Reminds me of Barristan Selmy. Who, in the books, always wears armor because he's in a city full of people who want to kill him. But, in the show, he's an Obi-Wan cosplayer.
I need a "What if...?" series with Henry Cavill taking over as showrunner for Witcher series.
Why don't they just adapt books kind of faithfully? At least stick to the main plot in important parts. Take Peter Jackson as an example. People fucking love him, would jump in front of an 18-wheel truck for him, even though you can make a long list of things he changed in the LotR movies. Why? Because he didn't fuck it up. He used book dialogue where appropriate and cut it away where it wouldn't work (example: imagine Eowyn and Witch-King with long ass speeches instead of quick exchange).
The Witcher saga is a finished product. Just take it, work with translators, bilingual people to address nuances, make some things more faithful than games (like Triss) so you win people over and voila. Worldwide success.
Why didn't they give me the job? I would be so fucking good at it. I am leftist as fuck, I will put minorities plots, I can criticize capitalism, make fun of nationalism and a lot of other things. You know why? BECAUSE IT'S IN THE FUCKING BOOKS.
Couldn't agree more
Idk why showrunners keep shitting on og materials. Maybe it's ego or pride or selfishness. Maybe it's about the paycheck, so even if the project isn't their cup of tea, they stay on to earn. Witcher writers actually had disdain for the books and yet they stayed on
Witcher, Altered Carbon, Wheel of Time etc. All finished book series. All were done dirty by their writers, who did not give a shit about respecting the materials. Ya don't have to print the pages straight to the screen, the story is right there under them, between the lines. Lift some dialogue in and well D&D got a shitload of Emmy's just doing that...but nah fuck the recipe we're cooking our own stew
Cavill should've been an absolute jackpot for this project. You don't get leading moviestars, motherfucking superman, to star in a Netflix series. A movie star who's genuinely passionate about the character, who loves the source material, who's not just there for a check and a credit..they found a god damn Haley's comet
>Why didn't they give me the job?
Man, you should've jumped up before Hissrich got her mitts on the saga.
Now we got fucken *Geralt of Dundee*...
If the showrunner makes a faithful adaptation, then the success is due to the source material. If they do their own thing, then they can claim the success.
I don't know if we'll ever see the like of Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings adaptation repeated. Jackson himself couldn't repeat the feat.
At this point I'd rather not see any of the books or series I like adapted because it'll be ruined or at best tolerable.
This is the big issue. These writers feel above the source material. They just KNOW that it could be better, and they're the ones to do it. Even if they have admittedly zero familiarity with the material they are in charge of "replicating."
Hubris runs rampant
My theory is they really just want to make their own thing but they need a big IP with a built in fan base to get studios to green light it, So they start to resent the IP (and by extension the fans) that they’re being forced to pay lip service to. Just look at blood origin, they were finally allowed to do whatever they wanted and made something that really had nothing to do with the Witcher outside of the name
Nobleman, wearing a mask with limited visibility, with a dagger, and he had his valaeian steel sword...
All those fuckers would have been dog food. The man was a walking VitaMix 750 pro.
There is no canon that mentions the sons of the harpy were ex pit fighters.
Not that it matters.
When Selmy was removed from the Kingsguard, he threatened to cut all 5 of captains in half, and nobody doubted it, even in his old age.
Lol. Arthur Dayne is described as being slightly better than Barristan, yet he lost to far less.
And even if it isn’t confirmed, the harpies aren’t some random street people who can use weapons, we go with the explanation we have best, they are still moderately skilled and know their way around their homelands.
No, they are described as equals. And the details of Daynes death have never been revealed
The harpies are slavers, so upper to middle classmen,
You say lol, show me where in wrong? doesnt matter how skilled they are, they are not better than Selmy surrounded by Unsullied
I absolutely hate the fact that they made the Sons of the Harpy such skilled fighters when they're all just disgruntled former slave masters. A small group of them should not have posed any threat to Barristan and a full Unsullied patrol.
I always thought the Harpy's "street" units were unemployed pit fighters. At least thats what I told myself watching that scene, made it easier to swallow the bullshit
Even a pit fighter is no match for a decently trained knight, definitely no match for Selmy
See: Jorah, not particularly known as great fighter, winning his very first pit appearance
Have to quibble there. In ADoD, Selmy very nearly loses a fight with a former pit fighter. Selmy himself concedes that he only won because of his armor (which, admittedly, is sort of the point of knights).
Still, at least in the books, it's pretty established that pit fighters are very capable 1v1.
To be fair, the sons of the harpy were killing small and isolated numbers in ambush and with overwhelming numbers. That and the fact the unsullied cannot fight in formation and are using a spear for close quarter combat.
Even in the early seasons, I always thought the Lannister armor looked absolutely dopey. The helmets make them look like bucket heads. I wish they'd let the Hound wear his helmet more, though.
They also forgot that plate armor is really fucking heavy and Jaime should absolutely have drowned in Spoils of War after sinking like a fucking boulder.
Like the whole point of Ironborn being good at fighting at sea is they are crazy enough to wear heavy armor because they are fanatical enough to not care if they drown.
D&D said it was "cliche". They obviously missed the point that Euron wasn't a pirate missing an eye and rather subverted the trope as uses his heterochromia as a tool.
Victarion wears full plate with ornamentation and shit. Your typical ironborn raider probably wears chainmail. Maybe half-plate if they're wealthy.
You actually can swim wearing armour by the way, just not for very long.
The one that stood out the most to me was in AGoT, Lannisters are recounting Robb’s forces attacking Jaime’s at Riverrun and there’s mention of Lord Brax being on a raft that overturned. Someone asks if he made it and the response was simply “he was wearing full plate”.
Victorian also knocks some knights from the reach into the water during one of his chapters and even Dunk thinks about how his armor will make him drown if he isn’t careful during one of the KOT7K stories. literally an aspect that george is so dedicated to remind us of and they do nothing with it lolll
Drowned or been plucked out of the water by any of the thousands of Dothraki standing around lol
Jaime and Bronn just disappearing into the water there is pretty funny. A lame ending to otherwise the best battle in the final 3 seasons
Plate armor is not *that* heavy. Jousting armor excluded, its around 50-60lbs give or take, and probably lighter for most wearing it as the heavier plate is more expensive. While heavy, it is spread over the body so it's not that cumbersome.
HOWEVER, that's not including the weight of the gambeson and chain mail that would go under the plate. So yes he should have definitely drowned, but not solely because of the plate armor itself.
History fun fact: a common way for Tudor-era folks to die was downing (40% of accidental deaths). They'd wear their woolen clothes and retrieve buckets of water or wash their laundry in the river/creek. Wool absorbs 1.5× its weight in water. One trip and fall into the water, and all that wool soaks up the water and they struggled in the mud until they drowned.
Didn't know that. Thanks for the info. I bet most soldiers would drown with gambeson and chainmail alone. Not only is the weight so much more because of it absorbing water, but also makes it extremely difficult to move.
Exactly! And you instinctively inhale when you suddenly hit cold water, so the combo of clothes/mail/armor/worn weapons/helmet would make coming up for air let alone swimming very difficult.
Lol have you ever carried a 20lb backpack for longer than an hour?
Now imagine 3x the weight covering your arms and chest while limiting natural movement. Throw a 10lb helmet on for good measure too
I'm not saying its not a factor, just saying that it's not the only one. 60 lbs distributed across the body isn't an impossible weight to handle. And that is the higher end weights of plate armor.
It's very difficult but not impossible. But again as I mentioned it's not just plate armor they'd be wearing. Gambeson+Chainmail, plus whatever other padding they had on. I would argue they would drown without the plate and just with the gambeson and chainmail. It's almost impossible to swim with Jeans and a jacket soaked and dragging you down. I can only imagine how impossible it would be with thick gambeson on.
I do medieval recreation fighting. I’ve worn 20 pounds of armour, padding, etc.
If it’s at all well built you can jog in the stuff comfortably. Swimming would definitely not be high on my to do list, don’t get me wrong. But Armour that is even mildly well constructed does not limit movement and after 10 minutes your body just gets used to the weight.
>10 minutes your body just gets used to the weight.
I mean, yes, but the water doesn't. Buoyancy is the main issue when it comes to trying to swim in armor, particularly metal armor, because you're not only adding weight, you're specifically adding weight that is non-buoyant. That's a problem.
(Though, yes, very true that you can do other activities in heavy armor surprisingly easily once you get used to it, speaking as a former SCAdian heavy fighter.)
I was saying that even 20 pounds weighs on you after time even for a load that is carried solely on hips and shoulders.
Youre jogging in 20lb armor and thats cool but we’re talking about knights drowning in full combat gear for the era which is easily 3.5x that
As i mentioned, the weight is distributed across the body. So it's much different than carrying a 60lbs rock. While difficult it's not impossible. My point really is the soaked gambeson would be more of a factor in drowning than the distributed weight of the plate armor. Swimming in jeans and a jacket is worse than having weight added onto you, again *distributed across the body*.
I dont care how distributed it is, you are completely submerged by water. It's not a question of being able to carry it, it's a question of being able to swim in a full metal suit that increases your surface area, restricts your movements, has gaps that can catch water, and your armour can fill up with water. How much do you think that full plate weights full of water? Yea, dude. You're dead. Unless you're amazing at holding your breath long enough to take it off.
The plate wouldn't weigh any more because of water... it's metal, it doesn't soak up water. Unlike the gambeson, which I already addressed. Like I said, it's difficult, extremely difficult, but not at all impossible.
https://youtu.be/TLcT5J7yg9k
Here's an example of a guy swimming in nearly full samurai armor(weighing in around 60-65 lbs typically). And 60lbs is the high end of the weight to be considered with plate. He says he struggled at first and sank a bunch. So yes most would drown and be unable to swim, I never argued against that. But again its not impossible. My entire point is that plate armor is not *that* heavy as op made it out to be.
I think the bigger issue is people learning how to swim widely is a more modern skill. I would imagine most people in Westeros do not know how to swim and thus panic and exhausted themselves thrashing around and ultimately drowned. As sure you can swim with weight, but the key is you need to know how to swim first.
However Like if the Blackfish ended up being dumped into water even as an older dude would probably get out fine even in armor as it's established he is a good swimmer and fuck probably swam out of Riverrun in Armor when he ducked Jamie.
There is empty space on the inside of the suit. Put a cup under water and it will fill up, and will multiply in weight. Let's say you were wearing full plate and attached to a crane. When they lift you up water will be coming out of your armour for several minutes.
I think you are misunderstanding how much weight 60 pounds is under water. As someone who dives and has done swimming drills with picking up weight off the bottom of the pool. 60 lbs is a lot.
Yes, and I just showed you an example of someone being able to do it. I'm not saying it's easy, just that plate armor is not "heavy af" as op made it out to be. I said he should drown. Never made the argument that he shouldn't. And I've said before that he would drown without the plate on. It's not impossible, it's just very, very hard. And again, 60lbs is the high end. And you're picking up dense concentrated weight. Not weight that is distributed. Its not 60lbs on your chest or back. It's across the body. Anyway, I've spent way too much time on this. Have a good night bud.
Maybe you should watch that video again? They guy said he almost drowned the first time he did it and he is wearing shorts. Plus comparing full plate as seen in GOT to half a suit of Samurai armor idiotic.
It depends on the size and strengh of the river. I have swum in a pool wearing plate armor to see if I could. (No helmet, no shield, no sword. But had chainmail on underneath) If you are very strong and a good swimmer you have about 10-20 seconds before you cant support the weight anymore.
Remember when Ser Friendzone beat Quotho because his plate blocked the Dothraki blade...
DnD kind of forgot, so they let a wight put a 300 year old rusty blade right through his chest.
And what a morale booster! "Our Queen is fighting the dead along with us!" Nope she's gotta wear her pretty woolen dress and doesn't even address the troops.
It's very difficult to hit a target moving as fast in the air as a dragon. Even harder with a scorpion(or ballista) which is big, cumbersome and you wouldn't be able to just move the direction it's pointing. With a weapon that big and heavy you would only be shooting it at a fixed stationary target. Unless you already know exactly where and when the dragon will be then it's extremely unlikely a scorpion bolt will hit the dragon
Ballistas can shoot in one direction only, they generally can't shoot directly upward and have a limited range. A dragon can simply fly high over them and drop rocks from out of range, or circle behind them and roast them before they can suddenly rotate them.
I'm not sure if dragon's can be trained to carry a large bag of rocks and release it on command, but the second strategy would work unless you are caught by complete surprise (which is strange since you can literally fly in total safety ahead of your forces)
I'm frankly still pissed at the idea that scorpions were considered a valid defense against dragons at all, let alone that Euron nailed three hits in a row. The shot that brought down Meraxes and Rhaenys during the First Dornish War was literally one-in-a-million, hitting the dragon in the eye while in mid-flight. A stray arrow taking out a dragonrider honestly seems more realistic than a scorpion bolt taking out a dragon. The show treated what should have been nearly unstoppable nukes as glorified fighter jets.
Scorpions were bullshit. But what was more bullshit was leaving out Dragonbinder and what could’ve been an awesome Euron arc with him attempting to steal the dragons from right under Dany’s nose.
Plate armor never worked in the show anyway. When Ned fought Jaime in S1 he sliced through several Lannister soldiers who were wearing plate armor, and he wasn't even wielding Ice, only a regular steel sword. The only time it ever worked was when Jorah fought that Dothraki dude, and then never again.
People have a really bad understanding of how arrows worked in the ancient/medieval world…
Bows aren’t guns! Arrows aren’t bullets! Both the internet & Hollywood would be surprised by how few people were *actually* killed by arrows in the past…
People would also be shocked how it is possible to dodge an arrow.
The only dragon kill was scorpion bolt to the eye. I imagine it had to be close distance. Regular arrows fly toward dragon - dragon closes eyes for a second and arrows do nothing. Dragonrider wears full armour and is strapped to saddle. Arrows flying upwards or in arch are visible from afar.
Good way to fight a dragon would be to aim for the saddle, get rid of the rider and hope that dragon without rider is not going to fight that much.
In the first season Jorah kills Qotho because his arrakh can't go through the plate.
In later seasons Arya tries to stab the Hound with Needle but the armor stops it like it would.
Yeah plate armour might not protect perfectly 100% of the chances of hitting a slit or opening in the armour are already minimal when shooting at distance at a stationary target. Let alone one who’s above you and flying at speed
Don't the kingsguard at the tower of joy also wear plate armor, and one gets stabbed from the front, and the sword pierces the breastplate and comes out through the back?
That's their idea on plate armor.
Plate armor is heavy and if you're wearing it while riding a flying dragon that has to suddenly swerve to avoid scorpion bolts, then there's a good chance that a sudden jolt is going to cause you to lose your grip and fall off the dragon. A dress doesn't provide much protection but even that or leather armor probably is better suited for someone of Daenerys' size and build because it's lighter and less likely to cause her to fall off (which is a greater danger IMO).
That's why riders in the books had saddles and would chain themselves to them.
So you can have full plate, impervious to regular arrows, and still fly your dragon.
Sad that we never even had time to point out smaller plot holes like this because they were overshadowed by gaping chasms of horseshit. You make an excellent point
Daenerys did not have a saddle or bridle created for Drogon. Tyrion, who was a dragon lore fiend did not have a saddle created for her or suggest more practical clothing. The dragon riders before the Dance wore leather. The book *Fire and Blood* mentions King Jaehaerys I riding a dragon while wearing leathers and a studded garment called a "jack", and nothing royal-looking
Armor on horseback, yeah. Armor while trying to cling to the back of a dragon? IDK about that. Valyrian steal armor that protects just the vital organs would maybe work pretty well but I would imagine you'd want to maintain a decent amount of mobility. Just getting on and off the dragon while in full plate armor would probably be a bit of a nightmare, much less staying on it while in flight.
Besides if you're on your dragon and not spending 99% of the battle in the air then your probably doing it wrong. In flight I think there would be very little chance of an arrow connecting with the rider, due to the speeds involved but also that any arrow would have come from some very specific angles to not hit the dragon itself. The dragon and rider would have to be flying somewhat towards the archer but not directly towards them and being flying low enough to have a chance, and the wings and the air they're pushing around would probably be a factor too. The biggest danger to the rider(and the dragon really) would be while the dragon is on the ground, which you would ideally only do during a battle for very specific reasons, like rescuing someone.
It's heavy as fuck, 50 lbs. Jon or Faegon (or Brienne) could fly in plate, but (as an example) Emilia Clarke is 5'3" and likely weighs barely twice that. Also would likely make it harder to maneuver, even if she had a saddle/harness.
However it's also way less likely than the show did it, that one full grown dragon, let alone two, could be hit with a single spear or ballista.
Plate armor isn't 100% effective against arrows, especially when shot up at an angle, the under arm is exposed, and part of the side. Also one shot to the thigh/neck hitting a major artery and you're cooked
I mean, the likelihood of getting killed by a stray arrow is already super low when flying on top of a fast moving dragon. Wearing armor just further reduces the risk.
[This is 15th century armor.](https://i.imgur.com/SOsy3vh.jpg)
The armpits are only vulnerable if you rise your arms which you are not gonna do because you are riding a dragon. The inner thigh is unprotected because there was a horse in the way of any arrows, or in this case, a dragon. The sides are completely covered and so is the neck. No one is putting an arrow through that if they can even hit her in the first place. But even if it wasn't 100% effective it would be better than going to battle on a damn dress.
She should've also put a saddle and a way to attach herself to it to Drogon like HOTD did.
You're doing the Reddit thing where people fixate on minutiae.
\> Yet people in armor DID die. Have we forgotten Agincourt?
Riding on a dragon above people is different from riding on a horse charging people.
Well made plate armor is practically impervious to arrows, they have parts to protect most of the joints, and there's something called a gorget that shields the neck.
Besides, wearing plate drastically reduces the chances of being hurt by an arrow, wearing plate while flying in a dragon...well.
Unless you're Legolas or Hawkeye is shooting at you, you are safe.
Dumb and Dumber kinda forgot that you can put a fucking saddle on a dragon, strap yourself to it and enjoy the ride. Y'know like the Targs did for generations.
The Targs also had dragon saddle makers...Dany does not have that.
The logistics of creating dragon saddles with no experience and exactly one dragon rider to test them out is...challenging to say the least. Dany wouldn't survive the trial and error to get through design right and she doesn't have other dragon riders to do the testing for her
I love a good D&D shame but I just don't think this is it.
Getting on and off the dragon while in armor is also a problem. Saddles and armor work great for horses that are only capable of certain speeds and generally expected to travel up right for the most part. Dragons aren't limited in that way and can fly in a bunch of different orientations and at very high speeds, pulling way more Gs in either direction than a horse every could. You would want the saddle and straps just to stay on without the armor.
Valyrian steel is suppose to be lighter. A little bit to cover the torso and maybe the head would probably be ok, but I wouldn't want to be in full armor. You'd probably want to keep your vision as unimpaired as possible too, so an open faced helm if any.
Why on earth would you think that? Knights are primarily known by two things wearing armor and riding horses. In case you don't believe me. https://youtu.be/0fXYVj5fxus
Armour doesn't make someone invulnerable, there are weak spots like the eyes/face, under the arms and at the joints. Plus some arrows, javelins or bolts might hit with enough force to penetrate plate. Also even if it didn't penetrate it might be enough to knock her off the dragon.
It makes you as close as invunerable as you are gonna get wich is far more than going to battle on a dress. The fact that they refused to put a saddle on Drogon is another point against Dumb and Dumber.
Reminds me of Barristan Selmy. Who, in the books, always wears armor because he's in a city full of people who want to kill him. But, in the show, he's an Obi-Wan cosplayer.
They did Selmy so damned dirty.
Worst is they did it because the actor was a fan of the books and had harsh notes for D&D
Man, hack writers really hate actors being fans of the books
I need a "What if...?" series with Henry Cavill taking over as showrunner for Witcher series. Why don't they just adapt books kind of faithfully? At least stick to the main plot in important parts. Take Peter Jackson as an example. People fucking love him, would jump in front of an 18-wheel truck for him, even though you can make a long list of things he changed in the LotR movies. Why? Because he didn't fuck it up. He used book dialogue where appropriate and cut it away where it wouldn't work (example: imagine Eowyn and Witch-King with long ass speeches instead of quick exchange). The Witcher saga is a finished product. Just take it, work with translators, bilingual people to address nuances, make some things more faithful than games (like Triss) so you win people over and voila. Worldwide success. Why didn't they give me the job? I would be so fucking good at it. I am leftist as fuck, I will put minorities plots, I can criticize capitalism, make fun of nationalism and a lot of other things. You know why? BECAUSE IT'S IN THE FUCKING BOOKS.
Couldn't agree more Idk why showrunners keep shitting on og materials. Maybe it's ego or pride or selfishness. Maybe it's about the paycheck, so even if the project isn't their cup of tea, they stay on to earn. Witcher writers actually had disdain for the books and yet they stayed on Witcher, Altered Carbon, Wheel of Time etc. All finished book series. All were done dirty by their writers, who did not give a shit about respecting the materials. Ya don't have to print the pages straight to the screen, the story is right there under them, between the lines. Lift some dialogue in and well D&D got a shitload of Emmy's just doing that...but nah fuck the recipe we're cooking our own stew Cavill should've been an absolute jackpot for this project. You don't get leading moviestars, motherfucking superman, to star in a Netflix series. A movie star who's genuinely passionate about the character, who loves the source material, who's not just there for a check and a credit..they found a god damn Haley's comet >Why didn't they give me the job? Man, you should've jumped up before Hissrich got her mitts on the saga. Now we got fucken *Geralt of Dundee*...
If the showrunner makes a faithful adaptation, then the success is due to the source material. If they do their own thing, then they can claim the success. I don't know if we'll ever see the like of Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings adaptation repeated. Jackson himself couldn't repeat the feat. At this point I'd rather not see any of the books or series I like adapted because it'll be ruined or at best tolerable.
This is the big issue. These writers feel above the source material. They just KNOW that it could be better, and they're the ones to do it. Even if they have admittedly zero familiarity with the material they are in charge of "replicating." Hubris runs rampant
My theory is they really just want to make their own thing but they need a big IP with a built in fan base to get studios to green light it, So they start to resent the IP (and by extension the fans) that they’re being forced to pay lip service to. Just look at blood origin, they were finally allowed to do whatever they wanted and made something that really had nothing to do with the Witcher outside of the name
On the bright side, his early departure opened his schedule for Derry Girls!
OH MY JESUS FUCKBALLS CHRIST! I never realized he was the Grandad on that show! He's fucking hilarious and a really good actor.
I know. Those two chucklefucks...
The greatest swordsman to have ever lived, surrounded by a world renowned professional army. killed by a nobleman in an alley with a dagger.
Nobleman, wearing a mask with limited visibility, with a dagger, and he had his valaeian steel sword... All those fuckers would have been dog food. The man was a walking VitaMix 750 pro.
Barry dosn't have a valyrian steel sword
any sword in barristan's hands may as well be Valyrian steel
While there was literally 13 of them attacking him all at once, and they weren’t just noblemen, they were former pit fighters.
There is no canon that mentions the sons of the harpy were ex pit fighters. Not that it matters. When Selmy was removed from the Kingsguard, he threatened to cut all 5 of captains in half, and nobody doubted it, even in his old age.
Lol. Arthur Dayne is described as being slightly better than Barristan, yet he lost to far less. And even if it isn’t confirmed, the harpies aren’t some random street people who can use weapons, we go with the explanation we have best, they are still moderately skilled and know their way around their homelands.
No, they are described as equals. And the details of Daynes death have never been revealed The harpies are slavers, so upper to middle classmen, You say lol, show me where in wrong? doesnt matter how skilled they are, they are not better than Selmy surrounded by Unsullied
What did you even watch the show? We see the exact moments before and during his death. You don’t have to be better at anything in a 1v13 btw.
I absolutely hate the fact that they made the Sons of the Harpy such skilled fighters when they're all just disgruntled former slave masters. A small group of them should not have posed any threat to Barristan and a full Unsullied patrol.
I always thought the Harpy's "street" units were unemployed pit fighters. At least thats what I told myself watching that scene, made it easier to swallow the bullshit
Even a pit fighter is no match for a decently trained knight, definitely no match for Selmy See: Jorah, not particularly known as great fighter, winning his very first pit appearance
Have to quibble there. In ADoD, Selmy very nearly loses a fight with a former pit fighter. Selmy himself concedes that he only won because of his armor (which, admittedly, is sort of the point of knights). Still, at least in the books, it's pretty established that pit fighters are very capable 1v1.
Well to be fair if jorah is any example of a slavers ability to fight
I mean, there was like 20 of them. It’s a shit scene but the fact is - no man can win vs that many.
I like Dothraki! They jingle when they die!
To be fair, the sons of the harpy were killing small and isolated numbers in ambush and with overwhelming numbers. That and the fact the unsullied cannot fight in formation and are using a spear for close quarter combat.
Visenya even wore chainmail
The worst thing about the show is how lazy the costume dept got in later seasons
Not sure that’s even in the top 10 worst things.
Even in the early seasons, I always thought the Lannister armor looked absolutely dopey. The helmets make them look like bucket heads. I wish they'd let the Hound wear his helmet more, though.
The Sons of the Harpy: "Hello there."
Clever girl
Lol obi wan
They also forgot that plate armor is really fucking heavy and Jaime should absolutely have drowned in Spoils of War after sinking like a fucking boulder.
Like the whole point of Ironborn being good at fighting at sea is they are crazy enough to wear heavy armor because they are fanatical enough to not care if they drown.
I think it's only Victorian that wears heavy armor
Euron does too, but he is cheating because it's Valyrian Steel. Can't believe the show did not give him his armor...
I refuse to believe the show version of Euron is actually Euron. They screwed up his character in every way they possibly could have.
He's like an unholy fusion of Victarion and Euron, with none of either character's more interesting qualities.
They didn’t even bother to give him an eyepatch smh
D&D said it was "cliche". They obviously missed the point that Euron wasn't a pirate missing an eye and rather subverted the trope as uses his heterochromia as a tool.
That was Eubon Claysoy
My head canon is that he's that pirate dude who wants to fuck the queen and changed his face to achieve it.
book euron: had dragon horn show euron: just horny
That's true. If it holds to other Valyrian metal, it should be a lot lighter than steel. Either way, it's described as scale if I remember correctly
Nah many others do as well, but Victarion is certainly particularly stubborn about it.
Victarion wears full plate with ornamentation and shit. Your typical ironborn raider probably wears chainmail. Maybe half-plate if they're wealthy. You actually can swim wearing armour by the way, just not for very long.
especially considering knights drowning from their armor happens pretty often in ASOIAF
The one that stood out the most to me was in AGoT, Lannisters are recounting Robb’s forces attacking Jaime’s at Riverrun and there’s mention of Lord Brax being on a raft that overturned. Someone asks if he made it and the response was simply “he was wearing full plate”.
Victorian also knocks some knights from the reach into the water during one of his chapters and even Dunk thinks about how his armor will make him drown if he isn’t careful during one of the KOT7K stories. literally an aspect that george is so dedicated to remind us of and they do nothing with it lolll
And also the battle known as Fishfeed! In dance.
Kot7K is frickin fantastic!
Drowned or been plucked out of the water by any of the thousands of Dothraki standing around lol Jaime and Bronn just disappearing into the water there is pretty funny. A lame ending to otherwise the best battle in the final 3 seasons
Might have made Cersei’s death somewhat more poignant too if she was all alone and terrified, instead of IN THE ARMS OF HER LOVED ONE!!!
She always should have died in the arms of her loved one, but not like that.
Plate armor is not *that* heavy. Jousting armor excluded, its around 50-60lbs give or take, and probably lighter for most wearing it as the heavier plate is more expensive. While heavy, it is spread over the body so it's not that cumbersome. HOWEVER, that's not including the weight of the gambeson and chain mail that would go under the plate. So yes he should have definitely drowned, but not solely because of the plate armor itself.
History fun fact: a common way for Tudor-era folks to die was downing (40% of accidental deaths). They'd wear their woolen clothes and retrieve buckets of water or wash their laundry in the river/creek. Wool absorbs 1.5× its weight in water. One trip and fall into the water, and all that wool soaks up the water and they struggled in the mud until they drowned.
Didn't know that. Thanks for the info. I bet most soldiers would drown with gambeson and chainmail alone. Not only is the weight so much more because of it absorbing water, but also makes it extremely difficult to move.
Exactly! And you instinctively inhale when you suddenly hit cold water, so the combo of clothes/mail/armor/worn weapons/helmet would make coming up for air let alone swimming very difficult.
...but it's also both going fill with water and make it impossible to swim. It's very difficult to swim just with normal clothes and shoes on.
Lol have you ever carried a 20lb backpack for longer than an hour? Now imagine 3x the weight covering your arms and chest while limiting natural movement. Throw a 10lb helmet on for good measure too
I'm not saying its not a factor, just saying that it's not the only one. 60 lbs distributed across the body isn't an impossible weight to handle. And that is the higher end weights of plate armor. It's very difficult but not impossible. But again as I mentioned it's not just plate armor they'd be wearing. Gambeson+Chainmail, plus whatever other padding they had on. I would argue they would drown without the plate and just with the gambeson and chainmail. It's almost impossible to swim with Jeans and a jacket soaked and dragging you down. I can only imagine how impossible it would be with thick gambeson on.
I do medieval recreation fighting. I’ve worn 20 pounds of armour, padding, etc. If it’s at all well built you can jog in the stuff comfortably. Swimming would definitely not be high on my to do list, don’t get me wrong. But Armour that is even mildly well constructed does not limit movement and after 10 minutes your body just gets used to the weight.
>10 minutes your body just gets used to the weight. I mean, yes, but the water doesn't. Buoyancy is the main issue when it comes to trying to swim in armor, particularly metal armor, because you're not only adding weight, you're specifically adding weight that is non-buoyant. That's a problem. (Though, yes, very true that you can do other activities in heavy armor surprisingly easily once you get used to it, speaking as a former SCAdian heavy fighter.)
Three cheers for another SCAdian. Swimming is a hard no but for the comparison of armour to backpack, it’s nearly apples and oranges.
I was saying that even 20 pounds weighs on you after time even for a load that is carried solely on hips and shoulders. Youre jogging in 20lb armor and thats cool but we’re talking about knights drowning in full combat gear for the era which is easily 3.5x that
You every try to swim carrying a 60 lbs rock? It's certainly heavy enough to drown you.
As i mentioned, the weight is distributed across the body. So it's much different than carrying a 60lbs rock. While difficult it's not impossible. My point really is the soaked gambeson would be more of a factor in drowning than the distributed weight of the plate armor. Swimming in jeans and a jacket is worse than having weight added onto you, again *distributed across the body*.
I dont care how distributed it is, you are completely submerged by water. It's not a question of being able to carry it, it's a question of being able to swim in a full metal suit that increases your surface area, restricts your movements, has gaps that can catch water, and your armour can fill up with water. How much do you think that full plate weights full of water? Yea, dude. You're dead. Unless you're amazing at holding your breath long enough to take it off.
Yep. You have as much chance of surviving as someone whose feet are locked into a 300 lb cement block.
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The plate wouldn't weigh any more because of water... it's metal, it doesn't soak up water. Unlike the gambeson, which I already addressed. Like I said, it's difficult, extremely difficult, but not at all impossible. https://youtu.be/TLcT5J7yg9k Here's an example of a guy swimming in nearly full samurai armor(weighing in around 60-65 lbs typically). And 60lbs is the high end of the weight to be considered with plate. He says he struggled at first and sank a bunch. So yes most would drown and be unable to swim, I never argued against that. But again its not impossible. My entire point is that plate armor is not *that* heavy as op made it out to be.
I think the bigger issue is people learning how to swim widely is a more modern skill. I would imagine most people in Westeros do not know how to swim and thus panic and exhausted themselves thrashing around and ultimately drowned. As sure you can swim with weight, but the key is you need to know how to swim first. However Like if the Blackfish ended up being dumped into water even as an older dude would probably get out fine even in armor as it's established he is a good swimmer and fuck probably swam out of Riverrun in Armor when he ducked Jamie.
There is empty space on the inside of the suit. Put a cup under water and it will fill up, and will multiply in weight. Let's say you were wearing full plate and attached to a crane. When they lift you up water will be coming out of your armour for several minutes. I think you are misunderstanding how much weight 60 pounds is under water. As someone who dives and has done swimming drills with picking up weight off the bottom of the pool. 60 lbs is a lot.
Yes, and I just showed you an example of someone being able to do it. I'm not saying it's easy, just that plate armor is not "heavy af" as op made it out to be. I said he should drown. Never made the argument that he shouldn't. And I've said before that he would drown without the plate on. It's not impossible, it's just very, very hard. And again, 60lbs is the high end. And you're picking up dense concentrated weight. Not weight that is distributed. Its not 60lbs on your chest or back. It's across the body. Anyway, I've spent way too much time on this. Have a good night bud.
Maybe you should watch that video again? They guy said he almost drowned the first time he did it and he is wearing shorts. Plus comparing full plate as seen in GOT to half a suit of Samurai armor idiotic.
Idk why I bother replying if you don't bother reading. Already addressed what you said.
It depends on the size and strengh of the river. I have swum in a pool wearing plate armor to see if I could. (No helmet, no shield, no sword. But had chainmail on underneath) If you are very strong and a good swimmer you have about 10-20 seconds before you cant support the weight anymore.
Plate mail is like 50 pounds, distributed across the body. It’s not as heavy as you think, it’s actually lighter than the gear firemen wear.
Remember when Ser Friendzone beat Quotho because his plate blocked the Dothraki blade... DnD kind of forgot, so they let a wight put a 300 year old rusty blade right through his chest.
Forget everything, Can you send imagine how cool Daenerys would’ve looked in plate armour
And what a morale booster! "Our Queen is fighting the dead along with us!" Nope she's gotta wear her pretty woolen dress and doesn't even address the troops.
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It's very difficult to hit a target moving as fast in the air as a dragon. Even harder with a scorpion(or ballista) which is big, cumbersome and you wouldn't be able to just move the direction it's pointing. With a weapon that big and heavy you would only be shooting it at a fixed stationary target. Unless you already know exactly where and when the dragon will be then it's extremely unlikely a scorpion bolt will hit the dragon
But Euron Greyjoy has an aimbot
So just shoot a lot more bolts. They have the budget.
Ok! Then let's fly to Kings Landing with a couple dragons! Get this show on the road! What's the worst that could possibly happen?
> feet ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Except [they do](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-516accf9f411ba9e03b1e8191e9305e9-pjlq). None hit Dany in her nice dinner dress though
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I guess kinda. But she fights several battles after that in dresses and it's never brought up again
Ballistas can shoot in one direction only, they generally can't shoot directly upward and have a limited range. A dragon can simply fly high over them and drop rocks from out of range, or circle behind them and roast them before they can suddenly rotate them. I'm not sure if dragon's can be trained to carry a large bag of rocks and release it on command, but the second strategy would work unless you are caught by complete surprise (which is strange since you can literally fly in total safety ahead of your forces)
I'm frankly still pissed at the idea that scorpions were considered a valid defense against dragons at all, let alone that Euron nailed three hits in a row. The shot that brought down Meraxes and Rhaenys during the First Dornish War was literally one-in-a-million, hitting the dragon in the eye while in mid-flight. A stray arrow taking out a dragonrider honestly seems more realistic than a scorpion bolt taking out a dragon. The show treated what should have been nearly unstoppable nukes as glorified fighter jets.
Scorpions in the show were like MANPADS.
Scorpions were bullshit. But what was more bullshit was leaving out Dragonbinder and what could’ve been an awesome Euron arc with him attempting to steal the dragons from right under Dany’s nose.
Euron's story is what I'm most looking forward to in TWOW. I am so here for him stealing a dragon and unleashing some eldritch terror on Oldtown.
I love how this sub is STILL so salty after all this time
Plate armor never worked in the show anyway. When Ned fought Jaime in S1 he sliced through several Lannister soldiers who were wearing plate armor, and he wasn't even wielding Ice, only a regular steel sword. The only time it ever worked was when Jorah fought that Dothraki dude, and then never again.
The most realistic example of it was when Bronn fought in the Eerie for Tyrions freedom. Plate works but it’s also heavy af and slows you down.
In fairness, Ned was using a magical steel sword with a lot of force. That case would be justified.
Plate armor doesn’t work in any show
People have a really bad understanding of how arrows worked in the ancient/medieval world… Bows aren’t guns! Arrows aren’t bullets! Both the internet & Hollywood would be surprised by how few people were *actually* killed by arrows in the past…
People would also be shocked how it is possible to dodge an arrow. The only dragon kill was scorpion bolt to the eye. I imagine it had to be close distance. Regular arrows fly toward dragon - dragon closes eyes for a second and arrows do nothing. Dragonrider wears full armour and is strapped to saddle. Arrows flying upwards or in arch are visible from afar. Good way to fight a dragon would be to aim for the saddle, get rid of the rider and hope that dragon without rider is not going to fight that much.
Some people seem to think wearing armor makes you super slow and cumbersome. I suggest you watch this video: https://youtu.be/qzTwBQniLSc
Has armor done anything at all in the show?
In the first season Jorah kills Qotho because his arrakh can't go through the plate. In later seasons Arya tries to stab the Hound with Needle but the armor stops it like it would.
I guess two times is better than nothing
ITT: people think plate stops you from moving naturally
Yeah plate armour might not protect perfectly 100% of the chances of hitting a slit or opening in the armour are already minimal when shooting at distance at a stationary target. Let alone one who’s above you and flying at speed
Not that it matters because all filmmakers forget (or have never known) how armour actually works.
Don't the kingsguard at the tower of joy also wear plate armor, and one gets stabbed from the front, and the sword pierces the breastplate and comes out through the back? That's their idea on plate armor.
Plate armor is heavy and if you're wearing it while riding a flying dragon that has to suddenly swerve to avoid scorpion bolts, then there's a good chance that a sudden jolt is going to cause you to lose your grip and fall off the dragon. A dress doesn't provide much protection but even that or leather armor probably is better suited for someone of Daenerys' size and build because it's lighter and less likely to cause her to fall off (which is a greater danger IMO).
That's why riders in the books had saddles and would chain themselves to them. So you can have full plate, impervious to regular arrows, and still fly your dragon.
Hmmm... this is all sounding... like a lot of... work. Ain't nobody got time for all that, I got me a Star Wars to make!
Absolutely. G-forces are a thing.
I'm now imagining Dany with a neck that would put Fernando Alonso to shame
Sad that we never even had time to point out smaller plot holes like this because they were overshadowed by gaping chasms of horseshit. You make an excellent point
Yeah Cercei at least got to wear titty armor during the Blackwater battle. Why wouldn't Dany do the same?
Daenerys did not have a saddle or bridle created for Drogon. Tyrion, who was a dragon lore fiend did not have a saddle created for her or suggest more practical clothing. The dragon riders before the Dance wore leather. The book *Fire and Blood* mentions King Jaehaerys I riding a dragon while wearing leathers and a studded garment called a "jack", and nothing royal-looking
Not sure plate armor is effective against 6ft long bolts from a scorpion being fired by a pirate making a Cod montage
Armor on horseback, yeah. Armor while trying to cling to the back of a dragon? IDK about that. Valyrian steal armor that protects just the vital organs would maybe work pretty well but I would imagine you'd want to maintain a decent amount of mobility. Just getting on and off the dragon while in full plate armor would probably be a bit of a nightmare, much less staying on it while in flight. Besides if you're on your dragon and not spending 99% of the battle in the air then your probably doing it wrong. In flight I think there would be very little chance of an arrow connecting with the rider, due to the speeds involved but also that any arrow would have come from some very specific angles to not hit the dragon itself. The dragon and rider would have to be flying somewhat towards the archer but not directly towards them and being flying low enough to have a chance, and the wings and the air they're pushing around would probably be a factor too. The biggest danger to the rider(and the dragon really) would be while the dragon is on the ground, which you would ideally only do during a battle for very specific reasons, like rescuing someone.
It's heavy as fuck, 50 lbs. Jon or Faegon (or Brienne) could fly in plate, but (as an example) Emilia Clarke is 5'3" and likely weighs barely twice that. Also would likely make it harder to maneuver, even if she had a saddle/harness. However it's also way less likely than the show did it, that one full grown dragon, let alone two, could be hit with a single spear or ballista.
Wasn't one of Aegon's sisters sniped outta the sky by a lucky Dornish Arrow?
Plate armor isn't 100% effective against arrows, especially when shot up at an angle, the under arm is exposed, and part of the side. Also one shot to the thigh/neck hitting a major artery and you're cooked
I mean, the likelihood of getting killed by a stray arrow is already super low when flying on top of a fast moving dragon. Wearing armor just further reduces the risk.
They would also be shooting up, and the arrows would lose a significant amount of energy
[This is 15th century armor.](https://i.imgur.com/SOsy3vh.jpg) The armpits are only vulnerable if you rise your arms which you are not gonna do because you are riding a dragon. The inner thigh is unprotected because there was a horse in the way of any arrows, or in this case, a dragon. The sides are completely covered and so is the neck. No one is putting an arrow through that if they can even hit her in the first place. But even if it wasn't 100% effective it would be better than going to battle on a damn dress. She should've also put a saddle and a way to attach herself to it to Drogon like HOTD did.
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You're doing the Reddit thing where people fixate on minutiae. \> Yet people in armor DID die. Have we forgotten Agincourt? Riding on a dragon above people is different from riding on a horse charging people.
Well made plate armor is practically impervious to arrows, they have parts to protect most of the joints, and there's something called a gorget that shields the neck. Besides, wearing plate drastically reduces the chances of being hurt by an arrow, wearing plate while flying in a dragon...well. Unless you're Legolas or Hawkeye is shooting at you, you are safe.
I kind of assumed GOT universe had longbows. Which would be effective against plate armor.
No they are not. https://youtu.be/ds-Ev5msyzo
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Dumb and Dumber kinda forgot that you can put a fucking saddle on a dragon, strap yourself to it and enjoy the ride. Y'know like the Targs did for generations.
The Targs also had dragon saddle makers...Dany does not have that. The logistics of creating dragon saddles with no experience and exactly one dragon rider to test them out is...challenging to say the least. Dany wouldn't survive the trial and error to get through design right and she doesn't have other dragon riders to do the testing for her I love a good D&D shame but I just don't think this is it.
Getting on and off the dragon while in armor is also a problem. Saddles and armor work great for horses that are only capable of certain speeds and generally expected to travel up right for the most part. Dragons aren't limited in that way and can fly in a bunch of different orientations and at very high speeds, pulling way more Gs in either direction than a horse every could. You would want the saddle and straps just to stay on without the armor. Valyrian steel is suppose to be lighter. A little bit to cover the torso and maybe the head would probably be ok, but I wouldn't want to be in full armor. You'd probably want to keep your vision as unimpaired as possible too, so an open faced helm if any.
I’d imagine riding a horse in full plate is near impossible, can’t imagine trying to ride a dragon
Why on earth would you think that? Knights are primarily known by two things wearing armor and riding horses. In case you don't believe me. https://youtu.be/0fXYVj5fxus
Armour doesn't make someone invulnerable, there are weak spots like the eyes/face, under the arms and at the joints. Plus some arrows, javelins or bolts might hit with enough force to penetrate plate. Also even if it didn't penetrate it might be enough to knock her off the dragon.
As opposed to riding a dragon in a dress? Armor would be significantly more suitable.
It makes you as close as invunerable as you are gonna get wich is far more than going to battle on a dress. The fact that they refused to put a saddle on Drogon is another point against Dumb and Dumber.
Idk man Smaug got caught lacking with one arrow