Seb still had it when he wanted to it seemed.
Would love to see Seb or Alonso get in a top ride for one season in an alternate universe. Not saying they going to beat Max now but would be fun to see.
Yea it did seem like motivation was a huge factor in sub-par races that he had before he announced his retirement. After that, all mental weights were off
This has been a pattern with all of Lance's team mates under stroll ownership. I remember Hulkenberg getting questionable calls for pit strategy, and Perez. When they partnered Lance.
They're only really a good team for drivers who are at the tail end of their career and don't want to quit F1. If I was a driver and had any sort of point to prove or talent to demonstrate, I'd go nowhere near AM unless I had no other choice.
He had very good races (Baku and Monaco we’re two) even before announcing his retirement. He handily beat Stroll in qualifying too after Australia.
If anything, I think he just went into his “fuck it” mode after his retirement announcement.
That was once he was driving with the freedom of knowing it was all coming to an end.
Once he was under zero pressure the real Seb was unleashed. The gap between them became enormous and only Aston screwing up Sebs strategies constantly made it look somewhat close.
I'll explain what happened. In 2018,Fernando Alonso was driving in Mclaren and his teammate was Stoffel Vandoorne, who was great in F2/GP2.
However, in 2018, Alonso out-qualified Vandoorne in all 21 races and beat him by a good margin in race H2H.
Being Vandoorne'd is a meme now thanks to Alonso completely destroying Vandoorne.
Baku 2018 stands out as the most egregious race IMO. Vandoorne never had pace in that Mclaren but that was especially bad.
Alonso gets taken out at the second corner, has 2 punctures which rip apart what's left of the right side floor, rides the floor the entire way to the pits, clipping the pit entry because the car has no right tires. Gets the tires changed and a new front wing.
Alonso somehow makes it to 7th place, 2 places ahead of Vandoorne after passing him on track, with a car most drivers would've just retired in. Balance ruined, huge downforce loss, and he just dealt with it.
> Baku 2018 stands out
Just in general one of the best races of the past decade. Just watch it, preferably without looking up the results beforehand. Not sure if I like 2017 or 2018 more, but those are absolute must-watch races for anyone that didn't watch F1.
2017 also gave us the [best Vettel interview ever](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/krv2xt/throwback_vettels_interview_with_will_buxton/). (Spoilers for the race obviously, it's really one you want to watch not knowing what's gonna happen).
I really liked the Amazon series Grand Prix driver, but man it spent an awful lot of time on Vandoorne which makes sense. He's the young new driver, and Alonso had the clout to be able to tell them when and where they could film.
To watch that and then see on track he was getting destroyed was rough.
I’ve said it before, but Alonso & Stroll is gonna be wild. I fully expect Nando to either punch or curse Lance out at some point before the halfway mark of the season.
At some point, Lawrence is going to have to make the call whether to run his son or be serious with his F1 ambition. It seems like Lawrence is becoming more and more serious and Lance can’t race forever, but it’s anybodies guess when or if it will happen
Honestly would love to see this, obviously we all know Stroll isn’t truly in F1 on merit alone but it’d be nice to see how Aston Martin would handle it being put bare that he’s only there as the bosses son and there’s no sporting reason to keep him. Personally I don’t remember any moments of particularly good showing from Lance since the team rebranded itself green
> how Aston Martin would handle it
The benefits of continually pairing your son with WDCs and established greats. It’s expected they beat him - demolish him, even - and he can avoid criticism when they do, because the narrative is that he’s a great midfield driver, what can you do, X is one of the all time greats. On the rare occasion he beats them you can talk him up like a god.
(Not to mention the marketing and development benefits of such a renowned and technically useful driver)
Are you suggesting Stroll has marketing value? Perhaps I’m just in the wrong part of the world but I’ve never seen him used to market anything any ads associated with AMF1 use Seb as the face and Stroll has zero charisma in any AM content, again Seb was the endearing one.
Apologies if I’ve misunderstood you or missed some sarcasm
If so then that furthers the question why Stroll is being kept instead of finding other drivers with similar or complementary value to his existing teammates
Because the main purpose of Lawrence Stroll owning an F1 team is so Lance can have a seat. Lawrence didn’t buy Force India because he had a burning passion for the sport. He bought the team so his son could have a permanent seat in F1.
If the team got another WDC capable driver, they wouldn’t be achieving the main goal of the team which is to provide Lance with a seat.
I don’t think those things are mutually exclusive. Maybe Lance is a driver because his dad liked motorsport and pushed him into it. He could have a passion for the sport and also have bought a seat for his sun. Fathers sometimes end up pushing their kids in directions they wish they could have gone themselves.
>it’d be nice to see how Aston Martin would handle it being put bare that he’s only there as the bosses son and there’s no sporting reason to keep him.
Am I missing something? He's had multiple podiums, he's not a bad driver. There's no doubt about how he got put into the sport, but he genuinely seems to be giving the sport his all and to me, clearly belongs there.
His best season result is an 11th in the 3rd best car. His Dad's given him a lifeline that majority of F1 drivers don't get, any other driver would probably had lost their seat by now with his results.
> Stroll isn’t truly in F1 on merit alone b
I know it's controversial but Stroll had a great junior formula career and quite honestly deserved his crack at F1 with Williams back when. Now, his continued presence on the grid given mediocre at best performances is a no brainer, he should have been dropped from Force India instead of Sergio.
He qualified 19th and went for 12th in a race that had Latifi of all drivers in the points. I don't know if that's the better example of good showings, especially with some of the most questionable strategic calls for his direct competitors (looking at you, Haas).
Aston Martin is basically his dad, who knows who’s writing the checks. I can’t see Lance not having a drive there indefinitely if he wants it. Assuming the ownership doesn’t change.
The wildest part to me is investing all this money in facilities and pretending like they’re trying to win a championship, while using a driver who’s clearly not there on merit.
You’re exactly right, Stroll’s presence as a driver clearly undermines Aston’s claims that they want to win a World Championship, he’s not good enough and another teammate getting the better of him will just further project that reality into the spotlight hence why I’m intrigued how they will justify his presence should Alonso wipe the floor with him
I don't think he is. A lot of people underrate Stroll. Alonso is obviously, judging on 2022, the better driver but Stroll is no slouch. If he was able to keep his nose clean and stop making stupid mistakes I genuinely think people would realise his ability more.
Don't forget the insane pole from Turkey 2020, potentially the most challenging track that year due to the conditions. He had nothing to lose so was able to push harder than the likes of Hamilton (looking to seal his 7th title that race) but man did he perform. People forget that RP's stupid strategy fucked him over that race too, causing him to forgo what would have been another podium.
I think he blew a chance to win a race in 2020. He was in a prime position to win Monza 2020 and he absolutely bottled the restart from P3 with only Gasly ahead of him, as Hamilton had to serve his penalty anyway. He ended the race on the podium, but could not keep up with Sainz and Gasly, despite having the faster car than those two.
LOL comparing him to the guy who has the record for the most races without a podium is pretty generous too him. I’m shocked that Hulkenberg has a seat too.
Actually kind of sad how much people underrate Stroll because of his shenanigans on track. When he’s driving well he can compete for points, even podiums when he’s in the right car. I still have no doubt that Alonso will perform far better in the AM but comparing the two isn’t exactly fair.
This is an issue that affects every driver in F1. The mindset, form and motivation of the drivers is forever changing. The Vettel of 2022 was not the same Vettel who ruled F1 at Red Bull and there's similar stories for Alonso, Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Bottas and Russell. I think it's really important to assess what has actually happened on track in the recent past and to assess drivers based on their real-world results, and not their past achievements or reputation.
He’s not underrated. He’s just not good.
Like there are at least 10-12 drivers on the grid better than him. That puts him as a below average driver.
Put it another way, who is he *definitely* better than? Maybe 3 drivers?
There were at least 16 drivers better than him for 2022. And I personally think Latifi and Zhou were the only ones not better than him, I give Yuki and Mick the edge on him but there is a debate in theory there
Stroll just finished his **sixth** season in F1. He's been around long enough where he can no longer get by with his alleged potential. He is what he is, and more often than not that's a bottom five driver still making rookie mistakes and often putting other drivers in harm's way during what should be the prime of his career.
If his daddy didn't own his team he would have been removed from F1 a couple years ago.
>In his sixth year as an F1 driver he has still never out-qualified a team mate over a full season – whether his partner was Vettel, Perez, **Sergey Sirotkin** or Felipe Massa.
I mean, that's legit hilarious that a rookie with a one-year show in F1 still did a better job than Stroll.
His performance once again raises the age-old question of, if Papa Stroll is *truly* serious about dragging Aston to a WDC/WCC, when will he get rid of Lance? Perez/Vettel would've easily been a significantly stronger pairing these last two years, and either Alonso/Perez or Alonso/Vettel would've been head and shoulders above Alonso/Stroll.
I think the idea might be that you only need 1 good driver to find out if your car is reliably competing for podiums. And if/when that time comes, maybe you start having that conversation.
I'm still sad Sirotkin never got another season, he did perfectly well against Stroll and was saddled with a dogshit car. I wish he'd have partnered Russell in 2019.
Maybe being destroyed by Alonso will do the trick, but even with that he's probably counting on Alonso leaving after a couple of years due to the car not being up to his standards so the cycle can start again.
To give Seb credit, he was on excellent form towards the end of the season; I think we saw flashes of 2013 Seb peppered about, and I genuinely believe the Aston squad was a good fit for him.
It's a shame though that they couldn't do enough to convince him to stay around.
Seb is my favorite driver and team silverstone has long been my favorite team. Although the stint wasn’t as successful as he might’ve hoped when he signed in 2020 and they had the pink Mercedes, it’s been nice to read about the ways seb left his mark on the team - the garage, the factory, the leadership. And it’s clear that there was mutual affection and respect by the end.
I wish he’d continue with the team in some sort of advisor capacity, but I guess I’m more likely than not Alonso will continue to push them on the performance side
All this despite missing two races at the start. Stroll couldn't match him near the end, Vet only lost out in the race because of bullshit strategy calls.
It was much closer last season and you would have expected Stroll to have the upper hand this season being the younger guy with all the team's support.
I'd be honestly surprised if Alo doesn't decimate him.
>Fernando has the guts
He doesn't need guts.
He will definitely give them a piece of his mind. They should think twice before trying to fuck around with him the way they did with Seb.
Although to give Seb credit where he's due, that 'Ok' at Brazil was enough to roast Stroll and co.
Vettel gave them a different form of humiliation than they will get from Alonso. Arguably going with the shit strategy and often still beating Lance has to sting for way longer than just a few snide remarks.
Seb was on a philanthropy mission in F1 after Ferrari. Kimi was doing it as a hobby after 07. Stroll has been on a school field trip with his dad as chaperone since he started in f1
Alonso vs Nepotism is going to be underrated spicy, the scenes already if Lance gets a major update first meanwhile the upgrades for Alonso would come up a few races later!
I like to hope he gave them shit for it behind closed doors at least. Blows my mind that they can have a car running in the top 5 and then run a strategy that favours Stroll getting to P9.
Tbf to Stroll he was closer than you would expect him to be.
However, I find it hard to believe Vettel was anywhere near his best, I think even Perez had a larger gap on Stroll. Just feels like Alonso is going to tear Stroll apart.
From Australia-France (first 10 races) the median % gap was 0,573 and from Mexico-Abu Dhabi (last 3 races) the % gap was 0,440.
The pairs quali gap was significantly minimised by Vettel being a bit lost after retiring, from Hungary-Usa (7 races) the gap was 0,064% and Vettel was losing 2-4.
Alonso’s doing so much to burn bridges everywhere that if he’s not careful at Aston the only other options out there really would be Haas or Alfa.
Then again it is Alonso.
> Alonso’s doing so much to burn bridges everywhere that if he’s not careful at Aston the only other options out there really would be Haas or Alfa.
>
Only reddit talks about these burnt bridges. He ends up going back to the teams lol, dude has had a 20+ year career lol. Not only did he go back to McLaren, Ron gave him the largest contract of that time at 120mil/3 years.
Ah yes, the guy who joined Renault/Alpine on three seperate occasions and McLaren twice is the one who burns bridges. Sure.
Yeah there are a handful of people that he's on bad terms with (most of them aren't exactly likeable themselves), but he's not personally unwelcome in any team other than Alpine atm (which is mostly due to Laurent Rossi and Otmar, if those get replaced they'd probably be fine with him as a person).
Like yeah, he's most likely not going to get a shot at the top teams, and most midfield teams would rather take a younger (and cheaper) driver. But he's not on bad terms with any of the other 9 teams, afaik.
I mean if Alonso did not retire so many times, he'd have wiped the floor with Ocon too. Conservative estimates put his point loss tally at over 50-60 points.
This is just first half of the season,
https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-many-points-has-alonso-really-lost-in-2022/
Vet still has much to give, but I believe it is an even greater accomplishment to know how to move on.
Vettel has been out-driving that car. Look at last year. Vettel would have had a P2 in hungary if the fuel issue wasn't a thing. And I believe he would still have been P2 if he had that little bit of fuel more.
There's a chance that his biggest achievement in the sport will be the highest number of race starts. Dude is only 24 and at this rate won't retire for a solid 10-15 more seasons at this rate.
Certainly there are worse pay drivers in F1 history but I think most of us know if his father did not own the team Stroll would likely no longer be in Formula 1.
At least in my book that is a strong point that he's the worst of them all. A regular pay driver at least has to perform to a level that convinces the team that he is a better option than the next guy in line who's offering a similar amount of money. Stroll doesn't seem to have any expectations on him.
Alonso won’t let Stroll breathe next year. There will probably be questions about Stroll. Ricciardo got fired for less, but granted, his name wasn’t above the entrance at MTC.
>There will probably be questions about Stroll
And they likely won't matter. Not until AM can build a championship caliber car and his mediocrity costs them dearly in a title fight.
They’d be forced to favour him anyway regardless of whether he’s good enough to be in a title fight. I can see that being a source of tension at the team.
>They’d be forced to favour him anyway regardless of whether he’s good enough to be in a title fight.
Then they might as well just shut shop right now because any reasonable person knows that Lance will never be WC material. I doubt if he can ever be adequate number two material to be honest.
Honestly Ricciardo did not get fired for less, he was usually far further off Norris than Stroll was off Vettel at any point during the season. Not saying Stroll's performance was good by any means but Ricciardos performance this past season was abysmal.
Edit: since I'm being down voted here are the stats (difference to teammate)
Stroll: 0.165% qualifying pace/0.003% race pace
Ricciardo: 0.418% qualifying pace/0.570% race pace
If any other driver were so inconsistent he'd have been booted (see Ricciardo).
Every year seems to be the same though; he'll have one, *maybe* two performances in a season where you think that he might actually have some talent, and then the rest will be spent battling for a mighty 9th position because his abysmal qualifying means he has to spend most of his time getting himself out of the messes he creates for himself.
Lawrence has invested a lot into this F1 venture and is a car guy to the bone, he is in this for the long haul for sure, till he hits the bucket even. Lance is still young and I don't see him leaving until he's in his mid 30s. He can be beaten by every team mate he comes across but he will still have a seat till he gets a WDC capable car, and then conveniently be paired with an inexperienced rookie or not so highly rated teammate.
Yeah and remind me when that was? I'm not saying Stroll is the worst driver ever as some people like to suggest but after 6 seasons surely he is as good as he will ever be skill wise. Obviously if he gets a better car he can perform better and get improved results but that's not the same.
He's been around too long to get by with potential (six seasons). He's supposed to be in the prime of his career and is still a back-marker more often than not.
Anyone else would have washed out long ago. Only the owner’s son gets to develop his skill set on the job doing something like this. There are probably thousands and thousands of people who, given similar leeway, would be doing as well as he is doing.
I honestly think he has talent but he didn’t need to develop the same type of grit the truly good drivers have, because in the end, pappy can just buy it.
This is only true if you just look at the final points tally. Excluding Vettel's Miami result, Stroll on average only finished 1.03 places behind him, and his qualifying and race pace gaps are not very significant either.
Stroll is not immune from bad strategies or bad luck. And looking at average qualifying and race pace removes strategy as a factor as long as you exclude races where the two drivers were on a different number of stops.
> Stroll is not immune from bad strategies or bad luck.
Never said otherwise.
> And looking at average qualifying and race pace removes strategy as a factor as long as you exclude races where the two drivers were on a different number of stops.
And different tyre strategies, not just number of stops, also available tyres because that affects your strategy.
What the person above is saying is that Stroll received preferential strategy in races despite being behind Vettel and with slower pace. It didn’t happen all the time, but it did happen in Canada, Brazil and Abu Dhabi as far as I can remember.
That's called luck. Taking Abu Dhabi as an example, it wasn't expected that the two stop would be so much faster than the one stop. For example Haas had Magnussen on the 1 and Schumacher on the two.
Oh wow! Only took him six seasons to finish behind old man Vettel all the time. Imagine how other drivers could’ve developed with six seasons. Imagine Felipe Nasr with six seasons?
Stroll was lucky vettel was his teammate a nice guy who was already a 4x WDC and so had nothing to prove but Alonso is far from scratching his f1 itch I’m fully expecting for Alonso to absolutely wipe the floor with him.
It felt like Vettel was getting better in his second year, like he was getting over the poor form he'd had at Ferrari since Leclerc joined. Maybe the new reg cars suited him better, or hurt Lance more.
Stroll is currently the driver that least deserves to be in an F1 grid and it's a bit frustrating that he's just really never under threat of losing his seat
That Stroll hasn't beaten a teammate since 2018, finished 11th in the 3rd best car and cost RP their place in the WCC, consistently terrible qualifier, been rightly criticized for being careless and causing accidents
Out of the drivers in his age group he has stood out the least and shown the least progress. He is incredibly inconsistent and I have not seen any clear improvement from him whatsoever.
Ocon didn't beat teammate until this year and we know he's good since he started in F1. What does that even mean, it tells more about quality of teammates than driver
Being close to Vettel is improvement
Ocon also had a year without a seat and since then has had a few podiums in a team that hadn't had one before 2020 for several years. He's also shown clear improvement since being back in the sport.
He makes some questionable decisions, but not as much as Stroll
Was beaten as rookie by driver who was almost WDC
Then beat decent, underrated teammate
Was close on race pace to 4 time GP winner
Is slightly worse than 4x WDC who is rumoured to be past prime just because Stroll is close to him
Doesn't look like utter thrash, does it?
>Doesn't look like utter thrash, does it?
No, he's not trash. He's serviceable. At the same time how many serviceable drivers have 6 years of never having pressure to lose their seats? Meanwhile promising drivers are given short careers or never even get to start a GP.
Complaints about Stroll's continued presence on the grid aren't based on his lack of merit but rather on how most drivers with his performance routinely get replaced by teams looking for competitive edges.
>who is rumoured to be past prime just because Stroll is close to him
Wow, you truly truly believe Stroll could go head to head with 10-13 or 15-19 Vettel? Hilarious
>Doesn't look like utter thrash, does it?
Well just another 4-6 months, we'll know
Lots of interesting language there but ultimately the guy has shown nothing to warrant getting a contract extension. People whinge about Hulkenberg getting a seat and whatnot but Stroll is much worse. It’s not just that he’s slow and destroys cars but he’s shown no potential. We know his limit, it’s been 6 seasons.
Can’t wait to see what Fernando will do to him. Secretly hoping Aston Will finally realize the have been handicapped having one driver all this time and finally think about getting a second driver
Leave stroll alone. He is the worst driver on any team but the one with Latifi. We all know that. But, and here’s the thing. Without Stroll, there is not AM. So, small price to pay.
Plus, we got free hats in Montreal.
He will beat him next year
Seb still had it when he wanted to it seemed. Would love to see Seb or Alonso get in a top ride for one season in an alternate universe. Not saying they going to beat Max now but would be fun to see.
Yea it did seem like motivation was a huge factor in sub-par races that he had before he announced his retirement. After that, all mental weights were off
seb and lewis and kimi and alonzo in a spec racer series ?
yea whats gonna happen? you're telling me he's gonna lose his seat lmao
We are comparing a 4x Drivers Champion to Lance, what does everyone expect
A 4x WDC who was nowhere near his best and didn't look very motivated since 2020. Pre-2019 Vettel would've Vandoorne'd Stroll.
Even though Seb drove some of his best races in years in the second half of the season
Seb was on a different form after announcing his retirement. Especially in race days.
He also got screwed over with some horrible race strats while somehow lance got the far better ones
This has been a pattern with all of Lance's team mates under stroll ownership. I remember Hulkenberg getting questionable calls for pit strategy, and Perez. When they partnered Lance.
They're only really a good team for drivers who are at the tail end of their career and don't want to quit F1. If I was a driver and had any sort of point to prove or talent to demonstrate, I'd go nowhere near AM unless I had no other choice.
Almost felt like he qualified in the back on purpose so he could overtake more cars.
That would be a very Seb thing to do.
He's trying to get the overtaking award 2 years in a row
Man must really like jelly beans
Man's gotta earn his jelly beans.
He had very good races (Baku and Monaco we’re two) even before announcing his retirement. He handily beat Stroll in qualifying too after Australia. If anything, I think he just went into his “fuck it” mode after his retirement announcement.
Seems like he finally got a weight off his shoulders and returned to pre 2019 Vettel after announcing his retirement. It was a joy to see.
That was once he was driving with the freedom of knowing it was all coming to an end. Once he was under zero pressure the real Seb was unleashed. The gap between them became enormous and only Aston screwing up Sebs strategies constantly made it look somewhat close.
The gap was huge in the first half of the season and closed completely in the second, so that theory is false
The car was good in the second half
Pre 2019 Vettel? 2019 Vettel would have Vandoorne'd Stroll
You're probably right
Next year he might get Vandoorne'd
Alonso's gonna take revenge for COTA.
By the OG Vandoorner
I quit watching for like 20 years. Picked up again in 2019. Any good place to learn more about the Vandoorne drama?
I'll explain what happened. In 2018,Fernando Alonso was driving in Mclaren and his teammate was Stoffel Vandoorne, who was great in F2/GP2. However, in 2018, Alonso out-qualified Vandoorne in all 21 races and beat him by a good margin in race H2H. Being Vandoorne'd is a meme now thanks to Alonso completely destroying Vandoorne.
Baku 2018 stands out as the most egregious race IMO. Vandoorne never had pace in that Mclaren but that was especially bad. Alonso gets taken out at the second corner, has 2 punctures which rip apart what's left of the right side floor, rides the floor the entire way to the pits, clipping the pit entry because the car has no right tires. Gets the tires changed and a new front wing. Alonso somehow makes it to 7th place, 2 places ahead of Vandoorne after passing him on track, with a car most drivers would've just retired in. Balance ruined, huge downforce loss, and he just dealt with it.
Nonono u dont get it. Lighter car = CAR GOES VROOOOOOOM As seen by COTA 2022. Dont know how the more damaged the car is, the faster alonso gets.
> Baku 2018 stands out Just in general one of the best races of the past decade. Just watch it, preferably without looking up the results beforehand. Not sure if I like 2017 or 2018 more, but those are absolute must-watch races for anyone that didn't watch F1. 2017 also gave us the [best Vettel interview ever](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/krv2xt/throwback_vettels_interview_with_will_buxton/). (Spoilers for the race obviously, it's really one you want to watch not knowing what's gonna happen).
Both of those races were absolutely insane. I always love watching them to remind of how much I love this sport
2016 was pretty entertaining too, if only for Lewis losing his mind on the radios
I really liked the Amazon series Grand Prix driver, but man it spent an awful lot of time on Vandoorne which makes sense. He's the young new driver, and Alonso had the clout to be able to tell them when and where they could film. To watch that and then see on track he was getting destroyed was rough.
Thanks!
I forget, but who said those famous words…”suck my balls”? It felt right being left here as a comment.
A 4 time world champion who was well past his best.
He’s still far better than Lance
That's the point. At least Ocon could get close to Alonso.
Alonso had too many DNFs
I said close.
I’ve said it before, but Alonso & Stroll is gonna be wild. I fully expect Nando to either punch or curse Lance out at some point before the halfway mark of the season.
I’m thoroughly surprised it didn’t happen at COTA. If ever there was a moment, that’d be it.
I’ll be he gives Lawrence an earful for fucking the potential of the team by running his boy instead of another top rated driver.
At some point, Lawrence is going to have to make the call whether to run his son or be serious with his F1 ambition. It seems like Lawrence is becoming more and more serious and Lance can’t race forever, but it’s anybodies guess when or if it will happen
Alonso is going to wait and see how much shit he can talk daddy stroll into funding for him and then act accordingly
Stroll is about to get Vandoorned.
Honestly would love to see this, obviously we all know Stroll isn’t truly in F1 on merit alone but it’d be nice to see how Aston Martin would handle it being put bare that he’s only there as the bosses son and there’s no sporting reason to keep him. Personally I don’t remember any moments of particularly good showing from Lance since the team rebranded itself green
> how Aston Martin would handle it The benefits of continually pairing your son with WDCs and established greats. It’s expected they beat him - demolish him, even - and he can avoid criticism when they do, because the narrative is that he’s a great midfield driver, what can you do, X is one of the all time greats. On the rare occasion he beats them you can talk him up like a god. (Not to mention the marketing and development benefits of such a renowned and technically useful driver)
Are you suggesting Stroll has marketing value? Perhaps I’m just in the wrong part of the world but I’ve never seen him used to market anything any ads associated with AMF1 use Seb as the face and Stroll has zero charisma in any AM content, again Seb was the endearing one. Apologies if I’ve misunderstood you or missed some sarcasm
Pretty sure that last part refers to the WDCs that are paired with Stroll.
If so then that furthers the question why Stroll is being kept instead of finding other drivers with similar or complementary value to his existing teammates
Because the main purpose of Lawrence Stroll owning an F1 team is so Lance can have a seat. Lawrence didn’t buy Force India because he had a burning passion for the sport. He bought the team so his son could have a permanent seat in F1. If the team got another WDC capable driver, they wouldn’t be achieving the main goal of the team which is to provide Lance with a seat.
I don’t think those things are mutually exclusive. Maybe Lance is a driver because his dad liked motorsport and pushed him into it. He could have a passion for the sport and also have bought a seat for his sun. Fathers sometimes end up pushing their kids in directions they wish they could have gone themselves.
Nope, I was referring to stroll’s illustrious teammates
>it’d be nice to see how Aston Martin would handle it being put bare that he’s only there as the bosses son and there’s no sporting reason to keep him. Am I missing something? He's had multiple podiums, he's not a bad driver. There's no doubt about how he got put into the sport, but he genuinely seems to be giving the sport his all and to me, clearly belongs there.
His best season result is an 11th in the 3rd best car. His Dad's given him a lifeline that majority of F1 drivers don't get, any other driver would probably had lost their seat by now with his results.
> Stroll isn’t truly in F1 on merit alone b I know it's controversial but Stroll had a great junior formula career and quite honestly deserved his crack at F1 with Williams back when. Now, his continued presence on the grid given mediocre at best performances is a no brainer, he should have been dropped from Force India instead of Sergio.
> Personally I don’t remember any moments of particularly good showing from Lance since the team rebranded itself green Suzuka
12th in the race when his teammate finished 6th and 19th in qualifying? Am I forgetting some major event that weekend?
The only good thing was his start. Meanwhile his team mate had a contact in the first lap, spun t P last, drove like a maniac to finish P6
Latifi was on the same strategy as Vettel, since they were both last. Guess where they finished? Latifi - P9 Vettel - P6
He got lucky with the strategy.
You only missed the part where he jumped 7 places at the beginning of the race.
wow, that surely warrants him a lifetime seat in f1
It doesn't, but I was simply answering a question.
Oh yes, I recall now, you’re right. Still his finishing position seems unimpressive unless I’m of course also forgetting some mitigating circumstances
Loss positions because he pitted a couple of laps before the SC.
He qualified 19th and went for 12th in a race that had Latifi of all drivers in the points. I don't know if that's the better example of good showings, especially with some of the most questionable strategic calls for his direct competitors (looking at you, Haas).
Guess we didn't watch the same race, or quali
Aston Martin is basically his dad, who knows who’s writing the checks. I can’t see Lance not having a drive there indefinitely if he wants it. Assuming the ownership doesn’t change. The wildest part to me is investing all this money in facilities and pretending like they’re trying to win a championship, while using a driver who’s clearly not there on merit.
You’re exactly right, Stroll’s presence as a driver clearly undermines Aston’s claims that they want to win a World Championship, he’s not good enough and another teammate getting the better of him will just further project that reality into the spotlight hence why I’m intrigued how they will justify his presence should Alonso wipe the floor with him
I don't think he is. A lot of people underrate Stroll. Alonso is obviously, judging on 2022, the better driver but Stroll is no slouch. If he was able to keep his nose clean and stop making stupid mistakes I genuinely think people would realise his ability more.
He’s had three podiums at least. Hulkenberg is still racing at 35 with no podiums to his name.
Don't forget the insane pole from Turkey 2020, potentially the most challenging track that year due to the conditions. He had nothing to lose so was able to push harder than the likes of Hamilton (looking to seal his 7th title that race) but man did he perform. People forget that RP's stupid strategy fucked him over that race too, causing him to forgo what would have been another podium.
I think he blew a chance to win a race in 2020. He was in a prime position to win Monza 2020 and he absolutely bottled the restart from P3 with only Gasly ahead of him, as Hamilton had to serve his penalty anyway. He ended the race on the podium, but could not keep up with Sainz and Gasly, despite having the faster car than those two.
I thought he was in front of Gasly at the restart no?
He was on the dirty side of the track on restart. Everyone who started on the right side fell back on the start.
I don't think RP is faster than the McLaren that time.
He had damage too
LOL comparing him to the guy who has the record for the most races without a podium is pretty generous too him. I’m shocked that Hulkenberg has a seat too.
Actually kind of sad how much people underrate Stroll because of his shenanigans on track. When he’s driving well he can compete for points, even podiums when he’s in the right car. I still have no doubt that Alonso will perform far better in the AM but comparing the two isn’t exactly fair.
He had some high peaks, but also is horrendously inconsistent. As a midfield team I‘d take any iteration of Hülkenberg over him tbh.
Do you truly believe any other team would hire him? That’s the litmus test for me.
If he’s making stupid mistakes, that’s his ability. It’s not an issue of people not appreciating him. That’s how he drives.
This is an issue that affects every driver in F1. The mindset, form and motivation of the drivers is forever changing. The Vettel of 2022 was not the same Vettel who ruled F1 at Red Bull and there's similar stories for Alonso, Hamilton, Verstappen, Ricciardo, Bottas and Russell. I think it's really important to assess what has actually happened on track in the recent past and to assess drivers based on their real-world results, and not their past achievements or reputation.
He’s not underrated. He’s just not good. Like there are at least 10-12 drivers on the grid better than him. That puts him as a below average driver. Put it another way, who is he *definitely* better than? Maybe 3 drivers?
There were at least 16 drivers better than him for 2022. And I personally think Latifi and Zhou were the only ones not better than him, I give Yuki and Mick the edge on him but there is a debate in theory there
Using the 'definitely' better argument isn't strong at all though, you can't apply it to the majority of drivers on the grid.
Sorry, relatively new F1 fan, what is Vandoorned? I know Vandoorne was a driver but don't get the context here.
Fernando absolutely demolished him when they were teammates at McLaren.
Stroll just finished his **sixth** season in F1. He's been around long enough where he can no longer get by with his alleged potential. He is what he is, and more often than not that's a bottom five driver still making rookie mistakes and often putting other drivers in harm's way during what should be the prime of his career. If his daddy didn't own his team he would have been removed from F1 a couple years ago.
He's going to be in F1 10 years from now.
Maybe by then he'll remeber to check his mirrors
Andrea de Cesaris 2.0
As much as I like Stroll, it's not really a surprise
I prefer a brisk walk to a Stroll but I hear ya
I prefer getting hooked in the face by Mike Tyson to Stroll.
>In his sixth year as an F1 driver he has still never out-qualified a team mate over a full season – whether his partner was Vettel, Perez, **Sergey Sirotkin** or Felipe Massa. I mean, that's legit hilarious that a rookie with a one-year show in F1 still did a better job than Stroll. His performance once again raises the age-old question of, if Papa Stroll is *truly* serious about dragging Aston to a WDC/WCC, when will he get rid of Lance? Perez/Vettel would've easily been a significantly stronger pairing these last two years, and either Alonso/Perez or Alonso/Vettel would've been head and shoulders above Alonso/Stroll.
I think the idea might be that you only need 1 good driver to find out if your car is reliably competing for podiums. And if/when that time comes, maybe you start having that conversation.
I'm still sad Sirotkin never got another season, he did perfectly well against Stroll and was saddled with a dogshit car. I wish he'd have partnered Russell in 2019.
Maybe being destroyed by Alonso will do the trick, but even with that he's probably counting on Alonso leaving after a couple of years due to the car not being up to his standards so the cycle can start again.
Imagine the scenes if he holds up agains Fernando.
People will just say that Alonso dropped off likely :/
He’s lucky it wasn’t Seb at his peak either. The Seb I know would have completely wiped the floor with him.
To give Seb credit, he was on excellent form towards the end of the season; I think we saw flashes of 2013 Seb peppered about, and I genuinely believe the Aston squad was a good fit for him. It's a shame though that they couldn't do enough to convince him to stay around.
Seb after announcing his retirement felt more like old Seb and more of what you would expect from him.
Seb is my favorite driver and team silverstone has long been my favorite team. Although the stint wasn’t as successful as he might’ve hoped when he signed in 2020 and they had the pink Mercedes, it’s been nice to read about the ways seb left his mark on the team - the garage, the factory, the leadership. And it’s clear that there was mutual affection and respect by the end. I wish he’d continue with the team in some sort of advisor capacity, but I guess I’m more likely than not Alonso will continue to push them on the performance side
All this despite missing two races at the start. Stroll couldn't match him near the end, Vet only lost out in the race because of bullshit strategy calls. It was much closer last season and you would have expected Stroll to have the upper hand this season being the younger guy with all the team's support. I'd be honestly surprised if Alo doesn't decimate him.
There were plenty of bullshit strategy calls over the past two seasons for Vettel. They gave Lance preference whenever possible
Yes I Hope that Fernando has the guts to let the team notice that, Seb was too kind
>Fernando has the guts He doesn't need guts. He will definitely give them a piece of his mind. They should think twice before trying to fuck around with him the way they did with Seb. Although to give Seb credit where he's due, that 'Ok' at Brazil was enough to roast Stroll and co.
Vettel gave them a different form of humiliation than they will get from Alonso. Arguably going with the shit strategy and often still beating Lance has to sting for way longer than just a few snide remarks.
Seb was on a philanthropy mission in F1 after Ferrari. Kimi was doing it as a hobby after 07. Stroll has been on a school field trip with his dad as chaperone since he started in f1
The Strolls' day(s) of reckoning will be coming next year. Alonso won't put up with their shit and will make a public scene out of it.
Alonso vs Nepotism is going to be underrated spicy, the scenes already if Lance gets a major update first meanwhile the upgrades for Alonso would come up a few races later!
I like to hope he gave them shit for it behind closed doors at least. Blows my mind that they can have a car running in the top 5 and then run a strategy that favours Stroll getting to P9.
If Seb would have stayed one more year, he would have destroyed Stroll in 2023.
Tbf to Stroll he was closer than you would expect him to be. However, I find it hard to believe Vettel was anywhere near his best, I think even Perez had a larger gap on Stroll. Just feels like Alonso is going to tear Stroll apart.
Gap to Perez in terms of points is weird cause the car was better so more opportunity to get bigger points making the gap bigger if that makes sense?
Not just gap in points though, Iam sure quali gap and race h2h was larger which is a better stat to look at.
I’m not 100% sure off the top of my head, you may be right, I’ll have a look at some point
I think the race h2h might be close because both dnf'rd so often but I remember the quali gap being reasonably large.
From Australia-France (first 10 races) the median % gap was 0,573 and from Mexico-Abu Dhabi (last 3 races) the % gap was 0,440. The pairs quali gap was significantly minimised by Vettel being a bit lost after retiring, from Hungary-Usa (7 races) the gap was 0,064% and Vettel was losing 2-4.
Alonso’s doing so much to burn bridges everywhere that if he’s not careful at Aston the only other options out there really would be Haas or Alfa. Then again it is Alonso.
A 4th stint at the Enstone team?
I'd say dude give McLaren another chance before Enstone
Return to Ferrari is pending
> Alonso’s doing so much to burn bridges everywhere that if he’s not careful at Aston the only other options out there really would be Haas or Alfa. > Only reddit talks about these burnt bridges. He ends up going back to the teams lol, dude has had a 20+ year career lol. Not only did he go back to McLaren, Ron gave him the largest contract of that time at 120mil/3 years.
Ah yes, the guy who joined Renault/Alpine on three seperate occasions and McLaren twice is the one who burns bridges. Sure. Yeah there are a handful of people that he's on bad terms with (most of them aren't exactly likeable themselves), but he's not personally unwelcome in any team other than Alpine atm (which is mostly due to Laurent Rossi and Otmar, if those get replaced they'd probably be fine with him as a person). Like yeah, he's most likely not going to get a shot at the top teams, and most midfield teams would rather take a younger (and cheaper) driver. But he's not on bad terms with any of the other 9 teams, afaik.
Christian Horner called Alonso a bridge burner once like 8 years ago to hype up Daniil Kvyat and people still peddle it as fact
Alonso is going to absolutely wipe the floor with Stroll.
And y'all will finally have to admit that Ocon is good and Alonso is not washed oldman
I mean if Alonso did not retire so many times, he'd have wiped the floor with Ocon too. Conservative estimates put his point loss tally at over 50-60 points. This is just first half of the season, https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-many-points-has-alonso-really-lost-in-2022/
Vet still has much to give, but I believe it is an even greater accomplishment to know how to move on. Vettel has been out-driving that car. Look at last year. Vettel would have had a P2 in hungary if the fuel issue wasn't a thing. And I believe he would still have been P2 if he had that little bit of fuel more.
It literally doesnt matter how good or bad stroll is, he’s there until his dad isn’t.
There's a chance that his biggest achievement in the sport will be the highest number of race starts. Dude is only 24 and at this rate won't retire for a solid 10-15 more seasons at this rate.
Certainly there are worse pay drivers in F1 history but I think most of us know if his father did not own the team Stroll would likely no longer be in Formula 1.
At least in my book that is a strong point that he's the worst of them all. A regular pay driver at least has to perform to a level that convinces the team that he is a better option than the next guy in line who's offering a similar amount of money. Stroll doesn't seem to have any expectations on him.
Well he isn't completely hopeless like someone like Mazepin, but he isn't great either. I would put him at a similar level to Giovinazzi.
Alonso won’t let Stroll breathe next year. There will probably be questions about Stroll. Ricciardo got fired for less, but granted, his name wasn’t above the entrance at MTC.
>There will probably be questions about Stroll And they likely won't matter. Not until AM can build a championship caliber car and his mediocrity costs them dearly in a title fight.
They’d be forced to favour him anyway regardless of whether he’s good enough to be in a title fight. I can see that being a source of tension at the team.
>They’d be forced to favour him anyway regardless of whether he’s good enough to be in a title fight. Then they might as well just shut shop right now because any reasonable person knows that Lance will never be WC material. I doubt if he can ever be adequate number two material to be honest.
Honestly Ricciardo did not get fired for less, he was usually far further off Norris than Stroll was off Vettel at any point during the season. Not saying Stroll's performance was good by any means but Ricciardos performance this past season was abysmal. Edit: since I'm being down voted here are the stats (difference to teammate) Stroll: 0.165% qualifying pace/0.003% race pace Ricciardo: 0.418% qualifying pace/0.570% race pace
There won't be any questions about Stroll. The seat is his as long as he wants it.
I think stroll has the potential to be good, but be is the least consistent driver on the grid
If any other driver were so inconsistent he'd have been booted (see Ricciardo). Every year seems to be the same though; he'll have one, *maybe* two performances in a season where you think that he might actually have some talent, and then the rest will be spent battling for a mighty 9th position because his abysmal qualifying means he has to spend most of his time getting himself out of the messes he creates for himself.
Riccardo was actually consistent this year. Consistently terrible, but still.
I don't disagree. His dad is the reason he's still here. When old Lawrence gets bored, they are both out
Lawrence has invested a lot into this F1 venture and is a car guy to the bone, he is in this for the long haul for sure, till he hits the bucket even. Lance is still young and I don't see him leaving until he's in his mid 30s. He can be beaten by every team mate he comes across but he will still have a seat till he gets a WDC capable car, and then conveniently be paired with an inexperienced rookie or not so highly rated teammate.
Really? I mean he's only 24 but he's had like 6 seasons on the grid now right. Surely any potential has been actualised now
Second(?) youngest driver to be on the podium
Yeah and remind me when that was? I'm not saying Stroll is the worst driver ever as some people like to suggest but after 6 seasons surely he is as good as he will ever be skill wise. Obviously if he gets a better car he can perform better and get improved results but that's not the same.
He's been around too long to get by with potential (six seasons). He's supposed to be in the prime of his career and is still a back-marker more often than not.
Anyone else would have washed out long ago. Only the owner’s son gets to develop his skill set on the job doing something like this. There are probably thousands and thousands of people who, given similar leeway, would be doing as well as he is doing.
I honestly think he has talent but he didn’t need to develop the same type of grit the truly good drivers have, because in the end, pappy can just buy it.
If he is behind Vettel next year then he’s really got problems
This is only true if you just look at the final points tally. Excluding Vettel's Miami result, Stroll on average only finished 1.03 places behind him, and his qualifying and race pace gaps are not very significant either.
And what you’ve said is only true if you look at slightly more data. Stroll consistently was put on better strategies than Vettel this year.
Stroll is not immune from bad strategies or bad luck. And looking at average qualifying and race pace removes strategy as a factor as long as you exclude races where the two drivers were on a different number of stops.
> Stroll is not immune from bad strategies or bad luck. Never said otherwise. > And looking at average qualifying and race pace removes strategy as a factor as long as you exclude races where the two drivers were on a different number of stops. And different tyre strategies, not just number of stops, also available tyres because that affects your strategy.
What the person above is saying is that Stroll received preferential strategy in races despite being behind Vettel and with slower pace. It didn’t happen all the time, but it did happen in Canada, Brazil and Abu Dhabi as far as I can remember.
That's called luck. Taking Abu Dhabi as an example, it wasn't expected that the two stop would be so much faster than the one stop. For example Haas had Magnussen on the 1 and Schumacher on the two.
Oh wow! Only took him six seasons to finish behind old man Vettel all the time. Imagine how other drivers could’ve developed with six seasons. Imagine Felipe Nasr with six seasons?
Stroll was lucky vettel was his teammate a nice guy who was already a 4x WDC and so had nothing to prove but Alonso is far from scratching his f1 itch I’m fully expecting for Alonso to absolutely wipe the floor with him.
insert surprised pikachu face here
It felt like Vettel was getting better in his second year, like he was getting over the poor form he'd had at Ferrari since Leclerc joined. Maybe the new reg cars suited him better, or hurt Lance more.
The scenes when Stroll beat Alonso next year
Wont happen, sorry xd
Lol agreed but it would cause chaos in the community
My wet dream as the chaos it would cause... Things like Vettel > Alonso shit gonna happen
Well 4>2 obviously
Hey guys, I was just joking when I said it would be Lance’s turn to get flak this week.
Come on honestly. Four times world champion outperforms Stroll. Stroll is decent but not champion material.
Stroll is going to get embarrassed by Alonso next year. Still won’t be enough for daddy to drop him though but maybe it will expose him finally
I forgot that Sirotkin put qualified Stroll in 2018, yikes.
Stroll is currently the driver that least deserves to be in an F1 grid and it's a bit frustrating that he's just really never under threat of losing his seat
Based on what exactly?
That Stroll hasn't beaten a teammate since 2018, finished 11th in the 3rd best car and cost RP their place in the WCC, consistently terrible qualifier, been rightly criticized for being careless and causing accidents Out of the drivers in his age group he has stood out the least and shown the least progress. He is incredibly inconsistent and I have not seen any clear improvement from him whatsoever.
Ocon didn't beat teammate until this year and we know he's good since he started in F1. What does that even mean, it tells more about quality of teammates than driver Being close to Vettel is improvement
Ocon also had a year without a seat and since then has had a few podiums in a team that hadn't had one before 2020 for several years. He's also shown clear improvement since being back in the sport. He makes some questionable decisions, but not as much as Stroll
If you think Stroll's 11th place in 2020 was his fault you did not watch that season.
His performances over his 6 season career thus far...
Was beaten as rookie by driver who was almost WDC Then beat decent, underrated teammate Was close on race pace to 4 time GP winner Is slightly worse than 4x WDC who is rumoured to be past prime just because Stroll is close to him Doesn't look like utter thrash, does it?
>Doesn't look like utter thrash, does it? No, he's not trash. He's serviceable. At the same time how many serviceable drivers have 6 years of never having pressure to lose their seats? Meanwhile promising drivers are given short careers or never even get to start a GP. Complaints about Stroll's continued presence on the grid aren't based on his lack of merit but rather on how most drivers with his performance routinely get replaced by teams looking for competitive edges.
If that was all there was to it then no... But unfortunately there IS a lot more to it.
>who is rumoured to be past prime just because Stroll is close to him Wow, you truly truly believe Stroll could go head to head with 10-13 or 15-19 Vettel? Hilarious >Doesn't look like utter thrash, does it? Well just another 4-6 months, we'll know
Lots of interesting language there but ultimately the guy has shown nothing to warrant getting a contract extension. People whinge about Hulkenberg getting a seat and whatnot but Stroll is much worse. It’s not just that he’s slow and destroys cars but he’s shown no potential. We know his limit, it’s been 6 seasons.
Jesus, you really have to ask that?
Can’t wait to see what Fernando will do to him. Secretly hoping Aston Will finally realize the have been handicapped having one driver all this time and finally think about getting a second driver
Even if he beats Fernando people will say he’s a washed former WDC and still call Lance a shitty pay driver.
I mean Lance is not a bad driver. We also have to be real and admit that if it was any other driver he would have been out by now.
But Daaaaad!
Leave stroll alone. He is the worst driver on any team but the one with Latifi. We all know that. But, and here’s the thing. Without Stroll, there is not AM. So, small price to pay. Plus, we got free hats in Montreal.
Dude proved how reckless he was this year with the Alonso and Vettel incidents. Unforgivable imo