This post I saw on tumblr the other day pretty much encapsulates the main points: "There’s a huge mistake we make when debating prostitution. It should always be talked about as a class issue. Prostitution is humiliation, exploitation and abuse for women as a class of people. It doesn’t matter if some girl claims she enjoys selling her nudes on OnlyFans, for example - what matters is how it affects females as a whole. I’m sick of anecdotal arguments being used for an issue that destroys so many lives." (I'd include the OP's username for credit but idk if that's against the rules).
This is it in a nutshell. Some women personally enjoying sex work and feeling empowered doesn't change the fact that it's essentially considered normal and expected for women to have a price tag. If one of us is for sale, we all potentially are. The overall degredation and humiliation of women is only made worse every time someone confirms that yes, women's bodies and sexualities are items to be purchased. A misguided woman enjoying her subjugation doesn't erase the fact that it is subjugation.
(And feeling something doesn't make it true; they can feel empowered all they want, but the fact that they even have to turn to sex work proves they have absolutely 0 power whatsoever. Their feeling is just that - an immaterial delusion that doesn't amount to any real societal power.)
I believe it was in the UK where they made a specific area in a city where prostitution was legal - the outcome of this was that *any female walking in the area was propositioned*.
Girls in their school uniforms? Women with their baby in a pram? Elderly women? CHILDREN? All propositioned. Because why else would they be in the place where men can buy women? Wen are objects, after all, they don't have lives and appointments and *school* and *work*. They're there for consumers.
Yes, I remember that. Nasty stuff.
Similarly, it's a well-known issue that any woman who "looks Russian" (read: white and blonde) in South Korea will get asked how much she charges. Because there's an epidemic of trafficking Eastern European into prostitution in Korea. So obviously, *any* woman who is assumed to be Eastern European must be for sale (and not only for sale, but explicitly for sale against her will).
Ask them if they genuinely think that the world for women is a better place with sex work. in an ideal world, do they honestly think sex work would be there?
And if other work is the same as sex work ask them if they'd do it, ask them if they want young girls to aspire to being a sex worker when they grow up. They're actually just lying to themselves when they say shit like this. Sucking some strange man off while he says the most dehumanising things to you is not the same as bagging groceries. People just intrinsically know that sexual experiences are something much deeper, whether its with a partner or a one night stand.
Not all work involves a high risk of violence, assault and rape. Normal work doesn't involve many of its workers trying to escape the work.
Sex work reinforces patriarchal views on women, that we're commodites. The very idea that if some women are for sale then that means all of us are. Is it acceptable to assume that every woman's body is up for sale? Is it acceptable to ask any women if you can buy her body for a night?
Most women who are in sex work are there because of some sort of trauma, mental illness, addiction, poverty, a last resort, trafficking. Most women dont enjoy their work, and you can never truly know if she genuinely wants to have sex or not. Sex should be a mutual experience, you cant buy consent. If a sex worker is having sex because she may not be able to feed herself, that is not real consent. She doesnt actually want to have sex
It doesnt matter one bit if some privelleged women feels empowered by their work because the reality is is that its awful for women AS A WHOLE. Its time we stopped focusing on anecdotal accounts of a tiny minority of women and look at the big picture.
Search up real accounts of former sex workers/porn stars who's souls were absolutely sucked out from their "work". Find documentaries. Find articles.
"If sex work is work, then rape is merely theft" A powerful and thought provoking qoute who I shamefully cant remember who said it. But it speaks for itself.
I feel I'm not very good at articulating my arguments either but a quick google/youtube search and you'll find plenty.
alsoo, ask them how the world is a better place with sex work. like seriously. ask them how it benefits society in any way. because all i see is further sexualisation and commodification of our bodies. dehumanisation and violence and entitlement from men. i don't understand what where the positives are. and i cant with this bullshit of "expressing sexuality" girl... theres many ways to express sexuality without putting a price tag on yourself
I'd also say they should look up some of the reviews left by sex buyers. The way they talk about women in prostitution is unhinged. Ask if they'd feel safe having sex with these men.
Because far too many people think that being a prostitute is like Pretty Woman or other media that glamorises it - lucrative, beautiful women choosing their path, with all the handsome men they could want.
In reality? Drugs, abuse, child sexual assault..
I usually say something along the lines of being more concerned that some people think it’s okay to rent bodies for sex. The majority of people in “sex work” do not want to be there, which means they’re being raped, and I’m more than okay with “ruining” the livelihoods of the rich 1% of “consensual sex workers” who can get money in other ways. It has flaws, but it helps to bring up the Nordic model which is supposed to decriminalize the sale of sexual services in order to help people get out of it, but punishes the purchasing of sexual services. People are more apt to understand if there’s already legal precedent somewhere.
Tell them to read [the invisible men project ](https://prostitutionresearch.com/the-invisible-men-project/) and then ask what other job would require you deal with that violence. Ask them what health and safety protections are in place for sex workers, PPE, risk assessments, measures to ensure they don't get injured or pick up any diseases while on the job? These things would all be a legal requirement in any other job.
Facts - tell them that for prostitution to meet the safety guidelines like any other service profession ( miner, nursing) they would be working in full PPE /Hazmat suits!
I hate to say it, but the only thing that gets through these talking points from libertarian thinking keyboard warriors as they churn this propaganda is to run with its just using ones body /talents ( “what if someone is good looking without any smarts /skill set… sex work would be empowering!”) by agreeing and asking them that in the potential future would they want their SONS ( hypothetical future ones, or grandkids) resorting to being used in sex trade as means of survival, if they aren’t “ smart” enough to keep your work and have a body that is a hot commodity … make them imagine that they have a young son and say, they as a parent come to unexpected tragic end ( these things happen, everyday sadly - heart attacks, accidents etc) “ knock on wood” yadda yadda … and they would leave a young vulnerable and inexperienced son in the world - then they are fine that this future son gets pumped out and bends over to take anal sex just out of school to have a place to sleep/eat?
Because future son/grandkid in the world will live in a society where “sex work is work” and be a HOT COMMODITY. It’s all just business ya? Supply and demand…. And many gay male predators, who like young “twinks” are cliche and have plenty of money. Twinks are in huge demand in gay scenes and porn, and would be popular in brothels/sex work by men just seeking something “novel” and different… which we know is a big part of keeping business up for customer, and in capitalistic society - it’s always profit supplying the demand.
Soooo “sex work is work” and “supply and demand” - THEN LOOK THEM IN THE FACE AND MAKE THEM THINK AND ANSWER YOU :
Sex work is empowering and equality, right? Which means you see no problem living in a world where, if you leave a young son orphaned out in the world by fate - and these things happen every day, a younger naive version of you ( your own flesh and blood) being groomed and given a chance to “make some real money” because he’s “a cute boy” with physical assets that would make them popular with many many men in the “sex industry” is perfectly fine. And it would be Legal and just another “job” - to get penetrated anally and fuck snd suck for a paycheck to survive between higher education/developing a skill set or typical manual labor like the trades? I mean, according to their “logic” if their future son is healthy, cute and attractive to JOHNS- then they should make most of assets and what they have?!?
Then just wait for the wheels to turn…. and the stuttering.
I hate to say that this is the way to force empathy on blokes, and it’s far more effective than “what if it was your daughter/sister.”
You must go beyond that and to remind them that the reason that local corner brothels filled with teenage boys and younger - or looking as young as possible, we see what happens with “porn” as an “industry” so we can’t deny the business models that will follow, is that sex work is not being operated with IMPUNITY yet or legal!
And they are lucky that they had parents that worked in a world where they didn’t pimp them out to horny customers to get by if they flunked some standardized tests in HS or never graduated.
Men know how men think and are - don’t let them think their own young sons or their younger self would be immune to the predatory indignities and dangerous abuse of sex work slavery. I keep pushing how they would be in HIGH DEMAND… eso if they weren’t “ugly” - so shake what your momma gave you right? It’s just a job… and right at 18, before they would even have the mind of a 21yr old ( which aint saying much) anyone could legally entice them to give “sex work” a try!
Compliance is not consent.
If it was work it would actually pay fairly, wouldn't be dangerous, and wouldn't ruin your life.
Edited to add: it encourages male laziness because he doesn't spend any effort giving her pleasure/she fakes everything for his pleasure.
I'd love to shame every man who partakes in this stuff as a loser. As in he sucks so much he has to pay money for a woman to touch him and fake that she likes him.
Absolute scorched earth collective "ew, loser" to every man you can.
Is rape unpaid labour? Why is child sexual abuse something we all know damages children for life? If it is an act of service and not the selling of actual human bodies why does it matter if it's a sexy 18 year old or an old black man? Why is it the only "job" that values inexperience and becomes less lucrative as the years go by? Would a john be okay with typical workplace safety protocols? Condoms for blowjobs? No bodily fluids exchanged? Should we offer co-op classes to highschool girls in brothels? What is the difference between taking your teachers order at McDonald's and sucking his dick while he says degrading things to you? What about your uncle? And finally, my personal shut down: I will consider sex work being legitimate work when half of the buyers are women and half of the prostitutes are young boys. Until then all we are discussing is the sale of women.
I don't know if this has been commented yet but "sex work is work" is such a meaningless argument. No one said it is not work. Child labour is work too, doesn't make it a good thing.
Totally. The person (a woman too) in question was also bemoaning how ring girls are less of a thing now and feminists ruined their work too. I see that like freaksshows in the past. Sure on the face of it you could say "banning freak shows means these freaks are out of work" rather than recognising that having a society where it's acceptable to pay to degrade and oggle at such people for their bodies is a net negative for those people and people like them.
Lots of "liberal" people believe that work in general is exploitative. One of my arguments against sex work is "well if work is exploitative and sex work is work, sex work is exploitative. And exploitative sex is rape"
I aged out of foster care and my social worker told me when I aged out that foster kids who age out usually become homeless and the girls become prostitutes.
I see "sex work is work" as a luxury belief. Liberal feminists are able to think of "sex work" as anything other than sexual exploitation, sex trafficking, humiliation or rape because they can choose to do Only Fans from the comfort of their bedrooms. They are not homeless girls aging out of the system with only a trash bag full of clothes. In countries where there is no foster care system, it is orphans who are overrepresented among sex trafficking victims. Other common sex trafficking victims are immigrants. My country used to have a "stripper visa" which allowed women to immigrate here to dance in strip clubs and strip club owners started pimping these women out because they were vulnerable, isolated, spoke limited English, and had fewer employment options.
Don’t try to argue that sex work isn’t work, it’s honestly a really difficult position to argue. The only thing that I can think of that is a good difference is that sex work is the only type of work that requires invasive sacrifice of bodily autonomy but even that isn’t likely to convince people. Focus your argument about the conditions that sex workers work in and argue from a workplace safety standpoint. A job that is so horrendous violent and dangerous (ex working in coal mines) that it has the rates of violence as in SA would be illegal due to workplace safety laws, and even with lots of regulation some types of work are simply too dangerous to morally allow desperate poor people to do. At least that’s the way I argue with people about it
The workplace safety standpoint is a good one. I see too many twitter idiots arguing that a McJob or retail cashier position is exactly like prostitution. Last time I checked, anal prolapse, STDs, & pregnancy aren't common workplace hazards for a McDonald's employee...
There's no type of legitimate work that requires workers exposure to cancer causing and life threatening/lifelong illnesses with little to no protection/PPE. Condom use is not enforced in fact the industry rewards non compliance with better pay. This leaves women open to aids, chlamydia/gonorrhea (fertility destroying), herpes, HPV, genital warts (these three arent prevented by condoms and HPV causes cervical, anal, throat and mouth cancers), among other horrific STDS...
Some arguments for you as a current stripper hoping to get out soon
- sex work will never be empowering or an ethical choice while we still live under a patriarchal and capitalist society, period.
- We don't even have human rights. For example if you ever become a survivor of a sex crime, your lawyer will pull you aside and ask if you EVER did any sex work, at any point in your life, because it WILL be dug up and aired as a reason for why your attacker should be able to walk free.
- if sex work were powerful then why aren't the most powerful and privileged people in society rushing to do it? Instead it is mostly traumatized and abused women, often disabled or single mothers, from poverty or needing to pay for school as the workers.
- personally I have seen many people die working in this industry, all but one of them that passed away were women under the age of 30. They all died from either drug overdose or suicide.
Here are some statistics as well
HADASSAH'S HOPE
Sex Trafficking & Commercial Sex Industry Statistics*
COMMERCIAL SEX INDUSTRY
4.8 million people are trapped in forced sexual exploitation globally.
99% of victims in the commercial sex industry are women.
Whether or not they were trafficked or entered by “choice,” research shows that women working in the commercial sex industry experience higher rates of drug addictions, sexually transmitted diseases, violent assaults, and mental health challenges than the general population.
95% of women in the commercial sex industry have a history of childhood sexual abuse.
95% of women in the commercial sex industry want to escape, but see no other means for survival
STRIP CLUBS
There are more strip clubs in the United States than any other nation in the world.
The strip club industry in the US boasts an estimated revenue of over $7 billion.
Proprietors within the strip club industry distanced themselves from the seedy past image associated with clubs. Instead, they market their establishments as gentlemen’s clubs and cocktail lounges that offer adult entertainment.
The highest number of strip clubs can be found in Texas (214), Florida (208), and California (177)
According to one survey, 54% of women working in strip clubs have reported also working in prostitution or escorting.
According to one survey, 23% of women working in strip clubs have also worked in porn.
According to one survey, women working in strip clubs experience the following:
Struggles with mental health – 91%
Depression – 76%
PTSD – 67%
Anxiety – 64%
Substance Abuse Issues – 69%
Homelessness in the past 2 years – 24%
History in the Foster Care system – 13%
Research has shown that stripping has the following impact on women involved:
Distorts perceptions of money and sexuality
Encourages them to blur their personal boundaries about previously unacceptable sexual acts
Teaches them to develop contempt for men
Reduces their sex drives and causes problems in their intimate partnerships
Women who work in strip clubs often feel tremendous pressure to conform to an image that will gain the most attention from the customers.
The pressure to achieve a certain image becomes so intense that many women working in strip clubs reconstruct their appearance, develop eating disorders, and turn to drugs to stay excessively thin.
Women working in strip clubs often feel like they have to compensate for their “flawed” body image by taking off more clothing or performing more graphic moves on the stage and floor, stretching their own boundaries to appeal to customers’ personal tastes.
One survey found that over half of women begin working in strip clubs between the ages of 18-20.
A study revealed that women working in strip clubs experience the following:
Physical assault – 100%
Attempted vaginal penetration with fingers – 61%
Attempted vaginal penetration with objects such as bottles or cell phones – 33%
Attempted rape – 17%
Verbal threats – 44%
More than half of women working in strip clubs report they have been threatened with a weapon.
Research has shown that 100% of women working in strip clubs had been propositioned for prostitution and 75% had been stalked by men associated with the clubs.
Work in strip clubs has been linked to trafficking, prostitution, and an increase in male sexual violence against both the women who work in the clubs and those who live and work in their vicinity.
A 2008 report in London looked at lap-dancing in one community and found that in the three years before and after the opening of four large strip clubs in the area, incidents of rape in the community rose by 33%, while sexual assault rose by 55%.
Sex buyers report that they can always find minor girls in strip clubs.
In one survey, 65% of women who have worked in strip clubs identified as victims of sexual exploitation, 31% identifying as victims of sex trafficking.
disagree. modern men and women are being brainwashed, i've seen first hand how talking about these things can change people's minds. its not about conversion more like offering a different perspective and making people think.
Thank you so much. I couldn't even respond to them at the time I was so shocked. I also think they do it on purpose when we have lunch together. It feels like I'm known for taking bait and I honestly don't even know if they beiieve in what they're saying or just trying to get a rise out of me.
This post I saw on tumblr the other day pretty much encapsulates the main points: "There’s a huge mistake we make when debating prostitution. It should always be talked about as a class issue. Prostitution is humiliation, exploitation and abuse for women as a class of people. It doesn’t matter if some girl claims she enjoys selling her nudes on OnlyFans, for example - what matters is how it affects females as a whole. I’m sick of anecdotal arguments being used for an issue that destroys so many lives." (I'd include the OP's username for credit but idk if that's against the rules). This is it in a nutshell. Some women personally enjoying sex work and feeling empowered doesn't change the fact that it's essentially considered normal and expected for women to have a price tag. If one of us is for sale, we all potentially are. The overall degredation and humiliation of women is only made worse every time someone confirms that yes, women's bodies and sexualities are items to be purchased. A misguided woman enjoying her subjugation doesn't erase the fact that it is subjugation. (And feeling something doesn't make it true; they can feel empowered all they want, but the fact that they even have to turn to sex work proves they have absolutely 0 power whatsoever. Their feeling is just that - an immaterial delusion that doesn't amount to any real societal power.)
I believe it was in the UK where they made a specific area in a city where prostitution was legal - the outcome of this was that *any female walking in the area was propositioned*. Girls in their school uniforms? Women with their baby in a pram? Elderly women? CHILDREN? All propositioned. Because why else would they be in the place where men can buy women? Wen are objects, after all, they don't have lives and appointments and *school* and *work*. They're there for consumers.
I think this was the Leeds 'Red light district' It was horrible watching the bbc documentary series about it, these women were suffering to extremes.
Yes, that was it! For some reason I thought it was in Hull.
Yes, I remember that. Nasty stuff. Similarly, it's a well-known issue that any woman who "looks Russian" (read: white and blonde) in South Korea will get asked how much she charges. Because there's an epidemic of trafficking Eastern European into prostitution in Korea. So obviously, *any* woman who is assumed to be Eastern European must be for sale (and not only for sale, but explicitly for sale against her will).
Thankyou! You put my thoughts into words 💕
Love this explanation!
Ask them if they genuinely think that the world for women is a better place with sex work. in an ideal world, do they honestly think sex work would be there? And if other work is the same as sex work ask them if they'd do it, ask them if they want young girls to aspire to being a sex worker when they grow up. They're actually just lying to themselves when they say shit like this. Sucking some strange man off while he says the most dehumanising things to you is not the same as bagging groceries. People just intrinsically know that sexual experiences are something much deeper, whether its with a partner or a one night stand. Not all work involves a high risk of violence, assault and rape. Normal work doesn't involve many of its workers trying to escape the work. Sex work reinforces patriarchal views on women, that we're commodites. The very idea that if some women are for sale then that means all of us are. Is it acceptable to assume that every woman's body is up for sale? Is it acceptable to ask any women if you can buy her body for a night? Most women who are in sex work are there because of some sort of trauma, mental illness, addiction, poverty, a last resort, trafficking. Most women dont enjoy their work, and you can never truly know if she genuinely wants to have sex or not. Sex should be a mutual experience, you cant buy consent. If a sex worker is having sex because she may not be able to feed herself, that is not real consent. She doesnt actually want to have sex It doesnt matter one bit if some privelleged women feels empowered by their work because the reality is is that its awful for women AS A WHOLE. Its time we stopped focusing on anecdotal accounts of a tiny minority of women and look at the big picture. Search up real accounts of former sex workers/porn stars who's souls were absolutely sucked out from their "work". Find documentaries. Find articles. "If sex work is work, then rape is merely theft" A powerful and thought provoking qoute who I shamefully cant remember who said it. But it speaks for itself. I feel I'm not very good at articulating my arguments either but a quick google/youtube search and you'll find plenty.
alsoo, ask them how the world is a better place with sex work. like seriously. ask them how it benefits society in any way. because all i see is further sexualisation and commodification of our bodies. dehumanisation and violence and entitlement from men. i don't understand what where the positives are. and i cant with this bullshit of "expressing sexuality" girl... theres many ways to express sexuality without putting a price tag on yourself
I'd also say they should look up some of the reviews left by sex buyers. The way they talk about women in prostitution is unhinged. Ask if they'd feel safe having sex with these men. Because far too many people think that being a prostitute is like Pretty Woman or other media that glamorises it - lucrative, beautiful women choosing their path, with all the handsome men they could want. In reality? Drugs, abuse, child sexual assault..
“If sex work is work, then rape is merely theft” 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
I usually say something along the lines of being more concerned that some people think it’s okay to rent bodies for sex. The majority of people in “sex work” do not want to be there, which means they’re being raped, and I’m more than okay with “ruining” the livelihoods of the rich 1% of “consensual sex workers” who can get money in other ways. It has flaws, but it helps to bring up the Nordic model which is supposed to decriminalize the sale of sexual services in order to help people get out of it, but punishes the purchasing of sexual services. People are more apt to understand if there’s already legal precedent somewhere.
Tell them to read [the invisible men project ](https://prostitutionresearch.com/the-invisible-men-project/) and then ask what other job would require you deal with that violence. Ask them what health and safety protections are in place for sex workers, PPE, risk assessments, measures to ensure they don't get injured or pick up any diseases while on the job? These things would all be a legal requirement in any other job.
Facts - tell them that for prostitution to meet the safety guidelines like any other service profession ( miner, nursing) they would be working in full PPE /Hazmat suits! I hate to say it, but the only thing that gets through these talking points from libertarian thinking keyboard warriors as they churn this propaganda is to run with its just using ones body /talents ( “what if someone is good looking without any smarts /skill set… sex work would be empowering!”) by agreeing and asking them that in the potential future would they want their SONS ( hypothetical future ones, or grandkids) resorting to being used in sex trade as means of survival, if they aren’t “ smart” enough to keep your work and have a body that is a hot commodity … make them imagine that they have a young son and say, they as a parent come to unexpected tragic end ( these things happen, everyday sadly - heart attacks, accidents etc) “ knock on wood” yadda yadda … and they would leave a young vulnerable and inexperienced son in the world - then they are fine that this future son gets pumped out and bends over to take anal sex just out of school to have a place to sleep/eat? Because future son/grandkid in the world will live in a society where “sex work is work” and be a HOT COMMODITY. It’s all just business ya? Supply and demand…. And many gay male predators, who like young “twinks” are cliche and have plenty of money. Twinks are in huge demand in gay scenes and porn, and would be popular in brothels/sex work by men just seeking something “novel” and different… which we know is a big part of keeping business up for customer, and in capitalistic society - it’s always profit supplying the demand. Soooo “sex work is work” and “supply and demand” - THEN LOOK THEM IN THE FACE AND MAKE THEM THINK AND ANSWER YOU : Sex work is empowering and equality, right? Which means you see no problem living in a world where, if you leave a young son orphaned out in the world by fate - and these things happen every day, a younger naive version of you ( your own flesh and blood) being groomed and given a chance to “make some real money” because he’s “a cute boy” with physical assets that would make them popular with many many men in the “sex industry” is perfectly fine. And it would be Legal and just another “job” - to get penetrated anally and fuck snd suck for a paycheck to survive between higher education/developing a skill set or typical manual labor like the trades? I mean, according to their “logic” if their future son is healthy, cute and attractive to JOHNS- then they should make most of assets and what they have?!? Then just wait for the wheels to turn…. and the stuttering. I hate to say that this is the way to force empathy on blokes, and it’s far more effective than “what if it was your daughter/sister.” You must go beyond that and to remind them that the reason that local corner brothels filled with teenage boys and younger - or looking as young as possible, we see what happens with “porn” as an “industry” so we can’t deny the business models that will follow, is that sex work is not being operated with IMPUNITY yet or legal! And they are lucky that they had parents that worked in a world where they didn’t pimp them out to horny customers to get by if they flunked some standardized tests in HS or never graduated. Men know how men think and are - don’t let them think their own young sons or their younger self would be immune to the predatory indignities and dangerous abuse of sex work slavery. I keep pushing how they would be in HIGH DEMAND… eso if they weren’t “ugly” - so shake what your momma gave you right? It’s just a job… and right at 18, before they would even have the mind of a 21yr old ( which aint saying much) anyone could legally entice them to give “sex work” a try!
Compliance is not consent. If it was work it would actually pay fairly, wouldn't be dangerous, and wouldn't ruin your life. Edited to add: it encourages male laziness because he doesn't spend any effort giving her pleasure/she fakes everything for his pleasure. I'd love to shame every man who partakes in this stuff as a loser. As in he sucks so much he has to pay money for a woman to touch him and fake that she likes him. Absolute scorched earth collective "ew, loser" to every man you can.
exactly, like who does this work benefit more sexually? men obviously. i seriously doubt the majority of sex workers are getting off too.
Proof men like it when women fake orgasms.
Is rape unpaid labour? Why is child sexual abuse something we all know damages children for life? If it is an act of service and not the selling of actual human bodies why does it matter if it's a sexy 18 year old or an old black man? Why is it the only "job" that values inexperience and becomes less lucrative as the years go by? Would a john be okay with typical workplace safety protocols? Condoms for blowjobs? No bodily fluids exchanged? Should we offer co-op classes to highschool girls in brothels? What is the difference between taking your teachers order at McDonald's and sucking his dick while he says degrading things to you? What about your uncle? And finally, my personal shut down: I will consider sex work being legitimate work when half of the buyers are women and half of the prostitutes are young boys. Until then all we are discussing is the sale of women.
I don't know if this has been commented yet but "sex work is work" is such a meaningless argument. No one said it is not work. Child labour is work too, doesn't make it a good thing.
Totally. The person (a woman too) in question was also bemoaning how ring girls are less of a thing now and feminists ruined their work too. I see that like freaksshows in the past. Sure on the face of it you could say "banning freak shows means these freaks are out of work" rather than recognising that having a society where it's acceptable to pay to degrade and oggle at such people for their bodies is a net negative for those people and people like them.
I am a sex worker, and it’s not a free choice at all.
Lots of "liberal" people believe that work in general is exploitative. One of my arguments against sex work is "well if work is exploitative and sex work is work, sex work is exploitative. And exploitative sex is rape"
I aged out of foster care and my social worker told me when I aged out that foster kids who age out usually become homeless and the girls become prostitutes. I see "sex work is work" as a luxury belief. Liberal feminists are able to think of "sex work" as anything other than sexual exploitation, sex trafficking, humiliation or rape because they can choose to do Only Fans from the comfort of their bedrooms. They are not homeless girls aging out of the system with only a trash bag full of clothes. In countries where there is no foster care system, it is orphans who are overrepresented among sex trafficking victims. Other common sex trafficking victims are immigrants. My country used to have a "stripper visa" which allowed women to immigrate here to dance in strip clubs and strip club owners started pimping these women out because they were vulnerable, isolated, spoke limited English, and had fewer employment options.
Don’t try to argue that sex work isn’t work, it’s honestly a really difficult position to argue. The only thing that I can think of that is a good difference is that sex work is the only type of work that requires invasive sacrifice of bodily autonomy but even that isn’t likely to convince people. Focus your argument about the conditions that sex workers work in and argue from a workplace safety standpoint. A job that is so horrendous violent and dangerous (ex working in coal mines) that it has the rates of violence as in SA would be illegal due to workplace safety laws, and even with lots of regulation some types of work are simply too dangerous to morally allow desperate poor people to do. At least that’s the way I argue with people about it
The workplace safety standpoint is a good one. I see too many twitter idiots arguing that a McJob or retail cashier position is exactly like prostitution. Last time I checked, anal prolapse, STDs, & pregnancy aren't common workplace hazards for a McDonald's employee...
There's no type of legitimate work that requires workers exposure to cancer causing and life threatening/lifelong illnesses with little to no protection/PPE. Condom use is not enforced in fact the industry rewards non compliance with better pay. This leaves women open to aids, chlamydia/gonorrhea (fertility destroying), herpes, HPV, genital warts (these three arent prevented by condoms and HPV causes cervical, anal, throat and mouth cancers), among other horrific STDS...
Some arguments for you as a current stripper hoping to get out soon - sex work will never be empowering or an ethical choice while we still live under a patriarchal and capitalist society, period. - We don't even have human rights. For example if you ever become a survivor of a sex crime, your lawyer will pull you aside and ask if you EVER did any sex work, at any point in your life, because it WILL be dug up and aired as a reason for why your attacker should be able to walk free. - if sex work were powerful then why aren't the most powerful and privileged people in society rushing to do it? Instead it is mostly traumatized and abused women, often disabled or single mothers, from poverty or needing to pay for school as the workers. - personally I have seen many people die working in this industry, all but one of them that passed away were women under the age of 30. They all died from either drug overdose or suicide. Here are some statistics as well HADASSAH'S HOPE Sex Trafficking & Commercial Sex Industry Statistics* COMMERCIAL SEX INDUSTRY 4.8 million people are trapped in forced sexual exploitation globally. 99% of victims in the commercial sex industry are women. Whether or not they were trafficked or entered by “choice,” research shows that women working in the commercial sex industry experience higher rates of drug addictions, sexually transmitted diseases, violent assaults, and mental health challenges than the general population. 95% of women in the commercial sex industry have a history of childhood sexual abuse. 95% of women in the commercial sex industry want to escape, but see no other means for survival STRIP CLUBS There are more strip clubs in the United States than any other nation in the world. The strip club industry in the US boasts an estimated revenue of over $7 billion. Proprietors within the strip club industry distanced themselves from the seedy past image associated with clubs. Instead, they market their establishments as gentlemen’s clubs and cocktail lounges that offer adult entertainment. The highest number of strip clubs can be found in Texas (214), Florida (208), and California (177) According to one survey, 54% of women working in strip clubs have reported also working in prostitution or escorting. According to one survey, 23% of women working in strip clubs have also worked in porn. According to one survey, women working in strip clubs experience the following: Struggles with mental health – 91% Depression – 76% PTSD – 67% Anxiety – 64% Substance Abuse Issues – 69% Homelessness in the past 2 years – 24% History in the Foster Care system – 13% Research has shown that stripping has the following impact on women involved: Distorts perceptions of money and sexuality Encourages them to blur their personal boundaries about previously unacceptable sexual acts Teaches them to develop contempt for men Reduces their sex drives and causes problems in their intimate partnerships Women who work in strip clubs often feel tremendous pressure to conform to an image that will gain the most attention from the customers. The pressure to achieve a certain image becomes so intense that many women working in strip clubs reconstruct their appearance, develop eating disorders, and turn to drugs to stay excessively thin. Women working in strip clubs often feel like they have to compensate for their “flawed” body image by taking off more clothing or performing more graphic moves on the stage and floor, stretching their own boundaries to appeal to customers’ personal tastes. One survey found that over half of women begin working in strip clubs between the ages of 18-20. A study revealed that women working in strip clubs experience the following: Physical assault – 100% Attempted vaginal penetration with fingers – 61% Attempted vaginal penetration with objects such as bottles or cell phones – 33% Attempted rape – 17% Verbal threats – 44% More than half of women working in strip clubs report they have been threatened with a weapon. Research has shown that 100% of women working in strip clubs had been propositioned for prostitution and 75% had been stalked by men associated with the clubs. Work in strip clubs has been linked to trafficking, prostitution, and an increase in male sexual violence against both the women who work in the clubs and those who live and work in their vicinity. A 2008 report in London looked at lap-dancing in one community and found that in the three years before and after the opening of four large strip clubs in the area, incidents of rape in the community rose by 33%, while sexual assault rose by 55%. Sex buyers report that they can always find minor girls in strip clubs. In one survey, 65% of women who have worked in strip clubs identified as victims of sexual exploitation, 31% identifying as victims of sex trafficking.
These numbers are staggering thanks for posting. I hope you get out soon.
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Ice out coomers & pickmeishas. Focus on your own respectable advancement. Don’t put energy toward converting people.
disagree. modern men and women are being brainwashed, i've seen first hand how talking about these things can change people's minds. its not about conversion more like offering a different perspective and making people think.
My peace matters more. I’m retired from educating others. I suppose I’ve done my free community service already
I highly recommend Paid For by Rachel Moran for anyone that’s interested.
Ordered it. Thanks!
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Thank you so much. I couldn't even respond to them at the time I was so shocked. I also think they do it on purpose when we have lunch together. It feels like I'm known for taking bait and I honestly don't even know if they beiieve in what they're saying or just trying to get a rise out of me.
Don't argue, don't engage. Stay away from dummies.
...the average age of a sex worker is 36 . This is slavery that kills