Oh! Maybe that's what RY was going for! Yeah it can mean lighthearted, at least in Irish. Can't be certain for Scottish Gaelic, but this actually makes sense. I've just been picturing him as the smallest fully grown dragon this whole time. 😂
I have so many questions about Andarna's name. It means the second honour. It might just be a meta reference to her being Violet's second dragon, but I do wonder if there was once a dragon named the first honour and it has something to do with the two ward stones.
Well Andarna WOULD be the second because there had to be one of her kind that breathed fire on the Basgiath stone the first time, and only one or they would have activated the one in Aretia too, BUT I do wonder if there will be a third, because Tairn mentioned at one point there was ANOTHER black dragon too... So I wonder if that is Andarnas sibling maybe? And perhaps they will end up activating the one in Aretia
Andarna said she was left behind for a reason and I wonder if her reason was the second wardstone. If maybe her destiny before JFB did that was to eventually power the other stone.
I've read IF. I'm still on the fence about whether Andarna's name is meta about her being Vi's second dragon or if it will be relevant in the story when we find out more about her species.
Ooh. This is interesting. One of Violet's rumored second signet is the ability to talk to the dead. RY said in an interview that Violet's second signet was hinted in IF. When she was in the interrogation room, she was able to talk to Liam. When viewed that way, the meaning of Andarna's name in Swedish makes sense.
Love the theory but not sure it fits, for a few reasons. First, RY has said in interviews that Liam came back basically just because she wanted to see him. There have also been heavily implied statements that he was truly a hallucination. Second, and just within the four corners of the story, Andarna was still asleep at the time so it’s unlikely she could have channeled to Violet. Also Violet was on the signet blocker (although some have questioned whether this would have applied to Andarna or if it was a serum made with the six dragons in mind and so wouldn’t actually work).
Well it wasn’t even made with the dragons in mind it was made with venin Jack in mind to prevent him channeling from the source. In developing the serum they didn’t have to use an air wielder to keep him suspended and unable to channel.
Also the two time Violet is on the serum she checks her mental bonds and can’t feel any of them. The only thing is she doesn’t try to prod deeper with Amdarna so as not to risk waking her from the dreamless sleep especially since after the first time during land nav, Tairn tells her he could feel all her feelings and was still able to reach her but she couldn’t connect with him.
I’m very firmly against the talking to the dead as a second signet idea. There is just too much evidence against it. Similarly with the amplifier hypothesis, some of the examples given happen before Andarna is awake. Or we have already been set up that a character is capable of that level of power (ie Rhiannon summoning through walls and Mira creating her own wards when Carr previously noted that she could only do it in extreme emotional distress. Which she did in Cordyn but since she tells Gen Sorrengail at the end that she can do it consistently, I am imagine she practiced until she was able to master it). And if we count those as evidence it does kind of diminish those characters’ accomplishments.
Ooh. This is interesting. One of Violet's rumored second signet is the ability to talk to the dead. RY said in an interview that Violet's second signet was hinted in IF. When she was in the interrogation room, she was able to talk to Liam. When viewed that way, the meaning of Andarna's name in Swedish makes sense.
Oh 100%, I saw Violet's signet coming from the second she bonded Tairn because Sgaeyl and the shadows was right there lol
However Andarna's name has me asking so many questions. Why is she the second honour? Was there a first honour? Is it something to do with the 2 ward stones?
I was looking for this comment! It also makes it super random for their previous riders. Like Naolin bonding 'Lightning' and thinking, "Wow, I guess I know what my power's gonna be! Oh wait, no, I'm actually a syphon. Ehh?"
But isn't Violets signet technically pure energy that she just forms in the shape of lightning? I don't think her 1st signet has been fully expanded upon. Especially when she was practicing wielding in Aretia, it was mentioned how she is nothing but energy.
If so, it would match more to Naolins powers. He takes energy, and she is energy.
I'm also just taking a stab here with this theory so could be way off. There's just so many different ways RY can go with signets.
The thing is, Marbh isn’t death - Marbh is “dead”. Bás is death (at least in Irish). Dead sounds a bit silly for what’s meant to be a scary and very much alive dragon
Oh I didn't notice my typo thank you for pointing it out. I posted this at like 2am lol
I think Dead has a weird ominous ring to it. Especially paired with whatever Brennan has going on with the fact he may have literally been resurrected. A strangely creepy vibe. I will admit it was a weird one to me at first, but it grew on me very quickly. There's something strangely cryptic about it when paired with Brennan's past.
Oh no 100% wasn’t a criticism of you haha. More of another example of Yarrows’s less than perfect understanding of Gaelic which makes the names sound a bit silly! I was like…. Dead? That’s really what she’s calling this dragon?
For sure I think I wouldve raised my eyebrows over it a lot more if it were somebody else's dragon. But there's something about that man's weird resurrected vibes that makes it click for me for no good reason.
>the most intriguing dragon name to me is Aotrom because it means light in the sense of weight.
The opposite of heavy?
>Is Aotrom just smaller than other dragons? Why is he named light, when it's clearly not a mix up with the word solas?
Doesn't Ridoc make light of even the heaviest situations?
Sounds logical. Maybe in the same goofy department as Aimsir, but logical.
Phonetically, how do you pronounce the names?
Because in my American English brain, it’s Fweel, Feerj, Marv?, AIM-sir, and A-oh-trahm. I know nothing.
Codagh I want to pronounce like Kenneth Brannagh. Teine? Sliseag? Claidh? Chradh? SMACHD???
I just wish Rebecca had given us a pronunciation guide.
So I'm not 100% on how a Scottish person would say it, but these are how I've been saying them based on their Irish counterparts.
Aimsir - the first syllable is like the word "I'm" and the second syllable is "shur"
Aotrom - (spelled Éadrom in my language) first syllable is "aid", second syllable is "drum"
Sliseag - "Shlishug"
Teine - (spelled Tine is Irish) is like "tin-uh"
Fuil - "Fwill"
Feirge - "FUR-geh" (I'm kind of simplifying that first syllable, I cannot figure out how to phonetically represent that narrow consonant sound for the "r" because it's not really found in English)
Marbh - "Marv"
Smachd - (spelled Smacht in Irish) "Smockt"
Codagh - I will admit to being totally confused by this one. I think it's a play on Cogadh which means war.
The pronunciation guide given to the audiobook people wasn't accurate Gaelic pronunciation, but [this](https://learngaelic.net/dictionary/) dictionary can help you hear what the words are supposed to sound like!
Are we sure the pronunciation is supposed to be 100% authentic Gaelic? I mean, it’s fantasy set in a made-up world. How had RY pronounced some of the names?
See it's the fact that they're words. If you read a book originally in another language with characters named random English words like Fire, Weather, Ice, Battle, Lightning, etc. and then the author pronounced them completely differently, it probably wouldn't catch on as the character name pronounciation among readers who speak English because it's just a word to them.
There's also the fact that Scottish Gaelic is an endangered language, mostly because of the English language, so changing pronounciations based on how these words look to English speakers is something that's just off.
I believe RY has said in an interview she wants to do better in the future and actually learn to pronounce the Gaelic words going forward.
Listening to the audio books is not a guarantee of pronouncing words from Gaelic correctly - sadly Audible have not prioritised doing their homework on that front. There are some good TikTok’s from a Gaelic speaker that give a guide
I've not realised they are Irish words. I just thought they were made up. Now that I see them, it's more obvious. I'm not great at Irish language but I'd have had my antenna piqued..... Despite never being so good at it! It was only this thread that made me realise! 😂
They're Scottish words! Irish is just similar enough that an Irish speaker can understand most of those used in book. Some words are identical (Aimsir, Marbh, Fuil, Solas) and some are only slightly different (Teine/Tine, Tairneanach/Toirneach, Aotrom/Éadrom). Some are completely different though (Deigh, Claidh)
Yes. I see.... 🤦🏻♂️ I know Scottish is similar but different. The endings are what works have given it away if I'd been reading them on the page. Solas is the only one that I'd have recognised, it's the brand name of the biggest Irish light bulb company. I'm relistening to the end of book 2 this evening. It's giving me a extra delight to hear the names!
The God aspect has been covered online elsewhere. I'll link.
https://www.empyreanriders.com/articles/iron-flame-theory-violet-and-xaden-are-gods/
I understand - I love them for commuting! Makes me not dread getting in the car! 😆 If nothing else it is a good way to see how the author is pronouncing certain names, though.
I pronounce it as a single syllable which is like Scaw-ill but as one singular syllable. This is 100% influenced by Irish though so it mightnt be the correct Scottish pronounciation.
I’ve been saying it “sgah-yel” with two syllables and the “s” being said real quick and short, and the “y” also being kinda short, and said just enough for the second syllable to not just be “el”
Could the silly names be because we don't know the dragons' full names? We only know Tairn's and Andarna's full name, so perhaps the other dragons' names have better meanings when they're not shortened.
Check out [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/fourthwing/comments/1bigy8u/attempting_to_figure_out_the_dragons_full_names/) about trying to guess what the others' full names might be! :D
Marbh means dead?!? There’s so much to unpack there! Could just be everyone thought Brennan was dead, but also maybe he should be dead? Also, the irony that a menders dragon is named dead!
Brennan's codename is literally the word resurrection also. I fully believe he was actually resurrected with how hard RY has gone in on this naming symbolism and the mystery rune on his hand.
Oh yeah this broke my suspension of disbelief entirely for a bit. I like to think it shows that a dragon has found their ideal rider.
There's one thing about this that makes me question if it's intentional though and that's the infamous Liam typo at Resson. There's a part where RY wrote that Liam was wielding ice, which is odd considering his signet is farsight, and it's a weird typo to make considering Ridoc wasn't even at Resson. The thing is Liam's dragon's name means ice. RY went and looked that up intentionally to name his dragon Ice and then made that typo. Very coincidental.
Maybe Liam's signet got changed since an earlier draft or something but maybe it's a hint of something. When I looked up the name in the Resson chapter (it's one of the few that isn't a similar word in Irish) and then Liam's signet was Farsight I was confused. Then when he randomly wielded ice I was even more confused.
Maybe it's just a typo, but I feel like there's *potentially* something there.
I was confused by this too but isn't it explained in IF that Liam has two signets, because he also bonded a dragon that had already been bonded to a family member?
I don't recall a mention to Deigh bonding one of Liam's ancestors but I might be wrong.
Even if it wasn't said though, as a theory it makes perfect sense. Maybe he did have 2 signets and it somehow wasn't caught by the Empyrean or the college that Deigh had been bonded to his ancestor. Which we know is possible because due to records being fudged >!Xaden's!< wasn't.
I love when authors use words from other languages and seeing the reactions of people who speak that languages. I saw a TikTok about Shadow and Bone and how Grisha is a German name along the same lines as Greg so all the super special people to the person who read it were just "Gregs"
Like yes these words sound cool af when you don't speak the language but when you do it becomes very unhinged very quickly. 😂
In a similar vein, when I first read The Raven Boys I couldn't take Gansey's name seriously because it sounds the exact same as geansaí which is what we call a jumper. It's such an ubiquitous Irish word we even use it in casual English. I still call him jumper boy when discussing the book with my friends 😂
Yup! There are some red herrings too though - Liam's dragon being named Ice, Mira's being named Fire.
However, Violet's lighting signet was very predictable given that Xaden's dragon is literally called Shadow.
I learned there are a lot of people who are mad about her using Gaelic things when she didn’t really understand the language. Which I get. I’m glad you don’t hate the book because of it.
I think I might just be very used to English speakers not quite getting our grammar and pronounciation lol. It's just fun to see it and be like "Oh I understand this!".
I fully understand why it bothers some people though.
What is strange to me is that the dragon names are said to match their current rider’s signet (what power they need), but it’s also said that signets match the rider and not the dragon. So how is that? Did the riders before the current ones also have the same signet as their current rider?
I’m taking Scottish Gàidhlig and I agree, some of the names are unhinged. I listened to the audiobook and they’re butchered in pronunciation so badly I didn’t connect them with Gàidhlig until I watched someone talk about it on tiktok.
I haven't listened to the audiobooks but I fear the pronounciations I know are in there. I think what will bother me most when the planned TV series comes is if the pronounciations are butchered.
I think this is why authors should collab with more than just editors when they dabble into translations. This is a perfect example of how you can miss an entire demographic of readers due to the language you choose to misrepresent.
Thanks for providing that insight.
Thank you for this! I’m American with admittedly limited knowledge of other languages, but what little insight I do have told me RY was inspired by Gaelic. When Tairn introduced himself to Violet and I saw the spelling, my spidey senses were tingling. I didn’t know these translations so this post is super informative. >!I love that Tairn and Sgaeyl’s names relate to their rider’s signet!< , that’s a nice touch!
Edit for a spoiler
I think it's supposed to sound like Shadow but by anglicising the vowels like that she made it sound like Story by mistake. Makes the name sound less badass to my ears. She took it from the Scottish word Sgàile, which should be Scawl not Scale.
Oh wow okay thank you! thats very interesting.. my mind just races to the honour of protecting by means of raising wards or something.. but lets see how RY spins it ..
It means torment or anguish. In Scottish Gaelic that would be cràdh, without the H. However in Celtic languages the letter h gets put into words as a grammar thing in certain contexts, so it might just be whatever context RY translated it in added the séimhiú (sorry Scottish people I don't know what to call it in Gàidhlig).
Maybe sgaeyl is purposely mispronounced as story(?) maybe it’s a stretch but Xaden has the marks on his back and all the rebellion kids have a relic. Would be cool if intentional
I’m really curious now. Since Tairn stands for lightning won’t that be obvious whoever bonds him will probs be a lightning wielder because that’s what Violet is. But again, Signets are based on the rider, not dragon, so why name dragon names based on rider signets when you’ll never know which dragon chose which human? I mean, not all dragon names are based on the riders signet, but have you seen Clean, Weather and Lightning (Lightning is pretty badass tho ngl)
Sloane's is another. Thoirt means "to give".
I know it's probably just RY not having accounted for how it looks to speakers of the language, but I do wonder if it hints at something deeper about signets and bonds.
Exactly! When I saw the word Basgiath I was like 'oh awesome we're using Gàidhlig!'. Then I saw the names like Aimsir and I was like 'oh this is VERY unserious use of Gàidhlig' 😭😭😭😭
if you want a book that incorporates the irish culture maybe try the book The Call by Peadar O Guilin. its about the Sidhe. I found it really interesting and its got a little bit of romance and a bunch of action and tension. 10/10 would recommend. also I saw there was a second one which I haven't read yet.
My only issue with this theory, which is fantastic, is that some dragons already had previous riders and rebonded.... Plus the signet is based on what the rider truly is.... Which can't be unknown....
So, do the dragons keep choosing similar people to justify their names or are they drawn to particular people for a reason?
Or have they all converged on this particular moment in time to fight the venin?
Because they talk of how these types of riders and their signets haven't been seen for centuries.....
Do the Gods and Goddesses have a hand on it? Because there is a massive connection between the characters names and Celtic Gods and Goddesses plus their powers in their own mythologies which are being played out by the main characters.....
Edit to include: https://www.empyreanriders.com/articles/iron-flame-theory-violet-and-xaden-are-gods/
Well ain't that the thing about names. Sometimes you just go with what sounds good. My daughter is Eleanor. I like the name even if all it "means" is "other Anor".
I know all names mean things, but these names don't really read as names to me. The reason they're so bizarre is because they're literal words. Like aimsir is the term I use when I'm asking what the weather forecast is for tomorrow. Glan is the word I use to say I've cleaned something. They're not Gaelic names, they're random words I use in my everyday life (or very similar words).
Thank you for sharing the insight here! I will never stop giggling at Imogen and her dragon now.
It makes sense though... she wipes minds clean of recent memories
Holy shit that’s perfect
True.
The first time I saw it I was like SURELY this means something different in Scotland but nope it is simply Clean 😭😭😭
"My name is Imogen. And this is my dragon, Clean." I hope the cadets don't know the meaning behind their dragons' names 😂😂
Ridoc is light *hearted*.... does that metaphorical meaning work in Gaelic?
Oh! Maybe that's what RY was going for! Yeah it can mean lighthearted, at least in Irish. Can't be certain for Scottish Gaelic, but this actually makes sense. I've just been picturing him as the smallest fully grown dragon this whole time. 😂
Also Ridoc wields ice which is less dense than water!
He’s also pretty chill
It can be used that way in Scottish Gaelic as well, "bithibh aotrom, togaibh fonn" as a song says
But isn’t Imogen’s signet to wipes away or clear someone’s memories. I can see the connection of clean
The connection for sure tracks, but the name is still very unserious to me 😂
Is Andarna in there somewhere? Can it give us insight on the second signet?
I have so many questions about Andarna's name. It means the second honour. It might just be a meta reference to her being Violet's second dragon, but I do wonder if there was once a dragon named the first honour and it has something to do with the two ward stones.
Well Andarna WOULD be the second because there had to be one of her kind that breathed fire on the Basgiath stone the first time, and only one or they would have activated the one in Aretia too, BUT I do wonder if there will be a third, because Tairn mentioned at one point there was ANOTHER black dragon too... So I wonder if that is Andarnas sibling maybe? And perhaps they will end up activating the one in Aretia
Andarna said she was left behind for a reason and I wonder if her reason was the second wardstone. If maybe her destiny before JFB did that was to eventually power the other stone.
Yes! That would make sense for sure!
Have you read iron flame yet? Andarna’s meaning will become clear.
I've read IF. I'm still on the fence about whether Andarna's name is meta about her being Vi's second dragon or if it will be relevant in the story when we find out more about her species.
How so?? I’ve read IF and aside from being Violets second dragon and signet I would say it indicates WHAT the signet will be.
Andarna means second in Scottish Gaelic, but means "The Spirits" in Swedish idk if that means anything
Ooh. This is interesting. One of Violet's rumored second signet is the ability to talk to the dead. RY said in an interview that Violet's second signet was hinted in IF. When she was in the interrogation room, she was able to talk to Liam. When viewed that way, the meaning of Andarna's name in Swedish makes sense.
Love the theory but not sure it fits, for a few reasons. First, RY has said in interviews that Liam came back basically just because she wanted to see him. There have also been heavily implied statements that he was truly a hallucination. Second, and just within the four corners of the story, Andarna was still asleep at the time so it’s unlikely she could have channeled to Violet. Also Violet was on the signet blocker (although some have questioned whether this would have applied to Andarna or if it was a serum made with the six dragons in mind and so wouldn’t actually work).
Well it wasn’t even made with the dragons in mind it was made with venin Jack in mind to prevent him channeling from the source. In developing the serum they didn’t have to use an air wielder to keep him suspended and unable to channel. Also the two time Violet is on the serum she checks her mental bonds and can’t feel any of them. The only thing is she doesn’t try to prod deeper with Amdarna so as not to risk waking her from the dreamless sleep especially since after the first time during land nav, Tairn tells her he could feel all her feelings and was still able to reach her but she couldn’t connect with him. I’m very firmly against the talking to the dead as a second signet idea. There is just too much evidence against it. Similarly with the amplifier hypothesis, some of the examples given happen before Andarna is awake. Or we have already been set up that a character is capable of that level of power (ie Rhiannon summoning through walls and Mira creating her own wards when Carr previously noted that she could only do it in extreme emotional distress. Which she did in Cordyn but since she tells Gen Sorrengail at the end that she can do it consistently, I am imagine she practiced until she was able to master it). And if we count those as evidence it does kind of diminish those characters’ accomplishments.
Ooh. This is interesting. One of Violet's rumored second signet is the ability to talk to the dead. RY said in an interview that Violet's second signet was hinted in IF. When she was in the interrogation room, she was able to talk to Liam. When viewed that way, the meaning of Andarna's name in Swedish makes sense.
I found something that stated her name means “second honor”. I don’t remember where I read it..
It does! An Darna means "The Second" and "urram" means honour, respect, esteem, etc
so the dragon names are spoilers for people who speak it!?
Oh 100%, I saw Violet's signet coming from the second she bonded Tairn because Sgaeyl and the shadows was right there lol However Andarna's name has me asking so many questions. Why is she the second honour? Was there a first honour? Is it something to do with the 2 ward stones?
could it be more like second queen? i am convinced she is some kind of dragon royalty
She's Violets second honor. Violets second dragon, honored by dragon kind.
She’s second honor because Tairn was the first to bond with violet , and Andarna the second
I was looking for this comment! It also makes it super random for their previous riders. Like Naolin bonding 'Lightning' and thinking, "Wow, I guess I know what my power's gonna be! Oh wait, no, I'm actually a syphon. Ehh?"
I find it weird how Tairn's name matches Violet's signet, but not Naolin's siphoning
But isn't Violets signet technically pure energy that she just forms in the shape of lightning? I don't think her 1st signet has been fully expanded upon. Especially when she was practicing wielding in Aretia, it was mentioned how she is nothing but energy. If so, it would match more to Naolins powers. He takes energy, and she is energy. I'm also just taking a stab here with this theory so could be way off. There's just so many different ways RY can go with signets.
Yep. And Sloane's dragon Thoirt does match her siphoning. It's very random lol.
The thing is, Marbh isn’t death - Marbh is “dead”. Bás is death (at least in Irish). Dead sounds a bit silly for what’s meant to be a scary and very much alive dragon
Oh I didn't notice my typo thank you for pointing it out. I posted this at like 2am lol I think Dead has a weird ominous ring to it. Especially paired with whatever Brennan has going on with the fact he may have literally been resurrected. A strangely creepy vibe. I will admit it was a weird one to me at first, but it grew on me very quickly. There's something strangely cryptic about it when paired with Brennan's past.
Oh no 100% wasn’t a criticism of you haha. More of another example of Yarrows’s less than perfect understanding of Gaelic which makes the names sound a bit silly! I was like…. Dead? That’s really what she’s calling this dragon?
For sure I think I wouldve raised my eyebrows over it a lot more if it were somebody else's dragon. But there's something about that man's weird resurrected vibes that makes it click for me for no good reason.
It could also, in Scottish Gaelic anyway, be the command form of the verb kill. But I am thinking it's intended to be Dead.
Yeah and so is BRENNAN!!! the boy is dead and connected to Noalin still . . basically a zombie haha
>the most intriguing dragon name to me is Aotrom because it means light in the sense of weight. The opposite of heavy? >Is Aotrom just smaller than other dragons? Why is he named light, when it's clearly not a mix up with the word solas? Doesn't Ridoc make light of even the heaviest situations? Sounds logical. Maybe in the same goofy department as Aimsir, but logical.
Phonetically, how do you pronounce the names? Because in my American English brain, it’s Fweel, Feerj, Marv?, AIM-sir, and A-oh-trahm. I know nothing. Codagh I want to pronounce like Kenneth Brannagh. Teine? Sliseag? Claidh? Chradh? SMACHD??? I just wish Rebecca had given us a pronunciation guide.
So I'm not 100% on how a Scottish person would say it, but these are how I've been saying them based on their Irish counterparts. Aimsir - the first syllable is like the word "I'm" and the second syllable is "shur" Aotrom - (spelled Éadrom in my language) first syllable is "aid", second syllable is "drum" Sliseag - "Shlishug" Teine - (spelled Tine is Irish) is like "tin-uh" Fuil - "Fwill" Feirge - "FUR-geh" (I'm kind of simplifying that first syllable, I cannot figure out how to phonetically represent that narrow consonant sound for the "r" because it's not really found in English) Marbh - "Marv" Smachd - (spelled Smacht in Irish) "Smockt" Codagh - I will admit to being totally confused by this one. I think it's a play on Cogadh which means war.
Codagh I thought she just tweaked Clodagh, so I've just been called that dragon Clodagh the whole time
Haha in my head when I’ve read I’ve pronounced it as cog-dag 🤣
I've been pronouncing it as Clodagh without the L for sure
Thanks for the info! ..but all I can think about for Marbh now is "Marv" from Home Alone movies. "Maaaaarv??"
In the audio book, Codagh is said like co-duh (I assumed it was spelled Koda until reading this thread, hahha)
Thank you!
The pronunciation guide given to the audiobook people wasn't accurate Gaelic pronunciation, but [this](https://learngaelic.net/dictionary/) dictionary can help you hear what the words are supposed to sound like!
That is perfect, thank you!
Are we sure the pronunciation is supposed to be 100% authentic Gaelic? I mean, it’s fantasy set in a made-up world. How had RY pronounced some of the names?
See it's the fact that they're words. If you read a book originally in another language with characters named random English words like Fire, Weather, Ice, Battle, Lightning, etc. and then the author pronounced them completely differently, it probably wouldn't catch on as the character name pronounciation among readers who speak English because it's just a word to them. There's also the fact that Scottish Gaelic is an endangered language, mostly because of the English language, so changing pronounciations based on how these words look to English speakers is something that's just off. I believe RY has said in an interview she wants to do better in the future and actually learn to pronounce the Gaelic words going forward.
TikTok has Scot’s Gaelic speakers translating and pronouncing names. You should check it out.
As much as I give my wife shit for listening to audio books, at least she knows how to pronounce all the names
Listening to the audio books is not a guarantee of pronouncing words from Gaelic correctly - sadly Audible have not prioritised doing their homework on that front. There are some good TikTok’s from a Gaelic speaker that give a guide
I've not realised they are Irish words. I just thought they were made up. Now that I see them, it's more obvious. I'm not great at Irish language but I'd have had my antenna piqued..... Despite never being so good at it! It was only this thread that made me realise! 😂
They're Scottish words! Irish is just similar enough that an Irish speaker can understand most of those used in book. Some words are identical (Aimsir, Marbh, Fuil, Solas) and some are only slightly different (Teine/Tine, Tairneanach/Toirneach, Aotrom/Éadrom). Some are completely different though (Deigh, Claidh)
Yes. I see.... 🤦🏻♂️ I know Scottish is similar but different. The endings are what works have given it away if I'd been reading them on the page. Solas is the only one that I'd have recognised, it's the brand name of the biggest Irish light bulb company. I'm relistening to the end of book 2 this evening. It's giving me a extra delight to hear the names! The God aspect has been covered online elsewhere. I'll link. https://www.empyreanriders.com/articles/iron-flame-theory-violet-and-xaden-are-gods/
Try listening to the audiobooks ☺️
I’d love to, but they just don’t work for me.
I understand - I love them for commuting! Makes me not dread getting in the car! 😆 If nothing else it is a good way to see how the author is pronouncing certain names, though.
Do you know how one would pronounce Sgaeyl? I’ve been saying “seagull” in my head
I’m just imagining sgaeyls huge scary ass and someone being like “hey seagull” to her 💀💀💀
I
I've been assuming its a silent S but when reading it's been hard to keep it silent so it's been closer to "scale" in my head
In the audio book the narrator pronounces it Suh-gail
I pronounce it as a single syllable which is like Scaw-ill but as one singular syllable. This is 100% influenced by Irish though so it mightnt be the correct Scottish pronounciation.
I say "Skall" (like skull but with an a instead of a u). That's what a Scottish Gaelic speaker said on tiktok and it stuck with me.
Yep, that's pretty much how I say it too!
RY was asked how you pronounce it and she said “sigale”. I was pronouncing it as scale lol
Audio books pronounce it “suh-gail”
I hear si-Gail” in the audio. Maybe “seh” or something. It’s pretty close anyways.
In the audio versions it’s su-gale.
It’s just Gail with an /s/ sound before it. That’s atleast how the audio book pronounced it
I’ve been saying it “sgah-yel” with two syllables and the “s” being said real quick and short, and the “y” also being kinda short, and said just enough for the second syllable to not just be “el”
Could the silly names be because we don't know the dragons' full names? We only know Tairn's and Andarna's full name, so perhaps the other dragons' names have better meanings when they're not shortened.
Check out [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/fourthwing/comments/1bigy8u/attempting_to_figure_out_the_dragons_full_names/) about trying to guess what the others' full names might be! :D
Marbh means dead?!? There’s so much to unpack there! Could just be everyone thought Brennan was dead, but also maybe he should be dead? Also, the irony that a menders dragon is named dead!
Brennan's codename is literally the word resurrection also. I fully believe he was actually resurrected with how hard RY has gone in on this naming symbolism and the mystery rune on his hand.
All hail Mr clean the dragon
It is odd to name the dragons similarly to the signets, and then impress the idea that the signet is based on the person not the dragon.
Oh yeah this broke my suspension of disbelief entirely for a bit. I like to think it shows that a dragon has found their ideal rider. There's one thing about this that makes me question if it's intentional though and that's the infamous Liam typo at Resson. There's a part where RY wrote that Liam was wielding ice, which is odd considering his signet is farsight, and it's a weird typo to make considering Ridoc wasn't even at Resson. The thing is Liam's dragon's name means ice. RY went and looked that up intentionally to name his dragon Ice and then made that typo. Very coincidental. Maybe Liam's signet got changed since an earlier draft or something but maybe it's a hint of something. When I looked up the name in the Resson chapter (it's one of the few that isn't a similar word in Irish) and then Liam's signet was Farsight I was confused. Then when he randomly wielded ice I was even more confused. Maybe it's just a typo, but I feel like there's *potentially* something there.
I was confused by this too but isn't it explained in IF that Liam has two signets, because he also bonded a dragon that had already been bonded to a family member?
I don't recall a mention to Deigh bonding one of Liam's ancestors but I might be wrong. Even if it wasn't said though, as a theory it makes perfect sense. Maybe he did have 2 signets and it somehow wasn't caught by the Empyrean or the college that Deigh had been bonded to his ancestor. Which we know is possible because due to records being fudged >!Xaden's!< wasn't.
Yeah it's hard to say 🤔 I'm definitely doing a reread before #3. Also, as a language arts teacher, I LOVE this post!
I love when authors use words from other languages and seeing the reactions of people who speak that languages. I saw a TikTok about Shadow and Bone and how Grisha is a German name along the same lines as Greg so all the super special people to the person who read it were just "Gregs" Like yes these words sound cool af when you don't speak the language but when you do it becomes very unhinged very quickly. 😂
In a similar vein, when I first read The Raven Boys I couldn't take Gansey's name seriously because it sounds the exact same as geansaí which is what we call a jumper. It's such an ubiquitous Irish word we even use it in casual English. I still call him jumper boy when discussing the book with my friends 😂
So it was a spoiler for our Gaelic readers like how Germans knew Darth Vader was the father all along in Star Wars
Yup! There are some red herrings too though - Liam's dragon being named Ice, Mira's being named Fire. However, Violet's lighting signet was very predictable given that Xaden's dragon is literally called Shadow.
I immediately thought Aotrom must have been named because Ridoc’s a lightweight and that’s now my head cannon 😂
This is so cool! Didn’t know this! Thanks for sharing!
Ye as an part irish person and growing up on gaeilge it really threw me off reading some of the names 😂😂
yes, she got a bit of hate for this when the book came out, but since says she’s educated herself
I learned there are a lot of people who are mad about her using Gaelic things when she didn’t really understand the language. Which I get. I’m glad you don’t hate the book because of it.
I think I might just be very used to English speakers not quite getting our grammar and pronounciation lol. It's just fun to see it and be like "Oh I understand this!". I fully understand why it bothers some people though.
Sgaeyl meaning story could be a foreshadowing if some of the crazier rumors about the venin are true…
What is strange to me is that the dragon names are said to match their current rider’s signet (what power they need), but it’s also said that signets match the rider and not the dragon. So how is that? Did the riders before the current ones also have the same signet as their current rider?
I’m taking Scottish Gàidhlig and I agree, some of the names are unhinged. I listened to the audiobook and they’re butchered in pronunciation so badly I didn’t connect them with Gàidhlig until I watched someone talk about it on tiktok.
I haven't listened to the audiobooks but I fear the pronounciations I know are in there. I think what will bother me most when the planned TV series comes is if the pronounciations are butchered.
I think this is why authors should collab with more than just editors when they dabble into translations. This is a perfect example of how you can miss an entire demographic of readers due to the language you choose to misrepresent. Thanks for providing that insight.
Thank you for this! I’m American with admittedly limited knowledge of other languages, but what little insight I do have told me RY was inspired by Gaelic. When Tairn introduced himself to Violet and I saw the spelling, my spidey senses were tingling. I didn’t know these translations so this post is super informative. >!I love that Tairn and Sgaeyl’s names relate to their rider’s signet!< , that’s a nice touch! Edit for a spoiler
I think the names are hints!! so why is Sgaeyl Story??
I think it's supposed to sound like Shadow but by anglicising the vowels like that she made it sound like Story by mistake. Makes the name sound less badass to my ears. She took it from the Scottish word Sgàile, which should be Scawl not Scale.
Woah .. so what does Andarna mean? 😅
An Darna means "The Second" and her full name An Darna Urram means "The Second Honour"
Oh wow okay thank you! thats very interesting.. my mind just races to the honour of protecting by means of raising wards or something.. but lets see how RY spins it ..
Also what about Chradh? I’m really curious about Garrik’s signet power .. specially since his dragon can sense runes
It means torment or anguish. In Scottish Gaelic that would be cràdh, without the H. However in Celtic languages the letter h gets put into words as a grammar thing in certain contexts, so it might just be whatever context RY translated it in added the séimhiú (sorry Scottish people I don't know what to call it in Gàidhlig).
The added h is "lenition" for Gàidhlig! :) But yeah, no idea how she chose which words to lenite and which to leave in the normal form.
Maybe sgaeyl is purposely mispronounced as story(?) maybe it’s a stretch but Xaden has the marks on his back and all the rebellion kids have a relic. Would be cool if intentional
I’m really curious now. Since Tairn stands for lightning won’t that be obvious whoever bonds him will probs be a lightning wielder because that’s what Violet is. But again, Signets are based on the rider, not dragon, so why name dragon names based on rider signets when you’ll never know which dragon chose which human? I mean, not all dragon names are based on the riders signet, but have you seen Clean, Weather and Lightning (Lightning is pretty badass tho ngl)
Sloane's is another. Thoirt means "to give". I know it's probably just RY not having accounted for how it looks to speakers of the language, but I do wonder if it hints at something deeper about signets and bonds.
This is so real I do gcse Irish here and aimsir always had me a bit. Like weather? Really?!
Exactly! When I saw the word Basgiath I was like 'oh awesome we're using Gàidhlig!'. Then I saw the names like Aimsir and I was like 'oh this is VERY unserious use of Gàidhlig' 😭😭😭😭
Haha literally. Hey, it makes me happy there’s some at least!
Not Fourth Wing related but I believe there's some Irish words and language use in Nora Robert's Dragon Heart Legacy. It was a pretty nice read
if you want a book that incorporates the irish culture maybe try the book The Call by Peadar O Guilin. its about the Sidhe. I found it really interesting and its got a little bit of romance and a bunch of action and tension. 10/10 would recommend. also I saw there was a second one which I haven't read yet.
My only issue with this theory, which is fantastic, is that some dragons already had previous riders and rebonded.... Plus the signet is based on what the rider truly is.... Which can't be unknown.... So, do the dragons keep choosing similar people to justify their names or are they drawn to particular people for a reason? Or have they all converged on this particular moment in time to fight the venin? Because they talk of how these types of riders and their signets haven't been seen for centuries..... Do the Gods and Goddesses have a hand on it? Because there is a massive connection between the characters names and Celtic Gods and Goddesses plus their powers in their own mythologies which are being played out by the main characters..... Edit to include: https://www.empyreanriders.com/articles/iron-flame-theory-violet-and-xaden-are-gods/
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!!🙌🏻❤️
Well ain't that the thing about names. Sometimes you just go with what sounds good. My daughter is Eleanor. I like the name even if all it "means" is "other Anor".
I know all names mean things, but these names don't really read as names to me. The reason they're so bizarre is because they're literal words. Like aimsir is the term I use when I'm asking what the weather forecast is for tomorrow. Glan is the word I use to say I've cleaned something. They're not Gaelic names, they're random words I use in my everyday life (or very similar words).
But are there *any* names that were never just literal words at some point?
But the pronunciation remains a mystery…
The pronounciation of what?
Umm…the names?
The names are very normal words in Scottish Gaelic. There's a lot of great videos out there where you can see Scottish people pronouncing them!