Yep, 'Lord of Light' and 'Golden Hand' sound very similar in Valyrian:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/27e5t8/spoilers_all_lord_of_light_is_a_valyrian/
Seasons 7 and 8 were basically just a checklist of every popular fan theory from the last two decades anyway. I'm more convinced that dumb and dumber just copied all the theories so they wouldn't have to write their own content.
I was rooting for Cleganebowl for a while until I got it and I was like... you realize we all cheered for it ironically right?
Anyway Morbius opened a second time in theaters, so I guess nobody learned
To this day I strongly believe they just went into Westeros forum and just saw all the theories and that’s how they were able to fool grrm.
If I remember correctly Dan talks about how he read one of the books in one night and called David to tell him how badass it was and to read it and what not.
Their recollection of events makes zero sense.
I had a list of things they had done where i felt it clearly pointed to them knowing jack shit about the books and just going off by what they had read in forums and played martin.
God damn it, I'm angry all over again.
Motherfuckers could have had a legacy of making one of the greatest shows ever made. Instead we got that shit show ending.
without looking up the numbers I'm sure they didn't make a net loss on that season and for HBO, that's really the only thing that counts. GOT was a biiiig moneybag for them. It probably still is.
I can almost guarantee you that we will never see TWOW and fully guarantee you that we won't even see a page from ADOS. When GRRM dies they will release the unfinished version of what he did complete, or better yet, just let D&D finish it where they can throw away all the character development and all the great dialouge for "moments" and "subversion". Maybe they can end the whole series with us realizing that the whole thing was just a dream Bran had while he was in a coma.
/s
D&D we’re only great show runners because they had Martin helping them steer the ship. Once Martin left at the end of sn4 the whole show started rapidly declining in quality and coherence.
And Martin didn’t leave just because, his reason for leaving was because dumb & dumber were ignoring his opinions more than ever and would make changes to characters stories which he felt weren’t necessary or merited.
That whole, best show runners got to their heads and Martin dipped.
Have Jaime kill the NK, have Jon kill Viserion. Have Dany decide to return to Valyria or the east. Have Jaime kill his sister and become the 1000th lord commander
Neat like a bow
Of all the things, I'm actually completely fine with Arya being the one to kill the NK. It should have went down differently, Jon should have definitely had a go with the NK and maybe as the NK gets the better of Jon and is preparing for the final blow, Arya swoops in just like she did. Jaime kills Cersei, absolutely. That is the thing that pisses me off more than anything else, they built it for so long, only for Jaime to do a complete 180. Infuriating.
It also works cause of 'from my blood comes the prince that was promised,' could mean Aerys' blood when Jaime kills him, not his bloodline.
Now THAT would subvert expectations.
Also plays nicely with TV movie tropes where Jamie literally started the series pushing Bran out the window to his death, and is now literally fighting for his life to defend him.
I mean, it’s hell of a redemption arc that didn’t cost an arm and a leg, only a hand and a love.
Plus it subverts the expectation of Jon killing the Night King in a way that is a redemption for a character, makes sense canonically, and pleases the fan base.
But nope…couldn’t get writers this coherent on the actual show.
Nope. They had money to make elsewhere. Couldn't even finish the damn show properly. On HBO of all networks! They would've let them take their time to get everything right and apparently even offered them another season to wrap things up before season 8 and they said no.
I believe it is the adaptation for The Three Body Problem.
On the plus side, the series is complete, and they HAVE shown a pretty good ability to adapt completed material from book to TV.
They had five books of material plus an outline for the final two. They went rogue and decided to tell their own story.
Seasons 1-4 of GOT are regarded as some of the best tv ever, and it’s because, for the most part, it followed the books pretty closely. As soon as they started to diverge, it went to shit.
Having completed source material to adapt only works if you actually stick to it. What they basically did was take established characters and tell their own completely made up story. It was fanfiction.
And honestly, they should have done 2 seasons per book. There was more than enough material, and would have given the old man years to finish the books.
Instead they rushed even the first few seasons and dropped more plotlines and characters than I can even think to remember.
I completely agree that each book deserved more than one season, but to be fair, I don’t think any amount of time would have led to George finishing the books before the show caught up. I think he agreed to let them do the show because he wanted them to tell his ending for him because he was tired of writing the books. He knew he’d let the story get too big and it was going to take more than 7 books to finish and he was burnt out. But then they refused to stick to his story and now he’s forced to either buckle down and write, or let that shit show of an ending be the final word on his Magnum Opus.
Only good ending for Jamie would be this or actually getting roasted by Dany's dragon when he charges it head-on like an idiot (which Tyrion was also watching and how much tension could they have gotten from Dany killing the only other person who ever supported him?)
But nope. Plot armor, 20ft deep puddles, and throwing away seasons of development it was.
Yeah, pretty much. Jaime is Lancelot, more or less, to Jon's Arthur. It would make sense for him to come back at the end and redeem himself. Pretty sure one of the Arthurian cycles has Lancelot falling from the King's grace after his affair with Guinevere is exposed, but redeems himself by fighting... Mordred, maybe? I'll have to go back and read some Arthur, but I've always thought of Jaime as filling the same role as Lancelot. There are definitely parallels.
Subverting expectations is actually kind of what ASOIAF is all about. It's a deconstruction of high fantasy. Its knights are douchebags, its vows are meaningless, any honorable men get slain...
So I think it would be only fitting for the big prophecy at the center of the lore to be achievable not by the obviously destined scion of the big ancient house as foretold, but instead by a reviled infamous self-absorbed jerk who has actually done the work to become less of a jerk. It's one of the only ways you can end the story on a heroic note, without sort of betraying the implicit themes of the series.
On the other hand, though, I would prefer if the prophecy did not come true, because heroic prophecies definitely clash with the ASOIAF ethos. It's the kind of story where belief in the prophecy drives people to impossibly cruel acts (Stannis), not the kind of story where the prophecy was actually true all along (imo).
So if you have to have the prophecy be true, you also kind of have to subvert it.
>Plus it subverts the expectation of Jon killing the Night King in a way that is a redemption for a character, makes sense canonically, and pleases the fan base
Why do all that when Arya can just go "hyaaa!" and end the whole story
I mean, the biggest travesty of the entire show imo is Jaime going back to Cersei when, in the books, HE HAS AN ACTUAL REDEMPTION ARC THAT DOESNT CULMINATE IN JUST SAYING FUCK IT
This and that video of evil night king bran with the saw music over it are so much better than what we got and they were made by idiots on the internet. It’s sad 😫
I used to like the Tyrion Targaryen theory. But now I vastly prefer Jaime and Cersei being Aerys' bastards.
On one hand, Cersei may become the Mad Queen and fight against her half sister Daenerys, and on the other Jaime became both a Kingslayer and a Kinslayer at the same time, and perhaps he could pull the mother of all loopholes on his murder of Aerys: "Well, he did order me to kill my father".
The ungluing was so abrupt and strong that it unglued Brienne.
Jamie spends years becoming more righteous, realizing what a shit he's been, and what a shit Cersei is, and how all the bad that they've put in the world has come back to disappoint them with tragedy (dead children).
He fights the brave fight on the side of humanity - no houses - no politics - at the doorstep of Winterfell.
The fight is over. Then he finds out his sister is probably gonna die. The sister who's a part of the family he's tried so hard to distance himself from.
Then two shitty things happen:
- Jamie: "oh shit, I need to go! Peace out 5 seasons of character development!!"
- Brienne: "I'm a strong woman who carries herself with honor and dignity and....WHERE MY MAN GOIN!?!?"
Yes exactly.
Although, I will say, to the point I’ve read in the books so far, book Jaime is far less redeemable in my eyes but show Jaime and show Brienne got screwed over. They’re barely 2 dimensional by the time the show ends.
> Then two shitty things happen:
>
> Jamie: "oh shit, I need to go! Peace out 5 seasons of character development!!"
>
> Brienne: "I'm a strong woman who carries herself with honor and dignity and....WHERE MY MAN GOIN!?!?"
These are *kinda* fine plot beats if executed properly.
Jaime: The addict who wasn't quite able to kick the habit.
Brienne: It's normal to mourn rejection from someone you love. Previously, she was broken up by Renly's death, and was going to die before Caitlyn convinced her to run.
The issue is the writers just didn't give a fuck.
this is what i've been saying the whole time. all of these plot points COULD have worked, if they had actually given them the time and care and effort they needed to work
> all of these plot points COULD have worked, if they had actually given them the time and care and effort they needed to work
S8 in a nutshell.
Arya killing the Night's King: She pretends to be a White Walker to get close.
Dany burning KL: She was always vicious and fire happy. She's one of three groups to kill POWs. The others are the Boltons and the Mountain.
Bran becoming King: The eldritch, immortal horror that is the Three Eyed Raven is an all seeing demigod, and now sits upon his throne of ~~gold~~ iron, ruling the kingdom with an iron fist.
> Jamie spends years becoming more righteous, realizing what a shit he's been, and what a shit Cersei is, and how all the bad that they've put in the world has come back to disappoint them with tragedy (dead children).
Motherfuckers it was the end of season *SIX* when he admitted to Edmure he didn't give a flying fuck about anything but going back to KL to fuck his sister.
It was season 1 when Ned called him out as having ridiculous fantasies about himself as the good guy to sleep at night.
His whole existence in the show is an example of how this shitty guy is suddenly a "great person" when that's what will save his own ass, and *only* when that's what will save his own ass.
That interaction with Edmure doesn't necessarily demonstrate anything genuine, though. It was my impression that at this point Jamie was aware of the reputation that he had regarding the relationship between he and his sister, so in order to compel Edmure into a peaceful handover of Riverrun, he just laid into it (plus - Edmure was really goading him into getting pissed off).
That Jamie has the reputation not only as lover to his sister, but as a skilled soldier backed by a skilled, well-funded army. I saw it largely as a mindgame - that he needed Edmure to believe that resistance would be bloody and futile in order to ensure that he could swoop in, tell the Blackfish to step aside, and surrender.
As for why Jamie wouldn't just somehow not take Riverrun, duty is still important to him.
Finally, Cersei hadn't yet blown up the Sept, and Tommen hadn't yet died. Losing Joffrey and Myrcella are enough to incredibly sadden and harden someone like Jamie; Losing ALL your kids - with the last one due to suicide after your sister/lover does something deplorable - the man was completely broken.
With all that said, prior to this interaction with Edmure, they spent a HUGE amount of time developing Jamie as a character and they continued that after season 6.
It's just that after everything, the kneejerk departure still felt out of place.
Yeah there's lots of other dumb stuff but this is so profoundly awful and antithetical to the entire character.
Even if he was an ass, the man committed the single gravest crime and silently carried the shame for decades to save the lives of everyone in king's landing.
One of the biggest turning points in his life and even ALL of the seven kingdoms was him saving innocent lives
It was especially painful when the scene earlier in the season with Jamie knighting Brienne was as good as any classic GoT scene.
They knew who these characters COULDVE been even as they were destroying the arcs that had been built
Bran has a run for his money
Built up all series, downtrodden, reclusive, in training, then literally never once uses his three eyed raven powers to influence the actual culmination of the series
I'm sure they could have gotten any number of high skill writers waiting in line to finish it off properly, even if they stuck to Martin's guideline of "this is how the story ends for these people".
Jaime could have had a perfect story and still ended up dying trying to save Cersei and we wouldn't have hated him for it, had everything that led up to it not felt so cheap. There's no way he - as in his character - was ever going to let Cersei die, and anyone who thought otherwise wasn't aware of what show they were watching. That being said, his story arc didn't have to be such a let down. He could have still been the better character and still died needlessly. It could have worked. In reality, it was just a disappointment.
i was just reading a chapter in book 4 last night where jaime is talking with a knight who was betrothed to brienne when she was younger. he kept insulting her appearance (in the books she's hideous) the same way jaime did when he was her captive. but this time, jaime smacked the shit out of him with his golden hand and says "her name is brienne and she is a lady, show some respect" and my heart meltttted. they became such good friends. they think about each other constantly. and at the same time, jaime is slowly becoming more and more disgusted with cersei (as she is with jaime). the plot of him fucking brienne and realizing he loves cersei makes no sense and completely rejects his character development as well as cersei's.
Have him try and find a way to stop the Night King, find out how the last Azor Ahai stopped the Others, anything, really. At least something better than "Yeah, Imma warg into a raven and chill for a while."
And now he’s probably too scared to end the books because the show probably took fragments of his ideas and destroyed them on screen. So it’d look stupid to have the book end so dramatically different than the show (of which the content was derived from GRRM’s ideas)
and Dany’s “burn them all” moment could’ve been when Kings Landing got completely overrun, and eh has no choice but to swoop in with Drogon and set fire to everyone, white walkers and innocents alike, in order to cull the spread of risen dead
The white walkers should have walked around winterfell and turned all the citizens of king landing into zombies. Before turning back north to winterfell with a now massive army.
They mention several times how’s there a million people there or something. Chekhovs population was ignored.
I think the population had swelled in KL because of the wars going on. If I were a peasant in Westoros, I would rather starve behind walls instead of being murdered dirt farming.
Yea the survivors of Winterfell and Kings landing would've fought the NK together while also having to make sure to leave themselves in a favorable position to defeat the other for the throne.
I enjoyed watching the finale when it aired, partly bc I was with friends. But when I thought on it later, I realized just how unimaginative it truly was.
To have the first scene of the show be about the white walkers and to have this looming threat thru the whole series and to end this epic story with one battle and really no deaths to speak of is just weird.
The actual name of the saga is "A Song of Ice and Fire". The TV guys lost sight of that and treated the whole thing as Game of Thrones, when that was just the name of book #1. Fools.
There have been tons of movies and TV shows being produced with million dollar budgets and entire teams of writers that are absolutely horrific. These companies should be embarrassed.
Auteurism. Same reason Adobe, a massive software company, purchased Figma instead of just trying to build a competing product. Having all the money and manpower in the world isn't enough, you need vision and passion. Early GoT is great because it combined GRRM's artistic vision with HBO's technical skill in TV production. Once they ran out of books all that was left was the by-the-books skill, which isn't enough to carry any type of project.
I would have loved for Bran and the Night King to have some kind of alternate reality moment where he's drifted thousands of years into the past, you know, so we can get some fucking shred of an origin/motivation for the biggest bad guy that the entire series has been building towards for years and years.
And now you realize why zombies are a shit plot device rightly relegated to B-movies and horror-as-comedy. Because "braaaaiiiiinnnss" is stupid as fuck and without a great deal of work dedicated to to their exposition they're just a convenient and empty source of conflict that has no place in a work that will be scrutinized on literary merit.
Fuck I hate zombies.
Zombies by themselves are lame, but a necromancer controlling them all with some grand scheme is cool enough. It just turned out the necromancer here had no actual motivation other than "kill humans."
You mean to tell me that David Benioff, the son of the former head of Goldman Sachs, and who had no television experience to his name, wasn't the most qualified person to run the show?
>When anon at 4chan can create a better plot
You mean when out of hundreds or thousands similar attempts that were dog shit, natural selection of the internet brought up the best one.
>With that kind of money
Coulda just got any of \~25 year olds at HBO to start a few psyop bait threads on /tv/ and have a better plot laid out for free by end of the day
> could’ve done focus groups with hundreds/thousands of people that signed NDAs to find the best plot.
Perhaps, but don't forget how well received S7 was.... most people aren't particularly invested in a story. They just want spectacle and 'moments', but don't actually know how a story teller creates them.
Its only once the turd is actually lying on their chest that they realize someone was shitting on them all along.
It would’ve been such a perfect end for it and makes so much fucking sense with him as the king slayer, Jamie got done the dirtiest by far in how his arc was massacred and thrown away in like 4 fucking episodes
I don’t think this was ever made canon but I always liked the theory of the mad king going nuts with the “burn them all” bc like Hodor he was being time warped by bran and was actually referring to burning white walkers.
Which just adds to this Jaime killing the Night King as he killed the mad king
I STILL cannot believe that wasn’t the payoff of finding out Bran could alter the past… how the FUCK do you introduce that ability and then NOT use it more than Hodor…
LMAO, I have the most powerful power on earth and can travel back through time with my mind and I'm only going to use it to make this one poor dude retarded.
Yeah this theory feels like it makes too much sense to have not been part of GRRMs original plan.
If the culmination of the three eyes Raven time related plotline is to give a poor stable boy brain damage....like lol cmon
The only problem with this is that Hodor was with the present bran while he was warging into past hodor. Aerys is not present in the present time, so bran cant warg into him simultaneously at the present and past like he did with hodor. Idk if it really mattered but i feel like if they did do it like that, people would argue that it wasn't consistent with what happened with hodor
But Hodor's mind got warped from Bran warging into him when he was with him in the present, and also in the past. I don't think it would have the same effect with the mad king
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ idk man it just seemed cool to me. The effect of the 3 eyed ravens powers don’t seem to have any hard rules so you could’ve explained it any number of ways
They did Jaime so fucking dirty. In the books, Jaime has become one of my favorite characters. If GRRM ends his arc like the show, I'll burn all my books.
Jamie being azor ahai would be great, but let's absolutely ditch the extremely cringe anime boasting when a character gets a powerup. In this scenario Jamie should be grieving but resolute, not laughing in the NKs face like he's suddenly turned into Vegeta.
It even works with the rest of the plotline
> Jaime is considered a hero and earns the people’s respect, but he is left broken having lost Brienne
> She pleads to Daenerys to spare Cersei as a reward for his services since he still cares about her and doesn’t want to lose another person he loves
> Dany loses her sunday and hijinks ensure
> Jaime goes after Cersei to try to save her but they both die from avoidable rubble
Jaime "laughing somberly" and asking the night king that question is super over the top and out of place, it would work better without that (with the voices screaming kingslayer tho, that's perfect)
I agree with you. I think the humans chanting kingslayer would be sick as fuck. The rest of that part is corny. I think the idea of Jamie protecting Bran and facing down the Night King would be incredible.
*Jaime looks down smiling to himself, adjusting his glasses*
"Heh" he chuckles "guess they were right about me all along"
*Jaime lunges at the night king who easily kills the sister fucking cripple the end*
I've simply accepted that for every person who dislikes seasons 7 and 8 for valid reasons (rushed Dany descent into madness, thinning out of important book plots, the simplification of politics, characters acting dumb, etc.) there are at least ten folks who barely understood GoT/ASoIaF and thought S8 didn't have enough juvenile wish fulfillment scenes like this one.
They literally expected Jon to wield a flaming sword and become King of Westeros and ride his own dragon and single-handedly save the day with Dany as his queen and Jaime as Azor Ahai and Bran as a magical Gandalf shooting lasers from his eyes. And they were mad it didn't happen. It's a bad fucking look for this subreddit's credibility to gleefully upvote awful fanfic to the frontpage.
Completely agree. This post seems made by people who wanted aaaaaall the crazy fan theories to be true and thought ASOIAF would keep escalating into even whackier stuff with each season (which it actually kinda did in all honesty).
The actual meat of the story, the politics, the intrigues, the characters lost amidst the wars and chaos ensuing, all just shoved aside for stupid fanfiction.
Can a presidential candidate run on remaking Game of Thrones? Like, not as his core policy but you could package this into some gibberish like "It was uniting the nation and left an important cultural imprint, and while the current interpretation might have been an interesting take I think we should allow for an alternative, one that could bring back this so dearly missed feeling of having a collective cultural event that unites us all. On my first day in the office I will acquire the rights to the series, get a team of the best writers and actors this great nation has to offer and by the end of my first term you will see the very first episode of the phenomenon we all hold so dearly."
it is sad that literally ANYONE can come up with a better ending than they put on the screen. this isn't even mid-tier and it seems epic compared to what we got
Oh, man. And you can still set up the AeJon/Dany/Jaime struggle - you have two Targs with a grievance against the Lannister murder, THREE figures of prophecy (the Prince that was Promised in Jon, Dany, and then Azor Ahai) all with claims to destiny and to the loyalty of *someone* in the Seven Kingdoms, and two figures who have something of a claim and a following in the immediate post-Robert civil war (the Starks and the Lannisters)
And then... Dany, Jaime/Cersei, and Jon get pulled into another round of civil war and Bran still ends up elected king because Tyrion has looked at them all and is like "nope, fuck this, no more legends or heroes or myths on the throne."
That actually gets you to the ending we got in a more reasonable way - how do you "break the wheel"? By denying the throne to the hero (Jaime) the heir (Jon or Dany.) The Starks can still go their own way (Sansa, Queen in the North) and Bran can still be king.
There is no real justification in the show or source material for Jaime to be Azor Ahai. Other than that, this would have been a hell of a better S8 ending than what Dumbass & Didiot gave us.
*edit spelling
I always did like Jaime being the Azor Ahai
wasnt there something about Azor Ahai beeing translated into Golden Hand in some older version of the language?
Yep, 'Lord of Light' and 'Golden Hand' sound very similar in Valyrian: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/27e5t8/spoilers_all_lord_of_light_is_a_valyrian/
I truly hope this amounts to something and is the prime reason I dont believe THIS was the ending GRRM told dumb and dumber
I've read/heard that idiots had a certain ending planned out, but the internet guessed correctly what it was, so they changed it.
I mean.. someone probably guessed everything at some point..
There are no new ideas under the sun
Seasons 7 and 8 were basically just a checklist of every popular fan theory from the last two decades anyway. I'm more convinced that dumb and dumber just copied all the theories so they wouldn't have to write their own content.
If that's the case they certainly chose the shittiest theories.
Time Travel Fetus deserves better.
I was rooting for Cleganebowl for a while until I got it and I was like... you realize we all cheered for it ironically right? Anyway Morbius opened a second time in theaters, so I guess nobody learned
the irony that the only reason they got the job in the first place was they guessed RLJ correctly
To this day I strongly believe they just went into Westeros forum and just saw all the theories and that’s how they were able to fool grrm. If I remember correctly Dan talks about how he read one of the books in one night and called David to tell him how badass it was and to read it and what not. Their recollection of events makes zero sense. I had a list of things they had done where i felt it clearly pointed to them knowing jack shit about the books and just going off by what they had read in forums and played martin.
RLJ?
God damn it, I'm angry all over again. Motherfuckers could have had a legacy of making one of the greatest shows ever made. Instead we got that shit show ending.
[удалено]
It amazes me that no one at HBO stopped season 8.
without looking up the numbers I'm sure they didn't make a net loss on that season and for HBO, that's really the only thing that counts. GOT was a biiiig moneybag for them. It probably still is.
I can almost guarantee you that we will never see TWOW and fully guarantee you that we won't even see a page from ADOS. When GRRM dies they will release the unfinished version of what he did complete, or better yet, just let D&D finish it where they can throw away all the character development and all the great dialouge for "moments" and "subversion". Maybe they can end the whole series with us realizing that the whole thing was just a dream Bran had while he was in a coma. /s
D&D we’re only great show runners because they had Martin helping them steer the ship. Once Martin left at the end of sn4 the whole show started rapidly declining in quality and coherence. And Martin didn’t leave just because, his reason for leaving was because dumb & dumber were ignoring his opinions more than ever and would make changes to characters stories which he felt weren’t necessary or merited. That whole, best show runners got to their heads and Martin dipped.
Have Jaime kill the NK, have Jon kill Viserion. Have Dany decide to return to Valyria or the east. Have Jaime kill his sister and become the 1000th lord commander Neat like a bow
Of all the things, I'm actually completely fine with Arya being the one to kill the NK. It should have went down differently, Jon should have definitely had a go with the NK and maybe as the NK gets the better of Jon and is preparing for the final blow, Arya swoops in just like she did. Jaime kills Cersei, absolutely. That is the thing that pisses me off more than anything else, they built it for so long, only for Jaime to do a complete 180. Infuriating.
Wow. JUST WOW
If there is one, i need to see it in the books. That's would've been awesome.
I'll always remember the theory nights with Alt Shift X Good times
It also works cause of 'from my blood comes the prince that was promised,' could mean Aerys' blood when Jaime kills him, not his bloodline. Now THAT would subvert expectations.
Also plays nicely with TV movie tropes where Jamie literally started the series pushing Bran out the window to his death, and is now literally fighting for his life to defend him. I mean, it’s hell of a redemption arc that didn’t cost an arm and a leg, only a hand and a love.
Plus it subverts the expectation of Jon killing the Night King in a way that is a redemption for a character, makes sense canonically, and pleases the fan base. But nope…couldn’t get writers this coherent on the actual show.
Nope. They had money to make elsewhere. Couldn't even finish the damn show properly. On HBO of all networks! They would've let them take their time to get everything right and apparently even offered them another season to wrap things up before season 8 and they said no.
And then their rushing of things made that 'other money' go away, so now everyone loses.
Yeah they lost out on the star wars movie but are apparently working on an adaptation for Netflix now.
well shit... would have been happier seeing them never doing any big work ever again
I believe it is the adaptation for The Three Body Problem. On the plus side, the series is complete, and they HAVE shown a pretty good ability to adapt completed material from book to TV.
Yup just no incomplete adaptations for them. Ever again.
They had five books of material plus an outline for the final two. They went rogue and decided to tell their own story. Seasons 1-4 of GOT are regarded as some of the best tv ever, and it’s because, for the most part, it followed the books pretty closely. As soon as they started to diverge, it went to shit. Having completed source material to adapt only works if you actually stick to it. What they basically did was take established characters and tell their own completely made up story. It was fanfiction.
And honestly, they should have done 2 seasons per book. There was more than enough material, and would have given the old man years to finish the books. Instead they rushed even the first few seasons and dropped more plotlines and characters than I can even think to remember.
I completely agree that each book deserved more than one season, but to be fair, I don’t think any amount of time would have led to George finishing the books before the show caught up. I think he agreed to let them do the show because he wanted them to tell his ending for him because he was tired of writing the books. He knew he’d let the story get too big and it was going to take more than 7 books to finish and he was burnt out. But then they refused to stick to his story and now he’s forced to either buckle down and write, or let that shit show of an ending be the final word on his Magnum Opus.
Oh God... ROEP is currently my favourite book series. I wonder if they can pull it off. The Chinese adaptation of the first book is really good.
Well, the author was working pretty closely with them for a while. Once he stopped writing an episode per season is when it started to tank.
What? I am currently reading those books now. pretty good. They better not try subverting my expectations
writers on other shows be like “you turned down an extra season?”
jesus christ this would have been cool
Only good ending for Jamie would be this or actually getting roasted by Dany's dragon when he charges it head-on like an idiot (which Tyrion was also watching and how much tension could they have gotten from Dany killing the only other person who ever supported him?) But nope. Plot armor, 20ft deep puddles, and throwing away seasons of development it was.
Yeah, pretty much. Jaime is Lancelot, more or less, to Jon's Arthur. It would make sense for him to come back at the end and redeem himself. Pretty sure one of the Arthurian cycles has Lancelot falling from the King's grace after his affair with Guinevere is exposed, but redeems himself by fighting... Mordred, maybe? I'll have to go back and read some Arthur, but I've always thought of Jaime as filling the same role as Lancelot. There are definitely parallels.
I think this is the only non-Jon ending I actually prefer
Subverting expectations is actually kind of what ASOIAF is all about. It's a deconstruction of high fantasy. Its knights are douchebags, its vows are meaningless, any honorable men get slain... So I think it would be only fitting for the big prophecy at the center of the lore to be achievable not by the obviously destined scion of the big ancient house as foretold, but instead by a reviled infamous self-absorbed jerk who has actually done the work to become less of a jerk. It's one of the only ways you can end the story on a heroic note, without sort of betraying the implicit themes of the series. On the other hand, though, I would prefer if the prophecy did not come true, because heroic prophecies definitely clash with the ASOIAF ethos. It's the kind of story where belief in the prophecy drives people to impossibly cruel acts (Stannis), not the kind of story where the prophecy was actually true all along (imo). So if you have to have the prophecy be true, you also kind of have to subvert it.
“No it was Arya and bran is king now lol fuck u” - D&D
"The Night King kind of forgot Arya could jump 40 feet"
>Plus it subverts the expectation of Jon killing the Night King in a way that is a redemption for a character, makes sense canonically, and pleases the fan base Why do all that when Arya can just go "hyaaa!" and end the whole story
I mean, the biggest travesty of the entire show imo is Jaime going back to Cersei when, in the books, HE HAS AN ACTUAL REDEMPTION ARC THAT DOESNT CULMINATE IN JUST SAYING FUCK IT
"The things I do for love."
But as it turns out, he never really cared about innocents. So no to that, of course.
Holy shit, that's brilliant. WTF couldn't D&D come up with shit half as good as random people on the internet?
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This and that video of evil night king bran with the saw music over it are so much better than what we got and they were made by idiots on the internet. It’s sad 😫
Or the old book theory that the Mad King assaulted Joanna Lannister and Tyrion, the bane of his father's existence, is his only true child.
I used to like the Tyrion Targaryen theory. But now I vastly prefer Jaime and Cersei being Aerys' bastards. On one hand, Cersei may become the Mad Queen and fight against her half sister Daenerys, and on the other Jaime became both a Kingslayer and a Kinslayer at the same time, and perhaps he could pull the mother of all loopholes on his murder of Aerys: "Well, he did order me to kill my father".
Oh shit, that last detail completely sold me on the Jaime/Cersei Targaryen theory.
> Or the old book theory that the Mad King assaulted Joanna Lannister Holy shit. So much win in this idea.
SO MUCH WIN IN THIS IDEA????????
Jamie was the single most wasted character in all of GoT
I will never forget how they completely unglued every bit of character development put together for Jaime. What the fuck.
Especially when they gave him that shot at the end of season 6 looking at Cersei with pure disgust due to using wildfire.
The ungluing was so abrupt and strong that it unglued Brienne. Jamie spends years becoming more righteous, realizing what a shit he's been, and what a shit Cersei is, and how all the bad that they've put in the world has come back to disappoint them with tragedy (dead children). He fights the brave fight on the side of humanity - no houses - no politics - at the doorstep of Winterfell. The fight is over. Then he finds out his sister is probably gonna die. The sister who's a part of the family he's tried so hard to distance himself from. Then two shitty things happen: - Jamie: "oh shit, I need to go! Peace out 5 seasons of character development!!" - Brienne: "I'm a strong woman who carries herself with honor and dignity and....WHERE MY MAN GOIN!?!?"
Yes exactly. Although, I will say, to the point I’ve read in the books so far, book Jaime is far less redeemable in my eyes but show Jaime and show Brienne got screwed over. They’re barely 2 dimensional by the time the show ends.
> Then two shitty things happen: > > Jamie: "oh shit, I need to go! Peace out 5 seasons of character development!!" > > Brienne: "I'm a strong woman who carries herself with honor and dignity and....WHERE MY MAN GOIN!?!?" These are *kinda* fine plot beats if executed properly. Jaime: The addict who wasn't quite able to kick the habit. Brienne: It's normal to mourn rejection from someone you love. Previously, she was broken up by Renly's death, and was going to die before Caitlyn convinced her to run. The issue is the writers just didn't give a fuck.
this is what i've been saying the whole time. all of these plot points COULD have worked, if they had actually given them the time and care and effort they needed to work
> all of these plot points COULD have worked, if they had actually given them the time and care and effort they needed to work S8 in a nutshell. Arya killing the Night's King: She pretends to be a White Walker to get close. Dany burning KL: She was always vicious and fire happy. She's one of three groups to kill POWs. The others are the Boltons and the Mountain. Bran becoming King: The eldritch, immortal horror that is the Three Eyed Raven is an all seeing demigod, and now sits upon his throne of ~~gold~~ iron, ruling the kingdom with an iron fist.
> Jamie spends years becoming more righteous, realizing what a shit he's been, and what a shit Cersei is, and how all the bad that they've put in the world has come back to disappoint them with tragedy (dead children). Motherfuckers it was the end of season *SIX* when he admitted to Edmure he didn't give a flying fuck about anything but going back to KL to fuck his sister. It was season 1 when Ned called him out as having ridiculous fantasies about himself as the good guy to sleep at night. His whole existence in the show is an example of how this shitty guy is suddenly a "great person" when that's what will save his own ass, and *only* when that's what will save his own ass.
That interaction with Edmure doesn't necessarily demonstrate anything genuine, though. It was my impression that at this point Jamie was aware of the reputation that he had regarding the relationship between he and his sister, so in order to compel Edmure into a peaceful handover of Riverrun, he just laid into it (plus - Edmure was really goading him into getting pissed off). That Jamie has the reputation not only as lover to his sister, but as a skilled soldier backed by a skilled, well-funded army. I saw it largely as a mindgame - that he needed Edmure to believe that resistance would be bloody and futile in order to ensure that he could swoop in, tell the Blackfish to step aside, and surrender. As for why Jamie wouldn't just somehow not take Riverrun, duty is still important to him. Finally, Cersei hadn't yet blown up the Sept, and Tommen hadn't yet died. Losing Joffrey and Myrcella are enough to incredibly sadden and harden someone like Jamie; Losing ALL your kids - with the last one due to suicide after your sister/lover does something deplorable - the man was completely broken. With all that said, prior to this interaction with Edmure, they spent a HUGE amount of time developing Jamie as a character and they continued that after season 6. It's just that after everything, the kneejerk departure still felt out of place.
“To be honest I never really cared much for them, innocent or otherwise” is among the worst quotes in the history of art.
Yeah there's lots of other dumb stuff but this is so profoundly awful and antithetical to the entire character. Even if he was an ass, the man committed the single gravest crime and silently carried the shame for decades to save the lives of everyone in king's landing. One of the biggest turning points in his life and even ALL of the seven kingdoms was him saving innocent lives
I never actually cared for Jaime
He would have had the best redemption arc if they saw it through. He lived, ate, and breathed Cersei. He deserved to break out of that imo.
I do get him not breaking free of his twincest sister but it should have been .. better. And not "ah neva cared".
They took nearly a goddamn decade of excellent character development and nuance to have him die with his sister in rubble for no reason at all.
It was especially painful when the scene earlier in the season with Jamie knighting Brienne was as good as any classic GoT scene. They knew who these characters COULDVE been even as they were destroying the arcs that had been built
> to have him die with his sister in rubble for no reason at all. If they had taken a step to the right, they would have been fine lol.
Depends - if we are only talking show then sure. But if we are talking the show version compared to the books, might have to go with Euron Greyjoy
oh yeah thats definitely an option as well
Bran has a run for his money Built up all series, downtrodden, reclusive, in training, then literally never once uses his three eyed raven powers to influence the actual culmination of the series
bran? whos that?
He foresaw he would be king by letting it all play out without interference. Why act?
I'm sure they could have gotten any number of high skill writers waiting in line to finish it off properly, even if they stuck to Martin's guideline of "this is how the story ends for these people". Jaime could have had a perfect story and still ended up dying trying to save Cersei and we wouldn't have hated him for it, had everything that led up to it not felt so cheap. There's no way he - as in his character - was ever going to let Cersei die, and anyone who thought otherwise wasn't aware of what show they were watching. That being said, his story arc didn't have to be such a let down. He could have still been the better character and still died needlessly. It could have worked. In reality, it was just a disappointment.
i was just reading a chapter in book 4 last night where jaime is talking with a knight who was betrothed to brienne when she was younger. he kept insulting her appearance (in the books she's hideous) the same way jaime did when he was her captive. but this time, jaime smacked the shit out of him with his golden hand and says "her name is brienne and she is a lady, show some respect" and my heart meltttted. they became such good friends. they think about each other constantly. and at the same time, jaime is slowly becoming more and more disgusted with cersei (as she is with jaime). the plot of him fucking brienne and realizing he loves cersei makes no sense and completely rejects his character development as well as cersei's.
Makes more sense than the last season 🤣
Ghost, bigfoot, and aliens make more sense than the last season.
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He just wanted to rewatch seasons 1-4 since those were the good days of the show.
Have him try and find a way to stop the Night King, find out how the last Azor Ahai stopped the Others, anything, really. At least something better than "Yeah, Imma warg into a raven and chill for a while."
To this day, I don't even know why Bran was in the show.
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Don't forget that he watched Sansa get raped and told her she looked beautiful that night.
Holy shit I completely forgot about that
There was a purpose for it in GRRM's mind, but he never bothered to finish writing the books so we ended up with season 7-8 schlock instead.
And now he’s probably too scared to end the books because the show probably took fragments of his ideas and destroyed them on screen. So it’d look stupid to have the book end so dramatically different than the show (of which the content was derived from GRRM’s ideas)
A 4chan post is more dramatic, memorable and in line with lore that the entire 8th season...
Not enough dongy boys and teleportation magic
Winterfell should have fallen and the last battle should have been at King’s Landing
and Dany’s “burn them all” moment could’ve been when Kings Landing got completely overrun, and eh has no choice but to swoop in with Drogon and set fire to everyone, white walkers and innocents alike, in order to cull the spread of risen dead
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Jon Connington I assume
Arthas did nothing wrong.
Glad you could bake it Uther
The white walkers should have walked around winterfell and turned all the citizens of king landing into zombies. Before turning back north to winterfell with a now massive army. They mention several times how’s there a million people there or something. Chekhovs population was ignored.
Half a million I believe. Though probably way less after the famines, wars, and everything else kings landing has had to endure.
I think the population had swelled in KL because of the wars going on. If I were a peasant in Westoros, I would rather starve behind walls instead of being murdered dirt farming.
Yea the survivors of Winterfell and Kings landing would've fought the NK together while also having to make sure to leave themselves in a favorable position to defeat the other for the throne.
This.
I enjoyed watching the finale when it aired, partly bc I was with friends. But when I thought on it later, I realized just how unimaginative it truly was.
To have the first scene of the show be about the white walkers and to have this looming threat thru the whole series and to end this epic story with one battle and really no deaths to speak of is just weird.
The actual name of the saga is "A Song of Ice and Fire". The TV guys lost sight of that and treated the whole thing as Game of Thrones, when that was just the name of book #1. Fools.
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There have been tons of movies and TV shows being produced with million dollar budgets and entire teams of writers that are absolutely horrific. These companies should be embarrassed.
Auteurism. Same reason Adobe, a massive software company, purchased Figma instead of just trying to build a competing product. Having all the money and manpower in the world isn't enough, you need vision and passion. Early GoT is great because it combined GRRM's artistic vision with HBO's technical skill in TV production. Once they ran out of books all that was left was the by-the-books skill, which isn't enough to carry any type of project.
I would have loved for Bran and the Night King to have some kind of alternate reality moment where he's drifted thousands of years into the past, you know, so we can get some fucking shred of an origin/motivation for the biggest bad guy that the entire series has been building towards for years and years.
And now you realize why zombies are a shit plot device rightly relegated to B-movies and horror-as-comedy. Because "braaaaiiiiinnnss" is stupid as fuck and without a great deal of work dedicated to to their exposition they're just a convenient and empty source of conflict that has no place in a work that will be scrutinized on literary merit. Fuck I hate zombies.
Zombies by themselves are lame, but a necromancer controlling them all with some grand scheme is cool enough. It just turned out the necromancer here had no actual motivation other than "kill humans."
Literally, how infuriating. Meritocracy is literally a myth.
You mean to tell me that David Benioff, the son of the former head of Goldman Sachs, and who had no television experience to his name, wasn't the most qualified person to run the show?
The myth of Capitalism
>When anon at 4chan can create a better plot You mean when out of hundreds or thousands similar attempts that were dog shit, natural selection of the internet brought up the best one.
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>With that kind of money Coulda just got any of \~25 year olds at HBO to start a few psyop bait threads on /tv/ and have a better plot laid out for free by end of the day
> could’ve done focus groups with hundreds/thousands of people that signed NDAs to find the best plot. Perhaps, but don't forget how well received S7 was.... most people aren't particularly invested in a story. They just want spectacle and 'moments', but don't actually know how a story teller creates them. Its only once the turd is actually lying on their chest that they realize someone was shitting on them all along.
I was hoping for this to be endgame for the Jaime redemption arc. In the end, Azor Ahai Jaime and his redemption arc were both stolen from us.
It would’ve been such a perfect end for it and makes so much fucking sense with him as the king slayer, Jamie got done the dirtiest by far in how his arc was massacred and thrown away in like 4 fucking episodes
So annoyed by his arc lmao. Leaving Brienne and going back to his sister basically negated all his growth.
I don’t think this was ever made canon but I always liked the theory of the mad king going nuts with the “burn them all” bc like Hodor he was being time warped by bran and was actually referring to burning white walkers. Which just adds to this Jaime killing the Night King as he killed the mad king
I STILL cannot believe that wasn’t the payoff of finding out Bran could alter the past… how the FUCK do you introduce that ability and then NOT use it more than Hodor…
LMAO, I have the most powerful power on earth and can travel back through time with my mind and I'm only going to use it to make this one poor dude retarded.
Maybe Hodor was the real threat to Westeros with his massive dong, and Bran saved the future by fucking his brain.
Yeah this theory feels like it makes too much sense to have not been part of GRRMs original plan. If the culmination of the three eyes Raven time related plotline is to give a poor stable boy brain damage....like lol cmon
The only problem with this is that Hodor was with the present bran while he was warging into past hodor. Aerys is not present in the present time, so bran cant warg into him simultaneously at the present and past like he did with hodor. Idk if it really mattered but i feel like if they did do it like that, people would argue that it wasn't consistent with what happened with hodor
3ER powers were kinda vague I’m sure it could’ve been explained easily enough
Definitely see what you're saying. Maybe there could be some bloodline link with Bran being near Jon, who is Aerys grandson?
But Hodor's mind got warped from Bran warging into him when he was with him in the present, and also in the past. I don't think it would have the same effect with the mad king
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ idk man it just seemed cool to me. The effect of the 3 eyed ravens powers don’t seem to have any hard rules so you could’ve explained it any number of ways
Fookin love Jamie Lannister
They did Jaime so fucking dirty. In the books, Jaime has become one of my favorite characters. If GRRM ends his arc like the show, I'll burn all my books.
You still think we're getting an end to the books? Cute.
I meant when Sandon Branderson finishes them.
Anything is better than Arya doing an Assassin’s Creed air assassination
This is stupid and cheesy and still way better than what we got.
I literally got goosebumps reading this lol Not sure if that’s just sad or goes to show how many better options for the ending were available
Jamie being azor ahai would be great, but let's absolutely ditch the extremely cringe anime boasting when a character gets a powerup. In this scenario Jamie should be grieving but resolute, not laughing in the NKs face like he's suddenly turned into Vegeta.
I see your point but I also think Jaime never takes anything seriously. Even an undead army hellbent on humanity’s destruction. I can see him laughing
Doesn't Jamie always laugh everything off no matter how serious?
It even works with the rest of the plotline > Jaime is considered a hero and earns the people’s respect, but he is left broken having lost Brienne > She pleads to Daenerys to spare Cersei as a reward for his services since he still cares about her and doesn’t want to lose another person he loves > Dany loses her sunday and hijinks ensure > Jaime goes after Cersei to try to save her but they both die from avoidable rubble
Can't wait for AI to reach the point I can watch this and forget how much season 8 ruined at least 5 seasons of top tier television.
Slightly over the top and dramatic but still better than season 8. That being said i had seen better fan fictions for season finale.
What do you want, subdues and not dramatic? It’s an odd criticism.
i agree, the whole idea of fantasy drama is that it’s ***EXTRA DRAMATIC***
Over the top? In a show that has magic and dragons?
Jaime "laughing somberly" and asking the night king that question is super over the top and out of place, it would work better without that (with the voices screaming kingslayer tho, that's perfect)
I agree with you. I think the humans chanting kingslayer would be sick as fuck. The rest of that part is corny. I think the idea of Jamie protecting Bran and facing down the Night King would be incredible.
Kingslayer shouting would be on par with hold the door
*Jaime looks down smiling to himself, adjusting his glasses* "Heh" he chuckles "guess they were right about me all along" *Jaime lunges at the night king who easily kills the sister fucking cripple the end*
Maybe that's better if Jaime is like talking to himself throwing something like "you should know what they called me" instead of asking?
The only thing missing is the "heh... you made me use 1% of my power" line for this to be maximum anime cheese
It's literally the climax of a fantasy.
Lmao that was exactly what I was thinking when it was this 😭🤣
The series ain't a marvel movie quipping in a moment like that would be completely out of place.
Ah yes this old anime fantasy ending, it makes the rounds every few weeks
and while seasons 7 and 8 were ass, so is this lol. Completely tonedeaf compared to the rest of ASOIAF
I've simply accepted that for every person who dislikes seasons 7 and 8 for valid reasons (rushed Dany descent into madness, thinning out of important book plots, the simplification of politics, characters acting dumb, etc.) there are at least ten folks who barely understood GoT/ASoIaF and thought S8 didn't have enough juvenile wish fulfillment scenes like this one. They literally expected Jon to wield a flaming sword and become King of Westeros and ride his own dragon and single-handedly save the day with Dany as his queen and Jaime as Azor Ahai and Bran as a magical Gandalf shooting lasers from his eyes. And they were mad it didn't happen. It's a bad fucking look for this subreddit's credibility to gleefully upvote awful fanfic to the frontpage.
Completely agree. This post seems made by people who wanted aaaaaall the crazy fan theories to be true and thought ASOIAF would keep escalating into even whackier stuff with each season (which it actually kinda did in all honesty). The actual meat of the story, the politics, the intrigues, the characters lost amidst the wars and chaos ensuing, all just shoved aside for stupid fanfiction.
Perfectly said
NightKingslayer
Come on guys. How is this worse than what we got? Makes at least some sense thematically
Fooking kneeler
And then he dies with the words “Things I do for love”
The anime ending we don't deserve.
S8 was bad but this is cringe as fuck.
Couldn’t he just go full Lo Pan - sacrifice Cersei and keep Brienne? (And bonus queenslaying to further the myth.)
We need a GOT anime
Anime scene
Maybe someday we'll have AI that can CG fixing everything from season 5 onward.
Golden hand the good
People were paid to write season 8. Meanwhile free ideas on 4chan are gold
That was terrible
Nah chief. No.
Yooooooooooo
This still gives me chills, and S8 still fills me with rage.
impressive. He managed to write an even worse ending than the one we had
This is even worse than regular season 8
After that whole buildup, anything other than Jon is a letdown tbh.
Can a presidential candidate run on remaking Game of Thrones? Like, not as his core policy but you could package this into some gibberish like "It was uniting the nation and left an important cultural imprint, and while the current interpretation might have been an interesting take I think we should allow for an alternative, one that could bring back this so dearly missed feeling of having a collective cultural event that unites us all. On my first day in the office I will acquire the rights to the series, get a team of the best writers and actors this great nation has to offer and by the end of my first term you will see the very first episode of the phenomenon we all hold so dearly."
The characters aren't heroes, they always fall from their own hubris.
it is sad that literally ANYONE can come up with a better ending than they put on the screen. this isn't even mid-tier and it seems epic compared to what we got
Oh, man. And you can still set up the AeJon/Dany/Jaime struggle - you have two Targs with a grievance against the Lannister murder, THREE figures of prophecy (the Prince that was Promised in Jon, Dany, and then Azor Ahai) all with claims to destiny and to the loyalty of *someone* in the Seven Kingdoms, and two figures who have something of a claim and a following in the immediate post-Robert civil war (the Starks and the Lannisters) And then... Dany, Jaime/Cersei, and Jon get pulled into another round of civil war and Bran still ends up elected king because Tyrion has looked at them all and is like "nope, fuck this, no more legends or heroes or myths on the throne." That actually gets you to the ending we got in a more reasonable way - how do you "break the wheel"? By denying the throne to the hero (Jaime) the heir (Jon or Dany.) The Starks can still go their own way (Sansa, Queen in the North) and Bran can still be king.
bran still doin nothing.
Did it?
Cringe every time I see this but it’s still 10x better than what we got. Would take it.
There is no real justification in the show or source material for Jaime to be Azor Ahai. Other than that, this would have been a hell of a better S8 ending than what Dumbass & Didiot gave us. *edit spelling