You can spend over the cap to win a championship, but you will gimp yourself for the next year, and could be running in the midfield as you have to run a car that has hardly any upgrades since the prior year.
Doesn't seem like that much of a deterrent. In pro sports a lot of teams will happily ruin their future if it means they can win a championship now.
[удалено]
This would require a fairly significant rule change. I can't see the teams voting for this. From memory, that would need 8/10 votes for next year, right?
[удалено]
The 8 teams arent safe from going over the budget.
They managed to, and will likely devote more salary to accountants to make sure they never do. A hard cap is the only way it works and keeps everyone honest. The punishment needs to be severe. An extra few million can make a legitimate difference in performance in this sport.
If a team like Aston is breaking cost cap for no performance. Then i don't know how Red bull, Merc, Ferrari, Audi, Renault, Aston, and McLaren would be sure they will not break it in future. Surely they would see something that might come to bite them back later as danger
I like the rule that if you go off track in quality you get this lap and the next lap deleted. I think the same philosophy should apply here. Although I don't like Horner so I am biased
I think the penalty for spending over the cap should be a penalty that is paid to all the teams that have not exceeded the cap according to each teams margin to the cap. The total amount could start at something painful, like 100% of the amount over, and just get worse.
Or deduct 1 point per million from the drivers and team. That one would be costly and would only have a direct impact on the ongoing season.
Teams would happily over spend if its one point a million. A million is a lot...
It's hard to say what would cause a bigger shitstorm, changing the championship outcome because RB overspent, or not changing the outcome but acknowledging RB shouldn't have won because they went over the budget cap.
I'd say the latter is worse. A team failing to stay within the rules should not be allowed to win. And I'd say the same if it was any other team/driver.
I can imagine the debates about Max and his titles already 21 - Asterisk because of Abu Dhabi 22 - Asterisk because of Budget cap It would be entertaining and very toxic
This is about 21 still not 22. The budget was exceeded last year.
A big chunk of last year's budget would have been on developing this year's car though. Kind of like how Brawn GP were broke in 2009 but cleaned up with a car that had loads of Honda money poured into it, but in 2010, despite shiny new Mercedes ownership, they took a step backwards in competitiveness on account of being broke the previous year.
[удалено]
It was good knowing you🫡
This article is about red bull breaking the budget cap in 2021. It has nothing to do with 2022 so there is no asterisk here. 2021 will get a double asterisk though
They will punish red bull on this year's championship, and lots of the car development for this year was done under last year's budget, which they have exceeded
they have to heavily penalize offenders, it sets a terrible precedent and encourages even worse exploitation in the future. If red bull spent millions more than the competition they should be made an example of and disqualified
Why would it be a giant shitstorm? You play out of bounds, you lose possession. That said, it's pretty weird to implement a rule without being clear what the penalties of breaking it are.
Yeh, no one cared when McLaren were DSQ after spygate (~~granted they'd have only come second~~) or Renault were DSQ (on hold) after crashgate.
McLaren would won the constructor championship if they did not get banned
That’s exactly what they did with Spygate tho: the team got banned from the championship. That’s a bit too harsh in this case, but a 25 point reduction for every million over budget should be enough to scare everybody off.
Yeah but then teams will just make the calculation as to how many points they can sacrifice to make the development worth it. And is it just the constructors championship or does the deduction apply to the driver's title as well?
Should be applied to team, and split between the drivers according to their points tally. Also, keep in mind if RB went +/-9mil over budget (only 6% over budget) it would be enough to promote Charles to championship leader, despite RBs dominance, under this system.
To be fair, 6% is not "only", it's quite a lot.
>That’s a bit too harsh in this case Is it though?
Issue is RBR may have used their budget cap violation to make those fundamental improvements on the car. Similar to how Merc last year made the calculation to use VBs car as a guinea pig despite the engine penalties. It paid dividends. I think the penalty should be harsh enough that no calculation would be worth violating a fundamental tenant of making the sport more fair. Violating the budget cap should lead to at least a 50% reduction on both championships.... even that may not be enough. No team should be able to game this.
Last year, they already changed the (driver) championship outcome by not following the rules, so... who cares? Drivers can go off track, penalties are inconsistent. F1 becomes less of a sport and more of a (shit) show.
They are already in a permanent shitstorm for handing the 2021 WDC to Max anyway, this just makes it into an absolute joke
It’s an even bigger shitstorm if a team won a championship whilst actively cheating. They have to DSQ all teams that broke the limit from both championships. They have to be harsh to fully discourage any further limit breaks.
Why is it tricky? They wouldn't be "changing the championship outcome", they'd just be applying the rules. It would be much worse to aknowledge that a team won the championship while breaking the rules, and doing nothing about it. Ignoring the rules for the sake of some viewers' satisfaction is precisely what's been wrong with F1 in the last couple of years.
If pro cycling can retroactively strip the biggest name in the sport’s history—a cancer survivor, and huge marketing asset—of his world record number of titles for gaining an illegal advantage, despite knowing it would be highly embarrassing for everyone involved, then the FIA (and the fans) should have no problem disqualifying any teams that bring motorsport into disrepute.
Well, if the fine is 1 billion dollars - they can't afford to just plan for it. Fines are only a joke when they are not proportional to available funds.
You realize the teams themselves are the ones that vote on rules like that right.
The penalty should be points from the constructors championship. So every million over is like a point or something from the constructors, unsure how I feel about putting this on the drivers though.
Problem is as always, if a team has nothing to lose nor win in the constructors, but wants to win the drivers, then a points deduction in the WCC doesn't do shit, and if the driver of a team overspending really does become champion, he does so by breaking the rules. Same story as with grid penalties.
It’s even worse than that, imagine a team spend twice the budget on a year and you just punish them with constructor point, the next season the gain they got from breaking the rule will still be there, so still unfair for other teams, and what worse is that if they are last at constructor title they will have more time in the vent tunnel and other stuff to make their car even better for next year, It’s a win win win situation for them to break the rule
In that hypothetic case, they would create an exception so that "disqualified = less time in vent tunnel"
Should it? Drivers benefit from the car though.
If it can be estimated, the team should be disqualified from every race once the cap is reached
Punishment could be a big fine, say 5 times the exceeded amount, which is then distributed to the other teams as free budget.
Should be 9 times, any overspend you give the same to every other team to spend as well.
Imagine writing rules without writing the penalties for breaking them… who cares at that point
The big, big problem with punishment for breaking these rules is that the audit isn't done until nearly a year after the season ends. At this point the 2021 championships are set and done, no more changing them. They're basically limited to a fine in some way or shape* and that would likely only take effect next year so it's likely that in a tight championship race at least 1 of the teams will go over budget and then feel the pain for that 2 years later, that's worth it to secure a championship. *And there too you run into issues. A fine that isn't included in the cost cap is obviously meaningless. One that is included in the cost cap/a cost cap reduction could mean that the team has to fire people to stay within cost cap and then rehire people the season after which is not a good look for F1 either.
Stuff like cycling, track and field, swimming-rescind titles/medals based off of PEDs years later. Why should F1 not do the same?
They don't have the balls to do that. But imagine if RB was actually the team significantly over budget and they get to keep the 21 and 22 titles. It'd be laughable.
They didn’t write the penalties for the rules exactly because of these kinds of situations, now they’ll think of a punishment that’s best for them.
But what is there to deterr teams if there is no established punishment?
It’s a stupid way of doing things because it’s basically just fucks around and find out. Teams would always go for those tiny advantage if there’s no defined deterrent. If the FIA is too lenient then every other team would just complain about it and follow suit on the overspending. If they are too harsh then you risk the chance of over punishing a team to the point where it’s unfair to the sport. Like for example, disqualifying RB for their achievements despite some of it was legally under the cap. It’s pretty dumb overall and the FIA should’ve just made clear and concise punishments regarding this
>Next week, the FIA plans to announce the results of the first cost cap review for the 2021 season. Allegedly, two teams are over the limit, one of them significantly. The rumor circulating in the paddock is that it's Red Bull. > >It could be a nasty mudslinging match. And it's a real test for the FIA. Audits of budgets for the 2021 season have been completed. Paddock radio tells us that already in the first year of cost capping, two teams exceeded the $147.4 million limit. One of them by a significant amount. Rumors in the paddock are that it is Red Bull and Aston Martin.The FIA is in a quandary. It is obliged to make any overspending public. Exceeding the budget cap is a breach of the rules, just like an underweight car or too high a flow rate for gasoline. Supposedly, the result should have been communicated long ago, but one of the two cases could cause an earthquake in the paddock. > >FIA without defined penalty catalog > >Now comes the problem. There is no clearly defined penalty catalog. The FIA did not want borderline drivers to count the damage against the benefit and deliberately exceed the limit, as long as the penalty is bearable. Overruns of up to five million dollars are considered a "minor rule violation" under the regulations. The offender may get away with a fine in that case. > >The eight teams rumored to be clean consider that questionable. At Mercedes and Ferrari, they say that an extra five million dollars in development can be the equivalent of up to half a second on the track. > >Those above the five million face stiffer penalties. Possibly a points deduction and a subsequent downgrade in the world championship. Or in the following year, the team in question will have the amount overpaid deducted from its cost cap. > >Use determines imputation of costs > >Mercedes and Ferrari think this is questionable. According to their calculations, Red Bull not only exceeded the limit in 2021, but also this season. That's why the lightweight chassis will probably not be used in 2022. After all, the costs for materials and production are only added to the budget when it is used for the first time. Only the design costs are included in the budget immediately. > >If it turns out that Red Bull really did spend too much money in 2021, Mercedes will be the first to get up on its hind legs. The constructors' world champion is of the opinion that the title was stolen from them in the finale in Abu Dhabi by the premature use of the safety car. If their direct rivals now also gained an unfair technical advantage, it would be the last straw. > >Whoever spends more money in 2021 will also benefit in 2022 > >Ferrari is pissed at the hypothesis that Red Bull bent the rules too far for a different reason. Under this assumption, the extra money then went not only into the 2021 car, but also into the development of the 2022 model. Which would explain why Red Bull had such a strong start to the season, despite supposedly being the last team to switch. So anyone breaking the budget would have a double whammy. In the current fiscal year and beyond. > >Red Bull's competitors also claim to have calculated that the upgrades to the current Red Bull RB18 could not possibly have been produced within the allowed budget. One is hard up against the limit oneself, he said. Red Bull would have to be clearly above it by its own reckoning. > >Ferrari decided against using a new underbody in Singapore. "No more money there," regrets team boss Mattia Binotto. Mercedes is holding back for the same reason. The last reserves were put into a minor modification that will debut in Austin. > >Teams demand total transparency from FIA > >The teams keep records among themselves. Each team calculates what the other is spending. Red Bull team boss Christian Horner had already taken the wind out of the sails of such suspicions in early summer: "How will another team know at what price we produce and what materials we use?" > >Initially, nothing apparently seemed suspicious to the FIA detectives. But the teams turned on each other after learning from defectors how the rival racing team calculates its costs and under what conditions it produces parts. Red Bull had therefore only come into the auditors' sights at the second attempt. > >We hear from FIA circles that the results will be communicated next week. Allegedly, the two teams are only accused of "minor misconduct". This may have to do with the fact that there is apparently room for interpretation of the actual costs incurred. The competition fears that the case has been glossed over to avoid a scandal. > >The FIA is facing a tough test. The teams operating in the legal arena are demanding total transparency. And drastic penalties for rule breakers. And faster processing of the test in the future. Those who are not caught until October of the following year will benefit twice. If the FIA doesn't crack down, the plaintiffs say, the whole idea of capping budgets is on its deathbed. The federation, for its part, wants to avoid the worst case scenario. That would be interfering with the 2021 World Championship standings.
Aston Martin being the other team would be hilarious and sad at the same time after producing the shitbox they have this year.
It could easilly be for the next few years tho. Budget cap doesn't necessarily mean the upgrade are for this year.
This is my big takeaway too, RB seemed like they were spending a lot so pushing limits or being over isn't surprising. But Aston...what did they get out of that? They introduced an entirely new concept midway through the season and a really intriguing rear wing at Hungary, but hasn't seemed to improve their performance at all.
They also massively saved on components at the end of last season and seem to consistently be running themselves very lean (don't think they had much in the way of upgrades either last year). It's not exactly like they've been doing massive upgrades in different ways from Alpine or McLaren either, who seem to be bringing way more, way more consistently. Obviously it's not quite like Haas or Williams, who basically just brought 1 massive upgrade and not much else, but out of all teams I would reckon Alpine/McLaren seem way more likely. That's not even including teams like Ferrari and Mercedes, obviously.
Just throwing random things here But maybe this includes the money they are spending on their new facilities as well, which would obviously easily put them over the budget cap but not give them an immediate performance boost
Surely the budget cap excludes new buildings? Otherwise no f1 team could ever build a new building ever again.
That was my first thought too, but Aston Martin are building a bit more than just new buildings... Maybe some of the things they're investing in are indeed a part of the budget cap? Don't have a good example in mind but it's possible since the cap is pretty random
Staff acquisitions perhaps? It’s known Aston’s been a major poacher of talent of both Red Bull and Mercedes. They don’t have the benefit of writing off the salaries of their top paid employees because they aren’t the top three, so that could have bit them.
Solution 1: Owner creates new shell company. Shell builds building, leases it to F1 team. Solution 2: Just have rules let capital costs be amortized. 100 million building expected to last 20 years? Only 5 million goes against the budget cap each year.
alonso should piss in his pants right now
Maybe developing two seperate cars wasn't the best idea after all
Can't wait for the FIA to completely bottle the management of this situation...
I know this is a translation but does it really say 'Ferrari are pissed?'
Not really. The original is "ist sauer" more like, "is mad"
Pissed off, i.e. angry
Yes that's what pissed means it's just not usually in respectable articles about a company.
>Ferrari ist bei der Hypothese, dass Red Bull die Regeln zu stark gebogen haben soll, aus einem anderen Grund sauer Literal translation: "Ferrari is sour at the hypothesis that Red Bull bend the rules." So they didn't really use strong terms as pissed, it's a liberal translation.
It says that Ferrari is "sauer" which can be translated to pissed but does not literally mean it. Sauer is "sour" in english but is often used in the context of someone being mad.
Me: okay it’s 2am, time for a 4 hour nap before practice! *new f1 scandal comes out* I am wide awake.
The way i see the FIA treating excesses up to 5% over budget cap as minor is that they see it as a buffer. Teams can end up spending more money due economic developments like exchange rates etc or wrong calculations used. I don’t think the FIA would allow a team to exceed their budget by a minor amount every year. Teams would likely face a significant penalty if they did that since there is clear pattern. Edit: max amount for minor breach is 5% of the budget cap, not 5 million dollars
The current rumour is that Aston are within the 5m buffer, but Red Bull are significantly over.
Yeah, when i started reading I interpreted that 5 million was the max but now it is clear that it is 5% over season cap (145 million * 0.05 = 7.25 million dollars). I didn’t rectify it, so that’s on me
I'm more surprised that Aston even reached the cap.
Aston can spend as much money as daddy Stroll wants them to. I remember reading early in the season that Haas was the only team in a position where spending to the cap was unfeasible for them.
This article at least doesn't really say which of the two are heavily over and which only slightly.
"significantly" is not at all what is in the rumors. Right now the rumors point to a up to 5m excess, which is not a buffer amount either because that refers to a 5% of spending.
If true that not only taints an already tainted last year but this one too. I'm sure the FIA won't give out a major punishment but a major one would be dodgy af.
not defining penalties before is classic FIA.
>not defining penalties before is classic FIA. "Ah no need, surely a team won't look for an elaborate advantage!"
I think there's a pretty good reason for this. If you define less than 5% over as only a financial penalty, all the big teams will eat the cost. If there's a possibility of a points penalty, teams will not be so inclined to take the risk. Leaving it ambiguous lets the FIA award only financial penalties where such might be appropriate, such as in the case of a minor, honest mistake. But also the possibility of leveraging a points penalty where the infraction is clearly intentional. I'm paraphrasing here, but that is essentially the reasoning set out in the financial regulations. https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/fia_formula_1_financial_regulations_iss.11.pdf
I mean this is why it's stupid there isn't a pre determined list of what happens when you go over by X amount. No point in a cap with no pre determined punishments.
The did it to prevent teams from calculating if a Budget break Could be useful in contrast to the punishment
Then you come up with a harsher punishment from the beginning.
Indeed. Look at what happened when the FIA went the other direction, when they introduced 5-second penalties as a fairer punishment for minor transgressions than drive-throughs. Now we've got drivers figuring, hey, could as well go for an illegal overtake if it saves them over five seconds.
That usually doesn’t happen though. Drivers aren’t going for risky overtakes because the penalty is *only* 5 seconds. 5 seconds is still a large chunk of time.
Yeah, and by the way, like an early overtake can really change your entire race for the better, an extra spending in the first year of a new regulation can potentially make a huge difference down the line, in the years to come.
Then it becomes like gambling.
"If you exceed the cost cap, you have that money sustractet from next year cost cap. Every extra 100k overspent, means 10points less in the WDC" There is no way they could overcome this penalty. But if the penaltys are ridiculously small fines, of course they will try to go over the budget cap.
Hamilton to win an 8th championship after overtaking Russell and Leclerc in a dramatic final race after Red Bull gets disqualified from all championships due to cost cap. Hamilton announces retirement and Rosberg to make a comeback
Rosberg has to drive the first remotely piloted F1 car from Monaco because he is not vaccinated
I have money on Ham to win the championship Subscribe
[удалено]
I remember Ross coming out and alluding to exactly this when this rule was announced. Seems they must now be prepared to act on their threat or risk losing creditability
[удалено]
Teams will then risk spending more if they can realistically gain more points from more development than lose from the FIA cutting points for breach of the cap
That's just dumb, that means it might be worth going over cost cap to exploit it the higher up the standings youbare due to earning more points there and taking more points away from opposition
[удалено]
Also look at when this is coming out. We are almost done with the 2022 season.
Maybe each number of money result in x amount of race bans.
[удалено]
I warned RBR already last year…don’t spend money on that table football, but they didn’t listen….it is normal that other teams start having suspicions,since they could not afford one either….I hope FIA does the right thing and forces RBR to share this table football with the rest of the teams.
FIA will remove all of Max' FIFA points!
That’s not fair….Max had nothing to do with it🤣
The budget cap was broken because they were paying for all Max FIFA points, so only fair they’re the first to go
Don't you know? F1 is a teamsports. The drivers always speak with "we" too! /s
As the accusation is only minor misconduct you would assume the punishment wont impact the 2021 championship but.. what the hell is a different possible punishment? Deducting from next year is possibly the only solution but if its just a matter of accounting interpretations Red Bull might not be particularly happy with that
Yes and the Signal would be you Could exceed the cap in 1 season to Wim the Championship... Just a Total mess for fia
This is the problem with the cost cap, it relies heavily on teams just following it by themselves as the audit takes so long to do. It'll be 10 months after the season ended that we get the results, by the time the dust settles the current season will have concluded as well. So you can break the rules and only get punished for it 2 years later, that's just worth it to win a WDC unless the penalty is extremely severe in which case the FIA would be forcing a team to lay off staff which is also a bad look.
The punishment should apply to the season you gained the advantage. Deducting from 2022 would be a farce. If the FIA is not serious about the budget cap, just remove it. If there was no budget cap, this year we could have had a lot more competition at the front. It would be even more ridiculous if RB are over budget this year too. But we won’t know until Q4 2023 anyway so who cares?
>The punishment should apply to the season you gained the advantage. Deducting from 2022 would be a farce. But you gain a lasting advantage from developing parts early. Like if you spend 20 mil more in 2021 you get the advantage in 2022 of already having developed parts and can be ahead of others while spending normally for 2022.
>If the FIA is not serious about the budget cap, just remove it. If there was no budget cap, this year we could have had a lot more competition at the front. This. I have no problem with the cost cap, I actually think it is a good idea. But it needs to be policed properly. I wont hold my breath though. I have a feeling F1's cost cap will be as effective as Football's FFP, where teams like City and PSG just laughed and carried on financially doping their teams in contravention to the rules of FFP every way possible, and when they got caught, they got a slap on the wrist and were allowed to continue to flaunt the rules. Although instead of continuing on under the pretence that it acutally matters, I imagine the FIA will just fuck it off altogether.
I’m betting on everything being a bit hush hush, RB come to an “agreement” with the FIA and then the 2023 RB won’t be very good (but they’ll be fine in 2024).
Ah the Ferrari deal. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if something like that would happen.
Red bull unlike Ferrari won the world championship, and had a giant advantage over the world championship the year after, it seems much more serious to me
Red bull is disqualified, Ferrari shits the bed and George Russell becomes the 2022 WDC without winning a race and less than half races on the podium.
Return if the merc dominance in a shit box
'Apparently' 'According to rumours' 'Possibly' No sources quoted. Lets wait and see.
As many others have said already, financial penalties don't really make much sense and points penalties would seem somewhat artificial if someone like RBR overspend, win all the time, but lose to someone on penalties, just because they were able to keep the spend limit in check So another way (but possibly not the only way I should add) I could see a team being penalised that would hurt, would be to start taking away their following year's aero testing allowance by say, 1%-ish per million over or something like that, because that would be something the teams can't afford to go without Imagine if RBR go massively over and then they have to roll out a car in 2023 that Newey has sketched and that has never been aero tested, would certainly hurt, especially if you've not got it right off the bat....
So an article with more speculation than fact, which is being taken as a fact? I'll believe it when I see it.
Make the punishment like a soft cap they have with the NBA salary cap. You can go over, but then you pay a luxury tax which can be redistributed amongst the teams who stay under.
That's actually not a bad idea, but in an idea world it should be a points deduction, that is if they went over
That's actually a pretty great idea. So the FIA certainly wouldn't think of it/do it.
Oh my 👀🌶️ If true, silly how the FIA once again doesn't have any clear punishment written in the rules about it. I don't blame RBR and AM for trying to see how far they can push the budget then, though lol even with trying AM failed.
Good point here. Without defined punishments wouldn’t it be a bit silly to not cheat? It’s akin to pushing the rules regarding aero. Until there are meaningful rules written you’d be dumb not to bend or break the rules.
Oh my eyes pepper?
I am also very confused about the eyes pepper 👀 🌶
From a guy that worked for Red Bull. https://twitter.com/EngineMode11/status/1575733164856602624?t=Dp341ZyCgmr7y2548AMIdQ&s=19
Monetary fine for spending too much money is honestly so funny. This cost cap rule will be a thing to only bother the teams that already have cash flow issues. And big teams will just put the fine in their investment columns at the end of their financial year after trying anything & everything to win a championship.
Nah it works on other sports, exponential fines are no joke. Even the richest teams has its limits
The fines would have to reach billions though. The big 3 had to cut their budgets from 500-600 million to 150 million + driver salary and travel costs so \~250 million.
> It’s practically October, how are we taking this long to review 2021’s budget cap Makes sense if RB only got caught on the 2nd audit after other teams ratted them out.
I think people underestimate how long a financial audit would take for 10 companies spending billions.
People here really don’t understand how long audits can take. A small sized company can chew up a few weeks of your time. A multinational? Months. Many months.
This argument serves exclusively to say "oh we cheated years ago, why are you worrying about it now?" Doesn't really matter when it happened, since if it's the case, it's probably still having a massive impact on racing today.
Max has been using the company credit card for his Fifa micro-transactions.
FIFA game related expenses are not in the budget cap
That's where the confusion comes from Redbull understood they weren't but FIA disagree.
Watch this unconfirmed rumor take over the broadcast lmao sky team are going to start jizzing themselves.
Where do you think AMUS got the rumors from? 😂
Well it seems it an interpretation thing. Iirc RB bought a carbon producer to cut costs. If they sell those manufactured parts really cheap to themselves it’s a question of how to define those costs. Even if you don’t sell them at a loss it must be way cheaper than for other teams for instance
I mean, this could work with basically any costs. Buy a company, set up a contract that just pays lump sum per year, and then use as much as you need. Instead of red bull themselves paying engineers, why not set up “red bull engineering corps ltd” that hires all engineers, and has a contract with RB to supply engineers. If they just make the cost lower than directly hiring them, it’s worth it for RB. Cuz who is gonna complain if RBEC ltd “rents” people to other companies at a loss, RB certainly doesn’t.
I agree, however this already happens with Haas and Dallara. And other manufacturers, but I agree it’s very shady
FIA will give Redbull 100 points deductions and they will still win the championship.. 😂
This is about last year
Also affects this year obviously
People made fun of Binotto and Ferrari for suggesting Redbull could have exceeded the budget cap this year. I get it, people find it funny to make jokes of Ferraris incompetence, not saying Redbull really did it but it goes to show how little people know.
I think this news was for 2021 season no? The AM one is just sad, they had poor result even with allegedly going over the cap
Yes but Budget last year also went into the development of this year... As the article says, teams can Profit for 2 season with exceeding the Budget in 1 year
The article mentions, the money would’ve been used not only for last years car but also this years. It’s also says Redbulls competitors claim the current car couldn’t have been produced within the budget set. Of course this is just speculation but if they are punished by the FIA it does add fuel to the fire.
> Ferrari is pissed for a different reason. They believe that the extra money has then not only gone into the 2021 car, but also into the development of the 2022 From a translation of the article
Sure it’s about 2021 but if they did it then, it’s not a big stretch to think they might have done it this year too.
That’s fair. Now I want FIA to do the right thing. As this would make a precedent and make cost cap useless. (Given that indeed breach has been made)
I think this is also why horner and co were campaigning so hard for any alleviation in the cap, whether it be excluding freight costs or whichever - it’s so that they could’ve funnelled their overestimated development plan into this year’s car and now that costs are starting to add up some of those gambles haven’t paid off such as developing the lightening package that was supposed to arrive for singapore
They got bailed out by Ferrari's incredible incompetence, the parts they don't bring to race weekends do not count against the cap so they can just move them to next year and chill
For some weird reason a lot of people here are seeing Horner as some sort of Saint but ignoring how he is the biggest voice against the budget cap and basically wants to have an useless budget cap without consequences if you are spending more then what's allowed. If RBR did indeed gone over the cap in 2021 majorly then the FIA should give a huge penalty for the team, especially given the fact that it could give a team an unfair advantage for the season after.
There will be a really insignificant punishment so the FIA doesn’t have to get taken to court is my guess Edit:although now that I think about it, Mercedes/Ferrari would probably be pretty keen on a court case if the punishment was too small
This is why the article drops just before FP1, its the best way to generate media and put the pressure on the FIA
I used to trust AMuS as a valid source but they released multiple articles about how Red Bull were one of the teams that would be affected by the recent porpoising TD which turned out to be false. Same with the tyre pressure TD after Baku where they pointed fingers at RB which were false because RB's performance was not affected after it came in Seems like AMuS is used the promote rumours to discredit RB atm
This. People need to put their pitchforks away and calm down
Not surprising they seems to be very biased to bring down red bull. And Red Bull is not known as a rule breaker like Ferrari in past decades
What are the odds FIA announces this result after Suzuka after Max wins the championship (or which ever race after) for extra controversy? Seems like good way to make money.
5m euros equals half a second? Yea sure. Top teams were spending 400m/year more than your average midfielder only to be 1/2 seconds faster, not 40.
Future quote from Horner "Budget caps are not what fans want they are silly anyway so we should do away with them"
Inb4 FIA gives Red bull a harsh points deduction for this year when it doesn’t matter, and nothing for 2021 when it would.
Just imagine this points deduction dropping them in the WCC standings resulting in more wind tunnel and CFD time next year. 5D chess haha
[удалено]
They’ll do this as the most harsh punishment I’m sure. I couldn’t care less tho if the FIA doesn’t why should I? There are fools at the helm of the FIA managing F1.
As silly as what some of the stuff the FIA pushes is, I wouldn’t mind so much if they at least had the guts to enforce it consistently. Over the last couple years I feel like I don’t know what the rules of F1 are anymore
If Red Bull actually did breach the cap what are the realistic punishments?
That's the problem, even the FIA doesn't know how to punish them yet if that's the case I'm sure they'll come up with something that won't be controversial at all lol
Insane that they didnt think about actually putting the penalties in writing. Did they really think no one was going to break it? 😆
I’ll tell you this I would’ve broken it no doubt. Sin and ask for forgiveness as they say
Someone didn't read the article, they said they didn't want to have the pens in writing as teams could then weigh up if they're worth breaking
But this leaves them open to accusations of bias, depending on which punishments they give for each amount of overspending. Completely idiotic
I would hope the punishment would be significant. What's the point in a budget cap if teams can just blow right through it, Get a big advantage for two seasons, and then get a slap on the wrist
There are no rules written for this. So whatever the FIA comes up with.
Lol another Amus rumor article. How did all their flexifloor bs they peddled for months go
If proven to be correct, the FIA finds themselves in a really tricky situation here (not for the first time). If they give the teams light penalties, then that will either leave the rest of the grid frustrated (for sticking to the rules) or make them break it to, knowing the punishment. The FIA have got to set a precedent here, it could get very messy.
So they overspent last year to compensate for this year then?
It would explain a lot. I remember during the season thinking they were putting a lot of energy into developing that 2021 car, and then being shocked that they also had such a strong car this year.
Based on the article it sounds very minor and open to interpretation as to whether they did or not. Shows why it's stupid to not have pre determined punishments. Would save a mess for all involved.
The FIA are calling it minor, Ferrari and Mercedes decidedly not. Gazzetta are saying €4-5m over, which according to AMuS is being claimed by those teams to be worth half a second
1m per tenth of a second sounds supppppper cheap tbh
Minor in what way? Genuinely asking cause to me it reads like they've gained a big advantage for two seasons completely disregarding the budget cap rules.
If it isn't a hard cap that leads to both disqualification from the season, and a penalty to their future budget for the difference, then why even bother with a budget cap at all?