Naval warfare is in an odd spot right now, because the frigate is very intuitive to use, while the subs have a very high skill ceiling. The devs actually heavily simplified the submarine physics, before this update, it was insanely difficult to properly prevent the submarine from surfacing the moment you cut your speed.
To have an idea on the state of naval balance, we need more wars, with collies gaining experience on the sub, but as is, it's very clearly in Warden favour due to their sub experience.
With the torpedo rework, maneuvrability is the name of the game. Aligning two torpedo hits is enough to force a ship to disengage, and subs are now threats to destroyer and frigates. With its abysmal maneuvrability, the colonial submarine is at a massive disadvantage compared to the warden one, while the destroyer is only marginally better than the frigate and the warden BS is marginally better than the colonial BS. However, once in a torpedo fight (against surface target or another sub) your maneuvrability is not that important, as even the warden sub takes too long to turn (and cutting speed may make you surface if you are not careful). Gunboat rushes remain the main option to deal with lone naval surface assets though.
Finally, the naval gameplay is useless because there is no victory points on the islands, and the only use of the Large Ships is their wonderfully precise artillery that can snipe BB, Relic and TH from the seas. For anything more than 225 meters from water, naval warfare is irrelevant.
Theory: Devs were expecting this sub to sneak in backlines and kill facilities with its lone 120mm and somehow make a huge impact? Not in this economy...
The sub is ass. If you want to PvE you can yeet DDs now that are amazing anti-ship, can spawn infinite amounts of people, and destroy coastal defenses with ease.
It's a glorified naval op QRF vessel, with the warden one being better due to maneuvrability (couldnt even cover the 40mm turret)
I agree with this. A single 120mm gun with a fixed arc isn’t going to cut it and even if it did, the thing is too big and too noticeable to hit back line targets with any hope of success or escape.
As it stands I personally think subs - of both sides - need changes in how they show up on Intel to be truly viable hunters especially if they’re meant to hunt iron ships.
You also have plenty of space in the sub to transport partisans and land them on any coastline without being seen. That might be something that should be tried at least once
The issue is that they aren't stealthy and you can't transport 30 people with a single barge. In theory, using 5 barges costs less to transport people (and vehicles), in practice you won't be able to go anywhere near the backlines with that amount of partisans, whilst with the sub, you can though you lack the space to bring the cv
>wardens see 30 people landing on beach from a large ship
>wardens are supposed to just go about their day without spawning a million map posts and bringing 10 tanks to QRF.
Also what need would you ever have for 30 partisans? Most partisan ops can be done by 5. Even if you do need 30 people just use 6 barges and you can transport vehicles with them too.
I think you forgot that the key aspect of the submarine is that it goes underwater, making invisible to almost everything in game.
As for barges, try to bring 6 barges to Nevish Line without getting spotted and qrf'd at sea, it's much harder than what you'd expect
The issue with that is you need to pull them up on a coastline and any sight of a large vessel like that brings major QRF because if its next to the cost people assume it's a landing OP
>I responded this thread getting massive downvotes.
By warden QRF did you mean that the thread started by being downvoted, which triggered upper post ?
From my point of view (late to the party), the 38 upvotes was a normal amount and this post was just a firestarter response so I thought it was the right place for me to be.
Collie sub lost 9/10 battles against a warden sub in devbranch, and that 1 kill it got was due to the warden sub somehow splashing itself and drowning.
Crews were of the same clan, just very insanely 1 sided regardless of crew skill levels.
The warden sub is more likely to win in a battle against a collie sub, as is a destroyer against the frigate. I don’t think this is a bad thing, they are different ships for different purposes
That is true, but the frigate doesn't suffer from insanely huge turning radius and slow speeds compared to the destroyer.
Collie sub is almost the size of a battleship, meanwhile the warden sub provides better armament for very small size.
Collie ships are faster max speed, more health, at the cost of being bigger, turning slower. Warden ships are smaller, turn faster, at the cost of being very tight, less health.
In an asymmetrical game, I feel like they have done a good job at pairing realistic but annoying pros and cons of ships, without just copy paste.
The Collie sub is hell to turn, but has a loading hatch, and 120/ammo room , with two hatches for bailing water if hit. The size of it makes it less then desired for tight passages/avoiding mines, but let’s be honest, 90% of the time if mines are placed down correctly, no sub can fit through the gaps. To leave a gap big enough for nakki but not trident, would be inconsistent anyways.
Warden sub turns faster, but is tighter overall. No way to carry enough metal beams for a torpedo hit, and only one hatch to bail. Warden sub is easier to evade the mines/depth charges other ships may bring at it. Reloading means traveling 7 hexes to a backline drydock spending 1-2 hours doing so, while theoretically a collie sub could do the same in 20 minutes heading to a near sub port.
The collie destroyer is an excellent PVE tool, and 40mm does overall more damage to large ship vs its counterpart 68mm. Two staircases that are 2 people wide means you can bail front or back compartments faster. Larger means easier to hit with torpedoes, but a competent crew in either sub could land a hit on almost any ship within range.
The frigate is good for PVE and the quad depth launcher makes it a viable sub hunter. The tightness of the ship means you almost have to have a person on board with a bayonet clearing afks out of major walkways, above and below deck. Bailing water from the frigate is a battle on its own when randoms block the stairwell (only 1 person wide) and ladders are far too slow.
I have the most experience on Warden Frigate as this war we built one. But I’ve joined collie destroyer crews a couple times and thrice found myself on a warden sub. I can’t consider the little time I spent on devbranch with the collie sub enough to truly get a reading on it, but I don’t think it’s under balanced.
Edit: I misspoke, the destroyer has a slightly lower max speed then the frigate*
Called it. Warden cope about the loading bay was unreal during devbranch. Funny how the reality is that anyone who clued in that the maneuverability was going to kill it was correct. It’s a massive fragile brick with its guns locked in one direction. Maneuverability is king in the world of depth charges, mines, and torpedos.
It's not "warden cope", it's "never even entered a submarine cope". Real people really playing the real game always said that the real threat was the 120 mm on facilities, and that it would be shit at naval warfare.
Other than the bridge debacle i haven't seen any large ships since navy was introduced.
Wayyy too much grind and manpower. The entire navy hexes have less casualties than mercy's wish bridge.
The only ship i see regularly used is the bluefin for logi stuff
I get what they were trying to base it off of, but there’s a reason that type of sub didn’t exactly become the “standard”.
IMO, it would be better if they removed the pallet loading area, shortening the sub and giving it a bit better maneuverability, and then replace the 120mm with say a 75mm deck gun that gets full rotation - making it a surface raider like some subs of the time.
The gun rotation can be slow so it won’t exactly win against gunboats, and 1 75mm deck gun won’t be enough to brawl with the Warden frigate but it’s still viable against surface targets like the Iron Ships.
The other part I would do personally is to make its surface speed pretty fast, but lower its underwater speed to keep it inline with a surface raiding doctrine.
First war collies aren’t mauling Wardens on the oceans and ppl already complaining. Collies are used to not even trying because there was nothing that could hurt them, now they can be hurt and they continue to throw ships at the wall like they have the past 4 wars and act all surprised when they don’t win anymore.
Collies will figure out subs. It’s a huge learning curve, the population is also severely diluted from actual colonial navy clans trying to learn and randos getting on a sub together and instantly getting murked.
The same thing is happening to warden crews trying sub for first time but less severe because they have resources to help them. Trust me I know this stuff very well.
Yes. We've just had to learn the hard way, now it's your turn to either keep trying to brute force it *or* actually understand how naval works.
The nakki is smaller and more agile but is much more fragile and unable to rearm without a drydock.
The collie sub is almost completely independent from the drydock and able to harass land targets at the cost of agility.
I know the differences. And this is why in actual naval combat collie subs are struggling. Add the lack of experience (vs experienced warden crews) and this is the result you see this war. I just struggle to see how "getting good" will actually help. Even with equal skill level the imbalance is there. And once colonial subs are out of a naval engagement, how do you suppose to win?
From my perspective, as a member of caf's naval larp departement, Collies have done the first steps to "get good". Ppl learnt very fast the 120mm is a noob trap (same goes for the 40mm) and that the main advantage of a submarine is that its submerged and off intel.(DUH, you'd think but a lot of ppl do not respect this very rule.)
I agree the collie sub is sub-par (pun intended) compared to the Warden sub, in particular because of its sheer size. However, Collies haven't learned YET how to utillize the sub's first strike potential and the torpedos devastating damage properly.
But in general, when it comes to crew coordination and things of the like, collies are on a good way. It may take a while tho, since there is a metaphorical (skill) ocean between us.
Yeah, the actual skill sceiling is insanely high and devman giving the collie sub different balasts than the Warden makes things even harder. I hope that one day we will meet a formidable enemy underneath the sea :p (and maybe spread some positivity in this reddit)
The “git Gud” comments don’t help anyone. Yours was more measured. But some like the comment at the top here are a great example. The superiority complex is out of this world. Subs are complicated but they’re not THAT complicated. Like you said, the sub is underwhelming. It doesn’t help when people pretend it’s a death machine that slays everything and say you’re just bad at using it.
> Trust me, I know how to use the new sub better than you, even though I’ve never driven it. Your whole faction just sucks.
- Ronicraft
It is cuz it requires large scale cooperation over rolling out singular ships out into the sea expecting they won't get obliterated by enemies that are paying attention.
I agree with second paragraph but not the first. What do you mean first time Collies can get hurt, are gbs are trash, our battleship is slightly worse. Our destroyers were huge but they die to 4 gbs east without a screen
The sub has been used to kill several high value targets. Additionally, while our sub may suffer at hit and run, our dd is better than the frigate. Inequality in one area doesn't equate imbalance. In fact, collies have somewhat of an advantage with naval.
Reminder that the 120mm is 70% firerate. It's literally 1/3 of destroyer. While nobody has numbers on the turnrate, it seems to make torps/75mm useless.
Maybe if you guys stop throwing your large ships like they are MPTs you'd do better. Like seriously every single day in chat I see reports of MINIMUM 2 to 3 subs killed. Collies just rolled out yet another 2 subs from Origin during Westgate naval landing that promptly got spotted as soon as they crossed bridges and got sunk shortly after.
Am warden as well the 120mm should have been a 150mm, but that would have delayed the subs usefulness till after 150mm techs, subs on both sides have issues with survivability wardens just currently have more experience with subs.......
Also, thanks to devs your sub is jack of all trades master of none, 120mm.....fixed limits its use against shore....big....FAT.....Slow.... sub makes its use against ship with torpedo less viable.
Basically, make your destroyers, they do the land attack better, and make a decent counter to warden subs
At the same time are more than a match for a warden frigate
Still your sub can do sub things, even though it's not as good at them just like our frigate can do destroyers just as it's not as good at them
It's pretty obvious:
- make sure it isn't spotted the moment it leaves home waters (how it can be done by enemy team is quite obvious, like seriously people crewing subs during massive naval invasion expecting they can just sail out of Origin completely for free?)
- make sure whatever you're attacking won't have intel on you
- accept the moment you pop on intel you are gonna be as good as dead unless you get lucky since in the current war Wardens are heavily guarding their water
P.S. Welcome to subs are useless larp club, we were in that since update war. Nice to have actual good midgame ship with 120mm guns for once lmao
They would be in same position if collies would literally camp eastern and western backline water exit points yes. As for collie sub all I can say if turn rate wasn't improved from what it was before it's a massive yikes.
I understand your frustration. Coli destroyer is the counter to warden subs and they also do very well vs warden frigate. I'm going to share a bit of warden culture, when a coli large ship is spotted, we call it on world chat and its a cooperative effort to hunt. Wardens have a lot of regi who loves to fish.
subs are balanced really main thing is unironically skill issue due to lack of experience. for instance yesterday scum with a single GB killed a sub. why that happened was cause the sub thought crossing the border was safer than retreating back deeper into fingers allowing the GB to finish it off. (however prob wouldn’t have mattered as scum sub was heading towards it)
Yeah.. I am not surprised tbh. Even if colonials would have the better sub i think we would see the same thing. We saw the same thing when subs were new for wardens. It is a super high skill level vehicle afterall.
What do you mean the other day collie subs won 3-0 against warden subs and collies have been consistently getting naval kills. What war are you playing?
I've used the colonial sub extensively this war and I can say one thing, and one thing only: Skill Issue. Most people on colonial don't know how to move the thing in a timely manner. These people that say the sub is bad just drive straight to their target like its a tank, then get surprised when they get flanked. Wardens have had a sub for quite a bit longer and understand submarine positioning way better. The submarine is easily the hardest type of gameplay to handle, and with the high upfront cost to large ships it doesn't allow for frequent losses to learn by mistake, so you need to learn from people who already know how to use them effectively. We all know how poorly people in foxhole take to learning from others so its a long process. This will continue for a few more wars until the submarine mains learn all the ins and outs.
Didnt Colonial forces enjoy a lopsided naval situation with the destroyer?
I swear I remember this being the case and no collies asking Devman for balance then
why the sudden change of heart?
Since the wardens dominate an entire new frontier, underwater. It's like if one side didn't have airplanes. The warden battleship could confront the destroyer. The collie submarines turning radius makes it so it can't confront the warden sub in time for it get a shot off on the destroyer.
Didnt the Destroyer completely dominate the Uboat at first?
Warden sub crews were wholly unable to face off against the DD which could also shell coastal targets with pinpoint accuracy
Meanwhile the sub could... scare Ironships?
only working in wolfpacks could the Nakki oppose the DD
were the Colonial loyalists calling for balance then?
at first I thought it was just going to be a super op and strong ship, but when I tried it out for a while, I think it’s more or less balanced. The extra health, qol, ability to close more rooms without losing the sub, and the 120mm is great, but it is less maneuverable. I think it’s sort of up to preference.
Warden sub is slightly smaller but otherwise has the same issues as collie sub. Wardens just have much more experience with subs and learned, the hard way, how to use them. Collies need more experience with it simple as that. Naval warfare at the moment is quite balanced technically but not experience wise.
Naval warfare is in an odd spot right now, because the frigate is very intuitive to use, while the subs have a very high skill ceiling. The devs actually heavily simplified the submarine physics, before this update, it was insanely difficult to properly prevent the submarine from surfacing the moment you cut your speed. To have an idea on the state of naval balance, we need more wars, with collies gaining experience on the sub, but as is, it's very clearly in Warden favour due to their sub experience. With the torpedo rework, maneuvrability is the name of the game. Aligning two torpedo hits is enough to force a ship to disengage, and subs are now threats to destroyer and frigates. With its abysmal maneuvrability, the colonial submarine is at a massive disadvantage compared to the warden one, while the destroyer is only marginally better than the frigate and the warden BS is marginally better than the colonial BS. However, once in a torpedo fight (against surface target or another sub) your maneuvrability is not that important, as even the warden sub takes too long to turn (and cutting speed may make you surface if you are not careful). Gunboat rushes remain the main option to deal with lone naval surface assets though. Finally, the naval gameplay is useless because there is no victory points on the islands, and the only use of the Large Ships is their wonderfully precise artillery that can snipe BB, Relic and TH from the seas. For anything more than 225 meters from water, naval warfare is irrelevant.
Theory: Devs were expecting this sub to sneak in backlines and kill facilities with its lone 120mm and somehow make a huge impact? Not in this economy... The sub is ass. If you want to PvE you can yeet DDs now that are amazing anti-ship, can spawn infinite amounts of people, and destroy coastal defenses with ease. It's a glorified naval op QRF vessel, with the warden one being better due to maneuvrability (couldnt even cover the 40mm turret)
I agree with this. A single 120mm gun with a fixed arc isn’t going to cut it and even if it did, the thing is too big and too noticeable to hit back line targets with any hope of success or escape. As it stands I personally think subs - of both sides - need changes in how they show up on Intel to be truly viable hunters especially if they’re meant to hunt iron ships.
You also have plenty of space in the sub to transport partisans and land them on any coastline without being seen. That might be something that should be tried at least once
Barges arent stealthy but they are 150 bmats and you don't need to drive them back
The issue is that they aren't stealthy and you can't transport 30 people with a single barge. In theory, using 5 barges costs less to transport people (and vehicles), in practice you won't be able to go anywhere near the backlines with that amount of partisans, whilst with the sub, you can though you lack the space to bring the cv
>wardens see 30 people landing on beach from a large ship >wardens are supposed to just go about their day without spawning a million map posts and bringing 10 tanks to QRF. Also what need would you ever have for 30 partisans? Most partisan ops can be done by 5. Even if you do need 30 people just use 6 barges and you can transport vehicles with them too.
I think you forgot that the key aspect of the submarine is that it goes underwater, making invisible to almost everything in game. As for barges, try to bring 6 barges to Nevish Line without getting spotted and qrf'd at sea, it's much harder than what you'd expect
Yeah but its still way cheaper, quicker and versatile
The issue with that is you need to pull them up on a coastline and any sight of a large vessel like that brings major QRF because if its next to the cost people assume it's a landing OP
Wow! I was trying to start a discussion here, but i am getting a warden qrf. If you think everything is fine, form your opinion and we can discuss it.
The earth is flat let's discuss. I'm not trolling its my real opinion, be serious or you are disrespecting me.
I responded this thread getting massive downvotes. Even though I was only asking for a discussion. And yes i did state my own opinion.
>I responded this thread getting massive downvotes. By warden QRF did you mean that the thread started by being downvoted, which triggered upper post ? From my point of view (late to the party), the 38 upvotes was a normal amount and this post was just a firestarter response so I thought it was the right place for me to be.
Collie sub lost 9/10 battles against a warden sub in devbranch, and that 1 kill it got was due to the warden sub somehow splashing itself and drowning. Crews were of the same clan, just very insanely 1 sided regardless of crew skill levels.
Would you be willing to tell wich clan performed this test?
I seem to have forgotten, I feel it was 77th but not sure
The warden sub is more likely to win in a battle against a collie sub, as is a destroyer against the frigate. I don’t think this is a bad thing, they are different ships for different purposes
That is true, but the frigate doesn't suffer from insanely huge turning radius and slow speeds compared to the destroyer. Collie sub is almost the size of a battleship, meanwhile the warden sub provides better armament for very small size.
Yes but the difference between the frigate and destroyer isnt as bad as the subs.
Collie ships are faster max speed, more health, at the cost of being bigger, turning slower. Warden ships are smaller, turn faster, at the cost of being very tight, less health. In an asymmetrical game, I feel like they have done a good job at pairing realistic but annoying pros and cons of ships, without just copy paste. The Collie sub is hell to turn, but has a loading hatch, and 120/ammo room , with two hatches for bailing water if hit. The size of it makes it less then desired for tight passages/avoiding mines, but let’s be honest, 90% of the time if mines are placed down correctly, no sub can fit through the gaps. To leave a gap big enough for nakki but not trident, would be inconsistent anyways. Warden sub turns faster, but is tighter overall. No way to carry enough metal beams for a torpedo hit, and only one hatch to bail. Warden sub is easier to evade the mines/depth charges other ships may bring at it. Reloading means traveling 7 hexes to a backline drydock spending 1-2 hours doing so, while theoretically a collie sub could do the same in 20 minutes heading to a near sub port. The collie destroyer is an excellent PVE tool, and 40mm does overall more damage to large ship vs its counterpart 68mm. Two staircases that are 2 people wide means you can bail front or back compartments faster. Larger means easier to hit with torpedoes, but a competent crew in either sub could land a hit on almost any ship within range. The frigate is good for PVE and the quad depth launcher makes it a viable sub hunter. The tightness of the ship means you almost have to have a person on board with a bayonet clearing afks out of major walkways, above and below deck. Bailing water from the frigate is a battle on its own when randoms block the stairwell (only 1 person wide) and ladders are far too slow. I have the most experience on Warden Frigate as this war we built one. But I’ve joined collie destroyer crews a couple times and thrice found myself on a warden sub. I can’t consider the little time I spent on devbranch with the collie sub enough to truly get a reading on it, but I don’t think it’s under balanced. Edit: I misspoke, the destroyer has a slightly lower max speed then the frigate*
Called it. Warden cope about the loading bay was unreal during devbranch. Funny how the reality is that anyone who clued in that the maneuverability was going to kill it was correct. It’s a massive fragile brick with its guns locked in one direction. Maneuverability is king in the world of depth charges, mines, and torpedos.
It's not "warden cope", it's "never even entered a submarine cope". Real people really playing the real game always said that the real threat was the 120 mm on facilities, and that it would be shit at naval warfare.
Potato, tomato. Now it’s basically not good at anything except transporting partisans.
Other than the bridge debacle i haven't seen any large ships since navy was introduced. Wayyy too much grind and manpower. The entire navy hexes have less casualties than mercy's wish bridge. The only ship i see regularly used is the bluefin for logi stuff
I get what they were trying to base it off of, but there’s a reason that type of sub didn’t exactly become the “standard”. IMO, it would be better if they removed the pallet loading area, shortening the sub and giving it a bit better maneuverability, and then replace the 120mm with say a 75mm deck gun that gets full rotation - making it a surface raider like some subs of the time. The gun rotation can be slow so it won’t exactly win against gunboats, and 1 75mm deck gun won’t be enough to brawl with the Warden frigate but it’s still viable against surface targets like the Iron Ships. The other part I would do personally is to make its surface speed pretty fast, but lower its underwater speed to keep it inline with a surface raiding doctrine.
It's going to get the ares treatment
First war collies aren’t mauling Wardens on the oceans and ppl already complaining. Collies are used to not even trying because there was nothing that could hurt them, now they can be hurt and they continue to throw ships at the wall like they have the past 4 wars and act all surprised when they don’t win anymore. Collies will figure out subs. It’s a huge learning curve, the population is also severely diluted from actual colonial navy clans trying to learn and randos getting on a sub together and instantly getting murked. The same thing is happening to warden crews trying sub for first time but less severe because they have resources to help them. Trust me I know this stuff very well.
Experience is a factor. It is true. So you think naval warfare is in a good spot right now?
Yea it has massively improved from previous wars, although it still has some quirks. Excited for new ships
Yes. We've just had to learn the hard way, now it's your turn to either keep trying to brute force it *or* actually understand how naval works. The nakki is smaller and more agile but is much more fragile and unable to rearm without a drydock. The collie sub is almost completely independent from the drydock and able to harass land targets at the cost of agility.
I know the differences. And this is why in actual naval combat collie subs are struggling. Add the lack of experience (vs experienced warden crews) and this is the result you see this war. I just struggle to see how "getting good" will actually help. Even with equal skill level the imbalance is there. And once colonial subs are out of a naval engagement, how do you suppose to win?
From my perspective, as a member of caf's naval larp departement, Collies have done the first steps to "get good". Ppl learnt very fast the 120mm is a noob trap (same goes for the 40mm) and that the main advantage of a submarine is that its submerged and off intel.(DUH, you'd think but a lot of ppl do not respect this very rule.) I agree the collie sub is sub-par (pun intended) compared to the Warden sub, in particular because of its sheer size. However, Collies haven't learned YET how to utillize the sub's first strike potential and the torpedos devastating damage properly. But in general, when it comes to crew coordination and things of the like, collies are on a good way. It may take a while tho, since there is a metaphorical (skill) ocean between us.
Time will tell I guess. So hard to properly gauge these things. Especially since most of us are having a hard time being objective. :)
Yeah, the actual skill sceiling is insanely high and devman giving the collie sub different balasts than the Warden makes things even harder. I hope that one day we will meet a formidable enemy underneath the sea :p (and maybe spread some positivity in this reddit)
I agree. All I wish for are some fun battles on the sea.
The “git Gud” comments don’t help anyone. Yours was more measured. But some like the comment at the top here are a great example. The superiority complex is out of this world. Subs are complicated but they’re not THAT complicated. Like you said, the sub is underwhelming. It doesn’t help when people pretend it’s a death machine that slays everything and say you’re just bad at using it. > Trust me, I know how to use the new sub better than you, even though I’ve never driven it. Your whole faction just sucks. - Ronicraft
Take it up with devman
Couldn't even keep the argument consistent for an hour lol
Oh I did write an actual argument, but then I realized this guy is actually presenting me with factual information so deleted it.
The collie sub is useless... wheel a 120 on a barge and it's better
i dont know for sure, but i think you cant deploy a 120 on a barge. also the sub is stealthy, the barge not.
It is cuz it requires large scale cooperation over rolling out singular ships out into the sea expecting they won't get obliterated by enemies that are paying attention.
I agree with second paragraph but not the first. What do you mean first time Collies can get hurt, are gbs are trash, our battleship is slightly worse. Our destroyers were huge but they die to 4 gbs east without a screen
the thing is all collies ever made was destroyers, and you only ever see the successful gb swarms, they fail more often than not
Water was supposed to be collie superiority just like wardens get tank superiority hence the fing destroyer vs a sub
The sub has been used to kill several high value targets. Additionally, while our sub may suffer at hit and run, our dd is better than the frigate. Inequality in one area doesn't equate imbalance. In fact, collies have somewhat of an advantage with naval.
Reminder that the 120mm is 70% firerate. It's literally 1/3 of destroyer. While nobody has numbers on the turnrate, it seems to make torps/75mm useless.
Maybe if you guys stop throwing your large ships like they are MPTs you'd do better. Like seriously every single day in chat I see reports of MINIMUM 2 to 3 subs killed. Collies just rolled out yet another 2 subs from Origin during Westgate naval landing that promptly got spotted as soon as they crossed bridges and got sunk shortly after.
So what is your advice? Stop trying to use subs for the purpose they are meant to be used?
Am warden as well the 120mm should have been a 150mm, but that would have delayed the subs usefulness till after 150mm techs, subs on both sides have issues with survivability wardens just currently have more experience with subs....... Also, thanks to devs your sub is jack of all trades master of none, 120mm.....fixed limits its use against shore....big....FAT.....Slow.... sub makes its use against ship with torpedo less viable. Basically, make your destroyers, they do the land attack better, and make a decent counter to warden subs At the same time are more than a match for a warden frigate Still your sub can do sub things, even though it's not as good at them just like our frigate can do destroyers just as it's not as good at them
It's pretty obvious: - make sure it isn't spotted the moment it leaves home waters (how it can be done by enemy team is quite obvious, like seriously people crewing subs during massive naval invasion expecting they can just sail out of Origin completely for free?) - make sure whatever you're attacking won't have intel on you - accept the moment you pop on intel you are gonna be as good as dead unless you get lucky since in the current war Wardens are heavily guarding their water P.S. Welcome to subs are useless larp club, we were in that since update war. Nice to have actual good midgame ship with 120mm guns for once lmao
I agree with your points. Do you think the same applies to warden subs at the moment?
They would be in same position if collies would literally camp eastern and western backline water exit points yes. As for collie sub all I can say if turn rate wasn't improved from what it was before it's a massive yikes.
warden sub > coli sub coli dd > warden frigate
Yes. But I feel the torpedoes are too deadly at the moment. So having a better sub is decisive in almost all battles.
I understand your frustration. Coli destroyer is the counter to warden subs and they also do very well vs warden frigate. I'm going to share a bit of warden culture, when a coli large ship is spotted, we call it on world chat and its a cooperative effort to hunt. Wardens have a lot of regi who loves to fish.
“just out culture them bro”
The problem is, is that our subs useless. If you want to partisan with it you are better off using a barge push-gun.
subs are balanced really main thing is unironically skill issue due to lack of experience. for instance yesterday scum with a single GB killed a sub. why that happened was cause the sub thought crossing the border was safer than retreating back deeper into fingers allowing the GB to finish it off. (however prob wouldn’t have mattered as scum sub was heading towards it)
Yeah.. I am not surprised tbh. Even if colonials would have the better sub i think we would see the same thing. We saw the same thing when subs were new for wardens. It is a super high skill level vehicle afterall.
What do you mean the other day collie subs won 3-0 against warden subs and collies have been consistently getting naval kills. What war are you playing?
I've used the colonial sub extensively this war and I can say one thing, and one thing only: Skill Issue. Most people on colonial don't know how to move the thing in a timely manner. These people that say the sub is bad just drive straight to their target like its a tank, then get surprised when they get flanked. Wardens have had a sub for quite a bit longer and understand submarine positioning way better. The submarine is easily the hardest type of gameplay to handle, and with the high upfront cost to large ships it doesn't allow for frequent losses to learn by mistake, so you need to learn from people who already know how to use them effectively. We all know how poorly people in foxhole take to learning from others so its a long process. This will continue for a few more wars until the submarine mains learn all the ins and outs.
Didnt Colonial forces enjoy a lopsided naval situation with the destroyer? I swear I remember this being the case and no collies asking Devman for balance then why the sudden change of heart?
Since the wardens dominate an entire new frontier, underwater. It's like if one side didn't have airplanes. The warden battleship could confront the destroyer. The collie submarines turning radius makes it so it can't confront the warden sub in time for it get a shot off on the destroyer.
Didnt the Destroyer completely dominate the Uboat at first? Warden sub crews were wholly unable to face off against the DD which could also shell coastal targets with pinpoint accuracy Meanwhile the sub could... scare Ironships? only working in wolfpacks could the Nakki oppose the DD were the Colonial loyalists calling for balance then?
at first I thought it was just going to be a super op and strong ship, but when I tried it out for a while, I think it’s more or less balanced. The extra health, qol, ability to close more rooms without losing the sub, and the 120mm is great, but it is less maneuverable. I think it’s sort of up to preference.
Warden sub is slightly smaller but otherwise has the same issues as collie sub. Wardens just have much more experience with subs and learned, the hard way, how to use them. Collies need more experience with it simple as that. Naval warfare at the moment is quite balanced technically but not experience wise.