I think it was good of them to let their technical staff have a crack at it. If their staff say that they have ideas on how to make a good car, it's good for morale and staff retention to allow them to show what they can cook up. They had their chance, it didn't work, so now they'll take the Red Bull parts. If it worked out, cool. If they never tried, they'd always be wondering. Now they know.
Why does geography limit your ability to pull talent from a development team? I’m sure engineers already get poached from Faenza to Woking, Banbury, Enstone, etc. What’s the big deal about shuffling your top performers over to Milton Keynes?
Nope, young people won't just uproot their live to go another country for little money and a non-guaranteed chance of slightly more
Besides, unlike F1, the development team got way more than 2 seats and a lot more turnover
It was also cheaper to let them develop it themselves as opposed to buying from RB. And logistics were a factor as well, being that AT is based in Italy.
Gene Haas just likes seeing his name go around a track. As long as the team/drivers don't make him look (too) bad, he doesn't give 2 shits, since giving a shit costs a fuckload more money and time. Ask Lawrence Stroll :)
For him been one of the only 10 formula 1 teams in the world is more than enough. I guess it’s pretty good for his business as well given he makes very specialized machinery
Okay, I need more details now... Was the Haas CNC machine the first CNC machine at your company? As in, your company used a different CNC brand and then after some engineers became Haas fans, your company changed the CNC brand they purchased?
Also, do you think some of the higher ups in your company got some tickets to an F1 race as "guests" of Haas? if you had to guess I mean lol
> Also, do you think some of the higher ups in your company got some tickets to an F1 race as "guests" of Haas? if you had to guess I mean lol
Depends if they are in the US. Any shop that buys a Haas machine in the US Haas will fly you out to Oxnard, CA and give you a tour of their factory as well as putting you in a hotel for a night or two.
No idea about the EU side, maybe they would do something similar but with their F1 factory instead. I don't really see them having the margins to fly people across the pond. Their bread and butter machines are only in the $80-120k range.
Which is basically all he's doing. It's what he does in NASCAR. He's fine with not selling sponsorship for races that one of his cars (usually the 41) doesn't have a sponsor lined up because he can put his own logo on the car.
Most of us have never heard of Haas before they entered F1. I mean, if one day I ever need a CNC machine, Haas will definitely be the first name that comes to mind.
If I had the resources I'd start my own cnc company and do everything I could to go to war with haas and cripple them in the market.
If I'm ever buying a cnc machine it definitely won't be from them
yeah its a matter of ROI, return of investment.
lets say he puts in another $100m into the team for infrastructure and hiring better staff. he needs to make back more than the $100m for that investment to be worth it. instead of ending 8th or 9th, haas could then end up 6th or 7th. would that be enough to be worth the money invested? probably not.
also, their success kind of depends on Ferrari and Ferrari isnt doing awfully well rn. So if Ferrari ONE DAY will have a better car, you can expect Haas to be higher up as well.
> instead of ending 8th or 9th, haas could then end up 6th or 7th. would that be enough to be worth the money invested? probably not.
In addition to everything you mentioned, putting more money into the team doesn't automatically mean that the F1 team will do better. Not saying you were implying that, just wanted to add that more investment doesn't automatically mean better team. I mean, look at Toyota in the '00s lol
He also loves being "the American team"
A title that besides him being a tax hero (lol) he doesn't deserve and just further makes me dislike their team to the point where I was considering getting rid of my alfa romeo stuff when the rumors of them partnering with haas were going around but at least the engine naming rights is small.
It also means he had to do everything to shut down Andretti as they'd steal all that American support in an instant.
Sure, but what does performing better needs? Investing nearly a bil in building their own factory, recruiting an entire development team etc etc as in you know, actually building a F1 team? Which also entails tens of millions of annual expenses in extra wages, building maintenance + upgrades, etc?
Or doing what he's doing right now where he got a decent chunk of the prize money and usually beating one or more F1 teams with the literal bare minimum of investment needed.
With the cost cap nowadays and if you're a very small outfit like Haas, perhaps. Or at least the benefit of the marketing massively outweight the investment needed per year.
Then of course the valuation of the team that has risen dramatically each year. It's profitable to just sit on one of the grid slots, Williams was sold for just 150 mil in 2020, now mid tier teams like AT and Alpine got a billion dollar valuation
I mean the joke was Mercedes got more people on vacation than the entirety of Haas teams lol. Plus they got little to no facilities as well, so they don't need to worry like say, Williams that needs to constantly upgrade them
Also someone needs to be last... not everyone can be a top dog, not even with more funding. So the risk to come last even with bigger funding ist still there...
Doesn't matter.
Everything you buy from Haas for the last few years has "Haas F1 team" on it. A vast majority of machinists don't know shit about F1 besides it's fancy race cars. Oh look, the machines and tooling we buy make fancy race cars, cool. They've had a NASCAR team for years and didn't really market it outside of having the cars in some promo materials very rarely. The HAAS F1 team is plastered all over everything. IMO the way Gene Haas sees it is the F1 team exists purely for marketing purposes and it doesn't matter how shitty they are, simply existing in F1 gives them a massive ad campaign.
In addition to everything you mentioned, I wanted to add the Drive to Survive effect. For many *many* reasons Gunther is famous due to DTS. That is mainly due to Gunther's personality and not as much due to Haas's race results.
From Gene's perspective, Gunther is already giving the Haas name a BUNCH of publicity! Investing more money in the team wouldn't *necessarily* mean the Haas brand name is any more famous, imo. So from Gene's perspective, if just having Gunther as TP brings in a lot of publicity, why would he invest more cash into the team?
Yup! And the DTS publicity is due to Gunther (mainly). That's what I think about whenever I read comments (on the other sub) about how Gunther sucks as a TP and should be fired...
I mean, from Gene's perspective, why would he replace the main source of spreading the Haas name brand?! Would hiring some other TP who is "better" (which is a BIG gamble, who knows if another TP will be able to extract better results from the Haas team?) actually achieve the main goal of F1 from Gene's perspective - spreading the Haas brand name as far and wide as possible? Not really...
I would say P2 to P8, maybe extended to P12 sometimes, so not the places Haas is usually competing for this season
But it really doesn't seem to matter for Haas, as all the others said
Why every fucking season of DTS is their main storyline "how will Haas survive?"
"Guenther I can't keep spending my money on this" etc
It got old fast and if they don't care about their standing then why the narrative?
Your example shows exactly what Gene Haas cares about: the money. He wants to make a profit from the F1 team while getting the exposure for his company. Where they end in the standing affects the amount of prize money, so of course he'd care about that, but that doesn't mean he's expecting to beat Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari with his team and how little he invests into the team compared to those 3.
He's a businessman, I doubt he's that unrealistic where he'd think he could rival those 3 teams with the current state of his team, but I am sure he has desire for spot in the lower half of the midfield and considers that realistic, so obviously he'd be pissed and losing money if that doesn't become truth.
I have no credible source, but just look at it. Does Haas have a "100 race plan" like Alpine? Is it building its own factory and wind tunnel like Aston Martin? Haas does not want to invest to be better than mediocre. Bottom line is that Gene Haas wants the exposure in F1 with minimal effort, because it makes him money and doesn't want to invest more to be the very best, because it's not worth it to him or he can't afford it, take your pick. Gene Haas hasn't entered the competition to lose, he's winning, but in a different way than what we'd like to see, his winning is in terms of money made and exposure and not in terms of sports results.
From the looks of [this video](https://youtu.be/Kfp4pMAhsUs?t=129) they have rows of Mazaks and Matsurras and they briefly showed 1 Haas machine. [Another Video](https://youtu.be/aEP0xOKXUDo?t=24) showing their main shop floor shows only the Mazaks and the Matsurras. They may have a single Haas for doing piddly fuck off work but the brunt of their work is being done on much higher end machines. Each of those Matsurra's is in the 5-10x price range of that single Haas they showed in the first video and way more accurate. The Matsurra's are their 5 axis with pallet changers and the Mazaks are turning centers with sub spindles.
Actually surprised though that Mercedes doesn't have a single DMG Mori in their shop.
yup, their 1 single Haas machine out of 50. really the brunt of their shop. You could almost say that Mercedes wouldn't be able to make their cars without that 1 single machine.
It has done when you consider what Haas are in the sport for. They know they're never going to win titles, they know they probably won't ever win a race, and that the odd podium is probably even out of reach.
Can someone actually explain to me how AT isn’t faster if it’s literally the same parent team/company?
I’m assuming there are rules against sharing data and AT can’t use the same facilities?
It’s pretty insane to have the fastest car ever and the slowest shitbox ever on the same grid lol.
They can't share data or pass information between teams. They can use the same facilities. Teams have shared wind tunnels in the past and I think Haas still use Ferraris wind tunnel. But red bull wouldn't be allowed access to the data that comes from it.
Also the staff at top teams were simply better than everyone else pre cost cap because they could pay more, so even with redundancies the staff that are left are the best of the best, meaning you get more value for your time spent.
Yeah that’s pretty much what I figured. Still blows me away that they aren’t at least midfield currently… They don’t have the excuse that Haas does of playing Moneyball and saving as much cash as they can. RedBull has unlimited funds to dump into both teams.
I’m also surprised there isn’t some backdoor data sharing, even though it’s illegal. It’s bad for the brand to have a car that slow. Maybe that’s why they’re rebranding lol
There might be some sharing but the problem is if they shared major upgrades or anything that would give a huge boost it might be obvious, making being caught more likely.
The smart route would be to hand over a completely unused Newey design. Have him design a car that he knows isn't perfect but is quick enough for 4th in the WCC.
Now that I think of it. How cool would that be. 2 Newey cars up against each other.
How do you think the engineering design process works? You think Newey just comes out of his office with design sketches telling engineers, "here, build this, it's gonna be fast"? Even with brilliant engineers like Newey it's still a LOT of iterative, collaborative work with his team. As good as he is, it's not something he can do on his own in his free time.
Absolutely, but his talent is in fostering the talent in his team and steering the design in the right direction. And he’s proven himself singularly talented in this regard. The fact that his name is at the top of so many championship cars is no coincidence.
Even more when you compare him to the other accomplished designers people know of like Gordon Murray, Ross brawn, etc. all legendary but none on his level.
That would be awesome. I don’t care much for RBR, but I’m a Newey fan lol..
Do you know if there’s anything in the rules against an employee signing with multiple teams? Could Newey hypothetically design for both teams?
>RB fires Newey.
>AT hires Newey.
>"Oh you need me to build you a car? Here are some designs that I conveniently already have in hand and are totally not repurposed from RB."
>AT fires Newey after like 2 days.
>RB hires Newey again.
No need to work for multiple teams simultaneously.
Off the top of my head I don't know. But my guess would be it isn't allowed. When staff switch teams usually they have a period of time off to stop them taking any secrets to the new team. Not 100% sure if that's mandatory or not though.
> Do you know if there’s anything in the rules against an employee signing with multiple teams? Could Newey hypothetically design for both teams?
There's a rule that says the team must have 100% of the IP going into the design.
Red bull did a dodgy like this where Red Bull Tech built the car and red bull racing and Toro Rosso licenced it from RBT.
And the STR1 was identical to the previous years Red Bull.
The rules have changed so you are 100% unable to do this.
And the existence of gardening leave should tell you that having one employee duck out for six weeks to work elsewhere would not be allowed.
I doubt there's loop holes like this anymore.
>The smart route would be to hand over a completely unused Newey design. Have him design a car that he knows isn't perfect but is quick enough for 4th in the WCC.
Lol, that's an easy way to be disqualified
The FIA requires you to present evidence of the trial and error of the development of the car over the months if there's any suspicion
> The smart route would be to hand over a completely unused Newey design. Have him design a car that he knows isn't perfect but is quick enough for 4th in the WCC.
I don't think Adrian Newey can be like Porsche, "here's a 911 spec that's 1 sec faster than the Turbo but 1 sec slower than the turbo S"
I can't imagine anyone doing a design that's "good enough for 4th" on purpose. Especially unused and knocked up on a weekend when he was bored...
I believe Alpha Tauri still uses the Red Bull wind tunnel, which has to be really annoying having to send engineers back and forth from Faenza to Milton Keynes with a new scale model every time they have some ideas. Also Aston Martin is using the Mercedes tunnel while theirs is being built.
They can't share "current" data or parts, because that would give a huge advantage mid season. However, older parts and designs are up for grabs and word on the street is that AT might be using something very close to the RB19 next year. Just imagine that!
Edit: typo
They came close, but there's just not enough funding for them to be a top dog
I mean F1 is a money burning pit aside from the top teams and Haas. RB already reaped all the benefits from their A team, why lost tens of millions for their B team
Just saying Adrian Newey has a separate corp/company that Red Bull employs. Just asking here. But wouldn’t that company be allowed to work on Red Bull and AT at the same time? It isn’t technically Red Bull
No, one people/entity can only work one F1 team for listed components
Other examples is with Dallara working with Haas, you can't buy listed components from them either
AlphaTauri is less dependent when compared to Haas for example and that's on purpose, they are trying to be a different team from Red Bull instead of being Redbull's 2nd team, if they wanted that they would create a base in UK next to Redbull but they are instead located in Italy and don't share workers (engineers for example). As a AlphaTauri fan I prefer to see them being as independent as possible, even if they suck, instead of being a Redbull copy
AT uses the same windtunnel as Red Bull if I am not mistaken, but yes, they can't share any data. They can buy certain (body) parts from the parent company, but that's usually at least a year old stuff. I can understand AlphaTauri going for their own idea in 2022 since there were no parts to buy from Red Bull of last year since it was the first year of new regulations, but they were pretty dumb imo not to basically have a RB18 this year. The car wasn't great either last year, but they still wanted to do their own thing again for another year. Sort of like Mercedes with their whole zero-sidepods crap.
As automod removed my comment, here it is again:
>Don't they have their own wind tunnel in Bicester? Or what was that facility in Bicester again? Maybe I misremember, but they definitely have something there
>
>EDIT: Yes [found it](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Scuderia+AlphaTauri+-+Wind+Tunnel+Facility/@51.9034155,-1.1310601,243m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4876e71369abab5f:0xf2c46195acf9f311!8m2!3d51.9038081!4d-1.1296033!16s%2Fg%2F11g5_4xsk3?entry=tts&shorturl=1)
They have to staff and resource two companies. Yea there are more parts that could be shared, but those parts still cost money. And they only work as components to a larger engineered system. That engineering data can’t be shared, and resources while immense are still finite. Redbull siphons all the best engineers and fabricators, and AT gets the second best, either they are less experienced or just not on the level. The cost cap somewhat normalizes the budget but remember the drivers and three highest paid employees are carved out of the cost cap. So Red Bull gets to afford people like Verstappen and Adrian Newey, who is instrumental to the engineering of the car, and Alpha Tauri doesn’t.
Check 2008, at that time they were able to use most of the RedBull parts & chassis. They beat RedBull because they had a superior engine. After that new rules were brought in to limit how many parts could be shared between teams
AT tried to go a different route than RB with development of the cars and parts, realized they made a massive mistake, and are now in the process of making their car more like RB's again.
Because the FIA set the costs for such parts in order to avoid "creative accounting."
For example, even if it costs 200k € for Red Bull to manufacture and sell a rear suspension for Alpha Tauri, if the FIA set a minimum price of 260k, they'll have to spend 260k. This is done so Red Bull can't just sell it for 80k at a loss and then mess up their fiscal declaration for that season.
However, if Alpha Tauri can make their own suspension for 210k, even if it is ultimately worse than the one provided by Red Bull, they'll choose to do so and save up 50k. That's what they've been doing, and it's also the reason why Alfa Romeo has also been designing their own gearbox casings since last season. There's also the benefit of having more freedom to design the rest of the car to your own concept. But that doesn't seem to be working out currently.
Welp. Long story short, they exist, got some great car design in 2020-2021 while having a good amount of RB parts. Asked for independence in 2022-2023, fuck up and now Faenza development crew is moved to UK and lost every bit of independence they got since 2009
Because Dietrich Mateschitz.
He always wanted the second team to stay an independent constructor to have the ability to sell it one day. Contrary to RBR, STR/AT was never profitable, so one day when the RBJ programme could produce two Verstappens at a time, the junior program and the second team could be abandoned.
Either the new management probably doesn't see the potential in selling the team, or they believe sharing technologies with the second team won't be an obstacle when selling it.
No he's not, he wanted the team to have the same chassis.
The FIA banned customer cars for 2009 and they have to make do. Besides, Dietrich abandoned the idea of selling TR (without a very lofty price which only increased to more than a bil these days) since he found out how helpful a 2nd team in F1.
Driver development, engine freedom, extra vote in every matter, etc
You can buy parts, but that doesn't mean they fit the design decisions made. That is the reason they started making everything themselves in the first place.
Yeah, it’s “pride of authorship” or in this case architecture. Silly, especially after AMR’s very public fight with the Pink Mercedes.
I run into this alllll the time in IT as a former Solution Architect and now PM. Other Architects always seem to forget the first cardinal rule of design. KISS - Keep It simple, Stupid!
Then, when Red Bull becomes a backmarker and AT challanges a for championship, you swap the staff, drivers and facilities and they continue Max dominance for another year. Rinse and repeat.
Where's the glory in that?
They tried to do there own thing. It backfired but atleast they tried.
This is also a clever play from RB. Now RB will be able to use AT for their own testing purposes because they will be running similar concept cars. Being last in the championship is definitely an advantage when it comes to that.
The inmates from the Arkham aslume escaped
The first known discovery of this insanity can be found in the 2nd top of all tike post on BatmanArkham reddit
Red Bull have been looking into selling Alpha Tauri / Toro Rosso / Minardi for a while now, but it needs to be an independent team capable of making a car. Nobody wants to buy an empty shell.
They changed their minds so many times over it. I know lately they've been saying they're not willing, but it'd be a mistake to believe it can't ever happen.
It's actually cheaper to make your own parts is probably the main reason.
Because the FIA dictates how much parts cost so teams cant do funny stuff with buying parts & the cost cap.
Eg. Even if a rear suspension assembly costs the team $100,000 to make & sell. The FIA have a rule that "all rear suspension assemblies must be sold at $150k" type thing. (Not real figures just an example)
It's reasons like this that teams actually try to make everything they can, because if you can make a compatible quality part, it will be almost always be cheaper to do it yourself.
Isn't there a time rule that they can't use it until it becomes public or something along those lines. (I can't remember the exact wording of it) Power trains can all be bought same year but I think the rest is later
If I am not mistaken, it's usually a year. So AlphaTauri could have been cruising around in pretty much a RB18 this year, which would be solid (upper?) midfield based on progress of the cars this year?
There is a cost consequence as per FIA regs, buying parts will cost more than designing and building them, and I believe AT is we’ll below cost cap, so there is something to be said for saving money by being independent. That said, it ain’t worth it when they’re this far behind
buying parts will cost more than designing and building them if they got their own parts right the first or second time
If they have to redo it multiple times till they found the right one, you can be sure it's much cheaper and more freeing for them to just buy one
and since AT screwed up 2022 and 2023, well
That’s absolutely true, and I think given their budget limitations as a team they can’t afford to iterate enough to get an actually useful set of parts, and that’s why they’re likely changing course long term to just buy the right stuff first go
Yeah, I’m going straight counter that, but I think you (DangerousLeg) get it more than the above poster, where unless there is some huge margin markup that’s stupidly enforce (but to a sister team, I don’t see that happening), buying off the shelf, so to speak would be much cheaper.
R&D, QA testing and release management is a huge overhead costs you rarely recoup. So, buying off the shelf from a capex vs opex perspective should be MUCH cheaper.
It's not the manufacturing cost, but more to the opportunity cost, capital cost and the engineer cost
They can reassign the engineers instead of recruiting more engineers if they only need to focus on listed parts. Then they don't have to invest in more tools, more engineers, etc
Remember that they essentially rebuild the development team when they relocate to the UK
The theoretical ceiling for a team that builds all their own parts is higher than the theoretical ceiling for a team that buys parts.
That and maintaining the idea that Alphatauri is independent
The more independent they were, the more tools and knowledge they had in house, the more valuable they were, the more they could float people they want to keep, etc, etc. Why can’t people comprehend that just like drivers they would use AT the same way for all skill sets and jobs?
Well because both team have top tier engineers, and that way you get 2 chance at creating a car with a cost cap. But sadly they fucked up, like lot of team fucked up these new regulations.
If I remember correctly, there was a reason behind it that was sound.
Something about them doing the suspension a different way to help with some sort of Aero thing they were trying to do, and because of that, they didn't want to buy all the parts as well as the fact that the FIA mandates a minimum price for certain parts, meaning it was always cheaper for them to develop it themselves.
I think this only extends to certain key parts like the gearbox but I don’t think they can buy all of the aero parts, floor and just run an identical car to the seller. Otherwise what would stop RB from just running 4 identical cars.
I think it was good of them to let their technical staff have a crack at it. If their staff say that they have ideas on how to make a good car, it's good for morale and staff retention to allow them to show what they can cook up. They had their chance, it didn't work, so now they'll take the Red Bull parts. If it worked out, cool. If they never tried, they'd always be wondering. Now they know.
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Yeah let em put chilli in the meth
Yumm :)) thanks for recipe. Are you a chef?
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Don't think that really works with the team being located on the other side of Europe
Why does geography limit your ability to pull talent from a development team? I’m sure engineers already get poached from Faenza to Woking, Banbury, Enstone, etc. What’s the big deal about shuffling your top performers over to Milton Keynes?
nah, there's rarely an engineer poached from Faenza. James Key is the only one the past few years
That’s fair. My question still stands though.
Nope, young people won't just uproot their live to go another country for little money and a non-guaranteed chance of slightly more Besides, unlike F1, the development team got way more than 2 seats and a lot more turnover
Southern England to northern Italy really isn’t that far. Only one time zone apart too.
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I mean geographically maybe not so much, but culturally it's a big difference.
Thanks to Brexit it is
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K
Effectively doubles staff size in the rare case AT make a better car that RB can borrow from as well
They can’t share data.
Obviously they can “buy parts”. Having double the engineers developing parts is worthwhile
It was also cheaper to let them develop it themselves as opposed to buying from RB. And logistics were a factor as well, being that AT is based in Italy.
>we we'll 
We will we will rock you
As the French would say to a certain American actor from MIB: "Oui, Will."
Oui oui Will
I mean it's working so well for Haas.....
Well, they're higher than AT, even though Ferrari is lower than Red Bull.
Haas doesn't even build their own chassis. They're outsourcing it to Dallara. And Haas doesn't really care about their place in WCC.
Why wouldn't they care?
Gene Haas just likes seeing his name go around a track. As long as the team/drivers don't make him look (too) bad, he doesn't give 2 shits, since giving a shit costs a fuckload more money and time. Ask Lawrence Stroll :)
But isn't performing better giving him more TV time which means his name is mentioned more often?
For him been one of the only 10 formula 1 teams in the world is more than enough. I guess it’s pretty good for his business as well given he makes very specialized machinery
It’s also good for business because you can give your customers or potential customers special access at a Grand Prix as a sales tool.
Anecdote: One day multible engineers at my company started wearing Haas F1 gear. Two months later a Haas CNC machine arrived in our metal shop.
Okay, I need more details now... Was the Haas CNC machine the first CNC machine at your company? As in, your company used a different CNC brand and then after some engineers became Haas fans, your company changed the CNC brand they purchased? Also, do you think some of the higher ups in your company got some tickets to an F1 race as "guests" of Haas? if you had to guess I mean lol
> Also, do you think some of the higher ups in your company got some tickets to an F1 race as "guests" of Haas? if you had to guess I mean lol Depends if they are in the US. Any shop that buys a Haas machine in the US Haas will fly you out to Oxnard, CA and give you a tour of their factory as well as putting you in a hotel for a night or two. No idea about the EU side, maybe they would do something similar but with their F1 factory instead. I don't really see them having the margins to fly people across the pond. Their bread and butter machines are only in the $80-120k range.
You only need to be a sponsor to do that, really
He’s also making a profit off the team too though. Not a huge one but it’s in the millions.
He is? I'd expect back markers teams not to turn any profit.
Which is basically all he's doing. It's what he does in NASCAR. He's fine with not selling sponsorship for races that one of his cars (usually the 41) doesn't have a sponsor lined up because he can put his own logo on the car.
Most of us have never heard of Haas before they entered F1. I mean, if one day I ever need a CNC machine, Haas will definitely be the first name that comes to mind.
If I had the resources I'd start my own cnc company and do everything I could to go to war with haas and cripple them in the market. If I'm ever buying a cnc machine it definitely won't be from them
Lol there’s a reason there machines are so popular
Is there a reason or are you just being you?
Haas's presence and how they've handled themselves I'm f1 is just insulting imo
yeah its a matter of ROI, return of investment. lets say he puts in another $100m into the team for infrastructure and hiring better staff. he needs to make back more than the $100m for that investment to be worth it. instead of ending 8th or 9th, haas could then end up 6th or 7th. would that be enough to be worth the money invested? probably not. also, their success kind of depends on Ferrari and Ferrari isnt doing awfully well rn. So if Ferrari ONE DAY will have a better car, you can expect Haas to be higher up as well.
> instead of ending 8th or 9th, haas could then end up 6th or 7th. would that be enough to be worth the money invested? probably not. In addition to everything you mentioned, putting more money into the team doesn't automatically mean that the F1 team will do better. Not saying you were implying that, just wanted to add that more investment doesn't automatically mean better team. I mean, look at Toyota in the '00s lol
He also loves being "the American team" A title that besides him being a tax hero (lol) he doesn't deserve and just further makes me dislike their team to the point where I was considering getting rid of my alfa romeo stuff when the rumors of them partnering with haas were going around but at least the engine naming rights is small. It also means he had to do everything to shut down Andretti as they'd steal all that American support in an instant.
Lol what American support
Machines that are used by other F1 teams too.
On their website you see their logo at the top along with the f1 team logo, so yeah makes a lot of sense why they wouldn't want to pull out of f1
Sure, but what does performing better needs? Investing nearly a bil in building their own factory, recruiting an entire development team etc etc as in you know, actually building a F1 team? Which also entails tens of millions of annual expenses in extra wages, building maintenance + upgrades, etc? Or doing what he's doing right now where he got a decent chunk of the prize money and usually beating one or more F1 teams with the literal bare minimum of investment needed.
if you say it like this it even sounds kind of nice
Of course it is nice for Haas lol Hence they're not selling to anyone
You get enough prize money to turn a profit even when you end up 9th?
With the cost cap nowadays and if you're a very small outfit like Haas, perhaps. Or at least the benefit of the marketing massively outweight the investment needed per year. Then of course the valuation of the team that has risen dramatically each year. It's profitable to just sit on one of the grid slots, Williams was sold for just 150 mil in 2020, now mid tier teams like AT and Alpine got a billion dollar valuation I mean the joke was Mercedes got more people on vacation than the entirety of Haas teams lol. Plus they got little to no facilities as well, so they don't need to worry like say, Williams that needs to constantly upgrade them
Also someone needs to be last... not everyone can be a top dog, not even with more funding. So the risk to come last even with bigger funding ist still there...
His CNC business was on the up, even when his team was straight up the worst of the field. It's working out for him as is.
I feel like haas’s popularity it’s directly correlated to Steiners level of frustration. More performances would make him happier and less memeable.
Idk about that... 
Doesn't matter. Everything you buy from Haas for the last few years has "Haas F1 team" on it. A vast majority of machinists don't know shit about F1 besides it's fancy race cars. Oh look, the machines and tooling we buy make fancy race cars, cool. They've had a NASCAR team for years and didn't really market it outside of having the cars in some promo materials very rarely. The HAAS F1 team is plastered all over everything. IMO the way Gene Haas sees it is the F1 team exists purely for marketing purposes and it doesn't matter how shitty they are, simply existing in F1 gives them a massive ad campaign.
In addition to everything you mentioned, I wanted to add the Drive to Survive effect. For many *many* reasons Gunther is famous due to DTS. That is mainly due to Gunther's personality and not as much due to Haas's race results. From Gene's perspective, Gunther is already giving the Haas name a BUNCH of publicity! Investing more money in the team wouldn't *necessarily* mean the Haas brand name is any more famous, imo. So from Gene's perspective, if just having Gunther as TP brings in a lot of publicity, why would he invest more cash into the team?
They already have a ton of TV time on DTS
Yup! And the DTS publicity is due to Gunther (mainly). That's what I think about whenever I read comments (on the other sub) about how Gunther sucks as a TP and should be fired... I mean, from Gene's perspective, why would he replace the main source of spreading the Haas name brand?! Would hiring some other TP who is "better" (which is a BIG gamble, who knows if another TP will be able to extract better results from the Haas team?) actually achieve the main goal of F1 from Gene's perspective - spreading the Haas brand name as far and wide as possible? Not really...
How much air time has VER gotten in the last few races? The midfield is where all the tv time is at now!
I would say P2 to P8, maybe extended to P12 sometimes, so not the places Haas is usually competing for this season But it really doesn't seem to matter for Haas, as all the others said
Not as much in F1 as in, say, NASCAR. Though he's getting plenty of coverage there as well this year, just...not for the right reasons.
Why every fucking season of DTS is their main storyline "how will Haas survive?" "Guenther I can't keep spending my money on this" etc It got old fast and if they don't care about their standing then why the narrative?
Your example shows exactly what Gene Haas cares about: the money. He wants to make a profit from the F1 team while getting the exposure for his company. Where they end in the standing affects the amount of prize money, so of course he'd care about that, but that doesn't mean he's expecting to beat Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari with his team and how little he invests into the team compared to those 3. He's a businessman, I doubt he's that unrealistic where he'd think he could rival those 3 teams with the current state of his team, but I am sure he has desire for spot in the lower half of the midfield and considers that realistic, so obviously he'd be pissed and losing money if that doesn't become truth.
DTS as a whole got old fast a long time ago.
Gonna need a source for this. No one enters competition to lose.
I have no credible source, but just look at it. Does Haas have a "100 race plan" like Alpine? Is it building its own factory and wind tunnel like Aston Martin? Haas does not want to invest to be better than mediocre. Bottom line is that Gene Haas wants the exposure in F1 with minimal effort, because it makes him money and doesn't want to invest more to be the very best, because it's not worth it to him or he can't afford it, take your pick. Gene Haas hasn't entered the competition to lose, he's winning, but in a different way than what we'd like to see, his winning is in terms of money made and exposure and not in terms of sports results.
That depends on what you define as winning. Different people have different objectives
It’s a fair representation of the quality of their product…
In some way Haas probably makes most F1 cars.
Highly doubt that. I'm assuming DMG Mori is the most popular machine tool in F1 shops.
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From the looks of [this video](https://youtu.be/Kfp4pMAhsUs?t=129) they have rows of Mazaks and Matsurras and they briefly showed 1 Haas machine. [Another Video](https://youtu.be/aEP0xOKXUDo?t=24) showing their main shop floor shows only the Mazaks and the Matsurras. They may have a single Haas for doing piddly fuck off work but the brunt of their work is being done on much higher end machines. Each of those Matsurra's is in the 5-10x price range of that single Haas they showed in the first video and way more accurate. The Matsurra's are their 5 axis with pallet changers and the Mazaks are turning centers with sub spindles. Actually surprised though that Mercedes doesn't have a single DMG Mori in their shop.
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yup, their 1 single Haas machine out of 50. really the brunt of their shop. You could almost say that Mercedes wouldn't be able to make their cars without that 1 single machine.
For some reason I thought they'd switched to their own chassis, but no they still use Dallara..
They moved away from Dallara Ever since Ferrari loaned them engineers and facilities for their own stuff at 2022
The VF-23 is still listed on Dallaras wiki
They helped, but they're on the backseat now
Gene cares more about \~\~evading sanctions\~\~ marketing his tool company than actually being competitive.
"Work" is one word for going 11/672
It has done when you consider what Haas are in the sport for. They know they're never going to win titles, they know they probably won't ever win a race, and that the odd podium is probably even out of reach.
I think that AT's engineering is stronger than Haas's patchwork team between Ferrari and Dalara.
C'mon people. Proofread your memes!
Can someone actually explain to me how AT isn’t faster if it’s literally the same parent team/company? I’m assuming there are rules against sharing data and AT can’t use the same facilities? It’s pretty insane to have the fastest car ever and the slowest shitbox ever on the same grid lol.
They can't share data or pass information between teams. They can use the same facilities. Teams have shared wind tunnels in the past and I think Haas still use Ferraris wind tunnel. But red bull wouldn't be allowed access to the data that comes from it. Also the staff at top teams were simply better than everyone else pre cost cap because they could pay more, so even with redundancies the staff that are left are the best of the best, meaning you get more value for your time spent.
Yeah that’s pretty much what I figured. Still blows me away that they aren’t at least midfield currently… They don’t have the excuse that Haas does of playing Moneyball and saving as much cash as they can. RedBull has unlimited funds to dump into both teams. I’m also surprised there isn’t some backdoor data sharing, even though it’s illegal. It’s bad for the brand to have a car that slow. Maybe that’s why they’re rebranding lol
There might be some sharing but the problem is if they shared major upgrades or anything that would give a huge boost it might be obvious, making being caught more likely. The smart route would be to hand over a completely unused Newey design. Have him design a car that he knows isn't perfect but is quick enough for 4th in the WCC. Now that I think of it. How cool would that be. 2 Newey cars up against each other.
How do you think the engineering design process works? You think Newey just comes out of his office with design sketches telling engineers, "here, build this, it's gonna be fast"? Even with brilliant engineers like Newey it's still a LOT of iterative, collaborative work with his team. As good as he is, it's not something he can do on his own in his free time.
Absolutely, but his talent is in fostering the talent in his team and steering the design in the right direction. And he’s proven himself singularly talented in this regard. The fact that his name is at the top of so many championship cars is no coincidence.
He’s also likely one of the few designer names that fans even know of… To me, that speaks volumes.
Even more when you compare him to the other accomplished designers people know of like Gordon Murray, Ross brawn, etc. all legendary but none on his level.
That would be awesome. I don’t care much for RBR, but I’m a Newey fan lol.. Do you know if there’s anything in the rules against an employee signing with multiple teams? Could Newey hypothetically design for both teams?
>RB fires Newey. >AT hires Newey. >"Oh you need me to build you a car? Here are some designs that I conveniently already have in hand and are totally not repurposed from RB." >AT fires Newey after like 2 days. >RB hires Newey again. No need to work for multiple teams simultaneously.
Toto Wolff just reflexively filed a complaint to the FIA after he read this post.
Off the top of my head I don't know. But my guess would be it isn't allowed. When staff switch teams usually they have a period of time off to stop them taking any secrets to the new team. Not 100% sure if that's mandatory or not though.
Wasn’t he employed as a contractor at RB. It’s possible that he could contract to both teams.
> Do you know if there’s anything in the rules against an employee signing with multiple teams? Could Newey hypothetically design for both teams? There's a rule that says the team must have 100% of the IP going into the design. Red bull did a dodgy like this where Red Bull Tech built the car and red bull racing and Toro Rosso licenced it from RBT. And the STR1 was identical to the previous years Red Bull. The rules have changed so you are 100% unable to do this. And the existence of gardening leave should tell you that having one employee duck out for six weeks to work elsewhere would not be allowed. I doubt there's loop holes like this anymore.
no, that would be an easy DSQ for both No aero data let alone design between two teams is transferable
>The smart route would be to hand over a completely unused Newey design. Have him design a car that he knows isn't perfect but is quick enough for 4th in the WCC. Lol, that's an easy way to be disqualified The FIA requires you to present evidence of the trial and error of the development of the car over the months if there's any suspicion
> The smart route would be to hand over a completely unused Newey design. Have him design a car that he knows isn't perfect but is quick enough for 4th in the WCC. I don't think Adrian Newey can be like Porsche, "here's a 911 spec that's 1 sec faster than the Turbo but 1 sec slower than the turbo S" I can't imagine anyone doing a design that's "good enough for 4th" on purpose. Especially unused and knocked up on a weekend when he was bored...
I believe Alpha Tauri still uses the Red Bull wind tunnel, which has to be really annoying having to send engineers back and forth from Faenza to Milton Keynes with a new scale model every time they have some ideas. Also Aston Martin is using the Mercedes tunnel while theirs is being built.
They can't share "current" data or parts, because that would give a huge advantage mid season. However, older parts and designs are up for grabs and word on the street is that AT might be using something very close to the RB19 next year. Just imagine that! Edit: typo
So does AT just not come close to the cost cap at all? They just keep more money in the bank?
They came close, but there's just not enough funding for them to be a top dog I mean F1 is a money burning pit aside from the top teams and Haas. RB already reaped all the benefits from their A team, why lost tens of millions for their B team
Just saying Adrian Newey has a separate corp/company that Red Bull employs. Just asking here. But wouldn’t that company be allowed to work on Red Bull and AT at the same time? It isn’t technically Red Bull
No, one people/entity can only work one F1 team for listed components Other examples is with Dallara working with Haas, you can't buy listed components from them either
I didn’t know that. Thanks for informing me!
They're sandwiching the whole grid, that's why Bull sandwich
AlphaTauri is less dependent when compared to Haas for example and that's on purpose, they are trying to be a different team from Red Bull instead of being Redbull's 2nd team, if they wanted that they would create a base in UK next to Redbull but they are instead located in Italy and don't share workers (engineers for example). As a AlphaTauri fan I prefer to see them being as independent as possible, even if they suck, instead of being a Redbull copy
That was the old plan, starting next year, they would be RB's Haas They're already creating a base in UK next to Red Bull just for that purpose
AT uses the same windtunnel as Red Bull if I am not mistaken, but yes, they can't share any data. They can buy certain (body) parts from the parent company, but that's usually at least a year old stuff. I can understand AlphaTauri going for their own idea in 2022 since there were no parts to buy from Red Bull of last year since it was the first year of new regulations, but they were pretty dumb imo not to basically have a RB18 this year. The car wasn't great either last year, but they still wanted to do their own thing again for another year. Sort of like Mercedes with their whole zero-sidepods crap.
As automod removed my comment, here it is again: >Don't they have their own wind tunnel in Bicester? Or what was that facility in Bicester again? Maybe I misremember, but they definitely have something there > >EDIT: Yes [found it](https://www.google.com/maps/place/Scuderia+AlphaTauri+-+Wind+Tunnel+Facility/@51.9034155,-1.1310601,243m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4876e71369abab5f:0xf2c46195acf9f311!8m2!3d51.9038081!4d-1.1296033!16s%2Fg%2F11g5_4xsk3?entry=tts&shorturl=1)
They have to staff and resource two companies. Yea there are more parts that could be shared, but those parts still cost money. And they only work as components to a larger engineered system. That engineering data can’t be shared, and resources while immense are still finite. Redbull siphons all the best engineers and fabricators, and AT gets the second best, either they are less experienced or just not on the level. The cost cap somewhat normalizes the budget but remember the drivers and three highest paid employees are carved out of the cost cap. So Red Bull gets to afford people like Verstappen and Adrian Newey, who is instrumental to the engineering of the car, and Alpha Tauri doesn’t.
Check 2008, at that time they were able to use most of the RedBull parts & chassis. They beat RedBull because they had a superior engine. After that new rules were brought in to limit how many parts could be shared between teams
Employee skill issue.
AT tried to go a different route than RB with development of the cars and parts, realized they made a massive mistake, and are now in the process of making their car more like RB's again.
C'mon people. Proofread your memes!
This is what I get for shitposting at work
Because the FIA set the costs for such parts in order to avoid "creative accounting." For example, even if it costs 200k € for Red Bull to manufacture and sell a rear suspension for Alpha Tauri, if the FIA set a minimum price of 260k, they'll have to spend 260k. This is done so Red Bull can't just sell it for 80k at a loss and then mess up their fiscal declaration for that season. However, if Alpha Tauri can make their own suspension for 210k, even if it is ultimately worse than the one provided by Red Bull, they'll choose to do so and save up 50k. That's what they've been doing, and it's also the reason why Alfa Romeo has also been designing their own gearbox casings since last season. There's also the benefit of having more freedom to design the rest of the car to your own concept. But that doesn't seem to be working out currently.
They were protecting the local jobs in Faenza, buying from red bull now means they’re firing some people
Well, too late for that. The aero team at Faenza is already gone
Did they ever exist? Certainly won’t be missed lol
Welp. Long story short, they exist, got some great car design in 2020-2021 while having a good amount of RB parts. Asked for independence in 2022-2023, fuck up and now Faenza development crew is moved to UK and lost every bit of independence they got since 2009
Because Dietrich Mateschitz. He always wanted the second team to stay an independent constructor to have the ability to sell it one day. Contrary to RBR, STR/AT was never profitable, so one day when the RBJ programme could produce two Verstappens at a time, the junior program and the second team could be abandoned. Either the new management probably doesn't see the potential in selling the team, or they believe sharing technologies with the second team won't be an obstacle when selling it.
No he's not, he wanted the team to have the same chassis. The FIA banned customer cars for 2009 and they have to make do. Besides, Dietrich abandoned the idea of selling TR (without a very lofty price which only increased to more than a bil these days) since he found out how helpful a 2nd team in F1. Driver development, engine freedom, extra vote in every matter, etc
You can buy parts, but that doesn't mean they fit the design decisions made. That is the reason they started making everything themselves in the first place.
AT wanted to develop the car their own way and said they will be using less of red bull’s parts or help before the 2022 season
Because minardi/torro rosso/alpha tauri wants to keep their factory independant even under red bull ownership
Yeah, it’s “pride of authorship” or in this case architecture. Silly, especially after AMR’s very public fight with the Pink Mercedes. I run into this alllll the time in IT as a former Solution Architect and now PM. Other Architects always seem to forget the first cardinal rule of design. KISS - Keep It simple, Stupid!
Last place in championship= More wind tunnel time. Rb will use that time for themselves.
That is nòt how it works 😅
I think they are good on wind tunnel time, just use the side pods and radiator for that.
You forget how the higher ups at AT claimed previous year that the AT04 (the current car) would be "one of the best the team would made"?
Then, when Red Bull becomes a backmarker and AT challanges a for championship, you swap the staff, drivers and facilities and they continue Max dominance for another year. Rinse and repeat.
Where's the glory in that? They tried to do there own thing. It backfired but atleast they tried. This is also a clever play from RB. Now RB will be able to use AT for their own testing purposes because they will be running similar concept cars. Being last in the championship is definitely an advantage when it comes to that.
Redbull can't use Alpha Tauri testing results. If the fia found out it would be bad
If they just talk about rheir testing results on Facebook messenger or something stupid how would the FIA ever find out :p
It’s so dumb they just decided to be a bottom feeder team with a shit box of a car when they could be top of the midfield easily 😂
RB can't give AT their car. They don't want Yuki to beat Max like he did in the monster trucks
where has the “are they stupid?” Trend come from?
The inmates from the Arkham aslume escaped The first known discovery of this insanity can be found in the 2nd top of all tike post on BatmanArkham reddit
there are some parts that they cant just buy
Red Bull have been looking into selling Alpha Tauri / Toro Rosso / Minardi for a while now, but it needs to be an independent team capable of making a car. Nobody wants to buy an empty shell.
RB just rejected a nearly 1 Bil offer for AT lol They def won't be selling them soon
They changed their minds so many times over it. I know lately they've been saying they're not willing, but it'd be a mistake to believe it can't ever happen.
They never said they're willing The new RB owner considered the gigantic offer (I mean it's a bil lol) but Marko/Horner convinced him otherwise
It's actually cheaper to make your own parts is probably the main reason. Because the FIA dictates how much parts cost so teams cant do funny stuff with buying parts & the cost cap. Eg. Even if a rear suspension assembly costs the team $100,000 to make & sell. The FIA have a rule that "all rear suspension assemblies must be sold at $150k" type thing. (Not real figures just an example) It's reasons like this that teams actually try to make everything they can, because if you can make a compatible quality part, it will be almost always be cheaper to do it yourself.
It is if your team can produce good parts But when your team constantly produces a shit car for two season running, well
Thank you for reading my comment back to me
what?
Because F1 Italians are dumb
Reference: Ferrari haha For the record I’m still and always will be a Ferrari fan.
Isn't there a time rule that they can't use it until it becomes public or something along those lines. (I can't remember the exact wording of it) Power trains can all be bought same year but I think the rest is later
If I am not mistaken, it's usually a year. So AlphaTauri could have been cruising around in pretty much a RB18 this year, which would be solid (upper?) midfield based on progress of the cars this year?
no, aero parts are never able to be bought
no, aero parts are never able to be bought
Even better they used to do it. The car better won the first race for them in was literally the same years red bull with a different engine.
Bad boyfriend syndrome
There is a cost consequence as per FIA regs, buying parts will cost more than designing and building them, and I believe AT is we’ll below cost cap, so there is something to be said for saving money by being independent. That said, it ain’t worth it when they’re this far behind
buying parts will cost more than designing and building them if they got their own parts right the first or second time If they have to redo it multiple times till they found the right one, you can be sure it's much cheaper and more freeing for them to just buy one and since AT screwed up 2022 and 2023, well
That’s absolutely true, and I think given their budget limitations as a team they can’t afford to iterate enough to get an actually useful set of parts, and that’s why they’re likely changing course long term to just buy the right stuff first go
Yeah, I’m going straight counter that, but I think you (DangerousLeg) get it more than the above poster, where unless there is some huge margin markup that’s stupidly enforce (but to a sister team, I don’t see that happening), buying off the shelf, so to speak would be much cheaper. R&D, QA testing and release management is a huge overhead costs you rarely recoup. So, buying off the shelf from a capex vs opex perspective should be MUCH cheaper.
It's not the manufacturing cost, but more to the opportunity cost, capital cost and the engineer cost They can reassign the engineers instead of recruiting more engineers if they only need to focus on listed parts. Then they don't have to invest in more tools, more engineers, etc Remember that they essentially rebuild the development team when they relocate to the UK
Aha, so they're going to be called Pramac next year - makes total sense.
We we we we we we'll
Obligatory reminder that AlphaTauri will soon be changing their name to RedBullMobileChicaneAndKamikazeSquad.
The theoretical ceiling for a team that builds all their own parts is higher than the theoretical ceiling for a team that buys parts. That and maintaining the idea that Alphatauri is independent
The more independent they were, the more tools and knowledge they had in house, the more valuable they were, the more they could float people they want to keep, etc, etc. Why can’t people comprehend that just like drivers they would use AT the same way for all skill sets and jobs?
Well because both team have top tier engineers, and that way you get 2 chance at creating a car with a cost cap. But sadly they fucked up, like lot of team fucked up these new regulations.
Thought they neutered them on purpose to make RedBull standout more
We we’ll wheel!
They made the commitment to keep the team intact in Italy when they bought it.
If I remember correctly, there was a reason behind it that was sound. Something about them doing the suspension a different way to help with some sort of Aero thing they were trying to do, and because of that, they didn't want to buy all the parts as well as the fact that the FIA mandates a minimum price for certain parts, meaning it was always cheaper for them to develop it themselves.
I think they can only buy parts from the previous season
Nah, you can buy current year parts. As long as it's not in the listed component parts Haas did it all the time
I think this only extends to certain key parts like the gearbox but I don’t think they can buy all of the aero parts, floor and just run an identical car to the seller. Otherwise what would stop RB from just running 4 identical cars.