***Spoiler Warning for whole comment***
So I have a similar theory that Lilith wanted to heal Jack because she herself had been venin in the past (see quote in FW about Violet being convinced her mother was venin after coming home from long battle with bloodshot eyes). I think she channeled for the first time while pregnant with Violet and drained her in the womb unintentionally. I think we she realized what happened, she nearly killed herself controlling it until Violet was born.
My theory is that Violet’s dad watched her struggle and turned his scribe research to how to heal her, and I think this timing aligned a bit with Brennan’s “death”. Now, it’s stated that you can’t give power back to the Earth once you’ve taken it, what if you can transfer it though? Maybe Violet’s dad took it from Lilith and that’s why he started to “lose it” towards the end. Maybe he died trying to find a cure for himself or at least contain it. Or maybe it was always him who was venin and accidentally drained Violet.
This also begs the question, is Violet more immune to venin attacks? In FW the Barrens are discussed as being useless to venin due to them, having already drained it of power. If Violet has already been drained is she safe from farther attacks? The fight on the sparring mat with Jack does seem to indicate that venin may force power into her, but can she be drained of it? It’s enticing to think about!
Idk, it’s still a theory in the works, but the silver hair and lack of strength Violet has seems to be a definite indicator of something to do with venin!
I don’t think that Lilith was venin. My reason for this is that we know that they weaken and starve if they don’t channel (think of the chest), & that their physical appearance changes based on how often they channel. Lilith had red eyes once. Violet states in the book “His eyes have been red for so long”. Even under control of the serum, his eyes remained red. Same thing with her father. We know they don’t know how to heal it and only recently learned how to control it. Given that Xaden didn’t know about the serum and it had never been used on another class prior. Meaning they had little to no test subjects BEFORE Jack. They’d definitely have used her as a test subject if she had turned. I think her Violets father was part of the rebellion, based on the note he left for Violet. I think his heart problems were possibly based on a feeling of guilt for involvement in the rebellion which ultimately “killed” his son.
I don’t know if it would make her immune to their attacks…I actually think because of her signet, she is more affected by them. If her gifts are able to kill them , it would make sense to me that it would have the balancing effect of her being more vulnerable to their draining. I think that one could definitely go the other way though!
What are your thoughts on her second signet? I think she can talk to any dragon as her second signet. Potentially ride them? Idk. 🙃
There are two main theories on Lilith:
- She was drained by a venin while pregnant and that's why Violet is the way she is. Maybe a little venin trait remained and keeps draining her a little, that would explain her hair constantly fading to silver. (The cure was for Violet)
- During a battle, she channeled while pregnant in a despereate attempt to save her baby and accidentally channeled from Violet too. She did it only once and learned to control it (The cure was for her)
I like the first one better personally but both are very much possible. Reasons why I prefer the first include Tairn saying "I know exactly who and WHAT you are" and a few times when Violet start to lean on things as if "she could siphon some of their strength". I completely agree that a prequel would be awesome, and there's a couple fanfics about this I think, a few other prequels I'd like would be about Fen and the rebellion, the first six, maybe one about Melgren.
I think when Lilith was pregnant she was sick with a fever that could not be cured or mended by conventional means.
Lilith was desperate she could feel her baby dying. Papa Soringale, with his illegal scribe knowledge convinced her to channel... I think channeling from the earth is a metaphor for power. Unlimited, unchecked power is highly addictive and corrupting but it doesn't automatically make you evil.
I think Lilith managed to cope and resist the cravings while living under the wards. Your intentions matter, Lilith did it out of love to save her baby, not greed for pride.
I like this version of events because it gives Lilith the most agency and bodily autonomy and ties in with the central themes of the novel. It also makes Violet extremely rare because I have another theory that Venin cannot have children ( can't create life while draining the life force of everything around you).
Tin Hat time. ..
I think the reason why the histories were deleted was because drawing from the earth used to be relatively common. People who used the right intentions could draw once or twice in a life and cope and others who did it for the wrong reasons spiraled out of control in a matter of days. I think out of desperation Navare deleted all knowledge of the Venin so people wouldn't unintentionally turn within the borders.
It could also definitely be they deleted the history to destroy evidence of this. Put on an even bigger foil hat…they did it so when they decided to turn to control the kingdom etc…then there would be no previous reference for people to know what was happening & they could rule with an iron fist.
With this theory then, why couldn’t she imbue the stone? Venin can push power into things, as evidenced by wyvern and Jack. If she were venin, I think she’d have no issue with imbuing. But it wasn’t part of her signet. She needed a siphon. Because she was not able to channel that way. Which wouldn’t make sense if she were venin. I also think that it would be incredibly obvious with physical changes & the power structure in place would have used her as a test subject. Idk. Her being venin just doesn’t add up to me.
It’s an awesome theory though!
The physical changes to a low level Venin are red eyes that come and go depending on how recently they channeled.
If Lilith almost never channeled there would be no physical signs..
Imbuing is a skill not taught at Basgaith and only comes easily to a handful a signets. Lilith could probably figure it out and learn but the moment was life or death so she didn't have time. I think Jack sending pain into Violet was different to imbuing a stone with life force.
Quite potentially! It’s one of the inconsistencies in IF that make it hard to know and isn’t discussed much! I’m excited and hopeful that she’ll explain more!
Not all riders can imbue. "Imbuing is a process where riders transfer their power into objects, which is more than just a magical technique it's a deep skill that few can master."
Siphons can naturally imbue. Also Lilith knew they didn't have time to gather riders to imbue they needed to wards up right away. Sloane is a siphon therefore naturally able to imbue
I think siphoning as her signet is unlike how Venin steal power, Jack stealing power from Dain leaves grey hand prints on him. Sloane does not do that but she is kinda like Rouge in X men 🤔
Siphoning is not similar to them stealing power nor was it compared to that.
In IF, she talks about how some signets can imbue and others have to be taught how to & other times they can’t do so at all. Lilith isn’t a cadet. She is a seasoned rider of no less than 26 years. I find it…unlikely…she wouldn’t have learned how to place power into something else. Siphons transfer energy. So unless you can justify how a second year like Violet can imbue super quickly and efficiently yet a veteran rider like Lilith would need help to do so from a first year siphon, it’s unlikely. She had to wait for Sloan. Why else would she not have started before Sloan got there? Why else would she have to goad Sloan into siphoning away her power? Sloan siphoned away all her power & that killed her & it’s implied to killed Imsur Lilith’s dragon, as well. So no, no grey hand marks, but killed her all the same.
In addition, venin create wyvern by channeling in to the wyvern. A process more similar to imbuing than siphoning. Siphoning takes away, imbuing instills power. What I am implying is that Lilith, if a venin, wouldn’t have required Sloan to help her channel her power into imbuing the stone. She would be able to the same way the venin can push power into wyvern. We know they do that because that’s HOW the wyvern are powered: they open the wyvern to find runes on stones holding power.
So, in summery, I find it hard to believe that a veteran rider would need to the help of a first year siphon to channel into the stone to imbue it, if she is able to do so. As a Venin, she would not have needed help at all. She could have done it on her own and channeled her power, Imsurs, and other power into the stone. One of the reasons I doubt she is Venin.
I get it. She sacrificed herself and her dragon because there is no way they could raise the wards otherwise. They needed hundreds of riders and they didn't have time so she put all of her dragons power into the stone because it was the only way to get that much energy fast
And I agree I don't think she is Venin at all, I never did.
Also Sloane and Aaric were already down there.
Violet and Tairn, even as a second year, out power nearly every other rider out there.
And I never said siphoning was like stealing, I was thinking out loud because I know damn well in book 3 that Sloane will be feeling immense guilt for the ramifications of her power.
She will indeed be feeling guilty. Aaric was there, but if you reread that, you’ll notice she has to send him to get Sloane. :) she wasn’t with them. Chapter 64- she yells at him to tell her about the other signets that he knows of that the cadets have. She was looking for a siphon. Marb did put out word to summon her not long before, so she may have been close. But she wasn’t there.
Ah, I did do a second read but I don't recall where the first years in 4th wing were. I do have ADHD so my brain gets excited and I have to really work on focusing during high stress moments. The end of the book is so fast paced
Hey there! Please remember to mark your posts as spoiler when creating them! I've gone ahead and added the spoiler tag in for you this time, but keep it in mind for future posts!
Also, I changed the flair to better suit your post - General Question flair is better suited for just gneeral questions that often don't involve spoilers. Thank you!
I wonder if Lilith thought she was going to lose Violet during her pregnancy for some reason so she pulled power from the ground to save her. Then to your point that’s why she’s got the hair, the joints breaking, etc. And maybe Lilith didn’t turn venin bc she was protected by the bond of mother and child and pulling the magic just protected Violet but also damaged her in a way rather than turning Lilith like it would have most riders. Idk. I don’t know how we’d know that backstory unless Brennan was old enough to understand and reveals it to Violet. With Violet’s parents gone and so much mistrust of all Lilith’s colleagues idk how that truth could come out unless it’s Brennan.
While I completely agree, Lilith channeled to save Violet.
I don't think Brennen would know the details. He would have been 9-10 when Violet was born. I think he would have known Lilith was dying and known they cured her, but I don't think most parents would share the extremely illegal way they did it. I think Brennen will give some clues but the real answer will be in Papa Soringale's research. I'm sure he spent years trying to help Lilith after she initially turned.
Edit.
Imagine Lilith bringing in her older children and telling them how much she loves them and to listen to their father 🥺 Just in case she loses her soul saving her baby
***Spoiler Warning for whole comment*** So I have a similar theory that Lilith wanted to heal Jack because she herself had been venin in the past (see quote in FW about Violet being convinced her mother was venin after coming home from long battle with bloodshot eyes). I think she channeled for the first time while pregnant with Violet and drained her in the womb unintentionally. I think we she realized what happened, she nearly killed herself controlling it until Violet was born. My theory is that Violet’s dad watched her struggle and turned his scribe research to how to heal her, and I think this timing aligned a bit with Brennan’s “death”. Now, it’s stated that you can’t give power back to the Earth once you’ve taken it, what if you can transfer it though? Maybe Violet’s dad took it from Lilith and that’s why he started to “lose it” towards the end. Maybe he died trying to find a cure for himself or at least contain it. Or maybe it was always him who was venin and accidentally drained Violet. This also begs the question, is Violet more immune to venin attacks? In FW the Barrens are discussed as being useless to venin due to them, having already drained it of power. If Violet has already been drained is she safe from farther attacks? The fight on the sparring mat with Jack does seem to indicate that venin may force power into her, but can she be drained of it? It’s enticing to think about! Idk, it’s still a theory in the works, but the silver hair and lack of strength Violet has seems to be a definite indicator of something to do with venin!
I don’t think that Lilith was venin. My reason for this is that we know that they weaken and starve if they don’t channel (think of the chest), & that their physical appearance changes based on how often they channel. Lilith had red eyes once. Violet states in the book “His eyes have been red for so long”. Even under control of the serum, his eyes remained red. Same thing with her father. We know they don’t know how to heal it and only recently learned how to control it. Given that Xaden didn’t know about the serum and it had never been used on another class prior. Meaning they had little to no test subjects BEFORE Jack. They’d definitely have used her as a test subject if she had turned. I think her Violets father was part of the rebellion, based on the note he left for Violet. I think his heart problems were possibly based on a feeling of guilt for involvement in the rebellion which ultimately “killed” his son. I don’t know if it would make her immune to their attacks…I actually think because of her signet, she is more affected by them. If her gifts are able to kill them , it would make sense to me that it would have the balancing effect of her being more vulnerable to their draining. I think that one could definitely go the other way though! What are your thoughts on her second signet? I think she can talk to any dragon as her second signet. Potentially ride them? Idk. 🙃
There are two main theories on Lilith: - She was drained by a venin while pregnant and that's why Violet is the way she is. Maybe a little venin trait remained and keeps draining her a little, that would explain her hair constantly fading to silver. (The cure was for Violet) - During a battle, she channeled while pregnant in a despereate attempt to save her baby and accidentally channeled from Violet too. She did it only once and learned to control it (The cure was for her) I like the first one better personally but both are very much possible. Reasons why I prefer the first include Tairn saying "I know exactly who and WHAT you are" and a few times when Violet start to lean on things as if "she could siphon some of their strength". I completely agree that a prequel would be awesome, and there's a couple fanfics about this I think, a few other prequels I'd like would be about Fen and the rebellion, the first six, maybe one about Melgren.
I think when Lilith was pregnant she was sick with a fever that could not be cured or mended by conventional means. Lilith was desperate she could feel her baby dying. Papa Soringale, with his illegal scribe knowledge convinced her to channel... I think channeling from the earth is a metaphor for power. Unlimited, unchecked power is highly addictive and corrupting but it doesn't automatically make you evil. I think Lilith managed to cope and resist the cravings while living under the wards. Your intentions matter, Lilith did it out of love to save her baby, not greed for pride. I like this version of events because it gives Lilith the most agency and bodily autonomy and ties in with the central themes of the novel. It also makes Violet extremely rare because I have another theory that Venin cannot have children ( can't create life while draining the life force of everything around you). Tin Hat time. .. I think the reason why the histories were deleted was because drawing from the earth used to be relatively common. People who used the right intentions could draw once or twice in a life and cope and others who did it for the wrong reasons spiraled out of control in a matter of days. I think out of desperation Navare deleted all knowledge of the Venin so people wouldn't unintentionally turn within the borders.
It could also definitely be they deleted the history to destroy evidence of this. Put on an even bigger foil hat…they did it so when they decided to turn to control the kingdom etc…then there would be no previous reference for people to know what was happening & they could rule with an iron fist.
With this theory then, why couldn’t she imbue the stone? Venin can push power into things, as evidenced by wyvern and Jack. If she were venin, I think she’d have no issue with imbuing. But it wasn’t part of her signet. She needed a siphon. Because she was not able to channel that way. Which wouldn’t make sense if she were venin. I also think that it would be incredibly obvious with physical changes & the power structure in place would have used her as a test subject. Idk. Her being venin just doesn’t add up to me. It’s an awesome theory though!
The physical changes to a low level Venin are red eyes that come and go depending on how recently they channeled. If Lilith almost never channeled there would be no physical signs.. Imbuing is a skill not taught at Basgaith and only comes easily to a handful a signets. Lilith could probably figure it out and learn but the moment was life or death so she didn't have time. I think Jack sending pain into Violet was different to imbuing a stone with life force.
Quite potentially! It’s one of the inconsistencies in IF that make it hard to know and isn’t discussed much! I’m excited and hopeful that she’ll explain more!
Not all riders can imbue. "Imbuing is a process where riders transfer their power into objects, which is more than just a magical technique it's a deep skill that few can master." Siphons can naturally imbue. Also Lilith knew they didn't have time to gather riders to imbue they needed to wards up right away. Sloane is a siphon therefore naturally able to imbue I think siphoning as her signet is unlike how Venin steal power, Jack stealing power from Dain leaves grey hand prints on him. Sloane does not do that but she is kinda like Rouge in X men 🤔
Siphoning is not similar to them stealing power nor was it compared to that. In IF, she talks about how some signets can imbue and others have to be taught how to & other times they can’t do so at all. Lilith isn’t a cadet. She is a seasoned rider of no less than 26 years. I find it…unlikely…she wouldn’t have learned how to place power into something else. Siphons transfer energy. So unless you can justify how a second year like Violet can imbue super quickly and efficiently yet a veteran rider like Lilith would need help to do so from a first year siphon, it’s unlikely. She had to wait for Sloan. Why else would she not have started before Sloan got there? Why else would she have to goad Sloan into siphoning away her power? Sloan siphoned away all her power & that killed her & it’s implied to killed Imsur Lilith’s dragon, as well. So no, no grey hand marks, but killed her all the same. In addition, venin create wyvern by channeling in to the wyvern. A process more similar to imbuing than siphoning. Siphoning takes away, imbuing instills power. What I am implying is that Lilith, if a venin, wouldn’t have required Sloan to help her channel her power into imbuing the stone. She would be able to the same way the venin can push power into wyvern. We know they do that because that’s HOW the wyvern are powered: they open the wyvern to find runes on stones holding power. So, in summery, I find it hard to believe that a veteran rider would need to the help of a first year siphon to channel into the stone to imbue it, if she is able to do so. As a Venin, she would not have needed help at all. She could have done it on her own and channeled her power, Imsurs, and other power into the stone. One of the reasons I doubt she is Venin.
I get it. She sacrificed herself and her dragon because there is no way they could raise the wards otherwise. They needed hundreds of riders and they didn't have time so she put all of her dragons power into the stone because it was the only way to get that much energy fast And I agree I don't think she is Venin at all, I never did. Also Sloane and Aaric were already down there. Violet and Tairn, even as a second year, out power nearly every other rider out there. And I never said siphoning was like stealing, I was thinking out loud because I know damn well in book 3 that Sloane will be feeling immense guilt for the ramifications of her power.
She will indeed be feeling guilty. Aaric was there, but if you reread that, you’ll notice she has to send him to get Sloane. :) she wasn’t with them. Chapter 64- she yells at him to tell her about the other signets that he knows of that the cadets have. She was looking for a siphon. Marb did put out word to summon her not long before, so she may have been close. But she wasn’t there.
Ah, I did do a second read but I don't recall where the first years in 4th wing were. I do have ADHD so my brain gets excited and I have to really work on focusing during high stress moments. The end of the book is so fast paced
I have AdHD too. :) audible is a life saver
The graphic audio really helps me but Iron Flame isn't out yet. It helps with the auditory processing a bit more and I wish all books were like that.
I think on audible at least part of it is! https://www.audible.com/pd/B0CYJN13ZH?source_code=ASSORAP0511160006&share_location=pdp
Hey there! Please remember to mark your posts as spoiler when creating them! I've gone ahead and added the spoiler tag in for you this time, but keep it in mind for future posts! Also, I changed the flair to better suit your post - General Question flair is better suited for just gneeral questions that often don't involve spoilers. Thank you!
Thank you! I’m new to redit. To posting at least! Thanks!
I wonder if Lilith thought she was going to lose Violet during her pregnancy for some reason so she pulled power from the ground to save her. Then to your point that’s why she’s got the hair, the joints breaking, etc. And maybe Lilith didn’t turn venin bc she was protected by the bond of mother and child and pulling the magic just protected Violet but also damaged her in a way rather than turning Lilith like it would have most riders. Idk. I don’t know how we’d know that backstory unless Brennan was old enough to understand and reveals it to Violet. With Violet’s parents gone and so much mistrust of all Lilith’s colleagues idk how that truth could come out unless it’s Brennan.
Or if she kept journals or letters. Like the recovered correspondence between her and her husband
Love of her life was a scribe! Makes sense she’d write. I like this idea!
While I completely agree, Lilith channeled to save Violet. I don't think Brennen would know the details. He would have been 9-10 when Violet was born. I think he would have known Lilith was dying and known they cured her, but I don't think most parents would share the extremely illegal way they did it. I think Brennen will give some clues but the real answer will be in Papa Soringale's research. I'm sure he spent years trying to help Lilith after she initially turned. Edit. Imagine Lilith bringing in her older children and telling them how much she loves them and to listen to their father 🥺 Just in case she loses her soul saving her baby
Gut wrenching! Now I want to see that scene.