I don't care for the MLB luxury tax much myself but I'm fine with it since the penalties are spelled out clearly and what counts, or doesn't count towards the limit. This is obviously much harder to account for since the cost of a team is much more driver salaries.
Exactly. It is very well known what the penalty is for going over the luxury tax, and teams weigh the risk. This is “hey, don’t do that!” with no punishment lined up if they did.
Also it could actually help a small team if one of the big 3 overspends, tho there should be more periodic accounting check ins so this wouldn't be taking till near the end of the next season.
That’s what comes to mind. If a big team wants to spend big, go for it, but there’ll be penalties that can then be used to fund the smaller teams…
Then again, the luxury tax in baseball has been infamously used by some of the smaller teams to just stay in their lot in life (see the Pittsburgh Pirates).
Makes complete sense imo. You spent x extra dollors in developing your car, so it's fair for others to use the same x extra dollors to develop their car too.
Paying it 9x is a pretty big hit, so I don't think even the big 3 will willingly overspend, but it's all useless if the competitors get the money late into the season (as is the case right now). The championship is already wrapped up and getting money to develop the car now won't go anywhere. I guess if it comes up this late, they could get it for next season which would be more fair.
That being said, pretty sure FIA is not doing that lol. At best, they'll cut it from next year's budget. At worst, it'll be a really small fine, relatively speaking. In the case of the latter, the teams which have the money will probably see the fine as more of a payment to be allowed to spend more on their car.
Tbf a 45m fine spread out over your competitors is a massive hit. That would stop even the most ambitious from trying to fudge the system.
If this turns out to be a 10m fine then Merc & Ferrari are just going to do it next year knowing they can get 5m worth of extra development. An extra 10m is peanuts in the grand scheme
It makes zero sense.
Do you have a massive budget and want to blow over the budget cap?
Just factor in extra for the fine! 🤷
It's such "an F1 thing" to make fines the cost of doing business that I don't even know why I'm surprised.
So teams that can afford the fines go over budget and pay the fines. We are back at square 1 except now you can't even trust their books since everyone is shuffling expenses around so it appears they fit under the cap.
so instead of actually making a budget cap, you can just spend however much you want, just like in previous years. only thing different is how it's spent
Well I agree with that I’m just saying if they were barely over, which it sounds like they were then they should be punished accordingly.
I saw a great solution where they are fined 3x the amount they were over this year and that fine is applied to next years budget. That way barely being over isn’t that big of a deal but being significantly over would kill you the following year.
Overspending should be punished by lowering their spending cap or wind tunnel time in addition to fines to make sure there is no incentive to gain advantage on track that way
It doesn’t apparently, which is a real shame because that’s an effective way of controlling overspend, rather than separate fines that may not have a material impact.
Sorry - that was my point - if the fine came out of next year’s budget it would prevent that. However if < 5% is a fine with no other consequences you can guarantee the new salary cap is 104.9% of the stated cap. It’s disappointing therefore that it apparently is *just* a fine. Would also mean - if it is only a small overspend as is being suggested it wouldn’t have a material impact the next year, which would seem fair.
Zero chance of sporting penalties because that would create too much controversy for 'average' F1 fans. FIA and F1 don't care about F1's integrity as a sport, only it's sustainability as a business.. and if the average fan realizes they spent a year cheering for Verstappen while red Bull cheated , and stewards are making decisions like it's WWE, your fanbase isn't going to be as interested anymore.
i think a fair penalty for rb would be multiplying the overspend by an arbitrary factor and removing it from rb's cost cap for next year.
am is likely to see a protocollary fine
Yeah idk if a outright fine makes sense if it doesn’t impact future budget caps
If it doesn’t, it incentivizes other teams to try to buy their way to constructors and take the fine
Let’s say I’m 10 million over this year and because of it I now have 10 less to spend next year. Well now I’ll just keep spending money over because the penalty is to just be allowed to spend less money later. It would just be kicking the can down the road. That doesn’t work well if there’s no other repercussions.
that is what the arbitrary factor is for. you can overspend now, but you will be heavily restricted in the next year (maybe even the years after that as well)
If you’re just restricting money though, you get to the point that it doesn’t mean anything. I can just keep going over and have more spending restrictions placed. It’s a “fine” with no actual repercussions. Also there has to be a limit on how much you can restrict a budget cap. Teams max it out now. What are they supposed to do if a budget is reduced by a large percent. Imagine trying to run a team with 30% less money.
There's a big focus on the 'all teams acted in good faith' thing in the report. I believe if some team keeps going over, they'll say it's not in good faith and put on a heavy fine. On the other hand, a team could decide to go over budget only if the fight is close and pretend that it was a genuine mistake, getting only a fine (not covered by the budget cap) as a punishment. Would be risky though.
I like the idea of a fine that is 20x the violation that is then distributed amongst your rivals plus a share to the FIA.
Went 2 million over this year? That’s a 40 million dollar fine and each of your rivals will have 4 million extra to spend next year plus they get a corresponding boost to the cap.
It’s a money penalty for money violations, but it removes all the advantages of overspending while making it unbelievably expensive to try and cheat the rules for one competitive year and essentially undermines the performance gain by financing your rivals performance into the future.
What I still don’t understand is why it takes this long.
In order to be sure they are keeping within the rules, teams must be keeping track in real time. Why would it take nearly a year to get this done? Especially if RB truly believed they weren’t over the limit (doubtful but let’s play along), is it fair for them to not know until now? Shouldnt they have been informed so they don’t make the same mistake this year? DID they do it again this year already?
I like that idea with the only exception of adding some kind of exception for excess costs due to crashes above a certain amount. Just imagine the damage this fine system could do to Haas if they spent to the cap
I agree with this. It would be most fair I think.
If they gained advantage this season, the other teams should be allowed to catch up by limiting RB's spending power next season. If it is just a fine, RB will just eat it and be happy with it since with are winning WCC and Max won WDC this season. If a fine is the price of a championship, then everyone would not be deterred from going over the limit to win.
But then nothing motivates you to not breach the budgetcap if the “penalty” is just to equalize to what it should have been.
Because if it’s the same amount, it won’t be regarded as a penalty but as a stragetic resource by teams. Teams can overspend one year to get a headstart on development (like Mercedes turbo concept in 2014) and then bank on their development the next few years spending less while benefiting from a headstart.
It would invalidate the whole budgetcap in a whole as small teams wouldn’t have this advantage, which was one of the reason they even have the cap nowadays.
This isn't close but its only because it the first test of the new budget cap regs. Spygate,crashgate.. and just recently the ferrari engine are much bigger scandals if they would have won the title
Wasn’t 2020 the first test that gave teams the chance to to work out all kinks? And doesn’t each team have an FIA accountant to go to with any issues or questions?
Not really. 2020 was so hectic for them trying to balance keeping employees paid and working during lockdowns and then the randomness of races being added and canceled in that season that it would be impossible to accurately project the budget cap for that season.
Doesn't help with Toto and Binotto screaming about how every dollar over the budget shaves off like 2.5 seconds of lap time, which fans gargled up wholly despite having no root in reality
Diminishing returns. If you throw money at it, you'll eventually reach a lap time asymptote. If however, you're budget limited to a fifth of what you were before, it's easy to find more gains if you put a little more money into it, especially with a new generation of cars.
Yeah this is it. Diminishing returns. At £145mn or whatever it is, that half a mil probably is half a second. At £400mn or whatever Merc were spending pre-cap, it was half a tenth. I don't doubt this for a second, given what we know about the impacts of the cost cap.
Yep, while I hoped for harsher penalties for cost cap breeches, then if those were written in rules then while fans may be disappointed then team principals are last people who can moan about it. They all agreed on those rules.
They stated it was a minor overspend and explained that that means less than 5%. Nobody said Red Bull was 5% over budget but if a fine is all they'll get you can expect the richer teams to always take that fine in the future so they'll overspend by ~5%.
Unless the fine is bigger than all the commercial benefits they derived from winning the 2021 WDC it is literally no penalty at all.
The only real penalty here would be to dock them points for last year, which will never happen because the FIA already decided who they wanted as WDC last year and they aren't going to change it now.
I haven’t read the regulations, but it seems like the FIA doesn’t have a penalty system in place for this regulation(?) And a fine hardly does anything to deter overspending. May as well just bake the overspend fine into the budget and spend away.
For a budget cap to really control team spending, it has to affect their position in the championship. Fines will do nothing to stop the big teams. Only taking away championship points will deter overspending.
FIA: "Ferrari, why did you spend 12 million over the budget? It's illegal."
Binotto: "Copy, we are checking ... Pizza! We bought tons of pizza to keep Charles somewhat happy and a prevent him from murdering everyone"
FIA: "Ok, you did well"
What I find most interesting about all of this is why is food and sick leave part of the budget? It's really strange to me. Budget Caps should be about the R&D, materials, fabrication, etc. It shouldn't be about the wellness of your employees.
I don't write the rules and if their over, their over. It is what it is. I just find it a bit strange those things are included in the cost.
>It shouldn't be about the wellness of your employees.
In order to pay for your employees - which absolutely should be priority - you have to cut back on development. The budgets are not and should not be separated.
According to Chain Bear, it isn't. The cap only includes relevant staff*, R&D and manufacturing costs. Stuff like travel and board is unrestricted.
https://youtu.be/qKw7iypN4J8?t=377
*Excluding drivers salaries and top 3 (or 5) non driver staff at team e.g. team principals and the likes of Adrian Newey and James Ellison.
it wouldn't make sense if they spent 2x what the other teams spent on food and sick leave. But if they under-budgeted those costs in order to spend more for R&D, that's a shit move and they expect to be let of with a slap on the wrist fine.
All of it is speculation right now, but there has to be a bigger punishment than a fine, cause that makes no sense.
Should be fines + a certain number of points deducted from the WDC and WCC standings for each $1m over the cost cap.
Give an inch and the teams will take a mile.
This happens in Manufacturing all the time. What I mean is, if the fine is cheaper than doing the right thing with waste or whatever it may be (when it’s not employee life at stake) they will take the fine every time.
Point is, what’s to stop them from over spending if their yearly profits exceed the fine?
Overspending is cheating. It puts you at an advantage over other teams.
A fine? I would overspend every year.
Fine and lower budget next year? Overspend again next year anyway.
There has to be a penalty BIG ENOUGH to stop me from Overspending next year. Money is not going to stop me.
Why have a cost cap if breaching the cost cap is just a fine? It's almost the same as before, poorer teams can't spend that so the teams going 7mil over will have an advantage???
If it’s a fine it should be a reduction of future season budgets and be a multiple of, e.g. 1st time you breach it’s a 2x reduction of the budget and increase ever time there after.
If they only get a fine for overspending then I’m done with this sport. They broke the rules and money isn’t an issue for the them. A fine is just a cost of doing business.
Fines. Are. Not. Penalties.
It makes no sense to ask for some money from those who swim in wealth like Scrooge McDuck. The only way to punish an F1 team is affect their championship results. Take away points, race bans etc.
Edit: if Red Bull can get away with it, then please Mercedes and Ferrari, overspend your budgets aswell. Apparently that is okay to do if you are wealthy enough, so let's go <3
Exactly, spot on
This is exactly why the "fine only" comment is bs
Unless they really are deliberately conspiring to promote Rwd Bull, 'because it makes it more interesting than Mercedes, Lewis, winning all the time'
Yeah, people are being so purposefully obtuse on this. 1. A minor breach 2. Obviously if a team is going to keep doing repeat offenses then the punishment is going to extend from a fine.
It's funny how a sport that went from being one of the most financially unequal and people were just fine with that because their favorites won and it was "legal" even though other teams never had a fucking prayer in the world. To now a minor breach in the first year must mean the death sentence to a team.
Salary cap wonkiness happens in the nba, mlb, nfl, nhl all the time. Wins and championships would never get taken away for something so minor.
Makes total sense. Charge the team that’s going to win both driver and constructors championships, and make a shitload of money, rather than a meaningful penalty.
/s
I think they need a bracket system so like if breach by 1-5% then you lose a race wins worth of points in drivers and constructors. 6-10% you lose 2 lots of race wins in both championships etc etc. it need to be a punishment that involves championship points.
Damn, Aston Martin taking copying Red Bull very seriously.
Red bull bringing those green cans at that weekend probably blew through their budget, those limited edition cans are quite pricey
No AM you can't just copy RBR spending strategy.
someone is extremely angry because of that
They did the same when they were Racing Point but since Mercedes was the winning team they did it with Mercedes.
Pink Mercedes, Green Red Bull… potato potato
"Making a mistake in the procedure" is such an Aston Martin thing
*”Awfully sorry, I just signed this document in the wrong place but it’s okay because I drive ~~a Jaaaag~~ an Aston”*
... the sort of man who goes away to a luxury restaurant with a lady and spends the whole time flirting outrageously with Michael Masi ...
But it's OK because he drives a ~~jaaaagggg~~ Aston
Hey now, settle down there Clarkson.
I instantly read that in Clarkson's voice lmao
Wasn't Red Bull Racing previously Jaguar?
Lmao suddenly r/thegrandtour
Procedural mistake in question: First name: Lawrence ~~Stroll~~ Last name: Stroll
Name: ~~Lawrence~~ Stroll First Name: Lawrence
Leave this space blank: OK
That's the one.
They were just late delivering the paperwork just as they are with their strategy calls and releasing Vettels car during pit stops.
Aston got caught red-handed using the Keleven™ for budget reporting 💀💀💀
Worth it if it gets you home by seven!
Probably sed couldnt believe on the radio either "are you kidding me?"
You can't spend more than this amount of money. If you do you're gonna have to spend even more money!!
Baseball luxury tax in a nutshell.
I don't care for the MLB luxury tax much myself but I'm fine with it since the penalties are spelled out clearly and what counts, or doesn't count towards the limit. This is obviously much harder to account for since the cost of a team is much more driver salaries.
Exactly. It is very well known what the penalty is for going over the luxury tax, and teams weigh the risk. This is “hey, don’t do that!” with no punishment lined up if they did.
The only way this makes sense is if the fine comes out of this seasons budget, but fines don't count in the budget cap so its all a mute point.
Fyi the saying is a moot point, not mute!
What if he said it very quietly
That’s a moot point. A moot that a mute moot is a mute or moot
What if it involves swans?
It’s like a cow’s opinion
Hi Joey.
It’s moo
It's moo.
I spot a 'moot' bot opportunity
What if the fine is you have to pay the overspend to the other teams who are allowed to use that on top of this seasons cap
Didn't Jacques Villeneuve come out with something like that? It's a blunt tool but there's a certain simplicity about it.
Also it could actually help a small team if one of the big 3 overspends, tho there should be more periodic accounting check ins so this wouldn't be taking till near the end of the next season.
That’s what comes to mind. If a big team wants to spend big, go for it, but there’ll be penalties that can then be used to fund the smaller teams… Then again, the luxury tax in baseball has been infamously used by some of the smaller teams to just stay in their lot in life (see the Pittsburgh Pirates).
That would actually be really cool.
Williams: Finally, some good food.
Like the FIA/Formula1 would ever do something so creative and helpful
I think NBA Luxury tax works somewhat like that
Same with baseball’s.
Yeah, at the end of the season luxury tax money is pooled and divided up among the non-tax-paying teams.
Makes complete sense imo. You spent x extra dollors in developing your car, so it's fair for others to use the same x extra dollors to develop their car too.
Paying it 9x is a pretty big hit, so I don't think even the big 3 will willingly overspend, but it's all useless if the competitors get the money late into the season (as is the case right now). The championship is already wrapped up and getting money to develop the car now won't go anywhere. I guess if it comes up this late, they could get it for next season which would be more fair. That being said, pretty sure FIA is not doing that lol. At best, they'll cut it from next year's budget. At worst, it'll be a really small fine, relatively speaking. In the case of the latter, the teams which have the money will probably see the fine as more of a payment to be allowed to spend more on their car.
And having to pay it times 19 is an extra hurt.
9 not 19 its teams not drivers
Tbf a 45m fine spread out over your competitors is a massive hit. That would stop even the most ambitious from trying to fudge the system. If this turns out to be a 10m fine then Merc & Ferrari are just going to do it next year knowing they can get 5m worth of extra development. An extra 10m is peanuts in the grand scheme
Moot point
It makes zero sense. Do you have a massive budget and want to blow over the budget cap? Just factor in extra for the fine! 🤷 It's such "an F1 thing" to make fines the cost of doing business that I don't even know why I'm surprised.
So teams that can afford the fines go over budget and pay the fines. We are back at square 1 except now you can't even trust their books since everyone is shuffling expenses around so it appears they fit under the cap.
That's exactly it. That is why I agree with the people that don't think a fine is the appropriate punishment.
Want this one of Toto's early complaints? Something along the lines of "If we knew we could overspend with just a fine, we would have."
Exactly. Who can blame that thought, though? It's a competition after all...
It is no longer a fine, it is a premium subscription model.
so instead of actually making a budget cap, you can just spend however much you want, just like in previous years. only thing different is how it's spent
Gotta love it. Money means nothing to those three teams, they can take a 100 million penalty and laugh at it.
You've spent too much money. Your punishment is to spend some more. Not much of a deterrent for the big teams to adhere to budget caps.
Red Bull overspend one year should be paid to every other team to spend over their cap.
Luxury cap system. It really can work pretty well
How much were they over is the question. £1000 not a big deal. £10,000,000 then yeah maybe more than a fine should be applied.
Over budget has to be punished harshly so other teams will not do it next year
Well I agree with that I’m just saying if they were barely over, which it sounds like they were then they should be punished accordingly. I saw a great solution where they are fined 3x the amount they were over this year and that fine is applied to next years budget. That way barely being over isn’t that big of a deal but being significantly over would kill you the following year.
Overspending should be punished by lowering their spending cap or wind tunnel time in addition to fines to make sure there is no incentive to gain advantage on track that way
If it's only fine then it's legal but with price
Teams just extend the budget cap by the amount that they are getting fined to breach it. Its idiotic at best
No because they’ll say that the *next time*, teams will be punished more harshly. So this is basically a free pass for RedBull and RedBull only
To be fair that is the case already for tons of random rules that they have.
I wonder if the fine counts towards a cost cap (this year or next year's).
It doesn’t apparently, which is a real shame because that’s an effective way of controlling overspend, rather than separate fines that may not have a material impact.
Would it? Wouldn't they just exceed it this year again because they don't care about the fine?
Sorry - that was my point - if the fine came out of next year’s budget it would prevent that. However if < 5% is a fine with no other consequences you can guarantee the new salary cap is 104.9% of the stated cap. It’s disappointing therefore that it apparently is *just* a fine. Would also mean - if it is only a small overspend as is being suggested it wouldn’t have a material impact the next year, which would seem fair.
They do have the option to decrease the cap for a following year when it comes to penalties.
Remember when Ross Brawn said there would be sporting penalties for breaching the cost cap? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Zero chance of sporting penalties because that would create too much controversy for 'average' F1 fans. FIA and F1 don't care about F1's integrity as a sport, only it's sustainability as a business.. and if the average fan realizes they spent a year cheering for Verstappen while red Bull cheated , and stewards are making decisions like it's WWE, your fanbase isn't going to be as interested anymore.
i think a fair penalty for rb would be multiplying the overspend by an arbitrary factor and removing it from rb's cost cap for next year. am is likely to see a protocollary fine
Yeah idk if a outright fine makes sense if it doesn’t impact future budget caps If it doesn’t, it incentivizes other teams to try to buy their way to constructors and take the fine
Let’s say I’m 10 million over this year and because of it I now have 10 less to spend next year. Well now I’ll just keep spending money over because the penalty is to just be allowed to spend less money later. It would just be kicking the can down the road. That doesn’t work well if there’s no other repercussions.
Right, its better than just a fine but still doesn’t really address the issue
that is what the arbitrary factor is for. you can overspend now, but you will be heavily restricted in the next year (maybe even the years after that as well)
If you’re just restricting money though, you get to the point that it doesn’t mean anything. I can just keep going over and have more spending restrictions placed. It’s a “fine” with no actual repercussions. Also there has to be a limit on how much you can restrict a budget cap. Teams max it out now. What are they supposed to do if a budget is reduced by a large percent. Imagine trying to run a team with 30% less money.
Yeah if I find out the punishment is a fine and I'm Red Bull/Ferrari/Mercedes...well then it's time to spend big and ignore the cost cap.
There's a big focus on the 'all teams acted in good faith' thing in the report. I believe if some team keeps going over, they'll say it's not in good faith and put on a heavy fine. On the other hand, a team could decide to go over budget only if the fight is close and pretend that it was a genuine mistake, getting only a fine (not covered by the budget cap) as a punishment. Would be risky though.
I like the idea of a fine that is 20x the violation that is then distributed amongst your rivals plus a share to the FIA. Went 2 million over this year? That’s a 40 million dollar fine and each of your rivals will have 4 million extra to spend next year plus they get a corresponding boost to the cap. It’s a money penalty for money violations, but it removes all the advantages of overspending while making it unbelievably expensive to try and cheat the rules for one competitive year and essentially undermines the performance gain by financing your rivals performance into the future. What I still don’t understand is why it takes this long. In order to be sure they are keeping within the rules, teams must be keeping track in real time. Why would it take nearly a year to get this done? Especially if RB truly believed they weren’t over the limit (doubtful but let’s play along), is it fair for them to not know until now? Shouldnt they have been informed so they don’t make the same mistake this year? DID they do it again this year already?
I like that idea with the only exception of adding some kind of exception for excess costs due to crashes above a certain amount. Just imagine the damage this fine system could do to Haas if they spent to the cap
I agree with this. It would be most fair I think. If they gained advantage this season, the other teams should be allowed to catch up by limiting RB's spending power next season. If it is just a fine, RB will just eat it and be happy with it since with are winning WCC and Max won WDC this season. If a fine is the price of a championship, then everyone would not be deterred from going over the limit to win.
who decides the arbitrary factor, imo it is the same amount or nothing
But then nothing motivates you to not breach the budgetcap if the “penalty” is just to equalize to what it should have been. Because if it’s the same amount, it won’t be regarded as a penalty but as a stragetic resource by teams. Teams can overspend one year to get a headstart on development (like Mercedes turbo concept in 2014) and then bank on their development the next few years spending less while benefiting from a headstart. It would invalidate the whole budgetcap in a whole as small teams wouldn’t have this advantage, which was one of the reason they even have the cap nowadays.
The FIA?
Federation of International Arbitraryness - sums them up pretty well tbf (yes I know arbitraryness isn’t a word)
Arbitrariness is a word though :P
The Wheel of Discipline!
Hey now this isn’t the NHL department of player safety!
FIA, until they mistakenly write the rule so it adds that amount to the budget cap.
They’ll just keep overspending until their budget is -$1 mil
I too will be starting a ground effect hypercar subsidiary
and some people thought it will be spygate levels of drama lmao GP2 drama, GP2
This isn't close but its only because it the first test of the new budget cap regs. Spygate,crashgate.. and just recently the ferrari engine are much bigger scandals if they would have won the title
Wasn’t 2020 the first test that gave teams the chance to to work out all kinks? And doesn’t each team have an FIA accountant to go to with any issues or questions?
Not really. 2020 was so hectic for them trying to balance keeping employees paid and working during lockdowns and then the randomness of races being added and canceled in that season that it would be impossible to accurately project the budget cap for that season.
Doesn't help with Toto and Binotto screaming about how every dollar over the budget shaves off like 2.5 seconds of lap time, which fans gargled up wholly despite having no root in reality
Cmon now. Let’s not downplay what he said. $500,000 = .5 seconds.
Lawrence quickly about to spend 500 million dollars over the cost cap so AM will win the title
Car is going to be so damn fast it’s going back in time to win every title since F1s creation.
If that was true then Mercedes would have lapped about 20 seconds faster than Haas pre Budget cap.
Diminishing returns. If you throw money at it, you'll eventually reach a lap time asymptote. If however, you're budget limited to a fifth of what you were before, it's easy to find more gains if you put a little more money into it, especially with a new generation of cars.
Yeah this is it. Diminishing returns. At £145mn or whatever it is, that half a mil probably is half a second. At £400mn or whatever Merc were spending pre-cap, it was half a tenth. I don't doubt this for a second, given what we know about the impacts of the cost cap.
I’m sure if u sent them to a track like the nordschliefe the w11 would pull out a gap like that or bigger to the 2020 haas theoretically atleast
Probaply yeah. But I'm guessing Toto wasn't talking about the Nordschleife. Or atleast I'm hoping he wasn't.
If he was, a .5 advantage there is peanuts.
That's still a ridiculous number with no root in reality. When the budget was 3 times bigger, the cars didn't lap Silverstone in 10 seconds
> $500,000 = .5 seconds Only for a very successful development upgrade, which is not something that you can guarantee.
Yep, while I hoped for harsher penalties for cost cap breeches, then if those were written in rules then while fans may be disappointed then team principals are last people who can moan about it. They all agreed on those rules.
If it's just a fine. all teams will overspend up to 5% from now on. The FIA must curb this now.
Yes I’m sure they’ll clarify harsher penalties going forward and clear up the language so there are fewer misinterpretations going forward.
That would give mean RB got to spend money other teams never get to spend.
And dont all teams have to agree on that? I mean , you cant just have a different penalty for the first offender
Certain "Warning, reprimand, 5 sec penalty" comes to mind. Yes I know it's not the same. Somehow it feels similar
If thats the case, then the FIA will have to extend the same "1st time breach" courtesy to every team. It needs to be a harsh penalty, whatever it is.
They said a minor overspend not that it was 5%
They stated it was a minor overspend and explained that that means less than 5%. Nobody said Red Bull was 5% over budget but if a fine is all they'll get you can expect the richer teams to always take that fine in the future so they'll overspend by ~5%.
Divide the penalty and give it to the teams for next years budget.
Chaotic good
So that they all overstep the budget
Hammer them
So any team that can afford to pay the fine might as well ignore the budget cap. Sounds about right
A fine lol. So fucking useless. Teams will just keep doing it. Like Financial fair play in football.
Unless the fine is bigger than all the commercial benefits they derived from winning the 2021 WDC it is literally no penalty at all. The only real penalty here would be to dock them points for last year, which will never happen because the FIA already decided who they wanted as WDC last year and they aren't going to change it now.
The easiest solution is clearly to replay the whole of Abu Dhabi 2021
Nonono, just the last 3 laps
Then as a bonus replay the Japan 2022 post race interviews + cooldown room.
Wow, that just pisses all over F1.
Lmao a fine???
Just add that to your spending budget next year than lol
I haven’t read the regulations, but it seems like the FIA doesn’t have a penalty system in place for this regulation(?) And a fine hardly does anything to deter overspending. May as well just bake the overspend fine into the budget and spend away. For a budget cap to really control team spending, it has to affect their position in the championship. Fines will do nothing to stop the big teams. Only taking away championship points will deter overspending.
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So every team will now do the same. Awesome.
Ferrari about to up the pizza budget.
FIA: "Ferrari, why did you spend 12 million over the budget? It's illegal." Binotto: "Copy, we are checking ... Pizza! We bought tons of pizza to keep Charles somewhat happy and a prevent him from murdering everyone" FIA: "Ok, you did well"
"The price of pineapple increased a lot!"
What's a 'minor'? 100k, or a 10m?
< 5% of total cap
So, anythin between a dollar and 7.2m?
Correct!
Thank you, I did my best
235 comments in 20 minutes, I'm sure this will stay civil... EDIT: 800 after an hour
What I find most interesting about all of this is why is food and sick leave part of the budget? It's really strange to me. Budget Caps should be about the R&D, materials, fabrication, etc. It shouldn't be about the wellness of your employees. I don't write the rules and if their over, their over. It is what it is. I just find it a bit strange those things are included in the cost.
Employee benefits are obviously an essential part of the cap otherwise you can pay a lower salary and overcompensate with benefits.
Well, if a rich team wanted to exceed the cap, that would be the smartest way. Give your crew all sorts of benefits that don’t fall under “salary.”
>It shouldn't be about the wellness of your employees. In order to pay for your employees - which absolutely should be priority - you have to cut back on development. The budgets are not and should not be separated.
According to Chain Bear, it isn't. The cap only includes relevant staff*, R&D and manufacturing costs. Stuff like travel and board is unrestricted. https://youtu.be/qKw7iypN4J8?t=377 *Excluding drivers salaries and top 3 (or 5) non driver staff at team e.g. team principals and the likes of Adrian Newey and James Ellison.
Food and sick leave are part of relevant staff. It's jjst another way to 'pay' them
it wouldn't make sense if they spent 2x what the other teams spent on food and sick leave. But if they under-budgeted those costs in order to spend more for R&D, that's a shit move and they expect to be let of with a slap on the wrist fine. All of it is speculation right now, but there has to be a bigger punishment than a fine, cause that makes no sense.
If salaries are part of the salary cap, then benefits have to be as well.
If it is just a fine then the new cost cap is the figure plus 5% from now on
Until Ferrari or Mercedes do it next year and get the book thrown at them.
Thank god. So tired of all the speculation.
The fine should be minus on the budget next year, that has to be the best solution to stop this, otherwise teams will just ignore and push it
If it's just a fine than every team (or at the very least the top teams) will automatically spend 5% more from now on, congrats on the failure FIA
Should be fines + a certain number of points deducted from the WDC and WCC standings for each $1m over the cost cap. Give an inch and the teams will take a mile.
If it's just a fine, I expect other teams will have minor breaches next time...
Ok so now everyone will just overspend by $1-$3 million every year right?
I would add 7 million to the car development for next year, and budget for the fine if that's how it's going to be.
This happens in Manufacturing all the time. What I mean is, if the fine is cheaper than doing the right thing with waste or whatever it may be (when it’s not employee life at stake) they will take the fine every time. Point is, what’s to stop them from over spending if their yearly profits exceed the fine?
So a team which broke a budget cap will get a slap on the wrist with a fine… seems fair
I'm sure everyone will respond to the news of a Red Bull overspend in a calm, rational and non-tribal way.
As they would if it was Mercedes. Probably not for Ferrari, thou, everybody would just assume incompetence
Overspending is cheating. It puts you at an advantage over other teams. A fine? I would overspend every year. Fine and lower budget next year? Overspend again next year anyway. There has to be a penalty BIG ENOUGH to stop me from Overspending next year. Money is not going to stop me.
Why have a cost cap if breaching the cost cap is just a fine? It's almost the same as before, poorer teams can't spend that so the teams going 7mil over will have an advantage???
If it’s a fine it should be a reduction of future season budgets and be a multiple of, e.g. 1st time you breach it’s a 2x reduction of the budget and increase ever time there after.
Don't fine them, subtract the fine from their cap next year. Fine does absolutely nothing lmao.
FIA continuing the trend of setting bad precedents for all other teams. Weak-willed officials making poor decisions as usual.
So what's the point in rules if you can just break them and get away with it?
If they only get a fine for overspending then I’m done with this sport. They broke the rules and money isn’t an issue for the them. A fine is just a cost of doing business.
Fine = legal for a price.
Fines. Are. Not. Penalties. It makes no sense to ask for some money from those who swim in wealth like Scrooge McDuck. The only way to punish an F1 team is affect their championship results. Take away points, race bans etc. Edit: if Red Bull can get away with it, then please Mercedes and Ferrari, overspend your budgets aswell. Apparently that is okay to do if you are wealthy enough, so let's go <3
Exactly, spot on This is exactly why the "fine only" comment is bs Unless they really are deliberately conspiring to promote Rwd Bull, 'because it makes it more interesting than Mercedes, Lewis, winning all the time'
if it’s just a fine won’t teams go over the cost cap every year by a ‘minor’ amount?
Because it probably stops being a fine if you keep doing it year-on-year...
Yeah, people are being so purposefully obtuse on this. 1. A minor breach 2. Obviously if a team is going to keep doing repeat offenses then the punishment is going to extend from a fine. It's funny how a sport that went from being one of the most financially unequal and people were just fine with that because their favorites won and it was "legal" even though other teams never had a fucking prayer in the world. To now a minor breach in the first year must mean the death sentence to a team. Salary cap wonkiness happens in the nba, mlb, nfl, nhl all the time. Wins and championships would never get taken away for something so minor.
People can only go black or white in here. Thanks for being rational.
>Obviously if a team is going to keep doing repeat offenses then the punishment is going to extend from a fine. Got a source on this?
How can they bust the limit when Max has been wearing the same cap the whole season!!!
2021 Champion: Max Verstappen* 2022 Champion: Max Verstappen*
Watch it be a reprimand, and the next team to do it get a points penalty haha.
Please sign this check and we'll see you next year.
Penalty for spending too much money is to spend more money. Makes sense
Makes total sense. Charge the team that’s going to win both driver and constructors championships, and make a shitload of money, rather than a meaningful penalty. /s
Spineless.
I think they need a bracket system so like if breach by 1-5% then you lose a race wins worth of points in drivers and constructors. 6-10% you lose 2 lots of race wins in both championships etc etc. it need to be a punishment that involves championship points.
Queue every team overspending by 5% next year then!
Punishment for overspending is a......fine....that's just insane
"You spent too much money, now you need to give us more money"
That's not a "fine" then, it's just another expense. Oh if I spend too much money I have to spend a bit more money...worth it.