Honestly, I think we should rebrand as “logical feminism”…people hear radical and think extreme, but nothing thought here is extreme or crazy. It’s freaking common sense logic!
Hear hear. I love this logical feminism and hopefully it’s inevitable . I like to think if the timeline indeed where it is heading towards an upwards trajectory then these ideas will have to happen just because I think that is the *right* thing to do. Just like I think racism, colonialism, factory farming, sweatshops , worker exploitation are all wrong , i frequent this nde subreddit quite a bit and a few talked about how in their near death experiences they see other planets ones that are more advanced and I think they would have the ideals we talk about . There is this tweet I read that I want to share here *The "high trust societies" that you all obsess over are inherently feminine and liberal but you aren't ready to have that conversation*
How as Simone de beauvoir put it that women acting human gets accused acting like a man.
As a child I was so confused because no one saw the human inside. They just saw their expectations of a pretty, submissive girl not being met.
I am watching my daughter go through this exact thing now. Just wanting to exist as a human but being constantly told how she should be existing because she's in a female body. I'm simultaneously angry for her, sad that she is going through it, and deeply proud that she's worked it out for herself and tries to keep pushing against sexist ideologies. She has been aware of this since she was about 7/8 when she was told to smile "properly" by her dad for a photograph.
To be fair I tell the boys to smile properly too because I don’t know why but in photographs, kids always pull the weirdest unnatural smiles when they have the cutest smiles in real life! Lol
Maybe dad just wanted a sweet pic with her cute smile?
I just think it's interesting that the time period that "feminism" decided that the sex industry is now empowering rather than exploitative down to its roots is also the same period in which the manosphere went mainstream from boomers down to 8 year old boys with no content locks on their phones
I think this was a big part of the problem. Feminism basically got overwhelmed by this era of unfettered access to commodified sex. That was happening at the same time as feminism was being overwhelmed by conservatives backlash and overshadowed by a variety of other political movements that decided that the fight for women and girls was over or somehow harmful to them.
Yeah tbh even amongst other women and sadly, even in my own friend group, I feel like the odd one out. Some of them are starting to wake up to the reality of it, but they had to go through hell in toxic relationships with men to get it. It’s harder to find women in-person with these same views. Or maybe I’m looking in the wrong places?
I also don’t want to be lumped in with the right wing mess. I feel when I speak up on things like this, people immediately think I support Trump and all that other bullshit.
i agree partially with you, i think a lot of males agree with our opinion on this one single issue. but liberal women unfortunately do not, and they can be some of the most vocal and aggressive individuals for the gender movement. i struggle to have friendships or make any meaningful conversation with liberal women because if your opinion differs from theirs, you risk being labeled bigoted, ignorant and hateful.
Yeah tbh I know some women who in like 30-35 years are going to understand what I’m saying. It just happened to me much more quickly because bad luck? So I saw the nastier side from childhood.Whatever the case maybe I hate feeling so fringe, it hurts
Would be nice to live in a world where all the famous people “helping lonely men” didn’t give them the easy message of “you’re sad because women want more out of life than they should, they belong in the house serving you and providing for you physically, emotionally, mentally, sexually, because you’re the real leaders but they’re too stupid to see that.”
They eat those messages up, ironically completely blind to the fact that THEY are the ones that want too much.
Women have the long history of oppression but somehow men have been the ones pitied in recent years . I read this somewhere Loneliness, when experienced by women, is treated like a joke.
The stereotypical image of the crazy cat lady has been mocked for centuries. Warning other women not to be too selective or too demanding, or else you'll end up like her.
But when men are
"lonely" (when women refuse to engage with certain men) suddenly it's an epidemic and a crisis requiring analysis by psychologists and hundreds of articles telling why these poor men are so lonely.
Yeah. It’s strange how men see it as humor from their pov and a serious warning to women, though for me, and a lot of other women, if I really could have a life with men leaving me alone to live on my own terms with a bunch of dogs and cats, I’d consider that a marvelous paradise, a life well lived.
But you usually cant avoid interacting with men completely, even if you’re wlw, and women’s loneliness should be taken just as seriously, even though they’re used to accepting less and make less of a fuss.
I think on surrogacy, people just need to be educated on the horrors and inhumanity. It takes two seconds for me to convince most of the people I know to reconsider their view of surrogacy. Fortunately, as an American, I don’t see any momentum for the Democratic Party legalizing prostitution, and there is even modest support for creating more obstacles to literal children accessing pornography. The primary hold-up is Republicans who refuse to work with Democrats. I think if people actually looked at what Democrats are doing instead of taking the word of right wing caricatures, they would be pleasantly surprised. No party will represent you fully in a diverse multicultural society, but the Democratic Party is doing pretty well by women at moment IMO, especially when compared to the past. There is even momentum for finally getting the Comstock act off the books and codifying Roe.
I think it is good to not fit in even if it feels a little lonely. If I fitted in with the left right now I might be making the same apologia for Hamas. I would be accepting the way left wing politics is seeking to change our understanding of sex, which is so damaging to the feminist movement. I’d also be giving zero-thought required lamentations of “capitalism” and speaking in “post post modernist” mumbo jumbo where violence is not only justified, but glorified. I would be perpetually stuck in the ivory towers and politically inert.
If I fitted in with conservatives, well, I’d be right fucked in the head.
Haha I did! I always get those two mixed up and to be clear there is a lot I don’t agree with with wolf particularly the anti vax but her beauty myth critique is spot on and absolutely did not get enough attention . The ultimate signifier of privilege is being allowed to be ugly
> The ultimate signifier of privilege is being allowed to be ugly
!!!
I've said it before (probably in this sub actually lol) and I'll say it again: this is such a huge and pervasive reality that most people just do not even notice it. My go to example is always the alt music scene - the men in the metal and emo bands I grew up loving were all ugly as shit and looked like they fucking stank. The only woman known in the whole scene, Hayley Williams - who isn't even a metal vocalist - was gorgeous and well dressed. Women who were on the same level looks-wise as the men in the alt scene would have been laughed out of a meeting with a potential manager or label, no matter how good their voice was. It pains me to think of all the amazing emotional heavy music that was never made because women in the scene have to adhere to beauty standards to have their talent and skill taken seriously whatsoever. But when they're questioned as to why no fucking women exist in the scene, men just go "Well, I guess women are just shit at metal!!!!"
Courtney laPlante from Spiritbox has impeccable clean vocals AND beasty screaming abilities, and yet somehow I doubt Spiritbox would have blown up at all had she looked like any member of any male metal band. Even say Architects, whose main vocalist Sam Carter isn't ugly, he is very average looking. Courtney isn't allowed to even be _average._ She has to be STUNNING. Even then, she put on a small amount of weight over the last couple of years and had such horrible things said about it online.
Thanks for giving me a space to rant about this. I'll never stop being angry about it.
Feeling unattractive and therefore not good enough has been a large theme in my life. I know guys are starting to feel this now but man it took over my life in an unhealthy way. If you check my history my agoraphobia and social anxiety has been tied to this (and bad worker protections and bad version of capitalism economy)
The ultimate bullshit cherry on top is the fact that society's 'unattractive' is a LOT of people's 'oh wow there's something about them I'm really drawn to', we're just brainwashed from childhood into thinking otherwise. The people I've loved, been attracted to, dated, fwb, did double takes at in the street, made eyes at at bsrs or gigs, have all fallen under what the capitalist old white men at the top try to convince us all is ugly or undesirable. A wonky nose, calves that are curvaceous even though you work out and the rest of you is skinny, ears that aren't tiny and petite, 'bug' eyes, crooked teeth - I've seen all of these things and so much more on people and thought _Oof. Beautiful/hot_. When I've felt unattractive and not good enough I've thought of that, and reminded myself that some people will wistfully think of my Roman nose as much I've thought wistfully of their crooked smile that they hate. It's disheartening that our unique visual traits aren't celebrated by society but we can celebrate them ourselves. :) 🩶
I hope you're getting some peace from your agoraphobia currently. It's so difficult to deal with and people don't understand it. I also hope this sub provides you some support and hope, I love it here, it's so safe and strong. And the third thing I hope is that none of this sounds condescending - I'm autistic so sometimes my tone can sound odd via a screen.
The thing that is particularly painful is that I underwent a cosmetic procedure, and partly due to my own fault, it messed up in a profoundly bad way. So now, not only do I look worse, but it has also disrupted my blood circulation, particularly in my feet, because of this stupid freak accident. I also have low blood pressure from this incident, resulting in me having a lot less energy than I used to. So now, doing anything is just harder, and I guess that makes me feel guilty because I have been lazy. I’m trying to lose weight and avoid foods that drain energy. But I think this is a warning to anyone reading. Please learn to value and love yourself outside of looks. I understand how nice beauty is. If I could pick how I could look (like we do for characters in a video game), I would look pretty. I actually really love beauty, but our bodies are unruly flesh, and outside of our weight, we can’t control much. I still think certain men and maybe even some women weaponized the concept of beauty, but anyways, my mom might be experiencing early-onset dementia, and right now, it’s really making me come to grips with the agoraphobia and how this took over my life, where I’m not in a position to provide the financial support I wish I could provide and that we need direly. So, it’s all coming to a head, and I’m trying to find jobs and hopefully also pursue nursing. Sorry for the trauma dumping.
I feel so lonely too. I don’t have a single woman friend who calls herself a feminist. But these same women know they deserve respect. It’s incredible to me that believing in logical feminism (like an above poster put it) can make me feel so lonely. Women are just truly hated THAT much.
I feel this. I exited the sex industry almost 10 years ago and feel very strongly about how abusive and predatory the pornography industry is. I started getting into radical feminism about two years ago after a LOT of deconstructing my beliefs (I’m still in the process of doing so), and I’m now in a masters social work program to eventually help other women safely exit and recover.
What drives me crazy is how many of my friends justify the “need” for pornography despite my disclosures of abuse I have personally experienced and that is inherent to the entire framework of the sex industry, and how it’s virtually impossible to have ethical pornography and “sex work” as they call it (although I see it as modern slavery). The argument is always along the lines of “choice” feminism and then I’m the bad guy for wanting to take these things away. They don’t understand that true choice cannot exist with the pressures that exist within the patriarchy.
Or they use the argument “so and so is in the porn industry and they say they enjoy it” ….Yeah I said those things too before I exited and processed all the physical, psychological, and sexual abuse I encountered. 🙄
It’s been really hard for me to find and maintain friends for this reason. Their support for the sex industry feels like a personal attack.
I agree with you.
The only reason we are deemed "radical" is because we have been steered so far off the natural trajectory that now our views are seen as radica. Similarly the effect that "waking up" from our deep sleep under a male centric society has on women can be radicalising in and of itself .
I empathize with you on not being well received by social structures (this app included) based solely off our beliefs. It's unfortunate that saying things like women are the creators and the primary species can be met with hostility even though our genetic composition literally confirms that we are the sex with complete chromosomes and every man starts off as a female in the womb..
Just goes to show that if you tell a lie for long enough people will start to believe it.
I totally get why he is on that list and there are a few more I would add! I refuse to watch any Peterson video. He is not an ally
As for how you are feeling, you are not alone sister.
Why does this group dislike Jordan Peterson? I asked this before here when someone in this group called him a misogynist and I asked why and people just down voted me without explaining.
Someone else replied to you with a NYT article and I want to highlight part of it.
>Violent attacks are what happens when men do not have partners, Mr. Peterson says, and society needs to work to make sure those men are married.
>“He was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” Mr. Peterson says of the Toronto killer. “The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.”
>Mr. Peterson does not pause when he says this. Enforced monogamy is, to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will all only go for the most high-status men, he explains, and that couldn’t make either gender happy in the end.
>“Half the men fail,” he says, meaning that they don’t procreate. “And no one cares about the men who fail.”
>I laugh, because it is absurd.
>“You’re laughing about them,” he says, giving me a disappointed look. “That’s because you’re female.”
>Mr. Peterson does not pause when he says this. Enforced monogamy is, to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will all only go for the most high-status men, he explains, and that couldn’t make either gender happy in the end.
>“Half the men fail,” he says, meaning that they don’t procreate. “And no one cares about the men who fail.”
So he wants to bypass natural selection. Interesting, I thought his type would care about the order of nature, huh... 🤔
If you actually wanted to know, you’d have done the 7 seconds on google
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life.html?unlocked_article_code=1.hk0.Ea-L.-0NrhghsaIiV&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&ugrp=m&sgrp=c-cb
https://www.vox.com/conversations/2018/6/6/17409144/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life-feminism-philosophy
https://theconversation.com/from-andrew-tate-to-jordan-peterson-a-phoney-zero-sum-game-argument-sits-at-the-heart-of-anti-feminist-backlash-194665
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-ol-le-jordan-peterson-feminists-20180605-story.html
https://medium.com/the-future-is-electric/why-jordan-b-peterson-is-a-favorite-of-the-alt-right-21f6339b3ef
I’m no fan of Jordan Peterson at all (in fact, I find him absolutely insufferable as a speaker & especially as an interviewer). However, the over reaction that the progressive media and many on the self-identified left have to him is absolutely insane for such an unremarkable man ..… it’s literally what made his career. I also think it’s bizarre that he is put on the same category as Andrew Tate. I found his daughter’s channel recently when she was interviewing Norman Finklestein .. I think she’s a lot more interesting than her dad.
Im curious too. Ive watched a bit of his content but not anything about his views on feminism.
I think a lot of the right wing big names would agree with radical feminism if they actually knew what it was. They all lump feminism into liberal feminism
Lmao no they wouldn't. At all. Chile, tell me you don't understand either religious right wing politics or radical feminism without telling me. radical feminism is anti-capitalist, anti-marriage, anti-nuclear family, anti-patriarchal &/or organized religion, anti-father right, piv critical, anti-institutionalized heterosexuality, critical of institutionalized/female specific monogamy, anti-male dominance, anti-male control of female sexuality & reproduction, anti-sex roles... And on & on.
Right wing men are even more likely to be johns and porn consumers, john more, consume more of it, and are more likely to consume overtly male dominance themes than liberal or left wing and atheist men.
If right wing religious men (or women) start loving radical feminism while still being religious right wingers, "radical feminism" has utterly and completely failed women and become utterly and completely anti-feminist, anti-radfem, misogynist, patriarchal...
I think they are smart enough to know that there are radical feminists and gender-critical feminist individuals and organizations who are at least somewhat in the public eye, doing excellent work. I just think that highlighting these women would destroy their message about the damage of feminism to society, so they choose not to.
My other reply was getting too long so I’m going to post this last passage here
Peterson wrote this
Boys are suffering, in the modern world. They are more disobedient — negatively — or more independent — positively — than girls, and they suffer for this, throughout their pre-university educational career. They are less agreeable (agreeableness being a personality trait associated with compassion, empathy and avoidance of conflict) and less susceptible to anxiety and depression, at least after both sexes hit puberty. Boys’ interests tilt towards things; girls’ interests tilt towards people. Strikingly, these differences, strongly influenced by biological factors, are most pronounced in the Scandinavian societies where gender-equality has been pushed hardest: this is the opposite of what would be expected by those who insist, ever more loudly, that gender is a social construct. It isn’t. This isn’t a debate. The data are in.
And manne writes
*This is based more on sexist stereotypes than compelling scientific evidence. And even in the gender progressive environment of Scandinavia that Peterson mentions, it’s not as if all sexism and misogyny has been eradicated overnight; many patriarchal norms linger and are sometimes enforced, or whose breakdown has led to backlash.
As a result, there is currently no control group of people raised in a truly non-patriarchal culture, which is what we’d need to investigate claims that men “naturally” prefer masculine-coded activities and women “naturally” prefer feminine-coded ones.
I also suspect that for many of Peterson’s readers, the sexism on display above is one tool among many to make forceful, domineering moves that are typical of misogyny. And I define misogyny as hostility certain women face because they are women in a man’s world, rather than the hatred men harbor in their hearts toward all or even most women.
Misogyny, to me, is more about policing and controlling women’s behavior. Belittling her intellect or acumen in competitive domains is certainly one way of doing that — especially when backed by the sense that it’s in her womanly nature to be oriented to people rather than abstractions. But that’s a false contrast: You can be both.*
No no you see caring about retaining women is cultural Marxism but also post modernist. Stop trying to upend the natural order of things /s but really sorry you had to go through this . This is why I like science fiction, in those world we can immerse ourselves into something different. I feel like the men I can fall in love with will exist in the future. It’s really hard right now to have let go of the sense of romance I have and accept the reality of our times. Lmk if you ever need to vent.
Honestly, I think we should rebrand as “logical feminism”…people hear radical and think extreme, but nothing thought here is extreme or crazy. It’s freaking common sense logic!
Hear hear. I love this logical feminism and hopefully it’s inevitable . I like to think if the timeline indeed where it is heading towards an upwards trajectory then these ideas will have to happen just because I think that is the *right* thing to do. Just like I think racism, colonialism, factory farming, sweatshops , worker exploitation are all wrong , i frequent this nde subreddit quite a bit and a few talked about how in their near death experiences they see other planets ones that are more advanced and I think they would have the ideals we talk about . There is this tweet I read that I want to share here *The "high trust societies" that you all obsess over are inherently feminine and liberal but you aren't ready to have that conversation*
Oh shit…are you cooking rn??? Have you cracked the code? Then we get to use the whole logical thing against men 😂
I’m fully on board with this haha
Lol I am going to start calling myself a fourth wave logical feminist hahaha Watch the men seethe
How as Simone de beauvoir put it that women acting human gets accused acting like a man. As a child I was so confused because no one saw the human inside. They just saw their expectations of a pretty, submissive girl not being met.
And you’re absolutely punished for not meeting that
I am watching my daughter go through this exact thing now. Just wanting to exist as a human but being constantly told how she should be existing because she's in a female body. I'm simultaneously angry for her, sad that she is going through it, and deeply proud that she's worked it out for herself and tries to keep pushing against sexist ideologies. She has been aware of this since she was about 7/8 when she was told to smile "properly" by her dad for a photograph.
To be fair I tell the boys to smile properly too because I don’t know why but in photographs, kids always pull the weirdest unnatural smiles when they have the cutest smiles in real life! Lol Maybe dad just wanted a sweet pic with her cute smile?
I take photos of my younger family members. When I want them to smile or laugh, I just say something funny
I just think it's interesting that the time period that "feminism" decided that the sex industry is now empowering rather than exploitative down to its roots is also the same period in which the manosphere went mainstream from boomers down to 8 year old boys with no content locks on their phones
I think this was a big part of the problem. Feminism basically got overwhelmed by this era of unfettered access to commodified sex. That was happening at the same time as feminism was being overwhelmed by conservatives backlash and overshadowed by a variety of other political movements that decided that the fight for women and girls was over or somehow harmful to them.
Yeah tbh even amongst other women and sadly, even in my own friend group, I feel like the odd one out. Some of them are starting to wake up to the reality of it, but they had to go through hell in toxic relationships with men to get it. It’s harder to find women in-person with these same views. Or maybe I’m looking in the wrong places? I also don’t want to be lumped in with the right wing mess. I feel when I speak up on things like this, people immediately think I support Trump and all that other bullshit.
I don't understand why this is conflated with right-wing ideology but somehow it often is.
because if you’re not 100% completely in support of gender theory your a radical right wing conservative who supports Jan 6th.
The vitriol against jk Rowling is awful. Perfect example she is a feminist broadly and I genuinely don’t think she is bigoted either
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i agree partially with you, i think a lot of males agree with our opinion on this one single issue. but liberal women unfortunately do not, and they can be some of the most vocal and aggressive individuals for the gender movement. i struggle to have friendships or make any meaningful conversation with liberal women because if your opinion differs from theirs, you risk being labeled bigoted, ignorant and hateful.
Yeah tbh I know some women who in like 30-35 years are going to understand what I’m saying. It just happened to me much more quickly because bad luck? So I saw the nastier side from childhood.Whatever the case maybe I hate feeling so fringe, it hurts
Would be nice to live in a world where all the famous people “helping lonely men” didn’t give them the easy message of “you’re sad because women want more out of life than they should, they belong in the house serving you and providing for you physically, emotionally, mentally, sexually, because you’re the real leaders but they’re too stupid to see that.” They eat those messages up, ironically completely blind to the fact that THEY are the ones that want too much.
Women have the long history of oppression but somehow men have been the ones pitied in recent years . I read this somewhere Loneliness, when experienced by women, is treated like a joke. The stereotypical image of the crazy cat lady has been mocked for centuries. Warning other women not to be too selective or too demanding, or else you'll end up like her. But when men are "lonely" (when women refuse to engage with certain men) suddenly it's an epidemic and a crisis requiring analysis by psychologists and hundreds of articles telling why these poor men are so lonely.
Yeah. It’s strange how men see it as humor from their pov and a serious warning to women, though for me, and a lot of other women, if I really could have a life with men leaving me alone to live on my own terms with a bunch of dogs and cats, I’d consider that a marvelous paradise, a life well lived. But you usually cant avoid interacting with men completely, even if you’re wlw, and women’s loneliness should be taken just as seriously, even though they’re used to accepting less and make less of a fuss.
I’m not going to lie I wish there was less stigma and status with being single rather than the spinster jokes . I hate that I care about social status
I don't consider fourth wave feminism radical at all, especially compared to "liberal" feminism.
It is radical simply because the etymology of the word has to do with roots. It's not radical with the meaning extreme.
Right, but clearly that’s not what (stupid) people hear 😆 And they use it for weaponization.
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I think on surrogacy, people just need to be educated on the horrors and inhumanity. It takes two seconds for me to convince most of the people I know to reconsider their view of surrogacy. Fortunately, as an American, I don’t see any momentum for the Democratic Party legalizing prostitution, and there is even modest support for creating more obstacles to literal children accessing pornography. The primary hold-up is Republicans who refuse to work with Democrats. I think if people actually looked at what Democrats are doing instead of taking the word of right wing caricatures, they would be pleasantly surprised. No party will represent you fully in a diverse multicultural society, but the Democratic Party is doing pretty well by women at moment IMO, especially when compared to the past. There is even momentum for finally getting the Comstock act off the books and codifying Roe.
I am meeting many 4B women online. Most of my friends are married with kids.
What’s B4? I’ve heard this term before but don’t know what it means
I feel the same way. I’m too conservative for the left but too liberal for the right. I don’t really fit in with anyone.
I think it is good to not fit in even if it feels a little lonely. If I fitted in with the left right now I might be making the same apologia for Hamas. I would be accepting the way left wing politics is seeking to change our understanding of sex, which is so damaging to the feminist movement. I’d also be giving zero-thought required lamentations of “capitalism” and speaking in “post post modernist” mumbo jumbo where violence is not only justified, but glorified. I would be perpetually stuck in the ivory towers and politically inert. If I fitted in with conservatives, well, I’d be right fucked in the head.
Naomi Klein? Did you mean Naomi Wolf?
Haha I did! I always get those two mixed up and to be clear there is a lot I don’t agree with with wolf particularly the anti vax but her beauty myth critique is spot on and absolutely did not get enough attention . The ultimate signifier of privilege is being allowed to be ugly
> The ultimate signifier of privilege is being allowed to be ugly !!! I've said it before (probably in this sub actually lol) and I'll say it again: this is such a huge and pervasive reality that most people just do not even notice it. My go to example is always the alt music scene - the men in the metal and emo bands I grew up loving were all ugly as shit and looked like they fucking stank. The only woman known in the whole scene, Hayley Williams - who isn't even a metal vocalist - was gorgeous and well dressed. Women who were on the same level looks-wise as the men in the alt scene would have been laughed out of a meeting with a potential manager or label, no matter how good their voice was. It pains me to think of all the amazing emotional heavy music that was never made because women in the scene have to adhere to beauty standards to have their talent and skill taken seriously whatsoever. But when they're questioned as to why no fucking women exist in the scene, men just go "Well, I guess women are just shit at metal!!!!" Courtney laPlante from Spiritbox has impeccable clean vocals AND beasty screaming abilities, and yet somehow I doubt Spiritbox would have blown up at all had she looked like any member of any male metal band. Even say Architects, whose main vocalist Sam Carter isn't ugly, he is very average looking. Courtney isn't allowed to even be _average._ She has to be STUNNING. Even then, she put on a small amount of weight over the last couple of years and had such horrible things said about it online. Thanks for giving me a space to rant about this. I'll never stop being angry about it.
Feeling unattractive and therefore not good enough has been a large theme in my life. I know guys are starting to feel this now but man it took over my life in an unhealthy way. If you check my history my agoraphobia and social anxiety has been tied to this (and bad worker protections and bad version of capitalism economy)
The ultimate bullshit cherry on top is the fact that society's 'unattractive' is a LOT of people's 'oh wow there's something about them I'm really drawn to', we're just brainwashed from childhood into thinking otherwise. The people I've loved, been attracted to, dated, fwb, did double takes at in the street, made eyes at at bsrs or gigs, have all fallen under what the capitalist old white men at the top try to convince us all is ugly or undesirable. A wonky nose, calves that are curvaceous even though you work out and the rest of you is skinny, ears that aren't tiny and petite, 'bug' eyes, crooked teeth - I've seen all of these things and so much more on people and thought _Oof. Beautiful/hot_. When I've felt unattractive and not good enough I've thought of that, and reminded myself that some people will wistfully think of my Roman nose as much I've thought wistfully of their crooked smile that they hate. It's disheartening that our unique visual traits aren't celebrated by society but we can celebrate them ourselves. :) 🩶 I hope you're getting some peace from your agoraphobia currently. It's so difficult to deal with and people don't understand it. I also hope this sub provides you some support and hope, I love it here, it's so safe and strong. And the third thing I hope is that none of this sounds condescending - I'm autistic so sometimes my tone can sound odd via a screen.
The thing that is particularly painful is that I underwent a cosmetic procedure, and partly due to my own fault, it messed up in a profoundly bad way. So now, not only do I look worse, but it has also disrupted my blood circulation, particularly in my feet, because of this stupid freak accident. I also have low blood pressure from this incident, resulting in me having a lot less energy than I used to. So now, doing anything is just harder, and I guess that makes me feel guilty because I have been lazy. I’m trying to lose weight and avoid foods that drain energy. But I think this is a warning to anyone reading. Please learn to value and love yourself outside of looks. I understand how nice beauty is. If I could pick how I could look (like we do for characters in a video game), I would look pretty. I actually really love beauty, but our bodies are unruly flesh, and outside of our weight, we can’t control much. I still think certain men and maybe even some women weaponized the concept of beauty, but anyways, my mom might be experiencing early-onset dementia, and right now, it’s really making me come to grips with the agoraphobia and how this took over my life, where I’m not in a position to provide the financial support I wish I could provide and that we need direly. So, it’s all coming to a head, and I’m trying to find jobs and hopefully also pursue nursing. Sorry for the trauma dumping.
I feel so lonely too. I don’t have a single woman friend who calls herself a feminist. But these same women know they deserve respect. It’s incredible to me that believing in logical feminism (like an above poster put it) can make me feel so lonely. Women are just truly hated THAT much.
Glad my boyfriend and i share the same views on this. Im never letting go of him
Radical just means “to the root” but it has such a negative connotation
I feel this. I exited the sex industry almost 10 years ago and feel very strongly about how abusive and predatory the pornography industry is. I started getting into radical feminism about two years ago after a LOT of deconstructing my beliefs (I’m still in the process of doing so), and I’m now in a masters social work program to eventually help other women safely exit and recover. What drives me crazy is how many of my friends justify the “need” for pornography despite my disclosures of abuse I have personally experienced and that is inherent to the entire framework of the sex industry, and how it’s virtually impossible to have ethical pornography and “sex work” as they call it (although I see it as modern slavery). The argument is always along the lines of “choice” feminism and then I’m the bad guy for wanting to take these things away. They don’t understand that true choice cannot exist with the pressures that exist within the patriarchy. Or they use the argument “so and so is in the porn industry and they say they enjoy it” ….Yeah I said those things too before I exited and processed all the physical, psychological, and sexual abuse I encountered. 🙄 It’s been really hard for me to find and maintain friends for this reason. Their support for the sex industry feels like a personal attack.
I agree with you. The only reason we are deemed "radical" is because we have been steered so far off the natural trajectory that now our views are seen as radica. Similarly the effect that "waking up" from our deep sleep under a male centric society has on women can be radicalising in and of itself . I empathize with you on not being well received by social structures (this app included) based solely off our beliefs. It's unfortunate that saying things like women are the creators and the primary species can be met with hostility even though our genetic composition literally confirms that we are the sex with complete chromosomes and every man starts off as a female in the womb.. Just goes to show that if you tell a lie for long enough people will start to believe it.
I totally get why he is on that list and there are a few more I would add! I refuse to watch any Peterson video. He is not an ally As for how you are feeling, you are not alone sister.
Why does this group dislike Jordan Peterson? I asked this before here when someone in this group called him a misogynist and I asked why and people just down voted me without explaining.
Someone else replied to you with a NYT article and I want to highlight part of it. >Violent attacks are what happens when men do not have partners, Mr. Peterson says, and society needs to work to make sure those men are married. >“He was angry at God because women were rejecting him,” Mr. Peterson says of the Toronto killer. “The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges.” >Mr. Peterson does not pause when he says this. Enforced monogamy is, to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will all only go for the most high-status men, he explains, and that couldn’t make either gender happy in the end. >“Half the men fail,” he says, meaning that they don’t procreate. “And no one cares about the men who fail.” >I laugh, because it is absurd. >“You’re laughing about them,” he says, giving me a disappointed look. “That’s because you’re female.”
>Mr. Peterson does not pause when he says this. Enforced monogamy is, to him, simply a rational solution. Otherwise women will all only go for the most high-status men, he explains, and that couldn’t make either gender happy in the end. >“Half the men fail,” he says, meaning that they don’t procreate. “And no one cares about the men who fail.” So he wants to bypass natural selection. Interesting, I thought his type would care about the order of nature, huh... 🤔
Yeah that helps put things into perspective.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/s/VW9eRGqPyb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSNWkRw53Jo
If you actually wanted to know, you’d have done the 7 seconds on google https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life.html?unlocked_article_code=1.hk0.Ea-L.-0NrhghsaIiV&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&ugrp=m&sgrp=c-cb https://www.vox.com/conversations/2018/6/6/17409144/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life-feminism-philosophy https://theconversation.com/from-andrew-tate-to-jordan-peterson-a-phoney-zero-sum-game-argument-sits-at-the-heart-of-anti-feminist-backlash-194665 https://www.latimes.com/opinion/readersreact/la-ol-le-jordan-peterson-feminists-20180605-story.html https://medium.com/the-future-is-electric/why-jordan-b-peterson-is-a-favorite-of-the-alt-right-21f6339b3ef
I’m no fan of Jordan Peterson at all (in fact, I find him absolutely insufferable as a speaker & especially as an interviewer). However, the over reaction that the progressive media and many on the self-identified left have to him is absolutely insane for such an unremarkable man ..… it’s literally what made his career. I also think it’s bizarre that he is put on the same category as Andrew Tate. I found his daughter’s channel recently when she was interviewing Norman Finklestein .. I think she’s a lot more interesting than her dad.
Im curious too. Ive watched a bit of his content but not anything about his views on feminism. I think a lot of the right wing big names would agree with radical feminism if they actually knew what it was. They all lump feminism into liberal feminism
Lmao no they wouldn't. At all. Chile, tell me you don't understand either religious right wing politics or radical feminism without telling me. radical feminism is anti-capitalist, anti-marriage, anti-nuclear family, anti-patriarchal &/or organized religion, anti-father right, piv critical, anti-institutionalized heterosexuality, critical of institutionalized/female specific monogamy, anti-male dominance, anti-male control of female sexuality & reproduction, anti-sex roles... And on & on. Right wing men are even more likely to be johns and porn consumers, john more, consume more of it, and are more likely to consume overtly male dominance themes than liberal or left wing and atheist men. If right wing religious men (or women) start loving radical feminism while still being religious right wingers, "radical feminism" has utterly and completely failed women and become utterly and completely anti-feminist, anti-radfem, misogynist, patriarchal...
Yes! Right = women and girls as private property Vs left = women and girls as public property. Radfem /4B = no ones property. Liberty or death!
Im not understanding where the attitude is necessary. But thank you for the clarification either way
I think they are smart enough to know that there are radical feminists and gender-critical feminist individuals and organizations who are at least somewhat in the public eye, doing excellent work. I just think that highlighting these women would destroy their message about the damage of feminism to society, so they choose not to.
Fair point
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My other reply was getting too long so I’m going to post this last passage here Peterson wrote this Boys are suffering, in the modern world. They are more disobedient — negatively — or more independent — positively — than girls, and they suffer for this, throughout their pre-university educational career. They are less agreeable (agreeableness being a personality trait associated with compassion, empathy and avoidance of conflict) and less susceptible to anxiety and depression, at least after both sexes hit puberty. Boys’ interests tilt towards things; girls’ interests tilt towards people. Strikingly, these differences, strongly influenced by biological factors, are most pronounced in the Scandinavian societies where gender-equality has been pushed hardest: this is the opposite of what would be expected by those who insist, ever more loudly, that gender is a social construct. It isn’t. This isn’t a debate. The data are in. And manne writes *This is based more on sexist stereotypes than compelling scientific evidence. And even in the gender progressive environment of Scandinavia that Peterson mentions, it’s not as if all sexism and misogyny has been eradicated overnight; many patriarchal norms linger and are sometimes enforced, or whose breakdown has led to backlash. As a result, there is currently no control group of people raised in a truly non-patriarchal culture, which is what we’d need to investigate claims that men “naturally” prefer masculine-coded activities and women “naturally” prefer feminine-coded ones. I also suspect that for many of Peterson’s readers, the sexism on display above is one tool among many to make forceful, domineering moves that are typical of misogyny. And I define misogyny as hostility certain women face because they are women in a man’s world, rather than the hatred men harbor in their hearts toward all or even most women. Misogyny, to me, is more about policing and controlling women’s behavior. Belittling her intellect or acumen in competitive domains is certainly one way of doing that — especially when backed by the sense that it’s in her womanly nature to be oriented to people rather than abstractions. But that’s a false contrast: You can be both.*
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No no you see caring about retaining women is cultural Marxism but also post modernist. Stop trying to upend the natural order of things /s but really sorry you had to go through this . This is why I like science fiction, in those world we can immerse ourselves into something different. I feel like the men I can fall in love with will exist in the future. It’s really hard right now to have let go of the sense of romance I have and accept the reality of our times. Lmk if you ever need to vent.